July 12, 2025 • 43 mins
In 1960, Lady Bird Lake was built by the city of Austin. The river-like reservoir was created as a cooling pond for Austin's then-new city power plant.
The 416-acre lake is now primarily used for recreation, but many in the area are now concerned is it the hunting ground for a killer. There have been multiple deaths reported since 2022. The total now up to 38 deaths.
Even though police have given no indication there are signs of foul play, social media has lit up with speculation. According to the San Antonio Current, rumors of a serial killer hunting young men and dumping their bodies in Lady Bird Lake ran rampant. That's when Police recovered the bodies of Jason John, Clifton Axtell, Jonathon Honey, and Christopher Hays-Clark — all between the ages of 20 and 40 and all recovered from Lady Bird Lake.
Reegan Aparicio says she has no doubts that her longtime boyfriend Chris Hays-Clark was placed in Lady Bird Lake. The dental nurse says despite police assurances that there was no foul play in Hays-Clark's death, she believes he was already dead when he went into the water.
Many citizens are worried.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Reegan Aparicio - Mother to Christopher Clark's (son) Friend, GoFundMe:
- Alan Bennett – Former Assistant District Attorney; Partner at Gunter, Bennett, and Anthes
- Dr. Dana Anderson – Forensic Psychologist, Forensic Expert; Twitter: @psychologydrcom, TikTok: @psychologydr
- Dennis Franks - Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent, President of Investigative & Security Global Solutions
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School
- Brianna Hollis - Crime Reporter, KXAN News; IG: @brihollis_, X: @brihollisNEWS, FB: Brianna Hollis News
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
The city of Austin gripped by fears of a serial
killer as law enforcement reveals thirty eight bodies thirty eight
three eight have been found in and around one lake
in the last days. Another victim, I'm Nancy Grace. This
(00:30):
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
That's right. In the last days, a grim.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Discovery made, a spokesperson for Austin PD says, a teen
boy goes missing Sunday as he was strolling along and
planning to kayak Lady Bird Lake. Authorities immediately launch a
search and rescue effort to no avail. Days later, a
(01:01):
paddle border makes a grim discovery, spotting the teen's body
floating in the water near a busy intersection at West
Riverside Drive at South Lamar Boulevard.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
What happened to the teen boy?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
The artificial lake, Ladybird Lake stretches over five miles.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Was this death an accident?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
We may never know, but the backdrop is thirty eight
bodies found in and around Ladybird Lake.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
For instance, there's Jeff Jones.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
He flies into Austin last year for what he thought
would be a bachelor party. He went to dinner with
his friends and started and headed out to move on
to bars along West sixth Street. Around one am, he
got separated from his friend ends Two weeks later, he
wakes up in the hospital with metal rods supporting his back.
(02:06):
He doesn't remember a thing. Doctors find the date rape
drug or hypnol in his system and told him he
had been found in the water near a twenty five
foot high drop from a bridge. Terrified, Jones thinks he
was drugged and pushed by a potential serial killer that
(02:29):
many believe is roaming the streets of Austin. Listen to
Austin police officers speaking out.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Our initial information doesn't show anything suspicious, but we don't
make that final determination until the medical examiner has been
able to conduct their review.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
As well.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
A lot of bodies been pulled out of the water
off sir, Can you understand the public's concern, worries and
the heighten of alert.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Sure? Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
You know, one thing to keep in mind is that
Austin has thousands of acres of green space and water.
You know, it's a very nature focused large metropolitan area.
So you know, we would just encourage people to always
be aware of your surroundings, you know, and if you
can go with friends, keep yourself safe, right so that
way we don't have unfortunate incidents that that can occur.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
What unfortunate incidents many people call it murder.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Now, I've been researching.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
This and there are many bodies that have just been
recently pulled out of Lady Bird Lake, But all the
way back to two thousand and eight, there have been
suspicious deaths, bodies floating up in Ladybird Lake that have
been deemed accident or suicide. Specifically in two thousand and eight,
(03:44):
read hamad read a mod a dad, a husband, great job,
second job.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
He's found dead in Ladybird Lake.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
His hands and feet are bound and he has tape
over his mouth and nose. Witnesses saw it when he
was pulled out of the water. Multiple witnesses saw that
he was bound and duct taped. But it was ruled
a suicide. How did he bind his feet and hands,
(04:23):
get duct tape on his mouth and nose, and what
hobble into the water and flee himself in That's statistically impossible.
If you look at method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
that assessment is very wrong. But let's fast forward to
(04:44):
now cops and Austin still insisting it's all just a coincidence.
Agree or disagree. Another body just found. Take a listen
to Rachel Benia crime online.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
Another body has been found in Eady Bird Lake in Austin.
At one thirty one pm, Austin Police respond to a
chech welfare urgent call after a nine to one to
one caller reports seeing a body about twenty feet off shore.
Police arrive at one thirty three pm, minutes after the
call is made and find a body of an unknown
person who's pronounced dead. So the body is found in
(05:19):
the same site where other deceased individuals have been recovered
in recent months.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Okay, let me understand what's happening. First of all, let's
go out to a special guest joining us, a Brianna
Hollis crime reporter k XA and News.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Brianna, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
First of all, tell me about Lady bird Like. I
understand it's a man made.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Like to what hold water for a reservoir?
Speaker 7 (05:43):
What is it correct for? You know, the average person
who hasn't been to Austin. It's referred to as the river.
It's I believe about four hundred and seventy acres of
service surface area, and it flows under the two major
highways in town, goes all through downtown, is lined by
(06:05):
a lot of green space, is close to bars, right
by a popular walking and hiking trail.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So let me understand Lady Bird Lake actually has a
ban on swimming in it, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
For most parts of it?
Speaker 8 (06:22):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Because so many dead bodies have been fished out.
Speaker 7 (06:26):
There's other reasons for that as well, just kind of
I believe general safety and bacteria in the water kind
of issues as well.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Okay, I understood that swimming was banned a few years
after Riat Hamad was found floating with his hands and
feet bound and duck tape. After a few more bodies
floated up and officers continued fishing them out, swimming was
in fact banned at Lady Bird Lake.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
But let's move forward to what we know now.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Also near Ladybird Lake is a popular area that includes
food trucks, food trucks, and it's a long rainy street.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (07:19):
Rainy Street in downtown Austin is one point eight miles
from Ladybird Lake. It's a raucous bar and food truck area,
where many of the victims were seen before their deaths.
It's also an area with a long standing reputation for crime.
One theory is that people are in danger of having
their drink spiked so they can be robbed or worse.
Over the last two years, the Austin Police Department has
(07:41):
been investigating crimes where men are being potentially drugged while
out for the evening. KXAN reports in each case, a
man meets a woman at one of the downtown establishments,
and during the course of the evening, the victim is
drugged and the suspect takes off with their credit cards
and cell phone. Investigators say the cell phones and credit
cards been used to commit more than seventy five thousand
(08:02):
dollars in fraudulent purchases and transactions. The suspect uses the
credit cards for physical purchases at various businesses and the
cell phone for banking apps for fraudulent purchases and other transactions.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
This would not be the first time that late night
food trucks have been linked to homicide. Brian Coburger specifically
as to whom I am referring listen.
Speaker 9 (08:28):
To a four murdered University of Idaho students caught on
video less than two hours before they were stabbed to death.
Madison Mogan and ki Leakansolves ordered a ten dollars portion
of carbonara from the Grub Truckers, a food truck at
one for three am. During their ten minute wait, they
took photos of each other and chatted with other customers.
They arrived at the truck with an unidentified young man,
(08:49):
but didn't leave with him. The video was filmed by
the food truck operators as part of a livestream.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Joining me an.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
All star panel to makes sense of what we know
right now. But I want to go to Frank's former
FBI Supervisory Special Agent, President of Investigative and Security Global Solutions, Dennis, thank.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
You for being with us, Good morning.
Speaker 10 (09:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
The food truck and bar and restaurant area along Rainy
Street not far from Ladybird Lake, and I believe in
criminal law there is no coincidence. And I base that
on not only ten years of prosecuting nothing but felonies,
(09:32):
of course, including homicide, serial murders, spree murders, but in
all the cases that I've covered, when you keep having
dead bodies float up in the same lake, you have
to at least consider a serial killer.
