May 24, 2023 • 28 mins
For many years the debate has raged, is the Shroud of Turin really the burial cloth of Christ or is it a hoax? Nancy Grace sits down with dear friend and author, Guy Powell, to discuss his new book "The Only Witness: A History of the Shroud of Turin." The book is historical fiction, a depiction of how the Shroud made its way to its current resting place in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. Powell gives a brief overview of the testing and research done on this treasured Christian relic to determine its authenticity and lets us inside his motivation behind writing the compelling historical fiction.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Guys, thank you for being with me. I know this
is a departure from our usual analysis of murder trials
and high stakes games lawyers play in court criminal investigations.
I want to talk to you about an investigation of
a different sort. I want to talk to you about
(00:35):
the truth of the Shroud of Teuran. And I'll tell
you why, because today a phenomenal book has hit the market.
I already got up this morning and got it on
Amazon in kindle form. It's called The Only Witness, and
I want to show you the picture of the front
(00:57):
of it. The Only Witness a History of the Shroud
of Turan, and it is written by a friend and colleague,
Gui Powell. I have known Gai for many many years
through our Sunday school class that he led for years,
(01:22):
and when I heard he was writing this book, I
was so happy because when I first heard learned about
the Shroud of Turan as a Christian, or try to
be a Christian, a seeker, I'm more of a seeker
of Christ. I was so thrilled. And it was many
(01:46):
many years ago that I learned about the Shroud of Tehran.
And then there were the debunkers, and I've got to
tell you, I almost wished I hadn't heard what they said,
because I wanted very much to believe that the Shroud
of Turin was real. Whether it is or isn't changes
nothing about the resurrection. Now apparently the debunkers have been debunked.
(02:10):
What is the truth with me? Is Guy Powell, author
of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turan. Guy,
I'm so happy to get to speak to you.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Thank you so much, Nancy, And I really like your
introduction because back in nineteen seventy eight is when I
really first learned about it. There was a I can't
remember it for the time, or a Life magazine article
that I said, Wow, what's that. I'd never heard of that,
and that then kind of got me interested in it.
(02:47):
And then when you talk about the debunkers, that was
nineteen eighty eight when a handful of scientists and laboratories
did some radiocarbon testing on it and they came out
at the end and said that the shroud is from
dates from twelve sixty to thirteen ninety. And then at
(03:09):
that moment, then you know, I heard that and I said,
oh my god, it's fake.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You know, wait just a minute, guy Powell, we don't
say omg on ng.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Ah. Okay, thank you. So so in anyway, in any
case they said the shroud is fake, it was. They
said they flogged it, they faked it.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
And oh wait, just talk right there. Yeah. Have you
ever seen those movies where there is like an evangelical
pastor and you can't see me, but I'm using air
quotes when I say pastor and they're healing people and
they turn out to be a big fraud. Or when
you hear about a pastor or a preacher that is
like cheated on his wife, and I say he is,
(03:57):
there are female pastors. In fact, our church is about
to get a female pastor. They cheat on the wife
and with all these ladies. I remember a case I
covered at Court TV. It was the case of Rabbi
Fred Neilander, and he was a renowned rabbi. I believe
(04:20):
he was saying, hey, sid could you look. I think
he was in Cherry Hill, anywhere, somewhere really rich where
all the rich people are, and this very very tony synagogue, cheating, cheating,
Cheery Hill. Okay, yeah, and I'm getting there. Wait a minute.
You know, you know how I go off in tangents sometimes.
(04:42):
So he killed his wife. Long story short, and I
remember listening to his son speaking. You know, when something
to do with our Judeo Christian heritage is debunk or
they take a chink in the armor, I just feel
(05:06):
like it's fodder for naysayers. And when I heard the
Shroud of Turin was a fake, I'm like, oh, that's
a black eye. That's another black eye for us. I mean,
so I was very I was disappointed when I heard that.
(05:28):
You know, justice when anything to do with our beliefs,
even when our government, for Pete's sake, when you find
out that there has been some sort of wrongdoing and
the highest arena within our government, it's a kick in
the teeth. Or when I hear about a cop, a
(05:49):
dirty cop coming from l E. Law enforcement, I take
it really personally. So this means a lot to me. Guy,
Now you're saying that when you heard about the shout
of tearing back in the seventies, Okay, pick it up
from there.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yes, exactly. So there was a group of scientists that
went over and their primary purpose was to determine what
made that image on there and the team was made
up of religious folks, so Protestants and Catholics. That had
a couple of Jews on there, and I had a
couple of atheists. And when they got done studying the
(06:30):
shroud of one hundred and twenty consecutive hours over five
days straight, all of them came back and they said,
this is not a painting. It has not died, it
has not stained. It is something that they have never
seen before, that it is not you know, probably or
most likely not created by the hands of man. That
(06:54):
was kind of their conclusion.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Now let me understand, so this is the group that
d bunked the d bunkers, Well, this is.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Actually no, this is actually before that. And one of
the tests that they wanted to run at that time
and they weren't allowed to was a radio carbon dating.
