September 25, 2024 • 40 mins
Polk County Sheriff's deputies respond to a 911 call from a home in Auburndale, Florida. Inside, they find 39-year-old Catherine Griffith lying face down with a kitchen knife in her neck. She is pronounced dead at the scene. Investigators begin canvassing the neighborhood to determine what led to Catherine's death.
The case background begins when, after 20 years of marriage, Catherine Griffith leaves her husband, Charles Griffith. She alleges that Charles abused her and their two sons, Christopher and Collin, for years. Christopher, 20, no longer lives at home, but custody disputes arise over 13-year-old Collin, who goes to live with his father in Oklahoma.
Catherine claims Charles cut off her contact with Collin after he begged her to rescue him, accusing her ex-husband of "holding Collin hostage" since he came out as gay.
Charles, however, contends that Collin no longer wants contact with Catherine because she is "unstable" and that he restricted communication after Catherine sent Collin a photo of a handwritten suicide note. A judge rules that Collin will remain in Oklahoma with his father.
Tensions escalate on Valentine’s Day when Collin calls 911 to report he shot and killed his father. He tells the operator his father attacked him and chased him with a knife through their home. When cornered in a bedroom, Collin says he grabbed a shotgun and shot Charles in self-defense. Investigators, unable to rule out self-defense based on the 911 call and home evidence, send Collin to live with his mother in Florida.
Catherine's social media posts suggest she and Collin are happy together, as they travel to Washington D.C., take a Disney cruise, and celebrate Collin’s early graduation and his first car purchase. However, friends and family describe a more troubled relationship. Collin frequently argues with his mother and struggles with his mental health.
On September 6, Collin leaves after a disagreement over household chores and goes to his grandmother's house.
Despite several attempts to bring Collin home, Catherine confides in a neighbor about her exhaustion in dealing with her son. She texts that she has cleared out Collin’s room and will not allow him back without her permission.
The neighbor also tries to convince Collin to return, but he ignores her. Catherine says she plans to meet Collin at his grandmother’s home the following day as a last-ditch effort to bring him back before he misses a probation meeting, warning that if he doesn't comply, law enforcement will intervene.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Peter Odom - Partner at Price Benowitz LLP Washington DC; Former Homicide Prosecutor
- Dr. Jorey Krawczyn – Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. – Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide”
- Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” X: @rdreekeke
- Dr. Priya Banerjee – Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting; X: @Autopsy_MD
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’;" IG: @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A teen's son says, Mommy fell on a knife. This
one year after he shoots dad dead tonight. Mommy's last
texts revealed good evening at Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us. I don't even know
what to say. Really, in my left speechless a kitchen
(00:29):
knife plunged in her neck and when police arrived, it's
still protruding from Mommy's neck, not one, but two stabs.
I gotta think about that, the two stabs. Many people
will argue a fight broke out.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
It was a heated argument. I was out of my
mind with anger.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
But the law says premeditation can be formed in an instant,
the twinkling of an eye, a moment, as long as
it takes to raise the gun and pull the trigger.
For instance, the fact that there were two stabs means
there's time to form intent. Who stabbed mom? Joining me
(01:11):
an all star panel? But first, before I get into
the facts.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm going to go out to a renowned.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Veteran trial lawyer, a partner at Price Benewitz's leading criminal
defense attorney with the law firm in DC, and former
homicide prosecutor joining me, Peter, odum, Peter, don't even you
have to agree that intent can be formed as the
(01:38):
law said. I'm sure he recalled Joseh Luther Alverson as
he would tell juries in the twinkling of an eye,
his words, not mine, and it upheld scrutiny all the way.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Up to the appellate courts. Wouldn't you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I agree with that, but I don't think that's where
this case is headed. This is not going to be
a case about intent, Nancy. This is going to be
a case about metal illness. And of course, I mean,
this is a terrible tragedy many times over. And what's
terribly tragic about is that two parents are dead at
the hands of their own child. What really compounds this tragedy, though,
(02:13):
is that this was entirely preventable, particularly the second murder.
Colin Griffiths suffered from a severe hold on.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Hold on, Peter, I respect your prowess in the courtroom,
but can you hear yourself? This was entirely preventable, especially
that second murder. Yeah, okay, let that ring in your
ears for just a few moments, because when police got there,
the son, the teen's son, who had just been given
(02:41):
a new car by mommy.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
As a matter of fact, right.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Before she was stabbed, she okay, she even went the
extra mile and got the big red boat to put
on it.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I know all about that.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh, look there they are. She's taking him everywhere. Just
before she was murdered, she shared a photo of herself
and her son.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Then bam, she's dead. You know, Peter, you know my children?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
How many hundreds thousands have photos?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Have I forced you and others to look?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
At me with John Davy, meet with Lucy, meet with
the twins. Here, we're at six Flags. Here, we're at Grandma's.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Blah blah.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
She just posted one of those and then bam, she's dead.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Oh it's it's horrible, Nancy. It's it's terrible. It's a
it's a terribly violent death. And what compounds it is
if he killed his own father under what have to
be described as suspicious circumstances just a year and a
half ago.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But I don't see this case.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
You can't claim he was mentally ill then too well?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Absolutely, you know, Nancy, this this teen has been twice
involuntarily hospitalized under the under Florida's Baker Act.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
You know, you don't.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You don't get involuntarily if you're not let out twice.
And that's what I mean when I say the tragedy
is compounded by negligence by the state. This teen should
have been hospitalized, he should have been segregated from society,
and yet this killer fish was put back into the
tank twice.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
They knew he had violent tendencies.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Okay, So Peter odom So when he comes out, when
he walks out and he sees police, he says, oh,
And this is after making a completely coherent nine to
one one call, going my mom is bleeding from the neck.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
You need to come take care of her.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And when he came out, he not only came out
completely calm, cool and collected, he had the wherewithal to lie. Now,
I'm going to go to our shrink, doctor Joy Crawlson
in just a moment. But if you're crazy, why would
you have the wherewithal, the knowledge, the coming to lie immediately?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
But wait, let's get the facts. First of all, listen
to this.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Catherine Valantez is just fifteen when she welcomes a baby
with high school sweetheart Charles Griffith. A couple times that night,
but stay close to home in Shawnee, Oklahoma, while Catherine
earns a degree. Both parents worked to support the young family.
Catherine as an online teacher for extra time with son Christopher.
Seven years later, the couple welcome as a second child,
and to keep the tradition of CG initials, they named
(05:15):
the little boy Colin.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
She gives up everything in order to raise her children,
even working online. This is the mom that was stabbed
in the neck. This is the mom who covered for
her son when he killed his father, telling authorities, oh,
it was self defense, let him out because society couldn't
(05:37):
believe a son would kill his dad, so they thought, hey,
he must be mentally ill. But the way he came
out of that house, Susan Hendrix tells me an altogether
different story, joining me, journalist, investigative reporter, author of Down
the Hill, My Descent into the double Murder in Delphi.
(05:58):
Susan Hendricks joining us, Susan, tell me what happened when
this young man comes out of the house and says,
my mom's in there. She's bleeding from the neck, just
as calm and.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Cool, chilling.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Not only what he said, what he didn't say. It's
my mom come help immediately. No, I know my rights.
I want an attorney. He knew exactly what he was doing.
I feel like he's manipulated the system four years.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And wait a minute, I knew he came out cool
as a cucumber.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I did not know.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You just told me something new. He came out and said,
I know my rights. I want a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Did you just say that? Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (06:39):
That's exactly what he said?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Covered him wood.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Okay, hold on, hold on, Peter Odom, the guy that
you say is crazy comes out and looks the cops
right in the face and goes, I know my rights.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I want a long Nancy.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Really crazy as your word, the law really doesn't use
that word. He is mentally ill and there's really no
question about that. He has been twice hospitalized. That means
that he had to be proven by a preponderance of
the evidence to be mentally ill enough that he was
a danger to himself or others. So there's really no
question that this team.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
When was he bakered, Let's find out when was he
Baker act to Susan?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
When did he get bakerd.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
There are two dates that stand out to me. One
was in September twenty twenty three. I know that he
was held for seventy two hours. He made threats inside
of that hole. During that hold. They kept him for
an additional five days, eight days total. He said exactly
what he was going to do. The prosecutor in Oklahoma
was asked, you regret not charging him for the murder
(07:43):
of his father. He said, no, it's impossible to predict
someone's future behaviors. No, it's not not when they tell
you and everyone around them what they're going to do.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Didn't his Baker Act coincide with him stabbing his father?
