January 3, 2024 • 40 mins
From Jack the Ripper to Ted Bundy, serial killers strike fear in the hearts of almost everyone; and not just fear, but fascination.
What motivates someone to become a serial killer? Is it rage or hate? Today, Nancy Grace and her panel look at three well-known cases including BTK Bind, Torture, Kill - Dennis Rader.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Dale Carson – High-profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself”
- Dr. Joni Johnston – Forensic Psychologist and Private Investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask”
- Frank Falzon - Former San Francisco Homicide Inspector and Author: “San Francisco Homicide Inspector 5-Henry-7: My Inside Story of the Night Stalker, City Hall Murders, Zebra Killings, Chinatown Gang Wars and a City Under Siege”
- Douglas MacGregor – Geographic Profiler (specializes in serial and violent crime, missing persons, and locating clandestine burial sites); Twitter: @TheGeoProfilerer
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School
- Dr. Peter Vronsky - Forensic Historian and Author of Several Best-selling Books on the History of Serial Homicide, including: “American Serial Killers: The Epidemic Years, 1960-1960” and ‘Sons of Cain: A History of Serial Killers from the Stone Age to the Present;" IG: @dr.petervronsky Facebook: Peter Vronsky
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Are there more serial killers walking amongst us? Or are
we just learning about them more often from new victims
in the BTK prosecution. In the last days, shares have
(00:33):
been searching a rural area in Butler County in Kansas
in connection to BTK. Are they onto even more bodies
victims of buying torture kill? Dennis Wraiter the dogcatcher? Then,
is a Border patrol agent actually a serial killer? And
(00:56):
to Oregon where I feel very confident a serial killer
is stalking.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thank you for being with us here on crime stories
and serious XM one eleven. Speaking of Dennis Rader, it
was his idea for the media to call him BTK
buying torture kill, so I call him the Dogcatcher. In
the last days, a new search listened.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information
with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize
the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement,
you might not know what can be released to the public.
So homeowners of property in Butler County, Kansas, say sheriff's
deputies and investigators were on their property for seven hours
looking for evidence related to a missing person's case. They
(01:46):
couldn't remember the name of the person they were looking for,
but they did remember the person was sixteen. Cynthia don
Kenny was sixteen when she vanished. The property owners added
that the Osh County Sheriff's Office came to the property
in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out,
but the property owners saying nothing was found. Alena Burrows
with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSNTV, quote, we have
(02:08):
received information that Dennis Rader has been on this property
at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force
is here to follow up on those leads.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, I'm telling you right now, if BTK Dennish Raider
the Dogcatcher has been strolling around rural Butler County, I
guarantee you it's connected to a case. With me an
all star panel to make sense of what we know
right now. But first to a member along with me
(02:36):
on the BTK Special Task for Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder,
Director Cold Case Research Institute, and host of a new
hit series Zone Seven. Cheryl, I know there's a lot
that you and I cannot discuss being on the task force,
but the homeowners have now come forward and stated the
(03:00):
Osage County and for law enforcement was on their property
looking for evidence as it relates to sixteen.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Year old Cynthia don Kenney. What do you make of it?
Speaker 5 (03:13):
You and I can certainly confirm that. I mean, it
was on TV. And what's important is this information that
came forward from the landowner, the actual homeowner. It was
credible enough that scher Dierden felt like we need to
get out there and do our due diligence to find
out can we connect him with anything from that property,
(03:35):
And that's what we did.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I'll tell you one thing to doctor Peter Vronsky joining
us out of Toronto. You're a forensic historian, author of
multiple best selling books on serial killers, including American serial Killers,
The Epidemic Years and Sons of Cain, Doctor Vronsky, if
(03:58):
Dennis Raider I spotted walking around your rural property, you
better call in the scent dogs FRONTO agree, disagree?
Speaker 6 (04:07):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (04:07):
I agree. It's absolutely possible and plausible. This is what
serial killers often do, and I'm sure there could be
plausibly lots of cases still out there that he kind
of has kept to himself as little tokens of control.
He maybe let go of a few, but there's some
(04:30):
he could be nurturing. And in fact, I'm in the
middle of something like this with a serial killer in
Long Island with cases going back to nineteen sixty eight
to nineteen seventy three, which we closed there last December.
So this is not unusual what is happening, and.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
It's not unusual at all. Now, why would we connect
BTK with sixteen year old Cynthia don Kenney.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Listen?
Speaker 4 (04:57):
The nineteen seventy six unsolved disappearance sixteen year old Cynthia
don Kenny, who was last seen working out a laundromat
and o Saj, Oklahoma, is back in the news. Dennis
Raider BTK confirmed that he was questioned by Oklahoma investigators
about the cold case because of the visits he made
to the area at the time of Kenny's disappearance. Raider,
who confessed in detail to other murders, denies any involvement
(05:20):
in this case. However, Osage County Sheriff Eddie Verdon has
read Raider's journals from cover to cover and believes the
killer left clues. One of Rader's journal entries around the
time of Kenney's disappearance was laundromats were a good place
to watch victims and dream. It was Sheriff Virden's Osage
County Sheriff's office that went out to the site of
the killer's former home and found pantyhose tied in a knot,
(05:43):
something raider would have used to strangle a victim.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It is just too much of a coincidence that he's
talking about.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Finding a murder victim, a female murder victim at a laundrymat,
and then Cynthia Kenny or a victim goes missing or
had been connected to a laundromat. Joining me right now
is Douglas McGregor. You know him well, geographic profiler who
specializes in serial killing and violent crime. You can find
(06:14):
him at the geo Profiler. Douglas McGregor, Thank you for
being with us. How do you think the connection holds
up in a court of law between the Butler County
this rural area search in Kansas to the Oklahoma serial
killing activity.
Speaker 8 (06:33):
The investigators would have to find would have to do
a linkage analysis and see you.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Slow down, slow down, a linkage analysis.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
What yeah, so they'd have to see if there's enough
common factors between the crimes there and the crimes that
he committed in the past, and obviously the laundromat is
is one promising lead. Dennis Raider Traditionally, his crimes that
he's been convicted for, he's a he's a home based
(07:00):
offender or a marauder, so he attacks from his home
and his activity space is surrounded is around his home area,
his residence. But these other crimes, they're outside of that area,
so they would have to find other than geography, they
would have to find other common linkages to link him
(07:22):
to those crimes.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, what about our cut five?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Listen to this members of the panel BTK talking about
might be something left in some old barn.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
As Dennis Raider, the self proclaimed BTK serial killer, is
now the prime suspect in the Cynthia Kinney case, some
old information has become new again, such as the sheriff's
office received an anonymous call shortly after Kinney's disappearance. The
male caller said that she was located in an old barn.
There is no evidence that that lead was ever followed up,
(07:58):
but authorities are now looking at detailed drawings made by
Raider showing young girls tied and bound in barns. There
is also a conversation heard on one of Rader's prison
phone calls this past August. On the call he has
heard to say, quote, there might still be something in
some old barn too.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Frank fell Zone joining us out of California. Former San
Francisco Homicide Inspector, author of San Francisco Homicide Inspector five
Dash Henry Dash seven My inside story of the knight Stalker,
City Hall murders and zebra killings, Chinatown, game wars and
a city under siege.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Wow, you know your stuff? Fell Zone.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Question to you, Frank, when you are hearing this conversation
that Dennis Raider, the dog catching killer, is having. What
people still don't know their calls are being recorded behind bars.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
Well, everything boils down to what your jurisdiction and the
prosecution needs to make a conviction. I always found that
your crime scene tells you a story, and that story
gets you going in the right direction, and then it's
just following the leads and each lead has to be
(09:19):
developed to its fullest. The night Stalker case in the
Bay Area that terrified the state of California. That case
was broke on a bracelet that was taken during one
of the Hot Proud burglaries in the residence of a doctor.