And the problem with radio carbon dating.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Like carbon fourteen is that what you're saying, carbon fourteen.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
That's exactly right, radio carbon dating using carbon fourteen. And
the problem with that is that it is a destructive test.
So you have to take a sample out of the shroud.
You have to cut a sample out of the shroud,
and it's like, you know, that's a if this is
truly the relic that is the Burial o'clock or Jesus Christ.
You don't want to touch it and you don't want
(07:39):
to cut anything out of it. And so it took
another ten years in nineteen eighty eight when samples were
actually cut under a lot of scrutiny, but also done
it cut incorrectly. Where they took those samples from was
not agreed was not the agreed on places. And so
(08:00):
they did the testing and as I mentioned before, the
results of that testing were that the date of the shroud,
according to that test, was twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
It's very difficult. From my scientific background. I deal with
DNA data, hard data every day. It's very hard for
me to reject carbon fourteen dating.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Exactly exactly. And so for probably twenty years, the research
on the shroud kind of fell apart, and you know,
everything went dark. There wasn't really much done. There was
a lot of you know, a lot of depression about
the you know, hey, what are we doing now? It's
(08:47):
fake And yet we don't know how that image was made,
This wonderful image of this man that clearly suffered was crucified.
And then this cloth somehow picked up an image of that.
And then it was only recently and I don't remember
exactly the date now that the raw data that went
into the carbon fourteen testing that the raw data was
(09:11):
made public and it was it was made public by
the British Museum only at the at the urging and
the constant urging by a handful of people and in
particular one Tristane Costabianca, and he got the data and
found out that they had they had flogged it. They
(09:32):
had flogged the data that they used, and there's some
statistical tests that are done and without getting into the
details of that, they purpet well, it is believed that
they purposefully flogged the data using their word and they
did not follow the statistical rigor that would need to
be done on the results that they got, and yet
(09:55):
they published it anyway. And it's now as that now
has because I mean coming to light and you know
here over the last few years that now there's d bunker,
these three de bunkers, these labs have now been debunked.
And that's one test that.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
They did as well, Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So the d bunkers come in, they c fourteen, carbon fourteen,
the shroud of Turin, and they say that the shroud
was created. I believe you said with the eighteen hunt.
When did you say?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Twelve sixty, twelve sixty two, thirteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, okay, And it's very very difficult for me to reject. Well,
I cannot reject the car A fourteen test because I
know it to be true. You are now telling me, guy,
that they data used in the carbon fourteen test was
(11:14):
intentionally skewed to prove falsely the shoud of Turin was
a fake.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yes, exactly. So one of the things when you get
so what happens is that the carbon fourteen test and
the results from their test on the samples and that's
a critical word, on the samples that they took, are
most likely correct that the date of those samples actually
(11:45):
range from somewhere between twelve twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.
The problem is twofold. The first one is where did
they take those samples from on the shroud? Number one. Normally,
what you would do is, if you really really wanted
to do a pure scientific test, you would take a
sample from one corner from the middle, from the edge,
(12:07):
another corner, you would take them all around the whole claw.
You would not take them from exactly the same place.
The second thing is because they didn't do that, and
that was the agreed on approach, and then all of
a sudden they decided not to do that. They took
it from one spot. Well, the spot that they took
it from had potentially two things wrong with it. First
(12:32):
of all, when the shroud was displayed over the last
two millennia, that is where the shroud was held by
the bishops and the senior church hierarchy when they actually
wanted to display it to the public, So the grime
on your hands, the oil on your hands would contaminate
and probably dominated that spot that it took.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
He just said, something I can connect to contaminate, like
contaminated DNA. So what I think you're saying, and of
course I'm a jd I'm no scientist, is that. Of
course it is not the carbon fourteen method that is
in question, because it simply is not, just like evolution
(13:18):
is not in question. That's the way it happened. Now,
how you want to look at evolution through the filter
of Adam and eve that's the whole other can of worms.
