January 21, 2025 • 39 mins
A New Jersey teacher is accused of sexually abusing her former 5th grade student for four years, while he and his two siblings lived with her. Laura Caron, now 34, also has a 5-year-old son who police believe was fathered by the victim when he was just 13 years old. Caron’s arrest comes after the victim’s father noticed striking similarities between Caron’s son and his eldest son, now an adult.
Caron, then 26, taught fifth grade at Middle Township Elementary School when she develops a close relationship with a male student’s mother. The mom knows her two younger children will also come through Caron’s class, and they become fast friends. Caron agrees to babysit for the family as needed, which turns into overnight stays a few times a week. Eventually, the three children, two boys and a girl, live with Caron full time.
All three children share a bedroom on the second floor, but in the morning, the eldest brother’s bed is usually empty. His siblings typically find him on the first floor, coming from Caron’s bedroom. The younger siblings also frequently catch Caron going into the bathroom while their brother showers, then exiting with him, also wet and wearing a towel. While Caron and the children watch TV before bed, Caron always sits with the eldest 11-year-old boy in a reclining chair. The two younger children usually fall asleep while watching a movie, but one evening, the middle brother, 8, wakes up and notices Caron and his brother shifting around in the reclining chair. The two are covered by a blanket, but he can tell Caron’s hand is moving under the blanket.
Three years after inviting her student and his siblings to live with her, Caron gives birth to a baby boy. Caron is very quiet about the baby’s father, claiming he isn’t ready to a dad, but she is grateful for the blessing he gave her. Caron continues to care for the siblings alongside her baby boy.
The three children move out of Caron’s home just after her son’s first birthday, but Caron still stays in close contact with the family, their daughter, the last to enter fifth grade.
The boy’s mother is scrolling through Facebook when she comes across a photo of Laura Caron’s son, who’s now 5 years old. She shows the photo to her husband, who comments that the boy looks strikingly similar to their eldest son. He admits he fathered Caron’s baby, but he begs her to let it go because he doesn’t want Caron to get in trouble. The boy’s father takes to Facebook, commenting on Caron’s photo that her kindergartener looks a lot like his son, who was just 13 when the baby was born. Middle Township Superintendent Dr. David Salvo gets wind of the post and goes straight to the police, reporting a teacher may have had an inappropriate relationship with a student.
Middle Township police begin investigating the superintendent’s claims, and interview Caron’s alleged victim, now an adult. The boy comes clean with police, telling them Caron instigated a sexual relationship with him in 2016, shortly after he and his siblings moved into her home. The boy says he did father Caron’s baby, and their relationship continued physically until the siblings moved out in 2020, but that he had kept in contact with her until his family discovered the truth.
Laura Caron, 34, arrested outside her Cape May Court House home just over a week after her victim’s damning interview, charged with sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, and endangering a minor by sexual conduct. Caron now held at the Cape May County Correctional Facility.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Mark Tate - Trial Lawyer- TateLawGroup.com
- Dr. John Delatorre - Licensed psychologi
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, A sickoe purv fifth grade
teacher thirty four has a baby with her boy student
age eleven. Whoa wait, a thirty four year old woman
(00:24):
has a sex relationship. That's called right, that's not a
relationship with an eleven year old boy that is in
her class in the fifth grade. I still remember my
fifth grade teacher, Katie Amerson, one of the best teachers
I ever had. That's my happy memory. This eleven year
old boy fathers a baby with his thirty four year
(00:48):
old fifth grade teacher. Okay, I'm Nancy Grace, this is
Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Fifth grade
teacher Laura Corone sparks a close friendship with the mom
of one of her students, But things on when a
Facebook post reveals a bombshell secret.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Okay, a bombshell secret.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
How is that a secret when you carry a baby
nine months and give birth.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Let's just start at the beginning. Listen.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Laura Karen, twenty six, has been teaching fifth grade in
Middle Township Elementary School for just over two years. When
she begins to develop a close relationship with her male
student's mother. The mom knows her two younger children will
also come through Karen's class and they become fast friends
with me.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
An all star panel to make sense of what we
are learning right now. But first I want to go
straight out to a renowned psychologist, doctor John Delatory, before
I get into the facts.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I think I need a shrink on this.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
A thirty four year old female teacher. A lot of
people want to say has sex with an eleven year
old student. When that teacher is a female, that's statutory rape. Okay,
let's don't say had sex with doctor Delatory. I don't
get it. I don't understand it. A it's a crime,
(02:04):
but B, this didn't just happen one time.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
According to reports, this went on for years.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
And what nobody noticed the teacher was pregnant for Pete's sake.
I don't understand how that can happen under the noses
of the school. I don't understand how that can happen
and nobody figures it out. And the attraction, let's start
with the attraction. I don't understand that.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah, So I think when we're looking at the age
of the victim in this case, we're potentially looking at
a possible diagnosis of pedophilic disorder. Now, with pedophilic disorder,
we're dealing with individuals who will cross sexual boundaries or
offend against children, typically thirteen years or younger, over the
course of six months or longer. It's clear that that's
(02:52):
obviously what happened. I mean, she ended up getting pregnant
by the victim in this case. You're absolutely right, Nancy.
We can't use the word had sex with because that
applies some level of consent. There's no consent when the
victim in the case is eleven years old. It doesn't
matter if it's a boy or a girl. It does
not matter. This woman offended against this child. This child
(03:12):
is a victim.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
This child is going Hey, okay, Delatory, Delatory, Delatory control room.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Can you please show me Karen's photo again?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Okay? I want to want Delatory to look at her.
This is the question I'm saying online. She's young, she's pretty,
she's fit.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Look at her. What there are no men her age?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
She has to pray on an eleven year old boy?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
What is her problem?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And when you say some kind of pedophilic what did
you say a pedophilic what pedophilic disorder?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Pedophilic disorder? This is not a disorder.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Why are you saying that? Because see, I think you're
stirring the pot. You're putting fuel.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
To the flame.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
De Tory, this is a crime. You're acting like it's
an illness, a disorder.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Well, here's the thing is that I'm not a lawyer, right,
I'm not a judge, I'm not a cop. My job
as a psychologist is to explain what exactly it is
that's going on. We as psychologist, especially me, as someone
who's treated sex offenders before, see this as a disorder.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
We see this as.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Something that can be treated but has underlying pathology, underlying
psychological issues. Are there men her age, of course there are?
Are there single men her age, of course there are.
But she convinced herself that she was having a relationship
with this eleven year old. In her mind, she believed
what she was doing was wrong. That's disordered thinking, Nancy.
(04:42):
That's where psychologist comes in.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yes, it's a crime, of course, it's crime.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Is always going to be a crime. But some things
need to be treated, some things need to kind of
understand from a psychological conspective in order to prevent it
from happening again.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Okay, you know what.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It was my fault for asking you the question. I
can't blame you. I blame myself because I ask you why.
And frankly, why doesn't matter. It took me five years
prosecuting violent felonies to stop looking over at the defendant
in the middle of court thinking why would you cause
this wake of pain? Leaving it behind you because of
(05:18):
what you did? Why doesn't matter? And when you say treatment,
I hope she can get treatment behind bars. And I
think I know someone's going to disagree with you. Anna
Sonoda joining me. She is an expert in child sex abuse.
She's a grooming expert, a clinical social worker. She also
counsels convicted sex offenders. I would not want to spend
(05:40):
my day doing that. And she is the author of
Duck Groom. Help me Out, Anna Sonoda, I hear delatory
from his point of view talking about treatment to Hay
with treatment, she needs to be behind bars for a
really long time. I don't know who's going to raise
this baby. She gave birth to the father at eleven
(06:01):
year old. Student Nandy.
Speaker 6 (06:03):
You mentioned before the most important part, which is not
why they do it, it's how they do it. Your audience
needs to recognize that grooming took place, and that predators
often groom the parents or the caregivers of their identified
target in advance or alongside the child they're grooming. In
this case, we see that she had access through her
(06:25):
role as a teacher, and she developed a close relationship
with the child's mother, and this set this young, poor
victim up for failure from the get go.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Ron Bateman joining me.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Former homicide undercover narcotics hes at ronbaatemanbooks dot com, author
of a crime trilogy, Ron Bateman, you know we're hearing
a lot about treatment and counseling for this woman. I'm
not quite sure you and I are on the same page.