So you never know what little link is going to
break your case. But the serial murderers, the killers that
(09:42):
stalk people, they're out there and they're going to be
out there forever. And it seems like with the media
glorifying these individuals, there's going to be no end to
what's happening in our country.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I got an answer film. Serial killers are going to
keep on killing, whether they're found out or not found out,
whether the publicized or not publicized. But you do speak
the truth, specifically as it relates to Dennis Raider BTK,
because he loves what he believes to be the adulation
of the media. What it really is.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Is discussed.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Time stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Cheryl McCollum.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
The fact that he says behind bars, I know you
can talk about this because it's out there. This is
not part of what we're learning on the task Force.
He says in a phone call on a prison call,
and this is just a couple of months ago. He
says there might still be something in some old barn.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Owned the property in rural Butler County. There were several barns,
so again we had to do our due diligence in
search those and see if there was any connection that
we could make to.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Doctor Kendall Crowns joining me now medical examiner joining us
out of Fort Worth Lecturer University, Texas and TCU Medical School.
Doctor Kendall Crowns, while you're from the same town as BTK,
I hope you don't know each other. But that said,
if a body had been placed or a victim had
(11:24):
been placed in a barn so long ago, searching now,
it's highly unlikely that there would be any DNA evidence
or any evidence left of the victim unless something had
been buried, and he's known for burying trophies. But address
that if you could, doctor Crowns.
Speaker 9 (11:42):
So yes, BPK and I are from the same hometown.
He was actually one of my dad's students at the university,
which Costa University. But if he left the body above ground,
now it's been out for decades, it would be desiccated
or dried up up and there really wouldn't be anything
that you could probably get from it for DNA. Now,
(12:06):
if it was buried, and it was buried deep, it
could have delayed the decomposition process, so there could be
still a tissue remaining muscle, dried muscle, or even bone
marrow that could be extracted from the bones to do
DNA testing from.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Even though sometimes as you well know, Cheryl McCollum, and
I'll throw this to Del Carson, high profile lawyer adjoining
side the Jacksonville jurisdiction but also FORMERPI agent and author
of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find them at del
carsonlaw dot com. Deal thinking back to your days, is
(12:44):
a fed as an agent, Even when you know you're
not going to be able to find something, you still
have to look well.
Speaker 7 (12:50):
Absolutely, and the advantage to a barn is that it's
kept out of the weather. The result is if there
is any processable material left, it's liable to be in
more or less of Christine State compared to being out
in the woods somewhere where it would be affected by
rain and so normal.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And there's the possibility, Cheryl McCollum, we know he high
squirrels things away, he buries them.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Would do you bury something out in one of these barns?
Speaker 5 (13:22):
I don't know, absolutely, I mean he could have buried
a souvenir that he took from a scene. He talks
about that. We know that from serial killers throughout history,
they will take items and they want to secure them
for their own pleasure. So there's no doubt that something
that needs to be explored at every possible scene.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
And there's the issue of pictures tied to another crime scene.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Take a listen our cuts seven in this.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Raider is also considered the prime suspect in the murder
of Shawna Beth Garber. The twenty two year old Garber
was found rape strangled and hogtied in Missouri on December
tecond nineteen ninety, but she was not identified until twenty
twenty one. Until then, she was known as Grace Doe.
When her body was identified, investigators found out that Shauna
Garber went missing from Topeka, Kansas, on November third, nineteen ninety.
(14:13):
Dennis Raider was named a prime suspect in her murder
when photos were found in one of his journals that
directly tie him to the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
To Cheryl McCollum, who is on the BTK Task Force
along with me, this is also information that has not
been kept confidential the photos found in his journal, Why
did those photos tie him to Shauna Garber?
Speaker 5 (14:38):
The photographs again are going to be something that depicts
the location, and he puts himself there, So it's not
something that can be ignored. With the Garber case, he's
one of a few persons of interest that again they've
got to rule him in or rule him out. Can
they put him there on the dates that she went missing?
(15:01):
Is there anything that he has said in the past
that puts him with her or speaks to her? And
keep in mind a lot of these folks study one another.
Even recently with the Long Island serial killer, Dennis Raider
has come out and made statements about that situation. So
it's something he could have been writing about because he
was knowledgeable of it. I don't know that Garber is
(15:24):
one of his victims. I'm not completely bought in on that,
but again you've got to look at it and really
ment or really.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Out well, I'm telling you, and I think that doctor
Joni Johnson will agree. Forensic psychologist Pi, author of Serial
Killers one hundred and one, questions true crime fans ask
there are going to be other BTK victims.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
I have no question about that. Dr Johnson.
Speaker 7 (15:49):
I I agree with you, Nancy.
Speaker 10 (15:51):
I would be absolutely stinned to think that he has
only killed people he's confessed to, because this issue of
power and controlling, being able to play games with people,
and it's so complicated when we talk about sexually motivated
derial killer. So I completely agree with you. Whether the
task forces investigating are included or not, there's no question
he has other victims out there that he has not
(16:11):
confessed to.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And now we turn our attention to what many believe
is another serial killer. Take listen now are cut ten
from crimeonline dot Com.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
The border city of Laredo, Texas, appeared to have a
possible serial killer on the loose. In a period of
twelve days, two sex workers have been picked up from
an area known to locals as the prostitution blocks on
San Bernardo Avenue in Laredo, taken out her remote areas
northwest of the city, and shaw in the head When
a special law enforcement team was put together to hunt
down a possible serial killer kidnapping and murdering sex workers,
(16:44):
David Ortiz, the intelligence supervisor for the Border Patrol, was
asked to join the team.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
David Ortiz asked to join the team. We believe the
first victim may have been Melissa Ramirez.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Take a listen.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
On September fourth, when Melissa Ramirez didn't come home, her mother,
Christina Benevitez, went looking for her daughter on San Bernardo.
She came across forty two year old Claudine Ann Luerra,
one of Melissa Ramire's friends, on the street, and asked
her if she had seen Melissa. Lua hadn't. Ten days later,
on September thirteenth, friends would be looking for Claudine and
(17:20):
Luerra when she didn't come home. Twenty nine year old
Melissa Ramerez was on San Bernardo Boulevard on the prostitution
blocks when she sees a familiar white truck pull over
to talk. She knows the driver is David, a military man, tall, handsome.
They've done this before, so the mother of two gets
in the truck. As they drive down a rural country
road about two miles outside the city, David stops the
(17:42):
car from Melissa to get out and relieve herself. Without warning,
David shoots her in the head multiple times. Her body
is not discovered until the next day.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Doctor Peter Ronsky joining us out of Toronto, Doctor Ronsky,
what do you make of them? The modus operanda in
this particular case.
Speaker 7 (18:02):
This is a very interesting case, and it's almost like
a new species of serial killers who are emerging in
the prime of their career, like that colonel in Canada,
Colonel Russell Williams, who suddenly in his forties is becoming
transforming almost into a serial killer. There's nothing in his
(18:22):
background that would suggest that he is a budding serial killer,
and yet he emerges with, you know, this kind of
excellent record and past. There is some signs of trauma,
military issues, maybe PTSD, but none of these things really
(18:43):
are typical of a serial killer other than his kind
of desire. Very much like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer,
to you know Ridge society of a stain in the community,
sex workers.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Wow at the same time employing sex workers. So we
know a little bit about victim one, but what about
victim two. Claudine Anne Listen.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
At forty two years old. Claudine and Luera has experience
on the street. She's the mother of five and is
very careful with who she deals with on San Bernardo Boulevard.
Like all the girls on the prostitution blocks, the murder
of her friend Melissa Ramirez. The top of mind. Lua
has heard the rumors. So when a guy she knows
pulls over to pick her up, she gets in. She
knows David, the military guy in the white truck. As
(19:32):
they drive down the road, Luera confronts David about the
disappearance of her friend. She was getting out of the
truck when he shoots her in the head. Luia was
found alive, but died hours later in the hospital.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Them the method of operation here rings of an echo,
Cheryl McCollum. Sex workers being lured away from their homes
or where they hang out. Here it was on the
prostitution blocks and taken out in a vehicle, having sex
(20:04):
with the killer, and then they shoot them in the head.
