December 3, 2024 • 41 mins
Savannah Copeland cheered at Powell Middle School’s first basketball game of the year. Her father, Michael Copeland, got up early before the rest of the family and was pulling into work when he received a call from his wife, Amanda. She told him that Savannah was not in her bed when they woke up, and she couldn’t find her. Savannah was missing.
Michael rushed back home to search for their daughter. Using the Life360 app, which tracks phone movements, they were able to see the path Savannah had taken and the time of her movements. The app indicated that she went missing between midnight and 2:30 a.m., but it did not show her exact location. Starting in the general area, the family went door-to-door asking if anyone had a doorbell camera that might have recorded the direction Savannah was heading, but they had no luck.
They contacted the Knox County Sheriff’s Office, and deputies began searching for Savannah Copeland. Nearly 12 hours after the deputies were called in, Michael Copeland heard sirens and immediately feared they were for Savannah. A teenager walking along a popular trail behind a public swimming pool in the Broadacres neighborhood of Powell found Savannah’s lifeless body.
Deputies arrived at the scene and secured the area. Detectives from Major Crimes and Juvenile Crimes, along with the Knox County Medical Examiner, began collecting evidence and processing the scene. Savannah Copeland had been stabbed multiple times with what appeared to be a small knife and was left to bleed to death alone on the dirt trail.
been stabbed multiple times by what appears to be a small knife and left to bleed to death alone on the dirt trail.
JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:
- Philip Dubé – Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy
- Dr. Jorey Krawczyn – Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. – Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide”
- Barry Hutchison Sr. – Former Law Enforcement, Owner & Chief Investigator for Barry & Associates Investigative Services LLC
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a beautiful young teen cheerleader
Frenzy stabbed by a teen boy dad having to use
a tracking app to try to find his girl's body.
(00:20):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Savannah Copeland is a thirteen year old middle schooler in Tennessee.
She has big dreams of becoming a forensic anthropologist and
is an all star athlete, excelling in gymnastics, karate, and cheerleading.
But things take a deadly turn when Savannah vanishes in
the middle of the night.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Can you imagine you wake up in the morning, you
get everything ready for your children, and then wake them
for breakfast, and your.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Child is not there.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
That is what this little thirteen year old cheerleader's parents experienced.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Listen, She's never.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Gone out as far as I know, you know. I
mean I could look at her life three sixty every
single day and I could see she didn't sneak out.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
She never went out.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
We never had to worry about that.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
From our friends.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Wat E six Michael Coplan, little thirteen year old Savannah's father,
trying to make sense of what happened that horrible night.
First of all Life three sixty. We've all heard of it.
Many people know about it, many people don't what it is.
To Barry Hutchinson, joining US, veteran law enforcement and detective
(01:38):
now owner and chief investigator at Barry and Associates Investigative Services. Barry,
it's quite an investigative tool. Life three sixty explain.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
It can be used to track the moonments of whoever
the phone belongs to. As you know, Nancy, the cell
towers phones can be pained on every location wherever the
phone sends signals and the triangulation pattern, and it's really
really helpful to track the movements of victims and where
they were particular times, to establish motives and everything else involved.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
In the case.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Straight out to Lauren Colin, joining US an investigative reporter
co host Primetime Crime on YouTube. You can find her
at Popcrime dot Tv. Lauren, thank you for being with us.
Explain to me what happened that night, because I find
it very unusual. This little thirteen year old girl was
always where she said she would be be it at school,
(02:34):
at church, at cheerleading practice on the way between those
three locations. Never once had she not been home when
she was supposed to be home. What happened that night?
What do we know at the beginning? What did the
parents find that morning?
Speaker 7 (02:51):
What we do know is that, as you mentioned, her
parents woke up and she wasn't there.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
They panicked.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
I used air tags for my kids, but I have
her Life three sixty is also amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So her dad pulled the app.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
Open and he realized that, oh my gosh, she's nearby.
She was sort of at this trail by this community pool.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Lauren, When you say the trail led along side of pool,
is that the community pool?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
We're talking about the neighborhood pool, so to speak.
Speaker 7 (03:24):
Yes, it's the broad Acre's neighborhood Nancy, And if you
look online, this neighborhood is described as warm and charming.
It's actually a very popular pool and a popular trail.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay, I want to talk to Barry Hutchinson again, law
enforcement and owner of Barry and Associate's Investigative Services. Barry,
when you look at Life three sixty, okay, be kiss.
I've got two teams. I don't know how this happened,
but they just turned seventeen and they're always going in
different directions. Now I know where they're supposed to be.
(03:57):
But this Life three sixty is amazing. It can tell
you if they're on foot because it shows little sneakers walking.
It can tell if they're sitting in a car, even
if the car is not moving. It can tell if
they're in a moving car and how fast the car
is going. And it shows you a map where they're headed,
(04:17):
what street they're on. And my children have it on
me as well. So another feature of Life three sixty,
Barry Hutchinson, is that if you know the right button
to push, it can show you their trail that day.
And that's what Lauren Colin was talking about, the trail,
So explain the trail. It almost looks like a digitized
(04:42):
footprint line little dots showing you where they've been.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
How does it do that, Barry.
Speaker 6 (04:48):
It's all done by satellite and geo fencing. It's a
very very great tool. This shows everything. But one thing
I want you to keep in mind also doesn't necessarily
one hundred percent that's where the person was. It means
that's where the phone was.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Okay, Barry Hutchinson.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I don't know how old your children are, but if
you have a child that seteen I guarantee you their
phone is with them, unless you're actually you're right, Barry,
unless it's been physically taken away from them. So Lauren
Colin joining me, investigative reporter, Lauren, you're telling.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Me that the dad opens up the Life thy sixty
app trying to find out where is she.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Savannah's not in her bed, and he looks at where
she's been because apparently her.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Phone by that time was dead.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
What happened exactly the night before she disappears?
Speaker 8 (05:44):
Listen getting a call that his daughter is missing. Michael
Copeland heads back home to search for Savannah using the
Life three sixty app that shows where the phone goes.
They could see the path that Savannah took, and at
one time the app shows the family that Savannah when
missing between midnight and two thirty eight, but does not
show her exact location. Starting in the general location, the
(06:05):
family goes door to door asking if someone has a
doorbelled camera that might have seen what direction Savannah was
going in to no avail.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Lauren Colin, that is heartbreaking. So the parents see this trail,
the dad does, and they start walking the trail door
to door asking people, have you seen Savannah? And in
my book don't be a victim. I ask parents, guardians,
caretakers to keep photos of their children, current photos on
(06:36):
their phone and any other identifying features that they can
show people immediately, and to always know what their children
are wearing, what their backpack looks like, anything about them. Now,
tell me about this so here it is first thing
in the morning. Dad goes to work, He gets to
call Savannah, it's not here. He races home and they
(06:58):
start going door to door along this life three sixty trail.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 7 (07:04):
Yes, they were frantically looking for their child, and they
followed the path that they saw on the app, which
was so helpful until they were able to connect with
law enforcement and finally go to the trail behind the
community pool.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
What is hard to believe is that many people have
actually found fault with a little thirteen year old cheerleader
for leaving her home in the middle of the night
based on her history. As I always say, when you
don't know a horse, look at his track record. I
(07:45):
have never once seen my daughter or son or know
of them crawling out the window or leaving the house
in the middle of the night.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Does that mean it will never happen? No, I'm just
saying it never happen.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
When you don't know what's going to happen, you look
back at what has already happened. In this case, this
little girl had never left home before. Savannah Coplan, just
thirteen years old, all caught up in middle school and cheerleading,
had never snuck out before.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So why that.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Night of all nights in thirteen years, it had never happened.