Speaker 7 (06:53):
Please respond, Oh my god, we are definitely on the
same page. Treatment. Yeah, like you said, treatment behind bars.
But you know, as a cop, the first thing I
think think of is this the first time? You think
this is the first kid eleven years old, if she's
ever touched, I highly doubt it. This is just the
first one she's been caught on. And you know what
I think about the long term effect that's going to
be on this poor child. Can you see him now? Hey, daddy,
(07:15):
how do you? Mommy me?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (07:16):
She was my fifth grade teacher. Really give me a.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Break, Oh the way you just said that. Guys, the
seminal case are there are a couple of them. Let's start
with possibly the most famous one that brought to the
forefront of our national conscious, the phenomena of a female
sex predator praying on children, specifically their students.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Mary Kay Laturno.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Listen, I did something that I had no right to do,
Laura Lee or legally.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
It was wrong.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
That's Mary Kay Laturno in court after she gives birth
to a baby by her student.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
The that's from our friends at NBC. Listen.
Speaker 8 (08:10):
Steve Laturno finds love letters written by his pregnant wife,
but they aren't to him. The letters are for one
of Mary Kay Laturno's students, a twelve year old boy
she's been tutoring since he was eight. It turns out
Laturno's pregnancy is a result of a sexual relationship with
the boy. Laturno is sentenced to three months in prison
as part of a plea agreement, but after her release,
(08:31):
Laturno's caught having sex with the student again. Laturno's agreement
is revoked and she gives birth to the boy's second child.
Eight months into her seven year sentence, so she gets.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Out on a light sentence because she is an attractive female.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
She gets slap on the wrist.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
She gets out after a few more months, and what
does she do immediately violate the judge's order and she
is caught in a steamed up vehicle in the middle
of the night with the boys student back in the car. Okay, yeah,
her this hit the news in a big way. Joining
me is Mark Tate, a veteran trial lawyer out of
(09:11):
the Savannah jurisdiction with the Tate Law Group. Mark, I mean,
wouldn't you counselor your client listen, can you just stay
away from the little boy you've gotten out in three months?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Stay away from him, go have sex with somebody else.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And I'd like to to point out that I heard
Crime Online dot Com reporter Holden Zapple referring to it
as sex.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's not. It's rape. It is statutory rape. Think about it,
Mark Tate.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And this is what I'm sure you've seen many prosecutors
do with juries.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I'm sure you've done it in civil.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Cases where you say, what if this boy because v
Filao was six feet at least, what if this boy
was an eleven year old girl. Think about it, Think
about that, and sometimes you have to do that.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
I think the gender of the victim really in this instance,
I don't think that it helps. I don't think it
hurts her. She's going to jail. What she did is
indefensible in terms of her guilt. The only way to
deal with what this lady, miss Karan or Karan did,
I think most likely is going to be focusing on
what the sentencing is going to be. And I know
(10:26):
that many people are heavily in favor you included Nancy
in incarceration, and that's going to be a way to
stop or prevent her or even others perhaps from doing it.
But incarcerating this lady for a lengthy period of time
only means she's going to get out and be a hardened,
possibly smarter, more dangerous predator. And so to some extent,
(10:46):
I agree with mister or doctor Delatore that she's going
to have to while in prison, which I certainly deserved here.
She's going to have to get some kind of counseling
or she's going to run out of money to hire lawyers,
and she's not going to have any hope of really,
and we're not going to have who really is a society?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Are you about her recovering?
Speaker 9 (11:10):
Well, we don't want her to get us and go
out and keep doing this.
Speaker 10 (11:12):
We got to stop.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
No, I don't want her to get loose. Period.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You can in the sentence right there, take I don't
want her.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
To get you where a man, she would get twenty
to life hard time.
Speaker 9 (11:22):
She's not going to get twenty to life. She's facing
ten to twenty. So we got to deal with not
what Nancy Grace's justice is. We got to deal with
what's going to happen in New Jersey. And she's going
to eventually be free, and when we let her go,
we need.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
To make sure she's because it's happening in New Jersey.
Just because it's happening, just because it's being done, doesn't
mean it should be done. Ron Bateman, the disparity between
female and male sentences in sex crimes is astonishing. And
did you just hear him Mark Tate talking about getting
(11:57):
her treatment tree, Yeah.
Speaker 7 (12:01):
You know it's and he's right. She is going to
get out and it's not going to be a maximum
sentence is twenty okay? And she's going to get good time.
Hopefully she'll get treatment inside, but she's going to have
to be monitored so closely like a dog in a cage,
to keep her from doing this again.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
It began with one or two nights a week. What
started as an innocent enough sleepover at teacher Laura Karen's
home soon spiraled into every parents for snightmare?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Okay, wait a minute, a sleepover? Wait?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we're learning right now. In addition to Mark Tate,
doctor John de la Torre, Ron Bateman, and a Sonoda
joining me now, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave
Matt So, Dave matt, I want you to explain to me.
So the parents let the children sleep over at the
(12:53):
teacher's house.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Apparently, n Nancy, This is ultimately a grooming thing that
took place. This fifth grade teach began her relationship with
the mother. That's how she developed because she knew that
the mom has three children and all three will be
coming through her class as a fifth grade teacher, So
she gets the oldest one, and that's where she begins
the relationship with the mom, knowing and mom knowing that
(13:15):
she's going to be my fifth grade teacher for my
two other children. They begin that relationship, and all of
a sudden, the fifth grade teacher begins babysitting. Hey, it's convenient.
We know her, we trust her, so she makes a
great babysitter. And that's where it all started.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Okay, Dave Matt, isn't it true that you have a son?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yes, ma'am, Okay, I would not allow it.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Do you remember when he was Do you remember when
he was eleven?
Speaker 6 (13:39):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Can I tell you something. I had the greatest fifth
grade teacher. She wasn't the only one at our public
school out in the middle of rural bib County, doctor
John H. Hurd Elementary School, Miss Amison, and of course
my kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, fifth grade
(14:02):
and more teachers all sat behind our family at the
Liberty United Methist Church on Sunday mornings too.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
All right. It was a very close knit Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
They were sitting right there behind me on Sunday mornings
with my family. That said, I get it because knowing
those teachers, Dave mac and how wonderful they were. They
taught not only me, my sister and my brother, but
my mother. Okay, they taught my mother in elementary school.
(14:33):
We knew them forever. And yes, yes, I could see
them babysitting for us and not thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Twice, So I get it. But you were talking about the.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Grooming process, how the grooming started with the mother. The
teacher got to be friends with the mother, right.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Right, That's exactly what happened. Okay, hold on, I'm glad
you told me that.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Wait a second, because I want to take that one
tidbit and go out to Annasinota joining us author of
Duck Duck Groom, Anna Sonoda.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I get that part.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I get it because if my mom had hired a babysitter,
which we couldn't have because we couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
But that's it.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
If we had a babysitter, I could see any of
the teachers I just referred to first, second, third, fourth, fifth,
and beyond as being the babysitter.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
They were that trusted and that close to our family.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
You're absolutely right. Over ninety percent of the time the
victims are victimized by someone known and trusted, not just
to the child themselves, but to the caregivers. And this
case highlights the fact that when predators are positioned in
environments close to minors with access in space, predators will
take advantage of that every time. Here you have a
(15:47):
teacher who's well positioned in the school system. She has
gained respect. She started this job in twenty fourteen, began
a relationship with the child and the child's mother, and
exploited and charged upon that trust in order to get
what she wanted, which was a sexual abuse situation with
(16:07):
the child. This is an appalling abusive power and every
listener needs to recognize that they are vulnerable as the
adult when it comes to protecting their child from potential predators,
even in trusting environments such as school.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Guys, we were talking about a thirty four year old
teacher giving birth to the baby of an eleven year
old fifth grade student. The teacher has started babysitting for
the family and that graduated into sleepovers of the siblings.
(16:43):
When they would be babysat by this teacher could spend
the night listen.