Speaker 10 (09:49):
I would agree you count the number of bodies that
have been found in this area over the last several years.
And this is an area where, well don't their motorized
boats are not allowed. You know, there are a few
drownings every year on Lake Austin and Lake Travis, but
these are usually from boating situations and swimming situations. So
(10:12):
this number of bodies in one location, to me, is
not a coincidence either. In there probably I think I've
counted maybe their fifteen bars on Rainey Street and they're
all within distance walking distance of the lake joining me.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
In addition to Brianna Hollis from k x a N
and Dennis Frank's former FBI, another special guest is Reagan Apodicio,
mother to one of the Ladybird Lake victim's son. I
am referring to John Christopher Hayes Clark. He was found
(10:52):
dead April fifteen, twenty three. His CEO d cause of
death even now is un determined.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Reagan, thank you for being with us, Thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Freagan, what do you make a police insisting that all
of these deaths are either accident or suicide?
Speaker 5 (11:12):
I don't believe anything the Austin Police Department says. I
haven't since I've known, since I first got the call
about Chris. It's been crazy dealing with them, and I
haven't had too much clarification on anything of his death.
(11:34):
So that makes me not believe them.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
When you say it's been crazy dealing with them, what
do you mean by that.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Little to no contact with them? I have to keep
basically begging to talk to the detective at the time
when all this happened, I literally only talked to him
two times, met him one time, and the one time
I met him is when they were about to close
the case.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Is the case actually closed? Yes? And what was their
decision as to cause of death?
Speaker 5 (12:03):
They deemed it as undetermined and they closed the case
because they said they had no information on Chris.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Over three dozen bodies have been found in or around
Lady Bird Lake in just three years, nineteen pulled from
the water, the rest discovered on land, police shutting down
suggestions that there is a serial killer name the Rainy
(12:42):
Street Ripper, while half a dozen causes of death remain unknown.
So how can they say that if they don't even
know the cood causes of death on at least six
of the victims. What do we know about the so
called Rainy Street ripper? And why is law enforcement insisting
(13:07):
there's not a serial killer when we don't even have
all the CODs. Reagan Apodiicio, mother to one of the
Ladybird late victim's young son, and he wants to know
what happened to dad? And can I tell you? As
each year passes is going to nag him and haunt
(13:27):
him the rest of his life if we don't get answers,
now is the time to get those answers, really get
hold on just one moment. Also joining us is renowned
medical examiner chief Medical Examiner in Texas of Terrance County.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
That's Fort Worth Lecturer.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
University of Texas, Austin and at TCU, Texas Christian University
Medical School, doctor Kendall Crown's Dodtor Crowns, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Being with us. To me, when a case is.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Labeled undetermined CEOD cause of death and the family has
no answers, that's not a case that I would consider
to be closed.
Speaker 11 (14:09):
Yeah, you're correct on that, Nancy. Any case that's left
undetermined means that the medical examiner wasn't able to figure
out an exact cause of death, and so because of that,
they've left it undetermined in case any investigative information comes
up on a later date, or anything else may come
arise that may change the outcome. So when you get
(14:32):
an undetermined, especially in a case found in a lake
like that, it means that they didn't find anything specific,
because drowning finding themselves are non specific, and so they
didn't find anything that they felt was valid enough to
cause it to give a good valid cause death.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, they're saying that about so many of the cases.
Doctor Kendall Crowns, I want to circle back to you
on obtaining cause of death when a body has been
in the water submerged for a period of time. But
I want to go back to Reagan Apadicio, mother to
victim Christopher Clark's son, question to you regarding the death
(15:09):
of Chris Clark. You guys were together for over ten years.
I understand you last saw him on Easter Sunday, It's correct,
and when he walked out after visiting with you and
your son, you had no idea you would never see
him again.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
When did you learn that Christopher had been killed.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
I learned Sunday after they let his mother know what.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Were you told?
Speaker 5 (15:38):
His best friend called me and he was very distraught
and let me know that they had found.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Chris in the lake.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
And I didn't believe it, and I went to his
mom's house and she told me that the police had
came and let them know that they had identified him
in the lake and that, you know, he was deceased,
and I kind of lost it from there.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Do you know, Reagan, whether he had drugs or alcohol
in his body?
Speaker 7 (16:08):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I do know, Diddy, Yes, you know. That leads me back.
Brianna joining me, Brianna.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Hollis k x A N to.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
The scheme that apparently some women have drugging and robbing
male victims and then they are found in and around
Ladybird Lake. Are you familiar with that scheme? That investigation
by Austin p DA.
Speaker 7 (16:36):
In my experience, when it has come to cases similar
to what you have brought up in the past two
years that I personally have looked into, they have either
been not reported to police or have been unsubstantiated, or
the police department has suspended the cases on the bonus
of the complaint end.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Okay, I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you
saying that you know of other cases where it's alleged
victims were drugged and then robbed but they were never prosecuted.
Whether it's because it couldn't be substantiated or the victim
didn't want to testify, is that what you're saying I'm saying.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
Or because the alleged victims didn't report it to police
at all and it was just social media.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Chatter or okay, people reaching out my question? Do you
know of cases, whether they've been prosecuted or not, where
victims claimed they were drugged and robbed in the area? Yeah, okay,
let me go to doctor Kendall Crown's again, chief medical
(17:44):
examiner there in Fort Worth. Doctor Crowns, I find this
baffling and confusing that so many bodies have been pulled
out of Ladybird Lake, but police are continuing to say
it's all just coincidence. Could you explain to me whether
in life of psychology reports that it could be determined
(18:08):
if these victims had been drugged anyway.
Speaker 11 (18:10):
So the toxicology of reports will tell you what drugs
are in the system, and there are certain drugs that
are used to try and.
Speaker 12 (18:19):
Coerce or to.
Speaker 11 (18:20):
Drug an individual like ro Himbi and I think is
one of the daybreak drugs. But if you're seeing other
types of drugs, it may or may not have been
used coercely. So it's difficult to say this on toxicology.
The problem is, as you pointed out, you have many
bodies coming from the same area in a short period
of time, so you have to kind of wonder if
(18:43):
they're clustering like that, what's going on and what's causing it.
It's more than just as simple, oh, they all happen
to go to the same area and die. I do
feel that that's something the Medical Examiner's office in Travis
and the police in Austin should be really looking at.
Speaker 10 (18:59):
Why are all.
Speaker 11 (18:59):
These same people ending up and dead in the same area.
There's got to be a connection.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I'm sorry, can I say something sure, Chapin.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
There's a lot of talk that all of these bodies
have been found near Rainy Street, and that isn't true.
There have only been I'm looking at our map right now,
there have only been two found near Rainy Street, where
the victim was reported last seen on Rainy Street since
twenty twenty two. The rest of it in all different
parts of Ladybird Lake, which again, if you're looking at
it on a map, that looks more like a river.
(19:27):
So I think it's really important to note that all
of these bodies aren't showing up near Rainey Street.
Speaker 11 (19:33):
That's good to know, yeah, but that's not Laborg Lake
have a current associated with it, so those bodies can
be being dropped at the centralized location and then washing
down the rivers, so they don't look at there.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
That has been found upstream from Rainey Street.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Upstream Ot is that Dodger Kendall crown speaking. Yes, sorry, okay,
doctor Kendall Crowns, you took the words straight out of
my mouth. Because the current leading into and out of
and in Ladybird Lake is considerable and your analysis is correct.
Speaker 11 (20:09):
Well, that's actually one of the reasons why they don't
want people swimming in Ladybird Lake is because the current
is very dangerous and people that aren't very good at
swimming get caught in that.
Speaker 12 (20:19):
Current and drown.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Is a serial killer stalking the Austin area, particularly a
popular nightlife area called Rainy Street not far from downtown.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Austin.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It was the death of Clifton Axtell, forty six. He
was found March twenty twenty three. The cause of death
COEOD ruled undetermined. Other bodies, according to police, are not
being investigated as homicides. So I'm supposed to believe that
these guys, all male, were just drunk and fell in
(20:56):
the water. Police say multiple victims were basically drunk or
high and fell into the water and just died. That
includes Ricky Parks, his body was found July twenty twenty two.
