September 21, 2017 • 41 mins
The latest installment in Oxygen's docuseries "The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway" features an interrogation of John Ludwick, the man who claims he helped suspected killer Joran van Der Sloot rebury the Alabama woman's remains after burning and crushing her skull. Investigative reporter Art Harris and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan join Nancy Grace in a discussion of the revelations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
drives four hours from school, crashes, her car, gets out
and vanishes. Everybody has the theory. Was she murdered? Was
it a suicide? Did you run away? Join the search
as an investigative reporter and former US Marshall uncovered new evidence,
(00:20):
interrogate new witnesses, trace down new leeds, and this riveting
new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray and starts Saturday,
September eight, fift pm, seven fifteen Central on Oxygen, the
new network for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on
(00:44):
Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two, two thousand five,
On the Small Island of a Rubot, Natalie Hollowayd was
with friends at a local bar where she was last
seen getting a ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains
a mystery. Her dad says that he in a private
eye found human and remains in We took them remains
and had them remains test it and then just returned
(01:06):
last week. That's her human remains. Will they be able
to be some kind of test ave? That will be
answer once and for all, whether this is Natalie. We're
in the process of doing a DNA test. Dave Holloway
says that a friend of a man who was once
suspected in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that
there's a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm
just trying to wait and see the story of Alabama teen,
(01:30):
the high school beauty and honor student who already has
a scholarship to college goes on and it seems as
if with every twist and turn, the news gets worse
about the missing girl. I cannot even imagine her parents
just before she graduates high school. They're in the Mountain
(01:52):
Brook area of Alabama. She goes on her high school
senior trip. They never see her alive again. Thanks too
in my mind and a Reuben Judge's son your Vander salute.
I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us. The very latest wrinkle is almost too
(02:16):
much to believe. And with me is investigative reporter multiple
winner of Emmy Awards, Art Harris, along with forensic expert
and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University Joe Scott Morgan.
Art Harris, the latest is almost more than I can
(02:37):
even repeat. Tell me what's happening now, aren't Harris? Nancy
the best friend of your vandor slut takes his sources
to a place where he says Natalie's skull and bones
were crushed and burned to get rid of her hair fibers,
(02:57):
doused with gasoline and a fire pit in a cave,
and then after that they pounded the bones to reduce
them to disposable remains. It's almost more than I can
take in with me. Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert, allegations
at the skull of this beautiful girl. Her skull, the
(03:19):
girl who disappeared offer high school senior trip was burned
in a cave in a Ruba. After you're in vander
Salute pays the friend to dig up her remains for
fift hundred dollars. They then go to a cave in
a Ruba and pound her remains, her bones into dust
(03:45):
and try to burn it. Joe Scott, is that possible
to a certain degree? Is it is? Nancy? Thing about
burning bone is that? Uh, It's very difficult to burn.
You have to have intense heat and you have to
burn for a portray acted period. One of the things
they're not taking into account here is what element is
contained within the skull that are not bone and that
(04:08):
are that that's human teeth and so um. From an
evidentry standpoint for us in forensic science, the teeth are
going to be much more valuable than the skull itself.
So you're saying that teeth do not burn. They do burn, Nancy,
but the uh, the amount of heat that it requires
is almost increased by a factor of two when compared
(04:31):
to bone. Okay, Um, bone is very fragile compared to teeth.
So if they can recover teeth in this alleged area
where this occurred, that's going to be Um, it'll be
a monumental piece of ovidends here. Well, they were crushing,
I mean, beating, pounding on decimating her bones. I would
(04:54):
be surprised if they didn't destroy her teeth too. But
I think you're right from an anecdotal point of you,
Joseph Scott more gonna because when I first started covering
the Stephen Avery case with Teresa Halbach, the photographer, and
this you know, became famous, not when I covered it
(05:14):
as a missing person and then a homicide investigation. But
when was it Netflix or HBO didn't making a murder? Oh,
Jackie say Netflix did making a murderer. Um, it became famous.
Then he Stephen Avery sat outside and stirred a fire
pit himself all through the night. We now know burning
(05:38):
Teresa Hallback's remains and what cops could find Joe Scott
were bits of her bones, her teeth, and the studs
off the back of her Daisy fointest blue jeans, So
her teeth survived. I guess you'd have to have a
crematory grade heat in order to to burn teeth. Yeah, yeah,
(06:02):
we we We'd be looking at at a sustained heat
level of in excess of about degrees fare and height.
And that's got to be sustained and so it takes
um you know, even not to get too graphic, but
when you think about ceremonial cre cremations that take place
in certain cultures, Uh, they have to have people that
(06:24):
tend these fires for days and days on end. Now,
if you have access to a crematory, which very very
few people do, um, it would it would facilitate this
a lot quicker. And uh, the the level of heat
is very intense, intense and this very contained area. This
is not what we're talking about. We're talking about going
(06:46):
into a hole in the ground that was big enough
for a couple of people to fit in. And then
they have to have a fuel source. They have to
have It's not just gash, you know, they're talking about
we poured gas on it to get rid of hair
and fiber. Okay, good for you, But did you have
like wood to fire this? Did you have kindling to
sustain it? Did you? Did you think about these things?
(07:07):
And in most of these cases, perpetrators do not think
of all of the little addenda that go along with
these proceeds. What we are learning right now is Art Harris,
investigative reporter, has just revealed apparently the skull of an
Alabama teen girl who vanishes on her high school senior
trip to Aruba. The skull, according to a confidential informant,
(07:34):
was destroyed in the sense that Journed Van der Sloot,
the judge's son, tried to destroy all of Natalie Holloway's
bones by beating and pulverizing them and then tried to
set them on fire. But according to the informant quote,
the only thing that got burned was the skull, got
that to burn and the hair fibers. It was dousked
(08:00):
in gasoline in a fire pit in a cave. The
only thing that got burned was the skull to burn
the hair fibers. Those are his words, not mine. What
does that mean, aren't Harris? Is he saying that the
skull didn't burn just the hair? What is he trying
to say? Yeah, there was a hair and skin apparently
(08:21):
that was burned doubts with gasoline. As you mentioned, Nancy,
this is what the informant is saying. Uh in your
En and m did together. But it means that there
are still some bones left over. They were able to
get enough bone fragments to do this DNA testing that
is ongoing and as yet to be revealed. What we
(08:43):
need to hold on just a moment. I want you
to hear this. Take a listen to former APD Atlanta
Police Department officer T. J. Ward as he is interrogating
the informant. As the informant describes trying to destroy now
Elie's bones. Listen, where did you take it? Where do
(09:04):
you take a remas? Do not want to be so
your rats cross. We originally was he had discussed beting
a cremated, but at that time it wasn't legal. But
apparently some paces we do it for pets. And what
did you do? The idea was to crush everything to
the point where it's not recognized for was arm, bones
(09:27):
or skull or anything like that? Did you do someone
with remain before you broke from up? Or did did
you do something remain after you broke from up? Did
you bone them? The only thing I've got barn was
the the skull. To learn the hill fighters, it was
doused in gastonine and fire. Opinion cave to Joe's got Morgan, Joe,
(09:49):
let me ask you this. When they're saying the only
thing that burned was her hair, that meant that that
means they had to pulverize the bones. Is that possible
manually to pulverize the bones to a point that you
can no longer extract DNA? I find that hard to believe. Uh,
(10:10):
with the with the means that they would have at
their hand, Uh, it wouldn't be possible to completely pulverize
the bone. Now, I think the question is how degraded
the sample would be that they could get out of
the burned bone. Would it compromise it to the point
where where they where the scientists still couldn't extract DNA
(10:32):
from that bone. That again, UH circles back to the
idea of the teeth. If those teeth are intact, Uh,
would it be possible to go into the tooth and
go into the layer what's referred to as the pulp,
which is one of the elements of the teeth, and
extract the DNA from there. And I think that that's
going to be the key in this case. Um, the
(10:54):
density of the bone that you have, say, for instance,
in the skull, is not the same as we have
like in a long bone, like in the femur or
the humorous where you have this this um high concentration
of what we referred to as compact bone. That's that's
where we actually get this partial DNA from that we
create the strand with UM and look for the markers
(11:16):
that we have to look for. So UM again, I
think that it would be really difficult and incrematories. The
public doesn't know this. Most of the time, after a
body is burned, Okay, after the body is cremated, it
goes down. Uh. It actually travels along a track conveyor belt,
if you will, and it goes through a crusher at
(11:36):
the end um that's a large spinning wheel, and it
crushes the bone, pulpifies it down to a point where
it turns into almost particulate dust. It has the consistency.