Speaker 6 (07:59):
It did, but it seemed like he slipped through the cracks.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, and then the second Baker Act, wasn't it when
he attacked his mother in November?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
He killed his father Feb.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Fourteen, Valentine's Day, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
He's bakered.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
In other words, you're putting a put in a mental
facility and you're analyzed. They decide, hey, he's fine, we
can let him go. He was put there because the
system didn't know what else to.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Do with him.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Why else would he shoot his dad if he wasn't
mentally ill? So they go test him. He's released then
November twenty twenty three, he assaults his mother.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
He attacks her.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Then he's bakered again because people think, well, why would
you attack your mom? You must be mentally ill. Does
that coincide with his baker acts?
Speaker 6 (08:50):
Susan, well, I think there's a lot of facets here.
So he was held an additional time at the seventy
two hour hold, but it's not a long term facility,
so they were only able to keep him for a
certain amount of times. He made threats there as well.
He said, I did it before, I'll do it again.
I'll throw her out of a car, I'll shoot her,
I'll stab her. He said exactly what he was going
(09:12):
to do. Sheriff Judd of Florida seems to be the
only one that said, look, I held up a picture
of him and say, you see a kid, I see
a psychopath, as could have been prevented because of how
many threats were made.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Susan Hendrix of the teen boy that has killed not
only his father but his mother too. This after she
defends him and the death of the father gets him
out of jail, he hates her. He goes back to
live with her and she ends up deck can you
tell me about the new car.
Speaker 6 (09:44):
Susan his twenty six thousand dollars he graduated from high
school to me, never ever, ever do I blame the mother.
It was her unconditional love though, and the forgiveness, and
I think coddling. Maybe she felt guilt about the divorce.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Six thousand dollars card. They also went to Australia together.
Nothing was enough, and according to Sheriff Judd of Florida,
he said every time that he got I don't know,
his phone taken away, something he didn't like, he.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Killed a person.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
I don't even think I'm buying what he said. In fact,
I'm not buying what he said about his father, that
it was self defense, and the sheriff said, look, I'm
sure of it. He would have killed the grandmother if
he was living with her long term. He was dangerous
that he was telling everyone around him what he planned
on doing.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Joining us behavioral expert, former FBI special agent, author of
Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction,
straight out to Robin Drake. Robin Drake, you're the behavioral expert.
Help me out here, you hear Peter Odom, a veteran
(10:53):
defense attorney who was once a homicide prosecutor, insisting, oh,
it's just another sad story of mental illness. I don't
think this guy is mentally ill.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I think he keeps.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Getting Baker acted, as it's called in Florida, Baker versus
the state is a case when someone is forced to
go for a mental evaluation. And when a son kills
a father, or a son kills a mother, a child
kills a parent, society thinks, oh gosh, they must be
(11:24):
menley ill. Society doesn't want to think, well, they're an
evil demon straight from hell. I want you to assess
this drake.
Speaker 7 (11:35):
Evil demon straight from hell describes psychopathy, which is exactly
what it looks like this kid is. And I do
agree that he's got a life pattern, a life arc
of trauma, of bad experiences, but that doesn't doesn't take
away from his choice to kill people and kill his parents.
Interesting with the mother, you know, and you said she
(11:56):
covered for him, and he always then asks, so what
inspe fired her to cover for him? And since some
claims that the Daily Mail put out about the father
being abusive to her for their twenty year marriage, I
really wonder if she was trauma bonded to him as well,
which allowed her and inspired her to cover for this
abhorrent behavior that he had and to have him actually
(12:19):
state he's going to do this act and everyone looked
the other way, probably because she said it was okay.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8 (12:36):
Now he's killed two people and killed his mother and father,
and I can assure you beyond into the exclusion of
every reasonable doubt based upon his conduct. Had he gone
to live with his grandmother at the end of this
and she crossed him, she would be next. He's violent,
(12:57):
he's dangerous. He showed zero remorse, zero remorse.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Can we talk about the injuries to his mother, and
by the way, that self defense ruling at the time
he shot his father a year before he stabbed his
mother dad, stabbing her multiple times in the neck, then
lying about it that she fell on the knife. That
case where the father was killed is now being reopened.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Why anyone took.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
His word for it that it was self defense is
a failure in investigation. It may turn out to be
self defense, but still that must be investigated before a
case is just chalked off a self defense. Long story short,
I want to go out to doctor Pria Banerjee and
determine what, if anything I can conclude from the stab
(13:55):
wounds to mom's neck. Doctor Pria Banerjee, Board certified forensic
pathologist and an atomic pathologist at Anchor Forensic Pathology. Doctor Priabantergy,
thank you for being with us. I mean, if you
want somebody dead in a hurry, you can stab them
in the heart or the neck.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Explain why, Yeah, you.
Speaker 9 (14:15):
Have vital structures in your neck, right, we all take
our pulse here. What does that mean? There's big blood
vessels that go up through your neck to your brain
and other parts of the body. So that's a very
easy access poit not much to go through and you
can stab or cut through the vessels very quickly, especially
with the kitchen knife.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
You know, I'm thinking about the Oh okay, there you
have a twelve inch knife, a fixed blade knife that
was used very similar to the murder weapon in the
Brian Coburger quadruple murder investigation.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The difference in a fixed blade and.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
For instance, let's just say a folding knife, a pen knife,
a scout knife, a Swiss arm they been, a fixed
blade does not and very often you will see the
stab er, the perpetrator stab and their hand will go.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Down the blade.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Peter odom and all your years of prosecuting and now
defending homicides, have you ever seen that happen?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Oh? Absolutely, it happens frequently.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It does happen frequently. I'm wondering if that was the
case here. But that said, I want to go now
to doctor Jory Crasin, psychologist, faculty at Saint Leo University
and consultant with the Blue Wall Institute. Jumping off Dr
Jory what doctor Priat just said. I've always contended and
(15:46):
I've never really gotten a good answer from a shrink. Well,
I've got an answers, but not an answer that satisfied me.
I still say that there is a completely different psychopathy,
a different mindset to someone that stabs their victim, as
opposed to, for instance.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
A sniper that shoots at a distance. You remember the
DC sniper. Let's see Malvo and.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I'll think of it in a moment, the duo that was.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Terrorizing the DC area.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You shoot at a distance, it's like the people aren't
even real It's like an ant far far away, or
suffocating someone with a pillow you don't see their face.
You just put the pillow over their head.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
They struggle, you hold them down, and it's all over.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
There's something about stabbing someone like Jody Arias for Pete's sake,
what was that twenty plus stabs and then she shot
them in the head to cap it off.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
There's a different mindset. What about it, doctor Jory.
Speaker 10 (16:47):
Yeah, all the forms of attack take a different behavior pattern,
and with that you can look at the cognitive process
and make assumptions from that. When you're dealing with extreme
violence like this, we have a thing called operational code analysis. Okay,
it's outside of the typical diagnostic criteria. What it does
(17:10):
is there's a code that they operate by as a methodology.
It's you know, the modus operendi. And this individual, when
you look at his operational code, look at the duplication.
Speaker 11 (17:22):
Of the immediate exertion of rights. He did that with
his father, he did that with his mother, And just
like Sheriff Grady Judge said, had grandmother been the third victim,
he would have followed that same operational code. Within that,
you can see a lot of repeated behavior patterns and
(17:44):
from that you can make assumptions psychologically as to know
his cognitive process.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Now I'm also looking for clues, clues as to what
really happened. I am not prepared to agree that this
teen son was mentally unstable, by far, not insane. Insane
under our jurisprudence means you don't know right from wrong
(18:12):
at the time of the incident. The fact that he
lied indicates to me he did know what he did
was wrong. But I want to talk for just one
moment about the mom's frame of mind. The mom's frame
of mind. Number one, We know that witnesses see him
(18:38):
drag his mom out of the house by her hair
at four point thirty pm the Sunday. She was killed
later that evening. Why people didn't call nine to one
one then, I'm not sure, But there was tension going
back to what the sheriff said, going back to what
(18:59):
doctor Jory's said. Robin Drake, Robin Drake, if you notice
when he is disciplined, and I'm wondering if this is
going to make Peter Odom squirm in his seat. Whenever
he gets disciplined, there's a violent reaction. Susan Hendrix listened
because I want you to confirm or correct whatever I'm saying.