He drowned, Christopher Gutaris, Kyle Thornton, Christopher Hayes Clark. They
were also deemed not suspicious. Two of the victims, Jason
(21:22):
John and Jonathan Honey, were deemed to a drowned accidentally.
Both men last seen on Rainy Street. One man, Hussu Moreno,
shot while driving his vehicle, plunging into the reservoir. You
think that's a heart attack too. Local bartenders state they
(21:43):
have a hard time excepting there is not something much
more sinister going on. I mean, what's the likelihood that
all that we know of, I've got drunk end quote,
fell in the water. Let him go to Alan Bennett,
former felony prosecutor now partner at Gunter Bennett and anthus
at gbafirm dot com. Alan, I mean, you're a former
(22:08):
felony prosecutor like myself. If you're prosecuting this case or
investigating it, do you really care if the victim is
pushed into the water or dumped upstream in the lake
or downstream?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Do you care?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
It's a series of young men of men dead in
and around Lady Bird Lake. So I appreciate the distinction,
and it sounds like a wonderful distinction a veteran defense
attorney might make at trial. But I have handled serial
(22:45):
murder cases. I have argued them to the Georgia Supreme Court.
What are the first ones?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
You'll like?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
This for its analogy to the current case, Alan Bennett,
was a string of young blackmales were killed in Atlanta,
Everyone within a certain age range, everyone African American, everyone
killed with I believe it was a thirty six caliber
in the head in the middle of a sex act,
(23:14):
or so police thought.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But yet no one would say serial killer.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Well, it was a serial killer who would lure these.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Young guys out of a bar, go out to have
sex and kill them? Why? I don't know. Did he
hate himself, did he hate them? I don't know, and
I don't care why.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
But he was a serial killer ever the longest time,
nobody would say serial killer, and.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
But when you have this many bodies, whether they're upstreet,
in the lake or downstream, they all have to be
examined very closely.
Speaker 12 (23:53):
Allan yes, ma'am, I would agree. I think o psychology
reports need to be done on all of those folks.
I can't speak to this investigation directly in I can't
speak for APD, but having worked with APD the last
thirty seven years now, both as a prosecutor, infens learning.
One thing I see across the board, and I'm sure
(24:14):
you've seen us as well, answer across the board. In
law enforcement, any detective, investigator, a forensic analyst, officer, everyone
across the board. Good detective work dictates that you work
the facts, not the theory, and I've heard that countless times.
I suspect APD may take the position that this isn't
(24:34):
necessarily a coincidence. There is a common thread to all these.
We have a bunch of young people in a very
very well working entertainment district, here in Austin a bunch
of bunch of alcohol. They're very close to a very
dangerous body of water with a strong current. They would
say that it's Oncidentally, there are a number in such
a short period of time. And I'll be the first
(24:56):
to admit the number of bodies found in such a
short period of time the old adage where there is smoke,
there is fire. That's a lot a lot of smoke.
But I think former speciality of friends will hopefully agree
with me. You have to work the facts and not
the theory. The facts and the clues will help you
develop the theory. The theory doesn't help you develop facts,
(25:17):
and it may very well be as Miss Hollismans the
long ago APD, they close cases, but they will also
administratively close the case, which basically means we're just not
doing anything right now. We don't have any lease to follow,
we don't have any anywhere this is taking us.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
They're not going to go more.
Speaker 12 (25:34):
If additional evidence comes up, as doctor Brown to mention, absolutely,
they'll reopen that case if they can find that common thread,
and it may as well be the currently APD is
not finding the common thread that our intuition tells us
must be there, should be there, and it must be
something more than simply young folks bunch of alcohol close to.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
A bottley of water.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Now, I know why you want so many cases minute.
I agree with everything that you just said. But for
Austin Police to just come out and announce there isn't
a serial killer at this juncture, I think is highly,
highly premature and a risk to the public because we
really don't know. And you're right, you've got to follow
the facts before you develop a theory. Another thing you
(26:20):
said that I think should be very comforting to Miss
Reagan Apodicio, the mother to victim Christopher Clark's twelve year
old son, is that the cases are not closed in
the TV sense, in the street and vernacular sense of
the word. They are closed, as in, we've got a
dead end, we're not giving up. Well, you don't have
(26:42):
anywhere to go right now. And I got to tell
you something, Reagan. When I became a felony prosecutor, I
inherited a courtroom, a very very busy felony courtroom in
inter city Atlanta, and I inherited about one hundred and
fifty pending cases. While getting about one hundred new cases
(27:02):
every week or so. So the case isn't gone, it's
not done. It's closed for now until new evidence emerges.
And that's why we are talking about this case today.
I want to go to doctor Dana Anderson, forensics psychologist,
host of Killer Psychologist podcast, and you can find doctor
(27:25):
Dana at Killer Psychologist. Doctor Dana, thank you for being
with us. Why do you believe police don't want to
even entertain discussion of a serial killer in Austin.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Well, one reason is you don't want to brighten the public.
You want to create that sense of safety. And maybe
they do have more information and they don't want the
public to know about it. They don't want to create
that panic and fear. Although too late, that's actually already happening.
If you scour the internet, and even this morning, I
(28:00):
went online and looked at the bars on Rainy Street,
the Sidebar, and there's hundreds of reviews saying don't go
out to these places, you're going to get drugged. And
there's lots of information on the internet about these individuals
that have gone missing, and a lot of speculation and theories.
(28:23):
So there is panic and people want answers and it
is concerning to hear that cases are being closed to
prematurely agree.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Agree and again based on what Alan Bennett was just explaining,
the cases may not be closed in the layperson understanding,
they're closed, as in, we don't have any updates right now,
we're waiting for more evidence to be uncovered.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It would not be the first.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Time, by any stretch that a serial killer stopped an area,
while police steadfastly deny any such apparition as a serial killer.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Take a listen to our cut sixteen A.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
This is Dave Mack from Crime Online discussing a recent
spate of murders. For the longest time, police refused to
acknowledge a serial killer.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Alert to the area.
Speaker 8 (29:17):
Listen with Eric Opania's description of the man, the make
and model of the truck. Authorities were able to identify
Border Patrol Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As
authorities mobilized to look for One David Ortiz, they couldn't
find him. After Painia's escape from Martes, officers only knew
of victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they
were chasing after him, they heard about a third body
(29:39):
that had been found, later identified as thirty five year
old Gizelda Alisa Hernetez kno. Believing Ortiz will return to
the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities
head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That's right, a Border Patrol agent was in fact a
serial killer, and if police had acknowledged that these women
were dropping like fly at the hands of serial killer,
that last victim may very well have been saved. And
that's certainly not the only one. The same thing happened
in Oregon. Listen weeks after saying the deaths of several
(30:14):
women were not linked to one murderer, Investigators and prosecutors
say they're working together on the evidence that now links
one person, jesse Lee Calhoun, to at least four of
the murdered women. Kristin Smith reported missing December twenty second,
twenty twenty two, found dead eight weeks later in Portland.
Twenty two year old Ashley Real reported missing in Portland
April second, twenty twenty three, found dead five weeks later
(30:36):
in Clackhamus County. Charity Perry twenty four, found dead in
Eastmolnomah County. Bridget Leanne Ramsey Webster thirty one found dead
in Paul County April thirtieth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Many of the victims who end up in Ladybird Lake
had been partying on Rainy Street. It's a really popular
bar scene and it's just feet away from the river.
Now many believe the party scene in downtown Austin, it's
a beloved destination for bachelorette and bachelor parties, has only
exacerbated the problems. Witnesses are drunk or high, they don't
(31:22):
remember when the victims go missing, or the last time
they saw them, or what time they saw them, and
then the victim ends up dead in or around the water.
How can thirty eight bodies not be connected. Let me
go back to you, doctor Kendall, Crown's Chief medical Examiner,
Terrence County. Let's talk about potential drugging of the victims.