But carbon fourteen testing is not the problem here. The problem,
as I understand you saying, is that the linin itself
(13:43):
is very very polluted, contaminated by for instance, where it
was kept, how it was handled over all those years.
Is that what you're saying? So the carbon fourteen testing
and pristine laboratory conditions would have been fine, but that
(14:04):
the object, the shroud itself was polluted.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
That is, uh, there's and there's two or three areas,
but yes, that's the first one.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Is there aren't traces of fungus and calcium carbonate found.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
That's a different thing. But yes, there were traces of
calcium carbonate and uh, and other other dust that is
only found in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
And isn't it true that certain areas of the shroud
were darned in other words, repaired later on?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
And yes, absolutely, And that's been the second dimension of
why potentially the the the carbon dating was wrong in
that that area where the shroud is held hundreds and
maybe thousands of times. Is that that area where they
took that sample not only may have been contaminated by
(15:00):
may have been repaired with modern material.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Wow, you know, guy, I remember when I heard I
read that the Shroud of Turin was a fake. I
remember that moment like I remember where I was exactly
when I found out Elvis Presley was killed, or that
you know that the war in Ukraine had started, just
(15:27):
the OJ Verdict or just O J. Simpson, very so
many moments in time you never forget. And I remember
immediately running to David, to whom I'm now married, and saying,
the Shroud of Turin is a fake. And I was upset,
(15:50):
although I have absolutely no connection to the Shroud of
Turin at all, and in my mind, whether it's real
or not real has no bearing on the truth of
Christ's teachings.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Absolutely, I'm going to ask you, s absolutely, guy, what
led you to write The Only Witness, a History of
the Shroud of Turan.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Well, it's kind of funny. So we had the seventy
eight research, we had the nineteen eighty eight debunking, and
then about I don't know, fifteen twenty years later, my
brother sent me a book on the Shroud of Turin
and it was called The Blood and the Shroud, The
Blood and the Shroud by Ian Wilson, and I remember
reading it and it's a history book and it's basically,
(16:42):
on thirteen fifty six this happened, and on thirteen fifty
seven this happened, and on thirteen fifty eight this happened.
And I got there it sounds terrible, No way that exactly,
no way that anybody It was also.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
About thirteen fifty eight.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Exactly. So then I said, you know what would be interesting,
and I remember it very distinctly, it is somebody ought
to write there as a historical fiction. And that's exactly
what I did. And that's what the impetus for me was.
I took all of those facts, you know, as they
were laid out by Ian Wilson many others of course,
(17:19):
and I said, you know, so, how could we tell
a story about something that is this significant and tell
a story that other people would read and be able
to then consume it and read it and learn about
the shroud and go, wow, look at that. This is
very interesting? Is they? You know? And they can ask
the question themselves as to whether the shroud is authentic
(17:40):
or not. And but and that's that was really the
genesis of me writing that book. And I remember was
that weekend when I read that, I said, I'm going
to write the first chapter and I wrote the first chapter,
and then it was twenty years before I actually started
to really write it when I alway wanted to write it.
(18:01):
And then it was COVID and I remember sitting here
and I said, I need to finish that book, and
I picked up what I had written and I started writing.
And that's them where the book came from.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Crime Stories with me Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Guys, for those of you just joining us, I'm talking
to a friend and colleague and also a Amazon number
one bestseller of another book completely different topic has written
The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin.
(18:51):
Guy Powell is with me. And you know, guys, there
are some people in the world that you take everything
they say with a box of sault. As I like
to say, not a grain of salt, but a box
of salt. Guy Powell is someone you would seek out
(19:15):
for an opinion or advice or the true facts. And
hearing you speak about your book, I mean, I got
it this morning. Have you voiced it yet? Have you
got an audio yet? In the process of trying to
do that, I need it in an audio so when
I go jog, haha, or walk, I can listen to it,
(19:38):
but yes, I got it on Kendle this morning. So
it struck you after reading one kind of a historical
view of the shroud to write, you know, first of all,
what is a burial shroud? A lot of people are
not familiar with a burial shroud.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Yeah, exactly. So a shroud is a burial cloth. So
it's a cloth that would be wrapped around somebody that
had just died, and then you would be certainly at
the time of Christ, then you would wrap the body
in the in this piece of cloth, and then you
would bury that person in the tomb. And there's a
(20:23):
couple of different pieces that might take place. The one
is the cloth, a single piece of cloth that wraps
from the back of the feet all the way up
to the back of the head, over the face, and
then down to the front of the feet, and that's
what the the the shroud of Turin is. And then
possibly and very probably, then there was another strip, a
(20:43):
strip of linen that is wrapped around the body to
hold that piece of cloth on the body, you know,
just to make sure that it just stays there and
stays together. And so there's there's a couple of different
met mentions of that in the in the Book and
John of course, these linens and the strips of linins,
and so that's where those two things come from. And
(21:06):
this is then believed to be the burial cloth of
Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
In other words, this cloth, according to many believers, was
there in the tomb as silent witness to the resurrection.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Exactly it is, and that's thing where the title came from.