This is like a recurring chorus with serial killers, you know.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Gary Ridgeway said it. He said that he wants to
deal with sex workers because they're not going to be
reported right away, and oftentimes they're not reported missing at all,
so it gives the killer time not just to get away,
but to maybe even go back and cover up and
cover up some more.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I'm thinking about something doctor Peter Vronsky just said about
a let's just say late bloomer serial killer in Canada,
Del Carson with me, high profile defense lawyer and former
fed with the FBI, Dell. The perps may not exhibit
serial killer behavior.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Like ken know.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We say, oh, it's textbook. They tortured animals when they
were little. They tore the off of flies, They did this,
They did that. They have no empathy or sympathy for
others feelings.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
We knew it since he was a kid.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
There are killers that do not exhibit symptoms, and they
are as I just said, for lack of a better term,
late bloomers.
Speaker 7 (21:17):
Well, you know Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer, he.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Was a great from day one.
Speaker 7 (21:23):
He was like a garter snake with cobra venom. And
I can just tell you that you can play with
a snak like that a lot, and then if you
fall into their ritual, their pattern of behavior, then all
of a sudden you're in trouble. And those kids got
in the car because they fell into the pattern of
behavior that he exhibited. And that's two of all these
(21:44):
serial killers. You know, murders are not that unusual in
our world. What is unusual is the motivation in each
of these serial killers deviates from any kind of normal
murder where there's money, sex, you know, all of those
kinds of reasons for killing someone else. They don't necessarily
exist in the serial killers world, and that's what makes
(22:06):
them so dangerous. They look harmless, gentlely, and certainly Wayne
Williams did. He looked arm man.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
He really did his parents and babied him and coddled
him and his whole life since birth, and then out
of the blue we find out he's a serial killer,
and I mean a massive serial killer. Doctor Joni Johnson,
I'm just thinking about something Dell Carson just said. As
(22:33):
far as motive for serial killers, I always think of
them as being like sharks. This is shark mean to
eat everything in its path, including iniate objects. No, it's
an instinct. I don't know that serial killers really have
a motivation.
Speaker 10 (22:49):
Well, I think it's complicated. I mean, obviously serial killers
we think of actually motivated serial killers oftentimes because those
are the ones that get most of the media attention.
But I think there are suri killers too, you know,
espouse certain motives and whether these are motives or rationalizations.
I think, as for example, in this Ortez case, he
has used prostitute, as you pointed out, and then yet
(23:12):
he says part of his motive is rinting the streets
of this quote.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Film after he has sex with them, exactly.
Speaker 10 (23:19):
I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever, so that I
think boils out of your question is is this really
a motive or is this an excuse of rationalization?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
And not that I care about in the motive.
Speaker 7 (23:28):
This is the Carson. I just tell you. You know,
what we've got to begin to do is read the
actions and not the words of these perfect readers. What
they say often has no relevance whatsoever to what's driving
them and what's causing them to behave and are socially
like this.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
You're right, Dell Carson. Of course, stay doesn't have to
prove motive. It's nice to be able to give it
to a jury because they wonder why, but you don't
have to prove that. That's not an element that must
be proven in a court of law. Speaking of the
last two victims we finished off with Claudine and Luerra,
Well that's not the end of it.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
On the night of September fourteenth, Ericapania was picked up
by a man she didn't know in a white truck.
As a working girl, Paya became concerned with some of
the things the man was saying. Pena says the man
talked about Melissa Ramirez, sex worker who was murdered and
her body found on the outskirts of Laredo the previous week.
The man told Penia he was the next to last
person to have sex with Ramirez, and he told her
(24:28):
he was worried investigators would find his DNA on the body.
At thirty one, Erica Pana was old enough to believe
he wasn't kidding and might actually be the person murdering
prostitutes in the area. When they stop at a gas station,
Paya sees a state trooper pumping gas. As the man
points a gun at her, eric Opania makes a run
for her life. She makes it to the trooper in time,
but the man in the white truck flees.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Let's take a listen to her description of that man
in our cut sixteen.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
With Ericapana's description of the man, the make and model
of the truck, authorities were able to identify Border Patrol
Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As authorities mobilized
to look for one David Ortiz. They couldn't find him
after paying his escape for Martes. Officers only knew of
victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they were
chasing after him, they heard about a third body that
(25:15):
had been found, later identified as thirty five year old
Gizelda Elisa Hernandez kN too. Believing Ortiz will return to
the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities
head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You know what's interesting, and I'm going to go back
to another serial killer, Rex Heureman, who's going to face
trial in the Long Island serial killer case. Cheryl McCollum.
I recently interviewed a sex worker who went out to
dinner with Rex Hureman, and she got so freaked out
by him she didn't keep the date. I'm using that ephemistically.
(25:51):
She said that he kept talking about the Long Island
serial killing victims, like how it would be easy for
someone to put them in canvas bags and wear camo
and drag them out into the brush along Gilgo Beach.
He relived it, telling her about it, just like this guy,
(26:12):
the Border patrol agent talking about the other victims to
a potential victim.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
Absolutely, he has got the best job. It is perfect
for a cover to gain intel and also to have
the ability to commit these crimes. Nancy. He can pull
these women over, He can stop and interview or interrogate them.
He can pack them down. He can even quote arrest
them and then let them go and then they have
(26:40):
a need to give him some type of favor. He
can also use them as confidential informants. He was set
up beautifully, and then when he was added to the
task force, then he got information before anybody else would
have it to say, Hey, if my DNA's there, I'm
going to come up with a reason that it was. Yeah,
I had sex with her, that I was not the
(27:01):
last person with her.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, you hear him in all of his excuses.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
Nancy, Peter Brodsky here, good jump in. Yeah. I wanted
to say that it's not unusual in these kinds of
cases with sex worker victims that the perpetrator was acquainted
with the victim, and that might have been a past
customer or had met them, hung out with them in
the doughnuts store when they're working their track. He knows them,
(27:29):
he's almost their friend. And then they end up dead,
maybe even a year later into a relationship. This is
not unusual. They don't necessarily strike the first time in
an unknown victim who's a sex worker. This is part
of that psychopathology.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
That's making a lot of sense and following up on
what we just heard and what Cheryl McCollum was telling us.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Take listen how.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Sneaky and deli as Ortiz is take us an hour
twenty two during.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
The truck, the district Attorney Ellenise said Ortiz knew exactly
what he was doing as he plotted out the killings.
Fellow investigators were trying to hunt down the killer and
called the South Texas Border Intelligence Center asking for help
finding a veteran sex worker, Claudine Luera. She worked Sam
Bernardo and told others she had an idea about who
was behind the killing of Melissa Ramirez. The next day,
(28:21):
Lua was murdered. Alanse asked the jury. Did Ortiz, who
was on duty that day, hear about the call asking
about Luera? Did he hunt her down and kill her
before she got a chance to talk and identify Ortise
or was it a coincidence that she died the next day?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
There is no coincidence in criminal law. She calls in
and says, hey, I think I know who did it.
He can be the recipient of that information. And the
next day she's dead. Well, it's not a mystery anymore.
Listen to this our cut twenty.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Jan David Ortiz confessed to killing the four sex workers
during a lengthy interview with v instigators. Ortiz told the
investigators he had been a customer of most of the women,
but he also expressed disdain for sex workers, referring to
them as trash and so dirty and insisting he wanted
to clean up the streets. He even said quote the
(29:15):
monster would come out unquote as he drove along a
stretch of street in Laredo, franqueted by women. Investigators have
not ruled out the possibility that our teas had additional victims.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh, I believe there will be additional victims uncovered.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Guys, we are going from BTK to a Border Patrol
agent now convinct that as a serial killer to Oregon.
