November 24, 2024 • 38 mins
Thirty years after Susan Smith drove her car into a lake with her two sons still strapped in their car seats, she is seeking parole.
After high school, Susan Leigh Vaughan married David Smith. They had two sons, but the children did not hold the marriage together. The Smiths separated multiple times. During one of these separations, Susan began dating Tom Findlay, the single son of a wealthy mill owner. Smith envisioned a future with Findlay until she received a "Dear John" letter from him. He explained he did not want an instant family.
On the night of October 25, Susan Smith knocked on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake. Hysterical, she told the man who answered to call the police. She claimed an armed Black man had carjacked her at a red light, with her two boys—3-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alex—still in the car. For days, Susan repeated increasingly inconsistent versions of the carjacking story.
Eventually, Smith confessed. There had been no hijacker. Feeling desperate, alone, and suicidal, she had gone for a drive with her sons buckled in their car seats. At John D. Long Lake, she put the car in neutral, jumped out, and watched it sink. Scuba divers later found the vehicle with the boys still strapped in the back seats.
Since her conviction and incarceration, tabloid reports have alleged that Smith told prison investigators about four sexual encounters with Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor at South Carolina’s Women’s Correctional Institution. C
agle admitted to having sex with Smith and another inmate. In August 2000, he was charged with the offenses, pleaded guilty, and served three months in jail. Captain Alfred Rowe also pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and received five years of probation.
Over the years, several men have written to Smith, fueling her hopes for a life beyond prison.
In March 2022, People Magazine published excerpts from letters Smith wrote to a long-distance boyfriend. In one letter, she wrote, "I can't wait to build a life with you, leave the past mistakes behind, and start fresh, just you and me."
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Tara Malek – Boise, ID, Attorney & Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Twitter: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- JoScott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University; Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet;” Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JoScottForensic
- Dave Mack - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
In the last hours, murder mom Susan Smith cries sobs,
breaks down in front of a parole board, begging to
be released. She says she has quote improved during her
years behind bars. I wonder if that could be said
of her two little boys, Michael and Alex. She drove
(00:30):
her car into a South Carolina lake and then blamed
an unknown black mail for hijacking her car. What a
load of bs technical legal term. Well, thankfully this time
at least the parole board got it right and saw
through her crocodile tears. That's right, Susan Smith, parole denied. Hello,
(00:56):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us. What exactly happened? What led us to
this day, this moment, these crocodile tears and this parole
board hearing? See if this jogs your memory, listen.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Layol love and here's a lady. You come on dot
Dollar and some guy jumping into a red light with
her car with her two kids in it, and he
took off and he got out of call here at Ohio. Yes, Layol,
let her call and I don't rhy, I need to
go along. Get'm down here and a car. But we
need to add a magna protege.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
What color was it?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
A burgundy magna protege? We're going to don't get him.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Going pay him? They got two.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't
even know where to go first because they got such
awesome experts. But I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.
He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care,
former homicide is of starting to care, getting warm, getting warm,
getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview
(02:07):
Room where I found him. You can find him at
Colcays Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room Former
homicide detective three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.
Chris McDonough, don't you love the degree of detail? Hey?
You know what send me? Sometimes you got to hear
(02:30):
the best stuff? Can you play that one more time? Listen?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Lay love and that is a lady You come on
dot dollar and he's some guy Dan into a red
light with her car with her two kids in it,
and he took he got out of call.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Here at Ohio.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Lay let her call it. I don't I need to
go along, get down here and a car.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
But we need a.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Live body day.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
What color?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Was it a burgundy? Maga protege?
Speaker 5 (03:02):
We don't get him going pay him?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I got tap, I'll go all the detail, Chris McDonough.
She's quote real hysterical and you need to call them
and get him down here right now. And you hear
her feeding details in the background, Nancy, wasn't.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
That the narrative that captivated America?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
How can you be so calm?
Speaker 6 (03:27):
You know, we just get used to it, unfortunately, right
it's when.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know
the end of this story. But the detail. Have you
ever seen perps and they will spin you a yarn
with such incredibly rich detail.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and
that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she
kicked it off right.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,
running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps
out and you know this occurs in rural Union County,
South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And you know,
hold on, Chris mcdona, where do you live, Chris?
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Well, right now, I'm in Arizona. But I lived in
South Carolina right there.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
In Mount Plus, you're very familiar with this area. Let
me go to another country boy like this country girl
right here, just got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten
pretty high falutin. Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet, still waiting on another book to
come out. Host of Bodybag's hit podcast this area, Chris
(04:47):
McDonagh has lived in South Carolina. I've gone to this
scene before. It's extremely rural, and I'm supposed to believe
a guy jumps out of what from behind a stop
sign and hijacks her car and takes off with the
children clearly in the back seat, two little boys.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have
somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether
or not they had an awareness that, you know, these
poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.
The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive
behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as
(05:27):
an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and
I'm going to take a long look at what she
has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,
the line share, the line share of home sides that
we talked about have some kind of familial connection. That
means that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.
So you're going to tell me that a random stranger
(05:48):
just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off
with them and left her standing on the side of
the road weeping.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdona,
I am going along with every he says, but he's
a wily one. You got to really watching watch what
Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect,
but did you hear him say if the unknown male
assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking
(06:18):
right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can
see straight into the back seat from every angle of
the car. It's not like you know, you see those
black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's
going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's
going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at
(06:39):
a shot from the distance, I can see through the
back window, through the back dash, and through the other
side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely
see that children were strapped into car seats in the
back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take
a listen to the nine one one call.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Listen Union one of us, one of five gohead. She
said it with a black male driving aigh born and
protege Affirman did.