It is the only witness. So it was there during
that moment of resurrection. So that's then believed to be
what caused that image to be imprinted onto that cloth.
And then the book, of course, is the only witness.
(21:46):
It's a history. It's not the history. Nobody knows what
the history is. But it's a history, a plausible history
of the shroud of Turin as it progressed them from
that day in Gold and then in the tomb and
then all the way up to where it is today
in Turin, Italy.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
So was it thrown away and recovered? Was it revered
as one of the most important relics in human existence?
Guy takes facts and hypotheses to write a history of
(22:29):
this cloth, this burial cloth of Christ, as it travels
from Golgotha, where Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, through the
Roman Empire, through Byzantium, through Europe, and how this cloth
(22:52):
protected for centuries lands in Turin, surviving fire, war, plague, floods,
to become to many the single most valuable Christian relic
(23:14):
or not. You know, it strikes me, guy, as we're talking,
how it is a miracle that, for instance, the Bible
or the Torah's our Old Testament even survived, but particularly
(23:40):
the New Testament, because after Christ's crucifixion, Christians were of
course persecuted, and it was more important to them to
keep the faith. They would leave their homes, go living
cave rather than denounce what they believe to be the truth.
(24:05):
And it strikes me now, guy, how blessed we are
to be able to even talk, be able to even
talk about the Shrid of Churin, or the Bible or
the Torah. How they survived over all the years and
(24:26):
were not destroyed. To me, that is the miracle in itself.
But you know, guy, there are countries all around the
world where Christians and others are persecuted, jailed, killed even
now because of their beliefs. And you and I can
(24:47):
just take to the airwaves and talk about is the
shrid of Churan real or is it a fake? It's
how blessed are we?
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yes? You are so right. When I think about those Christians,
the Apostles, and then the early converts and and then
the Romans. Uh, you know, destroying the Temple in early
the first century and then persecuting the Christians for another
couple of hundred years. How hard was it for them
(25:18):
to be a Christian? How hard was it? And uh?
And nowadays to your point, here we are talking about,
you know, Christianity, talking about the Bible, talking about this
miraculous potentially miraculous relictis out of turin. We are truly
truly blessed.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, guys, just thinking about what I said at the
beginning about seeking the teachings of Christ. Whenever I am
a doubt like Thomas, and I'd like to remind everyone
when Thomas doubted, Christ did not reprimand him or kick
(26:01):
him out. He wooed him, he loved him. Anyway, Whenever
I have feelings of doubt, I think about those early
Christians who would rather die than renounce their faith or
the disciples. Do you remember Peter would not even agree
(26:24):
to be crucified. He thought it was too similar to
the way Christ was killed, so he insisted he'd be
crucified upside down. They would rather die than renounce. I
hope and pray that you are correct that the Shroud
of Turin israel I cannot reject science. But I have faith.
(26:54):
I can't wait to finish. It just got started this morning,
Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin. And how
long did it take you to write the book? Guy?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Well, it was from start to finish. When I really
got into it, it was three years.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Three years, wow, guys. And where can everyone find it?
The only Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin.
Where can it be found?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Well, definitely on Amazon. So today is the launch the
first availability of the book. I'm kindle it'll be available
shortly in print form on Amazon. It's available, and it'll
be available through any bookstore, and certainly hope to have
it available in different Christian bookstores. And then lastly, if
(27:49):
you want to, you can also get it from my site,
Guy Powell dot com and there you can sign up
for the book, also purchase the book and learn even
more about the out of Turn This.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Is the labor of love and I really look forward
to reading it. Guy Powell, thank you for being with
us today.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Nancy, thank you so much. I very much appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Bye. Friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Guys, thank you for being with me. I know this
is a departure from our usual analysis of murder trials
and high stakes games lawyers play in court criminal investigations.
I want to talk to you about an investigation of
a different sort. I want to talk to you about
(00:35):
the truth of the Shroud of Teuran. And I'll tell
you why, because today a phenomenal book has hit the market.
