April 1, 2024 • 40 mins
Even though the body of Riley Strain has been found, authorities are no closer to releasing his cause of death.
His body was found submerged in the Cumberland River, eight miles downriver from where he was last seen. Strain still had on the white and black shirt he was last seen wearing, but his boots, pants, and wallet were missing.
The initial autopsy report says no signs of foul play, but the family ordered a second, private autopsy, saying the absence of water in his lungs raises questions about whether or not Riley drowned.
The family is also concerned that Strain was found nearly nude, wearing only his watch and a shirt. Pictures analyzed from the night he vanished show Strain had his wallet in the front pocket of his pants, and he was wearing Justins, which are square nose-style Cowboy boots.
His body was found without the boots, pants, or wallet.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Chris Dingman - Close family friend and spokesperson for Riley Strain’s family, GoFundme: @RileyStrain https://www.gofundme.com/f/riley-strain
- Ben Powers - Attorney with Legal Powers PLLC, IG: legal powers/Facebook: Legal Powers PLLC
- Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” X: @JoScottForensic
- Dryden Quigley – Reporter for WSMV 4 in Nashville; IG: @drydenreports/FB: @Dryden Quigley WSMV4/ X: @drydenquigley
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Scrubbed in sunshine. That is just one of the mini
phrases used to describe Riley Strain. So why now has
a second autopsy been ordered? Very disturbing facts emerge about
(00:34):
the discovery of his body. What does it mean?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
and on serious xem one eleven a second autopsy?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Why?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Take a listen to Dave.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Matt Crime Online.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
The body of Riley's Strain was found submerged under a
log in the Cumberland River, eight miles down river from
where he was last seen. Strain still had on the
white and black shirt he was last seen wearing, but
his boots, pants and wallet were missing. Officials say it's
not uncommon for clothing to come off drowning victims in
the water. The initial autopsy report says no sign of
foul play, but the family is ordered a second private autopsy,
(01:15):
saying no water in his lungs raises questions about drowning.
The claim that the coroner noted a lack of water
in Strain's lungs has not been publicly confirmed.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
That's a problem death by drowning, but no water in
the victim's lungs.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
You know what, Let's don't put.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
The cart before the horse.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Let's start at the beginning to figure out what, if anything,
we can based on the knowledge that we are learning
from the autopsies.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
How did it start? Listen and why?
Speaker 5 (01:46):
What's the exactplication of your emergency?
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Yes, maam, I man, It's seventeen forty sixty First Avenue North,
Nashville's Citnessee.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Lord, First Avenue North in the Nations Office the.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
City good Dam.
Speaker 7 (02:06):
And what happened?
Speaker 6 (02:09):
My company works on the river. I have just found
a dead body.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
I believe it to be Riley.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh you know what, no matter how many cases you investigate,
you prosecute, you cover, when you hear that, it stops
you in your tracks. After all the searching, all the prayers,
all the maneuvers, to hear that I found a dead body.
(02:38):
I believe it to be Riley. Joining me in all
star panel to makes sense of what we know right now.
But first two a special guest joining us, very dear
family friend, family spokesperson for Riley Strain's family, Chris Dingman,
joining us out of Springfold.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Chris thank you for being with us.
Speaker 8 (02:59):
Thank you for having me this morning, Chris.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I know the family is coming off a very emotional funeral,
and that milestone, I guess is something you have to
go through to move to the next point. But I'd
like to address the evidence, the forensic evidence, to try
(03:27):
and analyze what happened to Riley, because I find it
very difficult to believe he fell in the water. Nobody
knew about it, heard about it, heard him yell nothing
at all, and then he turns up without his pants on,
(03:47):
his boots, his wallet, all missing. I have a problem
with that. I've got a big problem with that. I
know you just heard the nine to one one call, Chris.
How did Riley's family discover a body had been found?
Speaker 9 (04:06):
We were the family was actually notified via a reporter
for the police calling us, letting us know that they
had found Riley, which it's not I guess it's ironic
that most of our information has come from the media
and not the police, but that's my personal opinion on this.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
But yeah, we were notified just.
Speaker 9 (04:30):
Literally moments before the police actually notified that it had
not been verified, but they were pretty sure they had
found rightly, which you know put the family in a
spin at that moment. They had been searching so hard
for a positive ending, but also had ultimately found the ending.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, I'm taking in everything that you're saying, but that
feeling that hearing those words is something that stays with
you the rest of your life.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I know, I know that.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
When I first heard.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
That my fiance was dead, I really didn't believe it.
My mind was playing all sorts of games to Oh,
if I can get there, maybe there's been an accident,
I can fix it.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Where is he, I'll fix it.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And it wasn't until I saw my pastor writ Bernstein
funeral home that I realized what was happening. And then
it took me a really long time to take it in.
Who answered that phone call his mom or dad.
Speaker 9 (05:36):
Actually it was a joint call to the family. His
stepdad and mom was at the house. Ryan, his dad
was already out, had just left the house. I think
to go towards the boat to get on it to search,
and I was leaving the house and we noticed that
they'd gotten an important phone call because they got quiet,
but we had to go chase down some leads.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh, I hate that failing Chris Chris.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I hate that family when there's buzz going on, all
of a sudden, somebody's on the phone and everything gets
quiet and you're like, what is it?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
So it was the mom and who else on the phone?
Speaker 8 (06:09):
His stepdad, Chris the other Chris? Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So did his mother expect this or was she completely
floored when she got the news?
Speaker 9 (06:19):
Michelle, At one point we did have a family conversation
of the bad outcome that could happen. She was prepared,
but only as you can prepare a mother that's missing
her cub. You know, she knew that with the days
that went by and the lack of evidence and the
lack of stuff that was being generated at you know,
(06:42):
in Nashville itself by the police department, that it may
not have a happy album, you know, outcome.
Speaker 8 (06:49):
But she never gave up hope to find her her son.
Speaker 10 (06:54):
We never gave up trying, and we were blessed with
the media getting Riley's store out, generating the leads that
we needed because at that point, literally the media, the
social networks is the only leads that we had been
given period as to what had happened to Riley.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Guys, again, thank you for being with us. As this
family mourns the death of Riley, I want answers. So
far we keep hearing that his death quote continues to
appear accidental.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
But you know, I don't get it. I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Ben Powers joining me, high profile lawyer joining us out
of this jurisdiction at legalpowers dot com.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Ben, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Why would they say it quote continues to appear accidental?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
When hit what?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
He accidentally threw his pants, his shoes, and his wallet
and jumped in the water, fell in the water.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
That doesn't make any sense. Why are they saying that.
Speaker 11 (07:58):
Well, so when it comes to the medical examiner, that
type of determination, what they're looking for is clear signs
of trauma, you know, a gunshot wound, a clear stab wound,
something like that. And a medical examiner's determination no signs
of foul play or no signs of trauma consistent with
foul play is a determination that's not static.
Speaker 8 (08:16):
It's fluid.
Speaker 11 (08:17):
So if new information is developed, new information comes forward,
witnesses come forward with whatever they may know, that can
definitely change the determination that the medical examiner makes. But
right now, I don't put a whole lot of stock
in the no foul play trauma determination because someone pushing
Riley in, throwing Riley in, punching Raleigh and tossing him
(08:40):
in that way, or just pushing him down the embankment
is going to look exactly identical to him falling in.
It's indistinguishable the type of injuries.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
You have menpowers.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I hate everything that you just said, and I'm going
to tell you why, but I need backup joining me
right now. Profile medical high profile death investigator, Professor Forensicks,
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
What else can I say?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Let's see and star of a hit series Body Bags
with Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Joe Scott, Now, I know you're used.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
To getting in front of jury's and giving a very
lengthy explanation of coed cause of death, but I have
one question, and it's a yes no Joe Scott, yes
or no. Okay, here's the question. Isn't it true the
death investigators and medical examiners take into account before they
reach their determination, not only the physical evidence that you
(09:42):
get from the body, but extrinsic evidence as well, such
as I had an arson case. Okay, was it an accident?