(19:20):
I've got some of her last texts revealed. It says,
if Colin texts you again, please tell me he needs
to come home.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
He's violating probation.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
He's supposed to be off October six, but now he
will never be.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Hello, there you go, Susan Hendrix.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
She is threatening to tell his probation officer he's violating
the terms of probation.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Now she's dead.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
And I think that was at really her wits end,
meaning I've read some posts before that, and she spoke
about leaving his father and saying, after twenty plus years,
I should have done it earlier. And as your guest
mentioned earlier, as the doctor mentioned, there could have been
that trauma bond because in November of twenty twenty three,
her son was arrested for domestic violence against the mother.
(20:10):
Was it now the son that she had to deal with?
And it seemed like in that text that you read
she had had enough. But this went on over and
over again. The threats kept continuing. He said he was
going to do it over and over and I feel
like that mother was hoping that it wouldn't come true,
that he would change of course, trying to make it better.
And looking at those pictures right now on the screen
(20:32):
of mother and son, you would never know, You would
never know the smiles you can see, you.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Would never know showing looks Susan can be deceiving, Robin Drake.
What the sheriff was pointing out earlier, of the Polk
County sheriff, that every time he's disciplined, he has a
violent reaction. Here Mom is saying he's violating his probation
and I'm going to report him this time. This is
(20:58):
not going to continue happening. Now she's dead. Robin Drake.
Speaker 7 (21:02):
Yeah, he's fit in the behavior pattern that he's laid
out for himself. And what a what a dichotomy she
must have lived with in trying to be a mother
and a disciplinarian to raise him at the same time,
she's completely desensitized to the violence in her life and
not willing to take an action against it, both from
her husband at first and then from him, And that's
(21:23):
why she was covering for him and not believing and
having that hope which got her eventually killed because he
made a choice, Like you said, he is doing the
greatest evils on earth. And he's making a choice whether
he's got mental trauma or not. He's still making the
choice and very cognizant of that choice.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That photo in the flower dress and him in the
yellow shirt, I believe that's the one that she shared
online just before she was murdered.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I mean, Peter Odom.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Every time he's going to have his phone taken away,
or he's going to get in trouble, or he's going
to get reported for not following the rules, he has
a violent outburst.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Did you see the photo?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
This could be me and John David.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
For Pete's sake. There they are.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Look, they were at Air and Space Museum. There's a graduation.
She's taking him to DC. They're having all these fantastic
trips in good times.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
What why why you know?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Nancy, On the subject of mental illness, you mentioned that
that insanity means not knowing right from wrong, but it
can also mean something else that's very important in this case,
the inability to control one's behavior due to mental illness.
This represents a massive failure by the state to keep
(22:35):
this kid, you know, in a hospital. I mean, let's
say that there were red flags flapping all over the
place and everybody ignored them. This teenager did exactly what
he said he was going to do. He said he
was going to kill his mother and they and they
released him and they put him back with his mother.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
I just don't understand how how the government.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
They they they you're you're using all ten of your
fingers to point at everybody else.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
The system did it. They did it. It's always they.
He is the one. And what what you just said?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That doesn't make me feel any more warm and fuzzy tour.
He was this guy, he was on the rail that
he said, I'm gonna kill my mom.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, okay, he said it.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
That means planning an intent to me.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
He said it to authorities.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
They knew that he was going to and he had
killed his father under suspicious circumstances, and they ignored it,
and they put him back out into society. That should
not have happened. This was preventable.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Now Mom is dead.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Joining me A dear friend of mom, Catherine Griffith Eric
Reyes is joining us, mister Rays, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Being with us.
Speaker 12 (23:50):
It's good to be here, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Mister Rays, when did you learn that Catherine had been killed?
Speaker 12 (23:55):
I learned the day after it occurred that she was
she was killed, and unfortunately it was not a big surprise.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's just hard for me to take in this.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Mom did everything she could to help her son, got
him out of trouble.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I believe, covered for him when he.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Shot his dad a year before, gave him a brand
new car, got him through school, was at his beck
and call.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yet he turned on her.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Tell me your understanding of their relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
You say you're not surprised, No.
Speaker 12 (24:33):
I am not. She did do everything for him. They
want to and cruises. In fact, they just got back
from Chris, like only two or three days after, I
mean before she was killed. And she would help him
with school because she was a school teacher. She provided
a car, he had a job, he was getting counseling.
(24:53):
So she did everything she could as a loving mother
to help him, and she did everything she possibly could. Unfortunately,
of course it wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Derek, What would she tell you about her son?
Speaker 12 (25:06):
She did say that he had threatened to kill her.
She told that, I mean he told that to law enforcement,
He told that to everybody. I tried to convince her
and said, hey, you can't live together. Try to help him.
It's not safe and my concern. I got involved because
she was a victim of the battery last year, and
he battered her when he was a juvenile. I said,
(25:28):
you can't, you can't live together. But she, you know,
she wanted everything to help. It was like an undying
mother's love and unfortunately cost her her life. But she
won't listen to me. She won't listen to law enforcement
because she was when she was trying to help him.
And of course she loved Colin very much.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Why did he hate his mother so much?
Speaker 12 (25:50):
I don't know for sure. I believe he was abused
by the father years ago in Oklahoma. She was out
of the picture of time. I think she was abused
as well, so she's sort of for self preservation. Wasn't
in Oklahoma, so I'm speculating. But perhaps he somehow blamed
(26:10):
her because she didn't intervene or try to stop the
father from abusing him. That's my best guess here.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Did she ever reveal she thought he hated her?
Speaker 12 (26:23):
No, she did say that he's trying to kill her,
and he did, of course batter her, but she never
said that she thought Colin hated her. I mean they
were having fun on their cruises. I saw some of
the videos on social media. They seemed like they were
enjoying themselves. He was smiling, she was laughing. So as
far as that goes, no, I don't think enemy knew
(26:44):
he hated her at all.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Eric Rayes, did you say that she was murdered just
three days after they come home from her taking him
on a cruise.
Speaker 12 (26:57):
Yeah, she was soburning her birthday on the cruises round
Labor Day, and only a couple of days after that
when he killed her. And it's like, it's horrible.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So he was perfectly fine on the cruise. Mom's taking
videos of her son having a great time on port
adventures on the.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Ship, laughing, no problem.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But then as soon as she tries to discipline him
when they get back home, he kills her.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
How can I don't understand how.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
That can be mentally ill when you're perfectly fine as
long as everything is going your way, and then when
it doesn't go your way, you become.
Speaker 12 (27:40):
Violent, exactly. And again he had threatened to kill her before.
He wasn't doing his chores, so I think she tried
to discipline him by taking his phone away or his
ability to play video games, and that's I guess that's
when he snapped.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Unfortunately, guys, you are hearing Eric Ray is joining us.
A dear friend of now deceased Catherine Griffith. Tell me
about Catherine. I read all about her. I interview witnesses,
but no one can tell give me a picture of
who Catherine was.
Speaker 7 (28:14):
Well.
Speaker 12 (28:14):
She was a loving mother, and she was a great teacher.
She was a teacher here in Charlotte County, Florida. She
loved her students. I think the students really liked her,
and she enjoyed teaching. And she was a friend to
a lot of her students. And of course she was
a mother to Collins. She seemed very happy, she was smiling.
(28:36):
I first got involved represented in the you know, the
juvenih Linksky case, but then we became friends and we
would talk, you know, on the phone a lot. And
she was just a loving, giving person.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Guys, you are hearing Eric Ray is joining us. A
dear friend of now deceased Catherine Griffith. Tell me about Catherine.