(31:46):
What are your thoughts on any way to link some
of these victims together.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
For instance, a date rape drug.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Could be used like I believe it was used in
the Natalie Holloway case. Or victims could be watched, or
they could be partying with the victim and when they
pull out their own drugs. That's a perfect chance to
rob them or kill them. So I'm trying to figure
out all the various ms most operati method of operation
(32:13):
a killer could utilize in this scenario. So where would
a medical examiner sit into this puzzle to help link
victims potentially.
Speaker 11 (32:25):
So what you can do is when you have a
string of victims all from the same area, or you
start looking for similarities, you know, as they have a
similar pattern of bruising where they similarly tied up, things
of that nature.
Speaker 10 (32:39):
If you're worried about a.
Speaker 11 (32:40):
Drug someone drugging them and then you know, jumping them,
you look for similar if they have similar toxlogic findings.
Because the serial killer, if you will, isn't going to
be switching up drugs between victims. They're going to go
with what works and then continue to use it. So
if the medical examiner has noticed you have a cluster
of bodies from the area and they all have the
(33:01):
same drugs on board, then you have a very obvious issue.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Now I've been looking at a lot of the victims
and Brianna Hollis may be able to help me out here.
KXA in News again, thank you for being with us.
So many of the victims, and of course to my knowledge,
they're dating back to two thousand and eight, but some
of them had facial bruising, some of them had broken bones.
(33:28):
I don't really understand how that can fit into an
accidental death scenario. But what can you tell me about
the most recent victims, Rihanna.
Speaker 7 (33:40):
So obviously we had a case where a body was
pulled from Ladybird Lake. This was near City Hall, which
is northwest of Rainey Street.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Upstream how far from Rainey Street.
Speaker 7 (33:53):
Probably about a mile and a half or so two
miles and this was identified as a few That's all
the information we have, but that is what we know
at the moment of this case. Otherwise, like I said,
most of my reporting has been on the cases dating
back to July of twenty twenty two. I'm looking at
(34:17):
our map and our chart here right now, all kind
of what you guys have been talking about. Accidental drowning,
cause of death undetermined. There's two cases I do want
to bring up the and before I get into that,
I do want to mention that, of course, every death
is a tragedy, no matter how it happened.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
So I go into these details with you.
Speaker 7 (34:40):
Know, the utmost level of respect and sensitivity for the
family members of these victims. Just wanted to put that
out there. But two of the cases that sparked a
lot of alarm were the Jason John case and the
Jonathan Honey case. These were two instances, the only two
incidents in my reporting since I've gotten here, where the
(35:01):
victim was actually last seen on Rainy Street. And in
the two cases of toxicology reports found no drugs but
found alcohol. And then in the Jonathan Honey case, they
found drugs consistent with over the counter I believe allergy medicine.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Okay, so those two victims on Rainey Street did not
have anything such as GHB, gamma hydroxyvity rate or another
potential sedative. But to you, doctor Kendall Crowns, in this scenario,
if people are getting guys or women to party, getting
(35:42):
them drunk, getting them to use drugs, and killing them,
I don't know that drugs would be in their system.
Speaker 11 (35:49):
Well, I they're getting them drunk or any If they
aren't getting them drunk, then yes, or giving them drugs,
of course there wouldn't be drugs in their system. But
if they're giving them anything, it should show up on
the toxicology. But of course you could lure them away
into those areas and then strangle them and push them
into the river or whatever you're doing to them.
Speaker 12 (36:10):
Who knows at this form?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
You know? Another issue, and let me go to Dennis
Franks on this former FBI special agent now with Investigative
Security Global Solutions. Dennis, so many people assume that theft
would be the motive with a serial killer. That's not
necessarily the motive. The joy of killing is very often
(36:36):
the motive.
Speaker 10 (36:37):
I agree, and you know, I'm not a behavioral science expert,
but yet you know these I do not see theft
as being a situation where somebody gets robbed and then
they kill them and toward them in the lake. I
would go on to say that that the oft the
police department has a behavioral science unit or experts trained
(37:01):
in that they should be looking at this, looking at
any patterns anything at all, coordinating with the FBI's and
behavioral science unit, looking at statistics nationwide, and looking for
any clues at all that might whether or not they're
going to admit that this might be a serial killer.
They should be doing this, and I would hope they are.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
All I've been in joining us former felony prosecutor, joining
us out of Austin. You've handled so many homicide cases,
but in serial killer cases, I mean John Wayne Gacy.
He didn't steal from his victims. He molested them, then
he killed them and buried him in his crawls base
off his basement. Ted Bundy, he didn't rob. While many
(37:42):
serial killers do take a mento like jewelry, or they
might take a driver's license or a hair rib and
or underwear, theft is not the motivator for for instance,
Ted Bundy.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I could go on and on and on like.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Ortiz the Border patrol, I said he hated prostitutes, so
we kill them, the boss and strangler for Pete's sake.
He didn't rob the victims. He hated them because they
were prostitutes. So motivation for serial killers is not by
far always theft.
Speaker 12 (38:15):
I agree n answer. In fact, I'm not sure that
I'm aware of any serial killer in history who was
in fact motig Boat up and again, how they special
agent crimes could give us a better participate. My understanding
is that at any given time, the FBI believes there
are only about fifty serial killers operating within the United States.
(38:37):
Mm hmmm, because our lady mentioned a moment ago. If
that is the most is most prevalent crime, that's the
most important crime. Serial killers are not I think. I
think you're right all the serial killers you mentioned, they
are a special breed of people, and they may collect souvenirs,
they may take momentos from the victims, but they're not
(39:00):
they're not robbing their victims. In fact, I'm not even
sure if there's any evidence that any of the bodies
that have been pulled from the late or impact victims
of robbery orth. I'm not sure if any of those
bodies were pulled that had their wallet impacted, their money
still in their wallet. I'm not sure if there's any
association or any connection of that.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Brianna Hollis, what about it, k X A N. Have
any of these victims been robbed?
Speaker 7 (39:23):
Not to my knowledge the ones I've covered.
Speaker 12 (39:25):
There.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
You go, Alan Bennett, what you're saying is really interesting
to me because I disagree with the FBI, and I
certainly don't want to poke the bear. It's like having
a tiger by the tail. You can't hold on and
you can't let go, but it'll be a cold day
in HG double L. There's only fifty serial killers in
America right now.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
No, they may only know.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Of fifty serial killers in America, but I guarantee you
that is woefully, woefully under reported to you joining us.
Brianna Hollis KXA N. I'm curious as to the physical
appearance of the victims. What can you tell me about that?
Are they similar in appearance?
Speaker 7 (40:10):
That's something I don't know directly. The only information that
we've gotten from police regarding this was just difficulties when
it comes to the autopsy and the investigations because of
you know, bodies being in the water with you know,
bloating and decomposition and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Many of them are light complected with dark hair. That's
my observation so far. And as you know to Dennis
Frank's former FBI now in security, serial killers typically kill
within their own race. Also, they have a type a
(40:51):
type of victim to which they gravitate. I mean, if
you look at Ted Bundy's victims, they all look like
then will white females with dark hair, part of down
the middle. There are a few variations, but that's what
you find very very often What do you make of that,
Dennis Franks, Yeah.
Speaker 10 (41:09):
I think that's true. I think that they're usually a
pattern of the victims with serial killers, and I've been
looking at that in these uh you unfortunate does and
it does seem that there the victims do have that
picture of look. It doesn't seem for sure, you know,
certainly there's not random you know, victims or people who
(41:32):
have found that of different uh you know, different looks.
And so that's a factor that I think is important
in this because you're going to look at any pattern
you can, and that's an important pattern, and then you're
going to look for other commonalities. And you know, it's
(41:54):
it's a mystery that they may not say that it's,
you know, a serial killer, but they have to be
looking at it. I just can't see why they wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
The city of Austin has announced that more safety measures
like lighting and fencing around the lake are going to happen.
They're also quote considering part rangers around the water and
more surveillance cameras. Okay, wait a minute, why are you
still quote considering it. I considered it for about five seconds,
(42:25):
and I think you should do it immediately. How many
more bodies have to be pulled fished out of Ladybird
Lake before safety measures are taken. I look for patterns.