It's not quite as fine as talk, but you can
look at it and say more than likely, it's consistent
with very coarse sand. Okay, once again, our heart go
(12:00):
out to the family of Natalie Holloway as more words
from the despicable You're in Vandor Slute emerge, their wounds
being reopened like salt in the wounds about claims now
from a confidential informant, a friend of your in vander Salute, that,
(12:24):
following her horrific murder far away from her family on
a high school senior trip in a Ruba, she is
then buried, dug up, and her bones her remains taken
to some obscure cave in Ruba where You're in Vanderslute
(12:47):
diabolically tries to crush and destroy her bones, tries to
burn them so she can never be recognized. That's what
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as I was thanking our partner, aren't Harris says, there's
(14:14):
a twist. Okay, what's the twist? Mancy? The bones were
not They were not able to crush them totally and
get rid of them. So the the investigators T J.
Ward and the informant were able to provide a couple
of small pieces that were not crushed to be analyzed,
(14:35):
and they've been turned over to a top DNA analysts.
Who's you running them in the lad as we speak?
And the results have yet to be determined. Let's talk
about how they got those uh tiny bits of bone?
How did that happen? Aren't Harris with me Emmy Award
winning Reporter art. How did they manage after all this
(14:59):
time time to locate basically a little more than talcolm dust?
How did they get it after all this time? Well,
this source has has revealed the spot where he and
you're in buried the bones after they crushed what they
could and be quickly could into into small pieces in
(15:23):
a burlap bag that was wrapped in a tarp. That
tarp came from Paulice, uh, the father's house, And suddenly
they dig this up and they were able to find
enough remains there so that it was not just dust
that they they turned over. But they aren't. Can you
(15:45):
back up a moment. Everybody's been talking about the fact
that they crushed her remains and tried to burn them.
Now hold on, say that a little bit more slowly
for me. Aren't you're saying that after this cave incident
where the judge's son, yourn vander Slut tries to Actually
he pays somebody fifteen under bucks to go dig up
(16:05):
Natalie's body. They bring it to a cave where he
tries to crush there. I assume there was no soft
tissue left. She was skeletonized, so they try to pulverize
the bones and burn them. Now, what happened to the remains?
Then say that again for me slowly, Nancy. They were
(16:26):
not able to destroy them totally, and the informant was
able to identify a spot where enough bone was recovered
to be analyzed. The question is how well it was analyzed.
Art Harris Justice got Morgan and Alan Duke take a listen.
I want you to hear Dave Holloway. This is Natalie's
(16:48):
dad talking about having handed their findings over to a
Ruben police. Now, I would not trust a Reuben police
as far as I can throw them, you know, because
they protect this judge's son from the get go. And
police actually called back and claim they're going to the
suspected location. This is leading up to the excavation of
(17:13):
the remains of Natalie Holloway. Listen. So how field day.
I thought it was a very good meeting, and I
think they were excited and we're all kind of excited
that um you know this, Um Mike go down, and
I mean he was real receptive, and I mean I
felt real good about it. The balls in their court
and we we shared with them for three hours this
(17:36):
morning and turned turned that notebook over to them. Plus
all what we've did since we've been here, and we
have handed not only the informant but the parties involved
for them on a silver platterer and hopes that law
enforcement will take action and move quickly with a lot
of credible evidence. Yeah, it up, that's what you know.
(18:01):
Can I can we meet you there? Okay, I'm gonna
take about maybe in half an hour, all right, Why
don't we meet you there at five at the Big
White House. It's right there in that coverside. All right.
We have a special team here so we can have
them search devote area. We'll see you know, about forty
(18:22):
five minutes. All right, Okay, all right, thank you sir.
This might be it then. I mean, if Faith can
come in and start excavating, we'll see. Aren't the burrow
at bag in the tarp? That's what I want to
hear about. Where was that? And how did we find
out about it the leftover remains Nancy were buried by
this informant best friend of your hands, and he describes
(18:45):
this in an undercover sting with t J. Ward and
his best friend we see on the Auxten Special leads
them to a spot and they turned that information over
to the police. The police actually sinned, as you've said,
their own crime scene investigators to excavate the site and
recover enough bones from from the site to be analyzed
(19:10):
by this DNA expert back in the state. So do
you understand what he's saying, Joe Scott Morgan That they
actually go to Paul's manor Sluts home and they find
the remains in a tarp in a burlapp bag. Is
that what you said? Are they he led them to
where they had left the remains that were not uh,
(19:32):
you know, in the pit or in the spot where
they were initially buried. Where they at Paul's's house. We
find out that the informant admits to lying about certain
things along the way. Finally he tells them that they
are hidden in police's house and they go and find
part of the remains from the burlap bag at that place. Well,
(19:55):
this is what I don't get Joe Scott Morgan helped
me out on this. The mom, I guess is still
living there. I mean Vanderslout gave his dad, the judge,
Paul's Vanderslut, a heart attack. He dropped dead, I think,
on a tennis court in the midst of all this.
So how do they not know there's some a dead
girl's bones in the house. I have no idea. I'm
(20:16):
I'm shocked as anybody by this. Uh. As a matter
of fact, UH, from a scientific standpoint, I'd be far
more interested at this point, uh in these remains that
they have allegedly found at the house. Because let's keep
in mind, if they are in a protected area, they
will not have been exposed to to this harsh environment
(20:37):
out there. They won't have been buried. I don't know
where they found them, they're saying they found them, and
I don't know what condition they're in. But what we
could do is have those bones examined and find out
who they belonged to, at least get get some kind
of of racial profiling of the of the remainders. And
a minute, we we already have some indication of it.