Did this wife really die in a fire? Well, I
looked at extrinsic evidence, including the fact that her husband
took all of his suits, all of his shoes, all
(10:04):
of his ties to a dry cleaner, multiple dry cleaners
in the area in the days before the fire, called
the weather station and I had him on tape finding
out if it would rain that day the day of
the fire, and also calling his insurance company to find
out what they pay for furniture replacement. And then bam,
(10:26):
his mansion caught on fire and his wife died. That's
extrinsic evidence, not to mention rating his place of business
and finding bags and bags trash bags, black plastic trash
bags as I recall, full of things from the homes,
such as his own family photos, not her, but his family,
(10:46):
his mom, his grandma.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Blah blah blah. That's extrinsic evidence.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So my question to you is, isn't it true the
medical examiner can take into account extrinsic evidence.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
When determining whether there's been foul play.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, can't believe it. He did it, Jackie. He actually
said it.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
In one word.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, so Ben Powers.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
The extrinsic evidence I'm talking about would be the fact
that he doesn't have on pants.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
How's that an accident?
Speaker 8 (11:30):
No, and I agree.
Speaker 11 (11:32):
I think that the fact that he doesn't have on
pants but still has on his boxers is definitely something
of concern because if they're trying to say that the
river current took his pants off, you're telling me that
something that's indiscriminate in tearing his pants from his body
is delicate enough to leave his undergarments. That just doesn't
make any sense. And then when you factor that in
(11:53):
with the debit card found on the riverbank, it just
continues to make so many irregularities of this you have
to acknowledge this doesn't add up. The math doesn't math
because you've got the debit card on the riverbank, the
pants are missing, but the boxer you're still present.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Hold on before I lose the thought, before I lose
the thought empowers I'm going to follow up with Joe
Scott Morgan about the pants missing. But as you've pointed
out twice, and I'm glad you did, because it sparked
a thought.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
If the current had.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Somehow dragged his pants off, why not the boxers too?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
If the current was that strong.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I don't know that I've ever seen a drowning case
where it literally pulled your clothes off.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Hold on just one moment.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I want to go to Dryden quickly joining US investigative
reporter WSMV four. But first let's get some more knowledge
before we reach a conclusion.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Take a listen to more of the nine to one
one call.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
What else do we learn about the discovery of Riley's body?
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Listen, and you said, you guys the time that dead body, yes,
ma'am in the river.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
M well, no barges at this facility. I was checking
around the dock. Uh, it's definitely got a person hair,
black shirt, kind of like a white muddy looking on
the front. It's face down in the water, yes, ma'am,
it's occasion.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
It looks like a mail.
Speaker 6 (13:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I want to hear more of that, not on one call,
because I'm learning a lot of facts.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Listen, well, is he completely submerged or is he right
on that like the sub bed, not the bed, but like,
is he partially in the water, partially out of the water.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
No, he's fully submoted. Be sizes his back sticking out
of the water. I actually had to move a log
off of it, off of the head. To compariment was
a body.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Okay, I have this call up and I'm gonna get
somebody out there. Okay, all right, I'll meet them up.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
I'm gonna make my way up from the river and
here in just a few minutes.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Okay, all right, I'll let you go. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I'm very intrigued, and I want to know if everybody
else has noticed this as well.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Let me just throw it out into Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
This has nothing to do with the body, but you
and I listen to a lot of ninemal one calls.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Is I'm sure you have two been powers in court?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Why do the ninm on one dispatchers always like, what huh,
it's a dead body.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
They're like, not even worried.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Does anybody notice that beside me?
Speaker 7 (14:34):
No? I mean when when you hear her responses Nancy,
you have to understand she's got other calls that have
been coming in. All right, this this is not separated
from her. She has to survive in the environment that
she is, and she has to remain.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Oh please other calls.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Oh there's a fire hydrant running on main street.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Ooh, I see a car accident.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
They look like they've heard their neck. Okay, you know
what that that's what you've got for me.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
She's taking.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Invested.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
I know, she seems like the domestic violence calls, those
sorts of things, maybe armed robberies, we're talking about anything.
National is a big town, Nancy, and so she has
to deal with a lot of things. She cannot have
her voice going up and down in these sorts of things.
She has to maintain calm during the midst of this.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Okay, you can call it calm.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Some people might call it disinterested, but I'm going to
go with what you said. Nashville is the big town.
There's a lot of crime. So she is not my
concern right now too. Dryden quickly joining us investigative reporter
WSMV for dry and tell me, first of all, thank
you for being with us. Tell me about the discovery
of Riley's body, because it's not adding up for me.
Speaker 12 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, it was the second call of the
dead body we got that week. So at first I
think a lot of us were like, is it going
to be him? Is it not going to him? So
when we got this call that they found a body
in the river, a lot of us rushed out there,
you know, to see what was going on if it
would be identified as him, which unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
When you rushed out there, Dryden, what did you say?
Speaker 12 (16:04):
So, I myself wasn't on the scene. We had sent
another reporter there first, but I know that when he
got there, there were a ton of police officers there.
They weren't able to go exactly towards the water, but
you know, they had a lot of officers. I think
the feeling was that, you know, it was going to
be Riley this time.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I don't know how Riley's mom, Michelle even had the
strength to stand up in front of microphones and speak
to the public as articulately.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
As she did.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Bringing home.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Not only has she lost her son, but now that
he's been found, so many questions. You know what, let's
hear part of that nine one, one one more time.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
There's something very significant there. I want to analyze.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
Well, if he completely submergeder is he right on that
like that's the bed, not the bed, but like if
he partially in the water, partially out of the.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Water, No, he's fully smoted, be sizes his back sticking
out of the water. I actually had to move a
log off of it, off of the head to comperiment
was a body.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Okay, I have this call up and I'm gonna get
somebody out there. Okay, all right, I'll meet them up.
Speaker 7 (17:23):
Cup.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
I'm gonna make my way up from the river here
in just.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
A few minutes.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Okay, all right, I'll.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Let you go, all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Chris Dingman is with us a very dear family friend
and spokesperson for Riley Strain's family. They have a GoFundMe
aunt Riley Strain. Chris, the details that we're hearing that
his head was lodged under a log, that his boots,
wallet pants missing, but especially hearing on the nine on
(17:52):
one call that his head was lodged under a log.
Are those facts that the mom Shelle knows, is she
It would break my heart to hear those facts. I
don't know that she's ready to hear that.
Speaker 9 (18:09):
We actually, as a collective group in Riley's war room,
kept a lot of stuff from Michelle, just because as
you deal on a daily basis, and a lot of
people on the panel today, it's a dark world out
there and people like to do cruel things.
Speaker 8 (18:22):
So I am unaware of at this moment.
Speaker 9 (18:25):
I don't think Michelle knew the graphic nature of how
Riley was found, the war room, the dad's uncles, etc.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
Yes, we were quite aware of it.
Speaker 9 (18:35):
And the wild part is Brian Riley's dad actually was
at that location and they pained it that night at
like eleven or twelve o'clock that night in the boat
as a possible location to search with the dogs.
Speaker 8 (18:50):
I do know that too.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Karen Start joining us now high profile TV radio trauma
expert and consultant at karenstart dot com. If you're looking
for her, that's Karen Worth the Sea. Karen, thank you
for being with us. It's bad enough when the one
you love you lose them they die, But then you
(19:15):
find out about a traumatic death, and as you and
I have discussed many times about Keith, you think, oh,
did they feel what happened? Did they know what was
happening to them? My point is did they suffer? What
was that like? And then you find out it could
(19:37):
have been wrongdoing on someone else's part, such as a murder.