I read all about her. I interview witnesses, but no
one can tell give me a picture of who Catherine was.
Speaker 7 (29:19):
Well.
Speaker 12 (29:20):
She was a loving mother, and she was a great teacher.
She was a teacher here in Charlotte County, Florida. She
loved her students. I think the students really liked her,
and she enjoyed teaching. And she was a friend to
a lot of her students. And of course she was
a mother to Collins. She seemed very happy, she was smiling.
(29:42):
I first got involved represented in the you know, the
juvenah Linsky case, but then we became friends and we
would talk, you know, on the phone a lot. And
she was just a loving, giving person.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
A heated argument unpolds outside the Griffins home, where witnesses
say they saw seventeen year old Griffith drag his mother
by her hair into the home. A short time later,
a nine to one one call is placed. Griffith's mother is.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Dead and that's him.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
The son, Colin Griffith, calling nine to one one, completely calm,
comes out of the house when police arrive and says
she fell on the knife. The phenomena of children killing
their parents, we all remember a thirteen year old little
boy actually described as timid, an honor student, seemingly angry
(30:36):
his mom had another child, a baby girl.
Speaker 9 (30:40):
Listen where else did you stop her old then catting
her neck?
Speaker 12 (30:44):
Where is your sister?
Speaker 13 (30:47):
She's in her grip sleeping.
Speaker 9 (30:49):
How old is your sister?
Speaker 3 (30:52):
She's only a week old?
Speaker 12 (30:55):
Okay, and you did not touch her?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Correct?
Speaker 9 (30:58):
No, I did not touch you.
Speaker 8 (30:59):
I don't want to such my sister.
Speaker 9 (31:01):
I need to know if your mom is age breathing.
Speaker 13 (31:04):
She said, I have the.
Speaker 12 (31:07):
Gun with me.
Speaker 13 (31:08):
I was gonna shoot myself, but I didn't want to.
Speaker 8 (31:10):
I didn't want to. I pulled back to the side.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
But I did not see perfectly coherent, perfectly sane, angry,
we believe, are frustrated because his mom has a baby
girl with the step dad. Straight back out to veteran
trial lawyer or now defense attorney with a high profile
defense team at Price Benowitz in d C. Peter Odem
(31:37):
former homicide prosecutor. Did you hear that teen boy, just thirteen, calm,
coherent describing stabbing his mother in the neck, just like
Colin Griffith Nancy.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
One thing we have to remember about children, particularly teenagers,
is that they have zero impulse control. You know, at
seventeen years old, At thirteen years old, one's brain isn't
really even fully formed. I'm sure any of the psychologists
that are on your show would would agree with that.
There are two things that the criminal justice system doesn't
do well. We just haven't gotten correct yet. One of
(32:15):
them is juveniles. We don't know how to deal with
juveniles in the criminal justice system, and also the mentally ill,
we don't know exactly how to deal with them. In
this case, in the Colin Griffith case, we have both
those failures brought into sharp relief. This was a teenager,
a juvenile in the eyes of the law, though he's
being treated as an adult, and a person that has
(32:36):
twice been hospitalized for significant mental health problems. It's really
no wonder that this happened. He did exactly what he said.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
He was hereater.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
You keep saying he was hospitalized because of mental health problems.
He was baker acted because of violence at home, one
of those being shooting his dad. So our system, you're right,
doesn't I know exactly what to do because it automatic assumes, Wow,
that kid must be crazy, must be insane, who would.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Hurt their parent.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
But as you heard Derek Rossa, who was speaking calmly
and was simply frustrated, his mom was sleeping with step
dad and had a baby. He had been the only
child for so long. You, Peter Odom, left with no alternative.
You first claim mental instability, then the system can't deal
with it. Then you say, and the system can't deal
(33:27):
with jeeveniles that kill all Right now, in desperation, you
merge the two, and you're throwing me a hybrid defense
of the system can't handle a jevenile that kills, and
the system doesn't know how to handle mentley ill. Correction,
the system has been dealing with the menley ill for decades.
(33:47):
That's why uh Andrea Yates is still behind bars for
killing all of her children because she's mentally ill.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
According to some experts.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
This young man responded with violence every time he was disciplined. Peter,
do you not see the difference in this?
Speaker 3 (34:04):
All the criminal justice system can do, Nancy, is to
punish and incarcerate, And when we're dealing with true mental illness,
that's not what's required treatment, hospitalization, medication, et cetera. So
I guess you and I can just disagree on whether
our criminal justice system deals well or appropriately with the
mentally ill. I deal with mentally ill clients all the time,
(34:26):
and our system simply can't appropriately deal with them because
punishment and incarceration are not getting at the root of
the problem.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Well, you may be right, I don't disagree that our
system is hamstrung. There's snake bit because a lot of people,
such as drug and alcohol addicts, they need help, not
just jail. I think they should have jail and help.
So I agree with you to an extent, But the
crux of what I'm arguing is I'm not convinced Colin
(34:55):
Griffith was mentally insane or delusional. He seemed to know
exactly what he was doing. Here's another example, Tyler Hadley,
who killed his parents because they were trying to get
him in rehab.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Listen, it's kind of learning, it kind of good.
Speaker 13 (35:13):
Someone had a party tonight and someone reported that this
could have killed their parents. He told me that the
kid tap up and he was like, uh. He told
me like he told me that like the gift of it,
that he did something to his parents, and I was like, bro,
I don't want to know any details. He said he
already called and reported everything to crimestoppers. I was just
(35:35):
calling because I felt like I needed to.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
In the case of Tyler Hadley, he was angry because
his parents wanted him to get help with addiction, and
he didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
He wanted to.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Have a big party at the house where there were
there was booze and drugs.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
They didn't want him to have the party, so he
killed them.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I'm seeing doctor Jory Crausen, a psychologist. A lot of
responses inappropriate and uncontrolled responses to stimuli such as mom
having a baby with stepdad, or mom saying you can't
have a party, or some other reasons.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Some other discipline, such as in.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
The current case where mom took away video games or
mom threatened to call probation, and that uncontrolled response is
violence is murder. That does not equal mental disturbance or insanity,
doctor Jory, when.
Speaker 14 (36:35):
You're dealing with a violent person, that doesn't necessarily mean
that they are you have a mental illness. We could
fit them into a diagnosis, but an aggressive violent personality
and they respond inappropriate like this young man did, it's
outside the realm of treatment. You have to then here
(36:57):
in Florida with the Baker Act, we kind of then
move it into the criminal justice system. Just like he
was on probation, he violated that probation, then they would
come and lock him up to protect his mother. The
mother you know, god lover, she's really demonstrated motherly love,
but she really wasn't a neutral person to protect herself
(37:20):
from him.
Speaker 8 (37:21):
Twelfth of February in twenty twenty four, he has an
argument with his mother and he runs away from Charlotte
County and comes back to Auburndale to his grandmother's house.
Now his grandmother's not there. The grandmother said, hey, we
(37:42):
don't feel safe with him around. So our deputies, who
found him up here as a missing person's reported in
Charlotte County, turned him over to DCF.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You are hearing Paul County sheer of Grady Judd and more.
Speaker 8 (37:56):
Two days later, on the fourteenth of February, the end
anniversary of him killing his dad a year ago, he's
reunited with his mother by DCF. Colin made the statement
that I don't want to go home. I'll use any
force necessary to avoid it, to include killing my mother.
(38:20):
So that's the second time he threatened to kill his mother.
So they didn't make him go home on the fourteenth,
but about two weeks later, in March twenty twenty four,
they reunite Colin with his mother again, everybody's calmed down.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Peter Hudham is correct.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
He warned everyone he was going to kill his mother,
very calmly and very coherently, which in my mind rules
out a mental illness.
Speaker 8 (38:44):
And then list say, September sixth, Colin has an argument
about home chores and he flees from his mother's house
again and comes up to his grandmother's house. Grandmother's not there.
Mom calm lets the event calm down, and she tells
(39:04):
her son, Hey, you need to come home, and she
asked him to come home and faces responsibility. Collins says,
I'm not coming back home. That was September seventh.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Robin Drake behavior analysts formally with the FBI weigh in, Yeah, what.
