October 11, 2017 • 50 mins
A 2-week-old infant disappeared from her crib triggering a search that ended with the discovery of Caliyah McNabb's tiny remains in a duffle bag in woods near the family's home. Nancy Grace looks at the case with psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, radio host David Mack ,forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and child advocate lawyer Ashley Willcott. Nancy and her experts update the decade-long mystery of missing Madeleine McCann. Court documents give new clues in the case of a would-be pastor who claims he stabbed his new wife to death in his sleep because of a cough medicine overdose.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
(00:23):
sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen, the new
network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. The search is on
for a missing two week old baby. She was only
(00:44):
fifteen days old, but even in that short time, Tim
Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Callia mcnaughn.
She was tiny, You had to feet every two hours
changing the little diapers, and her little head was about
the south of Tinnis Balls. Her parents said they fed
and changed her at five day and Saturday they reported
her missing at ten that morning. Jenny want I just
(01:05):
woke up? My do want me up? On account I
had a two year old and I had two weeks old.
My two weeks old is not her sleeper. Her passes
on the floor. She's not her. She's not in her sleeper,
she's not here. Who got my kid? Man? But I
want my kid back, man, that's my job and I
want my too. It Man, A fifteen day old baby girl,
(01:25):
Khalia McNabb goes missing. I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us and all points bulletin
and amber alert goes out for baby Khalia straight out
to Dave Mac, syndicated talk show host joining us. Dave Mac,
what can you tell me about the fifteen day old
(01:47):
baby gone missing? Because Ashley Wilcot, you're a child advocate,
you're with me at fifteen days one of my children
were still in the nick that would be Lucy Way
in a big two pounds, and I spent the rest
of my time staring at John David to make sure
he was breathing. So, how does the fifteen day old
(02:07):
baby go missing? It's not like it can, you know,
go outside and catch an uber, Dave Mat. How does
the baby girl go missing? Nancy? It's one of those
stories where the parents say that the last time they
saw the baby when they fed her at five o'clock
in the morning on a Saturday morning. Then they went
back to check on her between nine and ten, and
she was gone, hold on, I know, I'm just a lawyer,
(02:30):
Dave Matt, but let me just do the math here.
Five am to nine thirty, So a newborn baby manages
to be unattended for four and a half hours. Wow,
that's incredible to me because when mine were that age,
it was about every two hours they had to be fed.
Plus I was already staring at them anyway, So let
me understand this, Dave Max indicated, talk to your host.
(02:52):
You're telling me the mom and the dad had their
eyes on the baby around five am? Is that correct? Correct?
To Dr Daniel Ober forensic psychiatrists you're joining me. Dr Bober,
thank you for being with us. They do call nine
one one immediately after discovering the babies not there, don't they? Yes, Nancy, uh,
And that's what you would expect, um, I did you know,
(03:14):
I think it was odd that they would the babies
would disappear from their site for a total of four hours.
That did seem a little odd to me, As you say,
you know, usually these feedings are every two hours, so
I'm just wondering what was going on during that time period.
But yes, calling nine one one is obviously the thing
to do. I want you to hear the nine one
one call for yourself. Listen, eaton, Kenny. I wan'tres the emergency.
(03:36):
I just woke up. I don't let me up on
the couch. Um. I have a two year old and
I have a two week old. And my two week
old is not in her sleeper. Her pasties on the floor,
she's not in her saper, she's not in your sleeper,
She's not here. I've looked everyone. I've looked under clothes
and everything. What's your addressing highlight? Yes? What thirty one?
(04:03):
Do you think somebody took her? Ma'am? My child took
my two year old says she's gone, And I've looked
at her in the house, so I don't. I don't
know another possibility. What light number are you at? Thirty one? Okay?
And you said you were sleeping, woke up and she
was gonne? Yes, my my my two year old. Paene
worked me up. That's fend that was on account. How
(04:29):
old is she, ma'am? Two weeks old? Okay? Man? You
know who else would have come in your house? I mean,
as far as I know, nobody would have came in
my house, my tweear old sis papa. But I called
my dad and I called my grandparents and they don't
have a My dad's on the way right now, Okay,
(04:52):
all right, how long could you even sleep? Um? The
last time I woke up with her was around I
guess five maybe? Okay, so you were asleep since five o'clock? Yes,
(05:13):
I didn't even mean if I will sleep on the
house down after dealing with her own country or can
you tell if someone's been there? Is her blanket? They're gone,
her blankets gone, her past. He is here on the
floor a blankets not with us. I don't know with
I mean, I I don't know. I guess it's with her, okay.
(05:34):
And I have clothes and toads. But I've looked all
in home and she's not here. Anything else missing, like
a baby bag that she would that you would have,
or anything else. Her bottles here on top of my shelf. Okay,
in my bathroom, ma'am. Huh? Yeah? What about anything else
(05:57):
that could possibly have gone, like could be herd could
have gone with her? Um? No, nothing else? Just heard
her blanket. Okay. So the only thing is miss death
missing is her in her blanket. He didn't talk to
the dad or grandma or anybody my dad looking at
when me. Dad just left and he was walking around
the park looking for her because my two year olds
(06:20):
is I asked her, did somebody to come in and
take her? And she said, yeah, but I don't you know,
she's too so I don't know if I can that
or she looked through everything like under the bed. Yes, ma'am,
yesterd'am okay, okay, ya, all right. What's your name, ma'am?
(06:40):
Courtney Bell C O R C and E Y B
E L L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've
been on the way out there. I'm just getting this
information to update them. Okay, thank you too much. What's
your phone number? Um, I'm not sure if this number
my phone bust is the other day? Um, my grandmother's phone.
She's been with me. All right, So you and the
dad both were I'm just trying to get to understand
(07:00):
if I can let them know because of the questions
that they're asking me. You and her dad both were
sleeping or he just came back home. Now I woke
up together. She woke us up together. Okay. The two
year awoke y'all up and told you all that the
baby was gone. Yeah, okay, she she was kind of
freaked out. I mean, I don't I don't know, because
(07:23):
she was just standing there beside the house in the
corner and I told her came here and I loved honor,
and then I told my baby's dad to go check
on Khalilah. And then you're talking about she's not in here.
She's not in here. Okay, Well the police should be
in the area. Now, thank you. I'll go ahead and
let you go, okay. Than another issue, actually, Wilcot joining
(07:45):
me child advocate. The baby was put to bed, back
to bed, was fed and changed according to the parents,
at five am on a Saturday morning, and put back
in bed with her two year old sister. Now you
and I know about coach sleep. Absolutely not supposed to
go sleep, and a lot of people don't know that.
But what strikes me about that is whoever would have
(08:08):
taken the baby, would it have woken up the two
year old sister. A long time ago, before I had children,
I would say, of course, you come in the room,
you get a child out of the bed. Of course
it's going to wake up the other child. Not necessarily true, Ashley,
because I can pick up one of my children and
move them to another bed and they don't remember a
(08:29):
thing about it. The next morning, they have no idea
how they ended up where they were. So, and they're nine,
ash so it can happen. It would not surprise me
that the two year old sister did not wake up.
I agree, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But remember
this is also a tiny, tiny baby. They said the
head could fit in a person's hand, and so being
such a tiny baby, you're right, they may not at
(08:49):
all notice a two year old man, not at all
notice if a little baby is picked up, even if
the baby is sleeping right next to the two year old. Now,
did the two year old over on the baby and
suffocate the baby? May maybe they're sleeping in the same bed.
That's danger. You know what's interesting, Ashley, Well, got to
this day people insist that Burke Ramsey killed John Benet Ramsey,
(09:12):
which is statistically virtually impossible. Okay, you know, a sibling side,
as it's called in slang, uh sibling side is very
very rare. Plus if you look back at Burke and
John Benet, she was the dynamo. Burt was the one
that was frell and pale, look like she could crack
(09:34):
him in half. I never bought into that theory. The
likelihood that a two year old little girl could roll
over on an infant, while technically possible, I find very unlikely.
Somebody took the baby out of the crib. And remember
we're basing all of this on the parents timeline. Take
a listen to the father as he begs, begs Christopher
(09:59):
McNabb begging for the return of his baby girl, Khalia,
who got my kids? Man? But I want my kid back, man,
that's much I want my kid? Man? So what happened
to Kaliah McNabb. Let's just talk forensically for one moment
with me is forensics expert, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville
(10:23):
State University, Joseph Scott, Morgan, Just Scott, thank you for
being with me, along with Dr Daniel Bober, Dave Matt
and Ashley Wilcot. Joe Scott. Let's just break it down.
I have handled many cases where a child disappears from
their own bedroom. This family did not have an alarm system.
(10:43):
Anybody could have gotten into that home very very easy
access they were in a community where the homes are
very close together. Nobody heard anything, nobody saw anything. But
still the likely hood of an intruder, a stranger taking
(11:03):
the baby out of the bedroom is low, not necessarily
true at malls or at fairs or out in the
public to come into your home and take your baby
a stranger kidnap very low likelihood. But it does happen.