Speaker 8 (16:46):
The younger siblings noticed strange behavior from Karen and their
eleven year old brother, and in the morning, the eldest
brother's bed is usually empty. His siblings typically find him
on the first floor, coming from Karen's bedroom. The younger
siblings also frequently catch Karen going into the bathroom while
their brother showers, then exiting with him, also wet and
wearing a towel.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Okay, so let me understand Dave Matt joining us klim
online dot com. Not only the eleven year old boy,
but the siblings would all stit spend the night occasionally
with the fifth grade teacher.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
And you know, think about it, Nancy, wouldn't that La
Just it would make you not worry as much because
all three of my kids are over there. They're all safe,
they're with their teacher. But she played it out right
in front of them. The kids knew something was going on.
She didn't hide it. I mean, David, all go to
bed upstairs.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Up, Wait a minute, Dave Matt isn't the eleven year
old boy. Is he the oldest of the three siblings, Yes,
he is. Okay, So a lot of times you see
things as a child and you don't understand that they're wrong. Right,
So the younger siblings who are under eleven, may have
seen the teacher going in and out of the bathroom
when the eleven year old was in the bathroom and
(17:56):
didn't realize anything was wrong too, Doctor John Dell Tori
joining me, renounced psychologist, You may first ask, well, why
didn't they tell their parents?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
They may not have realized there was anything to tell parents.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah, you're exactly right, Nancy. What they know is that
something is different, but they don't know something is wrong.
And depending on how their parents presented sexual behaviors and
what is bad touch and what is good touch, what
authority is, what trust is depending on that, they may
not be sophisticated enough to know that their brother is
(18:30):
being abused, and the brother doesn't know any different, right,
The oldest of them just thinks that he's getting all
of this special attention. She wants everybody to believe that
everything is happening is okay, that nothing is going wrong.
By not calling attention to stuff, by making sure everybody's there,
all the children are there together, she's kind of making
sure that no suspicion is brought upon her, that she's
(18:52):
actually engaging in criminal acts.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (19:07):
South Jersey fifth grade teacher Laura Karen is accused of
sexually abusing her student for four years but the horrors
don't stop. There. Authorities alleged the thirteen year old victim
is the father of Karen's five year old son.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, there's your evidence. All you need is a DNA
test on the baby boy. And let me just tell you,
the family noticed first, without any DNA test, that the
little baby looked like the boy had the eleven year
old boy had spit him out. He'll just like the
eleven year old boy. The similarity was overwhelming. Guys, in
(19:43):
our digital age, the possibility for teachers to pray on
their students is has skyrocketed exponentially. I'm talking about a teacher,
Pamela Rogers, who raped her student.
Speaker 11 (20:02):
Listen, I'm betraying my profession and then sent them that
I'm truly ashamed of. Can I betray the family and
the victim.
Speaker 12 (20:13):
Pamela Rogers, a pe teacher and coach at Centertown Elementary,
happens to have a close friend's thirteen year old son
in her class. When Rogers falls between places, the mom
allows Rogers to stay with her for a few months.
During the stay, she finds her son in bed with Rogers.
Rogers spends nine months in jail and on her release,
strikes up her relationship with the boy again, sending him
(20:35):
provocative and even nude photos and videos using her father's
cell phone.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh my stars, it's Mary Kayla Turno all over again.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
The mom gives Pamela.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Rogers a place to crash for a few weeks, finds
Pamela Rogers, the teacher in bed with her son. Pamela
Rogers goes to jail, and what does she do The
minute she gets out after a few months out out
behind bars, she's back at it, praying on a little boy.
Now it doesn't just in there. You heard that Pamela
(21:08):
Rodgers would send videos.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Look at this video. Brace yourself. This is okay.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Here she's slinking up the camera. Oh, this is too
A little boy, a thirteen just turned thirteen year old
little boy. And trust me, I've cut this video. I
have cut a lot of it out because she turns
around and gives a serious booty shot show after this. Okay,
control room seen enough of Pamela Rogers shimmying up the
(21:37):
camera joining me in a sonoda, Child sex abuse and
grooming expert, author of Duck Duck Groom, Anna, did you
see the video? How can the parents know? Unless they
come through the child's phone every night that the teacher,
of all people is sending these videos.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Nancy.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
The thing about predators is that they are everywhere, but
they're not everyone, and they stand out in their strange behavior.
You know, we used to hear the term stranger danger.
I want your audience to remember strange behavior. These teachers
are clear examples of distorted, sick women who are showing
and displaying repeatedly strange behavior after strange behavior. And in
(22:22):
this situation, you have a keen audience because you have
a classroom of vulnerable students, and predators are selective. They
can select the families and the children to groom in
order to be successful in their abuse. And these cases
are devastating for the male victims.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You know, Dolatory, this teacher, she looks like she should
be on a stripper pole at the Gold Club. Whatever,
Doctor DELATORI she made that video with a little boy
in mind. It's not why she was putting it on
her OnlyFans website for grown men. That was made specifically
for a little boy. At what point, and I'm going
(23:01):
to follow up with criminal defense attorney Mark Tate, at
what point when you're doing something wrong. Do you not go, hey,
this is wrong?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Do criminals not?
Speaker 1 (23:13):
When I even tell a lie I feel hot all over.
I'm convinced I'm going to be caught because I always am.
I feel bad about it. Does that not kick in
with criminals? I mean, she's making this video and it's
specifically expressly made to send a little boy who's just
turned thirteen. At what point do you go, hey, I
(23:34):
should probably put some clothes on and not send this video.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
They did it early, very early on, potentially even before
they even decided to engage in a contact abuse right
where they actually decided to touch the victim. But that
was overridden right by the compulsion to want to abuse
the victim. It was overridden by the justifications and rationalizations
that they tell themselves that they tell other people.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
We see all these videos of them, you know, with
Mary Kayla Turno and Pamela Rogers apologizing while they're in court.
They're only sorry that they got If they were actually sorry,
then they never would have done it in the beginning.
So everything is about their own compulsion in satisfying their
own needs that it overrides the guilty feelings that every
other one of us who wouldn't do this, would be experiencing.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
In a sonoda.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It seems to me we're talking a lot tonight about
treatment and making the rapist get better.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I mean, have I lost my mind? What about the boy?
Speaker 6 (24:32):
You haven't lost your mind, Nancy. I think our focus
needs to be on this young victim, not to mention
he is a victim here, but also this five year
old baby who was born out of a rape. Now
this is going to be something that he will have
to come to terms with as he grows and develops.
You've got two very severely damaged young boys in this situation,
(24:57):
and it can be a lifelong recovery for victims and
survivors of child sexual abuse. But it certainly improved outcomes
when there are consequences for predators. And too often with
female offenders, we just write it off and we say, oh,
she's not that harmful, she's not that much of a
concern to society, and.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
In factful, wait a minute, Anna a sonoda, I think
that there are other victims.
Speaker 13 (25:23):
Listen to this, Anna, Well, Karen and the children watch
TV before bed. Karen always sits with the eldest, eleven
year old boy in a reclining chair. The two younger
children usually fall asleep while watching a movie, but one evening,
the middle brother, eight, wakes up and notices Karen and
his brother shifting around in the reclining chair. The two
are covered by a blanket, but he can tell Karen's
(25:44):
hand is moving under the blanket on his brother's genitals.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Anna, Sinota, you were mentioning victims. What about the siblings
of this boy that were there when all of this
was happening. Anna, could you describe how this affects a child,
even a boy, for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
Anna, I think one of the ways that we can
improve outcomes is from a acknowledging that when female predators
abuse young male victims, it is the exact same damage
as if the genders were reversed. What we have in
society is allowing female predators to quote unquote educate young
(26:27):
boys about sex and intimacy, and that fance does not
facilitate recovery and growth for victims. First of all, we
need to be glad that in this case it was
even reported. We had to wait for a baby to
turn five before we even acknowledge that this abuse was
(26:48):
going on. What we have to keep in mind is
that males who are victimized in their youth rarely reported.
Female predators rarely get charged or convicted. If they are convicted,
they get reduced sentences at enormous rates, and it perverses
sexual relationships for the adult survivors as they go through
(27:11):
their relationships. So this is an enormous problem that we
all must acknowledge and to even take that first step
of awareness that females can be predators. We often think
of females as the safe gender, the safe sex. Well,
these cases, Nancy highlight the fact that parents need to
(27:32):
be on guard for signs of grooming and then if
they recognize any of those day.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And what do you mean by signs of grooming?