And I submit she was lured out, lured out, bringing
to mind the case of another thirteen year old little girl,
Nicole Lovell. Nicole Lovell, we believe was lured out by
(08:44):
a phone app or an online dating apps such as
kit Kik, Lured out of her home. Her mother discovers
the next morning she's gone. Nicole also lured out by
an older teen boy. She also is stabbed dead and
(09:08):
her body found beside the road. It's a phenomena straight
out to Philip Dubey, joining US high profile lawyer out
of LA with the Public Defender's Office.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
A Philip teen crime.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I always have considered teen killers as more dangerous than
adults because they.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Don't have a conscience.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yet they don't understand the gravity of what they're doing.
So they are acting without any moral compass at all,
as in the case I just told you about Nicole Lovell,
just thirteen years old, who was lured out of her
home with her mom by an older teen David Eisenhower,
(09:57):
who I believe had been a valedictorian small private school
before he went on to be an.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Athlete scholar at college.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
He had just gotten there seventeen ish years old, luring
this little girl out because he did not want anyone
to find out about their sex relationship. That's what happened
right there. So, the luring out of a little girl
thirteen years old, like Savannah Copeland, I find it very
(10:27):
difficult to understand how people believe that.
Speaker 9 (10:30):
How people blame the child, Well, first of all, it
depends on what you mean by luring out. If the
child was being lured out to be killed, and yes,
that's a different analysis, But if the child was being
lured out just to hook up, get to know one another,
and it's sort of like that Romeo and Judy.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Game thirty in the morning, Dubey, I've told many a joury,
nothing good happens after midnight.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
If you're getting.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Lured out your bedroom with your parents at midnight.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
It is not for anything good. I mean, do you
have children for Pete's sake?
Speaker 9 (11:04):
No, I understand know, and this is exactly why.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Well there you got. Why did I even ask you
a question? You know, when you do have children, you're
gonna understand.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
There's no good reason for them to be leaving the
home at midnight.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
They were lured, and it's not for a good reason.
What to go have milk and cookies.
Speaker 9 (11:23):
The luring takes two. The child could have said, no,
I'm not turning out in each other.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I've got a teen year old girl need to get
to know somebody at two thirty am.
Speaker 9 (11:33):
Welcome to the twenty first century. Where do you think
we are? Nowadays? Kids communicate online, they communicate through their phones.
They want to hook up, they want to get to
know one another, and mom and dad's certainly not going
to allow it at that hour. So what do they do?
They sneak out? You know, the real question is.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Maybe in your world, maybe you snuck out at two am,
But that's not what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yes, I know about cell phones.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I bought my children, so I pay the monthly bill
for their cell phones. Yes, I know about cell phones.
But that's a whole another thing. Having a cell phone
and getting lured out of your home where your everybody's
asleep and you have to sneak out at twelve midnight.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
That is luring. You know what. I can't talk to you.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Doctor Jory Crawsen joining us a psychologist faculty at Saint
Leo University and consulted with the Blue Wall Institute, author
of Operation SOS. Doctor Jory, can you talk some sense
into Dubay. There's no good reason, no innocent reason for
a child just thirteen, she'd just turned thirteen, for Pete's sake,
(12:54):
to get lured out of her home with her parents
at midnight.
Speaker 10 (13:00):
There's no good reason. But there is a reason, some motivation,
some enhancement, something to get her out of that home.
The big key will be, you know, you get more
information off of that phone. If there were text messages,
or if he got close to the home, the home
Wi Fi would register on his phone. There's got to
(13:22):
be some motivation and that's got to be documented, and
it can be documented through that phone.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Tennessee teens Savannah Copeland has vanished suddenly during the night,
and her father has not heard from her for hours.
Where is thirteen year old Tennessee cheerleader Savannah?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And then mom and Dad's worst nightmare, worst nightmare comes true.
Speaker 11 (13:48):
At around four forty five this afternoon, through dispatch, we
received the call on a possible deceased body on a
trail over a Broad Acre subdivision. Our authors responded to
that did find a body.
Speaker 12 (14:07):
Reaching out to the Knox County Sheriff's Office, deputies begin
searching for Savannah Copeland. Nearly twelve hours after deputies are
called in to help search, Michael Copeland here sirens and
says he knew they had to be for Savannah. A
teen walking along a popular trail that runs behind a
public swimming pool in the Broad Acres neighborhood in Powell,
finds the lifeless body of Savannah Copeland. Savannah Copeland has
(14:29):
been stabbed multiple times by what appears to be a
small knife and left to bleed to death alone on
the dirt trail.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You're hearing our friend Shareff Tom Spangler with Knox County
Tennessee Sheriff's Office along with our friends at WAT E
six to doctor Kendall Crown's joining US renowned chief medical
examiner at Terrant County that's Fort Worth and a steam
lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns,
(14:56):
thank you for being with us. How can you look
at Malta stabbings and determine a when there's overlapping stabs,
how many times the victim has been stabbed and two
that the knife use the cutting instrument was, as it
(15:17):
has said been said shallow.
Speaker 13 (15:20):
So you can look at the stab wounds and get
an actual count. Sometimes when they crisscross an overlap, you
can still get an idea based on how the other
stab wounds, what the stab wounds would look like, and
kind of separate out the ones that have crisscross or
overlapped and get an.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Approximate account account.
Speaker 13 (15:39):
Now, determining whether the knife is a short blade or
a long blade can be difficult because the body has
what is called elasticity, or when you push in it
can deform a little bit, and so you can shove
a short bladed knife in deeper than the actual length
of the blades. So determining the overall blade length sometimes
can be difficult, but you can get a rough approximation
(16:03):
depending on the depth of the stab wound.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Back to the overlapping stab wounds. And I encounter this
in the investigation in the stabbing death of Travis Alexander
by Jody Arius May she Rot in Hell. He was stabbed,
and it was argued over and over and over how
(16:25):
many times Travis had been stabbed before he was shot
in the head. Some authority said twenty seven, twenty eight,
twenty nine, and thirty times due to overlapping stab wounds
where you are in a frenzy stab mode and you
stab repeatedly, and some of the stab wounds are actually
(16:49):
exactly where other stab wounds are. Now, the playability of
human flesh also lends to confusion in determining how many
stab wounds explain.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
So those are what is called mees lines.
Speaker 13 (17:06):
It's what when your surgeon is doing an operation, they
try to cut along those lines to make it so
the skin doesn't pull apart and creates less of a scar.
So when you're being stabbed, they're not concerned about you're cosmetics,
so they'll go against these knees lines, and the skin
itself will pull apart and make the wounds look gaping
(17:27):
or enlarged. Based on that pulling a part of the skin.
And again also with stab wounds, you have to consider
that they don't necessarily just stick the knife in, but
they will also stick it in and then pull it down,
making large gaping holes as well. So they can be
very confusing when you get multiple stab wounds of this nature,
which we generally call overkilled because you don't need to
(17:50):
stab someone that many times to kill them.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
In this case, it was determined very quickly that a
small knife was used to murder the thirteen old cheerleader,
Savannah Copeland. And let me add she has a twin brother.
She has two brothers.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Let me think their names.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Twin brother Casey and other brother Britain. As I recall
that said, a special bond between twins is like no
other boy girl twins and another brother. That said, back
(18:31):
to the number of stabbings and the assumption that a
small knife was used, A small knife, and this is
probative as well, and I'll explain later. A small knife
is deemed to be two to six inches long. Okay,
(18:53):
could that be a pocket knife? Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Yes, that could definitely be a pocket knife.
Speaker 13 (19:00):
Usually they're small blades that are opened and fixed.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Another issue doctor kill the Crown's and believe me, all
of this is critical as it comes to proving this case.
