Jennifer Dulos and Fotis Dulos marry in 2004.
Thirteen years later, the marriage fails, and the couple file for divorce. The circumstances are anything but amiable. Hundreds of motions are filed during the two-year proceedings.
In 2017, Jennifer Dulos files for an emergency order for full custody of their five children. She alleges that her husband's behavior is "irrational, unsafe, bullying, threatening and controlling. She says she is afraid for not only her safety but the physical and emotional well-being of the children.
Moving forward to the Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos drops her children off at school near her New Canaan Connecticut home. She had an 11 a.m. appointment that morning, which she missed. No one hears from her for 10 hours.
That night, Jennifer Dulos is reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins.
When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulos’ home, blood stains were visible not only on the garage floor but garbage cans and a car parked in the garage. The car in the garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known to drive. Police initiated a search for her vehicle.
A little over an hour later and just three miles from the home, officers find the abandoned Suburban by Waveny Park. It contains blood evidence too.
Back at the home, investigators determine that someone tried to clean the concrete floor. Officers canvas the park, hand out fliers, use canines, and do aerial searches. And most dramatically, perform video searches of local CCTV cameras.
Surveillance cameras capture a man appearing to be Fotis Dulos disposing of garbage bags in as many as 30 receptacles in the area. A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of the man's car.
Police recover clothes and household items with Jennifer Dulos' blood on it, in trash cans around Hartford. Specifically, the bags contained women’s clothing, plastic zip-ties, and a white T-shirt; all of the items were stained.
Police also find a stained utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as a kitchen sponge.
The woman in the vehicle with Fotis Dulos is identified as his live-in girlfriend Michelle Troconis. Police search warrants say Michelle Troconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as Fotis Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured.
She confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she denies knowing what was in them.
Fotis Dulos and Troconis, 44, are arrested, and charged with tampering with or fabricating physical evidence and hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Mark Sherman - Managing Partner of Mark Sherman Law,
- Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski -Forensic Psychologist, Author: "Darksides;" YouTube: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski
- Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” Twitter: @rdreek
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School
- Jeff Gentry – Forensics-Crime Scene Investigator, Certified bloodstain pattern analyst and death investigator, fmr. toxicology lab analyst; Author: “A Visual Guide to Bloodstain Pattern Analysis: Bloodstain Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene Investigators;” TikTok: @jeffreygentryBPA, Facebook: Jeff Gentry Bloodstain Pattern Analyst
- Jen Smith - Chief Reporter for DailyMail.com; Twitter: @jen_e_smith
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yes, I knew better up here in my head, but
I was one of the few that thought there was
a chance, a slim chance, a tiny chance, a sliver
of a chance, that missing Connecticut mom of five Jennifer
Dulos could still be alive. And then her conniving husband,
(00:38):
Photus Dulos and his mistress Michelle Chraconis had to just
blow it all up from me. When I found out
the things that they were caught on camera disposing of
in various locations all over town were bloody clothing, rags, items.
(00:58):
Then I knew. I still did want to know, but
I knew that this mom is dead. Have you found
your body? H L n O. But nobody no case,
that is absolutely not true. The mistress treconis heading to
(01:21):
trial right now. I mean, I see Greece. This is
Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime
Stories and on Serious XM one eleven, just to jog
your memory. Not that you legal eagles. You know, Mark
Sherman joining me, high profile lawyer and don't get mad Mark,
but I'm going to introduce you as the son of
(01:43):
Mickey Sherman, another great trial lawyer and friend this is
your jurisdiction in court. We try to put it nicely,
say your honor, may I refreshed the witnesses recollection. That's
a legal term of art, right, Mark Sherman.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Correct, correct, Well, look, I'm here in the courthouse. It's
a new here, Nancy. There's fifty cameras and the evidence
is getting started today. They expected to go about seven weeks.
You know, everyone's really anxious to.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Hear how the state's going to start off.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I can't wait, but I can tell how we're going
to start off by refreshing everyone's recollection. Take a listen.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
Location of your emergency. Yeah, I'm worried about my wife
and kids because they they left to go to New
York and I haven't been able to get intest with Okay,
they were going to New York.
Speaker 6 (02:35):
What's the license late on the car?
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Excuse me?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
What's the license plate on the car?
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Uh? I you?
Speaker 6 (02:45):
Okay, Well, what's who's the car registered to?
Speaker 5 (02:48):
It's registering to my wife's name, Jennifer Dulos. The last
thing for me, Dulos d u l o els. But
long walls not answering. They're not answering their cellphold I've
been texting and I see that the takes I've been
delivered responding to me.
Speaker 7 (03:08):
Okay, so you have like the fine your iPhone app
or anything like that.
Speaker 8 (03:16):
Thanks?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Okay, what's your name?
Speaker 8 (03:18):
Thanks?
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Photyshon pis doesn't.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Know about find my iPhone? Now? Okay, maybe someone like
my mom who lives with us. She has an iPhone.
She doesn't know about finding an iPhone, but she's ninety two.
How can you not know about find my iPhone? You
know many cases have been solved with find my iPhone? Now,
what happened that day? It was the Friday before Memorial Day.
(03:47):
Take a listen to this.
Speaker 9 (03:48):
The Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos dropped her children
off at school near her Canon, Connecticut home. She had
an eleven am appointment which she missed. No one hears
from her for ten hours. That night, Jennifer Dulo's is
reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
With me and All Star panel. You've already met high
profile lawyer Mark Sherman joining us from the courthouse. But
first of I now want to go to Jen Smith,
the chief investigative reporter for dailymail dot Com, who has
also been covering the case from the get go. It's
nw Canaan, Connecticut, and I've driven through New Canaan, Connecticut
(04:26):
several many times, and it's about an hour ten hour
fifteen maybe ish from Manhattan. Long story short, I drove
through because it was too expensive for me to even
breathe the air. There a lot of rich people. You
ever seen New Canaan. I mean every house looks like
(04:47):
a mansion. And that is where jen Smith, Jennifer and
Potus Dulos lived with their five children.
Speaker 6 (04:55):
Correct, Yeah, pretty much Nancia. As you see, this is
where the wealthy families of Manhattan go when they want
to get a bit of fresh air, very expensive fresh air.
And I send their kids to these prestigious schools up
in the Connecticut suburbs. So Jennifer and photiuse Doulos really
fit the description of an incredibly privileged family. She herself
(05:17):
comes from money. Her own father was a kind of
financial wizard, very well known in Wall Street and Foties
Dolos was a property developer at the time, he got
some help from his wife's generous and wealthy family.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Wait right, right, right, you know that's certainly putting perfume
on the pig jenn Smith. I don't know if they
have that phrase over in the UK, but she perfume
on the pig. Jennifer Dulos father worked his rearan off
and was brilliant financially. He worked, he made the money,
(06:00):
not photos do listener, you said something about property development.
He ran a construction company. My uncle built houses out
in the mud and the dirt and rain, building houses.
But you said he got help. That's where the perfume
on the pig comes in. He got what over a
million dollars He got Jennifer's father to fork over money
(06:25):
to keep his construction business afloat. Isn't that truth?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 6 (06:30):
Help is probably an understatement. Jennifer's father really helped them.
I think will her right. He was looking after his daughter,
I suppose, but he really bankrolled this construction company. Photis
described as pulperty development. Obviously trying to put covering on
his own take there. And yeah, Jennifer's father really helped
(06:53):
him stay afload for years while he was building property
completely various projects up in that ukn and the unsurrending areas.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
In joining me is behavior expert former FBI Special Agent,
chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and
author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual
for Brek behavior prediction. So, Robin, have you ever heard
of routine evidence?
Speaker 10 (07:25):
Yeah, because it really comes into someone's life bark and
their baseline of their normal behavior that they're exhibit every day,
no doubt.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, it's like this to Mark Sherman, joining us, managing
partner of the Mark Sherman Law Firm. Mark. For instance,
if Jackie Howard was not in this studio an hour
before I come in here viciously complaining about something but
getting everything ready, that would be completely opposite of her routine.
(07:58):
She's always here and it's always ready. So if I
came down here and plopped into the chair and there
was no Jackie right there with me, I would know
she was either dead or in the hospital. Okay, that
is routine evidence. She has a routine. And Jennifer Dulos
(08:19):
had a routine. She's the mother of five. She does
pick up and drop off every day, and so for
her to go missing for ten hours and not pick
up the phone, that's the problem. Mark Sherman.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the defendant killed her,
but honestly, but I agree with you, it gets in
as long as the state can get first, firsthand evidence
of that routine, it can't just be speculation. It's got
to be someone with the rest knowledge, firsthand knowledge of
that routine.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You know what you just did, Mark Sherman, and I'm
so happy you did it. Joining me is doctor Jeff Klshewsky,
forensic psychologist, author of Dark Side. Doctor Gilshoefski, thank you
for being with us. Did you hear what Sherman just did?
