August 6, 2025 • 46 mins
Secret documents, including never-before-seen photos of Kohberger's victims, may be made public in the near future.
The process for unsealing the records is a lengthy process, and Kohberger's lawyers and the prosecutors will have two weeks to argue whether the items should be released or kept sealed. There are 43 items in the first batch, including photos of each of the deceased victims and a photograph of the six victims together. It is not clear if the pictures were taken before the attacks or after their deaths.
The release of documents will not be random, as the judge says he is reviewing items for unsealing by taking the newest ones first and working backwards. Many documents on the first list are motions about what evidence jurors could be shown at trial, including what witnesses should testify and whether Kohberger could put forth his alternate suspect defense.
Other records pertain to whether items should be kept confidential or are rulings on what would be sealed. The process is expected to take months, as each batch must be reviewed before release.
One of the remaining mysteries is why Kaylee's dog didn't sound an alarm. According to reports, Murphy started acting strangely in the months leading up to Kaylee's murder. Surviving roommate Bethany Funke and Kaylee's ex-boyfriend told similar stories to police about Kaylee seeing a shadowy figure behind the house when she walked Murphy.
Murphy started running away from home and would run to the bushes behind the house and not return when called. Some speculate that Kohberger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would not bark when he entered the home.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocac
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," and featured in hit show "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder and Host: Zone 7; X: @149zone7
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue" (launching soon), and Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
New reports Brian Coburger whining behind bars already as he
plots his appeal.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, plotting his appeal.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Now, remember the whole reason the death penalty was taken.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Off the table is so he wouldn't appeal.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
He's appealing this as Coburger's mommy issues and obsessive hand washing.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Comes to light, according to fellow.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Inmates and tonight, does evidence indicate Coburger had actually been
skulking inside the student's home.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Before the night of the murders? How did he get
in there?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
And we're learning did he actually befriend the pet dog?
Does this explain why the dog didn't bark and raising
an alarm that night?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I'm Nancy Grey. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight
when I talk to you. How is your life right
before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the
crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were
thinking and feeling at this time? Why did you choose
my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else
you did? How does it feel to know the only
(01:25):
thing you filed more miserably at than being a murderer?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Is trying to be a rapper? Tonight, all h e
double l breaking loose.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
As we learn Brian Coburger is plotting an appeal and
lying in wait. Lying in wait is an aggravating circumstance
to seek the death penalty number one, the death penalty
was taken off the table in exchange for Coburger not appealing.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
If you can't wave.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That right, he can appeal a guilty play on any
number of grounds.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So that was a lie.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
But lying in wait? Did he actually get into the
students home before the night of the murders?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
What does this mean? Why do I care?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Because that shows it was premeditated, that he had plans
for a long time actually skulking around in their home
getting the lay of the bedrooms.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Listen, I think that's a legitimate point. The layout of
the house is unique. It was a little bit confusing.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Based on self records, Coberger had been around the home
more than twenty times at night and in the early
morning hours when there was no legitimate reason. During these trips,
Coburger is stalking, surveilling his prey, maybe even went inside
the residence before the night of the murders. The layout
of the house is unique and a little confusing. Important
to note Coberger was able to get in and out
(02:57):
of the house in the dark without any problems.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
We certainly believe that those trips were involved mister Coberger
looking and surveilling or stalking, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Why is he the prosecutor is telling us this now,
that's from our friends at forty eight hours. He should
have told that to a jury while he was seeking
the death penalty. With me an all star penelty make
sense of what we know right now. But first I
want to go straight out to Chris mcdonnaugh. Chris mcdonna,
director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, has worked over
(03:32):
three hundred homicides. You can find him online on the
interview room on YouTube. That's where I found him. Chris,
you and I have scoured the crime scene as much
as we possibly could. I want to break down what
the prosecutor that dumped out of the death penalty is
now saying. It would have been great in an opening statement, right,
(03:54):
but that didn't happen. He's saying that there is evidence
that Brian Coburger went inside the murder scene the home.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Before the night of the murders.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
To get delay of the home, explain to our viewers
and listeners.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
How the house kind of looks.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Like I'm gonna Cheryl maccomy join in in just a moment.
The house looks like there may have been add ons.
Like there's a front door. Can we see a picture
of the King Road to dress please. There's a front
door which kind of looks like an add on. But
then if you turn it around to what we showed
to start with, you see another ad on right there.
(04:36):
A lot of the students came in and out of
that sliding glass door, and it's jigsawed in a way.
It's like a pig path, it's not You walk in
the front door and you have an entrance area and
a living room and to the right of the kitchen
and to the left is the bedrooms.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
No, no, no. Explain why they now believe.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Chris McDonough that Coburger had gone in the home prior.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
To the night of the murders.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
So the prosecutor in this case, Nancy Thompson, is saying
that there was a belief at the time during the
investigation that this house had to have some type of
surveillance and or familiarity to Coburger. They're referencing the twenty
three times that they had the phone pings. But the
(05:28):
layout of this house of you, as you have just explained,
it's a three tier level type of environment. And if
you were to hang out in the back of that
house as you and I have stood, and look directly
into that house, it is a direct shot into Maddie's room.
And if you go down a small embankment, it's a
(05:49):
direct shot into Dylan's room. So you had to have
at some point get into that environment to know directly
where to go.
Speaker 7 (06:00):
I e.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
The third floor up into Maddie's room.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Hold on, Cheryl, I'm
getting right to you. But doctor Bethany Marshall just had
a thought. Bethany Round, psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction,
author of deal Breaker. You can see her now on
Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Doctor Bethany. Sometimes at night when you get up, like
you hear something, or you go to the bathroom or
let the dog out, something like that, you know your
way around in the dark. You don't have to see
because you know the layout. Explain it.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
How does that work? Is at muscle memory? Because that's
what investigators now they're telling us again, should have told
it to a jury when they were seeking the death penalty,
that there was so much premeditation. They believe Coburger actually
went in to the king wrote address and looked around,
sculped around, and got the lay of the land.
Speaker 8 (06:53):
Nancy, it's more than muscle memory. Have you ever gotten
up in the middle of the night and the night
light went out and you bump into the wall by mistake?
You know, all of it, make mistakes, even if we
lived in our house for decades. This guy was preoccupied.
He probably practiced with his eyes closed.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Dancy.
Speaker 8 (07:08):
This was a sexually motivated crime. So let's think about
all of that skulking around as four play. He had
a rich fantasy life. He was thinking about what he
was going to do.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
He was a crime student.
Speaker 8 (07:20):
He already knew that dogs are territorial and that the
dog would bark. This guy practiced, That's what I'm hearing.
It's more than muscle memory. It's so so creepy and
disturbing to know that they were sleeping with that man
in their house.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
You just proved the axiom. Never asked the question. You
don't know the answer to. You don't know what the
witness is going to say. You just said that him's
skulking around the home and stalking it up to twenty
three times. I believe more was four play to him,
(07:57):
I'm going to go out on a limb again and
do it again. Why are you saying that s Coberger's foreplay?
Speaker 8 (08:03):
Well, because the mo of a serial killer is to
inflict maximum damage and cruelty, shed as much blood as possible,
see the fear in the victim's eyes, because they find
it sexually arousing. So what he's doing is skulking around
thinking about how he's going to kill. I think in
(08:24):
his mind six people, and there were only four that
he was able to do before he got out of
the house. But so he's already planning what to him
will be a very sexually exciting event. That's why I
call it for.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Play, Okay, Cheryl McCollum, I'm not going to ask you
about casing the scene equals four play. I'm going on
leave that to Dr Bethany Marshall. Cheryl McCollum is joining us.
She's the founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
She is a forensics.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Expert, and she's the star of a hit podcast, Zone seven.
Cheryl McCollum, can you explain why the theory, the working
theory is Coburger was in that home before and again?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Why do I care?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I'm going to get debate tuned up on this because
it shows lying in weight, which is one of the
aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty, such as mask.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Murder, which is more than one body, that's mass murder,
very often, felony murder such.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
As you commit a crime in the commission of a rape,
you're committing a felony, and you commit a murder, a
murder in the middle of a felony, shooting a police
officer or an elected official, killing somebody behind bars, all
of those are aggravating circumstances under which you seek the
death penalty. Killing for a pecuniary or money interest aggravating
(09:47):
circumstance under which you can seek the death penalty. Lying
in wait is a prime candidate as an ag circumstance
for the dp Okay, if he went in that home.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Ryl that is and wait, planning, Why do you believe, Cheryl,
as I now do, he was in that home before
the murders.
Speaker 7 (10:09):
There's three things that stuck out to me that weren't
a deterrent for him. Number One, the dog. He wasn't
worried about that dog marking or attacking him or anything else.