Do I have to say, Polly Class or Elizabeth Smart,
it does happen, Joe Scott. It doesn't easy. But I
(11:25):
tell my students at at university in my criminal Investigations
club that the cases they're gonna work as investigators, they're
they're gonna be looking at intimates far more frequently than
they will at strangers. And you will have more means,
opportunity and motive in that context with the people that
you live with. Uh. And this is kind of making
me scratch my head. How would someone uh just out
(11:48):
of the blue snatch this little angel out of the
bed and then they disappear for this extremely long amount
of time without any accountability whatsoever. Uh. It makes me
look really hard. Now, it's people that are in dwelling
this this house, and also any individuals that may have
had access to this house. Who do we know? Dave
Max indicated talk show host who had access to the home. Again,
(12:12):
there's no burglary alarm system, nothing like that. What relatives
or neighbors could get into this home? Nancy? As you mentioned,
they did live in an area that had a number
of other homes nearby. There was no alarm system, So yeah,
there was access, and there were family members nearby because
they actually were helping in the search. So there's any
(12:32):
number of people that could have had access if in
fact the baby was kidnapped. Now, I want you to
listen now to sound that we have obtained for you
of a convenience store clerk that came upon the father,
Christopher McNabb. You just heard him pleading for his child's return. Listen.
He just come in and he said, how you remember
(12:54):
making my last night? And a duthor he said, you sure,
I'll see you, sir. He remember my baby is the
one that got kidnapped, and said, y'all don't leave me.
Y'all don't leave me. That's him, that's h him. And
then they were standing there and I said, please don't
leave me. And then he started calling and talking about
they're gonna get me. They're gonna get me. I'll been
running on day then in the woods I day and
I tried to call nine one one anyone would go through,
(13:14):
and I was called again when you go through. And
then the third time I called, it went through and
he's still seeing it here, and I said, uh. He said,
they're not gonna get me. He said, and then anybody
trust them. We mean they're gonna get in trouble too.
And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you
like that, you know. And then he went to the door.
And when he went to the door, I hit it
again and got nine one one and I called nine
(13:38):
one one again and I got him and I said,
he's here. He's at thirty six at the Chevron. He's
in my store and he's going crazy. I don't know
what his problem is, but he said he was running
from the cops. He'd been hit in the woods all day.
I said, he's he's really scary. Somebody needs to get
there quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is
is dead, what does that mean to you? He's considered
a person who's attentuous. He is a son of interest,
(14:01):
but He kept saying, I didn't do it. I didn't
do it, We didn't do it. They did it. And
when y'all are go, when y'all find out who really
did it, but I didn't do it. There you were
hearing the father, Christopher McNabb, who understandably was erratic and
almost crazy, acting upon the news that his baby girl
(14:23):
was found in a duffel bag in the woods. The
baby found in a duffel bag in a in the woods,
Volunteer search crews say they find fifteen day old Khalia
McNabb stuffed in a duffel bag. Stuffed in a duffel bag.
(14:44):
The county sheriff says that when they tried to speak
to the father, Christopher McNabb, he jumped out of a
car and ran away. Ashley Wilcot jumped out of the
car and ran away. If Mike child, God forbid, this
ever happened, is missing. Do you think I'm gonna jump
(15:04):
out of a car and run away. Oh oh no,
I'll jump out of a car and run towards a
sheriff car to find my child. Right, it's guilty. He's
guilty of something. He's even if it's just probation violation.
But I would stand by the he or the mother
in the house with this infant know what happened. If
they didn't do it, what do we know, Dave Matt
(15:26):
about his behavior. He actually he got out and started running.
That's the whole thing is that there they found his baby.
He's been swearing up and down that he's wanting to
find his child, that he didn't do anything, and yet
the minute they tell him, hey, we found the baby,
he takes off running and he's gone for several hours.
We are bringing you the latest in the disappearance of
a fifteen day old baby girl, Khaliah McNabb, the parents,
(15:50):
Christopher McNabb and Courtney Belle. That brings me to another
question to Dr Daniel Bober Where was the mom all
this time? How can she not know the dad is
now charged? How could she not know what was going
on in her own home. Well, that's that's the whole point. Ye. Circumstantially,
it just doesn't really add up. It just seems like
there's a lot of people that don't have a lot
(16:11):
of information and needs. Are the people that, like your
last guests, that are the intimate season people that should
really know what the whereabouts of the child are, and
no one seems to really know anything. Uh, and it
just doesn't really seem to fit. No, it doesn't fit.
And when it doesn't fit, there's a reason, just got Morgan. Yes, yes,
absolutely there is. And I think that, uh, you know,
we're as as forensics people and investigators were always having
(16:34):
to observe the abnormal in the context of the normal.
This is not marrying up with what you would expect
out of normal behavior from people that are in charge
of not just a fifteen deal baby, but a fifteen
deal premature baby. These are the most fragile among us Nancy,
as you well know, and require the most intensive care possible.
(16:55):
And I'm not just talking about in hospital. I'm talking
about once they get this child at home. So it
really paused. Police questioned the mother, Khaliah's mother, and she
was released. However, the baby's father, Christopher McNabb, when he
found out the baby's body had been discovered, he took
off running. Now, the law in that jurisdiction is that
(17:18):
a judge would never give a jury an instruction on flight. However,
it can be argued by the prosecutor. You know, let
me ask you a question, Dave Matt. When you're driving
on the interstate and you see the Georgia State Patrol
pot behind you, I assume that you might tap on
the brakes and slow down, but you don't take off
(17:39):
at nine mph to get away from them, or jump
out of your car and run on foot because you
don't have a reason to what you can argue to
a jury, Dave Matt, that flight is evidence of guilt. Yes, absolutely.
On on top of all that, Nancy, if you were
looking for your baby, your fifteen day old baby, and
the police pullet behind you, the first thing you're gonna
(18:00):
do a slam on the breaks, assuming they've got information.
Not the opposite to Joseph Scott Morrigan, death investigator and
Professor Forensics at Jacksonvia State University. What do we know
about the autopsy? You know? And answer? Given that the
g b I has just released the cause of death
in this particular case involving this child, this raises all
(18:21):
kinds of new questions. It's no longer a matter of
some kind of natural event. Maybe they the child just
passed away in their sleep and the parents were trying
to hide it. Now we're truly faced with what appears
to be, at least on the surface, homicidal trauma. The
m E has now come out and said that this
was in fact the death as a result of blunt
force trauma. And there's a lot that there is to
(18:42):
consider here moving forward. How are we gonna handle the
witnesses in this particular case, how are they gonna be questioned.
Hopefully they're going to keep these people separated so that
they can't try to, you know, get their stories straight
among themselves. And then we have to consider this idea
of what generated this injury. And one of the things
that the EMMY is going to be looking at is
(19:03):
was this an instrument that created this trauma, like a
blunt object or was it a bare hand. One other
thing that we have to consider here that is not
off of the table is was this child dropped on
their head that brought about this trauma? And you know
that that's obviously a distinct possibility, and it's it's gonna
they're gonna have to go some distance, i think, to
(19:24):
to kind of paint this picture. But now the police
have all of the information that they need at this
point as far as the physical cause of death to
go into these rooms and question everybody involved in this case,
very very specifically interesting. The mother is not detained. The
father charged on an unrelated probation violation that could be
(19:46):
anything from a jaywalking to m A d u hy,
It could be anything. To Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist, I'm
just curious about the mother, the mother of the baby.
How can she not know what happened to the baby?
The baby's gone and stuffed in a duffel bag and
(20:08):
left in the woods. Dr Boba, Yes, Nancy, you know
I've worked in pediatrics, and you know what your guests
said is true about especially about premise um. Uh. The
parents never leave their side. I mean, these are parents
that basically live in the nick there by the incubator.
They don't leave, They don't even go to the bathroom.
And when the babies are home, you know, we know,
(20:29):
for example, that premature infants can have a higher risk
of crib death. They are terrified, petrified that something is
going to happen, and they never leave their side. So
the timeline that the parents provided in the fact that
the babies were out of sight for so long, just
doesn't add up at all. It really doesn't too Ashley Willcott,
lawyer and child advocate. Ashley, I want to hear your
(20:52):
thoughts on the mother. She has to know what happened.
I do not believe that this infant, who by all
accounts has to be fed every two hours, was left
alone in a crib with a two year old for
more than four hours, and the mother of that infant
doesn't know what happened. If she was there, she has
(21:14):
to if not complicit. I just cannot believe that those
two individuals in this house do not know what happened
to their now dead baby. We are on the case
on little baby Khalia. Let me pause and thank our
partner shining a light on unsolved Thomas sides and missing people.
(21:37):
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Legal zoom dot com. Is there a major break and
(22:47):
the search for the beautiful little girl who goes missing
while our parents are on vacation. Mattie McCann also known
as Madeli McCann. She's absolutely beautiful and you can't take er.
One eye is a slightly different color than the other eye.
She is physically beautiful and apparently was a happy, happy
(23:10):
little girl. Her parents go on vacation and tragically agree
to have dinner about a football field link away from
the apartment where the children are asleep as my understanding
Dave Max Indicated talk show, as they can actually see
the apartment. The room where the children are sleep from
(23:31):
where they are and they meet with another group of
people and they're out having dinner within eyeshot. Now to
me a football field linked the way is a long way,
but still there is within eyesight. And when they go
back to check on her, she's gone. The other children
are there, Maddie is gone. Um, what is the break
(23:53):
in the case, Dave mac The break right now, and
the reason we're talking about it is they are looking
for a widow woman, a woman they believe that she
lived near this holiday flat at the time Madeline vanished
in May of two thousand seven. They believed that before
she left. Then she left the country after her husband
passed away. And they don't know her exact location, somewhere
(24:15):
in eastern Europe. But that's the big break. What we
know right now is police are desperately searching for a
woman of Eastern European descent who is, as they say,
a quote, criminal witness and the disappearance of Maddie mccamp.