(20:59):
But what I'm trying to say, Alan, maybe I'm not
being clear, Okay, Alan, Duke, They've gotten remains from somewhere, Alan,
Because there is a renowned doctor on the case called Kowski,
who worked ground zero at nine one one and started
a forensics arm, a lab of sorts at a college
(21:24):
in New York. He is no idiot, okay, And he
says these remains are of a girl, a lady of
Eastern European descent. So, um, Joe's got Morgan. I've been
told that it's going to take a long time, several
weeks before we've got the answer because from these destroyed remains,
(21:49):
he's got to extract DNA. Does that make sense to you? No,
it doesn't. Why because it doesn't take that long to
examine bone for DNA. What if it's ground up bone
and you have to extract the DNA from it, still
not going to take that interesting. This has been This
has been repeated over and over and over again. It
(22:11):
does not take this long to test bone. And plus
he's already stated that he has identified these bones as
being of European extraction, he already has the information beyond that.
You don't stop at that point and then say, well
it's going to take a little while for us to
(22:32):
go forward from here. It doesn't take I have no
reason to doubt Kolkowski. Um, take a listen to this, Nancy.
Let's listen to as part of your interview recently with Gabriel,
the informant, the one who made it all happen, who
led t. J. Ward and Dave Holloway to Aruba and
to this source who eventually led them to the grave
(22:53):
that is now believed to have been Natalie Holloway's. To Gabriel,
who's at the central of all this. Gabriel, what bones
do you believe that they are examining? Because it's been
made very clear US expert is looking at bones brought
in from Aruba. So if something was cremated, what is
there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um, he
(23:17):
said many stories as we were we were doing the
the the investigation. And uh, I cannot say, because there's
a twist to all this. It could be true, it
could be a lie, but there's a twist to everything,
so I can't really. I have to keep you guys
in this question. To you, Gabriel, from what you learned
(23:40):
through John, what have you learned about who is your
vander Slute. What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's
a social path, He's a popolos, a liar. He basically
thinks about himself and if he could be on TV
and be in the spotlight, that's what he wants. What
I have learned from from John. How do you think
(24:02):
he is holding up now? Is he's still in connection
in contact with John because he's in Peru now Vandersluce
in Peru. As far as side, No, no, John has not.
He said the last time that John wrote him a
letter was back in two let's see two, and has
(24:26):
not written to him since then, because I guess they
were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that
your Vanderslute's father, Paul Is Vanderslute, the judge he was
now dead, was covering up for his son. Oh definitely.
There is something else that does that. Not even a
documentary people have of material that how it came to be,
(24:51):
where Natalie was placed to her place to rest for
the very first time? Where was she at? And they
don't even have the material. I try to tell him,
but they don't listen to me. Well, where where was it?
I cannot say it right now due to my lawyer.
I can't. I can't disclose that right now. I understand,
I understand, But this way, I'm just gonna give you
a little hint. Paula's had a best friend in Holland
(25:15):
that had they had a property. Paula's knew it very well,
that property, very very well. And that's all I can
tell you for now. What was it like to be
working undercover trying to crack this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly,
(25:35):
Nancy Um, I'm not you know, I'm not a cop,
I'm not an investigator, and none of this God gave
me the will and it was very, very frustrating. It's like, uh,
handling a five year old childhood tantrums day by day.
It was very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has
(25:58):
I mean, if you were locked in with him, you
were finally strangling because there's no way. And I had
to take all that crap. I had to grow thick
skin in order to get the information I needed to
solve this. How long did it take you, Gabriel Um?
Approximately almost five years mm hmm, because I started in
(26:20):
slow to get in him. Once I was in, and
at the end I pushed hard, and I got what
I wanted. I was almost there, almost there when everybody
gave up but me, and I said, no, no, I'm
not gonna let this go. I know he's there and
I know, and something remarkable happened, and there the second
(26:43):
week of April, and I went back when everybody gave up,
I went back and it was exactly the spot where
I kind of had a general idea and everybody was
blown the way. The one that was blown away the most,
which he had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember
calling him and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes,
(27:03):
you gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells
me called Chief Vichinson. So I did, gives me the number.
I called him, and I said, I want to meet you.
I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But
when I met him, he goes, you want to know something.
I go what. He goes teaching work, called me to
put you in jail. I go for what he goes
(27:24):
for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not
gonna do that. Can you take me where you where
you found remains? I go yes, So we go back there.
They check the area out and then they leave and
I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you
one thing. When we were outside the hotel when they
seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people,
(27:46):
They're like, he virts, asks him is this human? And
they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There
was a piece of a skull and other pieces which
I don't want to say. According to day Ave Holloway
and the US medical doctor expert, human remains were found
(28:08):
and the doctor is analyzing them and extracting DNA from them.
They are human remains belonging to a female. So, Gabriel,
how does it work? How could there be bones and
this cremation story? Well, Nancy, it's very simple. If you
(28:29):
cream me something, you're not gonna have bones. So the
other option is it never got created. That is simple answer,
but it's part of the documentary. I cannot says. It's
a big twist. I hear you. I mean they That's
what I was just saying, and you said it very succinctly.
They can't both be true. Someone may have been mixed
(28:51):
with a dog at a crematory. Bones may have been
taken and moved but they can't be the same thing. Now,
are you have a bombshell? What have you learned from
your sources? Aren't Harris? And I think what I'm learning
is that initial tests were inconclusive because the tests came
(29:13):
from a mixture of the bones that were pulverized, and
to do a better test you need to test individual bones.
And actually they're doing that now, Nancy. So they're running
more tests on more bones that I have learned from
a source. So are you saying that there are bones
in two locations? Is that what you're saying is that
(29:37):
the bombshell their bones in two locations. What I'm saying,
math is that they had a certain amount of bones
to test. Some were crushed and tested together. They have
a couple of remaining pieces they're now testing individually to
see if they can get a more definitive DNA match
(29:57):
to be able to say this is Natalie. Is they
have narrowed it to a woman of Eastern European descent
in that age category, and now they're trying to zero
in to give the father the closures. They have more
bones to test. They tested initially bones that were mixed
together that didn't necessarily give a definitive answer that would
(30:21):
conform to what Joe Scott Morgan is saying that they
had enough time. They did, but they didn't have the
best samples to declare that what they are finding or
would find is a bona fide and respected result. Natalie
Holloway was on her high school trip in Aruba when
she went missing, and it was five years to the
(30:44):
day that another young woman was murdered by yourn vander Salute,
Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He is now behind bars in Peru
on that murder. But the reality is that being behind
bars has been a cake walk for yourn Vanderslute. He
has gotten ahold of alcohol, reported drugs, and even fathered
(31:07):
a baby from behind prison walls. So with that in mind,
Joseph Scott Morgan, if this pans out to be true,
would he be returned to a Ruba for prosecution if
the a Reuben authorities have the will to move forward.