Speaker 7 (39:21):
We see here is so predominantly just not with his case,
but all the other case you mentioned. It's a lack
of control. Every time he has a lack of control
in his life, he's going from zero to murder. And
it's like he said, and everyone else has been saying,
it's so predictable, and it's this lack of ability to
solve problems in a healthy way, which has also been mentioned.
(39:44):
It's exactly what happened here is zero to one hundred
when he loses control and murder his his escape route.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Doctor Priya Banerjee joining a sports certified pathologist, Doctor Priya
how long would mom have lain in the floor, bleeding
out with her son towering over her before she died?
Speaker 9 (40:03):
Very quickly, So I just want to say, two wounds.
You don't fall on a knife and create two wounds
and you're going to injure again major blood vessels. So
I would say within seconds to a minute or two.
It's very short.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Susan Hendricks, what's next? You know, it's just horrific.
Speaker 6 (40:22):
The system failed the mother and her last post is eerie.
It's lyrics from Taylor Swift saying sometimes giving up is
the strong thing. No one was there to help her.
Of course he isn't getting out now, but it's too
late for the moment.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
We wait as just a sun falls. Goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A teen's son says, Mommy fell on a knife. This
one year after he shoots dad dead tonight. Mommy's last
texts revealed good evening at Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us. I don't even know
what to say. Really, in my left speechless a kitchen
(00:29):
knife plunged in her neck and when police arrived, it's
still protruding from Mommy's neck, not one, but two stabs.
I gotta think about that, the two stabs. Many people
will argue a fight broke out.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
It was a heated argument. I was out of my
mind with anger.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
But the law says premeditation can be formed in an instant,
the twinkling of an eye, a moment, as long as
it takes to raise the gun and pull the trigger.
For instance, the fact that there were two stabs means
there's time to form intent. Who stabbed mom? Joining me
(01:11):
an all star panel? But first, before I get into
the facts.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm going to go out to a renowned.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Veteran trial lawyer, a partner at Price Benewitz's leading criminal
defense attorney with the law firm in DC, and former
homicide prosecutor joining me, Peter, odum, Peter, don't even you
have to agree that intent can be formed as the
(01:38):
law said. I'm sure he recalled Joseh Luther Alverson as
he would tell juries in the twinkling of an eye,
his words, not mine, and it upheld scrutiny all the way.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Up to the appellate courts. Wouldn't you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I agree with that, but I don't think that's where
this case is headed. This is not going to be
a case about intent, Nancy. This is going to be
a case about metal illness. And of course, I mean,
this is a terrible tragedy many times over. And what's
terribly tragic about is that two parents are dead at
the hands of their own child. What really compounds this tragedy, though,
(02:13):
is that this was entirely preventable, particularly the second murder.
Colin Griffiths suffered from a severe hold on.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Hold on, Peter, I respect your prowess in the courtroom,
but can you hear yourself? This was entirely preventable, especially
that second murder. Yeah, okay, let that ring in your
ears for just a few moments, because when police got there,
the son, the teen's son, who had just been given
(02:41):
a new car by mommy.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
As a matter of fact, right.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Before she was stabbed, she okay, she even went the
extra mile and got the big red boat to put
on it.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I know all about that.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh, look there they are. She's taking him everywhere. Just
before she was murdered, she shared a photo of herself
and her son.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Then bam, she's dead. You know, Peter, you know my children?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
How many hundreds thousands have photos?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Have I forced you and others to look?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
At me with John Davy, meet with Lucy, meet with
the twins. Here, we're at six Flags. Here, we're at Grandma's.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Blah blah.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
She just posted one of those and then bam, she's dead.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Oh it's it's horrible, Nancy. It's it's terrible. It's a
it's a terribly violent death. And what compounds it is
if he killed his own father under what have to
be described as suspicious circumstances just a year and a
half ago.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But I don't see this case.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
You can't claim he was mentally ill then too well?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Absolutely, you know, Nancy, this this teen has been twice
involuntarily hospitalized under the under Florida's Baker Act.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
You know, you don't.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
You don't get involuntarily if you're not let out twice.
And that's what I mean when I say the tragedy
is compounded by negligence by the state. This teen should
have been hospitalized, he should have been segregated from society,
and yet this killer fish was put back into the
tank twice.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
They knew he had violent tendencies.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Okay, So Peter odom So when he comes out, when
he walks out and he sees police, he says, oh,
And this is after making a completely coherent nine to
one one call, going my mom is bleeding from the neck.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
You need to come take care of her.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And when he came out, he not only came out
completely calm, cool and collected, he had the wherewithal to lie. Now,
I'm going to go to our shrink, doctor Joy Crawlson
in just a moment. But if you're crazy, why would
you have the wherewithal, the knowledge, the coming to lie immediately?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
But wait, let's get the facts. First of all, listen
to this.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Catherine Valantez is just fifteen when she welcomes a baby
with high school sweetheart Charles Griffith. A couple times that night,
but stay close to home in Shawnee, Oklahoma, while Catherine
earns a degree. Both parents worked to support the young family.
Catherine as an online teacher for extra time with son Christopher.
Seven years later, the couple welcome as a second child,
and to keep the tradition of CG initials, they named
(05:15):
the little boy Colin.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
She gives up everything in order to raise her children,
even working online. This is the mom that was stabbed
in the neck. This is the mom who covered for
her son when he killed his father, telling authorities, oh,
it was self defense, let him out because society couldn't
(05:37):
believe a son would kill his dad, so they thought, hey,
he must be mentally ill. But the way he came
out of that house, Susan Hendrix tells me an altogether
different story, joining me, journalist, investigative reporter, author of Down
the Hill, My Descent into the double Murder in Delphi.
(05:58):
Susan Hendricks joining us, Susan, tell me what happened when
this young man comes out of the house and says,
my mom's in there. She's bleeding from the neck, just
as calm and.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Cool, chilling.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Not only what he said, what he didn't say. It's
my mom come help immediately. No, I know my rights.
I want an attorney. He knew exactly what he was doing.
I feel like he's manipulated the system four years.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And wait a minute, I knew he came out cool
as a cucumber.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
I did not know.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You just told me something new. He came out and said,
I know my rights. I want a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Did you just say that? Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (06:39):
That's exactly what he said?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Covered him wood.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Okay, hold on, hold on, Peter Odom, the guy that
you say is crazy comes out and looks the cops
right in the face and goes, I know my rights.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I want a long Nancy.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Really crazy as your word, the law really doesn't use
that word. He is mentally ill and there's really no
question about that. He has been twice hospitalized. That means
that he had to be proven by a preponderance of
the evidence to be mentally ill enough that he was
a danger to himself or others. So there's really no
question that this team.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
When was he bakered, Let's find out when was he
Baker act to Susan?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
When did he get bakerd.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
There are two dates that stand out to me. One
was in September twenty twenty three. I know that he
was held for seventy two hours. He made threats inside
of that hole. During that hold. They kept him for
an additional five days, eight days total. He said exactly
what he was going to do. The prosecutor in Oklahoma
was asked, you regret not charging him for the murder
(07:43):
of his father. He said, no, it's impossible to predict
someone's future behaviors. No, it's not not when they tell
you and everyone around them what they're going to do.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Didn't his Baker Act coincide with him stabbing his father?
Speaker 6 (07:59):
It did, but it seemed like he slipped through the cracks.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, and then the second Baker Act, wasn't it when
he attacked his mother in November?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
He killed his father Feb.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Fourteen, Valentine's Day, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
He's bakered.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
In other words, you're putting a put in a mental
facility and you're analyzed. They decide, hey, he's fine, we
can let him go. He was put there because the
system didn't know what else to.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Do with him.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Why else would he shoot his dad if he wasn't
mentally ill? So they go test him. He's released then
November twenty twenty three, he assaults his mother.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
He attacks her.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Then he's bakered again because people think, well, why would
you attack your mom? You must be mentally ill. Does
that coincide with his baker acts?
Speaker 6 (08:50):
Susan, well, I think there's a lot of facets here.