It's overwhelming. I don't know how you know, Karen. I
thought I knew it all and my fiance was killed,
But now that I have the twins don't.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I can't even.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Imagine what Michelle is going through.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And now this and the confusion about what really happened
to Riley.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I mean, I'd rather know.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Look, he was rolled by some homeless people, we don't
know who yet, but his pant didn't.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Just float off in the water. That's not what happened.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And I don't believe they, or the war or other
items have been recovered yet, which you would think naturally they.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Would follow the current where the body.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Went, right, Well they haven't, So where are they what happened?
So without knowing the truth, you're kind of left and
some horrible purgatory, some limbo where you don't know what
happened to them.
Speaker 13 (20:42):
Nancy, if you think about what happened with you with Keith, right,
the more details that you're able to have, even though
it's terrific, it's just you want to know. You want
to know exactly what happened, because your imagination just keeps going.
It's not like you could let it go. This is traumatic.
Your child is dead before you. It's not the way
(21:04):
it's supposed to go in the world. And so here
you are with this situation and you're told that his
pants are off. Well, they say that you can take
pants off if you're in the water. He couldn't do
it himself. His boots were off. They found the cards.
So the more details that are confusion that he died
(21:25):
by drowning. But no, maybe not. The harder it is
and they need to have the beginning. Look, they will
never heal from this, you know that more than anyone.
But the beginning of some kind of process to make
them be able to live with this. They're not having
that right now.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Joining me an all star panel, But first I want
to go to Joe Scott Morgan, professor forensic Jacksonville State
University and death investigator. He has investigated over one thousand deaths. Joscott, again,
thank you for being with us. This is a lot
of information to digest it. I want to hear your analysis,
(22:07):
especially about no water being in the lungs in a
drowning case.
Speaker 7 (22:13):
Listen, You're not always going to find water in the lungs, Nancy.
In a drowning, you can have what's referred to as
a dry drowning. Many times this is where you have
actually a spasm that occurs in the organs of the
throat and you can prevent water from getting in. But
here's the problem with this. There's other locations you look
(22:34):
to see if there are in fact evidences of drowning
with a body. And the biggest problem I have with this, Nancy,
is that they have not had sufficient amount of time
to do all of the testing, including toxicology that they
need to come back to. This is an incomplete investigation.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
As far as i'm everything you're saying is extremely valuable.
I'm trying to write as fast as I can. Okay,
dry drowning. You want me to accept that.
Speaker 7 (23:09):
You know whether or not you want to accept it
or not. It's the reality is is that it does occur.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So you can have Oh often have you seen it happen?
Speaker 7 (23:18):
I'd say probably at least a dozen times of the
course of my career. Worked a long time in New Orland.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
What were the circumstances.
Speaker 7 (23:25):
You have individuals that go into the water, particularly in
an inebriated state. This can particularly happen sometimes, and you
can have individuals that have sustained trauma where this occurs
as well, and generally there's going to be some kind
of neurological compromise.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I don't know what that means neurological compromise.
Speaker 7 (23:46):
Well, that means that they have sustained head trauma perhaps, but.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
He he didn't. How do we know because it wasn't reported,
and that it wasn't.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Reported, all right, yeah, well yeah, I haven't reported toxicology
yet either. I think that it's very important.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
The apples oranges.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
See Scott, I know your your game really well when
you throw things on me like neurological What did you say, neurological?
Speaker 1 (24:13):
What compromise?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Is that what you said?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Neurological compromise?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Okay, you're throwing words at me as a medical examiner,
as a death investigator that a lawyer wouldn't necessarily know
what that meant. But guess what I do know what
that means for once. So let me just say then,
you said, when I said, well, there was no report
of a blood of the head or any contusion, any hemorrhage,
(24:40):
bruising to the head, you went, oh, well, there's not
toxicology either, apples oranges. Because you can look at the
body and see if there's a blood to the head.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Easy.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You can't look at the body and know about toxicology.
You have to wait until the as blood tests or
tissue tests come back. So if they're telling, if they're
not noting in the autopsy there's a blow to the
head and there's not a blow to the head, that's
not something you have to wait.
Speaker 7 (25:12):
On, right, You're absolutely right. And so I think that
other things that they need to be digging into here, Nancy,
are something that we look for in drowning, which are
referred to as diatone testing, which are these little algae
creatures that exist in water that has not been released.
As well, I don't know if they're doing diatom testing.
(25:35):
There also any kind of barow trauma, and what we
look for is water in the inner ear. Many times
this happens when bodies have been, say, submerged a great depth.
And yeah, we get water in our ears when we swim. However,
this is something this is deep within the ear, and
many times this happens as a result of force pressure.
(25:55):
I'm interested to try to understand why in the hell
they have release this information so prematurely when they don't
have a complete investigation done at this point in time.
I'm still waiting.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I'm trying to decipher everything you said.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Dry drowning, and you said that you, Jo just got
Morgan have encountered dry drowning about twelve times.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Isn't that what you said?
Speaker 7 (26:24):
That's correct?
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Do you think it's twelve or could it have been less?
Speaker 7 (26:26):
No, I'd say it's probably around twelve.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, around twelve, Okay, And Joe Gott Morgan, how many
death investigations have you conducted?
Speaker 7 (26:36):
I don't know, Nancy, probably upwards of I don't know,
four thousand. I would imagine, so.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Four thousand around, just like around twelve. Now it's around
four thousand. So out of four thousand death investigations, you've
had around twelve dry drownings.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Is that correct?
Speaker 9 (26:59):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
In those cases?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Did you say that often you found a neurological compromise,
plain language, regular people taught blood of the head.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
It does occur, yes, did it occur in those twelve
To the.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
Best of my recollection, every single time they were compromised
in some way, either from a head strike or from
being inebriated.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Somebody I know is going into cross examination mode, and
that would be you. Because when somebody throws out, to
the best of my recollection, that means I may be
right or I may be wrong, but I'm going to
Cya by saying to the best one, I see you
smiling too, I see you. But that said, you're telling me,
(27:39):
out of four thousand cases, you've had about twelve dry drownings,
and in those twelve dry drownings they had, as you say,
neurological compromise, I e.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Blood of the head. Yes, no, yes, Okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So in this case says we don't know about a
blood of the head that differentiates itself from all of
you your dry drownings.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Okay, now that.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
We have ferreted that out, Joe Scott, please just tell
me what you think in regular people talk. No neurological compromise,
no blow to the head, extrinsic evidence. He doesn't have
his pants on. Boots would have just dragged him down
to the bottom. His debit card is up near that
(28:29):
homeless camp. It's wallet's gone.
Speaker 7 (28:31):
I don't I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (28:33):
I don't understand what dragging him down to the bottom
has to do with the condition which his body was
found and where he was found. It is possible for
boots to come off. I have a real problem with
pants coming off, though I also don't know if his
pants were belted as well. That has not been addressed
at all. And here's another thing. This clothes would have
(28:53):
had to have come off early on Nancy because as
the body is in this in the Cumberland for this
protracted period time, I think we're looking at what a
two week period. Forgive me for saying this, but the
body will become bloated during that potential particularly bit of time.
That means that with the bloating comes tension, and so
the body begins to swell. So the probability of the
(29:15):
pants coming off as he's been in there for a
protracted period of time would not have happened at the
end or prior to the discovery. It would have had
to have happened prior to all right, So I think
that that's something else that needs to be factored in
as well.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Okay, that is the Joe Scott Morgan you're hearing right there.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
That is the renow.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Professor at Jacksonville State University and the author of Blood
Beneath My Feet and the Star of Body Bags. With
Joe Scott Morgan, everything you just said is brilliant. I
didn't even take notes because I wanted to drink it
in what you just said. The one thing I did
manage to write down two words. I don't want to
(29:59):
miss anything, And what you just said is critical.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Were those pants built.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Prime stories with Nancy Grace?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
The suggestion that this young man died of a dry
drowning doesn't make any sense compared with the extrinsic evidence
that we have learned to Dryden quickly joining us WSMV four.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
They're in Tennessee. Explain to me where the.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Body was found in relation to all the other points
of antes, specifically that homeless encampment.