Now how they didn't know this until right now, I
don't know, but I do know. This Scotland yard has
(24:38):
just allocated another one d and fifty four thousand pounds Alan,
You'll have to look up and tell me what that
is in dollars a hundred and fifty four thousand British
pounds in operation granges twelve million pound budget to find
this woman, who detectives say could shed light on the
(25:00):
disappearance of Maddie McCann. Now she is believed to have
lived in Pride to lou where Madeleine vanished that may
before leaving the country after her husband died. Why are
they just now deciding that she is a forensic witness.
They're claiming, according to Scotland Yard, she may have seen
(25:21):
or heard something which to her may have been insignificant
but to us could prove vital. If she recognizes herself
from this description, she should contact police immediately. She has
nothing to fear. This is just to eliminate her from inquiries.
WHOA Okay, They are still working the theory that Maddie
(25:45):
was taken during a quote burglary gone wrong. What do
you make of it? Joining me child advocate and trial
lawyer Ashley will come and see. This is a tough one.
They're still searching. Because I have to believe in my
heart that no matter what happened to this child, whether
she's safe today or not, something's going to shake loose.
(26:07):
I think eventually it comes full circle and we will
know what happened to Mattie. But the only way that
can happen is if they continue the investigation, which thankfully
they're doing. The odd thing is, like you said, they're
now wanting to interview this witness, why not sooner? Holy
Molly Ashley, actually hold that back up, jack Jackie is
(26:29):
holding up her calculation. They've just been given two hundred
and three thousand dollars. That's nearly a quarter of a
million dollars. And this as we learned that internet trolls
had been bombarding Mattie mckinn's parents with hate meal over
the new cash infusion to find her. As investigators still
(26:49):
search for this woman of Eastern European descent. Of Eastern
European descent, police insists they think the woman has clues
to Mattie's disappearance. Now, this is something I don't understand,
Is it true, Dave mac According to sources, her parents
have been bombarded with hate mail. Why why would people
(27:13):
do that to the parents. Haven't they suffered enough? Nancy?
There are cowards who live on the Internet, and they
hide behind anonymous names and Facebook pages and things like that.
And there's many people that hold the parents responsible for
Maddie's disappearance and the amount of money that's been spent
on this case. So they come from several different angles,
and it's attack on a regular basis. Every time something
(27:34):
positive happens in this case, the trolls come out of
the woodwork and take over. I I it's almost like
a concerted effort to go after the McCann family. You
know what, of course you know. Joe Scott Morgan forensics
expert Joseph Scott Morgan is a professor of forensics at
Jacksonville State University and a death investigator. Joe Scott I
(27:57):
know why some people are skeptical, um, and that is
because when a child goes missing, statistically, more often than not,
someone within the family is involved. But in this case,
I think it's very clear that Maddie was alive when
they left for dinner and they came back and she's gone.
(28:18):
And yes, it doesn't happen very often, but it did
happen those I mean, at first, I was skeptical of
the meccans just because the statistics, but You've got a
whole group of people sitting around dinner with them, and
then there are the haters that blame them because they
went to dinner and left the children unattended. Within the investigation,
eliminate all those principles that are in the immediate orbit
(28:39):
of of of of the the person that's missing in
this case, this little girl. Eliminate them, and then you
can move forward. This is the troubling part, Nancy. Investigations
are conducted on a linear timeline. We the further we
move out in time. The further we move out in
time from that original point, the more memories get fade it,
(29:00):
the more evidence of roads. This sort of thing um encouraged.
Just like Ashley had mentioned that that they are still
on this case. There are many cases like this that
are sitting on desk all over the country here in
the US and all over the world that have just
collected dust. But for some reason, it seems as though
they know something. I think that with this new witness
(29:21):
that they want to speak with this this is this
is a really big deal and I'd be curious to
know what it is that this what information does this
person they didn't hold one year one year ago before
she disappeared, this woman of Eastern European descent that lived
near where Mattie went missing. I think it's just a
combination of people angry that the mccan's left Mattie and
(29:45):
her siblings alone. Um. Some people think that they're guilty,
that it's their fault that they they killed her. Um
and anger that maybe she's getting more attention or money
than other missing children, which is true. But I can
tell you this from a crime victim's point of view.
I'm just happy that they're getting the money and that
(30:08):
they haven't given up hope, and that the investigation is
still happening. As they say, there's no indication this child
is dead after she went missing, her body or any
suggestion of her death was never found. And you know, Ashley,
you're a trial lawyer like me. I mean, you know,
those parents have gotten uh grilled repeatedly. They've been they've
(30:31):
taken a lie detector tests, they've done everything. You know,
That's who the investigators looked at first, and they have
said many times they are not suspect. And I think Nancy,
you've already identified the crucial thing, which is people do
not like these parents because they went to dinner and
left two young children unsupervised. But they've then taken that
and rushed to judgment to say it's therefore the parents fault,
(30:53):
which isn't true legally in this case. They it's not.
That's just a jump that a lot of um, angry,
critical people are are passing judgment on these two parents
who are still wanting to find their daughter that night,
the night that she went missing. As she walcott, what
(31:15):
happened that night when she went missing, I always go
back to the beginning. Well, they were at dinner, they
come back, she's gone, She's not there, and they were
very clear. My recollection is when they were initially interviewed,
the yes, they could see where they were staying from dinner,
(31:37):
even if it was a football field, the way it
was in eyesight, and they didn't see the daughter leave.
They didn't see anyone take the daughter. It is a
true crime mystery. They don't know what happened, but something
They have been diligent and adamant that they will continue
to search for their daughter, and they will not lose
hope or give up. And boy, and not a whole
(31:59):
lot different than they dad who ran. When it's fifteen
day old was found dead. You know, this is how
I remember it going down. It was the evening in
early May, as I recall May three, and Maddie was
on vacation with her parents, Kate and Jerry McCann. She
has two year old twin siblings, so there's three children
in all, and they were all with a group of
(32:20):
family and friends and their children. Okay, so Maddie and
the twins have been left to sleep at um that
evening on a ground floor apartment, and the McCanns and
the other adult friends dined in a restaurant about a
hundred and eighty feet Oh wait, now it's not quite
(32:40):
a football field. Let's see, a football field is three
feet right, Okay, so it's about, you know, two thirds
of a football field. I remember this part, uh, Joseph
Scott Morgan, that the parents went and checked on the
children throughout the evening, and so you know, every forty
(33:01):
five minutes, every hour. I don't know those numbers, but
I know that they checked on them during the evening,
and the mother is the one that went back and
discovered she was missing. They left her there at she
was missing at twenty two an hour and a half later,
somebody had to have seen or had to have known
(33:24):
that she was taken. A lot of people claimed Portuguese
police came to believe that she died in an accident
and the appearance covered it up. Ah. I think that
has been completely debunked, Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, And as
you said earlier, there's no evidence of of of foul
play relative to a homicide, uh, you know, blood, this
(33:45):
sort of thing, a disruption in the apartment. I think
that it's really important that the parents are going back
and to check only should then because that tightens down
the window the time frame that we looked at when
we're building this timeline that I mentioned just a second
ago in the immediate so we could frame it if
the mother and the father can both stay in the
affirmative that they went at at a particular time and
(34:06):
then came back later in a measured amount of time,
that narrows the field down of who would have had
opportunity to get access to these children there on vacation, Nancy,
they're awash with strangers all around them. And I know
they're there with friends and family and all this, but
let's keep in mind there awash with people around them
that are unknown to them. So Lord only knows who's
kind of orbiting uh this this place where they were
(34:28):
staying in the last days. The parents have spoken to
the BBC. I want you to hear what they say.
There is progress, um, there are some very credible lines
of inquiry at the police are working on. Whilst there's
no evidence to give us any negative news. You know
(34:49):
that hope is still it really is there in your hearts.
Will be reunited with your daughter? Well, no patent's going
to get up on the old unless they know for
certain that she was dead and that we just don't
have any evidence. So I hope of being off. It's
no less than it was almost ten years ago. And
(35:12):
now we had to Raleigh, North Carolina for the very
latest in the so called cough Syrup murder. What we
have is a Bible college graduate and his young wife
who works at home and as a Sunday school teacher herself.
She ends up murdered in the couple's home. I want
(35:34):
you to hear the nine one one call that night.
What do you mean by what happened? Dream? And then
I turned on the lights and she stood on the
floor hell. Hell, I'm trying of blood all over me,
(35:55):
and there's a boy knife on the bird, and I
think I did it. In the last hours, we learned
that investigators reportedly say they have seized bloody bad sheets,
a knife set, and an empty box of cold medicine
from the home of that Bible graduate Matthew Phelps, the
(36:17):
aspiring North Carolina pastor now suspected in brutally stabbing his
young bride dead too. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, what
significance is this to you that they find an empty
box of cold medicine in the home? Well, Nancy, it's
(36:37):
highly suggestive that he was abusing the cough medicine, that
he was using it recreationally, and as you and I
had discussed before, you know, this is voluntary intoxication and
it's not going to be good for the defense. Along
with the one call which in which he stated that
he thinks the medicine can help him feel good and
help him sleep, and so he wasn't using it as
(36:58):
the way it was intended to be used medically, and
if he was using it recreationally, it's certainly not helpful
to their side. Well, according to a search warrant. We
now have the couple's bed sheets, bedspread, pillow cases were
all seized from the home. The warrant also states the
items were stained with an unknown rant substance. Well, I
(37:18):
can tell them what that is. It's blood. They also
find an empty box of course, seten cough and cold medicine,
a knife, block set, several laptops, a desktop computer, and
Lauren's iPhone. Um. They also took things like mortgage statements
(37:38):
and receipts. Now, I wonder what the significance of those are.