He wasn't worried that there was another man in that house,
not a deterrent. And the third thing the brand new car.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
There was a.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
Car that was brand new that wasn't there in the past.
He was not deterred that there was somebody in that house.
He didn't know when he entered. He went straight to
his target, which was the third floor.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Cheryl McCollum, that's
a really good point. And I guess we all knew that,
but when you enunciated it, it makes so.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Much more sense. You walk into this home which does
not have a.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Clear path like I was describing earlier, like in modern
modern layouts, why would you know to walk in and
go straight up to the third floor and how to
get there?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Because from what I can tell.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And there's any three day rendition of this, as they
tore the house down. They had to get a three
day rendition and it kind of takes you in and through.
This would have been used at trial if the DA
had the backbone to try the case. See that it's
very circuitous. How would you know to go in and
how to get straight up to the third floor unless
(11:27):
you had been there before.
Speaker 9 (11:29):
And speaking of the dog, listen Keeley's dog, Murphy started
acting strange in the months leading up to Keiley's murderer.
Surviving roommate Bethany Funk and Keeley's ex boyfriend told similar
stories to police about Keylee's seeing a shadowy figure behind
the house when she walked Murphy. Murphy started running away
from home and acting strange.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Murphy ran up to.
Speaker 9 (11:53):
The bushes behind the house and would not return when called.
Some speculate Coberger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would
not bark when he entered the home to kill.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Okay, Cheryl McCollum, If that doesn't run a chill down
your spine, I don't know what will. Because the girls
have stated the survivors that there were several occasions when
they would go outside and Murphy the dog would go
up to the tree line. Hey, can we see that
(12:24):
photo again in your control room, that the dog would
go up to the shree line, to the edge of
the tree line and bark furiously, so Cheryl McCollum. It's
even been speculated that he was there stalking them, steering
into the home with those freaky eyes that we saw
at sentencing, looking at the girls, looking at the layout
(12:48):
of the home, and Murphy hit on him. Some people
even think giving the dog treats to befriend the dog.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Can you imagine the girls.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
They're in the light, as we're saying, right there, that's
a perfect picture for it. They're in the light, they
can't see in the dark, and Coburger's standing out there.
On one of those at least twenty three trips to
the murder scene, the girls come out, they can't see
in the tree line, but the dog can smell Coburger.
Speaker 7 (13:19):
She's sawing.
Speaker 10 (13:20):
She told her boyfriend, she told her roommates, she told
her parents.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
This was not a one time event. And I believe
not only did he drive around in stalk, I think
he parked where you told us you could see into
the house, so well, all he had to do was
wait for her to walk the dog go inside, what
bedroom light does she turn on? He knew exactly what
(13:44):
room to go to, even without entering the home. He
was well prepared. He had planned, he had stalked, he
had researched, He was ready.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Susan Hendrix. Cheryl McCollum is absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
On some occasions, we learned that they couldn't see anything
in the tree line. They didn't understand why the dog
was barking at the trees on those specific occasions when
he didn't do it on other occasions.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But Sheryl's right.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
There was an occasion, guys, Susan Hendrix, investigative journalist, reporter,
author of Down the Heel My Descent to the Double
Murder in Del Fi, who was at the Coburger Senate, saying, Susan,
one of the girls, at least one of them, did
see a shadowy figure in the tree line. They saw
a guy standing in the tree line.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Come on, please, does two and two still equal four?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I'm asking you that Susan not debate, because who else
would it be. They saw a guy stalking them from
the tree line, and they told people about it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Absolutely.
Speaker 11 (14:50):
Kelly told Bethany and in the beginning of the investigation,
we heard whispers about Kelly having a stalker, and I
believe that this was so planned co worker, that he
may even had dog treats to give the dog. I'm
thinking so I believe he stalked at home, and as
you said, knew exactly where to walk, but twenty plus times,
(15:11):
and you're right, I think even more. But think about
it going there, maybe with dog treats. And he looked
at that, I think as an obstacle. Okay, how do
I get in here? I have to befriend the dog.
And I think he did just that, and Kelly was afraid.
One night she was on the phone with her roommates
and said, can you come home? I saw some guy
staring at me. I believe it was Coburger.
Speaker 12 (15:33):
Of the emergency. You don't know what the emergency. What
is the rest of the address. Oh okay, and there's
(15:55):
a house and apartment. Can you repeat theadres to make
that I have it right.
Speaker 7 (16:02):
I'll talk to you guys. We're we live a Delights,
so we're next to them.
Speaker 12 (16:07):
I need someone to repeat the aadress for raification.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
The address one one to two kingdoms? Why was there
a deal?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
How did Brian Coburger escape the death penalty. As late
as last night, victim's family texting me stating, we're hearing
he doesn't even believe in the death penalty. Could that
be true? Do the constituentsy know that? And also one
(16:38):
of the keystones of the deal a deal for Coburger
wasn't a deal for the victims, was that he wouldn't appeal.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Listen, it was our conclusion that straight up guilty, please
as charged, waiver of appeal for closures so we have
accountability and closure with fixed life sentences was the best course.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
The best course, you mean, the easiest course for you.
That was the district attorney that did not take this
case to trial to find out the truth. We're giving
the truth in little drips and dribbles, like the fact
that Coburger may have been in the home stalking it
before the murders. Inside the girls' homes. How many times
(17:24):
do you think he went in there? Did he go
through their underwear drawer, did he smell their perfume? Did
he sit on their bed and have fantasies? You were
just hearing the prosecutor on our friend's show forty eight hours.
But all that is a bill of goods. He can appeal.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Listen, when Brian Coberger took the plea deal that saved
his life, he also agreed to not appeal the decision
in the future, waving his right to appeal. However, defendants
still have the right to post conviction relief even if
they waived their right to a bial issues like ineffective
assistance council, a discovery violation, prosecutorial misconduct, or that he
(18:04):
was pressured into taking the deal.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Wellus honally.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
The lawyer joining me tonight, Philip Debay, high profile lawyer
joining us out of LA has tried a lot of
felony cases. Philip Debay to suggest that Brian Coburger will
not appeal, that's not true. He absolutely can appeal. Look
at Scott Peterson. How many times.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Has this guy appealed.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
It's over and over and over, and he keeps finding
a habeast, then a post conviction relief.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
There's nothing stopping Coburger from appealing.
Speaker 13 (18:40):
Debate.
Speaker 14 (18:41):
Yeah, and that's what the US Supreme Court said, which
is why I don't understand why people throw in that
condition of the plea. Why would you condition a plea
upon waiving all your repellent rights. When the US Supreme
Court chimed in back in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
In Garza versus Idaho.
Speaker 14 (18:58):
Ironically, a plea agreement is basically a contract, and that
you cannot contemplate at the time of the plea. All
constitutional issues, particularly unique to a specific defendant, to rise
to the level of a knowing, intelligent, and voluntary waiver
of those rights. But my response to all that.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Is let him I disagree, and I'll tell you why,
because certain evidentiary issues only arise after the conviction or
the plea. For instance, just off the top of my head,
let's go with Alex Murdog, that sack of crap a
technical legal term. Alex Murdog absolutely murdered his wife, Maggie
(19:43):
and his son Paul, his own son. Why over all
of his millions and millions of dollars of embezzlement from
his clients, one of them a quadriplegic, and it was
all going to come out in Maggie's divorce, Okay, alternative murder,
double murder. Only after after the conviction did the clerk
(20:09):
of the courts publish a book. And it was then
a juror said, Oh, she tried to get me to
play guilty.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Is that true? Don't know, but those are the claims.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So there's no way under our jurisprudence that you can
sign off to issues that you'll never appeal, that you
don't even know about. Impossible. There's no way that Coburger
is not plotting an appeal. No way. Crime stories with
(20:48):
Nancy Grace, p c R. Post conviction relief Lady. Justice
doesn't always care if you had a jury trial or
you play guilty.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
If there is a.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Perceived misdoing, there will be a remedy under the law.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Come on, debate.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Everybody appeals, much less somebody that just got moved to solitary.
Speaker 14 (21:16):
Right course, Well, the distinction between Garza and Coburger is
in Garza, what happened was he kept telling his lawyer,
I want to appeal, and council let the deadline to
file just sort of lapse. And what the High Court
said is no, you are presumptively ineffective under the six
and fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution if you fail to
(21:39):
timely appeal as asked by your client. So let's just
pretend hypothetically that he would have timely appealed. Then what
the court would do is go back, look at the
waiver form, look at the transcript of the plea to
determine if his flea was given knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily.