Speaker 8 (07:10):
One of fine.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
They had two junloed one fine for one understood these
were small children. These are her children. And she jumped
out of the car and he took the car with
the children and he's headed toy Chest one hundred. The victors,
both quicktors cola family from when I gathered by the call,
(07:33):
they are not This is a stranger that had jumped
in the lady's car at a red light and she
jumped out.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I mean, really, Tara, and I'm leading up to what
Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me tell
you it involves six different men. That said Tara Malick
joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith and Malik,
former state and federal prosecutor. Tara once again blame the
(08:04):
black man. I remember when this happened. I was trying
a case and I looked over at my friend, my colleague,
who went on to be a judge, I might add,
and I went, Herman, have you seen the composite of
the guy that Susan Smith described? And he went, yeah,
(08:26):
I know what you're gonna say. Yeah, it looks just
like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial
partner who had come into court to bail me out
of some sling. I got in with the judge with
some appellate law, trying to suggest that I was right
and whatever I did. But he went, yeah, I've heard
(08:50):
I looked just like this Susan Smith purt and he did.
I mean, think about it, Tara, an innocent person could
have been arrested and probably tried and convicted based on
her fake composite and all of her lies. Like my Herman,
one of my best friends in the DA's office.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and
horrific and terrible.
Speaker 9 (09:17):
And then and then you know, to give this.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
False profile of someone else who may have done it,
wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,
like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of
being picked up for it. And It's just mind boggling
that she would go.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Down this road. You know, I've dealt with a sod
defense many times. I namede that some other dude did it.
So d d here she goes some other dude did it,
and listen to her.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Listen.
Speaker 10 (09:48):
I would like to say to whoever has my children
that they please they please bring them home.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
To us where they belong.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
After nearly thirty years behind bars, Susan Smith says she
should be released. In attendance. Much of it was by
remote her ex husband David Smith, along with prosecutors, all
wearing photos of the two little boys that were murdered
that day, her two sons, Michael and Alex, all of
(10:38):
them opposing parole. Do you remember her motive? Because I do.
She wanted to marry the rich guy in town's son
and he did not want a ready made family.
Speaker 9 (10:57):
I e.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Her two boys, Michael and al so all done. She
killed them. Now let's get married.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
You know, I will never forget when she gave that
tearful plea. Much like the tearful plea she gave the
last hours to the prole board for someone, some unknown
kidnapper to bring her boys home. Oh, she was so convincing,
just like she was in front of the pro board.
Doctor Bethany Marshall joining says she's a renounced psychoanalyst at
(11:33):
Doctorbethany Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, she
now has a recurring role in Paris and Love season two.
That said, Doctor Bethany, I don't get it. We've got
men sexting and texting and writing and sending money and
(11:54):
love letters to Susan Smith when she is a bald
faced liar that kills her children in the worst way,
letting her car, her Burgundy Protege go down a ramp
with the two little boys alive, strapped in the back seat.
(12:16):
Why I don't get it. Why would men want to
be with this woman, send her money and sex text
with her? But did you hear her lie? Do you
remember when that happened? Crying in the snotting and the
all that happening. And I want to say, who ever
has my children, they please please bring them home to
(12:41):
us where they belong, knowing full well they drowned strapped
in their car seats.
Speaker 9 (12:48):
Well show how immature she is at the most basic level,
that she wants okaya.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
The most you can say, she's immature. She murdered two
little boys.
Speaker 9 (12:58):
We know she's a social caup, But what beyond the
fact that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there
that would lead to this? And one is an over
attachment to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,
the feeling you have the first thing, are.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
You linking this to double murder? Why this woman did
not get the death penalty, I do not know. And
now there's six guys trying to have sex with are
really ill.
Speaker 9 (13:25):
Butally it's really a pathological attachment to men, like being in.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
A barrel with with a rattlesnake.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Who was that?
Speaker 9 (13:33):
Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't
f fantasize who killed their children often have some really
First of all, they were usually what we call cluster
be Then I.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Really have some sexy measure going on because I'm totally
cutting your mind.
Speaker 9 (13:50):
Okay, So their cluster b which means they have three
different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a
very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children
to get back at the love object. Like I'm going
to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's
(14:10):
hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,
but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.
So it's either I'm going to kill the children to
get back at you, or I'm going to kill the
children if I found a new guy and I don't
want the children to be in the way.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want
you to hear the level of detail that she waves
into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.
I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being
strapped in a car, can't get out, The car goes
(14:51):
underwater a muddy leg and you're in the car screaming
for mommy as that car fills up with water till
you drown. Listen to our cut four Crime online.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks
on the door of a house near John D.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
Long Lake.
Speaker 8 (15:12):
She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells
him to call the police. A black man just carjacked
her at a red light. He had a gun, and
she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,
three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are
still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the
nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.
(15:32):
Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,
and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom
Finley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why
she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.
On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets
with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with
the press.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Okay, note to self, who is Tom Finley? But there's more.
There's more. Listen.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
Susan Smith has carried the lie as far as she can.
When she finally admits what she's done, there never was
a black man with a gun that stole her car
with their kids in the back. She now says she
went out for a drive with her sons buckled into
their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.
She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake
and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith
(16:21):
puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into
the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps
out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions
for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the
vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into
their seats.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Just let that so kN for just one moment, claiming,
you know, why is it, Chris mcdona, that all these
people that want to commit suicide end up killing their
children or their family or somebody else he they miraculously live.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
I mean, just so horrific thought in of itself, right, Nancy,
in the night, I actually drove the entire route that
Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for
her to change her mind and turn around.