So he was held an additional time at the seventy
two hour hold, but it's not a long term facility,
so they were only able to keep him for a
certain amount of times. He made threats there as well.
He said, I did it before, I'll do it again.
I'll throw her out of a car, I'll shoot her,
I'll stab her. He said exactly what he was going
(09:12):
to do. Sheriff Judd of Florida seems to be the
only one that said, look, I held up a picture
of him and say, you see a kid, I see
a psychopath, as could have been prevented because of how
many threats were made.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Susan Hendrix of the teen boy that has killed not
only his father but his mother too. This after she
defends him and the death of the father gets him
out of jail, he hates her. He goes back to
live with her and she ends up deck can you
tell me about the new car.
Speaker 6 (09:44):
Susan his twenty six thousand dollars he graduated from high
school to me, never ever, ever do I blame the mother.
It was her unconditional love though, and the forgiveness, and
I think coddling. Maybe she felt guilt about the divorce.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Six thousand dollars card. They also went to Australia together.
Nothing was enough, and according to Sheriff Judd of Florida,
he said every time that he got I don't know,
his phone taken away, something he didn't like, he.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Killed a person.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
I don't even think I'm buying what he said. In fact,
I'm not buying what he said about his father, that
it was self defense, and the sheriff said, look, I'm
sure of it. He would have killed the grandmother if
he was living with her long term. He was dangerous
that he was telling everyone around him what he planned
on doing.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Joining us behavioral expert, former FBI special agent, author of
Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction,
straight out to Robin Drake. Robin Drake, you're the behavioral expert.
Help me out here, you hear Peter Odom, a veteran
(10:53):
defense attorney who was once a homicide prosecutor, insisting, oh,
it's just another sad story of mental illness. I don't
think this guy is mentally ill.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I think he keeps.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Getting Baker acted, as it's called in Florida, Baker versus
the state is a case when someone is forced to
go for a mental evaluation. And when a son kills
a father, or a son kills a mother, a child
kills a parent, society thinks, oh gosh, they must be
(11:24):
menley ill. Society doesn't want to think, well, they're an
evil demon straight from hell. I want you to assess
this drake.
Speaker 7 (11:35):
Evil demon straight from hell describes psychopathy, which is exactly
what it looks like this kid is. And I do
agree that he's got a life pattern, a life arc
of trauma, of bad experiences, but that doesn't doesn't take
away from his choice to kill people and kill his parents.
Interesting with the mother, you know, and you said she
(11:56):
covered for him, and he always then asks, so what
inspe fired her to cover for him? And since some
claims that the Daily Mail put out about the father
being abusive to her for their twenty year marriage, I
really wonder if she was trauma bonded to him as well,
which allowed her and inspired her to cover for this
abhorrent behavior that he had and to have him actually
(12:19):
state he's going to do this act and everyone looked
the other way, probably because she said it was okay.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8 (12:36):
Now he's killed two people and killed his mother and father,
and I can assure you beyond into the exclusion of
every reasonable doubt based upon his conduct. Had he gone
to live with his grandmother at the end of this
and she crossed him, she would be next. He's violent,
(12:57):
he's dangerous. He showed zero remorse, zero remorse.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Can we talk about the injuries to his mother, and
by the way, that self defense ruling at the time
he shot his father a year before he stabbed his
mother dad, stabbing her multiple times in the neck, then
lying about it that she fell on the knife. That
case where the father was killed is now being reopened.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Why anyone took.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
His word for it that it was self defense is
a failure in investigation. It may turn out to be
self defense, but still that must be investigated before a
case is just chalked off a self defense. Long story short,
I want to go out to doctor Pria Banerjee and
determine what, if anything I can conclude from the stab
(13:55):
wounds to mom's neck. Doctor Pria Banerjee, Board certified forensic
pathologist and an atomic pathologist at Anchor Forensic Pathology. Doctor Priabantergy,
thank you for being with us. I mean, if you
want somebody dead in a hurry, you can stab them
in the heart or the neck.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Explain why, Yeah, you.
Speaker 9 (14:15):
Have vital structures in your neck, right, we all take
our pulse here. What does that mean? There's big blood
vessels that go up through your neck to your brain
and other parts of the body. So that's a very
easy access poit not much to go through and you
can stab or cut through the vessels very quickly, especially
with the kitchen knife.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
You know, I'm thinking about the Oh okay, there you
have a twelve inch knife, a fixed blade knife that
was used very similar to the murder weapon in the
Brian Coburger quadruple murder investigation.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
The difference in a fixed blade and.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
For instance, let's just say a folding knife, a pen knife,
a scout knife, a Swiss arm they been, a fixed
blade does not and very often you will see the
stab er, the perpetrator stab and their hand will go.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Down the blade.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Peter odom and all your years of prosecuting and now
defending homicides, have you ever seen that happen?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Oh? Absolutely, it happens frequently.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It does happen frequently. I'm wondering if that was the
case here. But that said, I want to go now
to doctor Jory Crasin, psychologist, faculty at Saint Leo University
and consultant with the Blue Wall Institute. Jumping off Dr
Jory what doctor Priat just said. I've always contended and
(15:46):
I've never really gotten a good answer from a shrink. Well,
I've got an answers, but not an answer that satisfied me.
I still say that there is a completely different psychopathy,
a different mindset to someone that stabs their victim, as
opposed to, for instance.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
A sniper that shoots at a distance. You remember the
DC sniper. Let's see Malvo and.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I'll think of it in a moment, the duo that was.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Terrorizing the DC area.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You shoot at a distance, it's like the people aren't
even real It's like an ant far far away, or
suffocating someone with a pillow you don't see their face.
You just put the pillow over their head.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
They struggle, you hold them down, and it's all over.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
There's something about stabbing someone like Jody Arias for Pete's sake,
what was that twenty plus stabs and then she shot
them in the head to cap it off.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
There's a different mindset. What about it, doctor Jory.
Speaker 10 (16:47):
Yeah, all the forms of attack take a different behavior pattern,
and with that you can look at the cognitive process
and make assumptions from that. When you're dealing with extreme
violence like this, we have a thing called operational code analysis. Okay,
it's outside of the typical diagnostic criteria. What it does
(17:10):
is there's a code that they operate by as a methodology.
It's you know, the modus operendi. And this individual, when
you look at his operational code, look at the duplication.
Speaker 11 (17:22):
Of the immediate exertion of rights. He did that with
his father, he did that with his mother, And just
like Sheriff Grady Judge said, had grandmother been the third victim,
he would have followed that same operational code. Within that,
you can see a lot of repeated behavior patterns and
(17:44):
from that you can make assumptions psychologically as to know
his cognitive process.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Now I'm also looking for clues, clues as to what
really happened. I am not prepared to agree that this
teen son was mentally unstable, by far, not insane. Insane
under our jurisprudence means you don't know right from wrong
(18:12):
at the time of the incident. The fact that he
lied indicates to me he did know what he did
was wrong. But I want to talk for just one
moment about the mom's frame of mind. The mom's frame
of mind. Number one, We know that witnesses see him
(18:38):
drag his mom out of the house by her hair
at four point thirty pm the Sunday. She was killed
later that evening. Why people didn't call nine to one
one then, I'm not sure, But there was tension going
back to what the sheriff said, going back to what
(18:59):
doctor Jory's said. Robin Drake, Robin Drake, if you notice
when he is disciplined, and I'm wondering if this is
going to make Peter Odom squirm in his seat. Whenever
he gets disciplined, there's a violent reaction. Susan Hendrix listened
because I want you to confirm or correct whatever I'm saying.
(19:20):
I've got some of her last texts revealed. It says,
if Colin texts you again, please tell me he needs
to come home.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
He's violating probation.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
He's supposed to be off October six, but now he
will never be.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Hello, there you go, Susan Hendrix.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
She is threatening to tell his probation officer he's violating
the terms of probation.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Now she's dead.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
And I think that was at really her wits end,
meaning I've read some posts before that, and she spoke
about leaving his father and saying, after twenty plus years,
I should have done it earlier. And as your guest
mentioned earlier, as the doctor mentioned, there could have been
that trauma bond because in November of twenty twenty three,
her son was arrested for domestic violence against the mother.