(31:30):
My thought is is that, uh, if this is going
to be this crucial piece of evidence could potentially be
used as legal leverage by our US State Department to
compel the Auruban authorities to get off of their Reari
ends and do something about this case, which to this
point the kind of failed to do. We know that
(31:53):
the informant Ludwick previously said Vanderslout paid in fift bucks
to pick up, not dig up. Now they's remains near
a residential property in Aruba. Okay, that's got to be
the police vander Salute home or a friend of police
(32:13):
vander Salutes. Alan Duke. I was also told that the
remains were buried on the property of a friend of
Paulice vander Slutz. Now that is inconsistent with finding the
remains in vander slutz family home. What do we know?
I think the problem is that there are sources that
cannot be revealed. Now there's some confidential outlets come out
(32:36):
Nancy that the remains were found near his house at
a relatives property. And they are testing, you know, now
a new samples because the first ones came back undetermined,
(32:57):
and they know they have confidence that they're going to
get a good result from individual pieces of bone that
they did not test that way initially. You know, when
you hear that Joe Scott Morgan that they're now going
on that's a huge bombshell that they're going on to
another test that the first one was indeterminate because now
(33:20):
they have more of a bone. Is that putting the
puzzle together for you, Joe Scott? Yeah, it kind of
brings it into into clear focus. And just let me
expand on this just a little bit. When you've got
this pulpified bone that has been crushed, albeit probably at
a very rudimentary level, it's still going to be what
(33:41):
we refer to in forensics as being a commingled sample.
That means that you know, we talked about dog bones
and all this other stuff. If they are commingled with
these other remains, that's gonna be problematic if the thing
is pulpified and commingled. If you think about a bone
as an individual little case that's carrying sensitive information, like
(34:03):
a briefcase, for instance, and that briefcase has not been
broken open, all right, it's still got the sensitive information
in it. That is going to be a much that's
gonna have a higher likelihood of containing viable DNA sample
as opposed to something that has been put under pressure
and crushed. So yeah, I'm gonna be really interested if
they are in fact running a second test. Another thing
(34:27):
that we have to consider here from a legal standpoint
is the provenance of the evidence. Where did this come from?
Are we talking about a couple of different sites here?
Are we talking about somebody that that's some creep that's
holding on too remains of some deceased person, uh and
they're storing them back. Or here's a big one. There
(34:47):
are other missing people in a Ruba, Nancy. It is
not just poor Natalie, it's other people that are missing
down there. So this is gonna be key to not
just this case, but to other case. There there's a
lot there, There's a lot of weight to bear here.
I think that a big reveal is in the future
and that's that's what we're waiting to see. Listen to
(35:09):
this from the Oxygen series on Natalie Holloway. Earlier we
heard part of t J Ward's interrogation of John, but
now let's listen to more of this. This is what
you'll hear towards the end of episode five of the
disappearance of Natalie Holloway on Oxygen. Tell me what you
know or what he told you about Mount halliway, the
(35:30):
first night he ever opened up about it, about the
May thirtieth night was we were at my house, my
night in the Lifetime movie came on, so we last year,
and throughout the movie there they're doing different things and stuff,
and he started telling me like, you know, that's not true,
like that he was picking movie apart. Tommy, Yeah, that's true.
That's bogan is that's true, that's bogus. So that's how
(35:51):
we started talking to me. Eventually, after the movie ended
that night, he started talking about it and said, you know, John,
I want you to know that bad things happen to
good people. Accidents happened. Where did he takenamily got night?
I'm not sure he acted rates her, but I know
that he said I had help and it wasn't It
(36:12):
wasn't beat back in Cities. Who helped him? He never
said Polis his name, but him tied it was his father.
So after something happened to her on the beach, he
called Paulas. Yes, and then what happened, I guess Paulas
came and helped him figure out how to get rid
of evidence. Where did they detect the body after they
got her off the beach? He's dad. He got everything disposal,
(36:37):
I mean before sunrise that they where there's a cold
there's a quotas act there that on the top of
the hill, that it's desert dated cactuses and thornful ships
and nobody goes up there. At what point in time
did he ask you and tell you about doing someone
(36:57):
remaining noting all the way? Now, what does he want
you to do? Well? He knew I was heavily hooked
on heroin at the time, and I didn't have the
resources to keep it up daily. So he was saying,
I'll give you for your help. Did he in fact
give you fift yes? Okay? Did you go by yourself
(37:20):
under his instruction? Did he go with you? No? Because
he smell I want you to think about that. Did
he go with you the dig a remains up? Yes?
Did he go with you? Up? With you? All? Right?
So y'all went out there and about for nights, okay?
(37:45):
And what happened? The burlap sack was wrapped in a
la tart, so it was kind of like keeping stuff
from seeking out. Basically, did you open it up? Did
you look at it? Okay? What'd you say? It? Very nasty?
Look through my blackish strown dried matter. How do you feel,
(38:08):
I'm sure? How did you feel when you saw I
almost threw up? Right? Away just from the the gas
from over till throw dick or do you take a
remin do you not go? Believe to your rants crops?
We originally he had discussed getting a cremated, but at
(38:29):
that time it wasn't legal, but apparently some places we'd
do it for pets. And what did you do? The
idea was to crush everything to the point where it's
not recognizable as arm bones or skull or anything like that.
Did you do someone to remain before you broke from up?
Or did did you do something remain after you broke
(38:49):
from up? Did you burn him? The only thing that
got burnt with the the skull to learn the hair fighters,
there's doused and gas mean and fire being kept. It's
about fifty yards to the right of Hits from VI
in the desert. You are hearing sound from Oxygen's special
(39:14):
documentary series on the Search for Natalie Holloway that starts
with her dad Dave Holloway, along with a P. D. T. J. Ward,
now private investigator, trying to follow leads and find his daughter.
That leads me to our question as to whether you're
vander Slute will ever be extradited to the U. S art.
(39:39):
What do you make of it? Will he be extradited here? Fancy?
The FBI has been reluctant to to trust this very
questionable friend of vander Sluts as a witness to get
any to get the killer extradited to the States alleged killer,
because they need evidence to be able to convict in
so far, all they've got against him is shaking down
(40:05):
shaking down Natalie's mother for twenty dollars. That is not
enough to get an extradge of the States. If they
can get enough solid evidence from the site and Reuben
authorities will invite the FBI in for a joint investigation.
Big if they could possibly develop extradition material to get
(40:26):
him sent to the States to be tried for murder.
But they had there are a lot of a lot
of things to jump over before that. How does how
do you get him here for murder because it happened
in Araba? Well, the FBI has jurisdiction over Americans killed
abroad and if they can develop a case jointly with
(40:48):
the Rubens could be tried in the States as well.
This must be a nightmare for her parents. It's like
it will never end. Never too, aren't Harris Emmy Award
winning investigative reporter and Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator forensics
(41:08):
professor at Jacksonville State University. We're on the case. Thank you,
Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend. Do you
find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there
(41:29):
was a group of people just like you to talk
motives and alibis with. If so, joined the Crime Con
Cold Case Club and work alongside experts and fellow crime
sleuths to help uncover new leads and theories in the
cold cases. They adopt. Their first cold case focuses on
the mysterious disappearance of nursing student Maura Murray in two
thousand four, and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen.