We know all about Brian Coburger, right. We wish we didn't,
but we did. In that case, the killer, who the
state says is Brian Coburger, murdered four people and what
appeared to be a frenzy stabbing because they were slashed
(19:27):
and stabbed multiple times. It was anything but a frenzy stabbing.
In that case, a fixed blade knife was used. How
is that different from a pocket knife? And how can
you tell from the stab wounds that a fixed blade
or a shallow knife such as a pocket knife was used.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
How can you differentiate that? This is important?
Speaker 13 (19:49):
So pocket knives when you open them up, will become
fixed at the end when you lock it into place,
so it will be a fixed blade at that point.
One thing you can look for with a pocket knife,
if it's driven all the way into the hilt, it
will leave a basically an abrasion, kind of a semicircular
abrasion around the stab wound itself. If you're using a
(20:11):
larger fixed blade knife, you can get similar similar injuries
when the knife is shoved in all the way again
to the hilt or the cross guard, whatever you want
to say, and it will leave a pattern abrasion marks
on there. So what you're looking for with the pocket
knife as you look for those characteristics kind of abrasions
(20:31):
around the side of the stab wound, whereas if you
have a large fixed knife you look for this the
abrasions from the cross guard itself.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
A gruesome discovery along a popular trail path. Thirteen year
old Savannah Copeland's body has been found brutally stabbed, just
hours after she's gone missing. Who killed the thirteen year
old athlete?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Who lord a thirteen year old little girl out of
her home while her parents were sleeping after midnight. Now,
to listen to defense attorney Philip Dubay, who does not
have children, I might add.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
That's just normal. It's not normal.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
It is normal for teens, even children to communicate on
their phones and their tablets, but getting lured out of
your home after midnight or at any time is not normal.
And why would you do that after midnight so the
parents can't know unless it was for a nefarious reason.
(21:33):
We're talking about a thirteen year old little girl just
turned one of a set of twins, her brother and
other siblings left behind to add to the tragedy, if
that can even be imagined.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
The purp is identified.
Speaker 11 (21:54):
Tonight just around nine pm, detectives identified a person of
interest and arrested a fifteen year old male and is
being charged with second degree murder in the death of
a thirteen year old young lady.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
A fifteen year old boy just turned By the way,
you were just hearing share of Tom Spangler of Knox County,
Tennessee Sheriff's Office from WAT six.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
But the dad, Savannah's father, weighs in it was a
betrayal of trust.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
I'm angry at this kid's family that I have opinions about.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Now, not only a fifteen year old boy just turned fifteen,
but also known to the.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Family a family friend.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
You heard of Michael Copeland, Savannah's dad, speaking to our
friends at WAT E six. He calls it a betrayal
of trust. He said he's angry at the boy's family
that he now has opinions about. I'd like to hear
what those opinions are. Why was the boy out at
that time of night?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Why was he luring a.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Little girl who wo just turned thirteen out of her home?
So many questions swirling right now, but I want to
circle back to doctor Kendall Crowns joining US Medical Examiner
at Arrant County Chief Medical Examiner at Arrant County, Savannah.
A thirteen year old little girl bled out. She didn't
(23:31):
get apparently stabbed in the heart, so she died instantly.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
She laid there in the middle of the night, all
alone in the.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Woods, as her life's blood slipped out of her. How
long would it have taken her to die, doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 13 (23:51):
If she's not stabbed in the heart, It depends on
what vessel has hit, how many times she's stabbed. It
can be minutes to anywhere from a few minutes to
ten to fifteen minutes, depending on what gets stepped.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Veterman's trying lawyer, Philip Dubay, defense attorney out of LA
So this may have been a frenzy attack with so
many stab wounds. But given the probative evidence, the evidence
we're going to find out at autopsy, he would have
left her there on the ground in the woods at
(24:25):
two thirty am, all alone and walked away as she died.
Speaker 9 (24:33):
Thoughts, Well, first of all, you're asking a fifteen year
old to think like an adult and to render aid
and to try to get help.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I'm asking you your opinion on that. Is it anything
but cold blood? Because he could have called for help
to save her, but he didn't.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
No.
Speaker 9 (24:49):
One of the clues is that the prosecutions filed this
as a second degree. A first degree in Tennessee would
be a premeditated killing. This was clearly unpremeditated, which is
probably why they filed it as a second If it
were truly alluring that showed he had murder on his
mind by keeping an unshallow folding knife on his person,
(25:12):
then that clearly shows an intent to kill. It sounds
like something erupted. There was some type of paroxism, if
you will, of fury out on that dirt trail where
he suddenly erupted in blind rage and stabbed her up.
But I don't think it was planned. I think it
was spur of the moment, which is why they're going
to do a transfer hearing, at which time the judge
(25:32):
will decide if this kid stands trial as an adult.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I would like to correct you. In Tennessee, the law
defines second degree murder as one of two types and
one of those types. Is a knowing killing of another,
repeat a knowing killing of another. It is not a
(25:56):
voluntary manslain such as you are describing.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Under the law. When we hear the words knowing, that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Means that you have a mensreea, that you have an intent,
a knowledge of what you're doing, A knowing killing.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
This is not a voluntary manslaughter.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Is not a dui where you get drunk but you
did not intend on actually killing somebody.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
This is a knowing killing.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
As you just try to pull the wool over my
eyes in Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
It's a knowing killing. That's murder.
Speaker 9 (26:34):
Tee, No, I understand, but remember there's two ways you
can do it, explicitly or implicitly. If you stabbed her
four or five times and kept doing it. Yes, it
is so reckless that anybody could infer subjectively and objectively
an intent to kill without actually uttering the words I
am going to take you out. Your life is over.
(26:54):
The conduct of engaging in repeated stabbing suggests it implies
that intent to who do you.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Think you're talking to? Do you think I just fell
off the turnip truck. I have tried many many homicides.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Don't try to muddy the water by spouting out the
definitions under the law of implicit and express intent. Because
the law says murder can be proved by implicit evidence,
implicit intents or express Now implicit, let me.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Start with express.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's when I say, dobet, I'm killing you now, and
then I shoot you. My words have expressly shown I
intend to kill you. Implicit means the jury can judge
by the actions or other extrinsic evidence, such as repeat stabbing.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
If he did not mean to.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Kill her, then why stab her over and over and
over and leave.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Her to bleed out dead? You know, so all of.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Your legal mumbo jumbo, don't even try that with me
debate because the law says intent can be proven implicitly
or expressly. And I would argue to a jury that
when this many stabs, he had to intend to kill her,
which supports a knowing killing, which is murdered too under
(28:17):
Tennessee law.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Are you saying that's wrong?
Speaker 5 (28:19):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:20):
But the endgame here is to spare this kid is
transferred to the adult court.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Just waste my time.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
No, the victory would be to keep the kid in
juvenile court because he would max out. I think at
age twenty one, whereas if he's found unsuitable for juvenile court,
he'll go upstairs to adult court, where he could in
theory do up to sixty years. And by the way,
it was brilliant for the prosecution not to file this
as the first degree because the jury could come back
(28:49):
or the court could come back with a life without
parole type sentence, So at some point this young man
will get out.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
A fifteen year old boy is taken into custody after
the brutal stabbing death of thirteen year old Tennessee cheerleader
Savannah Copeland.
Speaker 12 (29:03):
Investigators are not saying what led them to arrest fifteen
year old Malachiah Harris for the murder of Savannah Copeland.
Harris is someone the Copeland family knows, someone they have befriended.
Investigators haven't said what the motive for the murder is yet,
but Malachia Harris's charge was second degree murder in the
death of the teen.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
To Lauren Colin, investigative reporter, Lauren explain to me how
she was found. How was thirteen year old Savannah Copland found?