Speaker 12 (30:50):
Yeah, so that's right where he went into the water.
So you're walking along this kind of the road on
your right side is going to be this steep, steep
slope into the river. There's no way that he was
walking down towards that river, but there are some homeless camps,
you know, kind of perched along it. But it's very
wooded down there. So if he would have had to
(31:11):
fall or yes, been pushed over kind of the edge
into that water. And then his body was found a
few miles down the river from from where he supposedly
went in or where he was last set on camera.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Chris Dingman joining us.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
The family spokesperson, Very dear friend of Riley's family, Chris,
what does all of this mean to you and the family.
Speaker 9 (31:33):
It's once again we have way more questions and answers.
And to answer one of the panelists, I did confer
with the family last night. Much like my son is
the same height as Riley, and you've seen the pictures
of him. The boys wear belts because they have swimmers'
bodies in essence, and you know, there's very very very
good chance Riley did have a belt on that evening
(31:55):
where the location.
Speaker 13 (31:56):
That went in.
Speaker 9 (31:57):
I'll be honest with you, I'm a very avid outdoors guy,
and it's extreme terrain at the homeless camp area, let
alone the sheer drop off area where the credit card
was found in the debit card. More confusing questions from
the police officer's body cam. If you timestamp it to
where the detention center picks back up where Riley is
(32:18):
no longer seen in any videos, there's numerous, numerous people,
a little computer. They're also walking. That's in that time
era that you know, somebody it wasn't like it was
a you know, three o'clock in the morning. Everybody went home.
There are people cars driving by. We even had one
of the gentlemen say I saw two teslas setting in
(32:41):
the police cam foot eage for the body cam.
Speaker 8 (32:43):
Now they run video twenty four to seven.
Speaker 9 (32:46):
I still personally think that somebody knows something, you know,
whether it was a homeless person or person visiting from
out of town who. I think there was too many
people that was in that area for it just go unnoticed.
That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Agree just Scott Morgan, why was it so significant to
you to find out whether Riley was wearing a belt?
And now that we believe we have the answer from
Chris Dingman that he was. What, if anything, does that
mean to you, Joe Scott?
Speaker 7 (33:17):
It means, Nancy that it would be much more it's
more plausible. I think our potential. The potential exists. As
doctor Bass has said, I think previously that the pants
may have come off. They could, but if they were belted,
it would be a much tougher hill to climb that
the water would just simply pull them off. Because as
(33:38):
was mentioned, this young gentleman is tall and slender. Those
pants are not going to stay up. He has to
have them belted. And again, when you combine all of
these things. I worked a lot of cases, Nancy, where
people's shoes do in fact come off in the water.
The current generally facilitates that, but when you have pants
that come off, that's a completely different animal at that
(33:58):
point in time. That's what you know. Leaves me with
more questions and answers here.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Dry drowning is also known as Lorenzo spasm. As Joe
Scott was saying earlier, how your larynx will spasm. But
would that spasm last long enough if it unspasmed? Would
he ingest water? And if you drown? I thought, the
(34:29):
reason you drown is because your lungs are.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Full of water.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So how can you drown without your lungs being full
of water?
Speaker 7 (34:41):
You can drown without the water present in your lungs.
Because if you'll just think about, which we cover a
lot of these cases, Nancy, is fhixial desks, You're essentially
depriving your brain of oxygen, and so that's going to
be compromised. If he has any substances on board, that's
also going to be another compromising position. But as I'd
mentioned just a moment ago, and I think that this
(35:02):
is important for them to explore. He would still take
on enough water if it could get into the peripheral
system that means out into his organs, into his bloodstream,
and even in yes to his bone marrow. Where you're
searching for diatoms. We take samples of of these areas
of the body and you do an ascid what's referred
(35:22):
to as an acid test on these areas, and you
look for these little creatures that only exist in water
born environments and they kind of spread out. We do
this in drowning cases with great frequency, and so I'd
be curious if they took the time to do that.
And that's only something that happens in the anti mortem state, Nancy.
(35:43):
That means it doesn't happen postmortem. You have to take
these on and they have to be shutted off into
the peripheral system at that point in time. So I'm
still waiting on that, just like we're waiting on tac cology.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Chris Dingman, you inferred that people have been embedded into
the homeless community to get information.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Did they get any information.
Speaker 9 (36:04):
We've got a lot of information that we're still processing through.
Speaker 8 (36:07):
Unfortunately, when all this.
Speaker 9 (36:08):
Went down and due to the media impact in that area,
the homeless, scattered. Ninety percent of them do not want
to be in the lime light or talk to people, etc.
Speaker 8 (36:18):
We do have personally.
Speaker 9 (36:20):
I don't think Metro Nashville is following up on it,
but we do have personally some people that we are
still trying to track down another camps just for information
if this truly was an accident. You know, Michelle has
her son home and they're going to get to have
a proper burreal which was big, big for me on
the side of the family.
Speaker 8 (36:39):
I did not want to.
Speaker 9 (36:39):
Have to bring Michelle home without her son, good or bad.
But Michelle does have that. But now now we're able
to actually dig into some of the stuff that we
have questions on. The priority was getting Michelle, her son
and Ryan and Chris to get them home back in
a controlled environment with love, friends and family and everybody.
(37:00):
But now the dad's in the war room. We need
some answers. You know, We've got questions. Just like on
the panel today, We've given each other information and we
thought we had an angle, and all of a sudden,
now we have one hundred more angles. But no, there's
people of interest that we personally are trying to reach
out to, not because we think there was mal content
(37:20):
in it. But somebody, you know, somebody knows something. There's
just too many people.
Speaker 8 (37:26):
In that area.
Speaker 9 (37:27):
One of the theories was that right maybe Riley had
went around the corner to try to relieve himself. The
young lady from Nashville doing reporting with us in the group,
she can verify that terrain is extreme terrain right there
in Riley. Of all my boys, even though he's not mine,
all my boys, he was the modest one, you know.
He was not a go out in public kind of guy,
(37:48):
like we were raised on the country. So that was
nothing that ever crossed my mind. And also one more question.
Everybody's talking about the boots. I have to let everybody
know those are a size fifteen and if you've ever
had wet boots on our wet shoes, they're extremely tough
to get off. That young man had a size fifteen
shoot on, so boot on. So a lot of questions
(38:11):
we're trying to get answers. Unfortunately, we can do that
at this moment because Riley is home.
Speaker 8 (38:16):
But we need the help. We need the help of
the public.
Speaker 9 (38:19):
That seems to be where we've gotten our answers as
a family and I think there's still more answers out there.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
A dry drowning, no water in his lungs, with no
blow to the head.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
When does that ever happen?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Practically never what happened to.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Riley strain to you been Powers, high profile lawyer in
that jurisdic your way in.
Speaker 11 (38:45):
So for me, the thing that stands out is the
commonality of the things they're missing. The boots, the pants,
and the debit card that's discarded. Those are all things
that are valuable to the encampment where he went missing.
The debit card may have been discarded because you have
to go use it, and to use it, you have
to go be on camera using it, and so it's
too much risk. Potentially, it doesn't have intrinsic value like
(39:07):
the pants and the boots that are missing. I think that,
in combination with all the other evidence we've discussed, certainly
raises a lot of questions that we don't have answers
to today.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
You're right, Ben Powers, those boots have not been found,
and i'd like to know whether anybody's wearing those boots
as we're talking right now to Karen Stark's psychologist, Karen.
Speaker 13 (39:28):
I'll tell you Nancy, they will never get over this.