So again my response is let him because by all accounts,
(22:02):
when you look at the plane language of that transcript,
he answered every question. He didn't hesitate, he didn't stumble,
he didn't stammer. He answered coherently, pithy, terse and.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Cojently straight out to Susan Hendrix joining us investigative journalists
there at the sentencing. Part of the deal that the
DA sold everybody is that there would be no appeal,
that somehow this would be the end of it all.
Speaker 11 (22:32):
That's not true, Nancy, And that is where the frustration was.
And I even saw it during the victim impact statements
and sentencing hearing. I looked over Steve Gongalvez, Kelly's father,
when the prosecutor got up and said almost making excuses
as to why the plea deal happened. I even wrote
in my notes, not the place or time, But I
(22:53):
looked over and I see Steve shaking his head. That
family is still upset that there was a plea dealing
deep down what he had done to their daughter, stabbed
thirty four times, Kaylee. They wanted justice, they wanted the
death penalty, and that was cut off from them too.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Doctor Kindall Crowns joining us renow medical examiner out of
Terent County, that's Fort Worth, Texas. He is a star
of a brand new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue. He
is esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU.
Doctor Kendall Crowns explain the facial wounds.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
That Kiley Gonsolve suffered.
Speaker 15 (23:38):
Certainly so, she has what is described as facial mutilation
to the eyes and nose. And what can be seen
is when someone is stabbing an individual with a heavy
knife is what was supposed to be used. They can
plunge the knife into the facial bones and into the
eyes and into the kind of thinner bones of the
face and crush those bones while they're stabbing into the face.
(24:02):
It takes a large amount of force, but from the descriptions,
it sounds like there's a very bit of cast off
all over the place that he's probably really pounding on
her head with the knife in place causing the sharp
force injuries, and then there's also a description of blood
force injuries which to be caused by a blunt object
that they haven't found yet. It could be caused from
(24:23):
the handle of the knife as well another object at
the scene that hasn't been found that could have been
used to crush her face and pound in her face
and break her skull.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And Mattie Mogan's attack was brutal. I think she sustained
even more stab wounds than Kelly did, although Kelly's were
in the face. What about Mattie's attack, Doctor crowns.
Speaker 15 (24:51):
So Mattie has multiple in sized and stab wounds, plus
penetrating injuries of the lungs and liver. She would have
had to have had multiple stab wounds that go into
her chest cavity, into her abdominal cavity. Probably she's laying
in her bed and being stabbed brutally in the chest
and abdomen. And then she has what are called in
(25:13):
size wounds, which are longer wounds than they are deep,
which can be from the knife being drawn across her
body causing these large, gaping wounds as well.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Cheryl McCollum joining us who investigated this case herself, and
after you hear those injuries and about Ethan being slashed
across his jugular with arterial bleeding, shooting up to the
ceiling and all over the room.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
We took a deal because he wouldn't appeal, and now
he can.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Appeal, Cheryl McCollum. A deal for who.
Speaker 10 (25:52):
If you were ever going to use the death penalty,
it's in this case. You have four young people completely innocent,
had harmed. No one was not involved in anything illegal.
They were in their home, in their beds, and Nancy,
(26:14):
when you describe the injuries, this was not some.
Speaker 7 (26:19):
Real quick from a distance, This was a very violent,
long scene. This was not quick. He took time with
every single victim to ensure that he had killed them.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
She's not.
Speaker 12 (26:56):
Okay, one woman, I'm going to help her going.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
If the world had known the horrific injuries, Killy Glensavas's
face stabbed so many times, she is disfigured and beyond identification.
Speaker 11 (27:22):
Matty Mugen leans to the face Xana Kernodle more than
fifty stab wounds, fifty It's unbelievable.
Speaker 15 (27:29):
He brutalized each and every one.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Of them, and tonight while Coburger is gnashing his teeth
and twisting his tail, plotting his appeal that he swore
he wouldn't launch. We're also learning about his obsessive hand
washing behind bars, and that Coburger has a mummy issue.
(27:51):
Let's start with the hand washing obsession.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (27:54):
Ryan Coberger's hygiene habits reportedly irked other inmates at the
Leita County Jail. They say Coburger washed his hands dozens
of times every day, and the only thing longer than
his showers were his phone calls to his mother. While
Coburger was seen wearing gloves in public and to throw
away his trash in the weeks after the murders. It's
unclear if the convicted quadruple killer is still concerned about
(28:18):
leaving DNA or is a certified germophobe with that in mind.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Two, Doctor Bethany Marshall, that's quite the dichotomy, is it not.
Because this crime scene was so horrific. The students were slaughtered.
They were slaughtered. It was horrible. It's unlike anything you
see on TV or movies. Its smells, it's grimy, it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The victims are lying there, they have been dead for hours.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Bleeding out, but yet the killer obsessively washes his hands.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Explain the dichotomy.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
How can that be that the says of hand washer
left such a horrific crime, saying, well, you see the.
Speaker 8 (29:04):
Thumbs up photo where he's in front of the shower curtain.
It's like he was in a hurry to clean everything off,
as well as his hands. You know, Nancy, he could
have OCD, which is obsessive compulsive disorder, and in that case,
the person has an intrusive thought that they can only.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Neutralize by an act.
Speaker 8 (29:20):
So the thought could be I'm in prison, I'm in
a cage full of feces. It's very dirty here. That's
the intrusive thought. The action is I'm going to take long,
long showers and wash my hands as much as possible
to get off all these germs. So think about the
type of punishment this is for him. I'm not as
upset by the death sentence or the lack of the
(29:41):
death sentence immediately, because I think it's sort of just
tos served to put somebody with OCD in a very
filthy prison with feces all around, where their brain is
just going to fire and fire and fire and tell
them that there are germs all over him. Seems to
be like justice served.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Okay, well you know what, Cheryl McCollum, could you please
respond to Dr Bethany that it's worse to be behind
bars without pure l than it is to get the
death penalty.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
How wrong that is? Hit it.
Speaker 7 (30:17):
If we are going to go by an eye for
an eye, he does not deserve to take another breath.
Speaker 9 (30:24):
Period.
Speaker 7 (30:25):
He took something from these families and their friends that
cannot be replaced. And I'll tell you something. It can't
even be an eye for an eye. It's not equal here.
These children were loved, they were smart, they were beautiful,
they were just about to take off and be whoever
they were destined to be. And he stole that. He
(30:47):
stole graduations, he stole jobs, he stole future marriages, he
stole future children. He deserves the ultimate punishment.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Chris McDonald, I didn't know where she was going on
this as well. The skulking in the home equals sexual foreplay.
I got that bomb dropped onmmy. Now, doctor Bethany is
saying that for Coburger, being behind bars with that purel
is worse than the death penalty. Could you please respond
(31:18):
to her.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
You know, so, let's put ourselves into that room just
for a moment. The very first thing you will recognize
immediately is the silence in that room. The second thing
you will recognize is the cast off and the amount
of rage and horror that took place. The third thing
(31:39):
you will recognize is imagining this person who's caused playing
Ted Bundy Hey in the backyard, and then he's in
your room almost immediately as the helper to brutally kill you.
(31:59):
This is what these victims saw, specifically Kaylee and Maddie.
They experienced it first. It's horrific.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, you know. To doctor Bethony Marshall,
I'm thinking through all of his amenities at his new digs,
there's really nothing stopping him. Since he's got use of
a tablet, he has cable, he has money to fund
(32:35):
his iPad.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I don't think anything is.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Precluding him from ordering Netflix or Prime or Showtime or
anything else. When he's tired of reliving the murders, he.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Can just hop on to one of the pay channels.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
I mean, this is wrong, No wonder the Gonsalvast family
was so angry about the deal.
Speaker 8 (33:00):
And you know what else he's going to have access to, Nancy,
psychotropic medication. And what that means is that not only
will he get tired of his fantasies, but then he'll
have pay television, the iPad, whatever else he wants, Nancy,
is that there will be expert psychiatric care. Because OCD
is very biologically motivated. So all those scary thoughts, anxious thoughts,
(33:22):
they're going to calm down and he's going to be
in better shape that he's been in a long long time.
And let's say he's watching next Fit, Netflix or pay
per view television. Even just looking at a woman is
going to get him excited. He can make mountains out
of a molehill, Nancy. So this is all kinds of
material that somebody who is a sexual sadist should not
(33:46):
have access to.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
We are also learning about Ryan Coberger's mommy issues.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Listen, Goberger lost his temper at another inmate who he
believed was insulting his mother. According to a police report
detailing in counts, Coberger was on a video call with
his mother when a fellow in May yelled, you suck
at a television screen while watching sports. Coberger assuming the
insult was directed at him or his mother aggressively approached
to the inmate and question if the comments were aimed
(34:15):
at them. The situation was resolved quickly after the two
inmates discussed the misunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
So Coberger has a physical altercation with another inmate on
the misperception. The inmate commented about his mother, Okay, mommy
issues out the ying yang Bethany.