Speaker 7 (29:29):
While her parents were searching for her nancy, they heard
sirens in the distance and they thought to themselves, oh
my gosh, this can't be good. And unfortunately, while a
teen was walking the trail, she came across Savannah's body
and called the authorities.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I'm wondering how long this little girl suffered. A petition
released by the court accuses fifteen year old Malachi Harris
of stabbing Savannah multiple times with a pocket knife he
took with him that night when he lured her out
of her home after midnight, leaving her alone on the trail,
(30:08):
telling no one. Her body laid there undiscovered until late
the next day, when eighteen walking the trail finds her.
Lifeless crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
To Lauren Cohen again, I understand.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Prosecutors announced they will try Malachi Harris as an adult
they want to.
Speaker 7 (30:44):
And on January fourteenth, there is going to be a
hearing that will determine if he will be tried as
an adult. But in the meantime, he is being held
at the juvenile detention center that is called Richard L.
Bean in Knoxville. Well and that Nancy is not a
happy place.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
To Phillip debate, high profile defense lawyer out of la As.
Many jurisdictions call it bindover process is when a juvenile
is quote bound over or transferred to adult superior court.
In most jurisdictions, there is a semblance of the seven Deadlys,
(31:28):
seven deadly sins that almost automatically ensure a teen will
be treated as an adult. I want to remind everyone
that a teen is never put in an adult jail.
If they are tried and sentenced as an adult, they
go to a juvenile facility until they become twenty one.
(31:51):
Then they go into an adult facility. Back to the
bindover process and the seven deadlies. I should have these memorized.
I don't the seven dead lists. It guarantee you a
bind over to adult court. Murder, rape, sodomy, childlesstation, armed robbery, arson,
(32:17):
an aggravated assault.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Those are the seven.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Aggravated assault with a weapon such as a knife or
a gun, we shoot somebody. Those almost guarantee you'll be
treated as an adult. What's your response to beate? Not?
Speaker 9 (32:32):
In Tennessee they do it a little bit differently. Their
removal process requires a probable cause finding that the crime
has been committed and that given the miners age reprior
rehabilitative efforts, the sophistication of the crime and a mental
health history, certainly whether or not the miner has a
(32:54):
criminal record, and that the interest of the community would
be served. The minor can be removed out of juvenile
to the adult court of jurisdiction. And the stakes, as
you know, Nancy, are quite high. This young man under
Tennessee law could do between fifteen and sixty years in
the state prison after the age of eighteen.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Also, you pointed out, as I expected, how long a
sentence could be if eighteen is treated as an adult.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
What you did not point out is how.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Light a sentence could be in juvenile GV court GIV jail.
He could walk free in as little as eighteen months
with time credit for dating back to the time he
was arrested eighteen months for multiple stab wounds on a
(33:47):
thirteen year old girl left to bleed out in the
woods at two thirty a m away from her mother,
away from.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Her father and her home. I want to talk.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
About premeditation because to you, Barry Hudgeson joining me former
law enforcement now chief investigator at Barry and Associates Investigations, Barry,
when you lure a little girl out of her home,
and as we said earlier, by somebody that's going to
be determined by looking at text messages, phone calls, snaps,
(34:23):
you name it, the intent will be there. I believe
that helped lure her out. But also the fact that
he goes to get her carrying a knife, So then
they don't just go walk around the block. They don't
sneak down to waffle house. He lures her to a
densely wooded area, a secret location. All of that shows intent.
Speaker 6 (34:48):
To me, I would agree with you one thousand percent, Nancy.
I mean he obviously had the fairyes ideas. I mean,
why would he be taking her to a remote area.
I mean to me, it all points to him wanting
to have some kind of a se escapade with the
young lady.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
May be heard.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Oh then I just write down the word sex. Question
mark Lauren Conlin. What is his motivation? Is it because
he tried to have sex with a little girl I
a raper and she refused? Or is it something akin
to Brian Coberger who wanted the thrill of a kill.
Do we know anything such as was she unclothed?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Nancy?
Speaker 7 (35:24):
I have been digging and trying to figure out what
his motive would be, and I come to the same
conclusion as you hear as it was possibly sexually motivated.
We don't know if she was found partially clothed or
fully clothed. But I did notice on this young man's
(35:45):
social media he follows the high school band, the Powell Band,
So he didn't seem like he was into gang activity
at all, because you know, that also crossed my mind.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Could this possibly be Did you say he was the band? Wait?
Did you say he was in the band?
Speaker 7 (36:02):
I do not know if he's in the band, but
on his Facebook he follows only three things and one
of them is the Powell High School Band.
Speaker 14 (36:11):
The teen accused of killing Savannah Copeland has been in
court for status hearings at least four times. The suspect
has sat quietly in the court even as he learned
that state prosecutors intend to try Harris as an adult.
Judge Tim Irwin has set a transfer hearing for January fourteenth,
and that is the discovery deadline as well. Harris's court
(36:32):
appointed attorney, Josh Hendrick, has filed a request for discovery.
Assistant District Attorney General Rachel Hill told the court that
genetic testing and other forensic testing results may not be
back until after the first.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Of the year. Very little has been released about Harris.
So far.
Speaker 14 (36:49):
We know that he was known to the Copeland family,
who has at times welcomed him into their home. Harris
was living with his grandfather and several siblings at the
time of the killing. Harris is being held in the
Richardale Bean Detention facility.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Not just a teen boy, but a family friend who
the Copelands had welcomed into their home on multiple occasions.
The degree of betrayal runs deep, and you hear the
father state he is angry at the Purpse family as well.
(37:25):
To Lauren Conlin, I've got so many questions, but explain
to me what this boy's demeanor was in court.
Speaker 7 (37:35):
He was described Nancy as emotionless, kind of looking down
at his hands. He didn't appear to have any type
of remorse.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
You know, I'm very curious about the defense Philip Dubay
because if he claims that it wasn't him, the fact
that they are waiting for genetic testing indicates to me
that they think they found DNA, likely his DNA at
the scene or her DNA possibly on his clothing. I
(38:04):
don't know, but there is DNA that's being tested right now,
And it reminds me of Coburger, who almost got away
with it if he had not left DNA on the
snap of a knife hilt. So if there is DNA,
he can't climb. It wasn't me. He's going to have
to go with mental defect. And that's why it's so
(38:27):
important that I'm able to match the knife up his
pocket knife to those wounds exactly.
Speaker 9 (38:34):
Otherwise there really is no defense for the young man
other than a menal defense. And obviously he gave a
statement to the police. Would be my guests. The science
evidence might not under these circumstances be enough, but it
sounds like he copped out. Frankly, we're going to find
out a lot about this young man. Given his age,
he could have been in the throes of early onset schizophrenia,
(38:56):
bipolar disorder, or who knows, maybe even a personality disorder.
And again, the goal, the endgame at the transfer hearing
is not innocence. It's to keep him retained in the
juvenile court jurisdiction.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Just stop right there, Number one, Do you have a shred,
a sentilla, a speck of evidence that he has schizophrenia
or did you.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Just make that up.
Speaker 9 (39:20):
No, I'm just telling you that's going to be explored
when you hear it. Like for example, Lauren talk you
have no no, but there was a flat affect in court,
you have no emotion. There's something obviously ailing the young man.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yes guilt to doctor Jory Crausen, could you explain why
a personality disorder that Philip Dubay just fabricated.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Is not a defense.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It does not rise to a mental defect, and it
is certainly not insanity. It could be for all I know,
histrionic or narcissistic. That's not a mental defense.
