January 10, 2025 • 41 mins
On a Tuesday afternoon, a driver in the 700 block of 15th street in Miami Beach sees a 6-year-old boy running across 15th street, unsupervised and in a high traffic area. Calling 911, the driver relates what he is seeing, and officers arrive on scene in a matter of minutes. Police see the child leaving an apartment complex by himself and ask the boy where he lives. The child leads the officers to his apartment to show them he isn't lost and the apartment door is answered by the oldest person in the apartment, the boys 12-year-old sister.
Officers find there are a total of five children in the apartment between the ages of 6 and 12, with no adults in the home. The officers report a strong odor of urine, the children are not bathed, their clothes are dirty and there is no food in the house. The apartment doesn't have a functioning stove, no electricity, and no working toilet. . Asking the children if they are hungry, they all say 'yes' and tell the police their last meal had been around 10 p.m. the night before.
The children tell the police they have been without electricity for around two months. Trying to locate their parents, the children tell the police they have no way of contacting their mother, but they know she works at a hotel in Miami. They don't know where their father works.
Police officers finally contact the children's mother, Azra Nikocevic and get her to come to the police station. Officers question Nikocevic about what the children have told them about going to bed hungry and having no electricity. She tells investigators the electricity to their apartment has been cut off for about 6 weeks because they got behind on the bill. She also tells investigators she is trying to get assistance with food stamps but denies depriving her children of food.
Azra Nikocevic and Sanel Canovic are arrested after leaving their five children ages six to 12 unattended in a filthy apartment with no food, no electricity, and no working toilet. The mother gave a statement to police and denies depriving her children of food while the children's father refused to speak to police without an attorney. Both are charged with five felony child neglect charges, and the children were taken into protective custody while authorities investigate.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Derek Smith - Criminal Defense Attorney, www.dwsmithlegal.com
- Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski - Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides", darksides.podia.com, YouTube: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski, Forensic Psychologist
- Officer Christopher Bess - Miami Beach Police Department
- Dr. Michelle DuPre - Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: “Money, Mischief, and Murder: The Murdaugh Dynasty...the Rest of the Story" ; "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide", Forensic Consultant DMichelleDupreMD.com
- Paula Rohde - Child abuse/welfare consultant and expert, Former Child Protective Services Administrator for Orange County, CA. abuse and neglect investigations. Paula Rohde Consulting LLC, Twitter: @PaulaRohde2.
- Chelsea Jones - Weekend Evening Anchor / Reporter at CBS News Miami, Emmy Award winner for 2024 National coverage of the Stanley Cup Finals, website: www.cbsmiami.com, X, IG and FB: @ChelseaJonesTV
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Parents dine out and leave their five children at home
to starve. Mommy says she's too focused on her job.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Let me understand this. So they're out, what are they having?
A steak and potato waffle house? Chipotle? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
They're out together, Mommy and daddy yucking it up, ordering
whatever they want while they're five children are emaciated, starving
at home. I'm Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Five children hungry, home alone with no electricity and clogged toilet.
Where's mommy and daddy?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Well, I know where they are. They're at the Golden Corral, Chipotele,
you name it. That's where they are. Their children at home,
starving with the commode running over with feces. That's where
the children are. When asked, mommy says, oh, I've been
too focused on my job. Really, that's something I think
(01:13):
mommy should think about. Behind bars and Daddy, you're not
off the hook either. Take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
On a Tuesday afternoon, a driver in the seven hundred
block of fifteenth Street in Miami Beach sees a six
year old boy running across fifteenth Street, unsupervised and in
a high traffic area. Calling nine to one one, the
driver relates what he's seeing and officers arrive on the
scene in a matter of minutes. Police see the child
leaving an apartment complex by himself and asks the boy
where he lives. The child leads the officers to his
(01:40):
apartment to show them he isn't lost, and the apartment
door is answered by the oldest person in the apartment,
the boy's twelve year old sister.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning right now. But from what I understand,
a six year old little boy that's first or second
grade max is running on stamprovised across a street in
a high traffic area.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Let's just start with that.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
A driver happens to see the boy running, calls nine
to one one. Then when police respond, they find the
boy skin and bones, you know, straight out to Officer
Christopher Bess, who is joining us out of Miami Beach
(02:29):
with the PD Police Department, Sadly, Officer, there's never a
lack of business when it comes to mistreated children, Isn't
that true?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Unfortunately, this is an extremely heartbreaking case. While others were
ringing in the new year. We had five kids who
didn't know where their next meal will come from.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Or an email for that matter.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Joining me, Officer Christopher Bess just question, does he Mighty
ever ask you that?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Do you ever just get sick of it?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Because you know, I remember prosecuting felonies for every ten
years in intercity Atlanta, And I remember the moment I
had the whole courtroom, I turned off the lights. I
was doing a slide presentation to the jury. It was
a serial murder. I could get them on one, just one,
so it had to work. I had a picture up
(03:18):
of the victim and at that moment I didn't know
how much more I could take her head. Her scalp
had to be during autopsy, pulled back so you could
see the contusions under her scalp. And I remember that
moment thinking, I don't know how much more I can take.
(03:41):
How I'm so saturated with it? Do you ever feel
like that?
Speaker 6 (03:44):
Best?
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Absolutely so. Unfortunately these particular cases happened more often than not.
Our detectives from the Special Victims Unit, our responding officers
are really still having a difficult time with going about
their day to day after seeing just the very sad
(04:06):
conditions these kids are living at.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I want to go straight out.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I'm about to go to a very well known anchor
and reporter at CBS News Miami. I'll also report she's
an Emmy Award winner, by the way, But I want
to go to Derek Smith, high profile criminal defense attorney
who has represented parents in similar cases.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Derek Smith, you know, I look at your trial record.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
You win a lot of cases, you have a lot
of clients, You're successful.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Is there ever a moment you walk out of your
office and state I'm going to vomit? I can't take
one more case like this.
Speaker 7 (04:46):
Of course, yeah, you'll have that. I mean emotions when
there's children involved, obviously. I mean, this isn't near one
of the worst cases that I've seen. It's been really
saying that, Rory, Derek, I don't think so. I mean,
the parents are trying to do what they can. They're earning,
they're making a living, They're trying their kids have shelter,
(05:06):
you know, electricity, no food. I've read the skilter.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
My rear end control room. Could I please see the
picture of the two parents in court with their defense attorney.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
You just showed it. There you go.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Hey, they haven't missed a meal. They're doing fine, Derek Smith,
They're out. Each one has their own private lawyer. What's
happening here? I don't get it. They're fine. Their children
are skin and bones and running in the traffic.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Do you have children, Derek, Yes, Nancy, I have four
of them.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I bet they're not running out in the middle of
a busy intersection starving.
Speaker 7 (05:48):
Well, no comment, let's focus on them. But so I
have a you know, my first son I share with
with my ex wife, and sometimes we get into discussions
about what we're feeding them, is it appropriate or whatnot.
I'll make a beautiful dinner, chicken broccoli, you want, want it?
He wants McDonald's, he wants chicken nuggets.
Speaker 8 (06:05):
You know what.
Speaker 7 (06:06):
I'm sorry, You're going to eat what I've provided is
healthy and if you don't want it, you can go
to bed. And I've read image to hear.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That your children are at least eiding and they have
the choice to turn down the broccoli. But you know,
to you Chelsea Jones Ammy Award winner investigative reporter and anchor,
CBS News Miami, these children didn't have the chance to
turn down broccoli at dinner. You think they turned down broccoli.
(06:33):
They'd eat any scrap they could find. Tell me about
this little boy six years old? Now, does that put
him in first or second grade? It kind of depends
on his birthday, whether he's even going to school. Running
out in an intersection, a heavily trafficked intersection.
Speaker 9 (06:50):
So the woman who called police and found this six
year old boy, it's actually what they learned when police
went back to the home from the eldest child. That
kind of gave a picture of what these children a
community basis a rust. Documents show that the eldest child,
who is twelve, told police they hadn't eaten since the
(07:11):
day before. This is New Year's Eve, so she says
on the thirtieth, at ten pm was their last meal.