Speaker 8 (17:05):
I mean there were.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Stop signs, there were you know, through residential neighborhoods. And
to think that she was saying to the public, you know,
or to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know,
I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it,
et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you
go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies
(17:27):
are strapped in those back seats, and as that car
is going down that ramp. I would submit to you.
She had gotten out of that car almost immediately and
let that car go to your point a couple of
minutes ago. And as that water started to fill that vehicle,
can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing
(17:48):
and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.
It took about six I think between six to fifteen
seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within
a minute it was submerged.
Speaker 9 (18:02):
Yaanthea, It just shows how cold blooded she is. She
could stand on the shore look at the car submerged
and knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives
you insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, who is this woman? Take a listen hour cut
three from crime online dot Com.
Speaker 8 (18:26):
After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's
a baby on the way and the pair decided to
get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and
Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.
The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,
Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of
a wealthy mill owner.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Aha, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,
high profile lawyer joining us from our own law firm,
Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive to be with
this rich guy?
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I think you know, the painted in different ways during
the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony. One
of the theories of the case that was put on
and suspected was that she wanted to be with Thomas Finley.
Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had
two kids, and in a way or in an attempt
(19:24):
to get back together with Finley, who she was having
an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.
The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,
you know, she was someone who was an abused child,
she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she
was frightened of her husband, you know, And so I
(19:47):
think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And
it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,
but unfortunately not.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Here killer mom Susan Smith denied parole after drowning her
two little boys. Her two toat sons murdered locked in
to their car seat strapped in as she gets out
and pushes the car into the water, then watches it submerge,
(20:16):
murdering her two taut boys. She was put behind bars
for drowning the boys, and in the last hours a
board unanimously votes to deny her parole. After she appears
in a jail house court feed, she was emotional and crying.
She says, quote, I know what I did was horrible.
(20:39):
I'm sorry that I put them through that. I wish
I could take that back, I really do. I was
just scared, scared of what I've been scared. But I
didn't murder my children because I was afraid. Has she
ever heard the word div rcee hits the country song,
listen to it. Susan Smith, That's all you had to do.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
You could have been free.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You could have given your husband custody of the children.
He would love to have had them. But no, you
chose to murder them now. Susan Smith's lawyer, Tommy Thomas,
told the barrel Board that Susan Smith had serious mental
health issues and postpartum depression, and as an example, he said,
(21:24):
I could see the pain on her face. I think
she's truly remorseful for what happened. Okay, good she should be,
but that doesn't mean she should walk free. I remember
the case like it was yesterday, isn't it true? Dave
Mack joining us from crime online dot Com that Finley
(21:46):
broke it off with her claiming he did not want
an instant family.
Speaker 8 (21:51):
He did, and Nancy, more to the point, are more
than just saying I don't want kids. There were other
things he stated in there about her and their relationship.
He also cited their different upbringings and that that was
a big stumbling block. Another one the way Susan Smith
acted and flirted with other men. He didn't like that,
(22:13):
so he mentioned three basic things that he really didn't
want an instant family. But these other two things were
mentioned as well, and one was her own behavior of
hitting on other men. But she dismisses that in her
thought process, blames it all on the kids and thinks
she's been get him back if she just gets rid
of that. She doesn't address the fact that she hits
on men all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley
the son of the rich guy, when she and her
husband were what divorce separated?
Speaker 8 (22:45):
What separated? They actually when they were married, they had
several full on separations where they were not living together,
were dating other people, and yet they would then get
back together and it was on and off or I
think I mean after they had the last time. He
was fourteen months old while this happened, so it was
an ongoing process in their relationship that breaking out getting
(23:08):
back together.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Let me get back to Dodgor Bethony Marshall, what do
you make of this? It was always presented that family
broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,
But according to the letter he sent her before she
murdered her to little boys, it was a lot more
than that.
Speaker 9 (23:29):
He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny
of the country and the court and saying, well, I
didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think
a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for
a family and children and he was contemplating that. And
I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who
would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to
be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll
(23:50):
buy any dress, Oh I'll go shopping. Oh, I'll buy
some listics, I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll
just kill my children. I mean just She would just
throw everything at it to get him back. So I
think if he was ambivalent about her, that may have
even incentivized her to kill her children.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were
other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision
to break it off with her. Not only that he
did not want an instant family, but he did not
like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He
(24:28):
didn't want that.
Speaker 9 (24:29):
I think some women relate primarily to men because they
feel they can seduce them, and I think this was
probably her mo that the minute she met a man,
she would be furcacious, she would be overly sexualized, she
would try to attract them. She probably did that all
the time because this is a way of feeling important,
(24:49):
like she's a real person in the real world, and
she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If
it's sexual in an instant then they never become real
pe people to her. They're all just objects love objects
who flatter her.
Speaker 8 (25:04):
Listen, now are cut for Susan Smith is planning a
future with the best catch in the county when she
gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains
he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the
difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men,
and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want
children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior
(25:25):
towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship,
and the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't
want children.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,
and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,
Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic
relationship with at least six men behind bars.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Okay, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Well, there are precursors to today's report of Susan smith
Us relationships with six guys. What precursors will listener ourcut ten.
Speaker 8 (26:07):
A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten
by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth
to an investigation into the matter. While there was no
proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that
she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor
at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.
(26:28):
Cagil admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and
was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.
Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined
for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old
Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In
two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also
pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced
to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan
(26:51):
Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested
positive for an STD.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns
an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She
was sleeping with various prison guards. Just goott Morgan, remind
me what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator,
one of the.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
Most horrible desks that you can even begin to think about.
And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me
about this case, Nancy is that with Alex and mikeel On.