And that's what the jury's going to do? He said, well,
wait a minute, just because she's been gone ten hours,
that doesn't mean the husband did it. See that's the
(09:12):
first thing that went to his mind. Doctor Jeff, Well,
I thank you.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
This really speaks to the idea when you talk about
routine evidence and understanding that this routine has been disrupted,
and who would have knowledge of this person's routine and
it could be her ex housband knowing what time the
children will be dropped off at school, what times she
typically will go back. And oftentimes when someone's planning out
(09:36):
of crime, they're obviously going to try to learn the
person's routine, to know when they can sort of deploy
to commit that crime.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
You're so right now. I love the way that Mark Sherman's.
My mind immediately went with that doesn't mean the husband
did it. Me thinks that death protests too much. Mark Sherman, Hey,
Mark is joining us at the courthouse. Mark, you said
there's fifty cameras. What does everybody want to get a
look at Photosdulos Mistress Michelle Treconis.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You know, Nancy, it's a town of twenty thousand people,
it's a tony town. It's a compelling story that there's
so many moving pieces here that just make this case compelling,
and it's really grabbing the attention of a lot of
people around the country.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Well, I guess so because everybody wants justice. Why are
we so concerned because massive amounts of blood turn up?
And Jennifer Duloss Garage time.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Jenna Smith's joining me, chief investigative reporter dealilymail dot com.
Jen who exactly I just heard photus Delos blah blah blah.
Is he the first one that called nine one one
about her disappearance?
Speaker 6 (10:56):
No, he's not actually so on the day of Jennifer
look as appearance. By this time, Jennifer and Sochi's were
not living together. They were in the midst of a
really acrimonious divorce and custody battle. The first people who
alerted the authorities to the fact that she had vanished
were her friends. They were concerned about the fact that
(11:17):
on this date she had missed several appointments that she
was due to a tent after dropping off the kids.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
What were the appointments, Jim Smith.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
You know, I'm not sure if they were anything super
out of the ordinary. We're talking about routine things. She
wasn't really working at the time, and so it was
things along the lines of like Gener's appointment.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Okay, hold on, hold on, little girl, jenn Smith, do
you have children?
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I do not.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Okay, Well, hopefully one day you'll have that joy that
I have now. Of course, before I had children, I
hate it when people said that. But now that I
have children, I found out I was never happy. I
just thought I was happy. My point, I'm leading up
to jen Smith, two children, I might exulted. By the
end of the day, I fall asleep sitting in a chair,
(12:03):
straight up I'm like, whoa, what happened? This woman is
working trust me in the home. But you're right, it
wasn't like showing up at the office. For all I
note was me, Yeah, it could have been a PTA meeting,
It could have been a cookie se I don't know
what it was. But they were onto it.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
She was not. She wasn't due to attend business meeting.
But of course a mother of five is a very
busy woman, working a lot harder than you know many
people who are in an office all day. Of course,
that's not what I meant by any stretch of the imagination.
But these were you know, what's relevant here is that
these are a piecemeal little thing.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Oh hey, I know what they are. I've got it
in my notes right here. Jen. And also you know
she was a writer. She did write for Patch dot com. Uh.
And she was seen returning home at eight oh five
am on a neighbor security camera. But it was two
doctor's appointments in New York City, that's what she missed.
(13:02):
I thought it was doctor's appointments. And in my notes,
I've got that the nanny, Lauren Almeda and another friend,
they were the ones to first report her missing. Okay,
so that's the answer to that. All right, let's get
to the blood. Take a listen to crime Onlines Dave Max.
Speaker 7 (13:28):
When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulo's home, bloodstains are visible
not only on the garage floor, but garbage cans and
a car parked in the garage. The car in the
garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known
to drive. Police initiate a search for her vehicle. A
little over an hour later, in just three miles from
the home, officers find the abandoned suburban by Waveny Park.
It contains blood evidence too. Back at the home, investigators
(13:51):
determined someone had tried to clean the concrete floor.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay. I love nothing better than talking about blood evidence
and joining me in a dish into A renowned medical examiner,
Doctor Kendall Crowns is Jeff Gentry. Jeff is a forensic
certified Bloodstained Pattern Analyst and an ab MDI what is
(14:15):
that American Board of Medico Legal Death Investigators. He's author
of A Visual Guide to Bloodstained Pattern Analysis. What could
be better than that book? A Visual Guide to Bloodstained
Pattern Analysis. Bloodstained Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene investigators.
(14:40):
And that's not all. He couldn't stop himself. He's also
the author of death investigation information to obtain during a
forensic death investigation. I know what I'm doing tonight, Jeff Gentry,
thank you for being with us. Then I'm going to
follow up and see how what doctor Kendall Crown's what
his analysis is as an overlay if he agrees or
(15:03):
disagrees with you, Jeff Gentry. So we're having a little
pop quiz, Jeff Gentry, So he is going to be
your teacher. He's going to grave your answer. They say
that that someone had tried to clean up the cement floor,
how could they tell that?
Speaker 11 (15:22):
So first what I read was that there was blood spatter.
Blood spatter is indicative of trauma or force being applied
to blood. So right away that tells you that something
really bad happened there, that there was some kind of
a violent act. There was also blood transfers, meaning that
these bloodstains were transferred to different locations throughout the garage.
(15:44):
So that's also indicative of a struggle or somebody was
fighting back after they were bleeding. Then on top of
all of that, you've got multiple areas of cleanup. So
the way that they can tell that blood has been
cleaned up is it appears diluted or altered. We all
know what normal blood looks like. It's red, it's kind
of brownish. But then when you apply either chemicals or
(16:07):
water to it, it's going to change the appearance. So
that's how you can tell that blood has been cleaned
up or altered. So it's actually quite easy if you
have experience in seeing blood stains on a regular basis
and doing the analysis. But it can really tell you
a lot. It can tell you the events that transpired
during a violent act or a bloody crime scene, and
(16:29):
I use it all the time in my scenes.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Jeff Gentry, another thing that I like about you, and
you remind me a great deal of doctor Crown's. You're
so humble and modest. No, it's not quote really easy.
Most people would walk in and see absolutely nothing. You, however,
and expert crime scene investigators would spot spatter. Sometimes it's
(16:54):
a mist. Sometimes there's a mist of blood batter is
down by the floorboards and they're just tiny specks. Sometimes
you have to bring in luminol and look at every
inch of the wall and floor. I wonder if they
looked at the sides of the car that was still parked.
There was that car park there when Jennifer Dulo's was murdered.
(17:20):
Was the lover Michelle jare kind of standing by watching,
but listen to this and correct me if I'm wrong.
Jen Smith Dailymail. Large stains and I'm reading from my notes,
so I want to make sure this is right. Large
stains of Jennifer's blood were discovered in her garage, on
(17:40):
trash cans, and in her master bedroom garage master bedroom
of her home, the concrete floor, two cat trash cans,
and the passenger door of a range rover. She impressions,
(18:01):
according to cops, indicate someone had attempted to clean up
the blood, and I'm taking that to mean that there
were bloody footprints, much as we saw in the oj
Simpson double murder debacle. Is that correct, jenn Smith?
Speaker 6 (18:19):
Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the most significant area was
the area in the garage. There was so much blood
or traces of blood there that it led police across
the futures to believe that she was injured to the
extent that there was no way she could have survived.
There was that much blood there that's what they find.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's exactly where I was headed. You read my mind,
Jenn Smith again, doctor Kendall Crowns. I mentioned earlier Chief
Medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort worth. Never a lack
of business. Lecturer, University of Texas, Austin and Texas Christian
University Medical School, Doctor Kendall Crowns, What does that really
(19:01):
mean that there was such a huge quantity of blood
in her garage? They knew she's dead. She could not
survive this.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
So anytime you see a lot of blood in a
crime scene, in no body, you know that the loss
of blood can result in depth. So once you see
enough to equal about thirty to forty percent of whatever
circulating blood you would have in your body, would would
be about close to a gallon. You know someone's died.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Are you saying you would find a gallon of blood
on the garage war or there is a gallon of blood?
Think of a milk jug gallon. That's how much blood
is in our body A gallon?
Speaker 4 (19:41):
No, No, that's about forty percent of the year circulating blood,
So about roughly two and a half gallons of blood.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Well, where is the rest of the blood? I thought
it was all circulating.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Well, if someone stammed that are beaten, it'll come out
of their body and be all over the crime scene.
So if you see forty what you estimated about forty
percent of their circulating blood outside of their body, you
know they're dead.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So you're saying it would take what a gallon of
blood close to a gallon garage floor for them to
know she's dead?
Speaker 12 (20:14):
Correct?