But dat back to you, Dr Daniel Bober. When you
find and I'm just thinking about this as a trial
lawyer from that perspective, when you find an empty box
of cold medicine and you know that the suspect is
saying I took the cold medicine, I was to my mind,
(38:00):
I didn't know what I was doing. I would want
to know this one. You got an empty box. Where
is the bottle of cold medicine? Did he throw that away?
If he did throw that away, why where is it?
Or is it tablet form which I doubt was there
any left? Do we have any idea how much he
(38:21):
had taken? If there was any left? Also, when did
he buy it? If he bought it a month before,
the fact that it's empty now would go towards a defense.
Is there a receipt? Can we narrow down when where
it was purchased, maybe even get him on video purchasing it.
That not and he drinks the whole bottle. I mean,
there's still a lot to find in order to prove
(38:44):
that he was voluntarily drinking corre siden yes or no, no,
I agree with you. Not only when did he buy it,
but is this something that he buys often? How often
does he buy it and what frequency is he going
to the store to get it. There there's a lot
of issues here here regarding the consumption of this cough
medicine and over what period of time that he actually
consumes it. But again, if he was using it recreationally,
(39:08):
that's going to be a real problem. Uh. You know
when you were talking about the red the red stains
on the sheets, actually that could also be the cough
medicine itself, not only blood. So there's still his course,
Satan read the corsine itself is not red, but depending
on how the dye that you use in the syrup,
it could be read. So that's you know something as well, Um,
(39:33):
he stabbed her and the bad it's blood. More likely
than not it's blood. Obviously back to the facts. Let's see,
I was thinking about the oh yes, oh yes, corsting
cough medicine b P as in blood pressure. What is
that and what if he needs the significance of the BP?
(39:54):
It would obviously be medicine for people who have high
blood pressure because there are certain ingredients and cough medicines
or cold medicines that, for example, one that I won't
say because I know you're gonna give me a hard
time about it, that go ahead plays for example, things
like uh phennel propenolamine and other chemicals with names like
(40:16):
that that can affect blood pressure. Uh. So it's probably
a cough medicine design to people who have hypertension, so
that doesn't affect their blood pressure. Um. Question to you,
Dr Daniel Bober. To be a psychiatrist, you've got to
be an m d. And then more school for psychiatry.
(40:38):
You have to go to medical school before you're a psychiatrist. Correct. Okay,
so what effect? Let me start with the body. What
effect would a bottle of this stuff dude, Well, what
would it do to you? Well, this drug is also
related to drugs like ketamine and PCP. It affects something
called the glutamate system, and it causes a dissociated of
(41:00):
effective dissociative or out of body experience where you actually
become disconnected from your thoughts and from your emotions, so
you're sort of floating in space, so to speak. That's
the kind of effect that it would happen. That's the
kind of effect that you mean you float to the
kitchen and get a butchered in your brain, not in reality?
Uh huh, okay, you know, Joseph Scott Morgan, I mean, really,
(41:26):
have you listened to the night when one call? Did
you listen when I was playing at just Scott or
are you tapping away on your iPad or something? I
had a dream and my wife is dead. You know.
The only other people that say that were O. J. Simpson,
he had a dream, remember that he killed Nicole Brown? Whoopsie,
it was true. And then Amanda Knocks from you know,
(41:50):
her trip in Italy says I had a dream and
I was covering my ears. I heard my roommate screaming
in the next room. Well, of course, she was finally
exonerated on appeal. But when people begin having clairvoyant type
dreams and there happens to be a dead body in
the same house with them, that gives me very nervous.
(42:10):
Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, I'm I'm you know, I'm a
science guy. I'm not interested in dreams. I'm interested in
reality and reality here is that Also in this call,
he alluded to the fact that there was blood. Uh,
he alluded to the fact that he apparently had done this,
that she didn't deserve this. I gotta I gotta commend
(42:33):
to police here. You know what one of the most
impressive things about this okay to me is is the
fact that when you see his intake photo Nancy, he
has what appears to be dried blood on his face,
and that gives me an indication that the police did
not allow him to clean himself up, which is key
in any kind of case like this, because this demonstrates connectivity.
(42:55):
They can demonstrate that he has what appears to be
dried blood on his face, and I think that that
is profound in this case. Also, we can tie the
blood back on his face and also relative to the
sheets if that is blood, which they will do several
tests in order to determine that. That's gonna be a
(43:16):
major key. Well, I mean, I'm telling you right now
it's her blood. Of course, it's her blood. So, uh,
everything's covered in blood. He's covered in blood. Obviously, it
was sling back from and he's lifting the knife to
stab her repeatedly as she's bound to have been fighting
for her life. I mean, I can tell you that.
(43:37):
How does that help me prove a murder Well, I
can tell you this. Uh, we can say that it's
blood all we want to, but from a scientific standpoint,
I want it proved because I want this to be
an airtight case and to demonstrate this I know, I know.
Just take the next step with me, Joe Scott Morrigan,
don't get me started, alright, I've already got bober On here.
(44:00):
But tell me, Joe Scott, just go with me on this.
Let's just pretend, Okay, let's take a tiny baby step
and rationality. Of course, it's her blood. I can already
prove our murder case. How does that help me prove
it even more? Are you saying he should have woken
up out of his dream? What are you trying to
say whether or not he would have woken up. But
(44:20):
I can say that he had some kind of recognition
because he had missed this on the on the nine
eleven tape that he said that he was apparently involved
in this. Now this is gonna be more in a
psychiatrist realm. But I don't know how they're going to
explain this away. What we can tie back is can
we put that knife in his hand and demonstrate that
(44:41):
he is actually facilitating this death. I think that they're
going to be able to do again. This goes to
connectivity between him, the knife, and the defects in her body,
which apparently appeared to be multiple. Ashley, Willcott help me, please?
You know what, throw me a life right here, I'm
floating in a sea of spec culation from Joe Scott
(45:01):
Morgan and Dr Daniel Bober, the forensic psychiatrist. You know,
the reality is there's two of them in the home.
She's stabbed dead, he's covered in blood, and he says, wow,
I was high on core sden I heard it makes
you feel good. I can't believe I did this. It
(45:22):
is and I'm missing something here. I don't and I
mean Ashley when you do a demo, a demonstration in
front of a jury, and you show the velocity needed
to stab her repeatedly, over and over and over. Where
blood's going anywhere? She struggling, She gets out of the bed,
she tries to get away. That didn't wake him up.
I really think it is murder. I do. And if
(45:45):
he had this cold medicine in a system, this is
a violent, violent act. And I think he did it
and then felt remorseful and said, oh what can I say? Oh,
that's right, I did take this cold medicine. I think
he knew he was doing it. I do think they
can prove murder in this case. You know what's interesting,
Ashley Wilcott Um, you're married, you've got children. I think
(46:10):
you'll know what I'm talking about. So he's got a
Bible degree, he could be a pastor. He's doing yards.
She's trying to work from home. You know, the most
dangerous time for a woman in a relationship, as if
she tries to leave. Who's not to say, now, this
(46:30):
is speculation that that night she's like, listen, you know what,
I'm tired of putting your bills. Let's take a little
break for a minute. And um, let's take a separation.
You know, that is the most dangerous time for a woman.
That's when most domestic commicides occur, right am I right about?
(46:51):
I agree? And I think I don't know that because
in her video that she posted just that night, trying
to sell candles from her own business, I'm just trying
to make money anyway, she could she looked I've watched
it a hundred times. She looks happy in her in
her life. But that that means nothing, Ashley. That doesn't
(47:14):
mean anything that she looked happy on a video. And
he could be under a lot of stress because of
the financial needs of the family. And right, all of
those things are true, And who knows what could have
triggered him any conversation she might have had, speculation again,
like you said about separating, about the finances, about the
(47:35):
condition of their marriage, about the state of affairs, any
of those things could have triggered him to react this violently.
And and they're fairly young. I mean they've been married
less than a year. Maybe one morning she woke up
and found out it ain't all that and a bag
of chips, and she's like, whoa wait a minute, this
is not what I signed up for another thing to
(47:58):
Dr Daniel Bober Forensics, psychia risk this stuff. I mean,
here's the deal. You don't need a dope dealer. You
can just go to Walgreens and get um coreseeden because
it tastes like candy. Dr Daniel Baber, tastes like It's true, Nancy.
I mean, people, it just amazed me as a physician,
(48:19):
as an addictive Wait a minute, you're not gonna argue
with me that it tastes like candy. You're not gonna
say something like, well, you know, I can't say myself
that it tastes like it tastes like candy. Is like
anything you want, Nancy. You can put anything any flavoring
you want. But the point is is that it's amazed
to me that people will find anything to abuse, whether
it's Benadrill, whether it's core Siton and it's you know
(48:40):
it's or suit of fed. It's right on your shelf.
You don't, like you said, you don't need a dope dealer.
You don't need to go to go into a back alley.