Speaker 8 (34:33):
You know, I think what's interesting about murderers is that
they often see their mothers as pristine, as a source
of comfort.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
You know, when.
Speaker 8 (34:42):
Inmates escape from jail, as you once said, where do
you find them? Hiding in mommy's house? That's always where
they go.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And I think it's.
Speaker 8 (34:50):
Because that early, early attachment makes them believe that that
person will never ever turn away from them, that there
will always be comfort and care. But you know what,
it's not always true, Nancy. Sometimes these mothers, just like
Casey Anthony's mom, they're onto their child after a while
and that comfort and care is withdrawn.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And that may just happen to Brian Coberger. He was
on a faceheime rzi with his mother. If he can
do that, what's next?
Speaker 8 (35:19):
OnlyFans if he has access to his mother Nancy, he
can gain access to whatever he wants.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
And we know that men.
Speaker 8 (35:28):
Who think like this need very little material to spark
their sexual fantasies. That's what I am worried about. And
we know that sex offenders, in particular, when they get
out of jail, which Brian Coberg Coworger never will, they
are angrier, more aroused, and more ready to offend than ever.
(35:51):
So in some ways, he's being given his own version
of pornography to respond to. It may not mean anything
to anybody else, but in his fantasy life, it will
mean a lot to him.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
The stabs so deep, her liver is lacerated, stabbed thirty times.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
So many stab worms, so many stab wounds, a lacerated liver.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Nearly every study of serial killers includes the keeping of trophies. Trophies,
whether it's a victim's jewelry, whether it's a driver's license,
whether it's underwear or a garment, a piece of clothing,
a photo. It's very, very In fact, it's predictable that
(36:40):
a killer keeps a trophy. Like you and I would
keep ticket stubs to a concert or a photo album.
They keep memento souvenirs of their murders.
Speaker 13 (36:54):
Listen, Coberger captain trophies from women he knew, including two
ID type cards belonging to women he knew years before
the murders. One belonged to a woman he worked with
at the Pleasant Valley School District when he was a
security guard at the school. There's no way of knowing
how he got the IDs, how long he had them,
or what he planned to do with them.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Chris McDonald joining me, founder director of.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
The Cole Case Foundation, and you can find him now
on the interview room on YouTube. Chris mcdonna very often
when you process a crime, saying, you see all sorts
of things, but you don't realize their significance. But now
we see that Coburger kept trophies.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
He kept these ideas of.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Women that are alive. Thank Heaven that he knew years ago.
Why and when you go to a crime saying, you
don't always realize what you've got. You don't realize that's
a trophy from some other incident.
Speaker 6 (37:53):
Yeah, And when you start thinking about that at length financy,
you realize the the statistic fantasy that was playing out
here in this particular case, there are two identification cards
from gals that he apparently had contact with way prior
(38:13):
to the homicides. But what it does tell us is
it gives us an insight into his fantasy based plan
that the reason these individuals take those types of items
is to relive the events and they transfer that into
this sexual you know, play that they believe is going
(38:38):
on in their heads. And you know, the doc can
tell us a lot deeper about why that is.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yes, Susan Henricks, before I get a shrink in on this,
what do we know about the women whose IDs he had?
And what we're talking about? To start that Q and
A is when you look at his apartment, but you
may see trophies that you don't even realize are trophies.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
It could be.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
A scarf, it could be a pair of socks, it
could be anything that reminds him of a particular woman.
Speaker 16 (39:17):
Absolutely, and the id's that he did take. Investigators in
the beginning went to those women and they said, we
know who he is. He was never any threat. I
think maybe this was a drive run. How sneaky do
you have to be to get someone's ID? Did you
break into their house? Did you steal their wallet? How'd
you get it? He's sneaky. That tells me that he
(39:37):
was in that house, like you said earlier, during the party,
getting to know Kayley's doll. All of this to me said,
Oh he put those women's IDs?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
How how is the question?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know, it's freaky, Doctor Bethany what Susan Hendricks just
said about him going to the home maybe during a party,
maybe skulking around on his own and like sniffing their pillowcase.
But what she said about how did he get these
other women's IDs? Did he pilfer through their pocketbook? Did
(40:10):
he stick his nose in their purse and smell it?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
What else?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Did he take their lipstick, their perfume, their comb? But
just imagine Coburger going room to room when I guess
nobody was there, looking around, figuring out the layout, picking
up their items, looking at them.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
You know, he smelled them. I don't know what were
just fealing If.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
He did so, I don't know what that means. I
just know that it happens. You can explain what it
all means.
Speaker 8 (40:44):
Well, of course, smelling the underwear and putting on the
lipstick like b t K Killer. Remember he dressed himself
up in women's stockings, and clothing. It's like inhabiting the
victim in fantasy, having sex with the victim, gaining proximity
to the victim, Nancy. We would all be naive to
think that the murder victims are the only people he stalked.
(41:04):
That's one thing. But I think what's fascinating is the
ID cards as opposed to women's underwear, because what that
tells me is you cannot pursue or identify somebody through
their underwear. There's no social Security number on it, there's
no telephone number or address. But once you have someone's ID,
you can track them, Nancy. So this is akin to
(41:27):
like somebody's book reading list. You know, it's the next
book he's going to check out at the library. Or
with some of my patients who are sex addicts, they're
porn cash on their computers. It's the next video they're
going to look at. So this tells me that sniffying
women's underwear was simply not enough. He had graduated. He
was graduating to collecting IDs to id future victims.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
You know another thing about did you get into the home?
How did he get those IDs from the other women?
What other trophies are in his apartment that we don't
even know, we can't identify that they are trophies. But
he got those.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
IDs from those women, and they don't know how he
got them. And it's leading me back to another intrusion,
and that Susan Hendrix is from a female colleague he
had where he offered to help her.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Those words echo in my mind because he said that
to one of the murder victims. I'm here to help you.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
He offered to help the female colleague set up her
WiFi in her home, but he set it up so
he could spy on her in all the rooms in
her home, watching her watch TV, changing clothes in her bedroom,
walking naked into her kitchen to turn on the coffee pot.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
He helped her too, didn't he.
Speaker 16 (42:45):
Yeah, And she felt uneasy. She felt like someone was
watching her or following her. So she went to Coburger, thinking, Hey,
the man he can help you set it up, when
it was actually I believed him making her feel uncomfortable
and he's the guy that's going to show which means
more access to this woman. You're absolutely right when saying
(43:05):
no way, are the women in that home who are
really murdered by this manner? The first women that he
has stopped or followed.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
No way, Philip Gibei. It's the same thing over and
over and over again. When you don't know what he's
going to do, look at what he's already done. Again,
when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
We know he had these trophies from these other two women,
and they can't explain how he got them. Their ideas, pocketbook,
(43:35):
home workstation. Nobody knows. We know he got into his
female coworkers' home to help her set up her WiFi
and her nanny cams that she had in her home,
her surveillance so he could watch her.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
He could get into her home. So what does that
tell me? He did get into this.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Home to stalk them and get the lay of the land,
which goes to lying in white and seeking the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Do you ever wish your client would surprise you?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
But no, they do the same thing over and over
and over again, just like cobragrams.
Speaker 14 (44:10):
I'm not feeling that in this case. I don't think
that the theft of those two ID cards was sexually
motivated in any way, shape or form. And I'm telling
you this is just based on decades of working in
the justice system. What I am seeing is the dawning
days of the gateway crime, namely petty theft, just stealing
(44:31):
two identity or ID cards as a crime of opportunity
that could eventually lead to bigger and greater crimes, and
the fact that he was able to pull it off
gave him a thirst to commit greater offenses. But I
don't think the theft of those two cards was sexually motivated.
Maybe at most he was going to commit identity theft
with them.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Are you a shrink? No, you're not.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Bethany is a shrink, all right, she's a psychoanalyst.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
And I didn't ask you a strinth question.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
I asked you about defendants that keep doing the same
thing over and over and over.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Doctor Bethany.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Really two women that he works with that somehow he
gets in their home their workstation or their pocketbook or
their car, and Pilfer's around and steals IDs that he
keeps for years. And Dubey says, it's not sexually motivated,
it's about petty theft.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Okay, well, you know what, drop the mic.