You know that she's talking about holding babies close. But
the more answers that they have the veteran is for
the family, despite the grief.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
If you know or think you know anything regarding the
death of this son, this beloved son, Riley's train plays
Dowl six one five eight, six y two eighty six hundred.
But right now, let's pause to remember American Hero Officer
Jonah Hernandez, just thirty five years old Los Cruces, New Mexico.
(40:05):
Loved helping those in need. Life long dream of becoming
an officer. Leaves behind wife Yasinia and two beautiful young sons.
Jonah Hernandez, American Hero. Thanks to our guests, but especially
to you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Scrubbed in sunshine. That is just one of the mini
phrases used to describe Riley Strain. So why now has
a second autopsy been ordered? Very disturbing facts emerge about
(00:34):
the discovery of his body. What does it mean?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
and on serious xem one eleven a second autopsy?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Why?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Take a listen to Dave.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Matt Crime Online.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
The body of Riley's Strain was found submerged under a
log in the Cumberland River, eight miles down river from
where he was last seen. Strain still had on the
white and black shirt he was last seen wearing, but
his boots, pants and wallet were missing. Officials say it's
not uncommon for clothing to come off drowning victims in
the water. The initial autopsy report says no sign of
foul play, but the family is ordered a second private autopsy,
(01:15):
saying no water in his lungs raises questions about drowning.
The claim that the coroner noted a lack of water
in Strain's lungs has not been publicly confirmed.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
That's a problem death by drowning, but no water in
the victim's lungs.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
You know what, Let's don't put.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
The cart before the horse.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Let's start at the beginning to figure out what, if anything,
we can based on the knowledge that we are learning
from the autopsies.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
How did it start? Listen and why?
Speaker 5 (01:46):
What's the exactplication of your emergency?
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Yes, maam, I man, It's seventeen forty sixty First Avenue North,
Nashville's Citnessee.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Lord, First Avenue North in the Nations Office the.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
City good Dam.
Speaker 7 (02:06):
And what happened?
Speaker 6 (02:09):
My company works on the river. I have just found
a dead body.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
I believe it to be Riley.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh you know what, no matter how many cases you investigate,
you prosecute, you cover, when you hear that, it stops
you in your tracks. After all the searching, all the prayers,
all the maneuvers, to hear that I found a dead body.
(02:38):
I believe it to be Riley. Joining me in all
star panel to makes sense of what we know right now.
But first two a special guest joining us, very dear
family friend, family spokesperson for Riley Strain's family, Chris Dingman,
joining us out of Springfold.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Chris thank you for being with us.
Speaker 8 (02:59):
Thank you for having me this morning, Chris.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I know the family is coming off a very emotional funeral,
and that milestone, I guess is something you have to
go through to move to the next point. But I'd
like to address the evidence, the forensic evidence, to try
(03:27):
and analyze what happened to Riley, because I find it
very difficult to believe he fell in the water. Nobody
knew about it, heard about it, heard him yell nothing
at all, and then he turns up without his pants on,
(03:47):
his boots, his wallet, all missing. I have a problem
with that. I've got a big problem with that. I
know you just heard the nine to one one call, Chris.
How did Riley's family discover a body had been found?
Speaker 9 (04:06):
We were the family was actually notified via a reporter
for the police calling us, letting us know that they
had found Riley, which it's not I guess it's ironic
that most of our information has come from the media
and not the police, but that's my personal opinion on this.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
But yeah, we were notified just.
Speaker 9 (04:30):
Literally moments before the police actually notified that it had
not been verified, but they were pretty sure they had
found rightly, which you know put the family in a
spin at that moment. They had been searching so hard
for a positive ending, but also had ultimately found the ending.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, I'm taking in everything that you're saying, but that
feeling that hearing those words is something that stays with
you the rest of your life.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I know, I know that.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
When I first heard.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
That my fiance was dead, I really didn't believe it.
My mind was playing all sorts of games to Oh,
if I can get there, maybe there's been an accident,
I can fix it.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Where is he, I'll fix it.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And it wasn't until I saw my pastor writ Bernstein
funeral home that I realized what was happening. And then
it took me a really long time to take it in.
Who answered that phone call his mom or dad.
Speaker 9 (05:36):
Actually it was a joint call to the family. His
stepdad and mom was at the house. Ryan, his dad
was already out, had just left the house. I think
to go towards the boat to get on it to search,
and I was leaving the house and we noticed that
they'd gotten an important phone call because they got quiet,
but we had to go chase down some leads.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh, I hate that failing Chris Chris.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I hate that family when there's buzz going on, all
of a sudden, somebody's on the phone and everything gets
quiet and you're like, what is it?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
So it was the mom and who else on the phone?
Speaker 8 (06:09):
His stepdad, Chris the other Chris? Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So did his mother expect this or was she completely
floored when she got the news?
Speaker 9 (06:19):
Michelle, At one point we did have a family conversation
of the bad outcome that could happen. She was prepared,
but only as you can prepare a mother that's missing
her cub. You know, she knew that with the days
that went by and the lack of evidence and the
lack of stuff that was being generated at you know,
(06:42):
in Nashville itself by the police department, that it may
not have a happy album, you know, outcome.
Speaker 8 (06:49):
But she never gave up hope to find her her son.
Speaker 10 (06:54):
We never gave up trying, and we were blessed with
the media getting Riley's store out, generating the leads that
we needed because at that point, literally the media, the
social networks is the only leads that we had been
given period as to what had happened to Riley.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Guys, again, thank you for being with us. As this
family mourns the death of Riley, I want answers. So
far we keep hearing that his death quote continues to
appear accidental.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
But you know, I don't get it. I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Ben Powers joining me, high profile lawyer joining us out
of this jurisdiction at legalpowers dot com.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Ben, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Why would they say it quote continues to appear accidental?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
When hit what?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
He accidentally threw his pants, his shoes, and his wallet
and jumped in the water, fell in the water.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
That doesn't make any sense. Why are they saying that.
Speaker 11 (07:58):
Well, so when it comes to the medical examiner, that
type of determination, what they're looking for is clear signs
of trauma, you know, a gunshot wound, a clear stab wound,
something like that. And a medical examiner's determination no signs
of foul play or no signs of trauma consistent with
foul play is a determination that's not static.
Speaker 8 (08:16):
It's fluid.
Speaker 11 (08:17):
So if new information is developed, new information comes forward,
witnesses come forward with whatever they may know, that can
definitely change the determination that the medical examiner makes. But
right now, I don't put a whole lot of stock
in the no foul play trauma determination because someone pushing
Riley in, throwing Riley in, punching Raleigh and tossing him
(08:40):
in that way, or just pushing him down the embankment
is going to look exactly identical to him falling in.
It's indistinguishable the type of injuries.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
You have menpowers.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I hate everything that you just said, and I'm going
to tell you why, but I need backup joining me
right now. Profile medical high profile death investigator, Professor Forensicks,
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
What else can I say?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Let's see and star of a hit series Body Bags
with Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Joe Scott, Now, I know you're used.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
To getting in front of jury's and giving a very
lengthy explanation of coed cause of death, but I have
one question, and it's a yes no Joe Scott, yes
or no. Okay, here's the question. Isn't it true the
death investigators and medical examiners take into account before they
reach their determination, not only the physical evidence that you
(09:42):
get from the body, but extrinsic evidence as well, such
as I had an arson case. Okay, was it an accident?