Speaker 10 (39:57):
Yeah, neither of those are mental def as far as
like a defense. You know, keep in mind, insanity is
a legal term. It's not a psychological diagnosis or anything.
What you're going to be looking at is his mental
state at the time of the commission of the crime
and what led up to that. That's why it's important
(40:17):
to know about that relationship and things that happened there,
because you're going to have behavioral traits. You're going to
have his personality displayed, and that's something that you can
document and when he does a court evaluation, the evaluator
would get into those dynamics to be able to come
up with a diagnosis to present to the court.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I'm just looking at these cheerleader photos and imagining my
little girl at age thirteen.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
If you know or think you know.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Anything about this case, anything at all, text KC SOO,
tip k C S tip two.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Eight four seven for one pin one.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
At this moment, the state is building its case and
the defense is building its own case.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
We wait for justice to unfold.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a beautiful young teen cheerleader
Frenzy stabbed by a teen boy dad having to use
a tracking app to try to find his girl's body.
(00:20):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Savannah Copeland is a thirteen year old middle schooler in Tennessee.
She has big dreams of becoming a forensic anthropologist and
is an all star athlete, excelling in gymnastics, karate, and cheerleading.
But things take a deadly turn when Savannah vanishes in
the middle of the night.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Can you imagine you wake up in the morning, you
get everything ready for your children, and then wake them
for breakfast, and your.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Child is not there.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
That is what this little thirteen year old cheerleader's parents experienced.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Listen, She's never.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Gone out as far as I know, you know. I
mean I could look at her life three sixty every
single day and I could see she didn't sneak out.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
She never went out.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
We never had to worry about that.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
From our friends.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Wat E six Michael Coplan, little thirteen year old Savannah's father,
trying to make sense of what happened that horrible night.
First of all Life three sixty. We've all heard of it.
Many people know about it, many people don't what it is.
To Barry Hutchinson, joining US, veteran law enforcement and detective
(01:38):
now owner and chief investigator at Barry and Associates Investigative Services. Barry,
it's quite an investigative tool. Life three sixty explain.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
It can be used to track the moonments of whoever
the phone belongs to. As you know, Nancy, the cell
towers phones can be pained on every location wherever the
phone sends signals and the triangulation pattern, and it's really
really helpful to track the movements of victims and where
they were particular times, to establish motives and everything else involved.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
In the case.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Straight out to Lauren Colin, joining US an investigative reporter
co host Primetime Crime on YouTube. You can find her
at Popcrime dot Tv. Lauren, thank you for being with us.
Explain to me what happened that night, because I find
it very unusual. This little thirteen year old girl was
always where she said she would be be it at school,
(02:34):
at church, at cheerleading practice on the way between those
three locations. Never once had she not been home when
she was supposed to be home. What happened that night?
What do we know at the beginning? What did the
parents find that morning?
Speaker 7 (02:51):
What we do know is that, as you mentioned, her
parents woke up and she wasn't there.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
They panicked.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
I used air tags for my kids, but I have
her Life three sixty is also amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So her dad pulled the app.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
Open and he realized that, oh my gosh, she's nearby.
She was sort of at this trail by this community pool.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Lauren, When you say the trail led along side of pool,
is that the community pool?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
We're talking about the neighborhood pool, so to speak.
Speaker 7 (03:24):
Yes, it's the broad Acre's neighborhood Nancy, And if you
look online, this neighborhood is described as warm and charming.
It's actually a very popular pool and a popular trail.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay, I want to talk to Barry Hutchinson again, law
enforcement and owner of Barry and Associate's Investigative Services. Barry,
when you look at Life three sixty, okay, be kiss.
I've got two teams. I don't know how this happened,
but they just turned seventeen and they're always going in
different directions. Now I know where they're supposed to be.
(03:57):
But this Life three sixty is amazing. It can tell
you if they're on foot because it shows little sneakers walking.
It can tell if they're sitting in a car, even
if the car is not moving. It can tell if
they're in a moving car and how fast the car
is going. And it shows you a map where they're headed,
(04:17):
what street they're on. And my children have it on
me as well. So another feature of Life three sixty,
Barry Hutchinson, is that if you know the right button
to push, it can show you their trail that day.
And that's what Lauren Colin was talking about, the trail,
So explain the trail. It almost looks like a digitized
(04:42):
footprint line little dots showing you where they've been.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
How does it do that, Barry.
Speaker 6 (04:48):
It's all done by satellite and geo fencing. It's a
very very great tool. This shows everything. But one thing
I want you to keep in mind also doesn't necessarily
one hundred percent that's where the person was. It means
that's where the phone was.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Okay, Barry Hutchinson.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I don't know how old your children are, but if
you have a child that seteen I guarantee you their
phone is with them, unless you're actually you're right, Barry,
unless it's been physically taken away from them. So Lauren
Colin joining me, investigative reporter, Lauren, you're telling.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Me that the dad opens up the Life thy sixty
app trying to find out where is she.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Savannah's not in her bed, and he looks at where
she's been because apparently her.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Phone by that time was dead.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
What happened exactly the night before she disappears?
Speaker 8 (05:44):
Listen getting a call that his daughter is missing. Michael
Copeland heads back home to search for Savannah using the
Life three sixty app that shows where the phone goes.
They could see the path that Savannah took, and at
one time the app shows the family that Savannah when
missing between midnight and two thirty eight, but does not
show her exact location. Starting in the general location, the
(06:05):
family goes door to door asking if someone has a
doorbelled camera that might have seen what direction Savannah was
going in to no avail.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Lauren Colin, that is heartbreaking. So the parents see this trail,
the dad does, and they start walking the trail door
to door asking people, have you seen Savannah? And in
my book don't be a victim. I ask parents, guardians,
caretakers to keep photos of their children, current photos on
(06:36):
their phone and any other identifying features that they can
show people immediately, and to always know what their children
are wearing, what their backpack looks like, anything about them. Now,
tell me about this so here it is first thing
in the morning. Dad goes to work, He gets to
call Savannah, it's not here. He races home and they
(06:58):
start going door to door along this life three sixty trail.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Tell me about that.
Speaker 7 (07:04):
Yes, they were frantically looking for their child, and they
followed the path that they saw on the app, which
was so helpful until they were able to connect with
law enforcement and finally go to the trail behind the
community pool.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
What is hard to believe is that many people have
actually found fault with a little thirteen year old cheerleader
for leaving her home in the middle of the night
based on her history. As I always say, when you
don't know a horse, look at his track record. I
(07:45):
have never once seen my daughter or son or know
of them crawling out the window or leaving the house
in the middle of the night.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Does that mean it will never happen? No, I'm just
saying it never happen.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
When you don't know what's going to happen, you look
back at what has already happened. In this case, this
little girl had never left home before. Savannah Coplan, just
thirteen years old, all caught up in middle school and cheerleading,
had never snuck out before.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So why that.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Night of all nights in thirteen years, it had never happened.
And I submit she was lured out, lured out, bringing
to mind the case of another thirteen year old little girl,
Nicole Lovell. Nicole Lovell, we believe was lured out by
(08:44):
a phone app or an online dating apps such as
kit Kik, Lured out of her home. Her mother discovers
the next morning she's gone. Nicole also lured out by
an older teen boy. She also is stabbed dead and
(09:08):
her body found beside the road. It's a phenomena straight
out to Philip Dubey, joining US high profile lawyer out
of LA with the Public Defender's Office.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
A Philip teen crime.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I always have considered teen killers as more dangerous than
adults because they.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Don't have a conscience.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yet they don't understand the gravity of what they're doing.