Speaker 4 (20:14):
And Plasan's in multiple locations?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
He who's this?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
This is Mark?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, I was just going to come to you. We're
going to hear about it in court. But go ahead,
what were you saying?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I was going to say, I understand all these points
and they're valid, but what does this have to do
with Michelle Traconas? Are we trying photos Dulos today and
in this trial? Are we trying Michelle Traconis? And I
don't know if the defence is going to want the
jury to think photos did this, but Michelle had nothing
to do with.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
It and didn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
He don't even gotten the tim Michelle Traconas she was
in the car and admits of being in the car
while photos of dolost Is throwing out clothing. I think
what was it Jackie Sure jenn Smith, wasn't he caught
on video going all around town throwing away what a
bra shirt? Bloody rags and that blood matches back to
(21:06):
his wife, wife Jennifer Dellis Dulos, the mother of his
five children. And miss thing is sitting right there in
the car while he's going from trash can to trash can.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
Yes, no, yes, she was in the car when she
says they were on their way to get kind of
late afternoon evening coffee in town.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
What late afternoon coffee?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Yes, no, that's not a bit questionable.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Thirty trash cans? Jin was that on the way?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Thirty trash cans?
Speaker 6 (21:41):
That's what he says. He dropped off, drop off the
trash and she claims or insists actually multiple times, that
she has no idea what was what was in the bag?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah. Her, that's what we're talking about, sherman, the one
that was having sex with the married man with five children. Her, her,
the one that doesn't.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Make her a killer, Nancy, that doesn't make her a killer.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
And I obviously that that's obvious, But.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't care who has sex with anybody. Cats and
dogs sleeping together. Don't care, couldn't care less. But I
do care about is who killed her and who was
part of it?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
But if I expect everyone downstairs in this courthouse that
thinks she had something to do with it, But is
there enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? Is
there enough of this circumstantial evidence to convict her? I
think that's going to be the issue in this trial.
I don't think anyone's walking out of there thinking she
was an innocent bystander here, But is there enough circumstantial
evidence to convict her?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Was I snoring? Oh? Okay, I'm sorry I fell asleep
during that, right, Okay? Now back to the blood, doctor
Kendle Crowns. I'm just imagining if I can refocus, get
us out of the weeds where Mark Sherman just led
us with just his job. He learned it from his dad,
Mickey Sherman. That's why he won all those cases. Let's
(22:58):
get back on the blood and then I'll deal with
miss thing Michelle Traconis, who's supposed to go on trial.
A gallon of blood. If I see a gallon of
blood on a cement floor or the garage, I know
somebody's dead. Is that right, doctor Crown's.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
It's correct. It's a little less than a gallon, but
a gallon you're dead.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Wow. So that tells me that it wasn't an asphyxiation,
it wasn't a strangulation. It was either blood trauma or
stabbing or shooting. That's the only way. Can you think
of anything else, doctor.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Crowns, No, those would be the main ones. I can't
think of one trauma, stabbing, shooting. Yeah, that there wouldn't
be anything else. It would create that much blood.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I'm so tempted to use a curse word. Robin Drake,
behavior expert, former FBI special agent. Listen to this chief
of the FBI count or Intelligence Behavior Analysis Program. Wow,
Robin Drake. I'm just thinking. The word I wanted to
say was dumb ass, but I gave up cursing when
(23:56):
I had the twins, So I can't say dumb ass.
Because we saw in oj Simpson, Well, you could say
from the crime scene photos you don't have to be
on the scene to see bloody footprints, and here there
are traces of bloody footprints where so much bloody was
actually walking through it.
Speaker 11 (24:17):
So one thing you have to look at too with
the blood is not only the volume of blood.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
But what type of blood stains.
Speaker 11 (24:22):
So, like I mentioned before, blood spatter is indicative of trauma.
So even if you don't have necessarily that entire volume
of blood that would indicate death, you have to look
at how these bloodstains were created, and if they were
created by force, that implies that there was some traumatic event.
And then also is I start thinking about how did
that bleeding victim leave that crime scene? And if you
(24:44):
don't see that bloody victim's footprints or evidence of them
crawling or being dragged out of the scene, you know
that they did not leave on their own free will.
So that is very much consistent with that person being
incapacitated and put inside of a vehicle and then driven
away from that crime scene. And it's very common in
nobody cases where there's blood well put.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
How do you tell the eight old blood mark?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Sherman, You know what, little boy, I'm.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Fifty, nanty, I'm fifty.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Why would why would age of the blood matter?
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Though?
Speaker 4 (25:17):
I mean, if there's a lot of blood, all of
the scene, of all of a similar timeframe, why would
it matter age or not?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Well, it's my argue would be that it hits from
an older date that's not so recent. It does cast
some doubt into whether the blood came from this past
weekend or a week and a half of Mark Sherman.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Let me ask you one question. Does two plus two
equal four in your world?
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Okay, So she takes the children to school that morning
that she disappears, there's a huge pool of blood, her
blood in her garage floor, in the master bedroom and elsewhere.
She was just alive. Ten hours later she's gone and
there's a pool of blood. Wow, whose could it be?
(26:04):
Do you think she bled out a week before and
managed to keep walking? I mean, I appreciate what you're
trying to do, Mark Sherman, but really, don't make me
take you back to law school, Okay, because I will.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
No, I'm just I'm referring to the minor the miner's spattered,
not the pool of the blood. Obviously, they know there
are different places, in different locations that some blood.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And there's another issue, Mark Sherman. And yes, I'm pulling
your leg, but that's what successful defense attorneys do. That's
actually their job to find pot little holes in the
state's case until suddenly there's a flood of doubt coming
through those holes, and that's what he's doing, and that's
what makes them a good defense attorney. But in a yes, no,
(26:49):
doctor Kendall crowns. If blood had pulled that morning after
she came back home from drop off around eight point
fifteen eight thirty, in ten hours, the blood would not
be comp lately dried up. Would it still be tacky?
Speaker 4 (27:02):
It can still be tacky. I mean that's a significant
amount of blood. It won't be completely dried in that time. Prime.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Okay, as Mark Sherman wants us to, you asked for it,
and now you're gonna get it. You know what Oscar
will said, be careful what you ask my dear for,
you will surely get it. And now you're getting it.
What does the mistress have to do with this? Look again,
I don't care his sleep, so see, but when a
dead body pops up, uh huh, I'm giving it to you,
(27:30):
both barrels. Take a listen to our cut. Five.
Speaker 13 (27:32):
Multiple agencies took part in the search. Officers canvas the park,
handed out flyers and use canines and aerial searches, and
most dramatically, video searches of local CCTV cameras. Surveillance cameras
capture a man appearing to be Fotus Duelists disposing of
garbage bags in as many as thirty receptacles in the area.
(27:53):
A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of
the man's car. Police recover clothes and household items with
Jennifer Dulis's blood on it in trash cans around Hartford. Specifically,
the bags contained women's clothing, plastic zip ties, and a
white T shirt all stained. Police also found a stained
utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as
(28:14):
a kitchen sponge.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Oh hes a Nate Nicky's cleaning up blood Now listen
to Sidney Sumner Crime Online.
Speaker 12 (28:21):
The woman in the vehicle with photos Dulos is identified
as his living girlfriend, Michelle Traconis. Police search warrants say
Michelle Traconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as photos
Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured. She
confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she
denies knowing what was in them. Dulos and Traconis, forty four,
(28:41):
are arrested charged with tampering or fabricating physical evidence and
hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
And a Jim Smith, Chief investigative reporter dailymail dot com.
Her response is, oh, I was physy on my phone.
I don't know what happened. Be asked gym indeed.
Speaker 6 (29:01):
I mean it's so suspicious stopping at this many trash cans,
this many locations. But she'sing she didn't ask any questions
of this man that she was living with, and as
you say, was just looking on her phone. Now you
have to, of course, wonder whether or not she's completely
(29:22):
making all of that up likely, or you have to
ask whether or not she really was that naive to
just be turning a blind eye not questioning this man
who by all kinds.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Of curious that my head is actually hurting and I
don't think so. I'm sure Mark Sherman that you don't
think so. I'm sure that's no. No, it's Robin okay,
Robin listen, Robin Drake FBI behavior analyst from my husband. Oh,
this is like eating a dirt sandwich for me. When
my husband who dries, I call him Granny Lynch because
(29:58):
he drives so slowly. I'm like, can you move this?
Tabatan for Pete's sake, when we're trying to get somewhere.
If he's stopped thirty times to throw things in trash,
you don't think I would be standing on my head
and the driver's seat. And not only that, when he
takes out a bloody bra or T shirt and throws
that away. Yeah, I'm gonna ask a question, Robin Drake.
Speaker 10 (30:21):
Hundred percent, you know, and at the same time, I
acknowledge the fact that it's circumstantial. But what you have
here is and we said at the very beginning, you
have a life arc and a baseline of her. Michelle Traconiz,
her personal professional life, for her entire life has all
been about situational awareness because of the.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Job she had.
Speaker 10 (30:42):
It's incongru with naivete. It's incan grew with lined and
deceiving yourself, with the types of jobs and people she's
been around her entire life. So for her to all
of a sudden say, oh, now I'm oblivious to this
new behavior that entered my life, of him throwing out
all these bags, it makes no sense. It doesn't hold
any water because completely incongruent with how she's lived here
life for the time.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And there is another issue to doctor Jeff Kelshewski, I
love security surveillance, and I'm looking right now on my
little phone at photusdealos with a bunch of stuff in
his hands, going toward a public trash can. And guess
who has gotten out of the car. Michelle Treconis. There's
(31:27):
no way. I mean, I'm looking at her. She's out
of the car. He's out, and she's out of the car,
and he is like three feet from her, maybe five feet,
throwing away bloody clothes. So doctor Jeff, how can she
say I didn't know what was going on?