I already got up this morning and got it on
Amazon in kindle form. It's called The Only Witness, and
I want to show you the picture of the front
(00:57):
of it. The Only Witness a History of the Shroud
of Turan, and it is written by a friend and colleague,
Gui Powell. I have known Gai for many many years
through our Sunday school class that he led for years,
(01:22):
and when I heard he was writing this book, I
was so happy because when I first heard learned about
the Shroud of Turan as a Christian, or try to
be a Christian, a seeker, I'm more of a seeker
of Christ. I was so thrilled. And it was many
(01:46):
many years ago that I learned about the Shroud of Tehran.
And then there were the debunkers, and I've got to
tell you, I almost wished I hadn't heard what they said,
because I wanted very much to believe that the Shroud
of Turin was real. Whether it is or isn't changes
nothing about the resurrection. Now apparently the debunkers have been debunked.
(02:10):
What is the truth with me? Is Guy Powell, author
of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turan. Guy,
I'm so happy to get to speak to you.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Thank you so much, Nancy, And I really like your
introduction because back in nineteen seventy eight is when I
really first learned about it. There was a I can't
remember it for the time, or a Life magazine article
that I said, Wow, what's that. I'd never heard of that,
and that then kind of got me interested in it.
(02:47):
And then when you talk about the debunkers, that was
nineteen eighty eight when a handful of scientists and laboratories
did some radiocarbon testing on it and they came out
at the end and said that the shroud is from
dates from twelve sixty to thirteen ninety. And then at
(03:09):
that moment, then you know, I heard that and I said,
oh my god, it's fake.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You know, wait just a minute, guy Powell, we don't
say omg on ng.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Ah. Okay, thank you. So so in anyway, in any
case they said the shroud is fake, it was. They
said they flogged it, they faked it.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
And oh wait, just talk right there. Yeah. Have you
ever seen those movies where there is like an evangelical
pastor and you can't see me, but I'm using air
quotes when I say pastor and they're healing people and
they turn out to be a big fraud. Or when
you hear about a pastor or a preacher that is
like cheated on his wife, and I say he is,
(03:57):
there are female pastors. In fact, our church is about
to get a female pastor. They cheat on the wife
and with all these ladies. I remember a case I
covered at Court TV. It was the case of Rabbi
Fred Neilander, and he was a renowned rabbi. I believe
(04:20):
he was saying, hey, sid could you look. I think
he was in Cherry Hill, anywhere, somewhere really rich where
all the rich people are, and this very very tony synagogue, cheating, cheating,
Cheery Hill. Okay, yeah, and I'm getting there. Wait a minute.
You know, you know how I go off in tangents sometimes.
(04:42):
So he killed his wife. Long story short, and I
remember listening to his son speaking. You know, when something
to do with our Judeo Christian heritage is debunk or
they take a chink in the armor, I just feel
(05:06):
like it's fodder for naysayers. And when I heard the
Shroud of Turin was a fake, I'm like, oh, that's
a black eye. That's another black eye for us. I mean,
so I was very I was disappointed when I heard that.
(05:28):
You know, justice when anything to do with our beliefs,
even when our government, for Pete's sake, when you find
out that there has been some sort of wrongdoing and
the highest arena within our government, it's a kick in
the teeth. Or when I hear about a cop, a
(05:49):
dirty cop coming from l E. Law enforcement, I take
it really personally. So this means a lot to me. Guy,
Now you're saying that when you heard about the shout
of tearing back in the seventies, Okay, pick it up
from there.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yes, exactly. So there was a group of scientists that
went over and their primary purpose was to determine what
made that image on there and the team was made
up of religious folks, so Protestants and Catholics. That had
a couple of Jews on there, and I had a
couple of atheists. And when they got done studying the
(06:30):
shroud of one hundred and twenty consecutive hours over five
days straight, all of them came back and they said,
this is not a painting. It has not died, it
has not stained. It is something that they have never
seen before, that it is not you know, probably or
most likely not created by the hands of man. That
(06:54):
was kind of their conclusion.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Now let me understand, so this is the group that
d bunked the d bunkers, Well, this is.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Actually no, this is actually before that. And one of
the tests that they wanted to run at that time
and they weren't allowed to was a radio carbon dating.
And the problem with radio carbon dating.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Like carbon fourteen is that what you're saying, carbon fourteen.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
That's exactly right, radio carbon dating using carbon fourteen. And
the problem with that is that it is a destructive test.
So you have to take a sample out of the shroud.