Speaker 10 (07:16):
And then she also told police.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
No, wait, just a moment, hold on, Chelsea, I'm taking
from the firehengeant.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right now. You're giving me so much information.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I don't want to miss one fact, okay, because I
plan to use everything you tell me. I plan to
use all that scrap metal and turn it into a
bullet to shoot right at these two parents. It all
started when the little six year old runs out into traffic.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Is that right, correct? Okay?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Officer Christopher Bess is joining us, Miami Beach PD. Bess,
this is called heavily trafficked. Tell me about the intersection
because I'm having nightmares. There's one thing about running across
the street where you live. You know, it's a single
name as opposed to Third Avenue in lex in Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Okay, describe this heavily trafficked area, correct.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
So it is an enormous intersection and it is utilized
pretty heavily by buhicle traffic and also other pedestrian traffic
as well. So this is something that the boy and
also the other victims we learned would do quite often.
(08:30):
They didn't have electricity, so they would navigate this intersection
quite often, going to the park and other areas of
the city. Again, just to do what normal kids would do.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Two forensics psychologists joining us, Doctor Jeff Kelishevski, author of
Dark Sides.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
On YouTube.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You can find him doctor Jeff Klshewski, forensic psychologist, Doctor Jeff,
thank you for being with us. I find it very
difficult to take him okay, because as my children came
home from the nick kid at five pounds and two pounds.
My life's mission is to keep them happy and well
(09:08):
fed and safe. So how do the parents go chow
down at Chipotle or Golden Corral when their children are
running in the street with their bones poking out?
Speaker 6 (09:20):
Right?
Speaker 11 (09:20):
You know, I've been involved in literally thousands of neglect
and abuse cases as a forensic psychologist, and many times,
you know, when you see neglect like this, there may
be substance abuse, so there may be mental illness or
even a lack of knowledge to parent. But occasionally you
will run into these parents that are so self centered,
(09:42):
so caught up in their own lives that the children
are secondary to the point where the kids are harmed.
And you know, I wonder about this case is it's
a case of sort of narcissistic and self centered people.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Hold on, okay, you're giving I mean, la, what do
you mean the child is secondary? That could mean anything.
The children are starving. I don't know why you call
that secondary. That's certainly famistic. You're putting perfume on the pig.
The children were starving. The kommodes are overflowing with faces.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
You know what that is, right? Crap poop?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, and they're living there in the cold while mommy
and daddy are dining out at a restaurant. What a
secondary mean?
Speaker 11 (10:30):
That's not what I mean by secondary. They're so caught
up in their own life and what they want. The
kids are a second thought. They don't even want to
feed the kids. As long as they're fed, maybe like
maybe they'll leave some money for the kids, or maybe
they'll just forget about the kids because they're well fed
(10:51):
and happy and doing their own thing, and the kids.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Are marking on them right now. Kealshevski, Uh, you know
what I need? Any doctor Michelle Dupree is joining us.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
You know her well.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
She's shot to fame during the Alex Murdog double murder trial,
but in my world, the world of crime, she was
already famous. Forensic pathologists, medical examiner, and guess what, also
former detective author of Money, Mischief and Murder The Murdog Dynasty.
The rest of the story and more important for me
(11:26):
Field guide for Child abuse investigation, Child Abuse Investigation field
guide and homicide Investigation Field Guide.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Doctor Dupree, thank you for taking time to be with us.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
How long do you have to starve a child before
their ribs and their bones starts showing through their skin.
Speaker 12 (11:48):
Nancy, A child normally would starve to death in three
to four weeks, and so they're going to be exhibiting
signs of that. They're going to get very skinny, all
sorts of other symptoms and are going to be there. So,
you know, two to three weeks and that's it. You know, child,
A person cannot go very long without water three days
(12:08):
or so, but food maybe three or four weeks. This
is so egregious, and unfortunately, this is not that uncommon.
I have dealt with many child abuse neglect cases all
over the country, really, and we see this more often
than we want.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
You know, I'm catching on one thing, you know, doctor Deprie.
It's my job to martial evidence, to determine what I
can prove whether that evidence is admissible in front of
a jury, because if it's not, it means nothing to me.
But I just heard you say it could take two
to three weeks before a child's bones are actually sticking out. Okay,
Derek Smith, back to you. You're a veteran trial lawyer
(12:48):
right there. I would have a field day with these
parents because it's not an isolated incident where one night
they didn't get supper.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
They're not steaming broccoli, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And the steamer like you do for your children, this
took at least two to three weeks to methodically starve them.
Speaker 7 (13:08):
Well, you mentioned evidence, and this we need. You mentioned evidence.
This is how we try cases, is how we figure
out GUILDENNI since we use evidence, testimony, and right here,
the children are the ones telling the police they went
to bed hungary that night, because as the mother said
when they questioned her, they don't go to bed hungry
at night. They just didn't want raising canes or she
(13:29):
didn't want to feed a McDonald's and the children didn't
want to eat anything but that. So that's a different argument.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I'm starting to see your defense here. So you're saying
the children want to McDonald's, and her being such a
good mommy, she goes, oh, no fast food for you.
How about no food for you one night? Are refusing
McDonald's does not a starving child make And you better
know right now, my children have never gone to bed
(13:57):
without plenty of food a verb.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So you're saying that in this case.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Now, I get While you were talking about your son
wanting McDonald's as opposed to broccoli, you're saying that mommy
is such a good mommy, she wouldn't feed her children
fast food. You do know that's bs right in the
real world. Maybe in criminal defense world as great. I
wouldn't buy that if an angel flew down from heaven
(14:24):
and tried to sell.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It to me.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
You're saying they went to bed hungry because mommy didn't
want them to have McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Is that your defense right now?
Speaker 7 (14:32):
Hey, Nancy, i'd point of the evidence, and right now
the evidence we have is testimony from the child and
testimony from the parents, and furthermore of you if you
look into what they were talking about to the police.
They're in school. The school provides them with food, So
how do they get to this point? I mean what
they're right break.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Still is.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So what you're saying, mommy and daddy are not responsible
for breakfast and lunch because the children can get that
as school.
Speaker 7 (14:58):
I mean, if they're provided food from the school, how
are they getting to this point?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Let me just say, yes, this officer, Bess, I got
to give this to Derek Smith. He wins a lot
of cases, and now I see why he's got this
good guy. Look at me when I lie to you appearance,
and he makes it seem like, hey, she's just a
good mom.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
She didn't want them to have beast food.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Officer, Bess, you know, you might almost fall for it
unless you had been one of the cops answering that
call and you see the child, thin thin running in
the street and you go to the home. Tell me, Bess,
what was found in the home?
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Well, Daniel, what we were able to discover in the
home is there was no functioning stove, So even if
the parents felt as though they wanted to cook broccoli,
they didn't even have the audacity to fix the basic
necessities such as a stove in the home. Furthermore, there
was no food inside of the refrigerator. So these kids
(16:07):
not only have to fend for themselves, but the foods
and the meals that were provided in the schools were
the only source of nourishment they really had.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
You know, And a lot of schools, I don't know
if you know this, Chelsea Jones, but a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Of schools they don't let you come back for seconds.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
And then for some children if they do go back
for seconds, they get made fun of.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Did you know that? Yes?
Speaker 10 (16:34):
I mean that's I think another thing else.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Isn't it true that this was during a break the
children didn't have food at school?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I had nothing, correct.
Speaker 9 (16:45):
One of the children, the eldest child, also told police
that on occasion when mom and dad were out, they
would leave about twenty dollars for them to eat at
home and they would take the which is two bacon
cheeseburgers and three mcchickens, totaling around nineteen bucks to eat.
And that was not every day, that was on occasion,
(17:08):
your point, they were on a holiday break, which then
made meals even more sparse than normal.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Parents face charges after five children found living in squalid
conditions with no food.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Joining me an all star panel, and we've got a
veteran trial lawyer Derek Smith trying to make the best
argument he can for these two Chelsea Jones joining us
Evening anchor investigative reporter CBS needs Miami, Chelsea, any idea
where are the parents so go chow down for dinner.
Speaker 10 (17:39):
That isn't immediately available?