Sign up now or find more info at Club dot
(41:52):
crime con dot com. That's club dot crime con dot com.
February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
drives four hours from school, crashes, her car, gets out
and vanishes. Everybody has the theory. Was she murdered? Was
it a suicide? Did you run away? Join the search
as an investigative reporter and former US Marshall uncovered new evidence,
(00:20):
interrogate new witnesses, trace down new leeds, and this riveting
new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray and starts Saturday,
September eight, fift pm, seven fifteen Central on Oxygen, the
new network for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on
(00:44):
Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two, two thousand five,
On the Small Island of a Rubot, Natalie Hollowayd was
with friends at a local bar where she was last
seen getting a ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains
a mystery. Her dad says that he in a private
eye found human and remains in We took them remains
and had them remains test it and then just returned
(01:06):
last week. That's her human remains. Will they be able
to be some kind of test ave? That will be
answer once and for all, whether this is Natalie. We're
in the process of doing a DNA test. Dave Holloway
says that a friend of a man who was once
suspected in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that
there's a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm
just trying to wait and see the story of Alabama teen,
(01:30):
the high school beauty and honor student who already has
a scholarship to college goes on and it seems as
if with every twist and turn, the news gets worse
about the missing girl. I cannot even imagine her parents
just before she graduates high school. They're in the Mountain
(01:52):
Brook area of Alabama. She goes on her high school
senior trip. They never see her alive again. Thanks too
in my mind and a Reuben Judge's son your Vander salute.
I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us. The very latest wrinkle is almost too
(02:16):
much to believe. And with me is investigative reporter multiple
winner of Emmy Awards, Art Harris, along with forensic expert
and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University Joe Scott Morgan.
Art Harris, the latest is almost more than I can
(02:37):
even repeat. Tell me what's happening now, aren't Harris? Nancy
the best friend of your vandor slut takes his sources
to a place where he says Natalie's skull and bones
were crushed and burned to get rid of her hair fibers,
(02:57):
doused with gasoline and a fire pit in a cave,
and then after that they pounded the bones to reduce
them to disposable remains. It's almost more than I can
take in with me. Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert, allegations
at the skull of this beautiful girl. Her skull, the
(03:19):
girl who disappeared offer high school senior trip was burned
in a cave in a Ruba. After you're in vander
Salute pays the friend to dig up her remains for
fift hundred dollars. They then go to a cave in
a Ruba and pound her remains, her bones into dust
(03:45):
and try to burn it. Joe Scott, is that possible
to a certain degree? Is it is? Nancy? Thing about
burning bone is that? Uh, It's very difficult to burn.
You have to have intense heat and you have to
burn for a portray acted period. One of the things
they're not taking into account here is what element is
contained within the skull that are not bone and that
(04:08):
are that that's human teeth and so um. From an
evidentry standpoint for us in forensic science, the teeth are
going to be much more valuable than the skull itself.
So you're saying that teeth do not burn. They do burn, Nancy,
but the uh, the amount of heat that it requires
is almost increased by a factor of two when compared
(04:31):
to bone. Okay, Um, bone is very fragile compared to teeth.
So if they can recover teeth in this alleged area
where this occurred, that's going to be Um, it'll be
a monumental piece of ovidends here. Well, they were crushing,
I mean, beating, pounding on decimating her bones. I would
(04:54):
be surprised if they didn't destroy her teeth too. But
I think you're right from an anecdotal point of you,
Joseph Scott more gonna because when I first started covering
the Stephen Avery case with Teresa Halbach, the photographer, and
this you know, became famous, not when I covered it
(05:14):
as a missing person and then a homicide investigation. But
when was it Netflix or HBO didn't making a murder? Oh,
Jackie say Netflix did making a murderer. Um, it became famous.
Then he Stephen Avery sat outside and stirred a fire
pit himself all through the night. We now know burning
(05:38):
Teresa Hallback's remains and what cops could find Joe Scott
were bits of her bones, her teeth, and the studs
off the back of her Daisy fointest blue jeans, So
her teeth survived. I guess you'd have to have a
crematory grade heat in order to to burn teeth. Yeah, yeah,
(06:02):
we we We'd be looking at at a sustained heat
level of in excess of about degrees fare and height.
And that's got to be sustained and so it takes
um you know, even not to get too graphic, but
when you think about ceremonial cre cremations that take place
in certain cultures, Uh, they have to have people that
(06:24):
tend these fires for days and days on end. Now,
if you have access to a crematory, which very very
few people do, um, it would it would facilitate this
a lot quicker. And uh, the the level of heat
is very intense, intense and this very contained area. This
is not what we're talking about. We're talking about going
(06:46):
into a hole in the ground that was big enough
for a couple of people to fit in. And then
they have to have a fuel source. They have to
have It's not just gash, you know, they're talking about
we poured gas on it to get rid of hair
and fiber. Okay, good for you, But did you have
like wood to fire this? Did you have kindling to
sustain it? Did you? Did you think about these things?
(07:07):
And in most of these cases, perpetrators do not think
of all of the little addenda that go along with
these proceeds. What we are learning right now is Art Harris,
investigative reporter, has just revealed apparently the skull of an
Alabama teen girl who vanishes on her high school senior
trip to Aruba. The skull, according to a confidential informant,
(07:34):
was destroyed in the sense that Journed Van der Sloot,
the judge's son, tried to destroy all of Natalie Holloway's
bones by beating and pulverizing them and then tried to
set them on fire. But according to the informant quote,
the only thing that got burned was the skull, got
that to burn and the hair fibers. It was dousked
(08:00):
in gasoline in a fire pit in a cave. The
only thing that got burned was the skull to burn
the hair fibers. Those are his words, not mine. What
does that mean, aren't Harris? Is he saying that the
skull didn't burn just the hair? What is he trying
to say? Yeah, there was a hair and skin apparently
(08:21):
that was burned doubts with gasoline. As you mentioned, Nancy,
this is what the informant is saying. Uh in your
En and m did together. But it means that there
are still some bones left over. They were able to
get enough bone fragments to do this DNA testing that
is ongoing and as yet to be revealed. What we
(08:43):
need to hold on just a moment. I want you
to hear this. Take a listen to former APD Atlanta
Police Department officer T. J. Ward as he is interrogating
the informant. As the informant describes trying to destroy now
Elie's bones. Listen, where did you take it? Where do
(09:04):
you take a remas? Do not want to be so
your rats cross. We originally was he had discussed beting
a cremated, but at that time it wasn't legal. But
apparently some paces we do it for pets. And what
did you do? The idea was to crush everything to
the point where it's not recognized for was arm, bones
(09:27):
or skull or anything like that? Did you do someone
with remain before you broke from up? Or did did
you do something remain after you broke from up? Did
you bone them? The only thing I've got barn was
the the skull. To learn the hill fighters, it was
doused in gastonine and fire. Opinion cave to Joe's got Morgan, Joe,
(09:49):
let me ask you this. When they're saying the only
thing that burned was her hair, that meant that that
means they had to pulverize the bones. Is that possible
manually to pulverize the bones to a point that you
can no longer extract DNA? I find that hard to believe. Uh,
(10:10):
with the with the means that they would have at
their hand, Uh, it wouldn't be possible to completely pulverize
the bone. Now, I think the question is how degraded
the sample would be that they could get out of
the burned bone. Would it compromise it to the point
where where they where the scientists still couldn't extract DNA
(10:32):
from that bone. That again, UH circles back to the
idea of the teeth. If those teeth are intact, Uh,
would it be possible to go into the tooth and
go into the layer what's referred to as the pulp,
which is one of the elements of the teeth, and
extract the DNA from there. And I think that that's
going to be the key in this case. Um, the
(10:54):
density of the bone that you have, say, for instance,
in the skull, is not the same as we have
like in a long bone, like in the femur or
the humorous where you have this this um high concentration
of what we referred to as compact bone. That's that's
where we actually get this partial DNA from that we
create the strand with UM and look for the markers
(11:16):
that we have to look for. So UM again, I
think that it would be really difficult and incrematories. The
public doesn't know this. Most of the time, after a
body is burned, Okay, after the body is cremated, it
goes down. Uh. It actually travels along a track conveyor belt,
if you will, and it goes through a crusher at
(11:36):
the end um that's a large spinning wheel, and it
crushes the bone, pulpifies it down to a point where
it turns into almost particulate dust. It has the consistency.