So they are acting without any moral compass at all,
as in the case I just told you about Nicole Lovell,
just thirteen years old, who was lured out of her
home with her mom by an older teen David Eisenhower,
(09:57):
who I believe had been a valedictorian small private school
before he went on to be an.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Athlete scholar at college.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
He had just gotten there seventeen ish years old, luring
this little girl out because he did not want anyone
to find out about their sex relationship. That's what happened
right there. So, the luring out of a little girl
thirteen years old, like Savannah Copeland, I find it very
(10:27):
difficult to understand how people believe that.
Speaker 9 (10:30):
How people blame the child, Well, first of all, it
depends on what you mean by luring out. If the
child was being lured out to be killed, and yes,
that's a different analysis, But if the child was being
lured out just to hook up, get to know one another,
and it's sort of like that Romeo and Judy.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Game thirty in the morning, Dubey, I've told many a joury,
nothing good happens after midnight.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
If you're getting.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Lured out your bedroom with your parents at midnight.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
It is not for anything good. I mean, do you
have children for Pete's sake?
Speaker 9 (11:04):
No, I understand know, and this is exactly why.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Well there you got. Why did I even ask you
a question? You know, when you do have children, you're
gonna understand.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
There's no good reason for them to be leaving the
home at midnight.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
They were lured, and it's not for a good reason.
What to go have milk and cookies.
Speaker 9 (11:23):
The luring takes two. The child could have said, no,
I'm not turning out in each other.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I've got a teen year old girl need to get
to know somebody at two thirty am.
Speaker 9 (11:33):
Welcome to the twenty first century. Where do you think
we are? Nowadays? Kids communicate online, they communicate through their phones.
They want to hook up, they want to get to
know one another, and mom and dad's certainly not going
to allow it at that hour. So what do they do?
They sneak out? You know, the real question is.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Maybe in your world, maybe you snuck out at two am,
But that's not what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yes, I know about cell phones.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I bought my children, so I pay the monthly bill
for their cell phones. Yes, I know about cell phones.
But that's a whole another thing. Having a cell phone
and getting lured out of your home where your everybody's
asleep and you have to sneak out at twelve midnight.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
That is luring. You know what. I can't talk to you.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Doctor Jory Crawsen joining us a psychologist faculty at Saint
Leo University and consulted with the Blue Wall Institute, author
of Operation SOS. Doctor Jory, can you talk some sense
into Dubay. There's no good reason, no innocent reason for
a child just thirteen, she'd just turned thirteen, for Pete's sake,
(12:54):
to get lured out of her home with her parents
at midnight.
Speaker 10 (13:00):
There's no good reason. But there is a reason, some motivation,
some enhancement, something to get her out of that home.
The big key will be, you know, you get more
information off of that phone. If there were text messages,
or if he got close to the home, the home
Wi Fi would register on his phone. There's got to
(13:22):
be some motivation and that's got to be documented, and
it can be documented through that phone.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Tennessee teens Savannah Copeland has vanished suddenly during the night,
and her father has not heard from her for hours.
Where is thirteen year old Tennessee cheerleader Savannah?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And then mom and Dad's worst nightmare, worst nightmare comes true.
Speaker 11 (13:48):
At around four forty five this afternoon, through dispatch, we
received the call on a possible deceased body on a
trail over a Broad Acre subdivision. Our authors responded to
that did find a body.
Speaker 12 (14:07):
Reaching out to the Knox County Sheriff's Office, deputies begin
searching for Savannah Copeland. Nearly twelve hours after deputies are
called in to help search, Michael Copeland here sirens and
says he knew they had to be for Savannah. A
teen walking along a popular trail that runs behind a
public swimming pool in the Broad Acres neighborhood in Powell,
finds the lifeless body of Savannah Copeland. Savannah Copeland has
(14:29):
been stabbed multiple times by what appears to be a
small knife and left to bleed to death alone on
the dirt trail.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You're hearing our friend Shareff Tom Spangler with Knox County
Tennessee Sheriff's Office along with our friends at WAT E
six to doctor Kendall Crown's joining US renowned chief medical
examiner at Terrant County that's Fort Worth and a steam
lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns,
(14:56):
thank you for being with us. How can you look
at Malta stabbings and determine a when there's overlapping stabs,
how many times the victim has been stabbed and two
that the knife use the cutting instrument was, as it
(15:17):
has said been said shallow.
Speaker 13 (15:20):
So you can look at the stab wounds and get
an actual count. Sometimes when they crisscross an overlap, you
can still get an idea based on how the other
stab wounds, what the stab wounds would look like, and
kind of separate out the ones that have crisscross or
overlapped and get an.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Approximate account account.
Speaker 13 (15:39):
Now, determining whether the knife is a short blade or
a long blade can be difficult because the body has
what is called elasticity, or when you push in it
can deform a little bit, and so you can shove
a short bladed knife in deeper than the actual length
of the blades. So determining the overall blade length sometimes
can be difficult, but you can get a rough approximation
(16:03):
depending on the depth of the stab wound.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Back to the overlapping stab wounds. And I encounter this
in the investigation in the stabbing death of Travis Alexander
by Jody Arius May she Rot in Hell. He was stabbed,
and it was argued over and over and over how
(16:25):
many times Travis had been stabbed before he was shot
in the head. Some authority said twenty seven, twenty eight,
twenty nine, and thirty times due to overlapping stab wounds
where you are in a frenzy stab mode and you
stab repeatedly, and some of the stab wounds are actually
(16:49):
exactly where other stab wounds are. Now, the playability of
human flesh also lends to confusion in determining how many
stab wounds explain.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
So those are what is called mees lines.
Speaker 13 (17:06):
It's what when your surgeon is doing an operation, they
try to cut along those lines to make it so
the skin doesn't pull apart and creates less of a scar.
So when you're being stabbed, they're not concerned about you're cosmetics,
so they'll go against these knees lines, and the skin
itself will pull apart and make the wounds look gaping
(17:27):
or enlarged. Based on that pulling a part of the skin.
And again also with stab wounds, you have to consider
that they don't necessarily just stick the knife in, but
they will also stick it in and then pull it down,
making large gaping holes as well. So they can be
very confusing when you get multiple stab wounds of this nature,
which we generally call overkilled because you don't need to
(17:50):
stab someone that many times to kill them.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
In this case, it was determined very quickly that a
small knife was used to murder the thirteen old cheerleader,
Savannah Copeland. And let me add she has a twin brother.
She has two brothers.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Let me think their names.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Twin brother Casey and other brother Britain. As I recall
that said, a special bond between twins is like no
other boy girl twins and another brother. That said, back
(18:31):
to the number of stabbings and the assumption that a
small knife was used, A small knife, and this is
probative as well, and I'll explain later. A small knife
is deemed to be two to six inches long. Okay,
(18:53):
could that be a pocket knife? Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Yes, that could definitely be a pocket knife.
Speaker 13 (19:00):
Usually they're small blades that are opened and fixed.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Another issue doctor kill the Crown's and believe me, all
of this is critical as it comes to proving this case.
We know all about Brian Coburger, right. We wish we didn't,
but we did. In that case, the killer, who the
state says is Brian Coburger, murdered four people and what
appeared to be a frenzy stabbing because they were slashed
(19:27):
and stabbed multiple times. It was anything but a frenzy stabbing.
In that case, a fixed blade knife was used. How
is that different from a pocket knife? And how can
you tell from the stab wounds that a fixed blade
or a shallow knife such as a pocket knife was used.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
How can you differentiate that? This is important?
Speaker 13 (19:49):
So pocket knives when you open them up, will become
fixed at the end when you lock it into place,
so it will be a fixed blade at that point.