Speaker 8 (45:31):
Well, this shows me the amount of the preoccupation that
he has. And it's not just a preoccupation with sex
or stalking or anything like that. It's a preoccupation with
inflicting maximum harm in order to enhance sexual arousal. He
is a statist. He's also a voyeur because now he's
(45:51):
spying on this woman and he's stalking, because it's a
part of victim selection. Think about what we know about
serial killers. Sometimes they'll from city to city, or neighborhood
to neighborhood, or jump on the railway or whatever, or
spend a lot of time online because they're looking for
the perfect victim, maybe like you and I looking for
a Michel unrated restaurant. You know, we'll just want the
(46:14):
best meal on our vacation or something like that. So
these all these people, all these women were in his sights.
The male victim was slashed, you know, his throat was slashed,
but the women were stabbed repeatedly. And I had the
same thought doctor Kendall Crown is that he was wanting
to get the guy out of the way because the
(46:34):
women were his object of sexual interest.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Will Brian Coiberger appeal. I'll put money on it. But
as we wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off,
goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
New reports Brian Coburger whining behind bars already as he
plots his appeal.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, plotting his appeal.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Now, remember the whole reason the death penalty was taken.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Off the table is so he wouldn't appeal.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
He's appealing this as Coburger's mommy issues and obsessive hand washing.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Comes to light, according to fellow.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Inmates and tonight, does evidence indicate Coburger had actually been
skulking inside the student's home.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Before the night of the murders? How did he get
in there?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
And we're learning did he actually befriend the pet dog?
Does this explain why the dog didn't bark and raising
an alarm that night?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I'm Nancy Grey. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight
when I talk to you. How is your life right
before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the
crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were
thinking and feeling at this time? Why did you choose
my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else
you did? How does it feel to know the only
(01:25):
thing you filed more miserably at than being a murderer?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Is trying to be a rapper? Tonight, all h e
double l breaking loose.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
As we learn Brian Coburger is plotting an appeal and
lying in wait. Lying in wait is an aggravating circumstance
to seek the death penalty number one, the death penalty
was taken off the table in exchange for Coburger not appealing.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
If you can't wave.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That right, he can appeal a guilty play on any
number of grounds.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So that was a lie.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
But lying in wait? Did he actually get into the
students home before the night of the murders?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
What does this mean? Why do I care?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Because that shows it was premeditated, that he had plans
for a long time actually skulking around in their home
getting the lay of the bedrooms.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Listen, I think that's a legitimate point. The layout of
the house is unique. It was a little bit confusing.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Based on self records, Coberger had been around the home
more than twenty times at night and in the early
morning hours when there was no legitimate reason. During these trips,
Coburger is stalking, surveilling his prey, maybe even went inside
the residence before the night of the murders. The layout
of the house is unique and a little confusing. Important
to note Coberger was able to get in and out
(02:57):
of the house in the dark without any problems.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
We certainly believe that those trips were involved mister Coberger
looking and surveilling or stalking, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Why is he the prosecutor is telling us this now,
that's from our friends at forty eight hours. He should
have told that to a jury while he was seeking
the death penalty. With me an all star penelty make
sense of what we know right now. But first I
want to go straight out to Chris mcdonnaugh. Chris mcdonna,
director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, has worked over
(03:32):
three hundred homicides. You can find him online on the
interview room on YouTube. That's where I found him. Chris,
you and I have scoured the crime scene as much
as we possibly could. I want to break down what
the prosecutor that dumped out of the death penalty is
now saying. It would have been great in an opening statement, right,
(03:54):
but that didn't happen. He's saying that there is evidence
that Brian Coburger went inside the murder scene the home.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Before the night of the murders.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
To get delay of the home, explain to our viewers
and listeners.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
How the house kind of looks.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Like I'm gonna Cheryl maccomy join in in just a moment.
The house looks like there may have been add ons.
Like there's a front door. Can we see a picture
of the King Road to dress please. There's a front
door which kind of looks like an add on. But
then if you turn it around to what we showed
to start with, you see another ad on right there.
(04:36):
A lot of the students came in and out of
that sliding glass door, and it's jigsawed in a way.
It's like a pig path, it's not You walk in
the front door and you have an entrance area and
a living room and to the right of the kitchen
and to the left is the bedrooms.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
No, no, no. Explain why they now believe.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Chris McDonough that Coburger had gone in the home prior.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
To the night of the murders.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
So the prosecutor in this case, Nancy Thompson, is saying
that there was a belief at the time during the
investigation that this house had to have some type of
surveillance and or familiarity to Coburger. They're referencing the twenty
three times that they had the phone pings. But the
(05:28):
layout of this house of you, as you have just explained,
it's a three tier level type of environment. And if
you were to hang out in the back of that
house as you and I have stood, and look directly
into that house, it is a direct shot into Maddie's room.
And if you go down a small embankment, it's a
(05:49):
direct shot into Dylan's room. So you had to have
at some point get into that environment to know directly
where to go.
Speaker 7 (06:00):
I e.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
The third floor up into Maddie's room.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Hold on, Cheryl, I'm
getting right to you. But doctor Bethany Marshall just had
a thought. Bethany Round, psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction,
author of deal Breaker. You can see her now on
Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Doctor Bethany. Sometimes at night when you get up, like
you hear something, or you go to the bathroom or
let the dog out, something like that, you know your
way around in the dark. You don't have to see
because you know the layout. Explain it.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
How does that work? Is at muscle memory? Because that's
what investigators now they're telling us again, should have told
it to a jury when they were seeking the death penalty,
that there was so much premeditation. They believe Coburger actually
went in to the king wrote address and looked around,
sculped around, and got the lay of the land.
Speaker 8 (06:53):
Nancy, it's more than muscle memory. Have you ever gotten
up in the middle of the night and the night
light went out and you bump into the wall by mistake?
You know, all of it, make mistakes, even if we
lived in our house for decades. This guy was preoccupied.
He probably practiced with his eyes closed.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Dancy.
Speaker 8 (07:08):
This was a sexually motivated crime. So let's think about
all of that skulking around as four play. He had
a rich fantasy life. He was thinking about what he
was going to do.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
He was a crime student.
Speaker 8 (07:20):
He already knew that dogs are territorial and that the
dog would bark. This guy practiced, That's what I'm hearing.
It's more than muscle memory. It's so so creepy and
disturbing to know that they were sleeping with that man
in their house.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
You just proved the axiom. Never asked the question. You
don't know the answer to. You don't know what the
witness is going to say. You just said that him's
skulking around the home and stalking it up to twenty
three times. I believe more was four play to him,
(07:57):
I'm going to go out on a limb again and
do it again. Why are you saying that s Coberger's foreplay?
Speaker 8 (08:03):
Well, because the mo of a serial killer is to
inflict maximum damage and cruelty, shed as much blood as possible,
see the fear in the victim's eyes, because they find
it sexually arousing. So what he's doing is skulking around
thinking about how he's going to kill. I think in
(08:24):
his mind six people, and there were only four that
he was able to do before he got out of
the house. But so he's already planning what to him
will be a very sexually exciting event. That's why I
call it for.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Play, Okay, Cheryl McCollum, I'm not going to ask you
about casing the scene equals four play. I'm going on
leave that to Dr Bethany Marshall. Cheryl McCollum is joining us.
She's the founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
She is a forensics.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Expert, and she's the star of a hit podcast, Zone seven.
Cheryl McCollum, can you explain why the theory, the working
theory is Coburger was in that home before and again?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Why do I care?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I'm going to get debate tuned up on this because
it shows lying in weight, which is one of the
aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty, such as mask.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Murder, which is more than one body, that's mass murder,
very often, felony murder such.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
As you commit a crime in the commission of a rape,
you're committing a felony, and you commit a murder, a
murder in the middle of a felony, shooting a police
officer or an elected official, killing somebody behind bars, all
of those are aggravating circumstances under which you seek the
death penalty. Killing for a pecuniary or money interest aggravating
(09:47):
circumstance under which you can seek the death penalty. Lying
in wait is a prime candidate as an ag circumstance
for the dp Okay, if he went in that home.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Ryl that is and wait, planning, Why do you believe, Cheryl,
as I now do, he was in that home before
the murders.
Speaker 7 (10:09):
There's three things that stuck out to me that weren't
a deterrent for him. Number One, the dog. He wasn't
worried about that dog marking or attacking him or anything else.
He wasn't worried that there was another man in that house,
not a deterrent. And the third thing the brand new car.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
There was a.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
Car that was brand new that wasn't there in the past.
He was not deterred that there was somebody in that house.
He didn't know when he entered. He went straight to
his target, which was the third floor.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Cheryl McCollum, that's
a really good point. And I guess we all knew that,
but when you enunciated it, it makes so.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Much more sense. You walk into this home which does
not have a.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Clear path like I was describing earlier, like in modern
modern layouts, why would you know to walk in and
go straight up to the third floor and how to
get there?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Because from what I can tell.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And there's any three day rendition of this, as they
tore the house down. They had to get a three
day rendition and it kind of takes you in and through.