You can just go into a Walgreens or a CBS
that's right there. To Dave mac has he been formally
charged and felts we charged with murder. He's being held
at the White County without bail and facing life in
(49:01):
prison or even the death penalty. We have our eye
on a rolling North Carolina courtroom waiting for the latest
Nancy Grace crime stories. Signing off goodbye friend. In need
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February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
(00:23):
sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen, the new
network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. The search is on
for a missing two week old baby. She was only
(00:44):
fifteen days old, but even in that short time, Tim
Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Callia mcnaughn.
She was tiny, You had to feet every two hours
changing the little diapers, and her little head was about
the south of Tinnis Balls. Her parents said they fed
and changed her at five day and Saturday they reported
her missing at ten that morning. Jenny want I just
(01:05):
woke up? My do want me up? On account I
had a two year old and I had two weeks old.
My two weeks old is not her sleeper. Her passes
on the floor. She's not her. She's not in her sleeper,
she's not here. Who got my kid? Man? But I
want my kid back, man, that's my job and I
want my too. It Man, A fifteen day old baby girl,
(01:25):
Khalia McNabb goes missing. I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us and all points bulletin
and amber alert goes out for baby Khalia straight out
to Dave Mac, syndicated talk show host joining us. Dave Mac,
what can you tell me about the fifteen day old
(01:47):
baby gone missing? Because Ashley Wilcot, you're a child advocate,
you're with me at fifteen days one of my children
were still in the nick that would be Lucy Way
in a big two pounds, and I spent the rest
of my time staring at John David to make sure
he was breathing. So, how does the fifteen day old
(02:07):
baby go missing? It's not like it can, you know,
go outside and catch an uber, Dave Mat. How does
the baby girl go missing? Nancy? It's one of those
stories where the parents say that the last time they
saw the baby when they fed her at five o'clock
in the morning on a Saturday morning. Then they went
back to check on her between nine and ten, and
she was gone, hold on, I know, I'm just a lawyer,
(02:30):
Dave Matt, but let me just do the math here.
Five am to nine thirty, So a newborn baby manages
to be unattended for four and a half hours. Wow,
that's incredible to me because when mine were that age,
it was about every two hours they had to be fed.
Plus I was already staring at them anyway, So let
me understand this, Dave Max indicated, talk to your host.
(02:52):
You're telling me the mom and the dad had their
eyes on the baby around five am? Is that correct? Correct?
To Dr Daniel Ober forensic psychiatrists you're joining me. Dr Bober,
thank you for being with us. They do call nine
one one immediately after discovering the babies not there, don't they? Yes, Nancy, uh,
And that's what you would expect, um, I did you know,
(03:14):
I think it was odd that they would the babies
would disappear from their site for a total of four hours.
That did seem a little odd to me, As you say,
you know, usually these feedings are every two hours, so
I'm just wondering what was going on during that time period.
But yes, calling nine one one is obviously the thing
to do. I want you to hear the nine one
one call for yourself. Listen, eaton, Kenny. I wan'tres the emergency.
(03:36):
I just woke up. I don't let me up on
the couch. Um. I have a two year old and
I have a two week old. And my two week
old is not in her sleeper. Her pasties on the floor,
she's not in her saper, she's not in your sleeper,
She's not here. I've looked everyone. I've looked under clothes
and everything. What's your addressing highlight? Yes? What thirty one?
(04:03):
Do you think somebody took her? Ma'am? My child took
my two year old says she's gone, And I've looked
at her in the house, so I don't. I don't
know another possibility. What light number are you at? Thirty one? Okay?
And you said you were sleeping, woke up and she
was gonne? Yes, my my my two year old. Paene
worked me up. That's fend that was on account. How
(04:29):
old is she, ma'am? Two weeks old? Okay? Man? You
know who else would have come in your house? I mean,
as far as I know, nobody would have came in
my house, my tweear old sis papa. But I called
my dad and I called my grandparents and they don't
have a My dad's on the way right now, Okay,
(04:52):
all right, how long could you even sleep? Um? The
last time I woke up with her was around I
guess five maybe? Okay, so you were asleep since five o'clock? Yes,
(05:13):
I didn't even mean if I will sleep on the
house down after dealing with her own country or can
you tell if someone's been there? Is her blanket? They're gone,
her blankets gone, her past. He is here on the
floor a blankets not with us. I don't know with
I mean, I I don't know. I guess it's with her, okay.
(05:34):
And I have clothes and toads. But I've looked all
in home and she's not here. Anything else missing, like
a baby bag that she would that you would have,
or anything else. Her bottles here on top of my shelf. Okay,
in my bathroom, ma'am. Huh? Yeah? What about anything else
(05:57):
that could possibly have gone, like could be herd could
have gone with her? Um? No, nothing else? Just heard
her blanket. Okay. So the only thing is miss death
missing is her in her blanket. He didn't talk to
the dad or grandma or anybody my dad looking at
when me. Dad just left and he was walking around
the park looking for her because my two year olds
(06:20):
is I asked her, did somebody to come in and
take her? And she said, yeah, but I don't you know,
she's too so I don't know if I can that
or she looked through everything like under the bed. Yes, ma'am,
yesterd'am okay, okay, ya, all right. What's your name, ma'am?
(06:40):
Courtney Bell C O R C and E Y B
E L L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've
been on the way out there. I'm just getting this
information to update them. Okay, thank you too much. What's
your phone number? Um, I'm not sure if this number
my phone bust is the other day? Um, my grandmother's phone.
She's been with me. All right, So you and the
dad both were I'm just trying to get to understand
(07:00):
if I can let them know because of the questions
that they're asking me. You and her dad both were
sleeping or he just came back home. Now I woke
up together. She woke us up together. Okay. The two
year awoke y'all up and told you all that the
baby was gone. Yeah, okay, she she was kind of
freaked out. I mean, I don't I don't know, because
(07:23):
she was just standing there beside the house in the
corner and I told her came here and I loved honor,
and then I told my baby's dad to go check
on Khalilah. And then you're talking about she's not in here.
She's not in here. Okay, Well the police should be
in the area. Now, thank you. I'll go ahead and
let you go, okay. Than another issue, actually, Wilcot joining
(07:45):
me child advocate. The baby was put to bed, back
to bed, was fed and changed according to the parents,
at five am on a Saturday morning, and put back
in bed with her two year old sister. Now you
and I know about coach sleep. Absolutely not supposed to
go sleep, and a lot of people don't know that.
But what strikes me about that is whoever would have
(08:08):
taken the baby, would it have woken up the two
year old sister. A long time ago, before I had children,
I would say, of course, you come in the room,
you get a child out of the bed. Of course
it's going to wake up the other child. Not necessarily true, Ashley,
because I can pick up one of my children and
move them to another bed and they don't remember a
(08:29):
thing about it. The next morning, they have no idea
how they ended up where they were. So, and they're nine,
ash so it can happen. It would not surprise me
that the two year old sister did not wake up.
I agree, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But remember
this is also a tiny, tiny baby. They said the
head could fit in a person's hand, and so being
such a tiny baby, you're right, they may not at
(08:49):
all notice a two year old man, not at all
notice if a little baby is picked up, even if
the baby is sleeping right next to the two year old. Now,
did the two year old over on the baby and
suffocate the baby? May maybe they're sleeping in the same bed.
That's danger. You know what's interesting, Ashley, Well, got to
this day people insist that Burke Ramsey killed John Benet Ramsey,
(09:12):
which is statistically virtually impossible. Okay, you know, a sibling side,
as it's called in slang, uh sibling side is very
very rare. Plus if you look back at Burke and
John Benet, she was the dynamo. Burt was the one
that was frell and pale, look like she could crack
(09:34):
him in half. I never bought into that theory. The
likelihood that a two year old little girl could roll
over on an infant, while technically possible, I find very unlikely.
Somebody took the baby out of the crib. And remember
we're basing all of this on the parents timeline. Take
a listen to the father as he begs, begs Christopher
(09:59):
McNabb begging for the return of his baby girl, Khalia,
who got my kids? Man? But I want my kid back, man,
that's much I want my kid? Man? So what happened
to Kaliah McNabb. Let's just talk forensically for one moment
with me is forensics expert, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville
(10:23):
State University, Joseph Scott, Morgan, Just Scott, thank you for
being with me, along with Dr Daniel Bober, Dave Matt
and Ashley Wilcot. Joe Scott. Let's just break it down.
I have handled many cases where a child disappears from
their own bedroom. This family did not have an alarm system.
(10:43):
Anybody could have gotten into that home very very easy
access they were in a community where the homes are
very close together. Nobody heard anything, nobody saw anything. But
still the likely hood of an intruder, a stranger taking
(11:03):
the baby out of the bedroom is low, not necessarily
true at malls or at fairs or out in the
public to come into your home and take your baby
a stranger kidnap very low likelihood. But it does happen.
Do I have to say, Polly Class or Elizabeth Smart,
it does happen, Joe Scott. It doesn't easy. But I
(11:25):
tell my students at at university in my criminal Investigations
club that the cases they're gonna work as investigators, they're
they're gonna be looking at intimates far more frequently than
they will at strangers. And you will have more means,
opportunity and motive in that context with the people that
you live with. Uh. And this is kind of making
me scratch my head. How would someone uh just out
(11:48):
of the blue snatch this little angel out of the
bed and then they disappear for this extremely long amount
of time without any accountability whatsoever. Uh. It makes me
look really hard. Now, it's people that are in dwelling
this this house, and also any individuals that may have
had access to this house. Who do we know? Dave
Max indicated talk show host who had access to the home. Again,
(12:12):
there's no burglary alarm system, nothing like that. What relatives
or neighbors could get into this home? Nancy? As you mentioned,
they did live in an area that had a number
of other homes nearby. There was no alarm system, So yeah,
there was access, and there were family members nearby because
they actually were helping in the search. So there's any
(12:32):
number of people that could have had access if in
fact the baby was kidnapped. Now, I want you to
listen now to sound that we have obtained for you
of a convenience store clerk that came upon the father,
Christopher McNabb. You just heard him pleading for his child's return. Listen.