You all remember in women's dead bodies were popping up
in a law enforcement kept saying they're not connected, They're
not connected.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
They are connected.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Listen to this In Oregon, a month after police suggested
the mysterious deaths of six women were not connected, officials
changed their announcement and said they believe at least four
of the killings are connected, Kristin Smith, Bridgiet Webster, Charity Perry,
and Ashley Real. The victims' bodies were all found in
wooded and rural areas between February and May. Nine agencies
(30:30):
took part in the investigation, leading them to a person
of interest, but officials have not announced the name of
the person or how they determine the deaths they're connected.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Guys, is a serial killer stalking Oregon? Joining me of
course our all star panel, but two Doctor Peter Vronsky,
what do you make of it?
Speaker 7 (30:52):
It's entirely possible. But it's becoming more difficult for us
to make these kinds of connections we used to be
because we no longer rely on criminal profiling as the
science we thought it was, and so now geo forensic
profiling is a little bit more reliable. We're seeing too
(31:13):
many gaps in past psychological profiling, which is really a
combination of an art and a science. It depends on
how talented the particular profiler is and so what seems
obvious to many of us in the past is not
as obvious now. And we're focused more on collecting DNA
(31:34):
scientific evidence to link cases, and so we're now hesitant
just because And by the way, we don't profile on
the basis of modus operandi, but on the basis of signature.
And we're you know, we already have established that modus
operandi changes with a serial perpetrator depending on the circumstance,
but the signature remains static. And we're now learning with
(31:58):
years that even the signature can alter. So I understand
why nobody's rushing in to make these connections until they
have the evidence for it. Man say, that's called ritualization.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Go ahead, Del Carson, That's called ritualization.
Speaker 7 (32:15):
And what we see is that in serial killers, over time,
their behavior becomes more internally complex. And that's what I
meant by falling into the pattern. Once you fall into
the pattern, and you're wearing a red dress and you've
got high heels on, you're falling into a pattern. You
don't know you're falling into a pattern, but you do.
(32:36):
And as the the individual who is the perpetrator becomes
more longly involved in the behavior, it just gets internally
more complex and they have to have any number of
factors present in order to get their satisfaction from the event. Yes, exactly.
And the more you incidents you have to analyze, the
(32:56):
more you can focus that. So it's very difficult with
four cases to yet find that, especially if they're in
a short period, to make that clear connection that you
would announce to the public you've got a serial killer
out there.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
What about the fact that the name emerges of Jesse
Calhoun and that the girlfriend of Jesse Calhoun is who
is linked to these four deaths, says he knew at
least two of the victims straight out to Cheryl McCollum,
(33:35):
director of the Cold Case Research Institute and for expert,
the girlfriend in this case, the girlfriend of thirty eight
year old person that is a suspect in four of
these cases, says he knew two of them. Wow, again,
that's quite the coincidence, isn't it, Cheryl?
Speaker 5 (33:53):
Surely is. And you say it all the time, Nancy.
If you want to know about a horse, look at
his track record, run this guy's history and you start
to see there's a faults as far back as two
thousand and three. He assaults again in two thousand and
seven with a kidnapping and then in twenty nineteen the
assault of a police officer. That is sixteen years of
(34:17):
violence against people. So you have to take this guy
into account and his connection with those two bos Well, not.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Only does he have a violent past and he's connected
to the victims. He actually got clemency from the governor
at twenty twenty one, and as soon as he's out
in twenty twenty one, the killings commands Ashley Real, Bridget Webster,
Charity Perry, and Kristin Smith, they're all dead.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Have you looked at them?
Speaker 2 (34:48):
They're physically similar to doctor Kendall Crowns joining me chief
medical Examiner out of Terrant County, Lecturer University Texas Austin
and TCU Medical School, Dodgor Kendall Crowns. We've seen it
over and over and over. I don't know how many
thousands of autopsies you've conducted, but when you're dealing with
(35:08):
a serial killer, I mean Ted Bundy, many of his
victims look so similar. White females, very slight in their
physical characteristics, dark hair parted down the middle. They all
look very similar, as do these women. Have you seen
(35:29):
that in your practice, doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
Occasionally, when dealing with cases of a similar murderer, they
will choose a specific target on a routine basis. Whatever
it is psychologically that drives them seems to a target
a specific one. So you will see with serial killers
multiple victims with similar characteristics killed in a similar manner.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Following up on what Cheryl McCollum just said, take a
listener cut twenty six from Crime Online.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Investigators said the deaths of Kristen Smith, Charity Perry, Bridget Webster,
and actually Real r link together, and sources say a
person of interest is already off the streets. The person
of interest, thirty eight year old Jesse Lee Calhoun, is
currently booked in the Snake River Correctional Institution. The Molnomah
County Sheriff's Office has described Calhoun as a prolific thief
(36:21):
and career criminal. He was serving a sentence on burglary
when he was among the inmates granted clemency by former
Oregon Governor Kate Brown in twenty twenty one. This was
for fighting the twenty twenty wildfires. The clemency shaved about
twelve months off his prison sentence. That sentence was set
to end in July twenty twenty two, and.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Of course the bodies start piling up. But we know
more about his background. Take a listen to thirty.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Jesse Lee Calhoun is experienced in the ways of the
Department of Corrections. In twenty nineteen, Calhoun was charged with
three counts of unauthorized use of a vehicle, one count
of assaulting a public safety officer, one count of first
degree burglary. Givens from the incident show that when SWAT
arrived at Calhoun's house to arrest him on outstanding warrants
in defiance, he choked the CA nine and repeatedly kicked
(37:09):
an officer. His original projected release date was in June
twenty twenty two. However, in twenty twenty one, then Governor
Kate Brown signed a commutation order providing clemency to certain
prisoners who met the criteria. Calhoun was one of those
prisoners and was released on July twenty second, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Clares are now emerging about how poorly Calhoun was actually
monitored by LA law enforcement. One of the women Calhoun
is suspected of murdering actually real actually had filed a
domestic violence complaint against him.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
For guess what strangulation.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
To you, Cheryl McCollum, The same mo we believe was
used in killing the others.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Patterns, patterns, patterns. You cannot ignore them. They won't get
rid of They're going to continue to use what they
get gratification from the way they want to do it.
This is so clear once you start breaking down all
of these elements.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
What about it, Frank fell Zone, Well, what I have learned, Nancy,
is we all, I mean all have a dark side.
Most of us don't want to know about it. And
with these killers, what happens is whether it's drugs, sex,
whatever motivates them to open up their dark side and
(38:32):
start living it out. The human mind was always a
fascination to me, particularly with serial killers. These people get very,
very dark. Their egos are huge. They know they've gotten
away with it once and it becomes a lot easier
this second time, the third time, and now they're playing
(38:53):
a game. Can they get caught again? I'll go back
to Richard Ramiris. He made a deal with the devil,
and the devil was with him. As his savior and
the devil would protect him from law enforcement. It was
an extremely interesting case for more reasons than one. Fascinating
(39:13):
case for a study on serial killers.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Douglas McGregor a joining me geographic profile or you can
find him at the geo profile or what do you
make of this case as it relates to your specialty.
Speaker 8 (39:27):
I think Jesse Calhoun is a strong person of interest
just looking at the where the where the four women
were found. You know, he lives within eighteen miles of
three of them, sixty miles to the other one. Just
statistically speaking, you know, most offenders Gary Ridgeway, Ted Bundy
(39:48):
included in that area, you know, they dispose of bodies,
you know, within thirty miles of their residence. Very few
offenders go past that so unless they are personally connected
to the victim. So it does make a strong argument
for Jesse Calhoun just in the proximity and the distance
from his house. Also, just you know, the bodies is
(40:11):
a common traits, you know, common victimology. They're found in
wooded areas, they founded found along roads. You know, most
bodies are disposed of along roadways. After that, you got
you got wooded areas and uh and water. So there
is a there's a strong argument for for Calhoun, and
as Cheryl mentioned, just his you know, his past record,
(40:34):
his past behaviors. So that's uh, it's it's a it's
a good argument and I think he's a good strong
person of interests at attending.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Well, this guy, jesse Lee Calhoun, is headed to court.