I think it's really important that I say their names
at this moment in time, because they are the victims.
When they were strapped in those little seats in the
(27:35):
back of that Mazda and that tight, little confined place
where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,
had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at
the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,
what's mama doing now? You know, she gets out of
the car and as that car is left and neutral
and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly
(27:56):
sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they
found that about one hundred and twenty feet off of
the shore. The dive team had looked for it for
some period of time. Car was filled with water. Those
kids were still strapped in that back seat, and our
reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,
is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy, they're strapped.
(28:20):
We've all got babies in our families that we've taken
care of. We strapped them in car seats, and you
ever seen a child struggle to get out of the
car seat. They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine that,
only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into your nose,
your little mouth, your eyes, You're running out of oxygen.
Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because there's no oxygen.
(28:44):
You can't catch your breath, and you have no idea.
It's panic that's setting in and it would not have been.
I just wanted to spell any kind of fantasy somebody
might be having right now that this was a sudden
and a quick death.
Speaker 10 (28:59):
It was.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
It was torturous. It was absolutely horrific what these babies
went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, And I'm with you.
I'm still to this day just befuddled why she's not
sitting on death row. And you know, forever and ever
she's getting going with her life. No, isn't she And
(29:20):
those babies died, died at this monster's hands out there
out there in.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
That lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running
to a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had
jumped into her car. And I guess the only red
light in the county. And I feel okay saying that
because where I grew up. We didn't even have a
red light, so out of the entire county, an unknown
(29:47):
assilant jumps into her car at the one red light,
takes her car and murders her children. Okay, this is
the woman these guys want to be with. Speaking of them,
there is a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we
heard about Cagele Cagile, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's
(30:09):
ci Correctional Institute, and what happened with him. We know
that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith turned up
with an std behind bars. But there's more. Take a
listen to our cut eleven. Does she not realize there
are consequences to actions.
Speaker 8 (30:30):
Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost
their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.
Rose says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition
that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling
him she thought he was the nicest officer at the
prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says
things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had
(30:50):
sex with Smith one time, but he cost him everything.
He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and
after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith. He was
sentenced to five years probation.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Take a Lisnower Cut twelve.
Speaker 8 (31:02):
Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.
Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan
Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more
than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she
switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,
to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison
(31:23):
guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with
Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate Secrets
when Smith was moved from one prison to another, that
it was at that point where quote she could no
longer get the mail attention that she used as a
drug unquote, and instead turned to pilled which led.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
To a series of drug infractions.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
In the last hours, a parole board shuts down murder
mom Susan Smith there to defend his two her sons,
David Smith, Susan Smith's ex He says, and I quote,
I'm here to advocate on Michael and Alex's behalf and
as their father, God gives us free choice. She made
(32:14):
free choice that night to end their life. This wasn't
a tragic mistake. She purposely meant to end their lives.
I'm asking that you please deny her parole today. He
was emotional, holding back tears, his face contorted in pain.
(32:40):
Susan Smith's ex husband, the father of Michael and Alex,
David Smith, attended the parole board along with his new
wife and daughter, and Tommy Pope, the prosecutor on the case. Pope,
the former prosecutor, said quote, I believe the jury intended
for her to for her to serve a full life sentence.
(33:03):
They wanted her to spend her life and remorse from
Michael and Alex and.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
What she had done.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And she has spent time focusing on herself, having sex
with prison guards and more. So, wait a minute, while
she was improving herself and thinking about Michael Alex, instead
she was having sex affairs with prison guards and more.
The narrative, her story that she projects is so different
(33:33):
from reality life has not passed her by. She committed
double murder, that that's what happened it's not anyone's fault
but her own. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
I mean, and if life has passed her by, how
does she characterize what she did to her son? She
took their life away, they.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Didn't even have the opportunity to live a life.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
I mean, these were really young kids here. And I
think you know, the pattern of behavior that she's exhibited,
like the infractions that she's picked up while she's been
in prison, I mean, all of this doesn't tend to
show that this is someone who has been rehabilitated while
in prison. I mean, she's still showing those signs of
manipulation that you know she engaged in before she was
(34:24):
convicted and sentence, you know, leading on the nation for
nine days, telling lies about what actually happened, telling lies
and swinging fingers of people that didn't exist. So this
is a really deeply disturbed individual.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and
host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated
at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,
very charming. Think about Scott Paterson or doctor Martin McNeil,
who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan
(35:01):
Smith's family. They say, quote she seems to be happy,
and that she quote always had a messy love life.
She's creating a fictional version of her life and people
are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying
(35:23):
it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic
interludes with her. Chris McDonough, have you ever met a
charming murder defendant? Because I have absolutely Nancy.
Speaker 6 (35:36):
And what's interesting about her is we have to always
remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past
behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she
has always, throughout her entire case and through her life here,
while in prison and even before prison, she always sometimes
(35:59):
projected the words of the day into her vocabulary. And
if we listen real carefully to the minutia of what
she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, please
bring them home. E. She's talking about two suspects, but
she talks about one in terms of a description. And
(36:23):
now if we fast forward that to today, we have
six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that
piece of a puzzle out. You know, that's for the
doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she
is utilizing that behavior still to this day by talking
(36:45):
about money, by talking about sexual TIFFs there between the
two of them, and she hasn't lost a thought from
miss Leopard.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
You know, Joscott Morgan, maybe we just know too much
when it comes to murder, because when I think of
Susan Smith, I immediately think of being trapped strapped in
to a car as it's going down a ramp and
going underwater and seeing the water coming up on either
side and starting to pour in through the windshiels, It
(37:20):
comes up around you and you can't get out. I mean,
the children in this case were three and fourteen months.