(20:10):
Was it now the son that she had to deal with?
And it seemed like in that text that you read
she had had enough. But this went on over and
over again. The threats kept continuing. He said he was
going to do it over and over and I feel
like that mother was hoping that it wouldn't come true,
that he would change of course, trying to make it better.
And looking at those pictures right now on the screen
(20:32):
of mother and son, you would never know, You would
never know the smiles you can see, you.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Would never know showing looks Susan can be deceiving, Robin Drake.
What the sheriff was pointing out earlier, of the Polk
County sheriff, that every time he's disciplined, he has a
violent reaction. Here Mom is saying he's violating his probation
and I'm going to report him this time. This is
(20:58):
not going to continue happening. Now she's dead. Robin Drake.
Speaker 7 (21:02):
Yeah, he's fit in the behavior pattern that he's laid
out for himself. And what a what a dichotomy she
must have lived with in trying to be a mother
and a disciplinarian to raise him at the same time,
she's completely desensitized to the violence in her life and
not willing to take an action against it, both from
her husband at first and then from him, And that's
(21:23):
why she was covering for him and not believing and
having that hope which got her eventually killed because he
made a choice, Like you said, he is doing the
greatest evils on earth. And he's making a choice whether
he's got mental trauma or not. He's still making the
choice and very cognizant of that choice.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That photo in the flower dress and him in the
yellow shirt, I believe that's the one that she shared
online just before she was murdered.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I mean, Peter Odom.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Every time he's going to have his phone taken away,
or he's going to get in trouble, or he's going
to get reported for not following the rules, he has
a violent outburst.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Did you see the photo?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
This could be me and John David.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
For Pete's sake. There they are.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Look, they were at Air and Space Museum. There's a graduation.
She's taking him to DC. They're having all these fantastic
trips in good times.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
What why why you know?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Nancy, On the subject of mental illness, you mentioned that
that insanity means not knowing right from wrong, but it
can also mean something else that's very important in this case,
the inability to control one's behavior due to mental illness.
This represents a massive failure by the state to keep
(22:35):
this kid, you know, in a hospital. I mean, let's
say that there were red flags flapping all over the
place and everybody ignored them. This teenager did exactly what
he said he was going to do. He said he
was going to kill his mother and they and they
released him and they put him back with his mother.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
I just don't understand how how the government.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
They they they you're you're using all ten of your
fingers to point at everybody else.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
The system did it. They did it. It's always they.
He is the one. And what what you just said?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That doesn't make me feel any more warm and fuzzy tour.
He was this guy, he was on the rail that
he said, I'm gonna kill my mom.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, okay, he said it.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
That means planning an intent to me.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
He said it to authorities.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
They knew that he was going to and he had
killed his father under suspicious circumstances, and they ignored it,
and they put him back out into society. That should
not have happened. This was preventable.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Now Mom is dead.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Joining me A dear friend of mom, Catherine Griffith Eric
Reyes is joining us, mister Rays, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Being with us.
Speaker 12 (23:50):
It's good to be here, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Mister Rays, when did you learn that Catherine had been killed?
Speaker 12 (23:55):
I learned the day after it occurred that she was
she was killed, and unfortunately it was not a big surprise.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's just hard for me to take in this.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Mom did everything she could to help her son, got
him out of trouble.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I believe, covered for him when he.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Shot his dad a year before, gave him a brand
new car, got him through school, was at his beck
and call.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yet he turned on her.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Tell me your understanding of their relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
You say you're not surprised, No.
Speaker 12 (24:33):
I am not. She did do everything for him. They
want to and cruises. In fact, they just got back
from Chris, like only two or three days after, I
mean before she was killed. And she would help him
with school because she was a school teacher. She provided
a car, he had a job, he was getting counseling.
(24:53):
So she did everything she could as a loving mother
to help him, and she did everything she possibly could. Unfortunately,
of course it wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Derek, What would she tell you about her son?
Speaker 12 (25:06):
She did say that he had threatened to kill her.
She told that, I mean he told that to law enforcement,
He told that to everybody. I tried to convince her
and said, hey, you can't live together. Try to help him.
It's not safe and my concern. I got involved because
she was a victim of the battery last year, and
he battered her when he was a juvenile. I said,
(25:28):
you can't, you can't live together. But she, you know,
she wanted everything to help. It was like an undying
mother's love and unfortunately cost her her life. But she
won't listen to me. She won't listen to law enforcement
because she was when she was trying to help him.
And of course she loved Colin very much.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Why did he hate his mother so much?
Speaker 12 (25:50):
I don't know for sure. I believe he was abused
by the father years ago in Oklahoma. She was out
of the picture of time. I think she was abused
as well, so she's sort of for self preservation. Wasn't
in Oklahoma, so I'm speculating. But perhaps he somehow blamed
(26:10):
her because she didn't intervene or try to stop the
father from abusing him. That's my best guess here.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Did she ever reveal she thought he hated her?
Speaker 12 (26:23):
No, she did say that he's trying to kill her,
and he did, of course batter her, but she never
said that she thought Colin hated her. I mean they
were having fun on their cruises. I saw some of
the videos on social media. They seemed like they were
enjoying themselves. He was smiling, she was laughing. So as
far as that goes, no, I don't think enemy knew
(26:44):
he hated her at all.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Eric Rayes, did you say that she was murdered just
three days after they come home from her taking him
on a cruise.
Speaker 12 (26:57):
Yeah, she was soburning her birthday on the cruises round
Labor Day, and only a couple of days after that
when he killed her. And it's like, it's horrible.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So he was perfectly fine on the cruise. Mom's taking
videos of her son having a great time on port
adventures on the.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Ship, laughing, no problem.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But then as soon as she tries to discipline him
when they get back home, he kills her.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
How can I don't understand how.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
That can be mentally ill when you're perfectly fine as
long as everything is going your way, and then when
it doesn't go your way, you become.
Speaker 12 (27:40):
Violent, exactly. And again he had threatened to kill her before.
He wasn't doing his chores, so I think she tried
to discipline him by taking his phone away or his
ability to play video games, and that's I guess that's
when he snapped.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Unfortunately, guys, you are hearing Eric Ray is joining us.
A dear friend of now deceased Catherine Griffith. Tell me
about Catherine. I read all about her. I interview witnesses,
but no one can tell give me a picture of
who Catherine was.
Speaker 7 (28:14):
Well.
Speaker 12 (28:14):
She was a loving mother, and she was a great teacher.
She was a teacher here in Charlotte County, Florida. She
loved her students. I think the students really liked her,
and she enjoyed teaching. And she was a friend to
a lot of her students. And of course she was
a mother to Collins. She seemed very happy, she was smiling.
(28:36):
I first got involved represented in the you know, the
juvenih Linksky case, but then we became friends and we
would talk, you know, on the phone a lot. And
she was just a loving, giving person.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Guys, you are hearing Eric Ray is joining us. A
dear friend of now deceased Catherine Griffith. Tell me about Catherine.
I read all about her. I interview witnesses, but no
one can tell give me a picture of who Catherine was.
Speaker 7 (29:19):
Well.
Speaker 12 (29:20):
She was a loving mother, and she was a great teacher.
She was a teacher here in Charlotte County, Florida. She
loved her students. I think the students really liked her,
and she enjoyed teaching. And she was a friend to
a lot of her students. And of course she was
a mother to Collins. She seemed very happy, she was smiling.
(29:42):
I first got involved represented in the you know, the
juvenah Linsky case, but then we became friends and we
would talk, you know, on the phone a lot. And
she was just a loving, giving person.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
A heated argument unpolds outside the Griffins home, where witnesses
say they saw seventeen year old Griffith drag his mother
by her hair into the home. A short time later,
a nine to one one call is placed. Griffith's mother is.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Dead and that's him.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
The son, Colin Griffith, calling nine to one one, completely calm,
comes out of the house when police arrive and says
she fell on the knife. The phenomena of children killing
their parents, we all remember a thirteen year old little
boy actually described as timid, an honor student, seemingly angry
(30:36):
his mom had another child, a baby girl.
Speaker 9 (30:40):
Listen where else did you stop her old then catting
her neck?