Speaker 8 (31:43):
Well, you know, you see this. We already saw this
with Photis this approach to lying by acting naive? Jury's
do not they look at what typical people would do
in typical situations. Be typical that you would be so
naive that when there's multiple dozens of stops with one
(32:06):
garbage bag being put into different trash receptacles, are you
really that naive that you wouldn't wonder what's going on?
So again, you see this a lot where people don't
know how to lie after a murder's been committed, and
they try to fall into this. I was naive and
I didn't know what was going on, but the jury
(32:28):
never really buys that very often.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, the judge dealt a real blow to the defense
by suppressing all of our so called searches, phone calls,
texts on her phone while she was in the car.
But let me just explain, actually, I'll let Dave Matt
explain it what the state's theory is. And again we
(32:53):
are waiting right now for the trial of Mistress Michelle
Traconis to start.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
Listen, our investigators believe Dulos took a Toyota Tacoma without permission,
driving a new Canaan. In a video caught by a
passing school bus, that Tacoma is seen on the side
of the road near Waveney Park. There's a bicycle in
the back, and it's approximately one hundred feet from where
Jennifer Dulo's suburban would be found. Police believed Dulos rode
the bicycle to Jennifer Dulo's house, lying in wait until
(33:21):
she returned from taking the children to school. Then he
assaulted her in the garage. He then drove the suburban
with Jennifer Dulo's dead or unconscious inside, to the park
and transferred the body into the Tacoma. Just five days later,
police find video of photos Dulos again driving the Tacoma
without permission, heading to a car wash. Police were able
to find traces of Jennifer Dulo's DNA on the vehicle's
(33:44):
passenger seat of the Tacoma. The man who owns the truck,
Paul wel Jermini, is among the two hundred and fifty
people who may be called to testify.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
So let me understand, Jenn Smith puts Dulos barred employees
vehicle without their permission, and now Jennifer Dulos's DNA is
on the vehicle's passenger seat of that Tacoma. There's no
reason her DNA should be on somebody's the back passenger seat.
(34:29):
Is I recall it of the Taco the Toyota Tacoma
of a guy she doesn't really even know, and he
Dulos borrowed the truck and was driving around with Michelle
Traconis in the front seat.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
Yes, no, Jenn Smith, Yeah, absolutely, And you know, talk
about horrible bosses, right. I just want to point out
that this employee has never been a suspect, ever been arrested,
has never been accused in any way of having any
involvement in this. Like the sound clips you just played
point out, he may well be called to to buy.
He's been very cooperative with the police. It really speaks
(35:04):
to kind of the character of Whoti Dolus, right. If
he's willing to involve very innocent people, including his employees,
in this, it kind of shows you what type of
money was and when.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
It comes to murder, there's no defense. I would just
quote along for the ride, I want you to listen
to police interviewing Michelle Traconis in our cut twenty one oh.
By the way, she's worried during the interview, not about
Jennifer Dulos being murdered. She's worried that photos Doulos, her lover,
(35:39):
wanted to get back with his wife. Listen to this.
Speaker 13 (35:41):
If he kills his mother of his five children, also,
who appears to have been wanting to get back with
that mom?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Or do you do his film?
Speaker 7 (35:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (35:52):
Sorry, here he kills the mother of his five children,
and importing to do is you know, from what we
hear from other people and home, you.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Feared to have been wanting to get back to who
wanted to get back to her? Yeah, she's not like, Wow,
Jennifer Delos has been murdered. There's a gallon of her
blood on the floor. Now she's like, who wanted to
(36:24):
get back with her? That's all she cares about. Is
she insane? I don't I don't really get it, Robin Drake.
The woman has been slaughtered. Her five children are going
to grow up without a mom, and she's like he
wanted to get back with her.
Speaker 10 (36:39):
In no way, it just shows that she the behavior
is indicative of the fact that the death is not
a shock to her and the self centeredness in her statements.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Let's hear more from the mistress. Michelle treconis again not
caring at all about the dead mom of five, but
all consumed with the fact that photos doss, fotos dulos
that lie in pace of crap. She's all concerned he
wanted to get back with his wife. Let's not cut
twenty three.
Speaker 14 (37:13):
He was shown you let me tell you something about photos.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Show what training.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
We want to tell you something that everyone in this
room is probably under.
Speaker 7 (37:24):
Photos lies to everyone.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
And the reason he lies to everyone he cares.
Speaker 14 (37:28):
About one person in the world, himself, that's himself.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
He didn't care about his first wife. He didn't care
about his second wife.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
He doesn't care about you.
Speaker 14 (37:36):
He says all kinds of things to all kinds of
people to get what he wants.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Okay, he manipulates, he controls.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
We have no doubt he did that to you.
Speaker 14 (37:48):
He lies to you, so I know him.
Speaker 13 (37:52):
You know what I'm trying to make trying to explain
to you.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
So he owes you, he feels he.
Speaker 13 (37:57):
Owes you, and nothing.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
If he could put this murder on you.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Do you know you could hear her in the back
I'm going she only starts crying when they talk about
him trying to get back with his wife. That's all
this woman cares about. And I want to also play
you're hearing Michelle Tracontas herself speaking, and I want to
let you hear what who was that talking? Either Robin
(38:28):
Drake or Jeff Gentry about calling her? It was Robin
about calling her the most hated woman in America. She's
not crying about the five children now without a mother. Listen,
have you lived at the news all have you seen
your face plaster?
Speaker 14 (38:45):
Honest with you, you're probably.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
One of the most hated women in a perple.
Speaker 14 (38:48):
You know and I'm not being mean.
Speaker 6 (38:51):
So that's how this is like a golden ticket.
Speaker 14 (38:54):
If you know where he could have done something and
could have where he frequents, if you could tip us off,
maybe he said something you ingest, something passing that you
can say you don't want that rings about maybe all right.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
But Jess Smith dailymail dot Com she never did. She
has to this date never given up where she thinks
Jennifer Doulos's body is.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (39:20):
Correct, She is absolutely maintaining that she knows nothing about
what happened to Jennifer Doulos, and I insisting that she
was never made part of any form of cover up
to assist Hotels Japan.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Mark Sherman, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Just I still don't see evidence that she intentionally assisted
photos with the actual murder.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
If you want to.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Talk about covering it up, there's a very strong argument
in the state that's what hindering prosecution is the driving around,
the dumping, the bags, the alibi scripts. But where no
one has pointed to anything that said she was aware
she was going to be killed and that she participated
in that.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
That's actually a really good point at Jeff Kosiski to
go back to.
Speaker 8 (40:02):
An earlier point where the idea when you're trying to
get information out of someone during an interview, you know,
it's like these detectives tried to put her in a
position where she was going to have an emotional reaction
towards spite and want to rat out her boyfriend. But
to a point that was made earlier, they didn't really
give her an opportunity, sort of an off ramp to
(40:23):
get out of this. And when the points have been
brought up about, Okay, this woman is murdered, she's a
mother of five children. In those types of situations, you
want to give an off ramp that maybe gives her
an opportunity to show if there is any compassion towards
the situation, and that you sort of approach it like
(40:45):
you feel bad for her that she's caught up in this,
so can you provide us more information. They try to
put her into a position where she's going to be
spiteful towards this man that she apparently loves, and that's
a hard cell. But again, they didn't give her an
opportunity to provide her an off ramp by showing a
little bit of it's even fake compassion towards her. That oh,
(41:11):
We're so sorry you're caught up in this situation. Hey,
we want to help you get out of this. Tell
us what really happened.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Okay, let me throw that to him, Robin jump in.
Speaker 10 (41:20):
Yeah, So to the point exactly, when you're interviewing someone
in trying to inspire confession and offering that off ramp,
the off ramp's got to be in terms of what's
important to that individual, and a lot of times you
guess at it, and they guessed at it and missed
the mark. And that's why she never took the golden ticket.
Speaker 11 (41:36):
She had no idea what that golden ticket was.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
M the channel Crown's way, Well, I would.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Just say this is you have a lot of the
blood at the scene. You've got multiple trash bags in
the back of a truck that isn't his. There's blood
in the truck and he's disposing of Bonnie part says.
He's driving about this affluent suburb with his girlfriend Slash
whatever you want to call her, on her phone, not
(42:03):
paying attention. Somehow, I find it odd that she had
no idea what was going on and what he was
up to. But that's, of course my opinion. But it's
hard to dispose of a body, and the way that
they've not been able to find it, he had to
have cut her up into pretty small pieces and somehow
disposed of her torso with nobody noticing, including the person
(42:25):
in the chair next to him in the vehicle, that
he was disposing the.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Body with Jeff Gentry, what about it?
Speaker 11 (42:30):
I actually have a question related to Michelle's involvement. So
this was obviously a planned murder, it was very clear.
Speaker 5 (42:39):
But with her having.