There is a pattern. Males within a certain age bracket
(42:47):
from a certain location, on certain times of the night
are going missing and ending up dead in Ladybird Lake.
The lattice remains in Ladybird Lake we believe belonged to
a teen boy. The seventeen year old African American male
(43:09):
was with his family when he goes missing around seven pm.
Now why do we think it's him Because there's an
initial identification of the victim's clothes that matched the description
of the teen boy pulled from the water. Whether the
teen boy's death is foul play or not, it brings
(43:33):
to light the other thirty seven bodies and the possibility
that a serial killer is stalking the city of Austin.
I don't understand how that possibility can be ruled out.
We wait as justice on false goodbye for
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
The city of Austin gripped by fears of a serial
killer as law enforcement reveals thirty eight bodies thirty eight
three eight have been found in and around one lake
in the last days. Another victim, I'm Nancy Grace. This
(00:30):
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
That's right. In the last days, a grim.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Discovery made, a spokesperson for Austin PD says, a teen
boy goes missing Sunday as he was strolling along and
planning to kayak Lady Bird Lake. Authorities immediately launch a
search and rescue effort to no avail. Days later, a
(01:01):
paddle border makes a grim discovery, spotting the teen's body
floating in the water near a busy intersection at West
Riverside Drive at South Lamar Boulevard.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
What happened to the teen boy?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
The artificial lake, Ladybird Lake stretches over five miles.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Was this death an accident?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
We may never know, but the backdrop is thirty eight
bodies found in and around Ladybird Lake.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
For instance, there's Jeff Jones.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
He flies into Austin last year for what he thought
would be a bachelor party. He went to dinner with
his friends and started and headed out to move on
to bars along West sixth Street. Around one am, he
got separated from his friend ends Two weeks later, he
wakes up in the hospital with metal rods supporting his back.
(02:06):
He doesn't remember a thing. Doctors find the date rape
drug or hypnol in his system and told him he
had been found in the water near a twenty five
foot high drop from a bridge. Terrified, Jones thinks he
was drugged and pushed by a potential serial killer that
(02:29):
many believe is roaming the streets of Austin. Listen to
Austin police officers speaking out.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Our initial information doesn't show anything suspicious, but we don't
make that final determination until the medical examiner has been
able to conduct their review.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
As well.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
A lot of bodies been pulled out of the water
off sir, Can you understand the public's concern, worries and
the heighten of alert.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Sure? Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
You know, one thing to keep in mind is that
Austin has thousands of acres of green space and water.
You know, it's a very nature focused large metropolitan area.
So you know, we would just encourage people to always
be aware of your surroundings, you know, and if you
can go with friends, keep yourself safe, right so that
way we don't have unfortunate incidents that that can occur.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
What unfortunate incidents many people call it murder.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Now, I've been researching.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
This and there are many bodies that have just been
recently pulled out of Lady Bird Lake, But all the
way back to two thousand and eight, there have been
suspicious deaths, bodies floating up in Ladybird Lake that have
been deemed accident or suicide. Specifically in two thousand and eight,
(03:44):
read hamad read a mod a dad, a husband, great job,
second job.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
He's found dead in Ladybird Lake.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
His hands and feet are bound and he has tape
over his mouth and nose. Witnesses saw it when he
was pulled out of the water. Multiple witnesses saw that
he was bound and duct taped. But it was ruled
a suicide. How did he bind his feet and hands,
(04:23):
get duct tape on his mouth and nose, and what
hobble into the water and flee himself in That's statistically impossible.
If you look at method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
that assessment is very wrong. But let's fast forward to
(04:44):
now cops and Austin still insisting it's all just a coincidence.
Agree or disagree. Another body just found. Take a listen
to Rachel Benia crime online.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
Another body has been found in Eady Bird Lake in Austin.
At one thirty one pm, Austin Police respond to a
chech welfare urgent call after a nine to one to
one caller reports seeing a body about twenty feet off shore.
Police arrive at one thirty three pm, minutes after the
call is made and find a body of an unknown
person who's pronounced dead. So the body is found in
(05:19):
the same site where other deceased individuals have been recovered
in recent months.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Okay, let me understand what's happening. First of all, let's
go out to a special guest joining us, a Brianna
Hollis crime reporter k XA and News.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Brianna, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
First of all, tell me about Lady bird Like. I
understand it's a man made.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Like to what hold water for a reservoir?
Speaker 7 (05:43):
What is it correct for? You know, the average person
who hasn't been to Austin. It's referred to as the river.
It's I believe about four hundred and seventy acres of
service surface area, and it flows under the two major
highways in town, goes all through downtown, is lined by
(06:05):
a lot of green space, is close to bars, right
by a popular walking and hiking trail.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So let me understand Lady Bird Lake actually has a
ban on swimming in it, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
For most parts of it?
Speaker 8 (06:22):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Because so many dead bodies have been fished out.
Speaker 7 (06:26):
There's other reasons for that as well, just kind of
I believe general safety and bacteria in the water kind
of issues as well.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Okay, I understood that swimming was banned a few years
after Riat Hamad was found floating with his hands and
feet bound and duck tape. After a few more bodies
floated up and officers continued fishing them out, swimming was
in fact banned at Lady Bird Lake.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
But let's move forward to what we know now.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Also near Ladybird Lake is a popular area that includes
food trucks, food trucks, and it's a long rainy street.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (07:19):
Rainy Street in downtown Austin is one point eight miles
from Ladybird Lake. It's a raucous bar and food truck area,
where many of the victims were seen before their deaths.
It's also an area with a long standing reputation for crime.
One theory is that people are in danger of having
their drink spiked so they can be robbed or worse.
Over the last two years, the Austin Police Department has
(07:41):
been investigating crimes where men are being potentially drugged while
out for the evening. KXAN reports in each case, a
man meets a woman at one of the downtown establishments,
and during the course of the evening, the victim is
drugged and the suspect takes off with their credit cards
and cell phone. Investigators say the cell phones and credit
cards been used to commit more than seventy five thousand
(08:02):
dollars in fraudulent purchases and transactions. The suspect uses the
credit cards for physical purchases at various businesses and the
cell phone for banking apps for fraudulent purchases and other transactions.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
This would not be the first time that late night
food trucks have been linked to homicide. Brian Coburger specifically
as to whom I am referring listen.
Speaker 9 (08:28):
To a four murdered University of Idaho students caught on
video less than two hours before they were stabbed to death.
Madison Mogan and ki Leakansolves ordered a ten dollars portion
of carbonara from the Grub Truckers, a food truck at
one for three am. During their ten minute wait, they
took photos of each other and chatted with other customers.
They arrived at the truck with an unidentified young man,
(08:49):
but didn't leave with him. The video was filmed by
the food truck operators as part of a livestream.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Joining me an.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
All star panel to makes sense of what we know
right now. But I want to go to Frank's former
FBI Supervisory Special Agent, President of Investigative and Security Global Solutions, Dennis, thank.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
You for being with us, Good morning.
Speaker 10 (09:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
The food truck and bar and restaurant area along Rainy
Street not far from Ladybird Lake, and I believe in
criminal law there is no coincidence. And I base that
on not only ten years of prosecuting nothing but felonies,
(09:32):
of course, including homicide, serial murders, spree murders, but in
all the cases that I've covered, when you keep having
dead bodies float up in the same lake, you have
to at least consider a serial killer.
Speaker 10 (09:49):
I would agree you count the number of bodies that
have been found in this area over the last several years.
And this is an area where, well don't their motorized
boats are not allowed. You know, there are a few
drownings every year on Lake Austin and Lake Travis, but
these are usually from boating situations and swimming situations. So
(10:12):
this number of bodies in one location, to me, is
not a coincidence either. In there probably I think I've
counted maybe their fifteen bars on Rainey Street and they're
all within distance walking distance of the lake joining me.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
In addition to Brianna Hollis from k x a N
and Dennis Frank's former FBI, another special guest is Reagan Apodicio,
mother to one of the Ladybird Lake victim's son. I
am referring to John Christopher Hayes Clark. He was found
(10:52):
dead April fifteen, twenty three. His CEO d cause of
death even now is un determined.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Reagan, thank you for being with us, Thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Freagan, what do you make a police insisting that all
of these deaths are either accident or suicide?