Speaker 6 (27:40):
There are four stages of grooming Nancy, flattery, favoritism, forbidden fruits,
and fear. These predators are selective and intentional. The grooming
process is incremental. I think we need to highlight that
grooming is going on and when it does, it's observable.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
The boy's mother is scrolling through Facebook when she comes
across with Laura Karen's son, who's now five years old.
She shows the photo to her husband, who comments that
the boy looks strikingly similar to their oldest son. Their
daughter's reaction to that comment sparks an interrogation, and she
gives them enough information to immediately call their son with
his mom. He admits he fathered Karen's baby, but he
(28:18):
begs her to let it go because he doesn't want
Karen to get in trouble.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
So let me understand. Dave Matt joining US Crime online
dot Com investigative reporter. Scrolling through Facebook, the mother spots
the baby's picture and says, that is uncanny.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It looks just like our son.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Tell me, that's how the case got cracked open. The
similarity was so uncanny.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
She showed it to her husband, the boy's father, and said,
take a look at this. He looks at it and
posts on Facebook and just says, there's no way this
is my DNA, this is my son's. He went public
with it right then, and that's when everything happened. I mean,
it was amazing how quick it all went up when
he posted that on Facebook.
Speaker 14 (29:05):
Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Dave mac Is it
true that the boys the victim, the eleven year old boy,
allowed all the siblings to move in with the teacher
(29:30):
that started as her babysitting, then occasional sleepovers, to the
point they let the children all move in with the teacher.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yes, we don't know the reason why. We don't know
what happened. That hasn't been public yet, but we do
know that for a period of time, the parents allowed
all three children to live and be under the care
of this so called teacher. She was considered like a
foster parent. I think in New Jersey they have a
(29:58):
different term. They don't use false parent. They call them
a resource family parent or something along those lines. And
yet that's exactly what was happening. They spent years with
this woman in her care without mom and dad. I
don't know where mom and dad were or what was
going on. Yeah, they're referred to as a resource family parent.
That's what a foster parent is called. And that's how
she was treated as this went forward. No idea why yet,
(30:22):
Oh this is.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Like carding your children off, Sure, keep them okay? Is
bringing to mind another many people believe is a beautiful
young teacher. When I look at her, I just say,
mills abub the Devil's hints person. I'm talking about Deborah
lefav listen.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
A fourteen year old Florida boy takes his obviously older
girlfriend to visit his cousin. His aunt, Alarm tells his mother.
The boy admits the woman as his married eighth grade
English teacher, Deborah La Fave. La Fay blames her four
sex encounters with the boy on hyper sexuality due to
bipolar disease. Deboraha Fave's attorney, John Fitzgibbons says in court
to play Debbie into a federal state woman's finite entry.
(31:02):
To place an attractive young woman in that kind of
hell hole is like putting a piece of raw meat
in with the lions. Leaveb is sentenced to just three
years of house arrest and lifetime registration as a sex offender.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So why do you think you got all the attention?
Speaker 10 (31:16):
I don't know, I'll say I Do you think it's
because you're pretty?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
In sex South, I don't know if you call being
sentenced for child sex abuses attention.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
That's my friends at NBC. So let me understand something.
Dave Mack.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
In the case of deb La Fave, the attorney said
to the court, she's too pretty for jail, and she
got house arrest.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
YEP, that's basically what hitry. Attorney was Fitzgibbons. That was
his argument to the court, she's just too pretty. It'll
just be horrible for her, it won't be fair. And
that was gr she's too pretty for prison. We all
talked about it forever because that's the most ridiculous argument
of all time.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
But it worked.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Mark Tate, high profile lawyer joining us out of the
Savannah juristic. And have you ever actually used a similar
argument too delicate, too fragile, too pretty to whatever for prison?
Speaker 9 (32:07):
Nothing like that. Remember Nancy that a lot of my
civil cases focus on priests, boy scout sex abuse cases.
I've even represented the parents of children who got molested
on airplanes. And so while I do criminal defense work,
I don't really see a whole lot of sympathy for
perpetrators like this particular lady we're talking about, because a
(32:27):
predator is a predator, and when we turn them loose,
as will happen if we don't take out that predilection
that they have to hurt people in the future, it's
going to continue. I've seen it with priests, I've seen
it with boy scouts, I've seen it with all different
sorts of professions, including psychiatrists and medical doctors. If they're
not taken out and shown how and not be permitted
(32:51):
in these kinds of situations, they're a problem forever. But
I'll promise you that what we're going to find with
every single one of these people if we dig deeply
into it, and I think doctor Delatory or would agree,
as they always are going to find why it's someone
else's fault. But I think that you know, we're going
to see that common thread through all of these predators,
and you know, the lifetime monitoring that happens, that maybe
(33:13):
what's necessary for the teacher Karan. I am just blown
away by the fact that teachers are able to get
this close to students, and in this particular instance, I
find it interesting that she managed to get through the
foster care system as well.
Speaker 13 (33:28):
As Karen's son gets older, the younger siblings grow even
more suspicious that their brother is the toddler's father. Over text,
the boy's sister confronts him about his relationship with Karen
and point blank asks her brother if the baby is his.
Her brother admits that yes, he is the child's father,
but he convinces his sister not to tell anyone about it,
fearing both him and Karen would get in trouble.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
Early in this full year, parents met with police reporting
their child had been sexually assaulted by mccommon. The now
sixteen year old student said he was twelve years old
at the time, and in seventh The assault happened in
the Mcommon home. He says, sometime in the night, the
teacher woke him and sexually assaulted him. Multiple juveniles have
now come forward claiming mccommon played video games with them online,
(34:11):
befriending them. The contact progressed to communication through social media apps,
where the teacher reportedly sent inappropriate photos and asked for sex.
According to Believe.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Okay, we're talking about Alissa mccommon, another teacher that rapes
the student.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Now catch this after she has the baby.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
This is what she says to the then twelve year
old boy. Listen, okay, joining me. Ron Bateman, former homicide
undercover cop. You can find me, Ron Bateman and books. Ron,
do you hear the teacher time to put the twelve
(34:52):
year old boy on a guilt trip. What if she
wanted to do go get a construction job to support
their baby.
Speaker 7 (34:58):
Exactly like the gentleman said earlier, and he didn't choose
this word. But you know, and you can tell me
as a prosecutor, how many narcissists actually plead guilty take responsibility.
And this last victim, I mean, this last suspect, you're
talking about, same thing, trying to shift the blame on
the victim. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I mean, think about it, Ron Bateman.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
She statutory rapes. What is a twelve year old boy repeatedly,
over and over, gets pregnant, has the baby, and then
calls to say, I'll raise the baby and I'll love
the baby and I'll.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Do it by myself. What does she want the twelve
year old boy to do exactly?
Speaker 7 (35:36):
And if this really gets my goat here, no one's
talking about the eight hundred pound elephant in the room.
And that's the parents who literally abandoned their responsibility as parents.
In my opinion, Like it's like a car, like I'm
done with this car and here you can have it.
And that's what they did with Karen. Here you go, Karen,
as Karen, you raised my children. We're done with them
(35:59):
for now. You know, we need a break. And as
the parents you know, we don't get breaks. You know,
you got to raise these kids forever, you know, at
least until they're adults. And that's not what happened. And
I got a chief super from the Middletown Township Police.
He put out a quote, and I think there should
be a comma and another continuation of this quote. His
quote was, I want to personally assure the parents of Middletown,
(36:22):
of middle Township that we are taught taking every step
possible to ensure the safety of our children. Then it
should be comma and parents you should do the same,
which in this case, to me, was just just a
total abandonment of a parental responsibility.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
You know, I've been wondering how these children end up
living full time with the teacher. It started with her babysitting,
then it ended up this day, a few nice a
week over there, and then ultimately moving in. And I'm
wondering about all the other teachers that we have shown.
How was it that the children, the boy children could
(37:00):
spend so much alone time with the teacher and the
parents never.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Know anything about it.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
To doctor John delatori a renowned psychologists joining us. Doctor Delatory,
I'm just curious if you could explain what grooming is.
So parents that don't know, innocent parents that don't know,
can't recognize grooming when they see it.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
For instance, and my son plays video games, he plays
with a group of his friends, and I have a rule,
and that is you cannot play online with anybody you
don't know in real life, that you haven't met, that
you don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But if I see a.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Teacher sliding into that Fortnite game, oh yeah, oh, Hill's
going to break loose.