Speaker 11 (42:41):
Generated notes with Potus about the alibi, couldn't that be
considered involvement in the murder even if she didn't necessarily
directly participate in killing her?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Well, you're absolutely correct, Jeff Gentry. What about it? Jen Smith?
And notes? We haven't even gotten to them.
Speaker 13 (42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:58):
So, when Sosi do A was trying to establish his
alibi for the morning at Jennifer Dulis's disappearance, he enlisted
the support of his girlfriend, Michelle Terconez and asked her
to walk him through exactly what they had done that morning,
where he was when he was their kind of additional
time stamp so that they could have it over to
(43:18):
the police. They literally concocted the story together of where
he was. Now, the question, obviously, is whether or not
it was a true story. Michelle insists that she didn't
lie and he was everywhere that they claimed he was.
But it's fishy to have to sit down together and
put together at the timeline on the morning of your
(43:40):
wife's murder. You would surely know where you were. You
wouldn't need to confer with anybody about it if you
have nothing to hide. That is the state's case.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
That's what hidory prosecution is. It's rendering assistance as someone
who has committed a murder, and I think that's where
she has the exposure.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
The trial set to start, we wait as just a
sun false goodbye said
Speaker 14 (44:03):
Well
Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yes, I knew better up here in my head, but
I was one of the few that thought there was
a chance, a slim chance, a tiny chance, a sliver
of a chance, that missing Connecticut mom of five Jennifer
Dulos could still be alive. And then her conniving husband,
(00:38):
Photus Dulos and his mistress Michelle Chraconis had to just
blow it all up from me. When I found out
the things that they were caught on camera disposing of
in various locations all over town were bloody clothing, rags, items.
(00:58):
Then I knew. I still did want to know, but
I knew that this mom is dead. Have you found
your body? H L n O. But nobody no case,
that is absolutely not true. The mistress treconis heading to
(01:21):
trial right now. I mean, I see Greece. This is
Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime
Stories and on Serious XM one eleven, just to jog
your memory. Not that you legal eagles. You know, Mark
Sherman joining me, high profile lawyer and don't get mad Mark,
but I'm going to introduce you as the son of
(01:43):
Mickey Sherman, another great trial lawyer and friend this is
your jurisdiction in court. We try to put it nicely,
say your honor, may I refreshed the witnesses recollection. That's
a legal term of art, right, Mark Sherman.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Correct, correct, Well, look, I'm here in the courthouse. It's
a new here, Nancy. There's fifty cameras and the evidence
is getting started today. They expected to go about seven weeks.
You know, everyone's really anxious to.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Hear how the state's going to start off.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I can't wait, but I can tell how we're going
to start off by refreshing everyone's recollection. Take a listen.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
Location of your emergency. Yeah, I'm worried about my wife
and kids because they they left to go to New
York and I haven't been able to get intest with Okay,
they were going to New York.
Speaker 6 (02:35):
What's the license late on the car?
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Excuse me?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
What's the license plate on the car?
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Uh? I you?
Speaker 6 (02:45):
Okay, Well, what's who's the car registered to?
Speaker 5 (02:48):
It's registering to my wife's name, Jennifer Dulos. The last
thing for me, Dulos d u l o els. But
long walls not answering. They're not answering their cellphold I've
been texting and I see that the takes I've been
delivered responding to me.
Speaker 7 (03:08):
Okay, so you have like the fine your iPhone app
or anything like that.
Speaker 8 (03:16):
Thanks?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Okay, what's your name?
Speaker 8 (03:18):
Thanks?
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Photyshon pis doesn't.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Know about find my iPhone? Now? Okay, maybe someone like
my mom who lives with us. She has an iPhone.
She doesn't know about finding an iPhone, but she's ninety two.
How can you not know about find my iPhone? You
know many cases have been solved with find my iPhone? Now,
what happened that day? It was the Friday before Memorial Day.
(03:47):
Take a listen to this.
Speaker 9 (03:48):
The Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos dropped her children
off at school near her Canon, Connecticut home. She had
an eleven am appointment which she missed. No one hears
from her for ten hours. That night, Jennifer Dulo's is
reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
With me and All Star panel. You've already met high
profile lawyer Mark Sherman joining us from the courthouse. But
first of I now want to go to Jen Smith,
the chief investigative reporter for dailymail dot Com, who has
also been covering the case from the get go. It's
nw Canaan, Connecticut, and I've driven through New Canaan, Connecticut
(04:26):
several many times, and it's about an hour ten hour
fifteen maybe ish from Manhattan. Long story short, I drove
through because it was too expensive for me to even
breathe the air. There a lot of rich people. You
ever seen New Canaan. I mean every house looks like
(04:47):
a mansion. And that is where jen Smith, Jennifer and
Potus Dulos lived with their five children.
Speaker 6 (04:55):
Correct, Yeah, pretty much Nancia. As you see, this is
where the wealthy families of Manhattan go when they want
to get a bit of fresh air, very expensive fresh air.
And I send their kids to these prestigious schools up
in the Connecticut suburbs. So Jennifer and photiuse Doulos really
fit the description of an incredibly privileged family. She herself
(05:17):
comes from money. Her own father was a kind of
financial wizard, very well known in Wall Street and Foties
Dolos was a property developer at the time, he got
some help from his wife's generous and wealthy family.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Wait right, right, right, you know that's certainly putting perfume
on the pig jenn Smith. I don't know if they
have that phrase over in the UK, but she perfume
on the pig. Jennifer Dulos father worked his rearan off
and was brilliant financially. He worked, he made the money,
(06:00):
not photos do listener, you said something about property development.
He ran a construction company. My uncle built houses out
in the mud and the dirt and rain, building houses.
But you said he got help. That's where the perfume
on the pig comes in. He got what over a
million dollars He got Jennifer's father to fork over money
(06:25):
to keep his construction business afloat. Isn't that truth?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, that is true.
Speaker 6 (06:30):
Help is probably an understatement. Jennifer's father really helped them.
I think will her right. He was looking after his daughter,
I suppose, but he really bankrolled this construction company. Photis
described as pulperty development. Obviously trying to put covering on
his own take there. And yeah, Jennifer's father really helped
(06:53):
him stay afload for years while he was building property
completely various projects up in that ukn and the unsurrending areas.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
In joining me is behavior expert former FBI Special Agent,
chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and
author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual
for Brek behavior prediction. So, Robin, have you ever heard
of routine evidence?
Speaker 10 (07:25):
Yeah, because it really comes into someone's life bark and
their baseline of their normal behavior that they're exhibit every day,
no doubt.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, it's like this to Mark Sherman, joining us, managing
partner of the Mark Sherman Law Firm. Mark. For instance,
if Jackie Howard was not in this studio an hour
before I come in here viciously complaining about something but
getting everything ready, that would be completely opposite of her routine.
(07:58):
She's always here and it's always ready. So if I
came down here and plopped into the chair and there
was no Jackie right there with me, I would know
she was either dead or in the hospital. Okay, that
is routine evidence. She has a routine. And Jennifer Dulos
(08:19):
had a routine. She's the mother of five. She does
pick up and drop off every day, and so for
her to go missing for ten hours and not pick
up the phone, that's the problem. Mark Sherman.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the defendant killed her,
but honestly, but I agree with you, it gets in
as long as the state can get first, firsthand evidence
of that routine, it can't just be speculation. It's got
to be someone with the rest knowledge, firsthand knowledge of
that routine.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You know what you just did, Mark Sherman, and I'm
so happy you did it. Joining me is doctor Jeff Klshewsky,
forensic psychologist, author of Dark Side. Doctor Gilshoefski, thank you
for being with us. Did you hear what Sherman just did?
And that's what the jury's going to do? He said, well,
wait a minute, just because she's been gone ten hours,
that doesn't mean the husband did it. See that's the
(09:12):
first thing that went to his mind. Doctor Jeff, Well,
I thank you.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
This really speaks to the idea when you talk about
routine evidence and understanding that this routine has been disrupted,
and who would have knowledge of this person's routine and
it could be her ex housband knowing what time the
children will be dropped off at school, what times she
typically will go back. And oftentimes when someone's planning out
(09:36):
of crime, they're obviously going to try to learn the
person's routine, to know when they can sort of deploy
to commit that crime.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
You're so right now. I love the way that Mark Sherman's.
My mind immediately went with that doesn't mean the husband
did it. Me thinks that death protests too much. Mark Sherman, Hey,
Mark is joining us at the courthouse. Mark, you said
there's fifty cameras. What does everybody want to get a
look at Photosdulos Mistress Michelle Treconis.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
You know, Nancy, it's a town of twenty thousand people,
it's a tony town. It's a compelling story that there's
so many moving pieces here that just make this case compelling,
and it's really grabbing the attention of a lot of
people around the country.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Well, I guess so because everybody wants justice. Why are
we so concerned because massive amounts of blood turn up?
And Jennifer Duloss Garage time.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Jenna Smith's joining me, chief investigative reporter dealilymail dot com.
Jen who exactly I just heard photus Delos blah blah blah.
Is he the first one that called nine one one
about her disappearance?