Speaker 5 (11:12):
I don't believe anything the Austin Police Department says. I
haven't since I've known, since I first got the call
about Chris. It's been crazy dealing with them, and I
haven't had too much clarification on anything of his death.
(11:34):
So that makes me not believe them.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
When you say it's been crazy dealing with them, what
do you mean by that.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Little to no contact with them? I have to keep
basically begging to talk to the detective at the time
when all this happened, I literally only talked to him
two times, met him one time, and the one time
I met him is when they were about to close
the case.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Is the case actually closed? Yes? And what was their
decision as to cause of death?
Speaker 5 (12:03):
They deemed it as undetermined and they closed the case
because they said they had no information on Chris.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Over three dozen bodies have been found in or around
Lady Bird Lake in just three years, nineteen pulled from
the water, the rest discovered on land, police shutting down
suggestions that there is a serial killer name the Rainy
(12:42):
Street Ripper, while half a dozen causes of death remain unknown.
So how can they say that if they don't even
know the cood causes of death on at least six
of the victims. What do we know about the so
called Rainy Street ripper? And why is law enforcement insisting
(13:07):
there's not a serial killer when we don't even have
all the CODs. Reagan Apodiicio, mother to one of the
Ladybird late victim's young son, and he wants to know
what happened to dad? And can I tell you? As
each year passes is going to nag him and haunt
(13:27):
him the rest of his life if we don't get answers,
now is the time to get those answers, really get
hold on just one moment. Also joining us is renowned
medical examiner chief Medical Examiner in Texas of Terrance County.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
That's Fort Worth Lecturer.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
University of Texas, Austin and at TCU, Texas Christian University
Medical School, doctor Kendall Crown's Dodtor Crowns, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Being with us. To me, when a case is.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Labeled undetermined CEOD cause of death and the family has
no answers, that's not a case that I would consider
to be closed.
Speaker 11 (14:09):
Yeah, you're correct on that, Nancy. Any case that's left
undetermined means that the medical examiner wasn't able to figure
out an exact cause of death, and so because of that,
they've left it undetermined in case any investigative information comes
up on a later date, or anything else may come
arise that may change the outcome. So when you get
(14:32):
an undetermined, especially in a case found in a lake
like that, it means that they didn't find anything specific,
because drowning finding themselves are non specific, and so they
didn't find anything that they felt was valid enough to
cause it to give a good valid cause death.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, they're saying that about so many of the cases.
Doctor Kendall Crowns, I want to circle back to you
on obtaining cause of death when a body has been
in the water submerged for a period of time. But
I want to go back to Reagan Apadicio, mother to
victim Christopher Clark's son, question to you regarding the death
(15:09):
of Chris Clark. You guys were together for over ten years.
I understand you last saw him on Easter Sunday, It's correct,
and when he walked out after visiting with you and
your son, you had no idea you would never see
him again.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
When did you learn that Christopher had been killed.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
I learned Sunday after they let his mother know what.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Were you told?
Speaker 5 (15:38):
His best friend called me and he was very distraught
and let me know that they had found.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Chris in the lake.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
And I didn't believe it, and I went to his
mom's house and she told me that the police had
came and let them know that they had identified him
in the lake and that, you know, he was deceased,
and I kind of lost it from there.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Do you know, Reagan, whether he had drugs or alcohol
in his body?
Speaker 7 (16:08):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I do know, Diddy, Yes, you know. That leads me back.
Brianna joining me, Brianna.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Hollis k x A N to.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
The scheme that apparently some women have drugging and robbing
male victims and then they are found in and around
Ladybird Lake. Are you familiar with that scheme? That investigation
by Austin p DA.
Speaker 7 (16:36):
In my experience, when it has come to cases similar
to what you have brought up in the past two
years that I personally have looked into, they have either
been not reported to police or have been unsubstantiated, or
the police department has suspended the cases on the bonus
of the complaint end.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Okay, I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you
saying that you know of other cases where it's alleged
victims were drugged and then robbed but they were never prosecuted.
Whether it's because it couldn't be substantiated or the victim
didn't want to testify, is that what you're saying I'm saying.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
Or because the alleged victims didn't report it to police
at all and it was just social media.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Chatter or okay, people reaching out my question? Do you
know of cases, whether they've been prosecuted or not, where
victims claimed they were drugged and robbed in the area? Yeah, okay,
let me go to doctor Kendall Crown's again, chief medical
(17:44):
examiner there in Fort Worth. Doctor Crowns, I find this
baffling and confusing that so many bodies have been pulled
out of Ladybird Lake, but police are continuing to say
it's all just coincidence. Could you explain to me whether
in life of psychology reports that it could be determined
(18:08):
if these victims had been drugged anyway.
Speaker 11 (18:10):
So the toxicology of reports will tell you what drugs
are in the system, and there are certain drugs that
are used to try and.
Speaker 12 (18:19):
Coerce or to.
Speaker 11 (18:20):
Drug an individual like ro Himbi and I think is
one of the daybreak drugs. But if you're seeing other
types of drugs, it may or may not have been
used coercely. So it's difficult to say this on toxicology.
The problem is, as you pointed out, you have many
bodies coming from the same area in a short period
of time, so you have to kind of wonder if
(18:43):
they're clustering like that, what's going on and what's causing it.
It's more than just as simple, oh, they all happen
to go to the same area and die. I do
feel that that's something the Medical Examiner's office in Travis
and the police in Austin should be really looking at.
Speaker 10 (18:59):
Why are all.
Speaker 11 (18:59):
These same people ending up and dead in the same area.
There's got to be a connection.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I'm sorry, can I say something sure, Chapin.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
There's a lot of talk that all of these bodies
have been found near Rainy Street, and that isn't true.
There have only been I'm looking at our map right now,
there have only been two found near Rainy Street, where
the victim was reported last seen on Rainy Street since
twenty twenty two. The rest of it in all different
parts of Ladybird Lake, which again, if you're looking at
it on a map, that looks more like a river.
(19:27):
So I think it's really important to note that all
of these bodies aren't showing up near Rainey Street.
Speaker 11 (19:33):
That's good to know, yeah, but that's not Laborg Lake
have a current associated with it, so those bodies can
be being dropped at the centralized location and then washing
down the rivers, so they don't look at there.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
That has been found upstream from Rainey Street.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Upstream Ot is that Dodger Kendall crown speaking. Yes, sorry, okay,
doctor Kendall Crowns, you took the words straight out of
my mouth. Because the current leading into and out of
and in Ladybird Lake is considerable and your analysis is correct.
Speaker 11 (20:09):
Well, that's actually one of the reasons why they don't
want people swimming in Ladybird Lake is because the current
is very dangerous and people that aren't very good at
swimming get caught in that.
Speaker 12 (20:19):
Current and drown.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Is a serial killer stalking the Austin area, particularly a
popular nightlife area called Rainy Street not far from downtown.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Austin.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It was the death of Clifton Axtell, forty six. He
was found March twenty twenty three. The cause of death
COEOD ruled undetermined. Other bodies, according to police, are not
being investigated as homicides. So I'm supposed to believe that
these guys, all male, were just drunk and fell in
(20:56):
the water. Police say multiple victims were basically drunk or
high and fell into the water and just died. That
includes Ricky Parks, his body was found July twenty twenty two.
He drowned, Christopher Gutaris, Kyle Thornton, Christopher Hayes Clark. They
were also deemed not suspicious. Two of the victims, Jason
(21:22):
John and Jonathan Honey, were deemed to a drowned accidentally.