Speaker 9 (17:42):
And when I asked the mom, that wasn't something that
she indicated to me exactly where they were when this
all took place.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, he's joining me right now. In addition to our
All Star Panel. Paula Roady is joining US child abuse
welfare consultant, an expert former CPS Chop Protector Services in
Orange County. She's at Paula Roady Consulting. Paula, thank you
for being with us. I was just talking before you
(18:11):
joined us to doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner and pathologist,
and she says it would take two to three weeks
for a child to exhibit evidence, physical evidence that you
could just look at and see that the child is starving.
Two to three weeks. These are five children. Occasionally, occasionally
(18:37):
mommy and daddy would leave a twenty dollars bill, and
I guess the children are supposed to run out in
the traffic, five children and try to find something to eat.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I don't know if you heard what they could get.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It was like two cheeseburgers and some McNuggets and five
of them would have to split that. And that was
only on occasion, Paula, I mean, I'm hearing more and more.
I first really found out about food denial as a
former child abuse. In the past couple of years, I
(19:08):
saw plenty of child abuse, children beaten their bones broken, murdered,
burned with cigarettes. You know, of course sex abuse that
goes without saying raped. But I had not encountered or
was not trained enough to realize what I was seeing.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Denial of food as child abuse.
Speaker 13 (19:28):
Paula, Yes, it's actually would fall under severe neglect because
the health and safety the life of a child is
immediately in danger with that severe withholding of essential necessities
food among everything else. And I would say everything else,
(19:51):
I mean the conditions of the home, the children having
dirty and ill fitting clothes, no supervision, left alone. And
what I'm curious about is where were the protective adults
such as teachers. You have them a reference to a
(20:11):
school uniform, so they're not homeschooled, where children have less
access to protective adults.
Speaker 14 (20:18):
But you have teachers, you have relatives, you have the landlord,
if they were living in an apartment, you have neighbors.
Speaker 13 (20:26):
And I would not be surprised if there have been
reports made to child protective Services about the conditions and
concerns to these children.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Previously crime stories with Nancy Grace, just recently a high
profile case including starvation. I've not one, but all the
children came to the forefront of the knee in our country.
(21:01):
Now you look at these two parents, they haven't missed
a meal. But what about this woman watcher?
Speaker 15 (21:08):
It Scott a text message from Eve's teacher and she
said that Eve did not pack a lunch today and
can I bring a lunch over to the school. This
happens quite often when you're having raising children, because I
know that her teacher is uncomfortable with her being hungry
(21:31):
and not having a lunch, and it would ease her
discomfort if I came to the school with lunch. But
I responded and just said Eve is responsible for making
her lunches in the morning, and she actually told me
she did pack a lunch. So the natural outcome is
she's just going to need to be hungry and hopefully,
(21:54):
hopefully nobody gives her food, and nobody steps in and
gives her a lunch.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
The teacher uncomfortable, uncomfortable just looking at her.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
That's Ruby Frankie, who shot to stardom with a mommy
blog and then her own show that was from the
official eight Passengers on YouTube. It went from her fame
and glory giving parental advice to millions of followers to.
Speaker 16 (22:24):
This right, I'm on the address of your emergency. Okay,
and that's pun number you're calling from. I me exactly
what's happened.
Speaker 8 (22:34):
I just had a twelve year old boy show up
here at my front door asking for help. And he's
said he had just came from a neighbor's house, and
we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated,
he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty.
Speaker 16 (22:53):
Okay, he is your door locked?
Speaker 8 (22:56):
No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front page.
And he asked us to call the police. So he's
very afraid and he's twelve years old.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
You can hear the neighbor break down, crying as he
sees the starving boy of Ruby Frankie. And in the
photos we're showing you, we're not we're not even showing
you the worst because these children were bound and tied up.
(23:31):
Take a listen to more of that nine one one call.
Speaker 8 (23:33):
She's a she's a bad lady. We didn't realize how bad.
Speaker 16 (23:38):
I'm just asking where he is. Well, sounds like he's
making a phone call real quick to a sergeant. He
is going to head up.
Speaker 8 (23:46):
Okay, all right, Well, if we have to take it
inside the house. We will just we're just sitting outside
right now because we have chairs out here, and its convenient.
Speaker 16 (23:55):
That the thing, if anything, he's sitting out down your
driveway and keeping an eye on the house. That's where
you feel safe, That's where the child feel safe. So
let's just stay where you're at. Does he have anything
with him?
Speaker 8 (24:05):
No, he's run a long sleeve shirt and shorts and
it's a way too big for him.
Speaker 16 (24:11):
Can you tell me what color the short surt?
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Okay, the ambulance is here.
Speaker 16 (24:15):
Are they with you?
Speaker 8 (24:17):
No, they're just not getting out of the truck.
Speaker 16 (24:19):
Okay, I'll go ahead and I'll let you go. Then
you did a great job, Dodger.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Michelle Dupree. I don't know if you could see the
images that we are showing our viewers right now. But
who could see these children and not know something was
horribly wrong? Teachers, administrators, neighbors, tenants. Nobody said a thing,
(24:43):
Doctor Dupree, How long would a child starve to get
to the point of Ruby Frankie's children. You saw the
bones protruding, almost about to break through the skin.
Speaker 12 (24:56):
Well, Nancy, it would be about the same thing and
of course, everything is dependent upon the child individually, but again,
three to four weeks something like that, and this is
a chronic thing obviously in these children. This is not
an overnight thing or a one time event. This is
something that's been going on for a long time, and
it's disgusting.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
A child leads officers to siblings with no food, no electricity,
and dirty clothes while the parents are actually dining out,
leaving their children to starve.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Come o running over with feces, no clean clothes, the
place is cold. We find out that the parents have jobs,
they have money, they have food.
Speaker 17 (25:40):
Listen looking around the apartment, officers discover the toilet contains
stagnant water and feces, and there is no toilet paper.
The children tell police they have been without electricity for
around two months. Trying to locate their parents, the children
tell police they have no way of contacting their mother,
but they know she works at a hotel in Miami.
They don't know where their father works.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
And then police find out more.
Speaker 18 (26:01):
As officers talk to the children and look at the apartment,
it is apparent things are even worse than it seems.
All five children share a single full sized bed and
lack clean clothing. Officers also note a strong order of soiling,
and the twelve year old girl tells them her parents
haven't washed clothes for a couple of weeks, so they
just wear what they have.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
So let me understand this, officer Christopher Best joining us
from Miami Beach PD.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So, not only do they not give the.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Children food, the children are starving while they're down the
street at Golden Corral, but they don't wash the clothes either.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
The parents go to work every day, their clothes are clean.
I mean they've gotten to know this is wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
It's not like they don't understand what they're doing wrong
because their clothes are clean.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
They have food.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Absolutely, So ourmscation revealed that not only do the parents
have jobs, but the mother makes about fourteen hundred dollars
a week. When the kid express concerns over having food
and clothing, the children to our investigators that it depended
on the mood. The twelve year old and all instered
(27:10):
purposes were like the guardian of her other siblings. She
would advocate for them. She would ask her mother and
or father for additional money, and she told our detectives
it all depended on their mood, whether they wanted to
feed us or not, when they would go out to
Lincoln Road or Ocean Drive to dine out and have
dinner or have takeout, whenever they would ask for more
(27:33):
if it was all depending on how the parents felt
in that moment.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Isn't it true that she said she was too focused
on her job to feed her children.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Absolutely, that's also what detectives uncovered. And I want to
make it very clear these parents do exactly what they
were doing. This was very intentional based on the physical
evidence and also the testimony of both parents and children.
This was a chronic issue that stemmed from New York.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So they had been flagged in New York. What exactly
happened when they were in New York.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
So there was an open case of child neglect in
New York. CPS took away the kids while they were there.
Once they went through the process of regaining custody of
their children, they relocated down here in Miami Beach, and
apparently the same vicious cycle continued. One of the victims
(28:29):
in this case, I could sell their cell phone for
twenty dollars because that's what they're accustomed to, just to
provide food for their kids during a break when their
parents refused to provide them with the twenty dollars outside
of the mills that they were seeing in school.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
So very disturbing case lay stars. So one of them
had a cell phone and had to sell it for food.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Absolutely, guys, listen to this.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
At the police station, the children are being fed twell
of your old girl explains. Occasionally they get deep food
their parents bring home. The girl explains to police that
her mother would occasionally leave them a twenty dollars bill
to buy food, and she would buy two bacon cheeseburgers
and three mad chicken sandwiches for McDonald's to feed all
five of the children. The parents frequently leave the children
at home without food while they go out to eat
(29:17):
dinner on an emergency.