Did this wife really die in a fire? Well, I
looked at extrinsic evidence, including the fact that her husband
took all of his suits, all of his shoes, all
(10:04):
of his ties to a dry cleaner, multiple dry cleaners
in the area in the days before the fire, called
the weather station and I had him on tape finding
out if it would rain that day the day of
the fire, and also calling his insurance company to find
out what they pay for furniture replacement. And then bam,
(10:26):
his mansion caught on fire and his wife died. That's
extrinsic evidence, not to mention rating his place of business
and finding bags and bags trash bags, black plastic trash
bags as I recall, full of things from the homes,
such as his own family photos, not her, but his family,
(10:46):
his mom, his grandma.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Blah blah blah. That's extrinsic evidence.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
So my question to you is, isn't it true the
medical examiner can take into account extrinsic evidence.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
When determining whether there's been foul play.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yes, can't believe it. He did it, Jackie. He actually
said it.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
In one word.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, so Ben Powers.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
The extrinsic evidence I'm talking about would be the fact
that he doesn't have on pants.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
How's that an accident?
Speaker 8 (11:30):
No, and I agree.
Speaker 11 (11:32):
I think that the fact that he doesn't have on
pants but still has on his boxers is definitely something
of concern because if they're trying to say that the
river current took his pants off, you're telling me that
something that's indiscriminate in tearing his pants from his body
is delicate enough to leave his undergarments. That just doesn't
make any sense. And then when you factor that in
(11:53):
with the debit card found on the riverbank, it just
continues to make so many irregularities of this you have
to acknowledge this doesn't add up. The math doesn't math
because you've got the debit card on the riverbank, the
pants are missing, but the boxer you're still present.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Hold on before I lose the thought, before I lose
the thought empowers I'm going to follow up with Joe
Scott Morgan about the pants missing. But as you've pointed
out twice, and I'm glad you did, because it sparked
a thought.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
If the current had.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Somehow dragged his pants off, why not the boxers too?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
If the current was that strong.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I don't know that I've ever seen a drowning case
where it literally pulled your clothes off.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Hold on just one moment.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I want to go to Dryden quickly joining US investigative
reporter WSMV four. But first let's get some more knowledge
before we reach a conclusion.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Take a listen to more of the nine to one
one call.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
What else do we learn about the discovery of Riley's body?
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Listen, and you said, you guys the time that dead body, yes,
ma'am in the river.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
M well, no barges at this facility. I was checking
around the dock. Uh, it's definitely got a person hair,
black shirt, kind of like a white muddy looking on
the front. It's face down in the water, yes, ma'am,
it's occasion.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
It looks like a mail.
Speaker 6 (13:28):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I want to hear more of that, not on one call,
because I'm learning a lot of facts.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Listen, well, is he completely submerged or is he right
on that like the sub bed, not the bed, but like,
is he partially in the water, partially out of the water.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
No, he's fully submoted. Be sizes his back sticking out
of the water. I actually had to move a log
off of it, off of the head. To compariment was
a body.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Okay, I have this call up and I'm gonna get
somebody out there. Okay, all right, I'll meet them up.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
I'm gonna make my way up from the river and
here in just a few minutes.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Okay, all right, I'll let you go. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I'm very intrigued, and I want to know if everybody
else has noticed this as well.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Let me just throw it out into Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
This has nothing to do with the body, but you
and I listen to a lot of ninemal one calls.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Is I'm sure you have two been powers in court?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Why do the ninm on one dispatchers always like, what huh,
it's a dead body.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
They're like, not even worried.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Does anybody notice that beside me?
Speaker 7 (14:34):
No? I mean when when you hear her responses Nancy,
you have to understand she's got other calls that have
been coming in. All right, this this is not separated
from her. She has to survive in the environment that
she is, and she has to remain.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Oh please other calls.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Oh there's a fire hydrant running on main street.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Ooh, I see a car accident.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
They look like they've heard their neck. Okay, you know
what that that's what you've got for me.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
She's taking.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Invested.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
I know, she seems like the domestic violence calls, those
sorts of things, maybe armed robberies, we're talking about anything.
National is a big town, Nancy, and so she has
to deal with a lot of things. She cannot have
her voice going up and down in these sorts of things.
She has to maintain calm during the midst of this.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Okay, you can call it calm.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Some people might call it disinterested, but I'm going to
go with what you said. Nashville is the big town.
There's a lot of crime. So she is not my
concern right now too. Dryden quickly joining us investigative reporter
WSMV for dry and tell me, first of all, thank
you for being with us. Tell me about the discovery
of Riley's body, because it's not adding up for me.
Speaker 12 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, it was the second call of the
dead body we got that week. So at first I
think a lot of us were like, is it going
to be him? Is it not going to him? So
when we got this call that they found a body
in the river, a lot of us rushed out there,
you know, to see what was going on if it
would be identified as him, which unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
When you rushed out there, Dryden, what did you say?
Speaker 12 (16:04):
So, I myself wasn't on the scene. We had sent
another reporter there first, but I know that when he
got there, there were a ton of police officers there.
They weren't able to go exactly towards the water, but
you know, they had a lot of officers. I think
the feeling was that, you know, it was going to
be Riley this time.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I don't know how Riley's mom, Michelle even had the
strength to stand up in front of microphones and speak
to the public as articulately.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
As she did.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Bringing home.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Not only has she lost her son, but now that
he's been found, so many questions. You know what, let's
hear part of that nine one, one one more time.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
There's something very significant there. I want to analyze.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
Well, if he completely submergeder is he right on that
like that's the bed, not the bed, but like if
he partially in the water, partially out of the.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Water, No, he's fully smoted, be sizes his back sticking
out of the water. I actually had to move a
log off of it, off of the head to comperiment
was a body.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Okay, I have this call up and I'm gonna get
somebody out there. Okay, all right, I'll meet them up.
Speaker 7 (17:23):
Cup.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
I'm gonna make my way up from the river here
in just.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
A few minutes.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Okay, all right, I'll.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Let you go, all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Chris Dingman is with us a very dear family friend
and spokesperson for Riley Strain's family. They have a GoFundMe
aunt Riley Strain. Chris, the details that we're hearing that
his head was lodged under a log, that his boots,
wallet pants missing, but especially hearing on the nine on
(17:52):
one call that his head was lodged under a log.
Are those facts that the mom Shelle knows, is she
It would break my heart to hear those facts. I
don't know that she's ready to hear that.
Speaker 9 (18:09):
We actually, as a collective group in Riley's war room,
kept a lot of stuff from Michelle, just because as
you deal on a daily basis, and a lot of
people on the panel today, it's a dark world out
there and people like to do cruel things.
Speaker 8 (18:22):
So I am unaware of at this moment.
Speaker 9 (18:25):
I don't think Michelle knew the graphic nature of how
Riley was found, the war room, the dad's uncles, etc.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
Yes, we were quite aware of it.
Speaker 9 (18:35):
And the wild part is Brian Riley's dad actually was
at that location and they pained it that night at
like eleven or twelve o'clock that night in the boat
as a possible location to search with the dogs.
Speaker 8 (18:50):
I do know that too.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Karen Start joining us now high profile TV radio trauma
expert and consultant at karenstart dot com. If you're looking
for her, that's Karen Worth the Sea. Karen, thank you
for being with us. It's bad enough when the one
you love you lose them they die, But then you
(19:15):
find out about a traumatic death, and as you and
I have discussed many times about Keith, you think, oh,
did they feel what happened? Did they know what was
happening to them? My point is did they suffer? What
was that like? And then you find out it could
(19:37):
have been wrongdoing on someone else's part, such as a murder.
It's overwhelming. I don't know how you know, Karen. I
thought I knew it all and my fiance was killed,
But now that I have the twins don't.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I can't even.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Imagine what Michelle is going through.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And now this and the confusion about what really happened
to Riley.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I mean, I'd rather know.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Look, he was rolled by some homeless people, we don't
know who yet, but his pant didn't.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Just float off in the water. That's not what happened.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And I don't believe they, or the war or other
items have been recovered yet, which you would think naturally they.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Would follow the current where the body.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Went, right, Well they haven't, So where are they what happened?
So without knowing the truth, you're kind of left and
some horrible purgatory, some limbo where you don't know what
happened to them.