Both men last seen on Rainy Street. One man, Hussu Moreno,
shot while driving his vehicle, plunging into the reservoir. You
think that's a heart attack too. Local bartenders state they
(21:43):
have a hard time excepting there is not something much
more sinister going on. I mean, what's the likelihood that
all that we know of, I've got drunk end quote,
fell in the water. Let him go to Alan Bennett,
former felony prosecutor now partner at Gunter Bennett and anthus
at gbafirm dot com. Alan, I mean, you're a former
(22:08):
felony prosecutor like myself. If you're prosecuting this case or
investigating it, do you really care if the victim is
pushed into the water or dumped upstream in the lake
or downstream?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Do you care?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
It's a series of young men of men dead in
and around Lady Bird Lake. So I appreciate the distinction,
and it sounds like a wonderful distinction a veteran defense
attorney might make at trial. But I have handled serial
(22:45):
murder cases. I have argued them to the Georgia Supreme Court.
What are the first ones?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
You'll like?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
This for its analogy to the current case, Alan Bennett,
was a string of young blackmales were killed in Atlanta,
Everyone within a certain age range, everyone African American, everyone
killed with I believe it was a thirty six caliber
in the head in the middle of a sex act,
(23:14):
or so police thought.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But yet no one would say serial killer.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Well, it was a serial killer who would lure these.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Young guys out of a bar, go out to have
sex and kill them? Why? I don't know. Did he
hate himself, did he hate them? I don't know, and
I don't care why.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
But he was a serial killer ever the longest time,
nobody would say serial killer, and.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
But when you have this many bodies, whether they're upstreet,
in the lake or downstream, they all have to be
examined very closely.
Speaker 12 (23:53):
Allan yes, ma'am, I would agree. I think o psychology
reports need to be done on all of those folks.
I can't speak to this investigation directly in I can't
speak for APD, but having worked with APD the last
thirty seven years now, both as a prosecutor, infens learning.
One thing I see across the board, and I'm sure
(24:14):
you've seen us as well, answer across the board. In
law enforcement, any detective, investigator, a forensic analyst, officer, everyone
across the board. Good detective work dictates that you work
the facts, not the theory, and I've heard that countless times.
I suspect APD may take the position that this isn't
(24:34):
necessarily a coincidence. There is a common thread to all these.
We have a bunch of young people in a very
very well working entertainment district, here in Austin a bunch
of bunch of alcohol. They're very close to a very
dangerous body of water with a strong current. They would
say that it's Oncidentally, there are a number in such
a short period of time. And I'll be the first
(24:56):
to admit the number of bodies found in such a
short period of time the old adage where there is smoke,
there is fire. That's a lot a lot of smoke.
But I think former speciality of friends will hopefully agree
with me. You have to work the facts and not
the theory. The facts and the clues will help you
develop the theory. The theory doesn't help you develop facts,
(25:17):
and it may very well be as Miss Hollismans the
long ago APD, they close cases, but they will also
administratively close the case, which basically means we're just not
doing anything right now. We don't have any lease to follow,
we don't have any anywhere this is taking us.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
They're not going to go more.
Speaker 12 (25:34):
If additional evidence comes up, as doctor Brown to mention, absolutely,
they'll reopen that case if they can find that common thread,
and it may as well be the currently APD is
not finding the common thread that our intuition tells us
must be there, should be there, and it must be
something more than simply young folks bunch of alcohol close to.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
A bottley of water.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Now, I know why you want so many cases minute.
I agree with everything that you just said. But for
Austin Police to just come out and announce there isn't
a serial killer at this juncture, I think is highly,
highly premature and a risk to the public because we
really don't know. And you're right, you've got to follow
the facts before you develop a theory. Another thing you
(26:20):
said that I think should be very comforting to Miss
Reagan Apodicio, the mother to victim Christopher Clark's twelve year
old son, is that the cases are not closed in
the TV sense, in the street and vernacular sense of
the word. They are closed, as in, we've got a
dead end, we're not giving up. Well, you don't have
(26:42):
anywhere to go right now. And I got to tell
you something, Reagan. When I became a felony prosecutor, I
inherited a courtroom, a very very busy felony courtroom in
inter city Atlanta, and I inherited about one hundred and
fifty pending cases. While getting about one hundred new cases
(27:02):
every week or so. So the case isn't gone, it's
not done. It's closed for now until new evidence emerges.
And that's why we are talking about this case today.
I want to go to doctor Dana Anderson, forensics psychologist,
host of Killer Psychologist podcast, and you can find doctor
(27:25):
Dana at Killer Psychologist. Doctor Dana, thank you for being
with us. Why do you believe police don't want to
even entertain discussion of a serial killer in Austin.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Well, one reason is you don't want to brighten the public.
You want to create that sense of safety. And maybe
they do have more information and they don't want the
public to know about it. They don't want to create
that panic and fear. Although too late, that's actually already happening.
If you scour the internet, and even this morning, I
(28:00):
went online and looked at the bars on Rainy Street,
the Sidebar, and there's hundreds of reviews saying don't go
out to these places, you're going to get drugged. And
there's lots of information on the internet about these individuals
that have gone missing, and a lot of speculation and theories.
(28:23):
So there is panic and people want answers and it
is concerning to hear that cases are being closed to
prematurely agree.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Agree and again based on what Alan Bennett was just explaining,
the cases may not be closed in the layperson understanding,
they're closed, as in, we don't have any updates right now,
we're waiting for more evidence to be uncovered.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It would not be the first.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Time, by any stretch that a serial killer stopped an area,
while police steadfastly deny any such apparition as a serial killer.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Take a listen to our cut sixteen A.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
This is Dave Mack from Crime Online discussing a recent
spate of murders. For the longest time, police refused to
acknowledge a serial killer.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Alert to the area.
Speaker 8 (29:17):
Listen with Eric Opania's description of the man, the make
and model of the truck. Authorities were able to identify
Border Patrol Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As
authorities mobilized to look for One David Ortiz, they couldn't
find him. After Painia's escape from Martes, officers only knew
of victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they
were chasing after him, they heard about a third body
(29:39):
that had been found, later identified as thirty five year
old Gizelda Alisa Hernetez kno. Believing Ortiz will return to
the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities
head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That's right, a Border Patrol agent was in fact a
serial killer, and if police had acknowledged that these women
were dropping like fly at the hands of serial killer,
that last victim may very well have been saved. And
that's certainly not the only one. The same thing happened
in Oregon. Listen weeks after saying the deaths of several
(30:14):
women were not linked to one murderer, Investigators and prosecutors
say they're working together on the evidence that now links
one person, jesse Lee Calhoun, to at least four of
the murdered women. Kristin Smith reported missing December twenty second,
twenty twenty two, found dead eight weeks later in Portland.
Twenty two year old Ashley Real reported missing in Portland
April second, twenty twenty three, found dead five weeks later
(30:36):
in Clackhamus County. Charity Perry twenty four, found dead in
Eastmolnomah County. Bridget Leanne Ramsey Webster thirty one found dead
in Paul County April thirtieth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Many of the victims who end up in Ladybird Lake
had been partying on Rainy Street. It's a really popular
bar scene and it's just feet away from the river.
Now many believe the party scene in downtown Austin, it's
a beloved destination for bachelorette and bachelor parties, has only
exacerbated the problems. Witnesses are drunk or high, they don't
(31:22):
remember when the victims go missing, or the last time
they saw them, or what time they saw them, and
then the victim ends up dead in or around the water.
How can thirty eight bodies not be connected. Let me
go back to you, doctor Kendall, Crown's Chief medical Examiner,
Terrence County. Let's talk about potential drugging of the victims.
(31:46):
What are your thoughts on any way to link some
of these victims together.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
For instance, a date rape drug.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Could be used like I believe it was used in
the Natalie Holloway case. Or victims could be watched, or
they could be partying with the victim and when they
pull out their own drugs. That's a perfect chance to
rob them or kill them. So I'm trying to figure
out all the various ms most operati method of operation
(32:13):
a killer could utilize in this scenario. So where would
a medical examiner sit into this puzzle to help link
victims potentially.
Speaker 11 (32:25):
So what you can do is when you have a
string of victims all from the same area, or you
start looking for similarities, you know, as they have a
similar pattern of bruising where they similarly tied up, things
of that nature.
Speaker 10 (32:39):
If you're worried about a.
Speaker 11 (32:40):
Drug someone drugging them and then you know, jumping them,
you look for similar if they have similar toxlogic findings.