Speaker 16 (29:19):
What are you reporting? So this is no one one
day of an emergency.
Speaker 19 (29:27):
I just got to leave them home because I love
when the family of sixteen okay, can you hear me?
And we have a busing Paris?
Speaker 13 (29:40):
Did you hear that?
Speaker 19 (29:41):
Okay?
Speaker 16 (29:41):
How did they abuse you?
Speaker 19 (29:43):
Okay? They hate us betas crooks. They like throats, cross roots,
They pull our hair, they beginker our hair. I have
two my two little sisters right now are chained up.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
One Terpin child manages to escape through a window after
years of abuse and get to make a nine to
one call. You saw that photo of all the children
in matching outfits. The Turpin parents would do this. They
would stage photos and force the children to behave in
(30:20):
a certain way in front of the camera, dressing them
all alike in a choreographed photo to send out.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
But at home, as is now.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Dubbed the House of Horrors, listen, David and Louise Terpin
live in Paris, California, with their thirteen children, raging in
age from two to twenty nine. The Turbans in prison
and beat their children, only allowing them to eat once
a day and bathe once a year. The parents would
buy food for themselves, but their kids weren't allowed to
eat it. When seventeen year old Jordan escapes out a window,
(30:50):
she calls nine one one and tells the dispatcher she
and her siblings are being abused by their parents and
that the smell in the house is so bad sometimes
she can barely breathe. She also says two of her
sisters and one of her brothers are currently changed to
their beds. David and Louise Turban plead guilty and her
sentence to life in prison.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Rot in hell.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Turpin parents, they're behind bars where they belong. But guess
what they're getting Three hots and a cock, something they
deprived their children of for years until again their bones
were literally literally sticking out, almost about to puncture the skin.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Another issue there with the Turpins. Listen to this, what
about this, doctor Jeff Kalashevski.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
They would buy pies at the deli, in the grocery store,
apple pies, pumpkin pies and.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
More and leave them out.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Then they would unchain the children and let them out
of closets, and they would let them.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Come down and see the food, but not let them
eat it.
Speaker 11 (31:50):
Right, that's beyond the gluck. That's sadistic psychological abuse, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
You know. I'm just wondering what part of hell is
for people like this. Crime stories with Nancy Grace Derek Smith.
Please don't think I'm picking on you just because you
(32:17):
represent people like this that starve their children.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
What do you do in a case like this?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
And look, I'm giving you a hard time, but you're
very successful. You know the Constitution like the back of
your hands. You know the rules of evidence, backwards and forwards,
like there your alphabet. But how can you get parents
off in a case like the one we're looking at
right now.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Forget about the turpins. They've already played guilty. They got
a one way ticket to hell.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
But how would you argue the current case, the case
in chief we're discussing.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
I think that the biggest issue here would be intent.
I mean, what was the parent's intent here? I know
the detective mentioned that, you know, some past issues in
New York could point to a pattern of behavior with them.
But I mean, there's no evidence of physical abuse, which
is good. I understand that we have some evidence that
the mother is employed and what money she's making. However,
what are their expenses?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
There's no well that the parents not paying the electric
bill and the grocery bill is next to nothing.
Speaker 7 (33:21):
Well, I mean grocery sts you know, are expensive nowadays,
and you got five kids to feed here in this case.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Okay, you need to stop right there. You need to stop. Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I was supporting you and your representation because it's allowed
under the constitution appearance that starve their children. But to
say with a straight face, Grocery bills are expensive. They're
eating out, man, they're paying for a restaurant food.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You know what I grew up. We never got to
go to a restaurant.
Speaker 19 (33:46):
Eh.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
We ate home every night because we couldn't afford to
go to a restaurant.
Speaker 7 (33:51):
Well, obviously they can't cook at home if they don't
have that working stuff stole. But they may have an
air fryer, they may have a microwave, other ways that
they can prepare the food for the children. But they
don't go to school.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
They can list on you.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Okay, so you're saying grocery bills, I got to write
this down. Grocery bills cost a lot. That's gonna work
with a jury, Good.
Speaker 7 (34:11):
Luck with that.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
And the stove's not working. Why is it the stove working?
Stove's not working, Derek, because mommy and daddy are spending
the money on themselves. You saw them. They ain't missed
a meal, man, They can get back and forth to work.
The mom's making seventy two grand a year for Pete's sake.
The reason they can't cook is because they aren't paying
(34:35):
for heat and air conditioned, much less.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
A stove in the home.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But I can see where you're going, and you know
I asked for that, you gave it to me. That's
what your defense would be. Although I think the mom
not wanting them to eat snack food or fast food.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That might work a little bit better. But I want
you to hear this. Derek Smith.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Police asked the children if they were hungry and fed them.
As police interview the twelve year old, she utters some
very telling information. The parents would frequently share an evening
meal without providing food for the children, and they would
often leave the children at home while they went out
to dinner. The girl says the siblings often went to
bed hungary.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You know, Chelsea Jones joining us evening anchor investigative reporter
CBS needs Miami.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
She won an Emmy. That ain't easy, Chelsea. I mean,
what can you tell me about these two parents. The
dad had a job. I just don't know what his
job is yet.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
The mom had a really good job at a hotel
in Miami, So that tells me she had to go
back and forth. She probably had a car so she
could afford transportation, eating out, clothes to wear to work,
the whole shebang, but not food for her children and
the apartment was like a hellhole.
Speaker 9 (35:55):
Yeah, it's unclear based on what police had told us
at this point and revealed how she got to work,
but they report that she worked at Moxie Hotel, which
is also one to beat, so she could be getting
there by foot. However, when I talked to her, she
was really emphasizing the fact that she made a mistake.
She did confirm that she was from New York and
(36:17):
that her children never went to bed hungry and that
at the end of the day they just weren't hungry,
despite what has been revealed by.
Speaker 10 (36:27):
Police that these children were not eating and were being neglected.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Chelsea, did you say the mom said her children never
went to bed hungry?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Correct? Oh, I can't wait to have the jury to
hear that.
Speaker 9 (36:38):
What I asked her specifically about the twenty dollars that
she would sometimes supply in the food that they were
able to get with only twenty dollars for the five kids,
and she said that wasn't true and that they often
just didn't want what she would allow.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Take care of your.
Speaker 6 (36:55):
Kids, I let the job. I was focusing more on
the job than the kids, and it got some of
like the career and stuff, but just take care of
your kids and you know, love them as.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Much as you can.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
What you were hearing mommy Azra Nikosovic speaking to our
Chelsea Jones, investigative reporter anchor CBS Miami. Did I just
hear her correctly? Chelsea?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Did she actually tell you I was focusing more on
the job and the career.
Speaker 20 (37:29):
What that was?
Speaker 10 (37:29):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yes? And that's not all she said.
Speaker 10 (37:32):
Listen, Please say they found you know the plumbing wasn't on.
The electricity you hadn't been on for two months.
Speaker 6 (37:36):
The kids say, correct, the electricity was all for like
a month and a half and the toilet was clogged.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
But I'll fix everything. Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
If she ever does fix it, it's because the court
will make her fix it. But here is mommy along
with Daddy in court.
Speaker 21 (37:52):
I'm going to say, I'll find Noble Claus. I do
find it for all five counts.
Speaker 20 (37:58):
If you'd be so implied for pre trial service for
all five counts, considering mission that COVID the Koachovik's lack.
Speaker 21 (38:05):
Of criminal history, what's your position?
Speaker 8 (38:10):
See?
Speaker 20 (38:12):
Given though this, the state doesn't feel like this should
be a good bit on the infarmers. The the listed
address where the living has no electricity, no standing. Third
precaution asines on.