He just come in and he said, how you remember
(12:54):
making my last night? And a duthor he said, you sure,
I'll see you, sir. He remember my baby is the
one that got kidnapped, and said, y'all don't leave me.
Y'all don't leave me. That's him, that's h him. And
then they were standing there and I said, please don't
leave me. And then he started calling and talking about
they're gonna get me. They're gonna get me. I'll been
running on day then in the woods I day and
I tried to call nine one one anyone would go through,
(13:14):
and I was called again when you go through. And
then the third time I called, it went through and
he's still seeing it here, and I said, uh. He said,
they're not gonna get me. He said, and then anybody
trust them. We mean they're gonna get in trouble too.
And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you
like that, you know. And then he went to the door.
And when he went to the door, I hit it
again and got nine one one and I called nine
(13:38):
one one again and I got him and I said,
he's here. He's at thirty six at the Chevron. He's
in my store and he's going crazy. I don't know
what his problem is, but he said he was running
from the cops. He'd been hit in the woods all day.
I said, he's he's really scary. Somebody needs to get
there quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is
is dead, what does that mean to you? He's considered
a person who's attentuous. He is a son of interest,
(14:01):
but He kept saying, I didn't do it. I didn't
do it, We didn't do it. They did it. And
when y'all are go, when y'all find out who really
did it, but I didn't do it. There you were
hearing the father, Christopher McNabb, who understandably was erratic and
almost crazy, acting upon the news that his baby girl
(14:23):
was found in a duffel bag in the woods. The
baby found in a duffel bag in a in the woods,
Volunteer search crews say they find fifteen day old Khalia
McNabb stuffed in a duffel bag. Stuffed in a duffel bag.
(14:44):
The county sheriff says that when they tried to speak
to the father, Christopher McNabb, he jumped out of a
car and ran away. Ashley Wilcot jumped out of the
car and ran away. If Mike child, God forbid, this
ever happened, is missing. Do you think I'm gonna jump
(15:04):
out of a car and run away. Oh oh no,
I'll jump out of a car and run towards a
sheriff car to find my child. Right, it's guilty. He's
guilty of something. He's even if it's just probation violation.
But I would stand by the he or the mother
in the house with this infant know what happened. If
they didn't do it, what do we know, Dave Matt
(15:26):
about his behavior. He actually he got out and started running.
That's the whole thing is that there they found his baby.
He's been swearing up and down that he's wanting to
find his child, that he didn't do anything, and yet
the minute they tell him, hey, we found the baby,
he takes off running and he's gone for several hours.
We are bringing you the latest in the disappearance of
a fifteen day old baby girl, Khaliah McNabb, the parents,
(15:50):
Christopher McNabb and Courtney Belle. That brings me to another
question to Dr Daniel Bober Where was the mom all
this time? How can she not know the dad is
now charged? How could she not know what was going
on in her own home. Well, that's that's the whole point. Ye. Circumstantially,
it just doesn't really add up. It just seems like
there's a lot of people that don't have a lot
(16:11):
of information and needs. Are the people that, like your
last guests, that are the intimate season people that should
really know what the whereabouts of the child are, and
no one seems to really know anything. Uh, and it
just doesn't really seem to fit. No, it doesn't fit.
And when it doesn't fit, there's a reason, just got Morgan. Yes, yes,
absolutely there is. And I think that, uh, you know,
we're as as forensics people and investigators were always having
(16:34):
to observe the abnormal in the context of the normal.
This is not marrying up with what you would expect
out of normal behavior from people that are in charge
of not just a fifteen deal baby, but a fifteen
deal premature baby. These are the most fragile among us Nancy,
as you well know, and require the most intensive care possible.
(16:55):
And I'm not just talking about in hospital. I'm talking
about once they get this child at home. So it
really paused. Police questioned the mother, Khaliah's mother, and she
was released. However, the baby's father, Christopher McNabb, when he
found out the baby's body had been discovered, he took
off running. Now, the law in that jurisdiction is that
(17:18):
a judge would never give a jury an instruction on flight. However,
it can be argued by the prosecutor. You know, let
me ask you a question, Dave Matt. When you're driving
on the interstate and you see the Georgia State Patrol
pot behind you, I assume that you might tap on
the brakes and slow down, but you don't take off
(17:39):
at nine mph to get away from them, or jump
out of your car and run on foot because you
don't have a reason to what you can argue to
a jury, Dave Matt, that flight is evidence of guilt. Yes, absolutely.
On on top of all that, Nancy, if you were
looking for your baby, your fifteen day old baby, and
the police pullet behind you, the first thing you're gonna
(18:00):
do a slam on the breaks, assuming they've got information.
Not the opposite to Joseph Scott Morrigan, death investigator and
Professor Forensics at Jacksonvia State University. What do we know
about the autopsy? You know? And answer? Given that the
g b I has just released the cause of death
in this particular case involving this child, this raises all
(18:21):
kinds of new questions. It's no longer a matter of
some kind of natural event. Maybe they the child just
passed away in their sleep and the parents were trying
to hide it. Now we're truly faced with what appears
to be, at least on the surface, homicidal trauma. The
m E has now come out and said that this
was in fact the death as a result of blunt
force trauma. And there's a lot that there is to
(18:42):
consider here moving forward. How are we gonna handle the
witnesses in this particular case, how are they gonna be questioned.
Hopefully they're going to keep these people separated so that
they can't try to, you know, get their stories straight
among themselves. And then we have to consider this idea
of what generated this injury. And one of the things
that the EMMY is going to be looking at is
(19:03):
was this an instrument that created this trauma, like a
blunt object or was it a bare hand. One other
thing that we have to consider here that is not
off of the table is was this child dropped on
their head that brought about this trauma? And you know
that that's obviously a distinct possibility, and it's it's gonna
they're gonna have to go some distance, i think, to
(19:24):
to kind of paint this picture. But now the police
have all of the information that they need at this
point as far as the physical cause of death to
go into these rooms and question everybody involved in this case,
very very specifically interesting. The mother is not detained. The
father charged on an unrelated probation violation that could be
(19:46):
anything from a jaywalking to m A d u hy,
It could be anything. To Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist, I'm
just curious about the mother, the mother of the baby.
How can she not know what happened to the baby?
The baby's gone and stuffed in a duffel bag and
(20:08):
left in the woods. Dr Boba, Yes, Nancy, you know
I've worked in pediatrics, and you know what your guests
said is true about especially about premise um. Uh. The
parents never leave their side. I mean, these are parents
that basically live in the nick there by the incubator.
They don't leave, They don't even go to the bathroom.
And when the babies are home, you know, we know,
(20:29):
for example, that premature infants can have a higher risk
of crib death. They are terrified, petrified that something is
going to happen, and they never leave their side. So
the timeline that the parents provided in the fact that
the babies were out of sight for so long, just
doesn't add up at all. It really doesn't too Ashley Willcott,
lawyer and child advocate. Ashley, I want to hear your
(20:52):
thoughts on the mother. She has to know what happened.
I do not believe that this infant, who by all
accounts has to be fed every two hours, was left
alone in a crib with a two year old for
more than four hours, and the mother of that infant
doesn't know what happened. If she was there, she has
(21:14):
to if not complicit. I just cannot believe that those
two individuals in this house do not know what happened
to their now dead baby. We are on the case
on little baby Khalia. Let me pause and thank our
partner shining a light on unsolved Thomas sides and missing people.
(21:37):
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Legal zoom dot com. Is there a major break and
(22:47):
the search for the beautiful little girl who goes missing
while our parents are on vacation. Mattie McCann also known
as Madeli McCann. She's absolutely beautiful and you can't take er.
One eye is a slightly different color than the other eye.
She is physically beautiful and apparently was a happy, happy
(23:10):
little girl. Her parents go on vacation and tragically agree
to have dinner about a football field link away from
the apartment where the children are asleep as my understanding
Dave Max Indicated talk show, as they can actually see
the apartment. The room where the children are sleep from
(23:31):
where they are and they meet with another group of
people and they're out having dinner within eyeshot. Now to
me a football field linked the way is a long way,
but still there is within eyesight. And when they go
back to check on her, she's gone. The other children
are there, Maddie is gone. Um, what is the break
(23:53):
in the case, Dave mac The break right now, and
the reason we're talking about it is they are looking
for a widow woman, a woman they believe that she
lived near this holiday flat at the time Madeline vanished
in May of two thousand seven. They believed that before
she left. Then she left the country after her husband
passed away. And they don't know her exact location, somewhere
(24:15):
in eastern Europe. But that's the big break. What we
know right now is police are desperately searching for a
woman of Eastern European descent who is, as they say,
a quote, criminal witness and the disappearance of Maddie mccamp.