One thing you can look for with a pocket knife,
if it's driven all the way into the hilt, it
will leave a basically an abrasion, kind of a semicircular
abrasion around the stab wound itself. If you're using a
(20:11):
larger fixed blade knife, you can get similar similar injuries
when the knife is shoved in all the way again
to the hilt or the cross guard, whatever you want
to say, and it will leave a pattern abrasion marks
on there. So what you're looking for with the pocket
knife as you look for those characteristics kind of abrasions
(20:31):
around the side of the stab wound, whereas if you
have a large fixed knife you look for this the
abrasions from the cross guard itself.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
A gruesome discovery along a popular trail path. Thirteen year
old Savannah Copeland's body has been found brutally stabbed, just
hours after she's gone missing. Who killed the thirteen year
old athlete?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Who lord a thirteen year old little girl out of
her home while her parents were sleeping after midnight. Now,
to listen to defense attorney Philip Dubay, who does not
have children, I might add.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
That's just normal. It's not normal.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
It is normal for teens, even children to communicate on
their phones and their tablets, but getting lured out of
your home after midnight or at any time is not normal.
And why would you do that after midnight so the
parents can't know unless it was for a nefarious reason.
(21:33):
We're talking about a thirteen year old little girl just
turned one of a set of twins, her brother and
other siblings left behind to add to the tragedy, if
that can even be imagined.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
The purp is identified.
Speaker 11 (21:54):
Tonight just around nine pm, detectives identified a person of
interest and arrested a fifteen year old male and is
being charged with second degree murder in the death of
a thirteen year old young lady.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
A fifteen year old boy just turned By the way,
you were just hearing share of Tom Spangler of Knox County,
Tennessee Sheriff's Office from WAT six.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
But the dad, Savannah's father, weighs in it was a
betrayal of trust.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
I'm angry at this kid's family that I have opinions about.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Now, not only a fifteen year old boy just turned fifteen,
but also known to the.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Family a family friend.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
You heard of Michael Copeland, Savannah's dad, speaking to our
friends at WAT E six. He calls it a betrayal
of trust. He said he's angry at the boy's family
that he now has opinions about. I'd like to hear
what those opinions are. Why was the boy out at
that time of night?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Why was he luring a.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Little girl who wo just turned thirteen out of her home?
So many questions swirling right now, but I want to
circle back to doctor Kendall Crowns joining US Medical Examiner
at Arrant County Chief Medical Examiner at Arrant County, Savannah.
A thirteen year old little girl bled out. She didn't
(23:31):
get apparently stabbed in the heart, so she died instantly.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
She laid there in the middle of the night, all
alone in the.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Woods, as her life's blood slipped out of her. How
long would it have taken her to die, doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 13 (23:51):
If she's not stabbed in the heart, It depends on
what vessel has hit, how many times she's stabbed. It
can be minutes to anywhere from a few minutes to
ten to fifteen minutes, depending on what gets stepped.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Veterman's trying lawyer, Philip Dubay, defense attorney out of LA
So this may have been a frenzy attack with so
many stab wounds. But given the probative evidence, the evidence
we're going to find out at autopsy, he would have
left her there on the ground in the woods at
(24:25):
two thirty am, all alone and walked away as she died.
Speaker 9 (24:33):
Thoughts, Well, first of all, you're asking a fifteen year
old to think like an adult and to render aid
and to try to get help.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I'm asking you your opinion on that. Is it anything
but cold blood? Because he could have called for help
to save her, but he didn't.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
No.
Speaker 9 (24:49):
One of the clues is that the prosecutions filed this
as a second degree. A first degree in Tennessee would
be a premeditated killing. This was clearly unpremeditated, which is
probably why they filed it as a second If it
were truly alluring that showed he had murder on his
mind by keeping an unshallow folding knife on his person,
(25:12):
then that clearly shows an intent to kill. It sounds
like something erupted. There was some type of paroxism, if
you will, of fury out on that dirt trail where
he suddenly erupted in blind rage and stabbed her up.
But I don't think it was planned. I think it
was spur of the moment, which is why they're going
to do a transfer hearing, at which time the judge
(25:32):
will decide if this kid stands trial as an adult.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I would like to correct you. In Tennessee, the law
defines second degree murder as one of two types and
one of those types. Is a knowing killing of another,
repeat a knowing killing of another. It is not a
(25:56):
voluntary manslain such as you are describing.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Under the law. When we hear the words knowing, that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Means that you have a mensreea, that you have an intent,
a knowledge of what you're doing, A knowing killing.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
This is not a voluntary manslaughter.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Is not a dui where you get drunk but you
did not intend on actually killing somebody.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
This is a knowing killing.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
As you just try to pull the wool over my
eyes in Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
It's a knowing killing. That's murder.
Speaker 9 (26:34):
Tee, No, I understand, but remember there's two ways you
can do it, explicitly or implicitly. If you stabbed her
four or five times and kept doing it. Yes, it
is so reckless that anybody could infer subjectively and objectively
an intent to kill without actually uttering the words I
am going to take you out. Your life is over.
(26:54):
The conduct of engaging in repeated stabbing suggests it implies
that intent to who do you.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Think you're talking to? Do you think I just fell
off the turnip truck. I have tried many many homicides.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Don't try to muddy the water by spouting out the
definitions under the law of implicit and express intent. Because
the law says murder can be proved by implicit evidence,
implicit intents or express Now implicit, let me.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Start with express.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's when I say, dobet, I'm killing you now, and
then I shoot you. My words have expressly shown I
intend to kill you. Implicit means the jury can judge
by the actions or other extrinsic evidence, such as repeat stabbing.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
If he did not mean to.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Kill her, then why stab her over and over and
over and leave.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Her to bleed out dead? You know, so all of.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Your legal mumbo jumbo, don't even try that with me
debate because the law says intent can be proven implicitly
or expressly. And I would argue to a jury that
when this many stabs, he had to intend to kill her,
which supports a knowing killing, which is murdered too under
(28:17):
Tennessee law.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Are you saying that's wrong?
Speaker 5 (28:19):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:20):
But the endgame here is to spare this kid is
transferred to the adult court.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Just waste my time.
Speaker 9 (28:27):
No, the victory would be to keep the kid in
juvenile court because he would max out. I think at
age twenty one, whereas if he's found unsuitable for juvenile court,
he'll go upstairs to adult court, where he could in
theory do up to sixty years. And by the way,
it was brilliant for the prosecution not to file this
as the first degree because the jury could come back
(28:49):
or the court could come back with a life without
parole type sentence, So at some point this young man
will get out.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
A fifteen year old boy is taken into custody after
the brutal stabbing death of thirteen year old Tennessee cheerleader
Savannah Copeland.
Speaker 12 (29:03):
Investigators are not saying what led them to arrest fifteen
year old Malachiah Harris for the murder of Savannah Copeland.
Harris is someone the Copeland family knows, someone they have befriended.
Investigators haven't said what the motive for the murder is yet,
but Malachia Harris's charge was second degree murder in the
death of the teen.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
To Lauren Colin, investigative reporter, Lauren explain to me how
she was found. How was thirteen year old Savannah Copland found?
Speaker 7 (29:29):
While her parents were searching for her nancy, they heard
sirens in the distance and they thought to themselves, oh
my gosh, this can't be good. And unfortunately, while a
teen was walking the trail, she came across Savannah's body
and called the authorities.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I'm wondering how long this little girl suffered. A petition
released by the court accuses fifteen year old Malachi Harris
of stabbing Savannah multiple times with a pocket knife he
took with him that night when he lured her out
of her home after midnight, leaving her alone on the trail,
(30:08):
telling no one. Her body laid there undiscovered until late
the next day, when eighteen walking the trail finds her.
Lifeless crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
To Lauren Cohen again, I understand.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Prosecutors announced they will try Malachi Harris as an adult
they want to.