Speaker 21 (38:31):
Bust one bond of twenty five hundred dollars. That's the
standard bond. I'll set that for count one or more
on the other counts. It's all for the same same
Act two accounts two, three, four and five or or
or count one twenty.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
He's playing what you're hearing right now. The defense attorney,
he's pulling a Derek Smith right there.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Ask for a PTS.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know what that is.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
We just got PTI preached.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
That's where there's no criminal case, and the defendants go
to some classes like parenting classes, and then everything's dropped
and the prosecutor, thank goodness, said no, and they have
walked out on twenty five hundred dollars bond.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Translation, that's two hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
They have to put up and are released on your
own recognissance.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
In other words, you don't have to pay anything.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Just go back out there, okay to Paula ROADI joining
me former Child Protective Services, now Paula Roady consulting.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
And it just keeps on and on and on. Second verse,
same as the first.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
These two are out r R probably at Chipotle right now,
probably having a mistake somewhere. Maybe they're out back, I
don't know, after starving their children.
Speaker 14 (39:54):
Yes, it's it's criminal and they were arrested. So and
I think that next step with regards to the Child
Protective Services is to request of the juvenile court that
the parents undergo a In California, it's called a evidentiary
(40:17):
psychological evaluation.
Speaker 10 (40:19):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was with you until you said that the parents
get to have a shrink paid by me, the taxpayer.
You know what, I don't need a shrink to know
that they are self centered and they are sadistic, watching
their children day by day starve. Chelsea Jones joining me
(40:44):
CBS Need's Miami. What's next for mommy and daddy.
Speaker 9 (40:48):
What Mom told me when I spoke to her was
that she was going to fight to get custody of
her five kids back.
Speaker 10 (40:54):
And we have yet to hear from the father.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
At this point, we wait as justice and folds. Nancy
Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Parents dine out and leave their five children at home
to starve. Mommy says she's too focused on her job.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Let me understand this. So they're out, what are they having?
A steak and potato waffle house? Chipotle? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
They're out together, Mommy and daddy yucking it up, ordering
whatever they want while they're five children are emaciated, starving
at home. I'm Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Five children hungry, home alone with no electricity and clogged toilet.
Where's mommy and daddy?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Well, I know where they are. They're at the Golden Corral, Chipotele,
you name it. That's where they are. Their children at home,
starving with the commode running over with feces. That's where
the children are. When asked, mommy says, oh, I've been
too focused on my job. Really, that's something I think
(01:13):
mommy should think about. Behind bars and Daddy, you're not
off the hook either. Take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
On a Tuesday afternoon, a driver in the seven hundred
block of fifteenth Street in Miami Beach sees a six
year old boy running across fifteenth Street, unsupervised and in
a high traffic area. Calling nine to one one, the
driver relates what he's seeing and officers arrive on the
scene in a matter of minutes. Police see the child
leaving an apartment complex by himself and asks the boy
where he lives. The child leads the officers to his
(01:40):
apartment to show them he isn't lost, and the apartment
door is answered by the oldest person in the apartment,
the boy's twelve year old sister.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning right now. But from what I understand,
a six year old little boy that's first or second
grade max is running on stamprovised across a street in
a high traffic area.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Let's just start with that.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
A driver happens to see the boy running, calls nine
to one one. Then when police respond, they find the
boy skin and bones, you know, straight out to Officer
Christopher Bess, who is joining us out of Miami Beach
(02:29):
with the PD Police Department, Sadly, Officer, there's never a
lack of business when it comes to mistreated children, Isn't
that true?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Unfortunately, this is an extremely heartbreaking case. While others were
ringing in the new year. We had five kids who
didn't know where their next meal will come from.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Or an email for that matter.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Joining me, Officer Christopher Bess just question, does he Mighty
ever ask you that?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Do you ever just get sick of it?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Because you know, I remember prosecuting felonies for every ten
years in intercity Atlanta, And I remember the moment I
had the whole courtroom, I turned off the lights. I
was doing a slide presentation to the jury. It was
a serial murder. I could get them on one, just one,
so it had to work. I had a picture up
(03:18):
of the victim and at that moment I didn't know
how much more I could take her head. Her scalp
had to be during autopsy, pulled back so you could
see the contusions under her scalp. And I remember that
moment thinking, I don't know how much more I can take.
(03:41):
How I'm so saturated with it? Do you ever feel
like that?
Speaker 6 (03:44):
Best?
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Absolutely so. Unfortunately these particular cases happened more often than not.
Our detectives from the Special Victims Unit, our responding officers
are really still having a difficult time with going about
their day to day after seeing just the very sad
(04:06):
conditions these kids are living at.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I want to go straight out.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I'm about to go to a very well known anchor
and reporter at CBS News Miami. I'll also report she's
an Emmy Award winner, by the way, But I want
to go to Derek Smith, high profile criminal defense attorney
who has represented parents in similar cases.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Derek Smith, you know, I look at your trial record.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
You win a lot of cases, you have a lot
of clients, You're successful.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Is there ever a moment you walk out of your
office and state I'm going to vomit? I can't take
one more case like this.
Speaker 7 (04:46):
Of course, yeah, you'll have that. I mean emotions when
there's children involved, obviously. I mean, this isn't near one
of the worst cases that I've seen. It's been really
saying that, Rory, Derek, I don't think so. I mean,
the parents are trying to do what they can. They're earning,
they're making a living, They're trying their kids have shelter,
(05:06):
you know, electricity, no food. I've read the skilter.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
My rear end control room. Could I please see the
picture of the two parents in court with their defense attorney.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
You just showed it. There you go.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Hey, they haven't missed a meal. They're doing fine, Derek Smith,
They're out. Each one has their own private lawyer. What's
happening here? I don't get it. They're fine. Their children
are skin and bones and running in the traffic.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Do you have children, Derek, Yes, Nancy, I have four
of them.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I bet they're not running out in the middle of
a busy intersection starving.
Speaker 7 (05:48):
Well, no comment, let's focus on them. But so I
have a you know, my first son I share with
with my ex wife, and sometimes we get into discussions
about what we're feeding them, is it appropriate or whatnot.
I'll make a beautiful dinner, chicken broccoli, you want, want it?
He wants McDonald's, he wants chicken nuggets.
Speaker 8 (06:05):
You know what.
Speaker 7 (06:06):
I'm sorry, You're going to eat what I've provided is
healthy and if you don't want it, you can go
to bed. And I've read image to hear.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That your children are at least eiding and they have
the choice to turn down the broccoli. But you know,
to you Chelsea Jones Ammy Award winner investigative reporter and anchor,
CBS News Miami, these children didn't have the chance to
turn down broccoli at dinner. You think they turned down broccoli.
(06:33):
They'd eat any scrap they could find. Tell me about
this little boy six years old? Now, does that put
him in first or second grade? It kind of depends
on his birthday, whether he's even going to school. Running
out in an intersection, a heavily trafficked intersection.
Speaker 9 (06:50):
So the woman who called police and found this six
year old boy, it's actually what they learned when police
went back to the home from the eldest child. That
kind of gave a picture of what these children a
community basis a rust. Documents show that the eldest child,
who is twelve, told police they hadn't eaten since the
(07:11):
day before. This is New Year's Eve, so she says
on the thirtieth, at ten pm was their last meal.
Speaker 10 (07:16):
And then she also told police.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
No, wait, just a moment, hold on, Chelsea, I'm taking
from the firehengeant.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right now. You're giving me so much information.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I don't want to miss one fact, okay, because I
plan to use everything you tell me. I plan to
use all that scrap metal and turn it into a
bullet to shoot right at these two parents. It all
started when the little six year old runs out into traffic.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Is that right, correct? Okay?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Officer Christopher Bess is joining us, Miami Beach PD. Bess,
this is called heavily trafficked. Tell me about the intersection
because I'm having nightmares. There's one thing about running across
the street where you live. You know, it's a single
name as opposed to Third Avenue in lex in Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Okay, describe this heavily trafficked area, correct.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
So it is an enormous intersection and it is utilized
pretty heavily by buhicle traffic and also other pedestrian traffic
as well. So this is something that the boy and
also the other victims we learned would do quite often.
(08:30):
They didn't have electricity, so they would navigate this intersection
quite often, going to the park and other areas of
the city. Again, just to do what normal kids would do.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Two forensics psychologists joining us, Doctor Jeff Kelishevski, author of
Dark Sides.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
On YouTube.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You can find him doctor Jeff Klshewski, forensic psychologist, Doctor Jeff,
thank you for being with us. I find it very
difficult to take him okay, because as my children came
home from the nick kid at five pounds and two pounds.
My life's mission is to keep them happy and well
(09:08):
fed and safe. So how do the parents go chow
down at Chipotle or Golden Corral when their children are
running in the street with their bones poking out?