Speaker 7 (37:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
So grooming is the process by which someone breaks down
these psychological barriers that would prevent a victimizer from victimizing
that individual. They do this different kinds of ways, you know,
typically flattery, making statements about how smart the person is
or how attractive the person is. Even when they know
that that is a child, they will still make statements
(38:11):
like this. They will still adulter right, they will still
make the child victim somewhat of an adult. They will
kind of in their mind raise the age because then
that puts a spotlight on the child, and children want
to feel appreciated, they want to have a connection, they
want to have that spotlight. So offenders use that for
(38:31):
nefarious purposes, and they'll do it with everybody, especially with
the parents. They have to assuage the fears of the
parents by making it so that you know, they that
they're there as a comfort that the victimizer is there
is a comfort, breaking down those psychological barriers so that
the parent doesn't think that anything bad would be happening.
(38:53):
And that's the trick, that's the scam that offenders are doing,
making people believe that nothing is happening.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
You know or think you know anything about this case.
There is a detainment hearing about to go down. Please
contact the Special Victims Unit six zero nine four sixty
five one one three five repeat six zero nine four
sixty five one one three five are their other child victims.
(39:21):
We remember now an American Hero Officer Michael Maxheimer, Shannon
Hill's p D Arkansas, killed in the line of duty.
Served Shannon Hill's PD three years, leaving behind his daughters Brooklyn,
Dorothy and Jelinda, and life partner Claudia. American hero Michael Maxheimer.
(39:46):
Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, A sickoe purv fifth grade
teacher thirty four has a baby with her boy student
age eleven. Whoa wait, a thirty four year old woman
(00:24):
has a sex relationship. That's called right, that's not a
relationship with an eleven year old boy that is in
her class in the fifth grade. I still remember my
fifth grade teacher, Katie Amerson, one of the best teachers
I ever had. That's my happy memory. This eleven year
old boy fathers a baby with his thirty four year
(00:48):
old fifth grade teacher. Okay, I'm Nancy Grace, this is
Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Fifth grade
teacher Laura Corone sparks a close friendship with the mom
of one of her students, But things on when a
Facebook post reveals a bombshell secret.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Okay, a bombshell secret.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
How is that a secret when you carry a baby
nine months and give birth.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Let's just start at the beginning. Listen.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Laura Karen, twenty six, has been teaching fifth grade in
Middle Township Elementary School for just over two years. When
she begins to develop a close relationship with her male
student's mother. The mom knows her two younger children will
also come through Karen's class and they become fast friends
with me.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
An all star panel to make sense of what we
are learning right now. But first I want to go
straight out to a renowned psychologist, doctor John Delatory, before
I get into the facts.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I think I need a shrink on this.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
A thirty four year old female teacher. A lot of
people want to say has sex with an eleven year
old student. When that teacher is a female, that's statutory rape. Okay,
let's don't say had sex with doctor Delatory. I don't
get it. I don't understand it. A it's a crime,
(02:04):
but B, this didn't just happen one time.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
According to reports, this went on for years.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
And what nobody noticed the teacher was pregnant for Pete's sake.
I don't understand how that can happen under the noses
of the school. I don't understand how that can happen
and nobody figures it out. And the attraction, let's start
with the attraction. I don't understand that.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah, So I think when we're looking at the age
of the victim in this case, we're potentially looking at
a possible diagnosis of pedophilic disorder. Now, with pedophilic disorder,
we're dealing with individuals who will cross sexual boundaries or
offend against children, typically thirteen years or younger, over the
course of six months or longer. It's clear that that's
(02:52):
obviously what happened. I mean, she ended up getting pregnant
by the victim in this case. You're absolutely right, Nancy.
We can't use the word had sex with because that
applies some level of consent. There's no consent when the
victim in the case is eleven years old. It doesn't
matter if it's a boy or a girl. It does
not matter. This woman offended against this child. This child
(03:12):
is a victim.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
This child is going Hey, okay, Delatory, Delatory, Delatory control room.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Can you please show me Karen's photo again?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Okay? I want to want Delatory to look at her.
This is the question I'm saying online. She's young, she's pretty,
she's fit.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Look at her. What there are no men her age?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
She has to pray on an eleven year old boy?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
What is her problem?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And when you say some kind of pedophilic what did
you say a pedophilic what pedophilic disorder?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Pedophilic disorder? This is not a disorder.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Why are you saying that? Because see, I think you're
stirring the pot. You're putting fuel.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
To the flame.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
De Tory, this is a crime. You're acting like it's
an illness, a disorder.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Well, here's the thing is that I'm not a lawyer, right,
I'm not a judge, I'm not a cop. My job
as a psychologist is to explain what exactly it is
that's going on. We as psychologist, especially me, as someone
who's treated sex offenders before, see this as a disorder.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
We see this as.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Something that can be treated but has underlying pathology, underlying
psychological issues. Are there men her age, of course there are?
Are there single men her age, of course there are.
But she convinced herself that she was having a relationship
with this eleven year old. In her mind, she believed
what she was doing was wrong. That's disordered thinking, Nancy.
(04:42):
That's where psychologist comes in.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yes, it's a crime, of course, it's crime.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Is always going to be a crime. But some things
need to be treated, some things need to kind of
understand from a psychological conspective in order to prevent it
from happening again.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Okay, you know what.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It was my fault for asking you the question. I
can't blame you. I blame myself because I ask you why.
And frankly, why doesn't matter. It took me five years
prosecuting violent felonies to stop looking over at the defendant
in the middle of court thinking why would you cause
this wake of pain? Leaving it behind you because of
(05:18):
what you did? Why doesn't matter? And when you say treatment,
I hope she can get treatment behind bars. And I
think I know someone's going to disagree with you. Anna
Sonoda joining me. She is an expert in child sex abuse.
She's a grooming expert, a clinical social worker. She also
counsels convicted sex offenders. I would not want to spend
(05:40):
my day doing that. And she is the author of
Duck Groom. Help me Out, Anna Sonoda, I hear delatory
from his point of view talking about treatment to Hay
with treatment, she needs to be behind bars for a
really long time. I don't know who's going to raise
this baby. She gave birth to the father at eleven
(06:01):
year old. Student Nandy.
Speaker 6 (06:03):
You mentioned before the most important part, which is not
why they do it, it's how they do it. Your audience
needs to recognize that grooming took place, and that predators
often groom the parents or the caregivers of their identified
target in advance or alongside the child they're grooming. In
this case, we see that she had access through her
(06:25):
role as a teacher, and she developed a close relationship
with the child's mother, and this set this young, poor
victim up for failure from the get go.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Ron Bateman joining me.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Former homicide undercover narcotics hes at ronbaatemanbooks dot com, author
of a crime trilogy, Ron Bateman, you know we're hearing
a lot about treatment and counseling for this woman. I'm
not quite sure you and I are on the same page.
Speaker 7 (06:53):
Please respond, Oh my god, we are definitely on the
same page. Treatment. Yeah, like you said, treatment behind bars.
But you know, as a cop, the first thing I
think think of is this the first time? You think
this is the first kid eleven years old, if she's
ever touched, I highly doubt it. This is just the
first one she's been caught on. And you know what
I think about the long term effect that's going to
be on this poor child. Can you see him now? Hey, daddy,
(07:15):
how do you? Mommy me?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (07:16):
She was my fifth grade teacher. Really give me a.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Break, Oh the way you just said that. Guys, the
seminal case are there are a couple of them. Let's start
with possibly the most famous one that brought to the
forefront of our national conscious, the phenomena of a female
sex predator praying on children, specifically their students.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Mary Kay Laturno.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Listen, I did something that I had no right to do,
Laura Lee or legally.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
It was wrong.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
That's Mary Kay Laturno in court after she gives birth
to a baby by her student.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
The that's from our friends at NBC. Listen.
Speaker 8 (08:10):
Steve Laturno finds love letters written by his pregnant wife,
but they aren't to him. The letters are for one
of Mary Kay Laturno's students, a twelve year old boy
she's been tutoring since he was eight. It turns out
Laturno's pregnancy is a result of a sexual relationship with
the boy. Laturno is sentenced to three months in prison
as part of a plea agreement, but after her release,
(08:31):
Laturno's caught having sex with the student again. Laturno's agreement
is revoked and she gives birth to the boy's second child.