Because the serial killer, if you will, isn't going to
be switching up drugs between victims. They're going to go
with what works and then continue to use it. So
if the medical examiner has noticed you have a cluster
of bodies from the area and they all have the
(33:01):
same drugs on board, then you have a very obvious issue.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Now I've been looking at a lot of the victims
and Brianna Hollis may be able to help me out here.
KXA in News again, thank you for being with us.
So many of the victims, and of course to my knowledge,
they're dating back to two thousand and eight, but some
of them had facial bruising, some of them had broken bones.
(33:28):
I don't really understand how that can fit into an
accidental death scenario. But what can you tell me about
the most recent victims, Rihanna.
Speaker 7 (33:40):
So obviously we had a case where a body was
pulled from Ladybird Lake. This was near City Hall, which
is northwest of Rainey Street.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Upstream how far from Rainey Street.
Speaker 7 (33:53):
Probably about a mile and a half or so two
miles and this was identified as a few That's all
the information we have, but that is what we know
at the moment of this case. Otherwise, like I said,
most of my reporting has been on the cases dating
back to July of twenty twenty two. I'm looking at
(34:17):
our map and our chart here right now, all kind
of what you guys have been talking about. Accidental drowning,
cause of death undetermined. There's two cases I do want
to bring up the and before I get into that,
I do want to mention that, of course, every death
is a tragedy, no matter how it happened.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
So I go into these details with you.
Speaker 7 (34:40):
Know, the utmost level of respect and sensitivity for the
family members of these victims. Just wanted to put that
out there. But two of the cases that sparked a
lot of alarm were the Jason John case and the
Jonathan Honey case. These were two instances, the only two
incidents in my reporting since I've gotten here, where the
(35:01):
victim was actually last seen on Rainy Street. And in
the two cases of toxicology reports found no drugs but
found alcohol. And then in the Jonathan Honey case, they
found drugs consistent with over the counter I believe allergy medicine.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Okay, so those two victims on Rainey Street did not
have anything such as GHB, gamma hydroxyvity rate or another
potential sedative. But to you, doctor Kendall Crowns, in this scenario,
if people are getting guys or women to party, getting
(35:42):
them drunk, getting them to use drugs, and killing them,
I don't know that drugs would be in their system.
Speaker 11 (35:49):
Well, I they're getting them drunk or any If they
aren't getting them drunk, then yes, or giving them drugs,
of course there wouldn't be drugs in their system. But
if they're giving them anything, it should show up on
the toxicology. But of course you could lure them away
into those areas and then strangle them and push them
into the river or whatever you're doing to them.
Speaker 12 (36:10):
Who knows at this form?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
You know? Another issue, and let me go to Dennis
Franks on this former FBI special agent now with Investigative
Security Global Solutions. Dennis, so many people assume that theft
would be the motive with a serial killer. That's not
necessarily the motive. The joy of killing is very often
(36:36):
the motive.
Speaker 10 (36:37):
I agree, and you know, I'm not a behavioral science expert,
but yet you know these I do not see theft
as being a situation where somebody gets robbed and then
they kill them and toward them in the lake. I
would go on to say that that the oft the
police department has a behavioral science unit or experts trained
(37:01):
in that they should be looking at this, looking at
any patterns anything at all, coordinating with the FBI's and
behavioral science unit, looking at statistics nationwide, and looking for
any clues at all that might whether or not they're
going to admit that this might be a serial killer.
They should be doing this, and I would hope they are.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
All I've been in joining us former felony prosecutor, joining
us out of Austin. You've handled so many homicide cases,
but in serial killer cases, I mean John Wayne Gacy.
He didn't steal from his victims. He molested them, then
he killed them and buried him in his crawls base
off his basement. Ted Bundy, he didn't rob. While many
(37:42):
serial killers do take a mento like jewelry, or they
might take a driver's license or a hair rib and
or underwear, theft is not the motivator for for instance,
Ted Bundy.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I could go on and on and on like.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Ortiz the Border patrol, I said he hated prostitutes, so
we kill them, the boss and strangler for Pete's sake.
He didn't rob the victims. He hated them because they
were prostitutes. So motivation for serial killers is not by
far always theft.
Speaker 12 (38:15):
I agree n answer. In fact, I'm not sure that
I'm aware of any serial killer in history who was
in fact motig Boat up and again, how they special
agent crimes could give us a better participate. My understanding
is that at any given time, the FBI believes there
are only about fifty serial killers operating within the United States.
(38:37):
Mm hmmm, because our lady mentioned a moment ago. If
that is the most is most prevalent crime, that's the
most important crime. Serial killers are not I think. I
think you're right all the serial killers you mentioned, they
are a special breed of people, and they may collect souvenirs,
they may take momentos from the victims, but they're not
(39:00):
they're not robbing their victims. In fact, I'm not even
sure if there's any evidence that any of the bodies
that have been pulled from the late or impact victims
of robbery orth. I'm not sure if any of those
bodies were pulled that had their wallet impacted, their money
still in their wallet. I'm not sure if there's any
association or any connection of that.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Brianna Hollis, what about it, k X A N. Have
any of these victims been robbed?
Speaker 7 (39:23):
Not to my knowledge the ones I've covered.
Speaker 12 (39:25):
There.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
You go, Alan Bennett, what you're saying is really interesting
to me because I disagree with the FBI, and I
certainly don't want to poke the bear. It's like having
a tiger by the tail. You can't hold on and
you can't let go, but it'll be a cold day
in HG double L. There's only fifty serial killers in
America right now.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
No, they may only know.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Of fifty serial killers in America, but I guarantee you
that is woefully, woefully under reported to you joining us.
Brianna Hollis KXA N. I'm curious as to the physical
appearance of the victims. What can you tell me about that?
Are they similar in appearance?
Speaker 7 (40:10):
That's something I don't know directly. The only information that
we've gotten from police regarding this was just difficulties when
it comes to the autopsy and the investigations because of
you know, bodies being in the water with you know,
bloating and decomposition and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Many of them are light complected with dark hair. That's
my observation so far. And as you know to Dennis
Frank's former FBI now in security, serial killers typically kill
within their own race. Also, they have a type a
(40:51):
type of victim to which they gravitate. I mean, if
you look at Ted Bundy's victims, they all look like
then will white females with dark hair, part of down
the middle. There are a few variations, but that's what
you find very very often What do you make of that,
Dennis Franks, Yeah.
Speaker 10 (41:09):
I think that's true. I think that they're usually a
pattern of the victims with serial killers, and I've been
looking at that in these uh you unfortunate does and
it does seem that there the victims do have that
picture of look. It doesn't seem for sure, you know,
certainly there's not random you know, victims or people who
(41:32):
have found that of different uh you know, different looks.
And so that's a factor that I think is important
in this because you're going to look at any pattern
you can, and that's an important pattern, and then you're
going to look for other commonalities. And you know, it's
(41:54):
it's a mystery that they may not say that it's,
you know, a serial killer, but they have to be
looking at it. I just can't see why they wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
The city of Austin has announced that more safety measures
like lighting and fencing around the lake are going to happen.
They're also quote considering part rangers around the water and
more surveillance cameras. Okay, wait a minute, why are you
still quote considering it. I considered it for about five seconds,
(42:25):
and I think you should do it immediately. How many
more bodies have to be pulled fished out of Ladybird
Lake before safety measures are taken. I look for patterns.
There is a pattern. Males within a certain age bracket
(42:47):
from a certain location, on certain times of the night
are going missing and ending up dead in Ladybird Lake.
The lattice remains in Ladybird Lake we believe belonged to
a teen boy. The seventeen year old African American male
(43:09):
was with his family when he goes missing around seven pm.
Now why do we think it's him Because there's an
initial identification of the victim's clothes that matched the description
of the teen boy pulled from the water. Whether the
teen boy's death is foul play or not, it brings
(43:33):
to light the other thirty seven bodies and the possibility
that a serial killer is stalking the city of Austin.
I don't understand how that possibility can be ruled out.
We wait as justice on false goodbye for
Host
Nancy Grace
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