Speaker 6 (09:20):
Right?
Speaker 11 (09:20):
You know, I've been involved in literally thousands of neglect
and abuse cases as a forensic psychologist, and many times,
you know, when you see neglect like this, there may
be substance abuse, so there may be mental illness or
even a lack of knowledge to parent. But occasionally you
will run into these parents that are so self centered,
(09:42):
so caught up in their own lives that the children
are secondary to the point where the kids are harmed.
And you know, I wonder about this case is it's
a case of sort of narcissistic and self centered people.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Hold on, okay, you're giving I mean, la, what do
you mean the child is secondary? That could mean anything.
The children are starving. I don't know why you call
that secondary. That's certainly famistic. You're putting perfume on the pig.
The children were starving. The kommodes are overflowing with faces.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
You know what that is, right? Crap poop?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, and they're living there in the cold while mommy
and daddy are dining out at a restaurant. What a
secondary mean?
Speaker 11 (10:30):
That's not what I mean by secondary. They're so caught
up in their own life and what they want. The
kids are a second thought. They don't even want to
feed the kids. As long as they're fed, maybe like
maybe they'll leave some money for the kids, or maybe
they'll just forget about the kids because they're well fed
(10:51):
and happy and doing their own thing, and the kids.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Are marking on them right now. Kealshevski, Uh, you know
what I need? Any doctor Michelle Dupree is joining us.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
You know her well.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
She's shot to fame during the Alex Murdog double murder trial,
but in my world, the world of crime, she was
already famous. Forensic pathologists, medical examiner, and guess what, also
former detective author of Money, Mischief and Murder The Murdog Dynasty.
The rest of the story and more important for me
(11:26):
Field guide for Child abuse investigation, Child Abuse Investigation field
guide and homicide Investigation Field Guide.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Doctor Dupree, thank you for taking time to be with us.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
How long do you have to starve a child before
their ribs and their bones starts showing through their skin.
Speaker 12 (11:48):
Nancy, A child normally would starve to death in three
to four weeks, and so they're going to be exhibiting
signs of that. They're going to get very skinny, all
sorts of other symptoms and are going to be there. So,
you know, two to three weeks and that's it. You know, child,
A person cannot go very long without water three days
(12:08):
or so, but food maybe three or four weeks. This
is so egregious, and unfortunately, this is not that uncommon.
I have dealt with many child abuse neglect cases all
over the country, really, and we see this more often
than we want.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
You know, I'm catching on one thing, you know, doctor Deprie.
It's my job to martial evidence, to determine what I
can prove whether that evidence is admissible in front of
a jury, because if it's not, it means nothing to me.
But I just heard you say it could take two
to three weeks before a child's bones are actually sticking out. Okay,
Derek Smith, back to you. You're a veteran trial lawyer
(12:48):
right there. I would have a field day with these
parents because it's not an isolated incident where one night
they didn't get supper.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
They're not steaming broccoli, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And the steamer like you do for your children, this
took at least two to three weeks to methodically starve them.
Speaker 7 (13:08):
Well, you mentioned evidence, and this we need. You mentioned evidence.
This is how we try cases, is how we figure
out GUILDENNI since we use evidence, testimony, and right here,
the children are the ones telling the police they went
to bed hungary that night, because as the mother said
when they questioned her, they don't go to bed hungry
at night. They just didn't want raising canes or she
(13:29):
didn't want to feed a McDonald's and the children didn't
want to eat anything but that. So that's a different argument.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I'm starting to see your defense here. So you're saying
the children want to McDonald's, and her being such a
good mommy, she goes, oh, no fast food for you.
How about no food for you one night? Are refusing
McDonald's does not a starving child make And you better
know right now, my children have never gone to bed
(13:57):
without plenty of food a verb.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So you're saying that in this case.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Now, I get While you were talking about your son
wanting McDonald's as opposed to broccoli, you're saying that mommy
is such a good mommy, she wouldn't feed her children
fast food. You do know that's bs right in the
real world. Maybe in criminal defense world as great. I
wouldn't buy that if an angel flew down from heaven
(14:24):
and tried to sell.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It to me.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
You're saying they went to bed hungry because mommy didn't
want them to have McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Is that your defense right now?
Speaker 7 (14:32):
Hey, Nancy, i'd point of the evidence, and right now
the evidence we have is testimony from the child and
testimony from the parents, and furthermore of you if you
look into what they were talking about to the police.
They're in school. The school provides them with food, So
how do they get to this point? I mean what
they're right break.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Still is.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So what you're saying, mommy and daddy are not responsible
for breakfast and lunch because the children can get that
as school.
Speaker 7 (14:58):
I mean, if they're provided food from the school, how
are they getting to this point?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Let me just say, yes, this officer, Bess, I got
to give this to Derek Smith. He wins a lot
of cases, and now I see why he's got this
good guy. Look at me when I lie to you appearance,
and he makes it seem like, hey, she's just a
good mom.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
She didn't want them to have beast food.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Officer, Bess, you know, you might almost fall for it
unless you had been one of the cops answering that
call and you see the child, thin thin running in
the street and you go to the home. Tell me, Bess,
what was found in the home?
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Well, Daniel, what we were able to discover in the
home is there was no functioning stove, So even if
the parents felt as though they wanted to cook broccoli,
they didn't even have the audacity to fix the basic
necessities such as a stove in the home. Furthermore, there
was no food inside of the refrigerator. So these kids
(16:07):
not only have to fend for themselves, but the foods
and the meals that were provided in the schools were
the only source of nourishment they really had.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
You know, And a lot of schools, I don't know
if you know this, Chelsea Jones, but a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Of schools they don't let you come back for seconds.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
And then for some children if they do go back
for seconds, they get made fun of.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Did you know that? Yes?
Speaker 10 (16:34):
I mean that's I think another thing else.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Isn't it true that this was during a break the
children didn't have food at school?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I had nothing, correct.
Speaker 9 (16:45):
One of the children, the eldest child, also told police
that on occasion when mom and dad were out, they
would leave about twenty dollars for them to eat at
home and they would take the which is two bacon
cheeseburgers and three mcchickens, totaling around nineteen bucks to eat.
And that was not every day, that was on occasion,
(17:08):
your point, they were on a holiday break, which then
made meals even more sparse than normal.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Parents face charges after five children found living in squalid
conditions with no food.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Joining me an all star panel, and we've got a
veteran trial lawyer Derek Smith trying to make the best
argument he can for these two Chelsea Jones joining us
Evening anchor investigative reporter CBS needs Miami, Chelsea, any idea
where are the parents so go chow down for dinner.
Speaker 10 (17:39):
That isn't immediately available?
Speaker 9 (17:42):
And when I asked the mom, that wasn't something that
she indicated to me exactly where they were when this
all took place.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, he's joining me right now. In addition to our
All Star Panel. Paula Roady is joining US child abuse
welfare consultant, an expert former CPS Chop Protector Services in
Orange County. She's at Paula Roady Consulting. Paula, thank you
for being with us. I was just talking before you
(18:11):
joined us to doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner and pathologist,
and she says it would take two to three weeks
for a child to exhibit evidence, physical evidence that you
could just look at and see that the child is starving.
Two to three weeks. These are five children. Occasionally, occasionally
(18:37):
mommy and daddy would leave a twenty dollars bill, and
I guess the children are supposed to run out in
the traffic, five children and try to find something to eat.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I don't know if you heard what they could get.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It was like two cheeseburgers and some McNuggets and five
of them would have to split that. And that was
only on occasion, Paula, I mean, I'm hearing more and more.
I first really found out about food denial as a
former child abuse. In the past couple of years, I
(19:08):
saw plenty of child abuse, children beaten their bones broken, murdered,
burned with cigarettes. You know, of course sex abuse that
goes without saying raped. But I had not encountered or
was not trained enough to realize what I was seeing.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Denial of food as child abuse.
Speaker 13 (19:28):
Paula, Yes, it's actually would fall under severe neglect because
the health and safety the life of a child is
immediately in danger with that severe withholding of essential necessities
food among everything else. And I would say everything else,
(19:51):
I mean the conditions of the home, the children having
dirty and ill fitting clothes, no supervision, left alone. And
what I'm curious about is where were the protective adults
such as teachers. You have them a reference to a
(20:11):
school uniform, so they're not homeschooled, where children have less
access to protective adults.