Speaker 7 (37:28):
They never had stood a chance within this environment. And
here's another thing that people might not be aware of.
After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,
one other element we have to consider. And again I
go back to the idea that we all have had babies,
(37:50):
you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids
and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is that
the kids are afraid of? Late at night it's darkness,
and it would you would not have been able to
have seen your hand in front of your face, so
Not only are they absent a loving mother who normally
you would hope would take care of them, they're they're disoriented,
(38:14):
they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's
cold and it's dark down there. And that's that goes
to the level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Bottom line, Susan Smith, no parole.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
But here's the kicker.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Even though she's just been tonight parole, she's back up
for parole in just two years. We wait as justice
unfolds and ps Susan Smith, I hope you're listening, devil,
goodbye friend.
Speaker 10 (38:49):
The end
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
In the last hours, murder mom Susan Smith cries sobs,
breaks down in front of a parole board, begging to
be released. She says she has quote improved during her
years behind bars. I wonder if that could be said
of her two little boys, Michael and Alex. She drove
(00:30):
her car into a South Carolina lake and then blamed
an unknown black mail for hijacking her car. What a
load of bs technical legal term. Well, thankfully this time
at least the parole board got it right and saw
through her crocodile tears. That's right, Susan Smith, parole denied. Hello,
(00:56):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us. What exactly happened? What led us to
this day, this moment, these crocodile tears and this parole
board hearing? See if this jogs your memory, listen.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Layol love and here's a lady. You come on dot
Dollar and some guy jumping into a red light with
her car with her two kids in it, and he
took off and he got out of call here at Ohio. Yes, Layol,
let her call and I don't rhy, I need to
go along. Get'm down here and a car. But we
need to add a magna protege.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
What color was it?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
A burgundy magna protege? We're going to don't get him.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Going pay him? They got two.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't
even know where to go first because they got such
awesome experts. But I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.
He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care,
former homicide is of starting to care, getting warm, getting warm,
getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview
(02:07):
Room where I found him. You can find him at
Colcays Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room Former
homicide detective three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.
Chris McDonough, don't you love the degree of detail? Hey?
You know what send me? Sometimes you got to hear
(02:30):
the best stuff? Can you play that one more time? Listen?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Lay love and that is a lady You come on
dot dollar and he's some guy Dan into a red
light with her car with her two kids in it,
and he took he got out of call.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Here at Ohio.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Lay let her call it. I don't I need to
go along, get down here and a car.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
But we need a.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Live body day.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
What color?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Was it a burgundy? Maga protege?
Speaker 5 (03:02):
We don't get him going pay him?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I got tap, I'll go all the detail, Chris McDonough.
She's quote real hysterical and you need to call them
and get him down here right now. And you hear
her feeding details in the background, Nancy, wasn't.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
That the narrative that captivated America?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
How can you be so calm?
Speaker 6 (03:27):
You know, we just get used to it, unfortunately, right
it's when.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know
the end of this story. But the detail. Have you
ever seen perps and they will spin you a yarn
with such incredibly rich detail.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and
that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she
kicked it off right.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,
running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps
out and you know this occurs in rural Union County,
South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And you know,
hold on, Chris mcdona, where do you live, Chris?
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Well, right now, I'm in Arizona. But I lived in
South Carolina right there.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
In Mount Plus, you're very familiar with this area. Let
me go to another country boy like this country girl
right here, just got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten
pretty high falutin. Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet, still waiting on another book to
come out. Host of Bodybag's hit podcast this area, Chris
(04:47):
McDonagh has lived in South Carolina. I've gone to this
scene before. It's extremely rural, and I'm supposed to believe
a guy jumps out of what from behind a stop
sign and hijacks her car and takes off with the
children clearly in the back seat, two little boys.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have
somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether
or not they had an awareness that, you know, these
poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.
The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive
behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as
(05:27):
an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and
I'm going to take a long look at what she
has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,
the line share, the line share of home sides that
we talked about have some kind of familial connection. That
means that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.
So you're going to tell me that a random stranger
(05:48):
just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off
with them and left her standing on the side of
the road weeping.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdona,
I am going along with every he says, but he's
a wily one. You got to really watching watch what
Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect,
but did you hear him say if the unknown male
assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking
(06:18):
right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can
see straight into the back seat from every angle of
the car. It's not like you know, you see those
black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's
going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's
going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at
(06:39):
a shot from the distance, I can see through the
back window, through the back dash, and through the other
side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely
see that children were strapped into car seats in the
back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take
a listen to the nine one one call.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Listen Union one of us, one of five gohead. She
said it with a black male driving aigh born and
protege Affirman did.
Speaker 8 (07:10):
One of fine.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
They had two junloed one fine for one understood these
were small children. These are her children. And she jumped
out of the car and he took the car with
the children and he's headed toy Chest one hundred. The victors,
both quicktors cola family from when I gathered by the call,
(07:33):
they are not This is a stranger that had jumped
in the lady's car at a red light and she
jumped out.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I mean, really, Tara, and I'm leading up to what
Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me tell
you it involves six different men. That said Tara Malick
joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith and Malik,
former state and federal prosecutor. Tara once again blame the
(08:04):
black man. I remember when this happened. I was trying
a case and I looked over at my friend, my colleague,
who went on to be a judge, I might add,
and I went, Herman, have you seen the composite of
the guy that Susan Smith described? And he went, yeah,
(08:26):
I know what you're gonna say. Yeah, it looks just
like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial
partner who had come into court to bail me out
of some sling. I got in with the judge with
some appellate law, trying to suggest that I was right
and whatever I did. But he went, yeah, I've heard
(08:50):
I looked just like this Susan Smith purt and he did.