Eight months into her seven year sentence, so she gets.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Out on a light sentence because she is an attractive female.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
She gets slap on the wrist.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
She gets out after a few more months, and what
does she do immediately violate the judge's order and she
is caught in a steamed up vehicle in the middle
of the night with the boys student back in the car. Okay, yeah,
her this hit the news in a big way. Joining
me is Mark Tate, a veteran trial lawyer out of
(09:11):
the Savannah jurisdiction with the Tate Law Group. Mark, I mean,
wouldn't you counselor your client listen, can you just stay
away from the little boy you've gotten out in three months?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Stay away from him, go have sex with somebody else.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And I'd like to to point out that I heard
Crime Online dot Com reporter Holden Zapple referring to it
as sex.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's not. It's rape. It is statutory rape. Think about it,
Mark Tate.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And this is what I'm sure you've seen many prosecutors
do with juries.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I'm sure you've done it in civil.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Cases where you say, what if this boy because v
Filao was six feet at least, what if this boy
was an eleven year old girl. Think about it, Think
about that, and sometimes you have to do that.
Speaker 9 (10:04):
I think the gender of the victim really in this instance,
I don't think that it helps. I don't think it
hurts her. She's going to jail. What she did is
indefensible in terms of her guilt. The only way to
deal with what this lady, miss Karan or Karan did,
I think most likely is going to be focusing on
what the sentencing is going to be. And I know
(10:26):
that many people are heavily in favor you included Nancy
in incarceration, and that's going to be a way to
stop or prevent her or even others perhaps from doing it.
But incarcerating this lady for a lengthy period of time
only means she's going to get out and be a hardened,
possibly smarter, more dangerous predator. And so to some extent,
(10:46):
I agree with mister or doctor Delatore that she's going
to have to while in prison, which I certainly deserved here.
She's going to have to get some kind of counseling
or she's going to run out of money to hire lawyers,
and she's not going to have any hope of really,
and we're not going to have who really is a society?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Are you about her recovering?
Speaker 9 (11:10):
Well, we don't want her to get us and go
out and keep doing this.
Speaker 10 (11:12):
We got to stop.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
No, I don't want her to get loose. Period.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You can in the sentence right there, take I don't
want her.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
To get you where a man, she would get twenty
to life hard time.
Speaker 9 (11:22):
She's not going to get twenty to life. She's facing
ten to twenty. So we got to deal with not
what Nancy Grace's justice is. We got to deal with
what's going to happen in New Jersey. And she's going
to eventually be free, and when we let her go,
we need.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
To make sure she's because it's happening in New Jersey.
Just because it's happening, just because it's being done, doesn't
mean it should be done. Ron Bateman, the disparity between
female and male sentences in sex crimes is astonishing. And
did you just hear him Mark Tate talking about getting
(11:57):
her treatment tree, Yeah.
Speaker 7 (12:01):
You know it's and he's right. She is going to
get out and it's not going to be a maximum
sentence is twenty okay? And she's going to get good time.
Hopefully she'll get treatment inside, but she's going to have
to be monitored so closely like a dog in a cage,
to keep her from doing this again.
Speaker 10 (12:19):
It began with one or two nights a week. What
started as an innocent enough sleepover at teacher Laura Karen's
home soon spiraled into every parents for snightmare?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Okay, wait a minute, a sleepover? Wait?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we're learning right now. In addition to Mark Tate,
doctor John de la Torre, Ron Bateman, and a Sonoda
joining me now, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave
Matt So, Dave matt, I want you to explain to me.
So the parents let the children sleep over at the
(12:53):
teacher's house.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Apparently, n Nancy, This is ultimately a grooming thing that
took place. This fifth grade teach began her relationship with
the mother. That's how she developed because she knew that
the mom has three children and all three will be
coming through her class as a fifth grade teacher, So
she gets the oldest one, and that's where she begins
the relationship with the mom, knowing and mom knowing that
(13:15):
she's going to be my fifth grade teacher for my
two other children. They begin that relationship, and all of
a sudden, the fifth grade teacher begins babysitting. Hey, it's convenient.
We know her, we trust her, so she makes a
great babysitter. And that's where it all started.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Okay, Dave Matt, isn't it true that you have a son?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yes, ma'am, Okay, I would not allow it.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Do you remember when he was Do you remember when
he was eleven?
Speaker 6 (13:39):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Can I tell you something. I had the greatest fifth
grade teacher. She wasn't the only one at our public
school out in the middle of rural bib County, doctor
John H. Hurd Elementary School, Miss Amison, and of course
my kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, fifth grade
(14:02):
and more teachers all sat behind our family at the
Liberty United Methist Church on Sunday mornings too.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
All right. It was a very close knit Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
They were sitting right there behind me on Sunday mornings
with my family. That said, I get it because knowing
those teachers, Dave mac and how wonderful they were. They
taught not only me, my sister and my brother, but
my mother. Okay, they taught my mother in elementary school.
(14:33):
We knew them forever. And yes, yes, I could see
them babysitting for us and not thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Twice, So I get it. But you were talking about the.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Grooming process, how the grooming started with the mother. The
teacher got to be friends with the mother, right.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Right, That's exactly what happened. Okay, hold on, I'm glad
you told me that.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Wait a second, because I want to take that one
tidbit and go out to Annasinota joining us author of
Duck Duck Groom, Anna Sonoda.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I get that part.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I get it because if my mom had hired a babysitter,
which we couldn't have because we couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
But that's it.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
If we had a babysitter, I could see any of
the teachers I just referred to first, second, third, fourth, fifth,
and beyond as being the babysitter.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
They were that trusted and that close to our family.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
You're absolutely right. Over ninety percent of the time the
victims are victimized by someone known and trusted, not just
to the child themselves, but to the caregivers. And this
case highlights the fact that when predators are positioned in
environments close to minors with access in space, predators will
take advantage of that every time. Here you have a
(15:47):
teacher who's well positioned in the school system. She has
gained respect. She started this job in twenty fourteen, began
a relationship with the child and the child's mother, and
exploited and charged upon that trust in order to get
what she wanted, which was a sexual abuse situation with
(16:07):
the child. This is an appalling abusive power and every
listener needs to recognize that they are vulnerable as the
adult when it comes to protecting their child from potential predators,
even in trusting environments such as school.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Guys, we were talking about a thirty four year old
teacher giving birth to the baby of an eleven year
old fifth grade student. The teacher has started babysitting for
the family and that graduated into sleepovers of the siblings.
(16:43):
When they would be babysat by this teacher could spend
the night listen.
Speaker 8 (16:46):
The younger siblings noticed strange behavior from Karen and their
eleven year old brother, and in the morning, the eldest
brother's bed is usually empty. His siblings typically find him
on the first floor, coming from Karen's bedroom. The younger
siblings also frequently catch Karen going into the bathroom while
their brother showers, then exiting with him, also wet and
wearing a towel.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Okay, so let me understand Dave Matt joining us klim
online dot com. Not only the eleven year old boy,
but the siblings would all stit spend the night occasionally
with the fifth grade teacher.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
And you know, think about it, Nancy, wouldn't that La
Just it would make you not worry as much because
all three of my kids are over there. They're all safe,
they're with their teacher. But she played it out right
in front of them. The kids knew something was going on.
She didn't hide it. I mean, David, all go to
bed upstairs.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Up, Wait a minute, Dave Matt isn't the eleven year
old boy. Is he the oldest of the three siblings, Yes,
he is. Okay, So a lot of times you see
things as a child and you don't understand that they're wrong. Right,
So the younger siblings who are under eleven, may have
seen the teacher going in and out of the bathroom
when the eleven year old was in the bathroom and
(17:56):
didn't realize anything was wrong too, Doctor John Dell Tori
joining me, renounced psychologist, You may first ask, well, why
didn't they tell their parents?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
They may not have realized there was anything to tell parents.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah, you're exactly right, Nancy. What they know is that
something is different, but they don't know something is wrong.
And depending on how their parents presented sexual behaviors and
what is bad touch and what is good touch, what
authority is, what trust is depending on that, they may
not be sophisticated enough to know that their brother is
(18:30):
being abused, and the brother doesn't know any different, right,
The oldest of them just thinks that he's getting all
of this special attention. She wants everybody to believe that
everything is happening is okay, that nothing is going wrong.