It's not quite as fine as talk, but you can
look at it and say more than likely, it's consistent
with very coarse sand. Okay, once again, our heart go
(12:00):
out to the family of Natalie Holloway as more words
from the despicable You're in Vandor Slute emerge, their wounds
being reopened like salt in the wounds about claims now
from a confidential informant, a friend of your in vander Salute, that,
(12:24):
following her horrific murder far away from her family on
a high school senior trip in a Ruba, she is
then buried, dug up, and her bones her remains taken
to some obscure cave in Ruba where You're in Vanderslute
(12:47):
diabolically tries to crush and destroy her bones, tries to
burn them so she can never be recognized. That's what
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as I was thanking our partner, aren't Harris says, there's
(14:14):
a twist. Okay, what's the twist? Mancy? The bones were
not They were not able to crush them totally and
get rid of them. So the the investigators T J.
Ward and the informant were able to provide a couple
of small pieces that were not crushed to be analyzed,
(14:35):
and they've been turned over to a top DNA analysts.
Who's you running them in the lad as we speak?
And the results have yet to be determined. Let's talk
about how they got those uh tiny bits of bone?
How did that happen? Aren't Harris with me Emmy Award
winning Reporter art. How did they manage after all this
(14:59):
time time to locate basically a little more than talcolm dust?
How did they get it after all this time? Well,
this source has has revealed the spot where he and
you're in buried the bones after they crushed what they
could and be quickly could into into small pieces in
(15:23):
a burlap bag that was wrapped in a tarp. That
tarp came from Paulice, uh, the father's house, And suddenly
they dig this up and they were able to find
enough remains there so that it was not just dust
that they they turned over. But they aren't. Can you
(15:45):
back up a moment. Everybody's been talking about the fact
that they crushed her remains and tried to burn them.
Now hold on, say that a little bit more slowly
for me. Aren't you're saying that after this cave incident
where the judge's son, yourn vander Slut tries to Actually
he pays somebody fifteen under bucks to go dig up
(16:05):
Natalie's body. They bring it to a cave where he
tries to crush there. I assume there was no soft
tissue left. She was skeletonized, so they try to pulverize
the bones and burn them. Now, what happened to the remains?
Then say that again for me slowly, Nancy. They were
(16:26):
not able to destroy them totally, and the informant was
able to identify a spot where enough bone was recovered
to be analyzed. The question is how well it was analyzed.
Art Harris Justice got Morgan and Alan Duke take a listen.
I want you to hear Dave Holloway. This is Natalie's
(16:48):
dad talking about having handed their findings over to a
Ruben police. Now, I would not trust a Reuben police
as far as I can throw them, you know, because
they protect this judge's son from the get go. And
police actually called back and claim they're going to the
suspected location. This is leading up to the excavation of
(17:13):
the remains of Natalie Holloway. Listen. So how field day.
I thought it was a very good meeting, and I
think they were excited and we're all kind of excited
that um you know this, Um Mike go down, and
I mean he was real receptive, and I mean I
felt real good about it. The balls in their court
and we we shared with them for three hours this
(17:36):
morning and turned turned that notebook over to them. Plus
all what we've did since we've been here, and we
have handed not only the informant but the parties involved
for them on a silver platterer and hopes that law
enforcement will take action and move quickly with a lot
of credible evidence. Yeah, it up, that's what you know.
(18:01):
Can I can we meet you there? Okay, I'm gonna
take about maybe in half an hour, all right, Why
don't we meet you there at five at the Big
White House. It's right there in that coverside. All right.
We have a special team here so we can have
them search devote area. We'll see you know, about forty
(18:22):
five minutes. All right, Okay, all right, thank you sir.
This might be it then. I mean, if Faith can
come in and start excavating, we'll see. Aren't the burrow
at bag in the tarp? That's what I want to
hear about. Where was that? And how did we find
out about it the leftover remains Nancy were buried by
this informant best friend of your hands, and he describes
(18:45):
this in an undercover sting with t J. Ward and
his best friend we see on the Auxten Special leads
them to a spot and they turned that information over
to the police. The police actually sinned, as you've said,
their own crime scene investigators to excavate the site and
recover enough bones from from the site to be analyzed
(19:10):
by this DNA expert back in the state. So do
you understand what he's saying, Joe Scott Morgan That they
actually go to Paul's manor Sluts home and they find
the remains in a tarp in a burlapp bag. Is
that what you said? Are they he led them to
where they had left the remains that were not uh,
(19:32):
you know, in the pit or in the spot where
they were initially buried. Where they at Paul's's house. We
find out that the informant admits to lying about certain
things along the way. Finally he tells them that they
are hidden in police's house and they go and find
part of the remains from the burlap bag at that place. Well,
(19:55):
this is what I don't get Joe Scott Morgan helped
me out on this. The mom, I guess is still
living there. I mean Vanderslout gave his dad, the judge,
Paul's Vanderslut, a heart attack. He dropped dead, I think,
on a tennis court in the midst of all this.
So how do they not know there's some a dead
girl's bones in the house. I have no idea. I'm
(20:16):
I'm shocked as anybody by this. Uh. As a matter
of fact, UH, from a scientific standpoint, I'd be far
more interested at this point, uh in these remains that
they have allegedly found at the house. Because let's keep
in mind, if they are in a protected area, they
will not have been exposed to to this harsh environment
(20:37):
out there. They won't have been buried. I don't know
where they found them, they're saying they found them, and
I don't know what condition they're in. But what we
could do is have those bones examined and find out
who they belonged to, at least get get some kind
of of racial profiling of the of the remainders. And
a minute, we we already have some indication of it.