I mean, think about it, Tara, an innocent person could
have been arrested and probably tried and convicted based on
her fake composite and all of her lies. Like my Herman,
one of my best friends in the DA's office.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and
horrific and terrible.
Speaker 9 (09:17):
And then and then you know, to give this.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
False profile of someone else who may have done it,
wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,
like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of
being picked up for it. And It's just mind boggling
that she would go.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Down this road. You know, I've dealt with a sod
defense many times. I namede that some other dude did it.
So d d here she goes some other dude did it,
and listen to her.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Listen.
Speaker 10 (09:48):
I would like to say to whoever has my children
that they please they please bring them home.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
To us where they belong.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
After nearly thirty years behind bars, Susan Smith says she
should be released. In attendance. Much of it was by
remote her ex husband David Smith, along with prosecutors, all
wearing photos of the two little boys that were murdered
that day, her two sons, Michael and Alex, all of
(10:38):
them opposing parole. Do you remember her motive? Because I do.
She wanted to marry the rich guy in town's son
and he did not want a ready made family.
Speaker 9 (10:57):
I e.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Her two boys, Michael and al so all done. She
killed them. Now let's get married.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
You know, I will never forget when she gave that
tearful plea. Much like the tearful plea she gave the
last hours to the prole board for someone, some unknown
kidnapper to bring her boys home. Oh, she was so convincing,
just like she was in front of the pro board.
Doctor Bethany Marshall joining says she's a renounced psychoanalyst at
(11:33):
Doctorbethany Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, she
now has a recurring role in Paris and Love season two.
That said, Doctor Bethany, I don't get it. We've got
men sexting and texting and writing and sending money and
(11:54):
love letters to Susan Smith when she is a bald
faced liar that kills her children in the worst way,
letting her car, her Burgundy Protege go down a ramp
with the two little boys alive, strapped in the back seat.
(12:16):
Why I don't get it. Why would men want to
be with this woman, send her money and sex text
with her? But did you hear her lie? Do you
remember when that happened? Crying in the snotting and the
all that happening. And I want to say, who ever
has my children, they please please bring them home to
(12:41):
us where they belong, knowing full well they drowned strapped
in their car seats.
Speaker 9 (12:48):
Well show how immature she is at the most basic level,
that she wants okaya.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
The most you can say, she's immature. She murdered two
little boys.
Speaker 9 (12:58):
We know she's a social caup, But what beyond the
fact that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there
that would lead to this? And one is an over
attachment to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,
the feeling you have the first thing, are.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
You linking this to double murder? Why this woman did
not get the death penalty, I do not know. And
now there's six guys trying to have sex with are
really ill.
Speaker 9 (13:25):
Butally it's really a pathological attachment to men, like being in.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
A barrel with with a rattlesnake.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Who was that?
Speaker 9 (13:33):
Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't
f fantasize who killed their children often have some really
First of all, they were usually what we call cluster
be Then I.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Really have some sexy measure going on because I'm totally
cutting your mind.
Speaker 9 (13:50):
Okay, So their cluster b which means they have three
different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a
very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children
to get back at the love object. Like I'm going
to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's
(14:10):
hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,
but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.
So it's either I'm going to kill the children to
get back at you, or I'm going to kill the
children if I found a new guy and I don't
want the children to be in the way.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want
you to hear the level of detail that she waves
into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.
I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being
strapped in a car, can't get out, The car goes
(14:51):
underwater a muddy leg and you're in the car screaming
for mommy as that car fills up with water till
you drown. Listen to our cut four Crime online.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks
on the door of a house near John D.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
Long Lake.
Speaker 8 (15:12):
She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells
him to call the police. A black man just carjacked
her at a red light. He had a gun, and
she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,
three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are
still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the
nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.
(15:32):
Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,
and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom
Finley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why
she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.
On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets
with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with
the press.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Okay, note to self, who is Tom Finley? But there's more.
There's more. Listen.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
Susan Smith has carried the lie as far as she can.
When she finally admits what she's done, there never was
a black man with a gun that stole her car
with their kids in the back. She now says she
went out for a drive with her sons buckled into
their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.
She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake
and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith
(16:21):
puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into
the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps
out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions
for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the
vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into
their seats.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Just let that so kN for just one moment, claiming,
you know, why is it, Chris mcdona, that all these
people that want to commit suicide end up killing their
children or their family or somebody else he they miraculously live.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
I mean, just so horrific thought in of itself, right, Nancy,
in the night, I actually drove the entire route that
Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for
her to change her mind and turn around.
Speaker 8 (17:05):
I mean there were.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Stop signs, there were you know, through residential neighborhoods. And
to think that she was saying to the public, you know,
or to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know,
I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it,
et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you
go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies
(17:27):
are strapped in those back seats, and as that car
is going down that ramp. I would submit to you.
She had gotten out of that car almost immediately and
let that car go to your point a couple of
minutes ago. And as that water started to fill that vehicle,
can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing
(17:48):
and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.
It took about six I think between six to fifteen
seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within
a minute it was submerged.
Speaker 9 (18:02):
Yaanthea, It just shows how cold blooded she is. She
could stand on the shore look at the car submerged
and knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives
you insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, who is this woman? Take a listen hour cut
three from crime online dot Com.
Speaker 8 (18:26):
After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's
a baby on the way and the pair decided to
get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and
Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.
The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,
Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of
a wealthy mill owner.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Aha, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,
high profile lawyer joining us from our own law firm,
Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive to be with
this rich guy?