We wait as justice unfalls.
Speaker 9 (40:50):
Good life.
Speaker 7 (40:51):
Frien
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Are there more serial killers walking amongst us? Or are
we just learning about them more often from new victims
in the BTK prosecution. In the last days, shares have
(00:33):
been searching a rural area in Butler County in Kansas
in connection to BTK. Are they onto even more bodies
victims of buying torture kill? Dennis Wraiter the dogcatcher? Then,
is a Border patrol agent actually a serial killer? And
(00:56):
to Oregon where I feel very confident a serial killer
is stalking.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thank you for being with us here on crime stories
and serious XM one eleven. Speaking of Dennis Rader, it
was his idea for the media to call him BTK
buying torture kill, so I call him the Dogcatcher. In
the last days, a new search listened.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information
with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize
the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement,
you might not know what can be released to the public.
So homeowners of property in Butler County, Kansas, say sheriff's
deputies and investigators were on their property for seven hours
looking for evidence related to a missing person's case. They
(01:46):
couldn't remember the name of the person they were looking for,
but they did remember the person was sixteen. Cynthia don
Kenny was sixteen when she vanished. The property owners added
that the Osh County Sheriff's Office came to the property
in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out,
but the property owners saying nothing was found. Alena Burrows
with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSNTV, quote, we have
(02:08):
received information that Dennis Rader has been on this property
at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force
is here to follow up on those leads.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, I'm telling you right now, if BTK Dennish Raider
the Dogcatcher has been strolling around rural Butler County, I
guarantee you it's connected to a case. With me an
all star panel to make sense of what we know
right now. But first to a member along with me
(02:36):
on the BTK Special Task for Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder,
Director Cold Case Research Institute, and host of a new
hit series Zone Seven. Cheryl, I know there's a lot
that you and I cannot discuss being on the task force,
but the homeowners have now come forward and stated the
(03:00):
Osage County and for law enforcement was on their property
looking for evidence as it relates to sixteen.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Year old Cynthia don Kenney. What do you make of it?
Speaker 5 (03:13):
You and I can certainly confirm that. I mean, it
was on TV. And what's important is this information that
came forward from the landowner, the actual homeowner. It was
credible enough that scher Dierden felt like we need to
get out there and do our due diligence to find
out can we connect him with anything from that property,
(03:35):
And that's what we did.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I'll tell you one thing to doctor Peter Vronsky joining
us out of Toronto. You're a forensic historian, author of
multiple best selling books on serial killers, including American serial Killers,
The Epidemic Years and Sons of Cain, Doctor Vronsky, if
(03:58):
Dennis Raider I spotted walking around your rural property, you
better call in the scent dogs FRONTO agree, disagree?
Speaker 6 (04:07):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (04:07):
I agree. It's absolutely possible and plausible. This is what
serial killers often do, and I'm sure there could be
plausibly lots of cases still out there that he kind
of has kept to himself as little tokens of control.
He maybe let go of a few, but there's some
(04:30):
he could be nurturing. And in fact, I'm in the
middle of something like this with a serial killer in
Long Island with cases going back to nineteen sixty eight
to nineteen seventy three, which we closed there last December.
So this is not unusual what is happening, and.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
It's not unusual at all. Now, why would we connect
BTK with sixteen year old Cynthia don Kenney.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Listen?
Speaker 4 (04:57):
The nineteen seventy six unsolved disappearance sixteen year old Cynthia
don Kenny, who was last seen working out a laundromat
and o Saj, Oklahoma, is back in the news. Dennis
Raider BTK confirmed that he was questioned by Oklahoma investigators
about the cold case because of the visits he made
to the area at the time of Kenny's disappearance. Raider,
who confessed in detail to other murders, denies any involvement
(05:20):
in this case. However, Osage County Sheriff Eddie Verdon has
read Raider's journals from cover to cover and believes the
killer left clues. One of Rader's journal entries around the
time of Kenney's disappearance was laundromats were a good place
to watch victims and dream. It was Sheriff Virden's Osage
County Sheriff's office that went out to the site of
the killer's former home and found pantyhose tied in a knot,
(05:43):
something raider would have used to strangle a victim.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It is just too much of a coincidence that he's
talking about.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Finding a murder victim, a female murder victim at a laundrymat,
and then Cynthia Kenny or a victim goes missing or
had been connected to a laundromat. Joining me right now
is Douglas McGregor. You know him well, geographic profiler who
specializes in serial killing and violent crime. You can find
(06:14):
him at the geo Profiler. Douglas McGregor, Thank you for
being with us. How do you think the connection holds
up in a court of law between the Butler County
this rural area search in Kansas to the Oklahoma serial
killing activity.
Speaker 8 (06:33):
The investigators would have to find would have to do
a linkage analysis and see you.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Slow down, slow down, a linkage analysis.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
What yeah, so they'd have to see if there's enough
common factors between the crimes there and the crimes that
he committed in the past, and obviously the laundromat is
is one promising lead. Dennis Raider Traditionally, his crimes that
he's been convicted for, he's a he's a home based
(07:00):
offender or a marauder, so he attacks from his home
and his activity space is surrounded is around his home area,
his residence. But these other crimes, they're outside of that area,
so they would have to find other than geography, they
would have to find other common linkages to link him
(07:22):
to those crimes.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, what about our cut five?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Listen to this members of the panel BTK talking about
might be something left in some old barn.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
As Dennis Raider, the self proclaimed BTK serial killer, is
now the prime suspect in the Cynthia Kinney case, some
old information has become new again, such as the sheriff's
office received an anonymous call shortly after Kinney's disappearance. The
male caller said that she was located in an old barn.
There is no evidence that that lead was ever followed up,
(07:58):
but authorities are now looking at detailed drawings made by
Raider showing young girls tied and bound in barns. There
is also a conversation heard on one of Rader's prison
phone calls this past August. On the call he has
heard to say, quote, there might still be something in
some old barn too.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Frank fell Zone joining us out of California. Former San
Francisco Homicide Inspector, author of San Francisco Homicide Inspector five
Dash Henry Dash seven My inside story of the knight Stalker,
City Hall murders and zebra killings, Chinatown, game wars and
a city under siege.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Wow, you know your stuff? Fell Zone.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Question to you, Frank, when you are hearing this conversation
that Dennis Raider, the dog catching killer, is having. What
people still don't know their calls are being recorded behind bars.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
Well, everything boils down to what your jurisdiction and the
prosecution needs to make a conviction. I always found that
your crime scene tells you a story, and that story
gets you going in the right direction, and then it's
just following the leads and each lead has to be
(09:19):
developed to its fullest. The night Stalker case in the
Bay Area that terrified the state of California. That case
was broke on a bracelet that was taken during one
of the Hot Proud burglaries in the residence of a doctor.
So you never know what little link is going to
break your case. But the serial murderers, the killers that
(09:42):
stalk people, they're out there and they're going to be
out there forever. And it seems like with the media
glorifying these individuals, there's going to be no end to
what's happening in our country.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I got an answer film. Serial killers are going to
keep on killing, whether they're found out or not found out,
whether the publicized or not publicized. But you do speak
the truth, specifically as it relates to Dennis Raider BTK,
because he loves what he believes to be the adulation
of the media. What it really is.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Is discussed.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Time stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Cheryl McCollum.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
The fact that he says behind bars, I know you
can talk about this because it's out there. This is
not part of what we're learning on the task Force.