Speaker 13 (20:42):
Nancy, if you think about what happened with you with Keith, right,
the more details that you're able to have, even though
it's terrific, it's just you want to know. You want
to know exactly what happened, because your imagination just keeps going.
It's not like you could let it go. This is traumatic.
Your child is dead before you. It's not the way
(21:04):
it's supposed to go in the world. And so here
you are with this situation and you're told that his
pants are off. Well, they say that you can take
pants off if you're in the water. He couldn't do
it himself. His boots were off. They found the cards.
So the more details that are confusion that he died
(21:25):
by drowning. But no, maybe not. The harder it is
and they need to have the beginning. Look, they will
never heal from this, you know that more than anyone.
But the beginning of some kind of process to make
them be able to live with this. They're not having
that right now.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Joining me an all star panel, But first I want
to go to Joe Scott Morgan, professor forensic Jacksonville State
University and death investigator. He has investigated over one thousand deaths. Joscott, again,
thank you for being with us. This is a lot
of information to digest it. I want to hear your analysis,
(22:07):
especially about no water being in the lungs in a
drowning case.
Speaker 7 (22:13):
Listen, You're not always going to find water in the lungs, Nancy.
In a drowning, you can have what's referred to as
a dry drowning. Many times this is where you have
actually a spasm that occurs in the organs of the
throat and you can prevent water from getting in. But
here's the problem with this. There's other locations you look
(22:34):
to see if there are in fact evidences of drowning
with a body. And the biggest problem I have with this, Nancy,
is that they have not had sufficient amount of time
to do all of the testing, including toxicology that they
need to come back to. This is an incomplete investigation.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
As far as i'm everything you're saying is extremely valuable.
I'm trying to write as fast as I can. Okay,
dry drowning. You want me to accept that.
Speaker 7 (23:09):
You know whether or not you want to accept it
or not. It's the reality is is that it does occur.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So you can have Oh often have you seen it happen?
Speaker 7 (23:18):
I'd say probably at least a dozen times of the
course of my career. Worked a long time in New Orland.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
What were the circumstances.
Speaker 7 (23:25):
You have individuals that go into the water, particularly in
an inebriated state. This can particularly happen sometimes, and you
can have individuals that have sustained trauma where this occurs
as well, and generally there's going to be some kind
of neurological compromise.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I don't know what that means neurological compromise.
Speaker 7 (23:46):
Well, that means that they have sustained head trauma perhaps, but.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
He he didn't. How do we know because it wasn't reported,
and that it wasn't.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Reported, all right, yeah, well yeah, I haven't reported toxicology
yet either. I think that it's very important.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
The apples oranges.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
See Scott, I know your your game really well when
you throw things on me like neurological What did you say, neurological?
Speaker 1 (24:13):
What compromise?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Is that what you said?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Neurological compromise?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Okay, you're throwing words at me as a medical examiner,
as a death investigator that a lawyer wouldn't necessarily know
what that meant. But guess what I do know what
that means for once. So let me just say then,
you said, when I said, well, there was no report
of a blood of the head or any contusion, any hemorrhage,
(24:40):
bruising to the head, you went, oh, well, there's not
toxicology either, apples oranges. Because you can look at the
body and see if there's a blood to the head.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Easy.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You can't look at the body and know about toxicology.
You have to wait until the as blood tests or
tissue tests come back. So if they're telling, if they're
not noting in the autopsy there's a blow to the
head and there's not a blow to the head, that's
not something you have to wait.
Speaker 7 (25:12):
On, right, You're absolutely right. And so I think that
other things that they need to be digging into here, Nancy,
are something that we look for in drowning, which are
referred to as diatone testing, which are these little algae
creatures that exist in water that has not been released.
As well, I don't know if they're doing diatom testing.
(25:35):
There also any kind of barow trauma, and what we
look for is water in the inner ear. Many times
this happens when bodies have been, say, submerged a great depth.
And yeah, we get water in our ears when we swim. However,
this is something this is deep within the ear, and
many times this happens as a result of force pressure.
(25:55):
I'm interested to try to understand why in the hell
they have release this information so prematurely when they don't
have a complete investigation done at this point in time.
I'm still waiting.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I'm trying to decipher everything you said.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Dry drowning, and you said that you, Jo just got
Morgan have encountered dry drowning about twelve times.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Isn't that what you said?
Speaker 7 (26:24):
That's correct?
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Do you think it's twelve or could it have been less?
Speaker 7 (26:26):
No, I'd say it's probably around twelve.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, around twelve, Okay, And Joe Gott Morgan, how many
death investigations have you conducted?
Speaker 7 (26:36):
I don't know, Nancy, probably upwards of I don't know,
four thousand. I would imagine, so.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Four thousand around, just like around twelve. Now it's around
four thousand. So out of four thousand death investigations, you've
had around twelve dry drownings.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Is that correct?
Speaker 9 (26:59):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
In those cases?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Did you say that often you found a neurological compromise,
plain language, regular people taught blood of the head.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
It does occur, yes, did it occur in those twelve
To the.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
Best of my recollection, every single time they were compromised
in some way, either from a head strike or from
being inebriated.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Somebody I know is going into cross examination mode, and
that would be you. Because when somebody throws out, to
the best of my recollection, that means I may be
right or I may be wrong, but I'm going to
Cya by saying to the best one, I see you
smiling too, I see you. But that said, you're telling me,
(27:39):
out of four thousand cases, you've had about twelve dry drownings,
and in those twelve dry drownings they had, as you say,
neurological compromise, I e.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Blood of the head. Yes, no, yes, Okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So in this case says we don't know about a
blood of the head that differentiates itself from all of
you your dry drownings.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Okay, now that.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
We have ferreted that out, Joe Scott, please just tell
me what you think in regular people talk. No neurological compromise,
no blow to the head, extrinsic evidence. He doesn't have
his pants on. Boots would have just dragged him down
to the bottom. His debit card is up near that
(28:29):
homeless camp. It's wallet's gone.
Speaker 7 (28:31):
I don't I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (28:33):
I don't understand what dragging him down to the bottom
has to do with the condition which his body was
found and where he was found. It is possible for
boots to come off. I have a real problem with
pants coming off, though I also don't know if his
pants were belted as well. That has not been addressed
at all. And here's another thing. This clothes would have
(28:53):
had to have come off early on Nancy because as
the body is in this in the Cumberland for this
protracted period time, I think we're looking at what a
two week period. Forgive me for saying this, but the
body will become bloated during that potential particularly bit of time.
That means that with the bloating comes tension, and so
the body begins to swell. So the probability of the
(29:15):
pants coming off as he's been in there for a
protracted period of time would not have happened at the
end or prior to the discovery. It would have had
to have happened prior to all right, So I think
that that's something else that needs to be factored in
as well.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Okay, that is the Joe Scott Morgan you're hearing right there.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
That is the renow.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Professor at Jacksonville State University and the author of Blood
Beneath My Feet and the Star of Body Bags. With
Joe Scott Morgan, everything you just said is brilliant. I
didn't even take notes because I wanted to drink it
in what you just said. The one thing I did
manage to write down two words. I don't want to
(29:59):
miss anything, And what you just said is critical.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Were those pants built.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Prime stories with Nancy Grace?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
The suggestion that this young man died of a dry
drowning doesn't make any sense compared with the extrinsic evidence
that we have learned to Dryden quickly joining us WSMV four.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
They're in Tennessee. Explain to me where the.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Body was found in relation to all the other points
of antes, specifically that homeless encampment.
Speaker 12 (30:50):
Yeah, so that's right where he went into the water.