Speaker 12 (30:44):
Where is your sister?
Speaker 13 (30:47):
She's in her grip sleeping.
Speaker 9 (30:49):
How old is your sister?
Speaker 3 (30:52):
She's only a week old?
Speaker 12 (30:55):
Okay, and you did not touch her?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Correct?
Speaker 9 (30:58):
No, I did not touch you.
Speaker 8 (30:59):
I don't want to such my sister.
Speaker 9 (31:01):
I need to know if your mom is age breathing.
Speaker 13 (31:04):
She said, I have the.
Speaker 12 (31:07):
Gun with me.
Speaker 13 (31:08):
I was gonna shoot myself, but I didn't want to.
Speaker 8 (31:10):
I didn't want to. I pulled back to the side.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
But I did not see perfectly coherent, perfectly sane, angry,
we believe, are frustrated because his mom has a baby
girl with the step dad. Straight back out to veteran
trial lawyer or now defense attorney with a high profile
defense team at Price Benowitz in d C. Peter Odem
(31:37):
former homicide prosecutor. Did you hear that teen boy, just thirteen, calm,
coherent describing stabbing his mother in the neck, just like
Colin Griffith Nancy.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
One thing we have to remember about children, particularly teenagers,
is that they have zero impulse control. You know, at
seventeen years old, At thirteen years old, one's brain isn't
really even fully formed. I'm sure any of the psychologists
that are on your show would would agree with that.
There are two things that the criminal justice system doesn't
do well. We just haven't gotten correct yet. One of
(32:15):
them is juveniles. We don't know how to deal with
juveniles in the criminal justice system, and also the mentally ill,
we don't know exactly how to deal with them. In
this case, in the Colin Griffith case, we have both
those failures brought into sharp relief. This was a teenager,
a juvenile in the eyes of the law, though he's
being treated as an adult, and a person that has
(32:36):
twice been hospitalized for significant mental health problems. It's really
no wonder that this happened. He did exactly what he said.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
He was hereater.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
You keep saying he was hospitalized because of mental health problems.
He was baker acted because of violence at home, one
of those being shooting his dad. So our system, you're right,
doesn't I know exactly what to do because it automatic assumes, Wow,
that kid must be crazy, must be insane, who would.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Hurt their parent.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
But as you heard Derek Rossa, who was speaking calmly
and was simply frustrated, his mom was sleeping with step
dad and had a baby. He had been the only
child for so long. You, Peter Odom, left with no alternative.
You first claim mental instability, then the system can't deal
with it. Then you say, and the system can't deal
(33:27):
with jeeveniles that kill all Right now, in desperation, you
merge the two, and you're throwing me a hybrid defense
of the system can't handle a jevenile that kills, and
the system doesn't know how to handle mentley ill. Correction,
the system has been dealing with the menley ill for decades.
(33:47):
That's why uh Andrea Yates is still behind bars for
killing all of her children because she's mentally ill.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
According to some experts.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
This young man responded with violence every time he was disciplined. Peter,
do you not see the difference in this?
Speaker 3 (34:04):
All the criminal justice system can do, Nancy, is to
punish and incarcerate, And when we're dealing with true mental illness,
that's not what's required treatment, hospitalization, medication, et cetera. So
I guess you and I can just disagree on whether
our criminal justice system deals well or appropriately with the
mentally ill. I deal with mentally ill clients all the time,
(34:26):
and our system simply can't appropriately deal with them because
punishment and incarceration are not getting at the root of
the problem.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Well, you may be right, I don't disagree that our
system is hamstrung. There's snake bit because a lot of people,
such as drug and alcohol addicts, they need help, not
just jail. I think they should have jail and help.
So I agree with you to an extent, But the
crux of what I'm arguing is I'm not convinced Colin
(34:55):
Griffith was mentally insane or delusional. He seemed to know
exactly what he was doing. Here's another example, Tyler Hadley,
who killed his parents because they were trying to get
him in rehab.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Listen, it's kind of learning, it kind of good.
Speaker 13 (35:13):
Someone had a party tonight and someone reported that this
could have killed their parents. He told me that the
kid tap up and he was like, uh. He told
me like he told me that like the gift of it,
that he did something to his parents, and I was like, bro,
I don't want to know any details. He said he
already called and reported everything to crimestoppers. I was just
(35:35):
calling because I felt like I needed to.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
In the case of Tyler Hadley, he was angry because
his parents wanted him to get help with addiction, and
he didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
He wanted to.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Have a big party at the house where there were
there was booze and drugs.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
They didn't want him to have the party, so he
killed them.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I'm seeing doctor Jory Crausen, a psychologist. A lot of
responses inappropriate and uncontrolled responses to stimuli such as mom
having a baby with stepdad, or mom saying you can't
have a party, or some other reasons.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Some other discipline, such as in.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
The current case where mom took away video games or
mom threatened to call probation, and that uncontrolled response is
violence is murder. That does not equal mental disturbance or insanity,
doctor Jory, when.
Speaker 14 (36:35):
You're dealing with a violent person, that doesn't necessarily mean
that they are you have a mental illness. We could
fit them into a diagnosis, but an aggressive violent personality
and they respond inappropriate like this young man did, it's
outside the realm of treatment. You have to then here
(36:57):
in Florida with the Baker Act, we kind of then
move it into the criminal justice system. Just like he
was on probation, he violated that probation, then they would
come and lock him up to protect his mother. The
mother you know, god lover, she's really demonstrated motherly love,
but she really wasn't a neutral person to protect herself
(37:20):
from him.
Speaker 8 (37:21):
Twelfth of February in twenty twenty four, he has an
argument with his mother and he runs away from Charlotte
County and comes back to Auburndale to his grandmother's house.
Now his grandmother's not there. The grandmother said, hey, we
(37:42):
don't feel safe with him around. So our deputies, who
found him up here as a missing person's reported in
Charlotte County, turned him over to DCF.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You are hearing Paul County sheer of Grady Judd and more.
Speaker 8 (37:56):
Two days later, on the fourteenth of February, the end
anniversary of him killing his dad a year ago, he's
reunited with his mother by DCF. Colin made the statement
that I don't want to go home. I'll use any
force necessary to avoid it, to include killing my mother.
(38:20):
So that's the second time he threatened to kill his mother.
So they didn't make him go home on the fourteenth,
but about two weeks later, in March twenty twenty four,
they reunite Colin with his mother again, everybody's calmed down.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Peter Hudham is correct.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
He warned everyone he was going to kill his mother,
very calmly and very coherently, which in my mind rules
out a mental illness.
Speaker 8 (38:44):
And then list say, September sixth, Colin has an argument
about home chores and he flees from his mother's house
again and comes up to his grandmother's house. Grandmother's not there.
Mom calm lets the event calm down, and she tells
(39:04):
her son, Hey, you need to come home, and she
asked him to come home and faces responsibility. Collins says,
I'm not coming back home. That was September seventh.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Robin Drake behavior analysts formally with the FBI weigh in, Yeah, what.
Speaker 7 (39:21):
We see here is so predominantly just not with his case,
but all the other case you mentioned. It's a lack
of control. Every time he has a lack of control
in his life, he's going from zero to murder. And
it's like he said, and everyone else has been saying,
it's so predictable, and it's this lack of ability to
solve problems in a healthy way, which has also been mentioned.
(39:44):
It's exactly what happened here is zero to one hundred
when he loses control and murder his his escape route.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Doctor Priya Banerjee joining a sports certified pathologist, Doctor Priya
how long would mom have lain in the floor, bleeding
out with her son towering over her before she died?
Speaker 9 (40:03):
Very quickly, So I just want to say, two wounds.
You don't fall on a knife and create two wounds
and you're going to injure again major blood vessels. So
I would say within seconds to a minute or two.
It's very short.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Susan Hendricks, what's next? You know, it's just horrific.
Speaker 6 (40:22):
The system failed the mother and her last post is eerie.
It's lyrics from Taylor Swift saying sometimes giving up is
the strong thing. No one was there to help her.
Of course he isn't getting out now, but it's too
late for the moment.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
We wait as just a sun falls. Goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!