By not calling attention to stuff, by making sure everybody's there,
all the children are there together, she's kind of making
sure that no suspicion is brought upon her, that she's
(18:52):
actually engaging in criminal acts.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (19:07):
South Jersey fifth grade teacher Laura Karen is accused of
sexually abusing her student for four years but the horrors
don't stop. There. Authorities alleged the thirteen year old victim
is the father of Karen's five year old son.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, there's your evidence. All you need is a DNA
test on the baby boy. And let me just tell you,
the family noticed first, without any DNA test, that the
little baby looked like the boy had the eleven year
old boy had spit him out. He'll just like the
eleven year old boy. The similarity was overwhelming. Guys, in
(19:43):
our digital age, the possibility for teachers to pray on
their students is has skyrocketed exponentially. I'm talking about a teacher,
Pamela Rogers, who raped her student.
Speaker 11 (20:02):
Listen, I'm betraying my profession and then sent them that
I'm truly ashamed of. Can I betray the family and
the victim.
Speaker 12 (20:13):
Pamela Rogers, a pe teacher and coach at Centertown Elementary,
happens to have a close friend's thirteen year old son
in her class. When Rogers falls between places, the mom
allows Rogers to stay with her for a few months.
During the stay, she finds her son in bed with Rogers.
Rogers spends nine months in jail and on her release,
strikes up her relationship with the boy again, sending him
(20:35):
provocative and even nude photos and videos using her father's
cell phone.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh my stars, it's Mary Kayla Turno all over again.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
The mom gives Pamela.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Rogers a place to crash for a few weeks, finds
Pamela Rogers, the teacher in bed with her son. Pamela
Rogers goes to jail, and what does she do The
minute she gets out after a few months out out
behind bars, she's back at it, praying on a little boy.
Now it doesn't just in there. You heard that Pamela
(21:08):
Rodgers would send videos.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Look at this video. Brace yourself. This is okay.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Here she's slinking up the camera. Oh, this is too
A little boy, a thirteen just turned thirteen year old
little boy. And trust me, I've cut this video. I
have cut a lot of it out because she turns
around and gives a serious booty shot show after this. Okay,
control room seen enough of Pamela Rogers shimmying up the
(21:37):
camera joining me in a sonoda, Child sex abuse and
grooming expert, author of Duck Duck Groom, Anna, did you
see the video? How can the parents know? Unless they
come through the child's phone every night that the teacher,
of all people is sending these videos.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Nancy.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
The thing about predators is that they are everywhere, but
they're not everyone, and they stand out in their strange behavior.
You know, we used to hear the term stranger danger.
I want your audience to remember strange behavior. These teachers
are clear examples of distorted, sick women who are showing
and displaying repeatedly strange behavior after strange behavior. And in
(22:22):
this situation, you have a keen audience because you have
a classroom of vulnerable students, and predators are selective. They
can select the families and the children to groom in
order to be successful in their abuse. And these cases
are devastating for the male victims.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You know, Dolatory, this teacher, she looks like she should
be on a stripper pole at the Gold Club. Whatever,
Doctor DELATORI she made that video with a little boy
in mind. It's not why she was putting it on
her OnlyFans website for grown men. That was made specifically
for a little boy. At what point, and I'm going
(23:01):
to follow up with criminal defense attorney Mark Tate, at
what point when you're doing something wrong. Do you not go, hey,
this is wrong?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Do criminals not?
Speaker 1 (23:13):
When I even tell a lie I feel hot all over.
I'm convinced I'm going to be caught because I always am.
I feel bad about it. Does that not kick in
with criminals? I mean, she's making this video and it's
specifically expressly made to send a little boy who's just
turned thirteen. At what point do you go, hey, I
(23:34):
should probably put some clothes on and not send this video.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
They did it early, very early on, potentially even before
they even decided to engage in a contact abuse right
where they actually decided to touch the victim. But that
was overridden right by the compulsion to want to abuse
the victim. It was overridden by the justifications and rationalizations
that they tell themselves that they tell other people.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
We see all these videos of them, you know, with
Mary Kayla Turno and Pamela Rogers apologizing while they're in court.
They're only sorry that they got If they were actually sorry,
then they never would have done it in the beginning.
So everything is about their own compulsion in satisfying their
own needs that it overrides the guilty feelings that every
other one of us who wouldn't do this, would be experiencing.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
In a sonoda.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It seems to me we're talking a lot tonight about
treatment and making the rapist get better.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I mean, have I lost my mind? What about the boy?
Speaker 6 (24:32):
You haven't lost your mind, Nancy. I think our focus
needs to be on this young victim, not to mention
he is a victim here, but also this five year
old baby who was born out of a rape. Now
this is going to be something that he will have
to come to terms with as he grows and develops.
You've got two very severely damaged young boys in this situation,
(24:57):
and it can be a lifelong recovery for victims and
survivors of child sexual abuse. But it certainly improved outcomes
when there are consequences for predators. And too often with
female offenders, we just write it off and we say, oh,
she's not that harmful, she's not that much of a
concern to society, and.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
In factful, wait a minute, Anna a sonoda, I think
that there are other victims.
Speaker 13 (25:23):
Listen to this, Anna, Well, Karen and the children watch
TV before bed. Karen always sits with the eldest, eleven
year old boy in a reclining chair. The two younger
children usually fall asleep while watching a movie, but one evening,
the middle brother, eight, wakes up and notices Karen and
his brother shifting around in the reclining chair. The two
are covered by a blanket, but he can tell Karen's
(25:44):
hand is moving under the blanket on his brother's genitals.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Anna, Sinota, you were mentioning victims. What about the siblings
of this boy that were there when all of this
was happening. Anna, could you describe how this affects a child,
even a boy, for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
Anna, I think one of the ways that we can
improve outcomes is from a acknowledging that when female predators
abuse young male victims, it is the exact same damage
as if the genders were reversed. What we have in
society is allowing female predators to quote unquote educate young
(26:27):
boys about sex and intimacy, and that fance does not
facilitate recovery and growth for victims. First of all, we
need to be glad that in this case it was
even reported. We had to wait for a baby to
turn five before we even acknowledge that this abuse was
(26:48):
going on. What we have to keep in mind is
that males who are victimized in their youth rarely reported.
Female predators rarely get charged or convicted. If they are convicted,
they get reduced sentences at enormous rates, and it perverses
sexual relationships for the adult survivors as they go through
(27:11):
their relationships. So this is an enormous problem that we
all must acknowledge and to even take that first step
of awareness that females can be predators. We often think
of females as the safe gender, the safe sex. Well,
these cases, Nancy highlight the fact that parents need to
(27:32):
be on guard for signs of grooming and then if
they recognize any of those day.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And what do you mean by signs of grooming?
Speaker 6 (27:40):
There are four stages of grooming Nancy, flattery, favoritism, forbidden fruits,
and fear. These predators are selective and intentional. The grooming
process is incremental. I think we need to highlight that
grooming is going on and when it does, it's observable.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
The boy's mother is scrolling through Facebook when she comes
across with Laura Karen's son, who's now five years old.
She shows the photo to her husband, who comments that
the boy looks strikingly similar to their oldest son. Their
daughter's reaction to that comment sparks an interrogation, and she
gives them enough information to immediately call their son with
his mom. He admits he fathered Karen's baby, but he
(28:18):
begs her to let it go because he doesn't want
Karen to get in trouble.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
So let me understand. Dave Matt joining US Crime online
dot Com investigative reporter. Scrolling through Facebook, the mother spots
the baby's picture and says, that is uncanny.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It looks just like our son.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Tell me, that's how the case got cracked open. The
similarity was so uncanny.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
She showed it to her husband, the boy's father, and said,
take a look at this. He looks at it and
posts on Facebook and just says, there's no way this
is my DNA, this is my son's. He went public
with it right then, and that's when everything happened. I mean,
it was amazing how quick it all went up when
he posted that on Facebook.
Speaker 14 (29:05):
Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Dave mac Is it
true that the boys the victim, the eleven year old boy,
allowed all the siblings to move in with the teacher
(29:30):
that started as her babysitting, then occasional sleepovers, to the
point they let the children all move in with the teacher.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yes, we don't know the reason why. We don't know
what happened. That hasn't been public yet, but we do
know that for a period of time, the parents allowed
all three children to live and be under the care
of this so called teacher. She was considered like a
foster parent. I think in New Jersey they have a
(29:58):
different term. They don't use false parent. They call them
a resource family parent or something along those lines. And
yet that's exactly what was happening. They spent years with
this woman in her care without mom and dad. I
don't know where mom and dad were or what was
going on. Yeah, they're referred to as a resource family parent.