Now how they didn't know this until right now, I
don't know, but I do know. This Scotland yard has
(24:38):
just allocated another one d and fifty four thousand pounds Alan,
You'll have to look up and tell me what that
is in dollars a hundred and fifty four thousand British
pounds in operation granges twelve million pound budget to find
this woman, who detectives say could shed light on the
(25:00):
disappearance of Maddie McCann. Now she is believed to have
lived in Pride to lou where Madeleine vanished that may
before leaving the country after her husband died. Why are
they just now deciding that she is a forensic witness.
They're claiming, according to Scotland Yard, she may have seen
(25:21):
or heard something which to her may have been insignificant
but to us could prove vital. If she recognizes herself
from this description, she should contact police immediately. She has
nothing to fear. This is just to eliminate her from inquiries.
WHOA Okay, They are still working the theory that Maddie
(25:45):
was taken during a quote burglary gone wrong. What do
you make of it? Joining me child advocate and trial
lawyer Ashley will come and see. This is a tough one.
They're still searching. Because I have to believe in my
heart that no matter what happened to this child, whether
she's safe today or not, something's going to shake loose.
(26:07):
I think eventually it comes full circle and we will
know what happened to Mattie. But the only way that
can happen is if they continue the investigation, which thankfully
they're doing. The odd thing is, like you said, they're
now wanting to interview this witness, why not sooner? Holy
Molly Ashley, actually hold that back up, jack Jackie is
(26:29):
holding up her calculation. They've just been given two hundred
and three thousand dollars. That's nearly a quarter of a
million dollars. And this as we learned that internet trolls
had been bombarding Mattie mckinn's parents with hate meal over
the new cash infusion to find her. As investigators still
(26:49):
search for this woman of Eastern European descent. Of Eastern
European descent, police insists they think the woman has clues
to Mattie's disappearance. Now, this is something I don't understand,
Is it true, Dave mac According to sources, her parents
have been bombarded with hate mail. Why why would people
(27:13):
do that to the parents. Haven't they suffered enough? Nancy?
There are cowards who live on the Internet, and they
hide behind anonymous names and Facebook pages and things like that.
And there's many people that hold the parents responsible for
Maddie's disappearance and the amount of money that's been spent
on this case. So they come from several different angles,
and it's attack on a regular basis. Every time something
(27:34):
positive happens in this case, the trolls come out of
the woodwork and take over. I I it's almost like
a concerted effort to go after the McCann family. You
know what, of course you know. Joe Scott Morgan forensics
expert Joseph Scott Morgan is a professor of forensics at
Jacksonville State University and a death investigator. Joe Scott I
(27:57):
know why some people are skeptical, um, and that is
because when a child goes missing, statistically, more often than not,
someone within the family is involved. But in this case,
I think it's very clear that Maddie was alive when
they left for dinner and they came back and she's gone.
(28:18):
And yes, it doesn't happen very often, but it did
happen those I mean, at first, I was skeptical of
the meccans just because the statistics, but You've got a
whole group of people sitting around dinner with them, and
then there are the haters that blame them because they
went to dinner and left the children unattended. Within the investigation,
eliminate all those principles that are in the immediate orbit
(28:39):
of of of of the the person that's missing in
this case, this little girl. Eliminate them, and then you
can move forward. This is the troubling part, Nancy. Investigations
are conducted on a linear timeline. We the further we
move out in time. The further we move out in
time from that original point, the more memories get fade it,
(29:00):
the more evidence of roads. This sort of thing um encouraged.
Just like Ashley had mentioned that that they are still
on this case. There are many cases like this that
are sitting on desk all over the country here in
the US and all over the world that have just
collected dust. But for some reason, it seems as though
they know something. I think that with this new witness
(29:21):
that they want to speak with this this is this
is a really big deal and I'd be curious to
know what it is that this what information does this
person they didn't hold one year one year ago before
she disappeared, this woman of Eastern European descent that lived
near where Mattie went missing. I think it's just a
combination of people angry that the mccan's left Mattie and
(29:45):
her siblings alone. Um. Some people think that they're guilty,
that it's their fault that they they killed her. Um
and anger that maybe she's getting more attention or money
than other missing children, which is true. But I can
tell you this from a crime victim's point of view.
I'm just happy that they're getting the money and that
(30:08):
they haven't given up hope, and that the investigation is
still happening. As they say, there's no indication this child
is dead after she went missing, her body or any
suggestion of her death was never found. And you know, Ashley,
you're a trial lawyer like me. I mean, you know,
those parents have gotten uh grilled repeatedly. They've been they've
(30:31):
taken a lie detector tests, they've done everything. You know,
That's who the investigators looked at first, and they have
said many times they are not suspect. And I think Nancy,
you've already identified the crucial thing, which is people do
not like these parents because they went to dinner and
left two young children unsupervised. But they've then taken that
and rushed to judgment to say it's therefore the parents fault,
(30:53):
which isn't true legally in this case. They it's not.
That's just a jump that a lot of um, angry,
critical people are are passing judgment on these two parents
who are still wanting to find their daughter that night,
the night that she went missing. As she walcott, what
(31:15):
happened that night when she went missing, I always go
back to the beginning. Well, they were at dinner, they
come back, she's gone, She's not there, and they were
very clear. My recollection is when they were initially interviewed,
the yes, they could see where they were staying from dinner,
(31:37):
even if it was a football field, the way it
was in eyesight, and they didn't see the daughter leave.
They didn't see anyone take the daughter. It is a
true crime mystery. They don't know what happened, but something
They have been diligent and adamant that they will continue
to search for their daughter, and they will not lose
hope or give up. And boy, and not a whole
(31:59):
lot different than they dad who ran. When it's fifteen
day old was found dead. You know, this is how
I remember it going down. It was the evening in
early May, as I recall May three, and Maddie was
on vacation with her parents, Kate and Jerry McCann. She
has two year old twin siblings, so there's three children
in all, and they were all with a group of
(32:20):
family and friends and their children. Okay, so Maddie and
the twins have been left to sleep at um that
evening on a ground floor apartment, and the McCanns and
the other adult friends dined in a restaurant about a
hundred and eighty feet Oh wait, now it's not quite
(32:40):
a football field. Let's see, a football field is three
feet right, Okay, so it's about, you know, two thirds
of a football field. I remember this part, uh, Joseph
Scott Morgan, that the parents went and checked on the
children throughout the evening, and so you know, every forty
(33:01):
five minutes, every hour. I don't know those numbers, but
I know that they checked on them during the evening,
and the mother is the one that went back and
discovered she was missing. They left her there at she
was missing at twenty two an hour and a half later,
somebody had to have seen or had to have known
(33:24):
that she was taken. A lot of people claimed Portuguese
police came to believe that she died in an accident
and the appearance covered it up. Ah. I think that
has been completely debunked, Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, And as
you said earlier, there's no evidence of of of foul
play relative to a homicide, uh, you know, blood, this
(33:45):
sort of thing, a disruption in the apartment. I think
that it's really important that the parents are going back
and to check only should then because that tightens down
the window the time frame that we looked at when
we're building this timeline that I mentioned just a second
ago in the immediate so we could frame it if
the mother and the father can both stay in the
affirmative that they went at at a particular time and
(34:06):
then came back later in a measured amount of time,
that narrows the field down of who would have had
opportunity to get access to these children there on vacation, Nancy,
they're awash with strangers all around them. And I know
they're there with friends and family and all this, but
let's keep in mind there awash with people around them
that are unknown to them. So Lord only knows who's
kind of orbiting uh this this place where they were
(34:28):
staying in the last days. The parents have spoken to
the BBC. I want you to hear what they say.
There is progress, um, there are some very credible lines
of inquiry at the police are working on. Whilst there's
no evidence to give us any negative news. You know
(34:49):
that hope is still it really is there in your hearts.
Will be reunited with your daughter? Well, no patent's going
to get up on the old unless they know for
certain that she was dead and that we just don't
have any evidence. So I hope of being off. It's
no less than it was almost ten years ago. And
(35:12):
now we had to Raleigh, North Carolina for the very
latest in the so called cough Syrup murder. What we
have is a Bible college graduate and his young wife
who works at home and as a Sunday school teacher herself.
She ends up murdered in the couple's home. I want
(35:34):
you to hear the nine one one call that night.
What do you mean by what happened? Dream? And then
I turned on the lights and she stood on the
floor hell. Hell, I'm trying of blood all over me,
(35:55):
and there's a boy knife on the bird, and I
think I did it. In the last hours, we learned
that investigators reportedly say they have seized bloody bad sheets,
a knife set, and an empty box of cold medicine
from the home of that Bible graduate Matthew Phelps, the
(36:17):
aspiring North Carolina pastor now suspected in brutally stabbing his
young bride dead too. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, what
significance is this to you that they find an empty
box of cold medicine in the home? Well, Nancy, it's
(36:37):
highly suggestive that he was abusing the cough medicine, that
he was using it recreationally, and as you and I
had discussed before, you know, this is voluntary intoxication and
it's not going to be good for the defense. Along
with the one call which in which he stated that
he thinks the medicine can help him feel good and
help him sleep, and so he wasn't using it as
(36:58):
the way it was intended to be used medically, and
if he was using it recreationally, it's certainly not helpful
to their side. Well, according to a search warrant. We
now have the couple's bed sheets, bedspread, pillow cases were
all seized from the home. The warrant also states the
items were stained with an unknown rant substance. Well, I
(37:18):
can tell them what that is. It's blood. They also
find an empty box of course, seten cough and cold medicine,
a knife, block set, several laptops, a desktop computer, and
Lauren's iPhone. Um. They also took things like mortgage statements
(37:38):
and receipts. Now, I wonder what the significance of those are.