So you're walking along this kind of the road on
your right side is going to be this steep, steep
slope into the river. There's no way that he was
walking down towards that river, but there are some homeless camps,
you know, kind of perched along it. But it's very
wooded down there. So if he would have had to
(31:11):
fall or yes, been pushed over kind of the edge
into that water. And then his body was found a
few miles down the river from from where he supposedly
went in or where he was last set on camera.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Chris Dingman joining us.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
The family spokesperson, Very dear friend of Riley's family, Chris,
what does all of this mean to you and the family.
Speaker 9 (31:33):
It's once again we have way more questions and answers.
And to answer one of the panelists, I did confer
with the family last night. Much like my son is
the same height as Riley, and you've seen the pictures
of him. The boys wear belts because they have swimmers'
bodies in essence, and you know, there's very very very
good chance Riley did have a belt on that evening
(31:55):
where the location.
Speaker 13 (31:56):
That went in.
Speaker 9 (31:57):
I'll be honest with you, I'm a very avid outdoors guy,
and it's extreme terrain at the homeless camp area, let
alone the sheer drop off area where the credit card
was found in the debit card. More confusing questions from
the police officer's body cam. If you timestamp it to
where the detention center picks back up where Riley is
(32:18):
no longer seen in any videos, there's numerous, numerous people,
a little computer. They're also walking. That's in that time
era that you know, somebody it wasn't like it was
a you know, three o'clock in the morning. Everybody went home.
There are people cars driving by. We even had one
of the gentlemen say I saw two teslas setting in
(32:41):
the police cam foot eage for the body cam.
Speaker 8 (32:43):
Now they run video twenty four to seven.
Speaker 9 (32:46):
I still personally think that somebody knows something, you know,
whether it was a homeless person or person visiting from
out of town who. I think there was too many
people that was in that area for it just go unnoticed.
That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Agree just Scott Morgan, why was it so significant to
you to find out whether Riley was wearing a belt?
And now that we believe we have the answer from
Chris Dingman that he was. What, if anything, does that
mean to you, Joe Scott?
Speaker 7 (33:17):
It means, Nancy that it would be much more it's
more plausible. I think our potential. The potential exists. As
doctor Bass has said, I think previously that the pants
may have come off. They could, but if they were belted,
it would be a much tougher hill to climb that
the water would just simply pull them off. Because as
(33:38):
was mentioned, this young gentleman is tall and slender. Those
pants are not going to stay up. He has to
have them belted. And again, when you combine all of
these things. I worked a lot of cases, Nancy, where
people's shoes do in fact come off in the water.
The current generally facilitates that, but when you have pants
that come off, that's a completely different animal at that
(33:58):
point in time. That's what you know. Leaves me with
more questions and answers here.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Dry drowning is also known as Lorenzo spasm. As Joe
Scott was saying earlier, how your larynx will spasm. But
would that spasm last long enough if it unspasmed? Would
he ingest water? And if you drown? I thought, the
(34:29):
reason you drown is because your lungs are.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Full of water.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So how can you drown without your lungs being full
of water?
Speaker 7 (34:41):
You can drown without the water present in your lungs.
Because if you'll just think about, which we cover a
lot of these cases, Nancy, is fhixial desks, You're essentially
depriving your brain of oxygen, and so that's going to
be compromised. If he has any substances on board, that's
also going to be another compromising position. But as I'd
mentioned just a moment ago, and I think that this
(35:02):
is important for them to explore. He would still take
on enough water if it could get into the peripheral
system that means out into his organs, into his bloodstream,
and even in yes to his bone marrow. Where you're
searching for diatoms. We take samples of of these areas
of the body and you do an ascid what's referred
(35:22):
to as an acid test on these areas, and you
look for these little creatures that only exist in water
born environments and they kind of spread out. We do
this in drowning cases with great frequency, and so I'd
be curious if they took the time to do that.
And that's only something that happens in the anti mortem state, Nancy.
(35:43):
That means it doesn't happen postmortem. You have to take
these on and they have to be shutted off into
the peripheral system at that point in time. So I'm
still waiting on that, just like we're waiting on tac cology.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Chris Dingman, you inferred that people have been embedded into
the homeless community to get information.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Did they get any information.
Speaker 9 (36:04):
We've got a lot of information that we're still processing through.
Speaker 8 (36:07):
Unfortunately, when all this.
Speaker 9 (36:08):
Went down and due to the media impact in that area,
the homeless, scattered. Ninety percent of them do not want
to be in the lime light or talk to people, etc.
Speaker 8 (36:18):
We do have personally.
Speaker 9 (36:20):
I don't think Metro Nashville is following up on it,
but we do have personally some people that we are
still trying to track down another camps just for information
if this truly was an accident. You know, Michelle has
her son home and they're going to get to have
a proper burreal which was big, big for me on
the side of the family.
Speaker 8 (36:39):
I did not want to.
Speaker 9 (36:39):
Have to bring Michelle home without her son, good or bad.
But Michelle does have that. But now now we're able
to actually dig into some of the stuff that we
have questions on. The priority was getting Michelle, her son
and Ryan and Chris to get them home back in
a controlled environment with love, friends and family and everybody.
(37:00):
But now the dad's in the war room. We need
some answers. You know, We've got questions. Just like on
the panel today, We've given each other information and we
thought we had an angle, and all of a sudden,
now we have one hundred more angles. But no, there's
people of interest that we personally are trying to reach
out to, not because we think there was mal content
(37:20):
in it. But somebody, you know, somebody knows something. There's
just too many people.
Speaker 8 (37:26):
In that area.
Speaker 9 (37:27):
One of the theories was that right maybe Riley had
went around the corner to try to relieve himself. The
young lady from Nashville doing reporting with us in the group,
she can verify that terrain is extreme terrain right there
in Riley. Of all my boys, even though he's not mine,
all my boys, he was the modest one, you know.
He was not a go out in public kind of guy,
(37:48):
like we were raised on the country. So that was
nothing that ever crossed my mind. And also one more question.
Everybody's talking about the boots. I have to let everybody
know those are a size fifteen and if you've ever
had wet boots on our wet shoes, they're extremely tough
to get off. That young man had a size fifteen
shoot on, so boot on. So a lot of questions
(38:11):
we're trying to get answers. Unfortunately, we can do that
at this moment because Riley is home.
Speaker 8 (38:16):
But we need the help. We need the help of
the public.
Speaker 9 (38:19):
That seems to be where we've gotten our answers as
a family and I think there's still more answers out there.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
A dry drowning, no water in his lungs, with no
blow to the head.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
When does that ever happen?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Practically never what happened to.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Riley strain to you been Powers, high profile lawyer in
that jurisdic your way in.
Speaker 11 (38:45):
So for me, the thing that stands out is the
commonality of the things they're missing. The boots, the pants,
and the debit card that's discarded. Those are all things
that are valuable to the encampment where he went missing.
The debit card may have been discarded because you have
to go use it, and to use it, you have
to go be on camera using it, and so it's
too much risk. Potentially, it doesn't have intrinsic value like
(39:07):
the pants and the boots that are missing. I think that,
in combination with all the other evidence we've discussed, certainly
raises a lot of questions that we don't have answers
to today.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
You're right, Ben Powers, those boots have not been found,
and i'd like to know whether anybody's wearing those boots
as we're talking right now to Karen Stark's psychologist, Karen.
Speaker 13 (39:28):
I'll tell you Nancy, they will never get over this.
You know that she's talking about holding babies close. But
the more answers that they have the veteran is for
the family, despite the grief.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
If you know or think you know anything regarding the
death of this son, this beloved son, Riley's train plays
Dowl six one five eight, six y two eighty six hundred.
But right now, let's pause to remember American Hero Officer
Jonah Hernandez, just thirty five years old Los Cruces, New Mexico.
(40:05):
Loved helping those in need. Life long dream of becoming
an officer. Leaves behind wife Yasinia and two beautiful young sons.
Jonah Hernandez, American Hero. Thanks to our guests, but especially
to you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!