(20:59):
But what I'm trying to say, Alan, maybe I'm not
being clear, Okay, Alan, Duke, They've gotten remains from somewhere, Alan,
Because there is a renowned doctor on the case called Kowski,
who worked ground zero at nine one one and started
a forensics arm, a lab of sorts at a college
(21:24):
in New York. He is no idiot, okay, And he
says these remains are of a girl, a lady of
Eastern European descent. So, um, Joe's got Morgan. I've been
told that it's going to take a long time, several
weeks before we've got the answer because from these destroyed remains,
(21:49):
he's got to extract DNA. Does that make sense to you? No,
it doesn't. Why because it doesn't take that long to
examine bone for DNA. What if it's ground up bone
and you have to extract the DNA from it, still
not going to take that interesting. This has been This
has been repeated over and over and over again. It
(22:11):
does not take this long to test bone. And plus
he's already stated that he has identified these bones as
being of European extraction, he already has the information beyond that.
You don't stop at that point and then say, well
it's going to take a little while for us to
(22:32):
go forward from here. It doesn't take I have no
reason to doubt Kolkowski. Um, take a listen to this, Nancy.
Let's listen to as part of your interview recently with Gabriel,
the informant, the one who made it all happen, who
led t. J. Ward and Dave Holloway to Aruba and
to this source who eventually led them to the grave
(22:53):
that is now believed to have been Natalie Holloway's. To Gabriel,
who's at the central of all this. Gabriel, what bones
do you believe that they are examining? Because it's been
made very clear US expert is looking at bones brought
in from Aruba. So if something was cremated, what is
there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um, he
(23:17):
said many stories as we were we were doing the
the the investigation. And uh, I cannot say, because there's
a twist to all this. It could be true, it
could be a lie, but there's a twist to everything,
so I can't really. I have to keep you guys
in this question. To you, Gabriel, from what you learned
(23:40):
through John, what have you learned about who is your
vander Slute. What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's
a social path, He's a popolos, a liar. He basically
thinks about himself and if he could be on TV
and be in the spotlight, that's what he wants. What
I have learned from from John. How do you think
(24:02):
he is holding up now? Is he's still in connection
in contact with John because he's in Peru now Vandersluce
in Peru. As far as side, No, no, John has not.
He said the last time that John wrote him a
letter was back in two let's see two, and has
(24:26):
not written to him since then, because I guess they
were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that
your Vanderslute's father, Paul Is Vanderslute, the judge he was
now dead, was covering up for his son. Oh definitely.
There is something else that does that. Not even a
documentary people have of material that how it came to be,
(24:51):
where Natalie was placed to her place to rest for
the very first time? Where was she at? And they
don't even have the material. I try to tell him,
but they don't listen to me. Well, where where was it?
I cannot say it right now due to my lawyer.
I can't. I can't disclose that right now. I understand,
I understand, But this way, I'm just gonna give you
a little hint. Paula's had a best friend in Holland
(25:15):
that had they had a property. Paula's knew it very well,
that property, very very well. And that's all I can
tell you for now. What was it like to be
working undercover trying to crack this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly,
(25:35):
Nancy Um, I'm not you know, I'm not a cop,
I'm not an investigator, and none of this God gave
me the will and it was very, very frustrating. It's like, uh,
handling a five year old childhood tantrums day by day.
It was very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has
(25:58):
I mean, if you were locked in with him, you
were finally strangling because there's no way. And I had
to take all that crap. I had to grow thick
skin in order to get the information I needed to
solve this. How long did it take you, Gabriel Um?
Approximately almost five years mm hmm, because I started in
(26:20):
slow to get in him. Once I was in, and
at the end I pushed hard, and I got what
I wanted. I was almost there, almost there when everybody
gave up but me, and I said, no, no, I'm
not gonna let this go. I know he's there and
I know, and something remarkable happened, and there the second
(26:43):
week of April, and I went back when everybody gave up,
I went back and it was exactly the spot where
I kind of had a general idea and everybody was
blown the way. The one that was blown away the most,
which he had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember
calling him and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes,
(27:03):
you gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells
me called Chief Vichinson. So I did, gives me the number.
I called him, and I said, I want to meet you.
I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But
when I met him, he goes, you want to know something.
I go what. He goes teaching work, called me to
put you in jail. I go for what he goes
(27:24):
for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not
gonna do that. Can you take me where you where
you found remains? I go yes, So we go back there.
They check the area out and then they leave and
I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you
one thing. When we were outside the hotel when they
seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people,
(27:46):
They're like, he virts, asks him is this human? And
they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There
was a piece of a skull and other pieces which
I don't want to say. According to day Ave Holloway
and the US medical doctor expert, human remains were found
(28:08):
and the doctor is analyzing them and extracting DNA from them.
They are human remains belonging to a female. So, Gabriel,
how does it work? How could there be bones and
this cremation story? Well, Nancy, it's very simple. If you
(28:29):
cream me something, you're not gonna have bones. So the
other option is it never got created. That is simple answer,
but it's part of the documentary. I cannot says. It's
a big twist. I hear you. I mean they That's
what I was just saying, and you said it very succinctly.
They can't both be true. Someone may have been mixed
(28:51):
with a dog at a crematory. Bones may have been
taken and moved but they can't be the same thing. Now,
are you have a bombshell? What have you learned from
your sources? Aren't Harris? And I think what I'm learning
is that initial tests were inconclusive because the tests came
(29:13):
from a mixture of the bones that were pulverized, and
to do a better test you need to test individual bones.
And actually they're doing that now, Nancy. So they're running
more tests on more bones that I have learned from
a source. So are you saying that there are bones
in two locations? Is that what you're saying is that
(29:37):
the bombshell their bones in two locations. What I'm saying,
math is that they had a certain amount of bones
to test. Some were crushed and tested together. They have
a couple of remaining pieces they're now testing individually to
see if they can get a more definitive DNA match
(29:57):
to be able to say this is Natalie. Is they
have narrowed it to a woman of Eastern European descent
in that age category, and now they're trying to zero
in to give the father the closures. They have more
bones to test. They tested initially bones that were mixed
together that didn't necessarily give a definitive answer that would
(30:21):
conform to what Joe Scott Morgan is saying that they
had enough time. They did, but they didn't have the
best samples to declare that what they are finding or
would find is a bona fide and respected result. Natalie
Holloway was on her high school trip in Aruba when
she went missing, and it was five years to the
(30:44):
day that another young woman was murdered by yourn vander Salute,
Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He is now behind bars in Peru
on that murder. But the reality is that being behind
bars has been a cake walk for yourn Vanderslute. He
has gotten ahold of alcohol, reported drugs, and even fathered
(31:07):
a baby from behind prison walls. So with that in mind,
Joseph Scott Morgan, if this pans out to be true,
would he be returned to a Ruba for prosecution if
the a Reuben authorities have the will to move forward.