He says in a phone call on a prison call,
and this is just a couple of months ago. He
says there might still be something in some old barn.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Owned the property in rural Butler County. There were several barns,
so again we had to do our due diligence in
search those and see if there was any connection that
we could make to.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Doctor Kendall Crowns joining me now medical examiner joining us
out of Fort Worth Lecturer University, Texas and TCU Medical School.
Doctor Kendall Crowns, while you're from the same town as BTK,
I hope you don't know each other. But that said,
if a body had been placed or a victim had
(11:24):
been placed in a barn so long ago, searching now,
it's highly unlikely that there would be any DNA evidence
or any evidence left of the victim unless something had
been buried, and he's known for burying trophies. But address
that if you could, doctor Crowns.
Speaker 9 (11:42):
So yes, BPK and I are from the same hometown.
He was actually one of my dad's students at the university,
which Costa University. But if he left the body above ground,
now it's been out for decades, it would be desiccated
or dried up up and there really wouldn't be anything
that you could probably get from it for DNA. Now,
(12:06):
if it was buried, and it was buried deep, it
could have delayed the decomposition process, so there could be
still a tissue remaining muscle, dried muscle, or even bone
marrow that could be extracted from the bones to do
DNA testing from.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Even though sometimes as you well know, Cheryl McCollum, and
I'll throw this to Del Carson, high profile lawyer adjoining
side the Jacksonville jurisdiction but also FORMERPI agent and author
of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find them at del
carsonlaw dot com. Deal thinking back to your days, is
(12:44):
a fed as an agent, Even when you know you're
not going to be able to find something, you still
have to look well.
Speaker 7 (12:50):
Absolutely, and the advantage to a barn is that it's
kept out of the weather. The result is if there
is any processable material left, it's liable to be in
more or less of Christine State compared to being out
in the woods somewhere where it would be affected by
rain and so normal.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And there's the possibility, Cheryl McCollum, we know he high
squirrels things away, he buries them.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Would do you bury something out in one of these barns?
Speaker 5 (13:22):
I don't know, absolutely, I mean he could have buried
a souvenir that he took from a scene. He talks
about that. We know that from serial killers throughout history,
they will take items and they want to secure them
for their own pleasure. So there's no doubt that something
that needs to be explored at every possible scene.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
And there's the issue of pictures tied to another crime scene.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Take a listen our cuts seven in this.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Raider is also considered the prime suspect in the murder
of Shawna Beth Garber. The twenty two year old Garber
was found rape strangled and hogtied in Missouri on December
tecond nineteen ninety, but she was not identified until twenty
twenty one. Until then, she was known as Grace Doe.
When her body was identified, investigators found out that Shauna
Garber went missing from Topeka, Kansas, on November third, nineteen ninety.
(14:13):
Dennis Raider was named a prime suspect in her murder
when photos were found in one of his journals that
directly tie him to the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
To Cheryl McCollum, who is on the BTK Task Force
along with me, this is also information that has not
been kept confidential the photos found in his journal, Why
did those photos tie him to Shauna Garber?
Speaker 5 (14:38):
The photographs again are going to be something that depicts
the location, and he puts himself there, So it's not
something that can be ignored. With the Garber case, he's
one of a few persons of interest that again they've
got to rule him in or rule him out. Can
they put him there on the dates that she went missing?
(15:01):
Is there anything that he has said in the past
that puts him with her or speaks to her? And
keep in mind a lot of these folks study one another.
Even recently with the Long Island serial killer, Dennis Raider
has come out and made statements about that situation. So
it's something he could have been writing about because he
was knowledgeable of it. I don't know that Garber is
(15:24):
one of his victims. I'm not completely bought in on that,
but again you've got to look at it and really
ment or really.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Out well, I'm telling you, and I think that doctor
Joni Johnson will agree. Forensic psychologist Pi, author of Serial
Killers one hundred and one, questions true crime fans ask
there are going to be other BTK victims.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
I have no question about that. Dr Johnson.
Speaker 7 (15:49):
I I agree with you, Nancy.
Speaker 10 (15:51):
I would be absolutely stinned to think that he has
only killed people he's confessed to, because this issue of
power and controlling, being able to play games with people,
and it's so complicated when we talk about sexually motivated
derial killer. So I completely agree with you. Whether the
task forces investigating are included or not, there's no question
he has other victims out there that he has not
(16:11):
confessed to.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And now we turn our attention to what many believe
is another serial killer. Take listen now are cut ten
from crimeonline dot Com.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
The border city of Laredo, Texas, appeared to have a
possible serial killer on the loose. In a period of
twelve days, two sex workers have been picked up from
an area known to locals as the prostitution blocks on
San Bernardo Avenue in Laredo, taken out her remote areas
northwest of the city, and shaw in the head When
a special law enforcement team was put together to hunt
down a possible serial killer kidnapping and murdering sex workers,
(16:44):
David Ortiz, the intelligence supervisor for the Border Patrol, was
asked to join the team.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
David Ortiz asked to join the team. We believe the
first victim may have been Melissa Ramirez.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Take a listen.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
On September fourth, when Melissa Ramirez didn't come home, her mother,
Christina Benevitez, went looking for her daughter on San Bernardo.
She came across forty two year old Claudine Ann Luerra,
one of Melissa Ramire's friends, on the street, and asked
her if she had seen Melissa. Lua hadn't. Ten days later,
on September thirteenth, friends would be looking for Claudine and
(17:20):
Luerra when she didn't come home. Twenty nine year old
Melissa Ramerez was on San Bernardo Boulevard on the prostitution
blocks when she sees a familiar white truck pull over
to talk. She knows the driver is David, a military man, tall, handsome.
They've done this before, so the mother of two gets
in the truck. As they drive down a rural country
road about two miles outside the city, David stops the
(17:42):
car from Melissa to get out and relieve herself. Without warning,
David shoots her in the head multiple times. Her body
is not discovered until the next day.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Doctor Peter Ronsky joining us out of Toronto, Doctor Ronsky,
what do you make of them? The modus operanda in
this particular case.
Speaker 7 (18:02):
This is a very interesting case, and it's almost like
a new species of serial killers who are emerging in
the prime of their career, like that colonel in Canada,
Colonel Russell Williams, who suddenly in his forties is becoming
transforming almost into a serial killer. There's nothing in his
(18:22):
background that would suggest that he is a budding serial killer,
and yet he emerges with, you know, this kind of
excellent record and past. There is some signs of trauma,
military issues, maybe PTSD, but none of these things really
(18:43):
are typical of a serial killer other than his kind
of desire. Very much like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer,
to you know Ridge society of a stain in the community,
sex workers.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Wow at the same time employing sex workers. So we
know a little bit about victim one, but what about
victim two. Claudine Anne Listen.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
At forty two years old. Claudine and Luera has experience
on the street. She's the mother of five and is
very careful with who she deals with on San Bernardo Boulevard.
Like all the girls on the prostitution blocks, the murder
of her friend Melissa Ramirez. The top of mind. Lua
has heard the rumors. So when a guy she knows
pulls over to pick her up, she gets in. She
knows David, the military guy in the white truck. As
(19:32):
they drive down the road, Luera confronts David about the
disappearance of her friend. She was getting out of the
truck when he shoots her in the head. Luia was
found alive, but died hours later in the hospital.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Them the method of operation here rings of an echo,
Cheryl McCollum. Sex workers being lured away from their homes
or where they hang out. Here it was on the
prostitution blocks and taken out in a vehicle, having sex
(20:04):
with the killer, and then they shoot them in the head.
This is like a recurring chorus with serial killers, you know.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Gary Ridgeway said it. He said that he wants to
deal with sex workers because they're not going to be
reported right away, and oftentimes they're not reported missing at all,
so it gives the killer time not just to get away,
but to maybe even go back and cover up and
cover up some more.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I'm thinking about something doctor Peter Vronsky just said about
a let's just say late bloomer serial killer in Canada,
Del Carson with me, high profile defense lawyer and former
fed with the FBI, Dell. The perps may not exhibit
serial killer behavior.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Like ken know.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We say, oh, it's textbook. They tortured animals when they
were little. They tore the off of flies, They did this,
They did that. They have no empathy or sympathy for
others feelings.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
We knew it since he was a kid.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
There are killers that do not exhibit symptoms, and they
are as I just said, for lack of a better term,
late bloomers.