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I think you know, the painted in different ways during
the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony. One
of the theories of the case that was put on
and suspected was that she wanted to be with Thomas Finley.
Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had
two kids, and in a way or in an attempt
(19:24):
to get back together with Finley, who she was having
an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.
The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,
you know, she was someone who was an abused child,
she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she
was frightened of her husband, you know, And so I
(19:47):
think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And
it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,
but unfortunately not.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Here killer mom Susan Smith denied parole after drowning her
two little boys. Her two toat sons murdered locked in
to their car seat strapped in as she gets out
and pushes the car into the water, then watches it submerge,
(20:16):
murdering her two taut boys. She was put behind bars
for drowning the boys, and in the last hours a
board unanimously votes to deny her parole. After she appears
in a jail house court feed, she was emotional and crying.
She says, quote, I know what I did was horrible.
(20:39):
I'm sorry that I put them through that. I wish
I could take that back, I really do. I was
just scared, scared of what I've been scared. But I
didn't murder my children because I was afraid. Has she
ever heard the word div rcee hits the country song,
listen to it. Susan Smith, That's all you had to do.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
You could have been free.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You could have given your husband custody of the children.
He would love to have had them. But no, you
chose to murder them now. Susan Smith's lawyer, Tommy Thomas,
told the barrel Board that Susan Smith had serious mental
health issues and postpartum depression, and as an example, he said,
(21:24):
I could see the pain on her face. I think
she's truly remorseful for what happened. Okay, good she should be,
but that doesn't mean she should walk free. I remember
the case like it was yesterday, isn't it true? Dave
Mack joining us from crime online dot Com that Finley
(21:46):
broke it off with her claiming he did not want
an instant family.
Speaker 8 (21:51):
He did, and Nancy, more to the point, are more
than just saying I don't want kids. There were other
things he stated in there about her and their relationship.
He also cited their different upbringings and that that was
a big stumbling block. Another one the way Susan Smith
acted and flirted with other men. He didn't like that,
(22:13):
so he mentioned three basic things that he really didn't
want an instant family. But these other two things were
mentioned as well, and one was her own behavior of
hitting on other men. But she dismisses that in her
thought process, blames it all on the kids and thinks
she's been get him back if she just gets rid
of that. She doesn't address the fact that she hits
on men all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley
the son of the rich guy, when she and her
husband were what divorce separated?
Speaker 8 (22:45):
What separated? They actually when they were married, they had
several full on separations where they were not living together,
were dating other people, and yet they would then get
back together and it was on and off or I
think I mean after they had the last time. He
was fourteen months old while this happened, so it was
an ongoing process in their relationship that breaking out getting
(23:08):
back together.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Let me get back to Dodgor Bethony Marshall, what do
you make of this? It was always presented that family
broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,
But according to the letter he sent her before she
murdered her to little boys, it was a lot more
than that.
Speaker 9 (23:29):
He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny
of the country and the court and saying, well, I
didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think
a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for
a family and children and he was contemplating that. And
I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who
would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to
be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll
(23:50):
buy any dress, Oh I'll go shopping. Oh, I'll buy
some listics, I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll
just kill my children. I mean just She would just
throw everything at it to get him back. So I
think if he was ambivalent about her, that may have
even incentivized her to kill her children.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were
other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision
to break it off with her. Not only that he
did not want an instant family, but he did not
like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He
(24:28):
didn't want that.
Speaker 9 (24:29):
I think some women relate primarily to men because they
feel they can seduce them, and I think this was
probably her mo that the minute she met a man,
she would be furcacious, she would be overly sexualized, she
would try to attract them. She probably did that all
the time because this is a way of feeling important,
(24:49):
like she's a real person in the real world, and
she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If
it's sexual in an instant then they never become real
pe people to her. They're all just objects love objects
who flatter her.
Speaker 8 (25:04):
Listen, now are cut for Susan Smith is planning a
future with the best catch in the county when she
gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains
he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the
difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men,
and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want
children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior
(25:25):
towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship,
and the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't
want children.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,
and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,
Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic
relationship with at least six men behind bars.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Okay, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Well, there are precursors to today's report of Susan smith
Us relationships with six guys. What precursors will listener ourcut ten.
Speaker 8 (26:07):
A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten
by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth
to an investigation into the matter. While there was no
proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that
she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor
at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.
(26:28):
Cagil admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and
was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.
Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined
for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old
Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In
two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also
pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced
to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan
(26:51):
Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested
positive for an STD.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns
an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She
was sleeping with various prison guards. Just goott Morgan, remind
me what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator,
one of the.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
Most horrible desks that you can even begin to think about.
And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me
about this case, Nancy is that with Alex and mikeel On.
I think it's really important that I say their names
at this moment in time, because they are the victims.
When they were strapped in those little seats in the
(27:35):
back of that Mazda and that tight, little confined place
where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,
had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at
the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,
what's mama doing now? You know, she gets out of
the car and as that car is left and neutral
and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly
(27:56):
sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they
found that about one hundred and twenty feet off of
the shore. The dive team had looked for it for
some period of time. Car was filled with water. Those
kids were still strapped in that back seat, and our
reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,
is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy, they're strapped.
(28:20):
We've all got babies in our families that we've taken
care of. We strapped them in car seats, and you
ever seen a child struggle to get out of the
car seat. They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine that,
only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into your nose,
your little mouth, your eyes, You're running out of oxygen.
Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because there's no oxygen.
(28:44):
You can't catch your breath, and you have no idea.
It's panic that's setting in and it would not have been.