Speaker 6 (10:56):
No, he's not actually so on the day of Jennifer
look as appearance. By this time, Jennifer and Sochi's were
not living together. They were in the midst of a
really acrimonious divorce and custody battle. The first people who
alerted the authorities to the fact that she had vanished
were her friends. They were concerned about the fact that
(11:17):
on this date she had missed several appointments that she
was due to a tent after dropping off the kids.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
What were the appointments, Jim Smith.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
You know, I'm not sure if they were anything super
out of the ordinary. We're talking about routine things. She
wasn't really working at the time, and so it was
things along the lines of like Gener's appointment.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Okay, hold on, hold on, little girl, jenn Smith, do
you have children?
Speaker 4 (11:41):
I do not.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Okay, Well, hopefully one day you'll have that joy that
I have now. Of course, before I had children, I
hate it when people said that. But now that I
have children, I found out I was never happy. I
just thought I was happy. My point, I'm leading up
to jen Smith, two children, I might exulted. By the
end of the day, I fall asleep sitting in a chair,
(12:03):
straight up I'm like, whoa, what happened? This woman is
working trust me in the home. But you're right, it
wasn't like showing up at the office. For all I
note was me, Yeah, it could have been a PTA meeting,
It could have been a cookie se I don't know
what it was. But they were onto it.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
She was not. She wasn't due to attend business meeting.
But of course a mother of five is a very
busy woman, working a lot harder than you know many
people who are in an office all day. Of course,
that's not what I meant by any stretch of the imagination.
But these were you know, what's relevant here is that
these are a piecemeal little thing.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Oh hey, I know what they are. I've got it
in my notes right here. Jen. And also you know
she was a writer. She did write for Patch dot com. Uh.
And she was seen returning home at eight oh five
am on a neighbor security camera. But it was two
doctor's appointments in New York City, that's what she missed.
(13:02):
I thought it was doctor's appointments. And in my notes,
I've got that the nanny, Lauren Almeda and another friend,
they were the ones to first report her missing. Okay,
so that's the answer to that. All right, let's get
to the blood. Take a listen to crime Onlines Dave Max.
Speaker 7 (13:28):
When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulo's home, bloodstains are visible
not only on the garage floor, but garbage cans and
a car parked in the garage. The car in the
garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known
to drive. Police initiate a search for her vehicle. A
little over an hour later, in just three miles from
the home, officers find the abandoned suburban by Waveny Park.
It contains blood evidence too. Back at the home, investigators
(13:51):
determined someone had tried to clean the concrete floor.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay. I love nothing better than talking about blood evidence
and joining me in a dish into A renowned medical examiner,
Doctor Kendall Crowns is Jeff Gentry. Jeff is a forensic
certified Bloodstained Pattern Analyst and an ab MDI what is
(14:15):
that American Board of Medico Legal Death Investigators. He's author
of A Visual Guide to Bloodstained Pattern Analysis. What could
be better than that book? A Visual Guide to Bloodstained
Pattern Analysis. Bloodstained Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene investigators.
(14:40):
And that's not all. He couldn't stop himself. He's also
the author of death investigation information to obtain during a
forensic death investigation. I know what I'm doing tonight, Jeff Gentry,
thank you for being with us. Then I'm going to
follow up and see how what doctor Kendall Crown's what
his analysis is as an overlay if he agrees or
(15:03):
disagrees with you, Jeff Gentry. So we're having a little
pop quiz, Jeff Gentry, So he is going to be
your teacher. He's going to grave your answer. They say
that that someone had tried to clean up the cement floor,
how could they tell that?
Speaker 11 (15:22):
So first what I read was that there was blood spatter.
Blood spatter is indicative of trauma or force being applied
to blood. So right away that tells you that something
really bad happened there, that there was some kind of
a violent act. There was also blood transfers, meaning that
these bloodstains were transferred to different locations throughout the garage.
(15:44):
So that's also indicative of a struggle or somebody was
fighting back after they were bleeding. Then on top of
all of that, you've got multiple areas of cleanup. So
the way that they can tell that blood has been
cleaned up is it appears diluted or altered. We all
know what normal blood looks like. It's red, it's kind
of brownish. But then when you apply either chemicals or
(16:07):
water to it, it's going to change the appearance. So
that's how you can tell that blood has been cleaned
up or altered. So it's actually quite easy if you
have experience in seeing blood stains on a regular basis
and doing the analysis. But it can really tell you
a lot. It can tell you the events that transpired
during a violent act or a bloody crime scene, and
(16:29):
I use it all the time in my scenes.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Jeff Gentry, another thing that I like about you, and
you remind me a great deal of doctor Crown's. You're
so humble and modest. No, it's not quote really easy.
Most people would walk in and see absolutely nothing. You, however,
and expert crime scene investigators would spot spatter. Sometimes it's
(16:54):
a mist. Sometimes there's a mist of blood batter is
down by the floorboards and they're just tiny specks. Sometimes
you have to bring in luminol and look at every
inch of the wall and floor. I wonder if they
looked at the sides of the car that was still parked.
There was that car park there when Jennifer Dulo's was murdered.
(17:20):
Was the lover Michelle jare kind of standing by watching,
but listen to this and correct me if I'm wrong.
Jen Smith Dailymail. Large stains and I'm reading from my notes,
so I want to make sure this is right. Large
stains of Jennifer's blood were discovered in her garage, on
(17:40):
trash cans, and in her master bedroom garage master bedroom
of her home, the concrete floor, two cat trash cans,
and the passenger door of a range rover. She impressions,
(18:01):
according to cops, indicate someone had attempted to clean up
the blood, and I'm taking that to mean that there
were bloody footprints, much as we saw in the oj
Simpson double murder debacle. Is that correct, jenn Smith?
Speaker 6 (18:19):
Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the most significant area was
the area in the garage. There was so much blood
or traces of blood there that it led police across
the futures to believe that she was injured to the
extent that there was no way she could have survived.
There was that much blood there that's what they find.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's exactly where I was headed. You read my mind,
Jenn Smith again, doctor Kendall Crowns. I mentioned earlier Chief
Medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort worth. Never a lack
of business. Lecturer, University of Texas, Austin and Texas Christian
University Medical School, Doctor Kendall Crowns, What does that really
(19:01):
mean that there was such a huge quantity of blood
in her garage? They knew she's dead. She could not
survive this.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
So anytime you see a lot of blood in a
crime scene, in no body, you know that the loss
of blood can result in depth. So once you see
enough to equal about thirty to forty percent of whatever
circulating blood you would have in your body, would would
be about close to a gallon. You know someone's died.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Are you saying you would find a gallon of blood
on the garage war or there is a gallon of blood?
Think of a milk jug gallon. That's how much blood
is in our body A gallon?
Speaker 4 (19:41):
No, No, that's about forty percent of the year circulating blood,
So about roughly two and a half gallons of blood.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Well, where is the rest of the blood? I thought
it was all circulating.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Well, if someone stammed that are beaten, it'll come out
of their body and be all over the crime scene.
So if you see forty what you estimated about forty
percent of their circulating blood outside of their body, you
know they're dead.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So you're saying it would take what a gallon of
blood close to a gallon garage floor for them to
know she's dead?
Speaker 12 (20:14):
Correct?
Speaker 4 (20:14):
And Plasan's in multiple locations?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
He who's this?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
This is Mark?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, I was just going to come to you. We're
going to hear about it in court. But go ahead,
what were you saying?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
I was going to say, I understand all these points
and they're valid, but what does this have to do
with Michelle Traconas? Are we trying photos Dulos today and
in this trial? Are we trying Michelle Traconis? And I
don't know if the defence is going to want the
jury to think photos did this, but Michelle had nothing
to do with.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
It and didn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
He don't even gotten the tim Michelle Traconas she was
in the car and admits of being in the car
while photos of dolost Is throwing out clothing. I think
what was it Jackie Sure jenn Smith, wasn't he caught
on video going all around town throwing away what a
bra shirt? Bloody rags and that blood matches back to
(21:06):
his wife, wife Jennifer Dellis Dulos, the mother of his
five children. And miss thing is sitting right there in
the car while he's going from trash can to trash can.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
Yes, no, yes, she was in the car when she
says they were on their way to get kind of
late afternoon evening coffee in town.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
What late afternoon coffee?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Yes, no, that's not a bit questionable.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Thirty trash cans? Jin was that on the way?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Thirty trash cans?
Speaker 6 (21:41):
That's what he says. He dropped off, drop off the
trash and she claims or insists actually multiple times, that
she has no idea what was what was in the bag?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah. Her, that's what we're talking about, sherman, the one
that was having sex with the married man with five children. Her, her,
the one that doesn't.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Make her a killer, Nancy, that doesn't make her a killer.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
And I obviously that that's obvious, But.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't care who has sex with anybody. Cats and
dogs sleeping together. Don't care, couldn't care less. But I
do care about is who killed her and who was
part of it?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
But if I expect everyone downstairs in this courthouse that
thinks she had something to do with it, But is
there enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? Is
there enough of this circumstantial evidence to convict her? I
think that's going to be the issue in this trial.