Speaker 7 (21:17):
Well, you know Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer, he.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Was a great from day one.
Speaker 7 (21:23):
He was like a garter snake with cobra venom. And
I can just tell you that you can play with
a snak like that a lot, and then if you
fall into their ritual, their pattern of behavior, then all
of a sudden you're in trouble. And those kids got
in the car because they fell into the pattern of
behavior that he exhibited. And that's two of all these
(21:44):
serial killers. You know, murders are not that unusual in
our world. What is unusual is the motivation in each
of these serial killers deviates from any kind of normal
murder where there's money, sex, you know, all of those
kinds of reasons for killing someone else. They don't necessarily
exist in the serial killers world, and that's what makes
(22:06):
them so dangerous. They look harmless, gentlely, and certainly Wayne
Williams did. He looked arm man.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
He really did his parents and babied him and coddled
him and his whole life since birth, and then out
of the blue we find out he's a serial killer,
and I mean a massive serial killer. Doctor Joni Johnson,
I'm just thinking about something Dell Carson just said. As
(22:33):
far as motive for serial killers, I always think of
them as being like sharks. This is shark mean to
eat everything in its path, including iniate objects. No, it's
an instinct. I don't know that serial killers really have
a motivation.
Speaker 10 (22:49):
Well, I think it's complicated. I mean, obviously serial killers
we think of actually motivated serial killers oftentimes because those
are the ones that get most of the media attention.
But I think there are suri killers too, you know,
espouse certain motives and whether these are motives or rationalizations.
I think, as for example, in this Ortez case, he
has used prostitute, as you pointed out, and then yet
(23:12):
he says part of his motive is rinting the streets
of this quote.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Film after he has sex with them, exactly.
Speaker 10 (23:19):
I mean, it makes no sense whatsoever, so that I
think boils out of your question is is this really
a motive or is this an excuse of rationalization?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
And not that I care about in the motive.
Speaker 7 (23:28):
This is the Carson. I just tell you. You know,
what we've got to begin to do is read the
actions and not the words of these perfect readers. What
they say often has no relevance whatsoever to what's driving
them and what's causing them to behave and are socially
like this.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
You're right, Dell Carson. Of course, stay doesn't have to
prove motive. It's nice to be able to give it
to a jury because they wonder why, but you don't
have to prove that. That's not an element that must
be proven in a court of law. Speaking of the
last two victims we finished off with Claudine and Luerra,
Well that's not the end of it.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
On the night of September fourteenth, Ericapania was picked up
by a man she didn't know in a white truck.
As a working girl, Paya became concerned with some of
the things the man was saying. Pena says the man
talked about Melissa Ramirez, sex worker who was murdered and
her body found on the outskirts of Laredo the previous week.
The man told Penia he was the next to last
person to have sex with Ramirez, and he told her
(24:28):
he was worried investigators would find his DNA on the body.
At thirty one, Erica Pana was old enough to believe
he wasn't kidding and might actually be the person murdering
prostitutes in the area. When they stop at a gas station,
Paya sees a state trooper pumping gas. As the man
points a gun at her, eric Opania makes a run
for her life. She makes it to the trooper in time,
but the man in the white truck flees.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Let's take a listen to her description of that man
in our cut sixteen.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
With Ericapana's description of the man, the make and model
of the truck, authorities were able to identify Border Patrol
Agent one David Ortiz as their suspect. As authorities mobilized
to look for one David Ortiz. They couldn't find him
after paying his escape for Martes. Officers only knew of
victims Melissa Ramirez and Claudine Duerra, but while they were
chasing after him, they heard about a third body that
(25:15):
had been found, later identified as thirty five year old
Gizelda Elisa Hernandez kN too. Believing Ortiz will return to
the home he shares with his wife and children, authorities
head to his home, hoping to avoid an armed confrontation.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You know what's interesting, and I'm going to go back
to another serial killer, Rex Heureman, who's going to face
trial in the Long Island serial killer case. Cheryl McCollum.
I recently interviewed a sex worker who went out to
dinner with Rex Hureman, and she got so freaked out
by him she didn't keep the date. I'm using that ephemistically.
(25:51):
She said that he kept talking about the Long Island
serial killing victims, like how it would be easy for
someone to put them in canvas bags and wear camo
and drag them out into the brush along Gilgo Beach.
He relived it, telling her about it, just like this guy,
(26:12):
the Border patrol agent talking about the other victims to
a potential victim.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
Absolutely, he has got the best job. It is perfect
for a cover to gain intel and also to have
the ability to commit these crimes. Nancy. He can pull
these women over, He can stop and interview or interrogate them.
He can pack them down. He can even quote arrest
them and then let them go and then they have
(26:40):
a need to give him some type of favor. He
can also use them as confidential informants. He was set
up beautifully, and then when he was added to the
task force, then he got information before anybody else would
have it to say, Hey, if my DNA's there, I'm
going to come up with a reason that it was. Yeah,
I had sex with her, that I was not the
(27:01):
last person with her.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, you hear him in all of his excuses.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
Nancy, Peter Brodsky here, good jump in. Yeah. I wanted
to say that it's not unusual in these kinds of
cases with sex worker victims that the perpetrator was acquainted
with the victim, and that might have been a past
customer or had met them, hung out with them in
the doughnuts store when they're working their track. He knows them,
(27:29):
he's almost their friend. And then they end up dead,
maybe even a year later into a relationship. This is
not unusual. They don't necessarily strike the first time in
an unknown victim who's a sex worker. This is part
of that psychopathology.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
That's making a lot of sense and following up on
what we just heard and what Cheryl McCollum was telling us.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Take listen how.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Sneaky and deli as Ortiz is take us an hour
twenty two during.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
The truck, the district Attorney Ellenise said Ortiz knew exactly
what he was doing as he plotted out the killings.
Fellow investigators were trying to hunt down the killer and
called the South Texas Border Intelligence Center asking for help
finding a veteran sex worker, Claudine Luera. She worked Sam
Bernardo and told others she had an idea about who
was behind the killing of Melissa Ramirez. The next day,
(28:21):
Lua was murdered. Alanse asked the jury. Did Ortiz, who
was on duty that day, hear about the call asking
about Luera? Did he hunt her down and kill her
before she got a chance to talk and identify Ortise
or was it a coincidence that she died the next day?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
There is no coincidence in criminal law. She calls in
and says, hey, I think I know who did it.
He can be the recipient of that information. And the
next day she's dead. Well, it's not a mystery anymore.
Listen to this our cut twenty.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Jan David Ortiz confessed to killing the four sex workers
during a lengthy interview with v instigators. Ortiz told the
investigators he had been a customer of most of the women,
but he also expressed disdain for sex workers, referring to
them as trash and so dirty and insisting he wanted
to clean up the streets. He even said quote the
(29:15):
monster would come out unquote as he drove along a
stretch of street in Laredo, franqueted by women. Investigators have
not ruled out the possibility that our teas had additional victims.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh, I believe there will be additional victims uncovered.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Guys, we are going from BTK to a Border Patrol
agent now convinct that as a serial killer to Oregon.
You all remember in women's dead bodies were popping up
in a law enforcement kept saying they're not connected, They're
not connected.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
They are connected.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Listen to this In Oregon, a month after police suggested
the mysterious deaths of six women were not connected, officials
changed their announcement and said they believe at least four
of the killings are connected, Kristin Smith, Bridgiet Webster, Charity Perry,
and Ashley Real. The victims' bodies were all found in
wooded and rural areas between February and May. Nine agencies
(30:30):
took part in the investigation, leading them to a person
of interest, but officials have not announced the name of
the person or how they determine the deaths they're connected.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Guys, is a serial killer stalking Oregon? Joining me of
course our all star panel, but two Doctor Peter Vronsky,
what do you make of it?