But dat back to you, Dr Daniel Bober. When you
find and I'm just thinking about this as a trial
lawyer from that perspective, when you find an empty box
of cold medicine and you know that the suspect is
saying I took the cold medicine, I was to my mind,
(38:00):
I didn't know what I was doing. I would want
to know this one. You got an empty box. Where
is the bottle of cold medicine? Did he throw that away?
If he did throw that away, why where is it?
Or is it tablet form which I doubt was there
any left? Do we have any idea how much he
(38:21):
had taken? If there was any left? Also, when did
he buy it? If he bought it a month before,
the fact that it's empty now would go towards a defense.
Is there a receipt? Can we narrow down when where
it was purchased, maybe even get him on video purchasing it.
That not and he drinks the whole bottle. I mean,
there's still a lot to find in order to prove
(38:44):
that he was voluntarily drinking corre siden yes or no, no,
I agree with you. Not only when did he buy it,
but is this something that he buys often? How often
does he buy it and what frequency is he going
to the store to get it. There there's a lot
of issues here here regarding the consumption of this cough
medicine and over what period of time that he actually
consumes it. But again, if he was using it recreationally,
(39:08):
that's going to be a real problem. Uh. You know
when you were talking about the red the red stains
on the sheets, actually that could also be the cough
medicine itself, not only blood. So there's still his course,
Satan read the corsine itself is not red, but depending
on how the dye that you use in the syrup,
it could be read. So that's you know something as well, Um,
(39:33):
he stabbed her and the bad it's blood. More likely
than not it's blood. Obviously back to the facts. Let's see,
I was thinking about the oh yes, oh yes, corsting
cough medicine b P as in blood pressure. What is
that and what if he needs the significance of the BP?
(39:54):
It would obviously be medicine for people who have high
blood pressure because there are certain ingredients and cough medicines
or cold medicines that, for example, one that I won't
say because I know you're gonna give me a hard
time about it, that go ahead plays for example, things
like uh phennel propenolamine and other chemicals with names like
(40:16):
that that can affect blood pressure. Uh. So it's probably
a cough medicine design to people who have hypertension, so
that doesn't affect their blood pressure. Um. Question to you,
Dr Daniel Bober. To be a psychiatrist, you've got to
be an m d. And then more school for psychiatry.
(40:38):
You have to go to medical school before you're a psychiatrist. Correct. Okay,
so what effect? Let me start with the body. What
effect would a bottle of this stuff dude, Well, what
would it do to you? Well, this drug is also
related to drugs like ketamine and PCP. It affects something
called the glutamate system, and it causes a dissociated of
(41:00):
effective dissociative or out of body experience where you actually
become disconnected from your thoughts and from your emotions, so
you're sort of floating in space, so to speak. That's
the kind of effect that it would happen. That's the
kind of effect that you mean you float to the
kitchen and get a butchered in your brain, not in reality?
Uh huh, okay, you know, Joseph Scott Morgan, I mean, really,
(41:26):
have you listened to the night when one call? Did
you listen when I was playing at just Scott or
are you tapping away on your iPad or something? I
had a dream and my wife is dead. You know.
The only other people that say that were O. J. Simpson,
he had a dream, remember that he killed Nicole Brown? Whoopsie,
it was true. And then Amanda Knocks from you know,
(41:50):
her trip in Italy says I had a dream and
I was covering my ears. I heard my roommate screaming
in the next room. Well, of course, she was finally
exonerated on appeal. But when people begin having clairvoyant type
dreams and there happens to be a dead body in
the same house with them, that gives me very nervous.
(42:10):
Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, I'm I'm you know, I'm a
science guy. I'm not interested in dreams. I'm interested in
reality and reality here is that Also in this call,
he alluded to the fact that there was blood. Uh,
he alluded to the fact that he apparently had done this,
that she didn't deserve this. I gotta I gotta commend
(42:33):
to police here. You know what one of the most
impressive things about this okay to me is is the
fact that when you see his intake photo Nancy, he
has what appears to be dried blood on his face,
and that gives me an indication that the police did
not allow him to clean himself up, which is key
in any kind of case like this, because this demonstrates connectivity.
(42:55):
They can demonstrate that he has what appears to be
dried blood on his face, and I think that that
is profound in this case. Also, we can tie the
blood back on his face and also relative to the
sheets if that is blood, which they will do several
tests in order to determine that. That's gonna be a
(43:16):
major key. Well, I mean, I'm telling you right now
it's her blood. Of course, it's her blood. So, uh,
everything's covered in blood. He's covered in blood. Obviously, it
was sling back from and he's lifting the knife to
stab her repeatedly as she's bound to have been fighting
for her life. I mean, I can tell you that.
(43:37):
How does that help me prove a murder Well, I
can tell you this. Uh, we can say that it's
blood all we want to, but from a scientific standpoint,
I want it proved because I want this to be
an airtight case and to demonstrate this I know, I know.
Just take the next step with me, Joe Scott Morrigan,
don't get me started, alright, I've already got bober On here.
(44:00):
But tell me, Joe Scott, just go with me on this.
Let's just pretend, Okay, let's take a tiny baby step
and rationality. Of course, it's her blood. I can already
prove our murder case. How does that help me prove
it even more? Are you saying he should have woken
up out of his dream? What are you trying to
say whether or not he would have woken up. But
(44:20):
I can say that he had some kind of recognition
because he had missed this on the on the nine
eleven tape that he said that he was apparently involved
in this. Now this is gonna be more in a
psychiatrist realm. But I don't know how they're going to
explain this away. What we can tie back is can
we put that knife in his hand and demonstrate that
(44:41):
he is actually facilitating this death. I think that they're
going to be able to do again. This goes to
connectivity between him, the knife, and the defects in her body,
which apparently appeared to be multiple. Ashley, Willcott help me, please?
You know what, throw me a life right here, I'm
floating in a sea of spec culation from Joe Scott
(45:01):
Morgan and Dr Daniel Bober, the forensic psychiatrist. You know,
the reality is there's two of them in the home.
She's stabbed dead, he's covered in blood, and he says, wow,
I was high on core sden I heard it makes
you feel good. I can't believe I did this. It
(45:22):
is and I'm missing something here. I don't and I
mean Ashley when you do a demo, a demonstration in
front of a jury, and you show the velocity needed
to stab her repeatedly, over and over and over. Where
blood's going anywhere? She struggling, She gets out of the bed,
she tries to get away. That didn't wake him up.
I really think it is murder. I do. And if
(45:45):
he had this cold medicine in a system, this is
a violent, violent act. And I think he did it
and then felt remorseful and said, oh what can I say? Oh,
that's right, I did take this cold medicine. I think
he knew he was doing it. I do think they
can prove murder in this case. You know what's interesting,
Ashley Wilcott Um, you're married, you've got children. I think
(46:10):
you'll know what I'm talking about. So he's got a
Bible degree, he could be a pastor. He's doing yards.
She's trying to work from home. You know, the most
dangerous time for a woman in a relationship, as if
she tries to leave. Who's not to say, now, this
(46:30):
is speculation that that night she's like, listen, you know what,
I'm tired of putting your bills. Let's take a little
break for a minute. And um, let's take a separation.
You know, that is the most dangerous time for a woman.
That's when most domestic commicides occur, right am I right about?
(46:51):
I agree? And I think I don't know that because
in her video that she posted just that night, trying
to sell candles from her own business, I'm just trying
to make money anyway, she could she looked I've watched
it a hundred times. She looks happy in her in
her life. But that that means nothing, Ashley. That doesn't
(47:14):
mean anything that she looked happy on a video. And
he could be under a lot of stress because of
the financial needs of the family. And right, all of
those things are true, And who knows what could have
triggered him any conversation she might have had, speculation again,
like you said about separating, about the finances, about the
(47:35):
condition of their marriage, about the state of affairs, any
of those things could have triggered him to react this violently.
And and they're fairly young. I mean they've been married
less than a year. Maybe one morning she woke up
and found out it ain't all that and a bag
of chips, and she's like, whoa wait a minute, this
is not what I signed up for another thing to
(47:58):
Dr Daniel Bober Forensics, psychia risk this stuff. I mean,
here's the deal. You don't need a dope dealer. You
can just go to Walgreens and get um coreseeden because
it tastes like candy. Dr Daniel Baber, tastes like It's true, Nancy.
I mean, people, it just amazed me as a physician,
(48:19):
as an addictive Wait a minute, you're not gonna argue
with me that it tastes like candy. You're not gonna
say something like, well, you know, I can't say myself
that it tastes like it tastes like candy. Is like
anything you want, Nancy. You can put anything any flavoring
you want. But the point is is that it's amazed
to me that people will find anything to abuse, whether
it's Benadrill, whether it's core Siton and it's you know
(48:40):
it's or suit of fed. It's right on your shelf.
You don't, like you said, you don't need a dope dealer.
You don't need to go to go into a back alley.
You can just go into a Walgreens or a CBS
that's right there. To Dave mac has he been formally
charged and felts we charged with murder. He's being held
at the White County without bail and facing life in
(49:01):
prison or even the death penalty. We have our eye
on a rolling North Carolina courtroom waiting for the latest
Nancy Grace crime stories. Signing off goodbye friend. In need
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Host
Nancy Grace
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