This would have been used at trial if the DA
had the backbone to try the case. See that it's
very circuitous. How would you know to go in and
how to get straight up to the third floor unless
(11:27):
you had been there before.
Speaker 9 (11:29):
And speaking of the dog, listen Keeley's dog, Murphy started
acting strange in the months leading up to Keiley's murderer.
Surviving roommate Bethany Funk and Keeley's ex boyfriend told similar
stories to police about Keylee's seeing a shadowy figure behind
the house when she walked Murphy. Murphy started running away
from home and acting strange.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Murphy ran up to.
Speaker 9 (11:53):
The bushes behind the house and would not return when called.
Some speculate Coberger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would
not bark when he entered the home to kill.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Okay, Cheryl McCollum, If that doesn't run a chill down
your spine, I don't know what will. Because the girls
have stated the survivors that there were several occasions when
they would go outside and Murphy the dog would go
up to the tree line. Hey, can we see that
(12:24):
photo again in your control room, that the dog would
go up to the shree line, to the edge of
the tree line and bark furiously, so Cheryl McCollum. It's
even been speculated that he was there stalking them, steering
into the home with those freaky eyes that we saw
at sentencing, looking at the girls, looking at the layout
(12:48):
of the home, and Murphy hit on him. Some people
even think giving the dog treats to befriend the dog.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Can you imagine the girls.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
They're in the light, as we're saying, right there, that's
a perfect picture for it. They're in the light, they
can't see in the dark, and Coburger's standing out there.
On one of those at least twenty three trips to
the murder scene, the girls come out, they can't see
in the tree line, but the dog can smell Coburger.
Speaker 7 (13:19):
She's sawing.
Speaker 10 (13:20):
She told her boyfriend, she told her roommates, she told
her parents.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
This was not a one time event. And I believe
not only did he drive around in stalk, I think
he parked where you told us you could see into
the house, so well, all he had to do was
wait for her to walk the dog go inside, what
bedroom light does she turn on? He knew exactly what
(13:44):
room to go to, even without entering the home. He
was well prepared. He had planned, he had stalked, he
had researched, He was ready.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Susan Hendrix. Cheryl McCollum is absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
On some occasions, we learned that they couldn't see anything
in the tree line. They didn't understand why the dog
was barking at the trees on those specific occasions when
he didn't do it on other occasions.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But Sheryl's right.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
There was an occasion, guys, Susan Hendrix, investigative journalist, reporter,
author of Down the Heel My Descent to the Double
Murder in Del Fi, who was at the Coburger Senate, saying, Susan,
one of the girls, at least one of them, did
see a shadowy figure in the tree line. They saw
a guy standing in the tree line.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Come on, please, does two and two still equal four?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I'm asking you that Susan not debate, because who else
would it be. They saw a guy stalking them from
the tree line, and they told people about it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Absolutely.
Speaker 11 (14:50):
Kelly told Bethany and in the beginning of the investigation,
we heard whispers about Kelly having a stalker, and I
believe that this was so planned co worker, that he
may even had dog treats to give the dog. I'm
thinking so I believe he stalked at home, and as
you said, knew exactly where to walk, but twenty plus times,
(15:11):
and you're right, I think even more. But think about
it going there, maybe with dog treats. And he looked
at that, I think as an obstacle. Okay, how do
I get in here? I have to befriend the dog.
And I think he did just that, and Kelly was afraid.
One night she was on the phone with her roommates
and said, can you come home? I saw some guy
staring at me. I believe it was Coburger.
Speaker 12 (15:33):
Of the emergency. You don't know what the emergency. What
is the rest of the address. Oh okay, and there's
(15:55):
a house and apartment. Can you repeat theadres to make
that I have it right.
Speaker 7 (16:02):
I'll talk to you guys. We're we live a Delights,
so we're next to them.
Speaker 12 (16:07):
I need someone to repeat the aadress for raification.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
The address one one to two kingdoms? Why was there
a deal?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
How did Brian Coburger escape the death penalty. As late
as last night, victim's family texting me stating, we're hearing
he doesn't even believe in the death penalty. Could that
be true? Do the constituentsy know that? And also one
(16:38):
of the keystones of the deal a deal for Coburger
wasn't a deal for the victims, was that he wouldn't appeal.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Listen, it was our conclusion that straight up guilty, please
as charged, waiver of appeal for closures so we have
accountability and closure with fixed life sentences was the best course.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
The best course, you mean, the easiest course for you.
That was the district attorney that did not take this
case to trial to find out the truth. We're giving
the truth in little drips and dribbles, like the fact
that Coburger may have been in the home stalking it
before the murders. Inside the girls' homes. How many times
(17:24):
do you think he went in there? Did he go
through their underwear drawer, did he smell their perfume? Did
he sit on their bed and have fantasies? You were
just hearing the prosecutor on our friend's show forty eight hours.
But all that is a bill of goods. He can appeal.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
Listen, when Brian Coberger took the plea deal that saved
his life, he also agreed to not appeal the decision
in the future, waving his right to appeal. However, defendants
still have the right to post conviction relief even if
they waived their right to a bial issues like ineffective
assistance council, a discovery violation, prosecutorial misconduct, or that he
(18:04):
was pressured into taking the deal.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Wellus honally.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
The lawyer joining me tonight, Philip Debay, high profile lawyer
joining us out of LA has tried a lot of
felony cases. Philip Debay to suggest that Brian Coburger will
not appeal, that's not true. He absolutely can appeal. Look
at Scott Peterson. How many times.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Has this guy appealed.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
It's over and over and over, and he keeps finding
a habeast, then a post conviction relief.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
There's nothing stopping Coburger from appealing.
Speaker 13 (18:40):
Debate.
Speaker 14 (18:41):
Yeah, and that's what the US Supreme Court said, which
is why I don't understand why people throw in that
condition of the plea. Why would you condition a plea
upon waiving all your repellent rights. When the US Supreme
Court chimed in back in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
In Garza versus Idaho.
Speaker 14 (18:58):
Ironically, a plea agreement is basically a contract, and that
you cannot contemplate at the time of the plea. All
constitutional issues, particularly unique to a specific defendant, to rise
to the level of a knowing, intelligent, and voluntary waiver
of those rights. But my response to all that.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Is let him I disagree, and I'll tell you why,
because certain evidentiary issues only arise after the conviction or
the plea. For instance, just off the top of my head,
let's go with Alex Murdog, that sack of crap a
technical legal term. Alex Murdog absolutely murdered his wife, Maggie
(19:43):
and his son Paul, his own son. Why over all
of his millions and millions of dollars of embezzlement from
his clients, one of them a quadriplegic, and it was
all going to come out in Maggie's divorce, Okay, alternative murder,
double murder. Only after after the conviction did the clerk
(20:09):
of the courts publish a book. And it was then
a juror said, Oh, she tried to get me to
play guilty.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Is that true? Don't know, but those are the claims.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So there's no way under our jurisprudence that you can
sign off to issues that you'll never appeal, that you
don't even know about. Impossible. There's no way that Coburger
is not plotting an appeal. No way. Crime stories with
(20:48):
Nancy Grace, p c R. Post conviction relief Lady. Justice
doesn't always care if you had a jury trial or
you play guilty.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
If there is a.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Perceived misdoing, there will be a remedy under the law.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Come on, debate.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Everybody appeals, much less somebody that just got moved to solitary.
Speaker 14 (21:16):
Right course, Well, the distinction between Garza and Coburger is
in Garza, what happened was he kept telling his lawyer,
I want to appeal, and council let the deadline to
file just sort of lapse. And what the High Court
said is no, you are presumptively ineffective under the six
and fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution if you fail to
(21:39):
timely appeal as asked by your client. So let's just
pretend hypothetically that he would have timely appealed. Then what
the court would do is go back, look at the
waiver form, look at the transcript of the plea to
determine if his flea was given knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily.
So again my response is let him because by all accounts,
(22:02):
when you look at the plane language of that transcript,
he answered every question. He didn't hesitate, he didn't stumble,
he didn't stammer. He answered coherently, pithy, terse and.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Cojently straight out to Susan Hendrix joining us investigative journalists
there at the sentencing. Part of the deal that the
DA sold everybody is that there would be no appeal,
that somehow this would be the end of it all.
Speaker 11 (22:32):
That's not true, Nancy, And that is where the frustration was.
And I even saw it during the victim impact statements
and sentencing hearing. I looked over Steve Gongalvez, Kelly's father,
when the prosecutor got up and said almost making excuses
as to why the plea deal happened. I even wrote
in my notes, not the place or time, But I
(22:53):
looked over and I see Steve shaking his head. That
family is still upset that there was a plea dealing
deep down what he had done to their daughter, stabbed
thirty four times, Kaylee. They wanted justice, they wanted the
death penalty, and that was cut off from them too.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Doctor Kindall Crowns joining us renow medical examiner out of
Terent County, that's Fort Worth, Texas. He is a star
of a brand new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue. He
is esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU.