(31:30):
My thought is is that, uh, if this is going
to be this crucial piece of evidence could potentially be
used as legal leverage by our US State Department to
compel the Auruban authorities to get off of their Reari
ends and do something about this case, which to this
point the kind of failed to do. We know that
(31:53):
the informant Ludwick previously said Vanderslout paid in fift bucks
to pick up, not dig up. Now they's remains near
a residential property in Aruba. Okay, that's got to be
the police vander Salute home or a friend of police
(32:13):
vander Salutes. Alan Duke. I was also told that the
remains were buried on the property of a friend of
Paulice vander Slutz. Now that is inconsistent with finding the
remains in vander slutz family home. What do we know?
I think the problem is that there are sources that
cannot be revealed. Now there's some confidential outlets come out
(32:36):
Nancy that the remains were found near his house at
a relatives property. And they are testing, you know, now
a new samples because the first ones came back undetermined,
(32:57):
and they know they have confidence that they're going to
get a good result from individual pieces of bone that
they did not test that way initially. You know, when
you hear that Joe Scott Morgan that they're now going
on that's a huge bombshell that they're going on to
another test that the first one was indeterminate because now
(33:20):
they have more of a bone. Is that putting the
puzzle together for you, Joe Scott? Yeah, it kind of
brings it into into clear focus. And just let me
expand on this just a little bit. When you've got
this pulpified bone that has been crushed, albeit probably at
a very rudimentary level, it's still going to be what
(33:41):
we refer to in forensics as being a commingled sample.
That means that you know, we talked about dog bones
and all this other stuff. If they are commingled with
these other remains, that's gonna be problematic if the thing
is pulpified and commingled. If you think about a bone
as an individual little case that's carrying sensitive information, like
(34:03):
a briefcase, for instance, and that briefcase has not been
broken open, all right, it's still got the sensitive information
in it. That is going to be a much that's
gonna have a higher likelihood of containing viable DNA sample
as opposed to something that has been put under pressure
and crushed. So yeah, I'm gonna be really interested if
they are in fact running a second test. Another thing
(34:27):
that we have to consider here from a legal standpoint
is the provenance of the evidence. Where did this come from?
Are we talking about a couple of different sites here?
Are we talking about somebody that that's some creep that's
holding on too remains of some deceased person, uh and
they're storing them back. Or here's a big one. There
(34:47):
are other missing people in a Ruba, Nancy. It is
not just poor Natalie, it's other people that are missing
down there. So this is gonna be key to not
just this case, but to other case. There there's a
lot there, There's a lot of weight to bear here.
I think that a big reveal is in the future
and that's that's what we're waiting to see. Listen to
(35:09):
this from the Oxygen series on Natalie Holloway. Earlier we
heard part of t J Ward's interrogation of John, but
now let's listen to more of this. This is what
you'll hear towards the end of episode five of the
disappearance of Natalie Holloway on Oxygen. Tell me what you
know or what he told you about Mount halliway, the
(35:30):
first night he ever opened up about it, about the
May thirtieth night was we were at my house, my
night in the Lifetime movie came on, so we last year,
and throughout the movie there they're doing different things and stuff,
and he started telling me like, you know, that's not true,
like that he was picking movie apart. Tommy, Yeah, that's true.
That's bogan is that's true, that's bogus. So that's how
(35:51):
we started talking to me. Eventually, after the movie ended
that night, he started talking about it and said, you know, John,
I want you to know that bad things happen to
good people. Accidents happened. Where did he takenamily got night?
I'm not sure he acted rates her, but I know
that he said I had help and it wasn't It
(36:12):
wasn't beat back in Cities. Who helped him? He never
said Polis his name, but him tied it was his father.
So after something happened to her on the beach, he
called Paulas. Yes, and then what happened, I guess Paulas
came and helped him figure out how to get rid
of evidence. Where did they detect the body after they
got her off the beach? He's dad. He got everything disposal,
(36:37):
I mean before sunrise that they where there's a cold
there's a quotas act there that on the top of
the hill, that it's desert dated cactuses and thornful ships
and nobody goes up there. At what point in time
did he ask you and tell you about doing someone
(36:57):
remaining noting all the way? Now, what does he want
you to do? Well? He knew I was heavily hooked
on heroin at the time, and I didn't have the
resources to keep it up daily. So he was saying,
I'll give you for your help. Did he in fact
give you fift yes? Okay? Did you go by yourself
(37:20):
under his instruction? Did he go with you? No? Because
he smell I want you to think about that. Did
he go with you the dig a remains up? Yes?
Did he go with you? Up? With you? All? Right?
So y'all went out there and about for nights, okay?
(37:45):
And what happened? The burlap sack was wrapped in a
la tart, so it was kind of like keeping stuff
from seeking out. Basically, did you open it up? Did
you look at it? Okay? What'd you say? It? Very nasty?
Look through my blackish strown dried matter. How do you feel,
(38:08):
I'm sure? How did you feel when you saw I
almost threw up? Right? Away just from the the gas
from over till throw dick or do you take a
remin do you not go? Believe to your rants crops?
We originally he had discussed getting a cremated, but at
(38:29):
that time it wasn't legal, but apparently some places we'd
do it for pets. And what did you do? The
idea was to crush everything to the point where it's
not recognizable as arm bones or skull or anything like that.
Did you do someone to remain before you broke from up?
Or did did you do something remain after you broke
(38:49):
from up? Did you burn him? The only thing that
got burnt with the the skull to learn the hair fighters,
there's doused and gas mean and fire being kept. It's
about fifty yards to the right of Hits from VI
in the desert. You are hearing sound from Oxygen's special
(39:14):
documentary series on the Search for Natalie Holloway that starts
with her dad Dave Holloway, along with a P. D. T. J. Ward,
now private investigator, trying to follow leads and find his daughter.
That leads me to our question as to whether you're
vander Slute will ever be extradited to the U. S art.
(39:39):
What do you make of it? Will he be extradited here? Fancy?
The FBI has been reluctant to to trust this very
questionable friend of vander Sluts as a witness to get
any to get the killer extradited to the States alleged killer,
because they need evidence to be able to convict in
so far, all they've got against him is shaking down
(40:05):
shaking down Natalie's mother for twenty dollars. That is not
enough to get an extradge of the States. If they
can get enough solid evidence from the site and Reuben
authorities will invite the FBI in for a joint investigation.
Big if they could possibly develop extradition material to get
(40:26):
him sent to the States to be tried for murder.
But they had there are a lot of a lot
of things to jump over before that. How does how
do you get him here for murder because it happened
in Araba? Well, the FBI has jurisdiction over Americans killed
abroad and if they can develop a case jointly with
(40:48):
the Rubens could be tried in the States as well.
This must be a nightmare for her parents. It's like
it will never end. Never too, aren't Harris Emmy Award
winning investigative reporter and Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator forensics
(41:08):
professor at Jacksonville State University. We're on the case. Thank you,
Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend. Do you
find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there
(41:29):
was a group of people just like you to talk
motives and alibis with. If so, joined the Crime Con
Cold Case Club and work alongside experts and fellow crime
sleuths to help uncover new leads and theories in the
cold cases. They adopt. Their first cold case focuses on
the mysterious disappearance of nursing student Maura Murray in two
thousand four, and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen.
Sign up now or find more info at Club dot
(41:52):
crime con dot com. That's club dot crime con dot com.
Host
Nancy Grace
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