I just wanted to spell any kind of fantasy somebody
might be having right now that this was a sudden
and a quick death.
Speaker 10 (28:59):
It was.
Speaker 7 (29:00):
It was torturous. It was absolutely horrific what these babies
went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, And I'm with you.
I'm still to this day just befuddled why she's not
sitting on death row. And you know, forever and ever
she's getting going with her life. No, isn't she And
(29:20):
those babies died, died at this monster's hands out there
out there in.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
That lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running
to a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had
jumped into her car. And I guess the only red
light in the county. And I feel okay saying that
because where I grew up. We didn't even have a
red light, so out of the entire county, an unknown
(29:47):
assilant jumps into her car at the one red light,
takes her car and murders her children. Okay, this is
the woman these guys want to be with. Speaking of them,
there is a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we
heard about Cagele Cagile, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's
(30:09):
ci Correctional Institute, and what happened with him. We know
that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith turned up
with an std behind bars. But there's more. Take a
listen to our cut eleven. Does she not realize there
are consequences to actions.
Speaker 8 (30:30):
Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost
their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.
Rose says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition
that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling
him she thought he was the nicest officer at the
prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says
things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had
(30:50):
sex with Smith one time, but he cost him everything.
He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and
after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith. He was
sentenced to five years probation.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Take a Lisnower Cut twelve.
Speaker 8 (31:02):
Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.
Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan
Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more
than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she
switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,
to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison
(31:23):
guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with
Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate Secrets
when Smith was moved from one prison to another, that
it was at that point where quote she could no
longer get the mail attention that she used as a
drug unquote, and instead turned to pilled which led.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
To a series of drug infractions.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
In the last hours, a parole board shuts down murder
mom Susan Smith there to defend his two her sons,
David Smith, Susan Smith's ex He says, and I quote,
I'm here to advocate on Michael and Alex's behalf and
as their father, God gives us free choice. She made
(32:14):
free choice that night to end their life. This wasn't
a tragic mistake. She purposely meant to end their lives.
I'm asking that you please deny her parole today. He
was emotional, holding back tears, his face contorted in pain.
(32:40):
Susan Smith's ex husband, the father of Michael and Alex,
David Smith, attended the parole board along with his new
wife and daughter, and Tommy Pope, the prosecutor on the case. Pope,
the former prosecutor, said quote, I believe the jury intended
for her to for her to serve a full life sentence.
(33:03):
They wanted her to spend her life and remorse from
Michael and Alex and.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
What she had done.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And she has spent time focusing on herself, having sex
with prison guards and more. So, wait a minute, while
she was improving herself and thinking about Michael Alex, instead
she was having sex affairs with prison guards and more.
The narrative, her story that she projects is so different
(33:33):
from reality life has not passed her by. She committed
double murder, that that's what happened it's not anyone's fault
but her own. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
I mean, and if life has passed her by, how
does she characterize what she did to her son? She
took their life away, they.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Didn't even have the opportunity to live a life.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
I mean, these were really young kids here. And I
think you know, the pattern of behavior that she's exhibited,
like the infractions that she's picked up while she's been
in prison, I mean, all of this doesn't tend to
show that this is someone who has been rehabilitated while
in prison. I mean, she's still showing those signs of
manipulation that you know she engaged in before she was
(34:24):
convicted and sentence, you know, leading on the nation for
nine days, telling lies about what actually happened, telling lies
and swinging fingers of people that didn't exist. So this
is a really deeply disturbed individual.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and
host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated
at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,
very charming. Think about Scott Paterson or doctor Martin McNeil,
who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan
(35:01):
Smith's family. They say, quote she seems to be happy,
and that she quote always had a messy love life.
She's creating a fictional version of her life and people
are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying
(35:23):
it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic
interludes with her. Chris McDonough, have you ever met a
charming murder defendant? Because I have absolutely Nancy.
Speaker 6 (35:36):
And what's interesting about her is we have to always
remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past
behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she
has always, throughout her entire case and through her life here,
while in prison and even before prison, she always sometimes
(35:59):
projected the words of the day into her vocabulary. And
if we listen real carefully to the minutia of what
she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, please
bring them home. E. She's talking about two suspects, but
she talks about one in terms of a description. And
(36:23):
now if we fast forward that to today, we have
six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that
piece of a puzzle out. You know, that's for the
doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she
is utilizing that behavior still to this day by talking
(36:45):
about money, by talking about sexual TIFFs there between the
two of them, and she hasn't lost a thought from
miss Leopard.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
You know, Joscott Morgan, maybe we just know too much
when it comes to murder, because when I think of
Susan Smith, I immediately think of being trapped strapped in
to a car as it's going down a ramp and
going underwater and seeing the water coming up on either
side and starting to pour in through the windshiels, It
(37:20):
comes up around you and you can't get out. I mean,
the children in this case were three and fourteen months.
Speaker 7 (37:28):
They never had stood a chance within this environment. And
here's another thing that people might not be aware of.
After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,
one other element we have to consider. And again I
go back to the idea that we all have had babies,
(37:50):
you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids
and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is that
the kids are afraid of? Late at night it's darkness,
and it would you would not have been able to
have seen your hand in front of your face, so
Not only are they absent a loving mother who normally
you would hope would take care of them, they're they're disoriented,
(38:14):
they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's
cold and it's dark down there. And that's that goes
to the level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Bottom line, Susan Smith, no parole.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
But here's the kicker.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Even though she's just been tonight parole, she's back up
for parole in just two years. We wait as justice
unfolds and ps Susan Smith, I hope you're listening, devil,
goodbye friend.
Speaker 10 (38:49):
The end
Host
Nancy Grace
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