Speaker 14 (20:18):
But you have teachers, you have relatives, you have the landlord,
if they were living in an apartment, you have neighbors.
Speaker 13 (20:26):
And I would not be surprised if there have been
reports made to child protective Services about the conditions and
concerns to these children.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Previously crime stories with Nancy Grace, just recently a high
profile case including starvation. I've not one, but all the
children came to the forefront of the knee in our country.
(21:01):
Now you look at these two parents, they haven't missed
a meal. But what about this woman watcher?
Speaker 15 (21:08):
It Scott a text message from Eve's teacher and she
said that Eve did not pack a lunch today and
can I bring a lunch over to the school. This
happens quite often when you're having raising children, because I
know that her teacher is uncomfortable with her being hungry
(21:31):
and not having a lunch, and it would ease her
discomfort if I came to the school with lunch. But
I responded and just said Eve is responsible for making
her lunches in the morning, and she actually told me
she did pack a lunch. So the natural outcome is
she's just going to need to be hungry and hopefully,
(21:54):
hopefully nobody gives her food, and nobody steps in and
gives her a lunch.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
The teacher uncomfortable, uncomfortable just looking at her.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
That's Ruby Frankie, who shot to stardom with a mommy
blog and then her own show that was from the
official eight Passengers on YouTube. It went from her fame
and glory giving parental advice to millions of followers to.
Speaker 16 (22:24):
This right, I'm on the address of your emergency. Okay,
and that's pun number you're calling from. I me exactly
what's happened.
Speaker 8 (22:34):
I just had a twelve year old boy show up
here at my front door asking for help. And he's
said he had just came from a neighbor's house, and
we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated,
he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty.
Speaker 16 (22:53):
Okay, he is your door locked?
Speaker 8 (22:56):
No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front page.
And he asked us to call the police. So he's
very afraid and he's twelve years old.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
You can hear the neighbor break down, crying as he
sees the starving boy of Ruby Frankie. And in the
photos we're showing you, we're not we're not even showing
you the worst because these children were bound and tied up.
(23:31):
Take a listen to more of that nine one one call.
Speaker 8 (23:33):
She's a she's a bad lady. We didn't realize how bad.
Speaker 16 (23:38):
I'm just asking where he is. Well, sounds like he's
making a phone call real quick to a sergeant. He
is going to head up.
Speaker 8 (23:46):
Okay, all right, Well, if we have to take it
inside the house. We will just we're just sitting outside
right now because we have chairs out here, and its convenient.
Speaker 16 (23:55):
That the thing, if anything, he's sitting out down your
driveway and keeping an eye on the house. That's where
you feel safe, That's where the child feel safe. So
let's just stay where you're at. Does he have anything
with him?
Speaker 8 (24:05):
No, he's run a long sleeve shirt and shorts and
it's a way too big for him.
Speaker 16 (24:11):
Can you tell me what color the short surt?
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Okay, the ambulance is here.
Speaker 16 (24:15):
Are they with you?
Speaker 8 (24:17):
No, they're just not getting out of the truck.
Speaker 16 (24:19):
Okay, I'll go ahead and I'll let you go. Then
you did a great job, Dodger.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Michelle Dupree. I don't know if you could see the
images that we are showing our viewers right now. But
who could see these children and not know something was
horribly wrong? Teachers, administrators, neighbors, tenants. Nobody said a thing,
(24:43):
Doctor Dupree, How long would a child starve to get
to the point of Ruby Frankie's children. You saw the
bones protruding, almost about to break through the skin.
Speaker 12 (24:56):
Well, Nancy, it would be about the same thing and
of course, everything is dependent upon the child individually, but again,
three to four weeks something like that, and this is
a chronic thing obviously in these children. This is not
an overnight thing or a one time event. This is
something that's been going on for a long time, and
it's disgusting.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
A child leads officers to siblings with no food, no electricity,
and dirty clothes while the parents are actually dining out,
leaving their children to starve.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Come o running over with feces, no clean clothes, the
place is cold. We find out that the parents have jobs,
they have money, they have food.
Speaker 17 (25:40):
Listen looking around the apartment, officers discover the toilet contains
stagnant water and feces, and there is no toilet paper.
The children tell police they have been without electricity for
around two months. Trying to locate their parents, the children
tell police they have no way of contacting their mother,
but they know she works at a hotel in Miami.
They don't know where their father works.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
And then police find out more.
Speaker 18 (26:01):
As officers talk to the children and look at the apartment,
it is apparent things are even worse than it seems.
All five children share a single full sized bed and
lack clean clothing. Officers also note a strong order of soiling,
and the twelve year old girl tells them her parents
haven't washed clothes for a couple of weeks, so they
just wear what they have.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
So let me understand this, officer Christopher Best joining us
from Miami Beach PD.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So, not only do they not give the.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Children food, the children are starving while they're down the
street at Golden Corral, but they don't wash the clothes either.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
The parents go to work every day, their clothes are clean.
I mean they've gotten to know this is wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
It's not like they don't understand what they're doing wrong
because their clothes are clean.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
They have food.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Absolutely, So ourmscation revealed that not only do the parents
have jobs, but the mother makes about fourteen hundred dollars
a week. When the kid express concerns over having food
and clothing, the children to our investigators that it depended
on the mood. The twelve year old and all instered
(27:10):
purposes were like the guardian of her other siblings. She
would advocate for them. She would ask her mother and
or father for additional money, and she told our detectives
it all depended on their mood, whether they wanted to
feed us or not, when they would go out to
Lincoln Road or Ocean Drive to dine out and have
dinner or have takeout, whenever they would ask for more
(27:33):
if it was all depending on how the parents felt
in that moment.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Isn't it true that she said she was too focused
on her job to feed her children.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Absolutely, that's also what detectives uncovered. And I want to
make it very clear these parents do exactly what they
were doing. This was very intentional based on the physical
evidence and also the testimony of both parents and children.
This was a chronic issue that stemmed from New York.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So they had been flagged in New York. What exactly
happened when they were in New York.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
So there was an open case of child neglect in
New York. CPS took away the kids while they were there.
Once they went through the process of regaining custody of
their children, they relocated down here in Miami Beach, and
apparently the same vicious cycle continued. One of the victims
(28:29):
in this case, I could sell their cell phone for
twenty dollars because that's what they're accustomed to, just to
provide food for their kids during a break when their
parents refused to provide them with the twenty dollars outside
of the mills that they were seeing in school.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
So very disturbing case lay stars. So one of them
had a cell phone and had to sell it for food.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Absolutely, guys, listen to this.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
At the police station, the children are being fed twell
of your old girl explains. Occasionally they get deep food
their parents bring home. The girl explains to police that
her mother would occasionally leave them a twenty dollars bill
to buy food, and she would buy two bacon cheeseburgers
and three mad chicken sandwiches for McDonald's to feed all
five of the children. The parents frequently leave the children
at home without food while they go out to eat
(29:17):
dinner on an emergency.
Speaker 16 (29:19):
What are you reporting? So this is no one one
day of an emergency.
Speaker 19 (29:27):
I just got to leave them home because I love
when the family of sixteen okay, can you hear me?
And we have a busing Paris?
Speaker 13 (29:40):
Did you hear that?
Speaker 19 (29:41):
Okay?
Speaker 16 (29:41):
How did they abuse you?