That's what a foster parent is called. And that's how
she was treated as this went forward. No idea why yet,
(30:22):
Oh this is.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Like carding your children off, Sure, keep them okay? Is
bringing to mind another many people believe is a beautiful
young teacher. When I look at her, I just say,
mills abub the Devil's hints person. I'm talking about Deborah
lefav listen.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
A fourteen year old Florida boy takes his obviously older
girlfriend to visit his cousin. His aunt, Alarm tells his mother.
The boy admits the woman as his married eighth grade
English teacher, Deborah La Fave. La Fay blames her four
sex encounters with the boy on hyper sexuality due to
bipolar disease. Deboraha Fave's attorney, John Fitzgibbons says in court
to play Debbie into a federal state woman's finite entry.
(31:02):
To place an attractive young woman in that kind of
hell hole is like putting a piece of raw meat
in with the lions. Leaveb is sentenced to just three
years of house arrest and lifetime registration as a sex offender.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So why do you think you got all the attention?
Speaker 10 (31:16):
I don't know, I'll say I Do you think it's
because you're pretty?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
In sex South, I don't know if you call being
sentenced for child sex abuses attention.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
That's my friends at NBC. So let me understand something.
Dave Mack.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
In the case of deb La Fave, the attorney said
to the court, she's too pretty for jail, and she
got house arrest.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
YEP, that's basically what hitry. Attorney was Fitzgibbons. That was
his argument to the court, she's just too pretty. It'll
just be horrible for her, it won't be fair. And
that was gr she's too pretty for prison. We all
talked about it forever because that's the most ridiculous argument
of all time.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
But it worked.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Mark Tate, high profile lawyer joining us out of the
Savannah juristic. And have you ever actually used a similar
argument too delicate, too fragile, too pretty to whatever for prison?
Speaker 9 (32:07):
Nothing like that. Remember Nancy that a lot of my
civil cases focus on priests, boy scout sex abuse cases.
I've even represented the parents of children who got molested
on airplanes. And so while I do criminal defense work,
I don't really see a whole lot of sympathy for
perpetrators like this particular lady we're talking about, because a
(32:27):
predator is a predator, and when we turn them loose,
as will happen if we don't take out that predilection
that they have to hurt people in the future, it's
going to continue. I've seen it with priests, I've seen
it with boy scouts, I've seen it with all different
sorts of professions, including psychiatrists and medical doctors. If they're
not taken out and shown how and not be permitted
(32:51):
in these kinds of situations, they're a problem forever. But
I'll promise you that what we're going to find with
every single one of these people if we dig deeply
into it, and I think doctor Delatory or would agree,
as they always are going to find why it's someone
else's fault. But I think that you know, we're going
to see that common thread through all of these predators,
and you know, the lifetime monitoring that happens, that maybe
(33:13):
what's necessary for the teacher Karan. I am just blown
away by the fact that teachers are able to get
this close to students, and in this particular instance, I
find it interesting that she managed to get through the
foster care system as well.
Speaker 13 (33:28):
As Karen's son gets older, the younger siblings grow even
more suspicious that their brother is the toddler's father. Over text,
the boy's sister confronts him about his relationship with Karen
and point blank asks her brother if the baby is his.
Her brother admits that yes, he is the child's father,
but he convinces his sister not to tell anyone about it,
fearing both him and Karen would get in trouble.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
Early in this full year, parents met with police reporting
their child had been sexually assaulted by mccommon. The now
sixteen year old student said he was twelve years old
at the time, and in seventh The assault happened in
the Mcommon home. He says, sometime in the night, the
teacher woke him and sexually assaulted him. Multiple juveniles have
now come forward claiming mccommon played video games with them online,
(34:11):
befriending them. The contact progressed to communication through social media apps,
where the teacher reportedly sent inappropriate photos and asked for sex.
According to Believe.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Okay, we're talking about Alissa mccommon, another teacher that rapes
the student.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Now catch this after she has the baby.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
This is what she says to the then twelve year
old boy. Listen, okay, joining me. Ron Bateman, former homicide
undercover cop. You can find me, Ron Bateman and books. Ron,
do you hear the teacher time to put the twelve
(34:52):
year old boy on a guilt trip. What if she
wanted to do go get a construction job to support
their baby.
Speaker 7 (34:58):
Exactly like the gentleman said earlier, and he didn't choose
this word. But you know, and you can tell me
as a prosecutor, how many narcissists actually plead guilty take responsibility.
And this last victim, I mean, this last suspect, you're
talking about, same thing, trying to shift the blame on
the victim. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I mean, think about it, Ron Bateman.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
She statutory rapes. What is a twelve year old boy repeatedly,
over and over, gets pregnant, has the baby, and then
calls to say, I'll raise the baby and I'll love
the baby and I'll.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Do it by myself. What does she want the twelve
year old boy to do exactly?
Speaker 7 (35:36):
And if this really gets my goat here, no one's
talking about the eight hundred pound elephant in the room.
And that's the parents who literally abandoned their responsibility as parents.
In my opinion, Like it's like a car, like I'm
done with this car and here you can have it.
And that's what they did with Karen. Here you go, Karen,
as Karen, you raised my children. We're done with them
(35:59):
for now. You know, we need a break. And as
the parents you know, we don't get breaks. You know,
you got to raise these kids forever, you know, at
least until they're adults. And that's not what happened. And
I got a chief super from the Middletown Township Police.
He put out a quote, and I think there should
be a comma and another continuation of this quote. His
quote was, I want to personally assure the parents of Middletown,
(36:22):
of middle Township that we are taught taking every step
possible to ensure the safety of our children. Then it
should be comma and parents you should do the same,
which in this case, to me, was just just a
total abandonment of a parental responsibility.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
You know, I've been wondering how these children end up
living full time with the teacher. It started with her babysitting,
then it ended up this day, a few nice a
week over there, and then ultimately moving in. And I'm
wondering about all the other teachers that we have shown.
How was it that the children, the boy children could
(37:00):
spend so much alone time with the teacher and the
parents never.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Know anything about it.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
To doctor John delatori a renowned psychologists joining us. Doctor Delatory,
I'm just curious if you could explain what grooming is.
So parents that don't know, innocent parents that don't know,
can't recognize grooming when they see it.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
For instance, and my son plays video games, he plays
with a group of his friends, and I have a rule,
and that is you cannot play online with anybody you
don't know in real life, that you haven't met, that
you don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But if I see a.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Teacher sliding into that Fortnite game, oh yeah, oh, Hill's
going to break loose.
Speaker 7 (37:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
So grooming is the process by which someone breaks down
these psychological barriers that would prevent a victimizer from victimizing
that individual. They do this different kinds of ways, you know,
typically flattery, making statements about how smart the person is
or how attractive the person is. Even when they know
that that is a child, they will still make statements
(38:11):
like this. They will still adulter right, they will still
make the child victim somewhat of an adult. They will
kind of in their mind raise the age because then
that puts a spotlight on the child, and children want
to feel appreciated, they want to have a connection, they
want to have that spotlight. So offenders use that for
(38:31):
nefarious purposes, and they'll do it with everybody, especially with
the parents. They have to assuage the fears of the
parents by making it so that you know, they that
they're there as a comfort that the victimizer is there
is a comfort, breaking down those psychological barriers so that
the parent doesn't think that anything bad would be happening.
(38:53):
And that's the trick, that's the scam that offenders are doing,
making people believe that nothing is happening.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
You know or think you know anything about this case.
There is a detainment hearing about to go down. Please
contact the Special Victims Unit six zero nine four sixty
five one one three five repeat six zero nine four
sixty five one one three five are their other child victims.
(39:21):
We remember now an American Hero Officer Michael Maxheimer, Shannon
Hill's p D Arkansas, killed in the line of duty.
Served Shannon Hill's PD three years, leaving behind his daughters Brooklyn,
Dorothy and Jelinda, and life partner Claudia. American hero Michael Maxheimer.
(39:46):
Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.