I don't think anyone's walking out of there thinking she
was an innocent bystander here, But is there enough circumstantial
evidence to convict her?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Was I snoring? Oh? Okay, I'm sorry I fell asleep
during that, right, Okay? Now back to the blood, doctor
Kendle Crowns. I'm just imagining if I can refocus, get
us out of the weeds where Mark Sherman just led
us with just his job. He learned it from his dad,
Mickey Sherman. That's why he won all those cases. Let's
(22:58):
get back on the blood and then I'll deal with
miss thing Michelle Traconis, who's supposed to go on trial.
A gallon of blood. If I see a gallon of
blood on a cement floor or the garage, I know
somebody's dead. Is that right, doctor Crown's.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
It's correct. It's a little less than a gallon, but
a gallon you're dead.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Wow. So that tells me that it wasn't an asphyxiation,
it wasn't a strangulation. It was either blood trauma or
stabbing or shooting. That's the only way. Can you think
of anything else, doctor.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Crowns, No, those would be the main ones. I can't
think of one trauma, stabbing, shooting. Yeah, that there wouldn't
be anything else. It would create that much blood.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I'm so tempted to use a curse word. Robin Drake,
behavior expert, former FBI special agent. Listen to this chief
of the FBI count or Intelligence Behavior Analysis Program. Wow,
Robin Drake. I'm just thinking. The word I wanted to
say was dumb ass, but I gave up cursing when
(23:56):
I had the twins, So I can't say dumb ass.
Because we saw in oj Simpson, Well, you could say
from the crime scene photos you don't have to be
on the scene to see bloody footprints, and here there
are traces of bloody footprints where so much bloody was
actually walking through it.
Speaker 11 (24:17):
So one thing you have to look at too with
the blood is not only the volume of blood.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
But what type of blood stains.
Speaker 11 (24:22):
So, like I mentioned before, blood spatter is indicative of trauma.
So even if you don't have necessarily that entire volume
of blood that would indicate death, you have to look
at how these bloodstains were created, and if they were
created by force, that implies that there was some traumatic event.
And then also is I start thinking about how did
that bleeding victim leave that crime scene? And if you
(24:44):
don't see that bloody victim's footprints or evidence of them
crawling or being dragged out of the scene, you know
that they did not leave on their own free will.
So that is very much consistent with that person being
incapacitated and put inside of a vehicle and then driven
away from that crime scene. And it's very common in
nobody cases where there's blood well put.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
How do you tell the eight old blood mark?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Sherman, You know what, little boy, I'm.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Fifty, nanty, I'm fifty.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Why would why would age of the blood matter?
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Though?
Speaker 4 (25:17):
I mean, if there's a lot of blood, all of
the scene, of all of a similar timeframe, why would
it matter age or not?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Well, it's my argue would be that it hits from
an older date that's not so recent. It does cast
some doubt into whether the blood came from this past
weekend or a week and a half of Mark Sherman.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Let me ask you one question. Does two plus two
equal four in your world?
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Okay, So she takes the children to school that morning
that she disappears, there's a huge pool of blood, her
blood in her garage floor, in the master bedroom and elsewhere.
She was just alive. Ten hours later she's gone and
there's a pool of blood. Wow, whose could it be?
(26:04):
Do you think she bled out a week before and
managed to keep walking? I mean, I appreciate what you're
trying to do, Mark Sherman, but really, don't make me
take you back to law school, Okay, because I will.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
No, I'm just I'm referring to the minor the miner's spattered,
not the pool of the blood. Obviously, they know there
are different places, in different locations that some blood.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And there's another issue, Mark Sherman. And yes, I'm pulling
your leg, but that's what successful defense attorneys do. That's
actually their job to find pot little holes in the
state's case until suddenly there's a flood of doubt coming
through those holes, and that's what he's doing, and that's
what makes them a good defense attorney. But in a yes, no,
(26:49):
doctor Kendall crowns. If blood had pulled that morning after
she came back home from drop off around eight point
fifteen eight thirty, in ten hours, the blood would not
be comp lately dried up. Would it still be tacky?
Speaker 4 (27:02):
It can still be tacky. I mean that's a significant
amount of blood. It won't be completely dried in that time. Prime.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Okay, as Mark Sherman wants us to, you asked for it,
and now you're gonna get it. You know what Oscar
will said, be careful what you ask my dear for,
you will surely get it. And now you're getting it.
What does the mistress have to do with this? Look again,
I don't care his sleep, so see, but when a
dead body pops up, uh huh, I'm giving it to you,
(27:30):
both barrels. Take a listen to our cut. Five.
Speaker 13 (27:32):
Multiple agencies took part in the search. Officers canvas the park,
handed out flyers and use canines and aerial searches, and
most dramatically, video searches of local CCTV cameras. Surveillance cameras
capture a man appearing to be Fotus Duelists disposing of
garbage bags in as many as thirty receptacles in the area.
(27:53):
A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of
the man's car. Police recover clothes and household items with
Jennifer Dulis's blood on it in trash cans around Hartford. Specifically,
the bags contained women's clothing, plastic zip ties, and a
white T shirt all stained. Police also found a stained
utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as
(28:14):
a kitchen sponge.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Oh hes a Nate Nicky's cleaning up blood Now listen
to Sidney Sumner Crime Online.
Speaker 12 (28:21):
The woman in the vehicle with photos Dulos is identified
as his living girlfriend, Michelle Traconis. Police search warrants say
Michelle Traconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as photos
Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured. She
confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she
denies knowing what was in them. Dulos and Traconis, forty four,
(28:41):
are arrested charged with tampering or fabricating physical evidence and
hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
And a Jim Smith, Chief investigative reporter dailymail dot com.
Her response is, oh, I was physy on my phone.
I don't know what happened. Be asked gym indeed.
Speaker 6 (29:01):
I mean it's so suspicious stopping at this many trash cans,
this many locations. But she'sing she didn't ask any questions
of this man that she was living with, and as
you say, was just looking on her phone. Now you
have to, of course, wonder whether or not she's completely
(29:22):
making all of that up likely, or you have to
ask whether or not she really was that naive to
just be turning a blind eye not questioning this man
who by all kinds.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Of curious that my head is actually hurting and I
don't think so. I'm sure Mark Sherman that you don't
think so. I'm sure that's no. No, it's Robin okay,
Robin listen, Robin Drake FBI behavior analyst from my husband. Oh,
this is like eating a dirt sandwich for me. When
my husband who dries, I call him Granny Lynch because
(29:58):
he drives so slowly. I'm like, can you move this?
Tabatan for Pete's sake, when we're trying to get somewhere.
If he's stopped thirty times to throw things in trash,
you don't think I would be standing on my head
and the driver's seat. And not only that, when he
takes out a bloody bra or T shirt and throws
that away. Yeah, I'm gonna ask a question, Robin Drake.
Speaker 10 (30:21):
Hundred percent, you know, and at the same time, I
acknowledge the fact that it's circumstantial. But what you have
here is and we said at the very beginning, you
have a life arc and a baseline of her. Michelle Traconiz,
her personal professional life, for her entire life has all
been about situational awareness because of the.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Job she had.
Speaker 10 (30:42):
It's incongru with naivete. It's incan grew with lined and
deceiving yourself, with the types of jobs and people she's
been around her entire life. So for her to all
of a sudden say, oh, now I'm oblivious to this
new behavior that entered my life, of him throwing out
all these bags, it makes no sense. It doesn't hold
any water because completely incongruent with how she's lived here
life for the time.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And there is another issue to doctor Jeff Kelshewski, I
love security surveillance, and I'm looking right now on my
little phone at photusdealos with a bunch of stuff in
his hands, going toward a public trash can. And guess
who has gotten out of the car. Michelle Treconis. There's
(31:27):
no way. I mean, I'm looking at her. She's out
of the car. He's out, and she's out of the car,
and he is like three feet from her, maybe five feet,
throwing away bloody clothes. So doctor Jeff, how can she
say I didn't know what was going on?
Speaker 8 (31:43):
Well, you know, you see this. We already saw this
with Photis this approach to lying by acting naive? Jury's
do not they look at what typical people would do
in typical situations. Be typical that you would be so
naive that when there's multiple dozens of stops with one
(32:06):
garbage bag being put into different trash receptacles, are you
really that naive that you wouldn't wonder what's going on?
So again, you see this a lot where people don't
know how to lie after a murder's been committed, and
they try to fall into this. I was naive and
I didn't know what was going on, but the jury
(32:28):
never really buys that very often.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, the judge dealt a real blow to the defense
by suppressing all of our so called searches, phone calls,
texts on her phone while she was in the car.