Doctor Kendall Crowns explain the facial wounds.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
That Kiley Gonsolve suffered.
Speaker 15 (23:38):
Certainly so, she has what is described as facial mutilation
to the eyes and nose. And what can be seen
is when someone is stabbing an individual with a heavy
knife is what was supposed to be used. They can
plunge the knife into the facial bones and into the
eyes and into the kind of thinner bones of the
face and crush those bones while they're stabbing into the face.
(24:02):
It takes a large amount of force, but from the descriptions,
it sounds like there's a very bit of cast off
all over the place that he's probably really pounding on
her head with the knife in place causing the sharp
force injuries, and then there's also a description of blood
force injuries which to be caused by a blunt object
that they haven't found yet. It could be caused from
(24:23):
the handle of the knife as well another object at
the scene that hasn't been found that could have been
used to crush her face and pound in her face
and break her skull.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And Mattie Mogan's attack was brutal. I think she sustained
even more stab wounds than Kelly did, although Kelly's were
in the face. What about Mattie's attack, Doctor crowns.
Speaker 15 (24:51):
So Mattie has multiple in sized and stab wounds, plus
penetrating injuries of the lungs and liver. She would have
had to have had multiple stab wounds that go into
her chest cavity, into her abdominal cavity. Probably she's laying
in her bed and being stabbed brutally in the chest
and abdomen. And then she has what are called in
(25:13):
size wounds, which are longer wounds than they are deep,
which can be from the knife being drawn across her
body causing these large, gaping wounds as well.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Cheryl McCollum joining us who investigated this case herself, and
after you hear those injuries and about Ethan being slashed
across his jugular with arterial bleeding, shooting up to the
ceiling and all over the room.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
We took a deal because he wouldn't appeal, and now
he can.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Appeal, Cheryl McCollum. A deal for who.
Speaker 10 (25:52):
If you were ever going to use the death penalty,
it's in this case. You have four young people completely innocent,
had harmed. No one was not involved in anything illegal.
They were in their home, in their beds, and Nancy,
(26:14):
when you describe the injuries, this was not some.
Speaker 7 (26:19):
Real quick from a distance, This was a very violent,
long scene. This was not quick. He took time with
every single victim to ensure that he had killed them.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
She's not.
Speaker 12 (26:56):
Okay, one woman, I'm going to help her going.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
If the world had known the horrific injuries, Killy Glensavas's
face stabbed so many times, she is disfigured and beyond identification.
Speaker 11 (27:22):
Matty Mugen leans to the face Xana Kernodle more than
fifty stab wounds, fifty It's unbelievable.
Speaker 15 (27:29):
He brutalized each and every one.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Of them, and tonight while Coburger is gnashing his teeth
and twisting his tail, plotting his appeal that he swore
he wouldn't launch. We're also learning about his obsessive hand
washing behind bars, and that Coburger has a mummy issue.
(27:51):
Let's start with the hand washing obsession.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (27:54):
Ryan Coberger's hygiene habits reportedly irked other inmates at the
Leita County Jail. They say Coburger washed his hands dozens
of times every day, and the only thing longer than
his showers were his phone calls to his mother. While
Coburger was seen wearing gloves in public and to throw
away his trash in the weeks after the murders. It's
unclear if the convicted quadruple killer is still concerned about
(28:18):
leaving DNA or is a certified germophobe with that in mind.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Two, Doctor Bethany Marshall, that's quite the dichotomy, is it not.
Because this crime scene was so horrific. The students were slaughtered.
They were slaughtered. It was horrible. It's unlike anything you
see on TV or movies. Its smells, it's grimy, it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The victims are lying there, they have been dead for hours.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Bleeding out, but yet the killer obsessively washes his hands.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Explain the dichotomy.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
How can that be that the says of hand washer
left such a horrific crime, saying, well, you see the.
Speaker 8 (29:04):
Thumbs up photo where he's in front of the shower curtain.
It's like he was in a hurry to clean everything off,
as well as his hands. You know, Nancy, he could
have OCD, which is obsessive compulsive disorder, and in that case,
the person has an intrusive thought that they can only.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Neutralize by an act.
Speaker 8 (29:20):
So the thought could be I'm in prison, I'm in
a cage full of feces. It's very dirty here. That's
the intrusive thought. The action is I'm going to take long,
long showers and wash my hands as much as possible
to get off all these germs. So think about the
type of punishment this is for him. I'm not as
upset by the death sentence or the lack of the
(29:41):
death sentence immediately, because I think it's sort of just
tos served to put somebody with OCD in a very
filthy prison with feces all around, where their brain is
just going to fire and fire and fire and tell
them that there are germs all over him. Seems to
be like justice served.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Okay, well you know what, Cheryl McCollum, could you please
respond to Dr Bethany that it's worse to be behind
bars without pure l than it is to get the
death penalty.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
How wrong that is? Hit it.
Speaker 7 (30:17):
If we are going to go by an eye for
an eye, he does not deserve to take another breath.
Speaker 9 (30:24):
Period.
Speaker 7 (30:25):
He took something from these families and their friends that
cannot be replaced. And I'll tell you something. It can't
even be an eye for an eye. It's not equal here.
These children were loved, they were smart, they were beautiful,
they were just about to take off and be whoever
they were destined to be. And he stole that. He
(30:47):
stole graduations, he stole jobs, he stole future marriages, he
stole future children. He deserves the ultimate punishment.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Chris McDonald, I didn't know where she was going on
this as well. The skulking in the home equals sexual foreplay.
I got that bomb dropped onmmy. Now, doctor Bethany is
saying that for Coburger, being behind bars with that purel
is worse than the death penalty. Could you please respond
(31:18):
to her.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
You know, so, let's put ourselves into that room just
for a moment. The very first thing you will recognize
immediately is the silence in that room. The second thing
you will recognize is the cast off and the amount
of rage and horror that took place. The third thing
(31:39):
you will recognize is imagining this person who's caused playing
Ted Bundy Hey in the backyard, and then he's in
your room almost immediately as the helper to brutally kill you.
(31:59):
This is what these victims saw, specifically Kaylee and Maddie.
They experienced it first. It's horrific.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, you know. To doctor Bethony Marshall,
I'm thinking through all of his amenities at his new digs,
there's really nothing stopping him. Since he's got use of
a tablet, he has cable, he has money to fund
(32:35):
his iPad.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I don't think anything is.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Precluding him from ordering Netflix or Prime or Showtime or
anything else. When he's tired of reliving the murders, he.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Can just hop on to one of the pay channels.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
I mean, this is wrong, No wonder the Gonsalvast family
was so angry about the deal.
Speaker 8 (33:00):
And you know what else he's going to have access to, Nancy,
psychotropic medication. And what that means is that not only
will he get tired of his fantasies, but then he'll
have pay television, the iPad, whatever else he wants, Nancy,
is that there will be expert psychiatric care. Because OCD
is very biologically motivated. So all those scary thoughts, anxious thoughts,
(33:22):
they're going to calm down and he's going to be
in better shape that he's been in a long long time.
And let's say he's watching next Fit, Netflix or pay
per view television. Even just looking at a woman is
going to get him excited. He can make mountains out
of a molehill, Nancy. So this is all kinds of
material that somebody who is a sexual sadist should not
(33:46):
have access to.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
We are also learning about Ryan Coberger's mommy issues.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Listen, Goberger lost his temper at another inmate who he
believed was insulting his mother. According to a police report
detailing in counts, Coberger was on a video call with
his mother when a fellow in May yelled, you suck
at a television screen while watching sports. Coberger assuming the
insult was directed at him or his mother aggressively approached
to the inmate and question if the comments were aimed
(34:15):
at them. The situation was resolved quickly after the two
inmates discussed the misunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
So Coberger has a physical altercation with another inmate on
the misperception. The inmate commented about his mother, Okay, mommy
issues out the ying yang Bethany.
Speaker 8 (34:33):
You know, I think what's interesting about murderers is that
they often see their mothers as pristine, as a source
of comfort.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
You know, when.
Speaker 8 (34:42):
Inmates escape from jail, as you once said, where do
you find them? Hiding in mommy's house? That's always where
they go.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And I think it's.
Speaker 8 (34:50):
Because that early, early attachment makes them believe that that
person will never ever turn away from them, that there
will always be comfort and care. But you know what,
it's not always true, Nancy. Sometimes these mothers, just like
Casey Anthony's mom, they're onto their child after a while
and that comfort and care is withdrawn.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And that may just happen to Brian Coberger. He was
on a faceheime rzi with his mother. If he can
do that, what's next?