Speaker 7 (30:52):
It's entirely possible. But it's becoming more difficult for us
to make these kinds of connections we used to be
because we no longer rely on criminal profiling as the
science we thought it was, and so now geo forensic
profiling is a little bit more reliable. We're seeing too
(31:13):
many gaps in past psychological profiling, which is really a
combination of an art and a science. It depends on
how talented the particular profiler is and so what seems
obvious to many of us in the past is not
as obvious now. And we're focused more on collecting DNA
(31:34):
scientific evidence to link cases, and so we're now hesitant
just because And by the way, we don't profile on
the basis of modus operandi, but on the basis of signature.
And we're you know, we already have established that modus
operandi changes with a serial perpetrator depending on the circumstance,
but the signature remains static. And we're now learning with
(31:58):
years that even the signature can alter. So I understand
why nobody's rushing in to make these connections until they
have the evidence for it. Man say, that's called ritualization.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Go ahead, Del Carson, That's called ritualization.
Speaker 7 (32:15):
And what we see is that in serial killers, over time,
their behavior becomes more internally complex. And that's what I
meant by falling into the pattern. Once you fall into
the pattern, and you're wearing a red dress and you've
got high heels on, you're falling into a pattern. You
don't know you're falling into a pattern, but you do.
(32:36):
And as the the individual who is the perpetrator becomes
more longly involved in the behavior, it just gets internally
more complex and they have to have any number of
factors present in order to get their satisfaction from the event. Yes, exactly.
And the more you incidents you have to analyze, the
(32:56):
more you can focus that. So it's very difficult with
four cases to yet find that, especially if they're in
a short period, to make that clear connection that you
would announce to the public you've got a serial killer
out there.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
What about the fact that the name emerges of Jesse
Calhoun and that the girlfriend of Jesse Calhoun is who
is linked to these four deaths, says he knew at
least two of the victims straight out to Cheryl McCollum,
(33:35):
director of the Cold Case Research Institute and for expert,
the girlfriend in this case, the girlfriend of thirty eight
year old person that is a suspect in four of
these cases, says he knew two of them. Wow, again,
that's quite the coincidence, isn't it, Cheryl?
Speaker 5 (33:53):
Surely is. And you say it all the time, Nancy.
If you want to know about a horse, look at
his track record, run this guy's history and you start
to see there's a faults as far back as two
thousand and three. He assaults again in two thousand and
seven with a kidnapping and then in twenty nineteen the
assault of a police officer. That is sixteen years of
(34:17):
violence against people. So you have to take this guy
into account and his connection with those two bos Well, not.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Only does he have a violent past and he's connected
to the victims. He actually got clemency from the governor
at twenty twenty one, and as soon as he's out
in twenty twenty one, the killings commands Ashley Real, Bridget Webster,
Charity Perry, and Kristin Smith, they're all dead.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Have you looked at them?
Speaker 2 (34:48):
They're physically similar to doctor Kendall Crowns joining me chief
medical Examiner out of Terrant County, Lecturer University Texas Austin
and TCU Medical School, Dodgor Kendall Crowns. We've seen it
over and over and over. I don't know how many
thousands of autopsies you've conducted, but when you're dealing with
(35:08):
a serial killer, I mean Ted Bundy, many of his
victims look so similar. White females, very slight in their
physical characteristics, dark hair parted down the middle. They all
look very similar, as do these women. Have you seen
(35:29):
that in your practice, doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
Occasionally, when dealing with cases of a similar murderer, they
will choose a specific target on a routine basis. Whatever
it is psychologically that drives them seems to a target
a specific one. So you will see with serial killers
multiple victims with similar characteristics killed in a similar manner.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Following up on what Cheryl McCollum just said, take a
listener cut twenty six from Crime Online.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Investigators said the deaths of Kristen Smith, Charity Perry, Bridget Webster,
and actually Real r link together, and sources say a
person of interest is already off the streets. The person
of interest, thirty eight year old Jesse Lee Calhoun, is
currently booked in the Snake River Correctional Institution. The Molnomah
County Sheriff's Office has described Calhoun as a prolific thief
(36:21):
and career criminal. He was serving a sentence on burglary
when he was among the inmates granted clemency by former
Oregon Governor Kate Brown in twenty twenty one. This was
for fighting the twenty twenty wildfires. The clemency shaved about
twelve months off his prison sentence. That sentence was set
to end in July twenty twenty two, and.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Of course the bodies start piling up. But we know
more about his background. Take a listen to thirty.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Jesse Lee Calhoun is experienced in the ways of the
Department of Corrections. In twenty nineteen, Calhoun was charged with
three counts of unauthorized use of a vehicle, one count
of assaulting a public safety officer, one count of first
degree burglary. Givens from the incident show that when SWAT
arrived at Calhoun's house to arrest him on outstanding warrants
in defiance, he choked the CA nine and repeatedly kicked
(37:09):
an officer. His original projected release date was in June
twenty twenty two. However, in twenty twenty one, then Governor
Kate Brown signed a commutation order providing clemency to certain
prisoners who met the criteria. Calhoun was one of those
prisoners and was released on July twenty second, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Clares are now emerging about how poorly Calhoun was actually
monitored by LA law enforcement. One of the women Calhoun
is suspected of murdering actually real actually had filed a
domestic violence complaint against him.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
For guess what strangulation.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
To you, Cheryl McCollum, The same mo we believe was
used in killing the others.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Patterns, patterns, patterns. You cannot ignore them. They won't get
rid of They're going to continue to use what they
get gratification from the way they want to do it.
This is so clear once you start breaking down all
of these elements.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
What about it, Frank fell Zone, Well, what I have learned, Nancy,
is we all, I mean all have a dark side.
Most of us don't want to know about it. And
with these killers, what happens is whether it's drugs, sex,
whatever motivates them to open up their dark side and
(38:32):
start living it out. The human mind was always a
fascination to me, particularly with serial killers. These people get very,
very dark. Their egos are huge. They know they've gotten
away with it once and it becomes a lot easier
this second time, the third time, and now they're playing
(38:53):
a game. Can they get caught again? I'll go back
to Richard Ramiris. He made a deal with the devil,
and the devil was with him. As his savior and
the devil would protect him from law enforcement. It was
an extremely interesting case for more reasons than one. Fascinating
(39:13):
case for a study on serial killers.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Douglas McGregor a joining me geographic profile or you can
find him at the geo profile or what do you
make of this case as it relates to your specialty.
Speaker 8 (39:27):
I think Jesse Calhoun is a strong person of interest
just looking at the where the where the four women
were found. You know, he lives within eighteen miles of
three of them, sixty miles to the other one. Just
statistically speaking, you know, most offenders Gary Ridgeway, Ted Bundy
(39:48):
included in that area, you know, they dispose of bodies,
you know, within thirty miles of their residence. Very few
offenders go past that so unless they are personally connected
to the victim. So it does make a strong argument
for Jesse Calhoun just in the proximity and the distance
from his house. Also, just you know, the bodies is
(40:11):
a common traits, you know, common victimology. They're found in
wooded areas, they founded found along roads. You know, most
bodies are disposed of along roadways. After that, you got
you got wooded areas and uh and water. So there
is a there's a strong argument for for Calhoun, and
as Cheryl mentioned, just his you know, his past record,
(40:34):
his past behaviors. So that's uh, it's it's a it's
a good argument and I think he's a good strong
person of interests at attending.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Well, this guy, jesse Lee Calhoun, is headed to court.
We wait as justice unfalls.
Speaker 9 (40:50):
Good life.
Speaker 7 (40:51):
Frien
Host
Nancy Grace
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