But let me just explain, actually, I'll let Dave Matt
explain it what the state's theory is. And again we
(32:53):
are waiting right now for the trial of Mistress Michelle
Traconis to start.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
Listen, our investigators believe Dulos took a Toyota Tacoma without permission,
driving a new Canaan. In a video caught by a
passing school bus, that Tacoma is seen on the side
of the road near Waveney Park. There's a bicycle in
the back, and it's approximately one hundred feet from where
Jennifer Dulo's suburban would be found. Police believed Dulos rode
the bicycle to Jennifer Dulo's house, lying in wait until
(33:21):
she returned from taking the children to school. Then he
assaulted her in the garage. He then drove the suburban
with Jennifer Dulo's dead or unconscious inside, to the park
and transferred the body into the Tacoma. Just five days later,
police find video of photos Dulos again driving the Tacoma
without permission, heading to a car wash. Police were able
to find traces of Jennifer Dulo's DNA on the vehicle's
(33:44):
passenger seat of the Tacoma. The man who owns the truck,
Paul wel Jermini, is among the two hundred and fifty
people who may be called to testify.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
So let me understand, Jenn Smith puts Dulos barred employees
vehicle without their permission, and now Jennifer Dulos's DNA is
on the vehicle's passenger seat of that Tacoma. There's no
reason her DNA should be on somebody's the back passenger seat.
(34:29):
Is I recall it of the Taco the Toyota Tacoma
of a guy she doesn't really even know, and he
Dulos borrowed the truck and was driving around with Michelle
Traconis in the front seat.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
Yes, no, Jenn Smith, Yeah, absolutely, And you know, talk
about horrible bosses, right. I just want to point out
that this employee has never been a suspect, ever been arrested,
has never been accused in any way of having any
involvement in this. Like the sound clips you just played
point out, he may well be called to to buy.
He's been very cooperative with the police. It really speaks
(35:04):
to kind of the character of Whoti Dolus, right. If
he's willing to involve very innocent people, including his employees,
in this, it kind of shows you what type of
money was and when.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
It comes to murder, there's no defense. I would just
quote along for the ride, I want you to listen
to police interviewing Michelle Traconis in our cut twenty one oh.
By the way, she's worried during the interview, not about
Jennifer Dulos being murdered. She's worried that photos Doulos, her lover,
(35:39):
wanted to get back with his wife. Listen to this.
Speaker 13 (35:41):
If he kills his mother of his five children, also,
who appears to have been wanting to get back with
that mom?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Or do you do his film?
Speaker 7 (35:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (35:52):
Sorry, here he kills the mother of his five children,
and importing to do is you know, from what we
hear from other people and home, you.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Feared to have been wanting to get back to who
wanted to get back to her? Yeah, she's not like, Wow,
Jennifer Delos has been murdered. There's a gallon of her
blood on the floor. Now she's like, who wanted to
(36:24):
get back with her? That's all she cares about. Is
she insane? I don't I don't really get it, Robin Drake.
The woman has been slaughtered. Her five children are going
to grow up without a mom, and she's like he
wanted to get back with her.
Speaker 10 (36:39):
In no way, it just shows that she the behavior
is indicative of the fact that the death is not
a shock to her and the self centeredness in her statements.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Let's hear more from the mistress. Michelle treconis again not
caring at all about the dead mom of five, but
all consumed with the fact that photos doss, fotos dulos
that lie in pace of crap. She's all concerned he
wanted to get back with his wife. Let's not cut
twenty three.
Speaker 14 (37:13):
He was shown you let me tell you something about photos.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Show what training.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
We want to tell you something that everyone in this
room is probably under.
Speaker 7 (37:24):
Photos lies to everyone.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
And the reason he lies to everyone he cares.
Speaker 14 (37:28):
About one person in the world, himself, that's himself.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
He didn't care about his first wife. He didn't care
about his second wife.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
He doesn't care about you.
Speaker 14 (37:36):
He says all kinds of things to all kinds of
people to get what he wants.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Okay, he manipulates, he controls.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
We have no doubt he did that to you.
Speaker 14 (37:48):
He lies to you, so I know him.
Speaker 13 (37:52):
You know what I'm trying to make trying to explain
to you.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
So he owes you, he feels he.
Speaker 13 (37:57):
Owes you, and nothing.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
If he could put this murder on you.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Do you know you could hear her in the back
I'm going she only starts crying when they talk about
him trying to get back with his wife. That's all
this woman cares about. And I want to also play
you're hearing Michelle Tracontas herself speaking, and I want to
let you hear what who was that talking? Either Robin
(38:28):
Drake or Jeff Gentry about calling her? It was Robin
about calling her the most hated woman in America. She's
not crying about the five children now without a mother. Listen,
have you lived at the news all have you seen
your face plaster?
Speaker 14 (38:45):
Honest with you, you're probably.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
One of the most hated women in a perple.
Speaker 14 (38:48):
You know and I'm not being mean.
Speaker 6 (38:51):
So that's how this is like a golden ticket.
Speaker 14 (38:54):
If you know where he could have done something and
could have where he frequents, if you could tip us off,
maybe he said something you ingest, something passing that you
can say you don't want that rings about maybe all right.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
But Jess Smith dailymail dot Com she never did. She
has to this date never given up where she thinks
Jennifer Doulos's body is.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (39:20):
Correct, She is absolutely maintaining that she knows nothing about
what happened to Jennifer Doulos, and I insisting that she
was never made part of any form of cover up
to assist Hotels Japan.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Mark Sherman, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Just I still don't see evidence that she intentionally assisted
photos with the actual murder.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
If you want to.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Talk about covering it up, there's a very strong argument
in the state that's what hindering prosecution is the driving around,
the dumping, the bags, the alibi scripts. But where no
one has pointed to anything that said she was aware
she was going to be killed and that she participated
in that.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
That's actually a really good point at Jeff Kosiski to
go back to.
Speaker 8 (40:02):
An earlier point where the idea when you're trying to
get information out of someone during an interview, you know,
it's like these detectives tried to put her in a
position where she was going to have an emotional reaction
towards spite and want to rat out her boyfriend. But
to a point that was made earlier, they didn't really
give her an opportunity, sort of an off ramp to
(40:23):
get out of this. And when the points have been
brought up about, Okay, this woman is murdered, she's a
mother of five children. In those types of situations, you
want to give an off ramp that maybe gives her
an opportunity to show if there is any compassion towards
the situation, and that you sort of approach it like
(40:45):
you feel bad for her that she's caught up in this,
so can you provide us more information. They try to
put her into a position where she's going to be
spiteful towards this man that she apparently loves, and that's
a hard cell. But again, they didn't give her an
opportunity to provide her an off ramp by showing a
little bit of it's even fake compassion towards her. That oh,
(41:11):
We're so sorry you're caught up in this situation. Hey,
we want to help you get out of this. Tell
us what really happened.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Okay, let me throw that to him, Robin jump in.
Speaker 10 (41:20):
Yeah, So to the point exactly, when you're interviewing someone
in trying to inspire confession and offering that off ramp,
the off ramp's got to be in terms of what's
important to that individual, and a lot of times you
guess at it, and they guessed at it and missed
the mark. And that's why she never took the golden ticket.
Speaker 11 (41:36):
She had no idea what that golden ticket was.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
M the channel Crown's way, Well, I would.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Just say this is you have a lot of the
blood at the scene. You've got multiple trash bags in
the back of a truck that isn't his. There's blood
in the truck and he's disposing of Bonnie part says.
He's driving about this affluent suburb with his girlfriend Slash
whatever you want to call her, on her phone, not
(42:03):
paying attention. Somehow, I find it odd that she had
no idea what was going on and what he was
up to. But that's, of course my opinion. But it's
hard to dispose of a body, and the way that
they've not been able to find it, he had to
have cut her up into pretty small pieces and somehow
disposed of her torso with nobody noticing, including the person
(42:25):
in the chair next to him in the vehicle, that
he was disposing the.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Body with Jeff Gentry, what about it?
Speaker 11 (42:30):
I actually have a question related to Michelle's involvement. So
this was obviously a planned murder, it was very clear.
Speaker 5 (42:39):
But with her having.
Speaker 11 (42:41):
Generated notes with Potus about the alibi, couldn't that be
considered involvement in the murder even if she didn't necessarily
directly participate in killing her?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Well, you're absolutely correct, Jeff Gentry. What about it? Jen Smith?
And notes? We haven't even gotten to them.
Speaker 13 (42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:58):
So, when Sosi do A was trying to establish his
alibi for the morning at Jennifer Dulis's disappearance, he enlisted
the support of his girlfriend, Michelle Terconez and asked her
to walk him through exactly what they had done that morning,
where he was when he was their kind of additional
time stamp so that they could have it over to
(43:18):
the police. They literally concocted the story together of where
he was. Now, the question, obviously, is whether or not
it was a true story. Michelle insists that she didn't
lie and he was everywhere that they claimed he was.
But it's fishy to have to sit down together and
put together at the timeline on the morning of your
(43:40):
wife's murder. You would surely know where you were. You
wouldn't need to confer with anybody about it if you
have nothing to hide. That is the state's case.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
That's what hidory prosecution is. It's rendering assistance as someone
who has committed a murder, and I think that's where
she has the exposure.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
The trial set to start, we wait as just a
sun false goodbye said
Speaker 14 (44:03):
Well
Host
Nancy Grace
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