Speaker 8 (35:19):
OnlyFans if he has access to his mother Nancy, he
can gain access to whatever he wants.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
And we know that men.
Speaker 8 (35:28):
Who think like this need very little material to spark
their sexual fantasies. That's what I am worried about. And
we know that sex offenders, in particular, when they get
out of jail, which Brian Coberg Coworger never will, they
are angrier, more aroused, and more ready to offend than ever.
(35:51):
So in some ways, he's being given his own version
of pornography to respond to. It may not mean anything
to anybody else, but in his fantasy life, it will
mean a lot to him.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
The stabs so deep, her liver is lacerated, stabbed thirty times.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
So many stab worms, so many stab wounds, a lacerated liver.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Nearly every study of serial killers includes the keeping of trophies. Trophies,
whether it's a victim's jewelry, whether it's a driver's license,
whether it's underwear or a garment, a piece of clothing,
a photo. It's very, very In fact, it's predictable that
(36:40):
a killer keeps a trophy. Like you and I would
keep ticket stubs to a concert or a photo album.
They keep memento souvenirs of their murders.
Speaker 13 (36:54):
Listen, Coberger captain trophies from women he knew, including two
ID type cards belonging to women he knew years before
the murders. One belonged to a woman he worked with
at the Pleasant Valley School District when he was a
security guard at the school. There's no way of knowing
how he got the IDs, how long he had them,
or what he planned to do with them.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Chris McDonald joining me, founder director of.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
The Cole Case Foundation, and you can find him now
on the interview room on YouTube. Chris mcdonna very often
when you process a crime, saying, you see all sorts
of things, but you don't realize their significance. But now
we see that Coburger kept trophies.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
He kept these ideas of.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Women that are alive. Thank Heaven that he knew years ago.
Why and when you go to a crime saying, you
don't always realize what you've got. You don't realize that's
a trophy from some other incident.
Speaker 6 (37:53):
Yeah, And when you start thinking about that at length financy,
you realize the the statistic fantasy that was playing out
here in this particular case, there are two identification cards
from gals that he apparently had contact with way prior
(38:13):
to the homicides. But what it does tell us is
it gives us an insight into his fantasy based plan
that the reason these individuals take those types of items
is to relive the events and they transfer that into
this sexual you know, play that they believe is going
(38:38):
on in their heads. And you know, the doc can
tell us a lot deeper about why that is.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yes, Susan Henricks, before I get a shrink in on this,
what do we know about the women whose IDs he had?
And what we're talking about? To start that Q and
A is when you look at his apartment, but you
may see trophies that you don't even realize are trophies.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
It could be.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
A scarf, it could be a pair of socks, it
could be anything that reminds him of a particular woman.
Speaker 16 (39:17):
Absolutely, and the id's that he did take. Investigators in
the beginning went to those women and they said, we
know who he is. He was never any threat. I
think maybe this was a drive run. How sneaky do
you have to be to get someone's ID? Did you
break into their house? Did you steal their wallet? How'd
you get it? He's sneaky. That tells me that he
(39:37):
was in that house, like you said earlier, during the party,
getting to know Kayley's doll. All of this to me said,
Oh he put those women's IDs?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
How how is the question?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know, it's freaky, Doctor Bethany what Susan Hendricks just
said about him going to the home maybe during a party,
maybe skulking around on his own and like sniffing their pillowcase.
But what she said about how did he get these
other women's IDs? Did he pilfer through their pocketbook? Did
(40:10):
he stick his nose in their purse and smell it?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
What else?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Did he take their lipstick, their perfume, their comb? But
just imagine Coburger going room to room when I guess
nobody was there, looking around, figuring out the layout, picking
up their items, looking at them.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
You know, he smelled them. I don't know what were
just fealing If.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
He did so, I don't know what that means. I
just know that it happens. You can explain what it
all means.
Speaker 8 (40:44):
Well, of course, smelling the underwear and putting on the
lipstick like b t K Killer. Remember he dressed himself
up in women's stockings, and clothing. It's like inhabiting the
victim in fantasy, having sex with the victim, gaining proximity
to the victim, Nancy. We would all be naive to
think that the murder victims are the only people he stalked.
(41:04):
That's one thing. But I think what's fascinating is the
ID cards as opposed to women's underwear, because what that
tells me is you cannot pursue or identify somebody through
their underwear. There's no social Security number on it, there's
no telephone number or address. But once you have someone's ID,
you can track them, Nancy. So this is akin to
(41:27):
like somebody's book reading list. You know, it's the next
book he's going to check out at the library. Or
with some of my patients who are sex addicts, they're
porn cash on their computers. It's the next video they're
going to look at. So this tells me that sniffying
women's underwear was simply not enough. He had graduated. He
was graduating to collecting IDs to id future victims.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
You know another thing about did you get into the home?
How did he get those IDs from the other women?
What other trophies are in his apartment that we don't
even know, we can't identify that they are trophies. But
he got those.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
IDs from those women, and they don't know how he
got them. And it's leading me back to another intrusion,
and that Susan Hendrix is from a female colleague he
had where he offered to help her.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Those words echo in my mind because he said that
to one of the murder victims. I'm here to help you.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
He offered to help the female colleague set up her
WiFi in her home, but he set it up so
he could spy on her in all the rooms in
her home, watching her watch TV, changing clothes in her bedroom,
walking naked into her kitchen to turn on the coffee pot.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
He helped her too, didn't he.
Speaker 16 (42:45):
Yeah, And she felt uneasy. She felt like someone was
watching her or following her. So she went to Coburger, thinking, Hey,
the man he can help you set it up, when
it was actually I believed him making her feel uncomfortable
and he's the guy that's going to show which means
more access to this woman. You're absolutely right when saying
(43:05):
no way, are the women in that home who are
really murdered by this manner? The first women that he
has stopped or followed.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
No way, Philip Gibei. It's the same thing over and
over and over again. When you don't know what he's
going to do, look at what he's already done. Again,
when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
We know he had these trophies from these other two women,
and they can't explain how he got them. Their ideas, pocketbook,
(43:35):
home workstation. Nobody knows. We know he got into his
female coworkers' home to help her set up her WiFi
and her nanny cams that she had in her home,
her surveillance so he could watch her.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
He could get into her home. So what does that
tell me? He did get into this.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Home to stalk them and get the lay of the land,
which goes to lying in white and seeking the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Do you ever wish your client would surprise you?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
But no, they do the same thing over and over
and over again, just like cobragrams.
Speaker 14 (44:10):
I'm not feeling that in this case. I don't think
that the theft of those two ID cards was sexually
motivated in any way, shape or form. And I'm telling
you this is just based on decades of working in
the justice system. What I am seeing is the dawning
days of the gateway crime, namely petty theft, just stealing
(44:31):
two identity or ID cards as a crime of opportunity
that could eventually lead to bigger and greater crimes, and
the fact that he was able to pull it off
gave him a thirst to commit greater offenses. But I
don't think the theft of those two cards was sexually motivated.
Maybe at most he was going to commit identity theft
with them.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Are you a shrink? No, you're not.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Bethany is a shrink, all right, she's a psychoanalyst.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
And I didn't ask you a strinth question.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
I asked you about defendants that keep doing the same
thing over and over and over.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Doctor Bethany.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Really two women that he works with that somehow he
gets in their home their workstation or their pocketbook or
their car, and Pilfer's around and steals IDs that he
keeps for years. And Dubey says, it's not sexually motivated,
it's about petty theft.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Okay, well, you know what, drop the mic.
Speaker 8 (45:31):
Well, this shows me the amount of the preoccupation that
he has. And it's not just a preoccupation with sex
or stalking or anything like that. It's a preoccupation with
inflicting maximum harm in order to enhance sexual arousal. He
is a statist. He's also a voyeur because now he's
(45:51):
spying on this woman and he's stalking, because it's a
part of victim selection. Think about what we know about
serial killers. Sometimes they'll from city to city, or neighborhood
to neighborhood, or jump on the railway or whatever, or
spend a lot of time online because they're looking for
the perfect victim, maybe like you and I looking for
a Michel unrated restaurant. You know, we'll just want the
(46:14):
best meal on our vacation or something like that. So
these all these people, all these women were in his sights.
The male victim was slashed, you know, his throat was slashed,
but the women were stabbed repeatedly. And I had the
same thought doctor Kendall Crown is that he was wanting
to get the guy out of the way because the
(46:34):
women were his object of sexual interest.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Will Brian Coiberger appeal. I'll put money on it. But
as we wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off,
goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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