Speaker 19 (29:43):
Okay? They hate us betas crooks. They like throats, cross roots,
They pull our hair, they beginker our hair. I have
two my two little sisters right now are chained up.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
One Terpin child manages to escape through a window after
years of abuse and get to make a nine to
one call. You saw that photo of all the children
in matching outfits. The Turpin parents would do this. They
would stage photos and force the children to behave in
(30:20):
a certain way in front of the camera, dressing them
all alike in a choreographed photo to send out.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
But at home, as is now.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Dubbed the House of Horrors, listen, David and Louise Terpin
live in Paris, California, with their thirteen children, raging in
age from two to twenty nine. The Turbans in prison
and beat their children, only allowing them to eat once
a day and bathe once a year. The parents would
buy food for themselves, but their kids weren't allowed to
eat it. When seventeen year old Jordan escapes out a window,
(30:50):
she calls nine one one and tells the dispatcher she
and her siblings are being abused by their parents and
that the smell in the house is so bad sometimes
she can barely breathe. She also says two of her
sisters and one of her brothers are currently changed to
their beds. David and Louise Turban plead guilty and her
sentence to life in prison.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Rot in hell.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Turpin parents, they're behind bars where they belong. But guess
what they're getting Three hots and a cock, something they
deprived their children of for years until again their bones
were literally literally sticking out, almost about to puncture the skin.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Another issue there with the Turpins. Listen to this, what
about this, doctor Jeff Kalashevski.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
They would buy pies at the deli, in the grocery store,
apple pies, pumpkin pies and.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
More and leave them out.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Then they would unchain the children and let them out
of closets, and they would let them.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Come down and see the food, but not let them
eat it.
Speaker 11 (31:50):
Right, that's beyond the gluck. That's sadistic psychological abuse, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
You know. I'm just wondering what part of hell is
for people like this. Crime stories with Nancy Grace Derek Smith.
Please don't think I'm picking on you just because you
(32:17):
represent people like this that starve their children.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
What do you do in a case like this?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
And look, I'm giving you a hard time, but you're
very successful. You know the Constitution like the back of
your hands. You know the rules of evidence, backwards and forwards,
like there your alphabet. But how can you get parents
off in a case like the one we're looking at
right now.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Forget about the turpins. They've already played guilty. They got
a one way ticket to hell.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
But how would you argue the current case, the case
in chief we're discussing.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
I think that the biggest issue here would be intent.
I mean, what was the parent's intent here? I know
the detective mentioned that, you know, some past issues in
New York could point to a pattern of behavior with them.
But I mean, there's no evidence of physical abuse, which
is good. I understand that we have some evidence that
the mother is employed and what money she's making. However,
what are their expenses?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
There's no well that the parents not paying the electric
bill and the grocery bill is next to nothing.
Speaker 7 (33:21):
Well, I mean grocery sts you know, are expensive nowadays,
and you got five kids to feed here in this case.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Okay, you need to stop right there. You need to stop. Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I was supporting you and your representation because it's allowed
under the constitution appearance that starve their children. But to
say with a straight face, Grocery bills are expensive. They're
eating out, man, they're paying for a restaurant food.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You know what I grew up. We never got to
go to a restaurant.
Speaker 19 (33:46):
Eh.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
We ate home every night because we couldn't afford to
go to a restaurant.
Speaker 7 (33:51):
Well, obviously they can't cook at home if they don't
have that working stuff stole. But they may have an
air fryer, they may have a microwave, other ways that
they can prepare the food for the children. But they
don't go to school.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
They can list on you.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Okay, so you're saying grocery bills, I got to write
this down. Grocery bills cost a lot. That's gonna work
with a jury, Good.
Speaker 7 (34:11):
Luck with that.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
And the stove's not working. Why is it the stove working?
Stove's not working, Derek, because mommy and daddy are spending
the money on themselves. You saw them. They ain't missed
a meal, man, They can get back and forth to work.
The mom's making seventy two grand a year for Pete's sake.
The reason they can't cook is because they aren't paying
(34:35):
for heat and air conditioned, much less.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
A stove in the home.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But I can see where you're going, and you know
I asked for that, you gave it to me. That's
what your defense would be. Although I think the mom
not wanting them to eat snack food or fast food.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That might work a little bit better. But I want
you to hear this. Derek Smith.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
Police asked the children if they were hungry and fed them.
As police interview the twelve year old, she utters some
very telling information. The parents would frequently share an evening
meal without providing food for the children, and they would
often leave the children at home while they went out
to dinner. The girl says the siblings often went to
bed hungary.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You know, Chelsea Jones joining us evening anchor investigative reporter
CBS needs Miami.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
She won an Emmy. That ain't easy, Chelsea. I mean,
what can you tell me about these two parents. The
dad had a job. I just don't know what his
job is yet.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
The mom had a really good job at a hotel
in Miami, So that tells me she had to go
back and forth. She probably had a car so she
could afford transportation, eating out, clothes to wear to work,
the whole shebang, but not food for her children and
the apartment was like a hellhole.
Speaker 9 (35:55):
Yeah, it's unclear based on what police had told us
at this point and revealed how she got to work,
but they report that she worked at Moxie Hotel, which
is also one to beat, so she could be getting
there by foot. However, when I talked to her, she
was really emphasizing the fact that she made a mistake.
She did confirm that she was from New York and
(36:17):
that her children never went to bed hungry and that
at the end of the day they just weren't hungry,
despite what has been revealed by.
Speaker 10 (36:27):
Police that these children were not eating and were being neglected.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Chelsea, did you say the mom said her children never
went to bed hungry?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Correct? Oh, I can't wait to have the jury to
hear that.
Speaker 9 (36:38):
What I asked her specifically about the twenty dollars that
she would sometimes supply in the food that they were
able to get with only twenty dollars for the five kids,
and she said that wasn't true and that they often
just didn't want what she would allow.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Take care of your.
Speaker 6 (36:55):
Kids, I let the job. I was focusing more on
the job than the kids, and it got some of
like the career and stuff, but just take care of
your kids and you know, love them as.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Much as you can.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
What you were hearing mommy Azra Nikosovic speaking to our
Chelsea Jones, investigative reporter anchor CBS Miami. Did I just
hear her correctly? Chelsea?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Did she actually tell you I was focusing more on
the job and the career.
Speaker 20 (37:29):
What that was?
Speaker 10 (37:29):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yes? And that's not all she said.
Speaker 10 (37:32):
Listen, Please say they found you know the plumbing wasn't on.
The electricity you hadn't been on for two months.
Speaker 6 (37:36):
The kids say, correct, the electricity was all for like
a month and a half and the toilet was clogged.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
But I'll fix everything. Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
If she ever does fix it, it's because the court
will make her fix it. But here is mommy along
with Daddy in court.
Speaker 21 (37:52):
I'm going to say, I'll find Noble Claus. I do
find it for all five counts.
Speaker 20 (37:58):
If you'd be so implied for pre trial service for
all five counts, considering mission that COVID the Koachovik's lack.
Speaker 21 (38:05):
Of criminal history, what's your position?
Speaker 8 (38:10):
See?
Speaker 20 (38:12):
Given though this, the state doesn't feel like this should
be a good bit on the infarmers. The the listed
address where the living has no electricity, no standing. Third
precaution asines on.
Speaker 21 (38:31):
Bust one bond of twenty five hundred dollars. That's the
standard bond. I'll set that for count one or more
on the other counts. It's all for the same same
Act two accounts two, three, four and five or or
or count one twenty.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
He's playing what you're hearing right now. The defense attorney,
he's pulling a Derek Smith right there.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Ask for a PTS.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know what that is.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
We just got PTI preached.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
That's where there's no criminal case, and the defendants go
to some classes like parenting classes, and then everything's dropped
and the prosecutor, thank goodness, said no, and they have
walked out on twenty five hundred dollars bond.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Translation, that's two hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
They have to put up and are released on your
own recognissance.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
In other words, you don't have to pay anything.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Just go back out there, okay to Paula ROADI joining
me former Child Protective Services, now Paula Roady consulting.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
And it just keeps on and on and on. Second verse,
same as the first.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
These two are out r R probably at Chipotle right now,
probably having a mistake somewhere. Maybe they're out back, I
don't know, after starving their children.
Speaker 14 (39:54):
Yes, it's it's criminal and they were arrested. So and
I think that next step with regards to the Child
Protective Services is to request of the juvenile court that
the parents undergo a In California, it's called a evidentiary
(40:17):
psychological evaluation.
Speaker 10 (40:19):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was with you until you said that the parents
get to have a shrink paid by me, the taxpayer.
You know what, I don't need a shrink to know
that they are self centered and they are sadistic, watching
their children day by day starve. Chelsea Jones joining me
(40:44):
CBS Need's Miami. What's next for mommy and daddy.
Speaker 9 (40:48):
What Mom told me when I spoke to her was
that she was going to fight to get custody of
her five kids back.
Speaker 10 (40:54):
And we have yet to hear from the father.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
At this point, we wait as justice and folds. Nancy
Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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