Speaker 7 (30:44):
And on January fourteenth, there is going to be a
hearing that will determine if he will be tried as
an adult. But in the meantime, he is being held
at the juvenile detention center that is called Richard L.
Bean in Knoxville. Well and that Nancy is not a
happy place.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
To Phillip debate, high profile defense lawyer out of la As.
Many jurisdictions call it bindover process is when a juvenile
is quote bound over or transferred to adult superior court.
In most jurisdictions, there is a semblance of the seven Deadlys,
(31:28):
seven deadly sins that almost automatically ensure a teen will
be treated as an adult. I want to remind everyone
that a teen is never put in an adult jail.
If they are tried and sentenced as an adult, they
go to a juvenile facility until they become twenty one.
(31:51):
Then they go into an adult facility. Back to the
bindover process and the seven deadlies. I should have these memorized.
I don't the seven dead lists. It guarantee you a
bind over to adult court. Murder, rape, sodomy, childlesstation, armed robbery, arson,
(32:17):
an aggravated assault.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Those are the seven.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Aggravated assault with a weapon such as a knife or
a gun, we shoot somebody. Those almost guarantee you'll be
treated as an adult. What's your response to beate? Not?
Speaker 9 (32:32):
In Tennessee they do it a little bit differently. Their
removal process requires a probable cause finding that the crime
has been committed and that given the miners age reprior
rehabilitative efforts, the sophistication of the crime and a mental
health history, certainly whether or not the miner has a
(32:54):
criminal record, and that the interest of the community would
be served. The minor can be removed out of juvenile
to the adult court of jurisdiction. And the stakes, as
you know, Nancy, are quite high. This young man under
Tennessee law could do between fifteen and sixty years in
the state prison after the age of eighteen.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Also, you pointed out, as I expected, how long a
sentence could be if eighteen is treated as an adult.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
What you did not point out is how.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Light a sentence could be in juvenile GV court GIV jail.
He could walk free in as little as eighteen months
with time credit for dating back to the time he
was arrested eighteen months for multiple stab wounds on a
(33:47):
thirteen year old girl left to bleed out in the
woods at two thirty a m away from her mother,
away from.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Her father and her home. I want to talk.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
About premeditation because to you, Barry Hudgeson joining me former
law enforcement now chief investigator at Barry and Associates Investigations, Barry,
when you lure a little girl out of her home,
and as we said earlier, by somebody that's going to
be determined by looking at text messages, phone calls, snaps,
(34:23):
you name it, the intent will be there. I believe
that helped lure her out. But also the fact that
he goes to get her carrying a knife, So then
they don't just go walk around the block. They don't
sneak down to waffle house. He lures her to a
densely wooded area, a secret location. All of that shows intent.
Speaker 6 (34:48):
To me, I would agree with you one thousand percent, Nancy.
I mean he obviously had the fairyes ideas. I mean,
why would he be taking her to a remote area.
I mean to me, it all points to him wanting
to have some kind of a se escapade with the
young lady.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
May be heard.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Oh then I just write down the word sex. Question
mark Lauren Conlin. What is his motivation? Is it because
he tried to have sex with a little girl I
a raper and she refused? Or is it something akin
to Brian Coberger who wanted the thrill of a kill.
Do we know anything such as was she unclothed?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Nancy?
Speaker 7 (35:24):
I have been digging and trying to figure out what
his motive would be, and I come to the same
conclusion as you hear as it was possibly sexually motivated.
We don't know if she was found partially clothed or
fully clothed. But I did notice on this young man's
(35:45):
social media he follows the high school band, the Powell Band,
So he didn't seem like he was into gang activity
at all, because you know, that also crossed my mind.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Could this possibly be Did you say he was the band? Wait?
Did you say he was in the band?
Speaker 7 (36:02):
I do not know if he's in the band, but
on his Facebook he follows only three things and one
of them is the Powell High School Band.
Speaker 14 (36:11):
The teen accused of killing Savannah Copeland has been in
court for status hearings at least four times. The suspect
has sat quietly in the court even as he learned
that state prosecutors intend to try Harris as an adult.
Judge Tim Irwin has set a transfer hearing for January fourteenth,
and that is the discovery deadline as well. Harris's court
(36:32):
appointed attorney, Josh Hendrick, has filed a request for discovery.
Assistant District Attorney General Rachel Hill told the court that
genetic testing and other forensic testing results may not be
back until after the first.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Of the year. Very little has been released about Harris.
So far.
Speaker 14 (36:49):
We know that he was known to the Copeland family,
who has at times welcomed him into their home. Harris
was living with his grandfather and several siblings at the
time of the killing. Harris is being held in the
Richardale Bean Detention facility.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Not just a teen boy, but a family friend who
the Copelands had welcomed into their home on multiple occasions.
The degree of betrayal runs deep, and you hear the
father state he is angry at the Purpse family as well.
(37:25):
To Lauren Conlin, I've got so many questions, but explain
to me what this boy's demeanor was in court.
Speaker 7 (37:35):
He was described Nancy as emotionless, kind of looking down
at his hands. He didn't appear to have any type
of remorse.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
You know, I'm very curious about the defense Philip Dubay
because if he claims that it wasn't him, the fact
that they are waiting for genetic testing indicates to me
that they think they found DNA, likely his DNA at
the scene or her DNA possibly on his clothing. I
(38:04):
don't know, but there is DNA that's being tested right now,
And it reminds me of Coburger, who almost got away
with it if he had not left DNA on the
snap of a knife hilt. So if there is DNA,
he can't climb. It wasn't me. He's going to have
to go with mental defect. And that's why it's so
(38:27):
important that I'm able to match the knife up his
pocket knife to those wounds exactly.
Speaker 9 (38:34):
Otherwise there really is no defense for the young man
other than a menal defense. And obviously he gave a
statement to the police. Would be my guests. The science
evidence might not under these circumstances be enough, but it
sounds like he copped out. Frankly, we're going to find
out a lot about this young man. Given his age,
he could have been in the throes of early onset schizophrenia,
(38:56):
bipolar disorder, or who knows, maybe even a personality disorder.
And again, the goal, the endgame at the transfer hearing
is not innocence. It's to keep him retained in the
juvenile court jurisdiction.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Just stop right there, Number one, Do you have a shred,
a sentilla, a speck of evidence that he has schizophrenia
or did you.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Just make that up.
Speaker 9 (39:20):
No, I'm just telling you that's going to be explored
when you hear it. Like for example, Lauren talk you
have no no, but there was a flat affect in court,
you have no emotion. There's something obviously ailing the young man.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yes guilt to doctor Jory Crausen, could you explain why
a personality disorder that Philip Dubay just fabricated.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Is not a defense.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It does not rise to a mental defect, and it
is certainly not insanity. It could be for all I know,
histrionic or narcissistic. That's not a mental defense.
Speaker 10 (39:57):
Yeah, neither of those are mental def as far as
like a defense. You know, keep in mind, insanity is
a legal term. It's not a psychological diagnosis or anything.
What you're going to be looking at is his mental
state at the time of the commission of the crime
and what led up to that. That's why it's important
(40:17):
to know about that relationship and things that happened there,
because you're going to have behavioral traits. You're going to
have his personality displayed, and that's something that you can
document and when he does a court evaluation, the evaluator
would get into those dynamics to be able to come
up with a diagnosis to present to the court.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I'm just looking at these cheerleader photos and imagining my
little girl at age thirteen.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
If you know or think you know.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Anything about this case, anything at all, text KC SOO,
tip k C S tip two.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Eight four seven for one pin one.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
At this moment, the state is building its case and
the defense is building its own case.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
We wait for justice to unfold.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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