You have to cut a sample out of the shroud,
and it's like, you know, that's a if this is
truly the relic that is the Burial o'clock or Jesus Christ.
You don't want to touch it and you don't want
(07:39):
to cut anything out of it. And so it took
another ten years in nineteen eighty eight when samples were
actually cut under a lot of scrutiny, but also done
it cut incorrectly. Where they took those samples from was
not agreed was not the agreed on places. And so
(08:00):
they did the testing and as I mentioned before, the
results of that testing were that the date of the shroud,
according to that test, was twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
It's very difficult. From my scientific background. I deal with
DNA data, hard data every day. It's very hard for
me to reject carbon fourteen dating.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Exactly exactly. And so for probably twenty years, the research
on the shroud kind of fell apart, and you know,
everything went dark. There wasn't really much done. There was
a lot of you know, a lot of depression about
the you know, hey, what are we doing now? It's
(08:47):
fake And yet we don't know how that image was made,
This wonderful image of this man that clearly suffered was crucified.
And then this cloth somehow picked up an image of that.
And then it was only recently and I don't remember
exactly the date now that the raw data that went
into the carbon fourteen testing that the raw data was
(09:11):
made public and it was it was made public by
the British Museum only at the at the urging and
the constant urging by a handful of people and in
particular one Tristane Costabianca, and he got the data and
found out that they had they had flogged it. They
(09:32):
had flogged the data that they used, and there's some
statistical tests that are done and without getting into the
details of that, they purpet well, it is believed that
they purposefully flogged the data using their word and they
did not follow the statistical rigor that would need to
be done on the results that they got, and yet
(09:55):
they published it anyway. And it's now as that now
has because I mean coming to light and you know
here over the last few years that now there's d bunker,
these three de bunkers, these labs have now been debunked.
And that's one test that.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
They did as well, Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So the d bunkers come in, they c fourteen, carbon fourteen,
the shroud of Turin, and they say that the shroud
was created. I believe you said with the eighteen hunt.
When did you say?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Twelve sixty, twelve sixty two, thirteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, okay, And it's very very difficult for me to reject. Well,
I cannot reject the car A fourteen test because I
know it to be true. You are now telling me, guy,
that they data used in the carbon fourteen test was
(11:14):
intentionally skewed to prove falsely the shoud of Turin was
a fake.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yes, exactly. So one of the things when you get
so what happens is that the carbon fourteen test and
the results from their test on the samples and that's
a critical word, on the samples that they took, are
most likely correct that the date of those samples actually
(11:45):
range from somewhere between twelve twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.
The problem is twofold. The first one is where did
they take those samples from on the shroud? Number one. Normally,
what you would do is, if you really really wanted
to do a pure scientific test, you would take a
sample from one corner from the middle, from the edge,
(12:07):
another corner, you would take them all around the whole claw.
You would not take them from exactly the same place.
The second thing is because they didn't do that, and
that was the agreed on approach, and then all of
a sudden they decided not to do that. They took
it from one spot. Well, the spot that they took
it from had potentially two things wrong with it. First
(12:32):
of all, when the shroud was displayed over the last
two millennia, that is where the shroud was held by
the bishops and the senior church hierarchy when they actually
wanted to display it to the public, So the grime
on your hands, the oil on your hands would contaminate
and probably dominated that spot that it took.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
He just said, something I can connect to contaminate, like
contaminated DNA. So what I think you're saying, and of
course I'm a jd I'm no scientist, is that. Of
course it is not the carbon fourteen method that is
in question, because it simply is not, just like evolution
(13:18):
is not in question. That's the way it happened. Now,
how you want to look at evolution through the filter
of Adam and eve that's the whole other can of worms.
But carbon fourteen testing is not the problem here. The problem,
as I understand you saying, is that the linin itself
(13:43):
is very very polluted, contaminated by for instance, where it
was kept, how it was handled over all those years.
Is that what you're saying? So the carbon fourteen testing
and pristine laboratory conditions would have been fine, but that
(14:04):
the object, the shroud itself was polluted.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
That is, uh, there's and there's two or three areas,
but yes, that's the first one.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Is there aren't traces of fungus and calcium carbonate found.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
That's a different thing. But yes, there were traces of
calcium carbonate and uh, and other other dust that is
only found in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
And isn't it true that certain areas of the shroud
were darned in other words, repaired later on?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
And yes, absolutely, And that's been the second dimension of
why potentially the the the carbon dating was wrong in
that that area where the shroud is held hundreds and
maybe thousands of times. Is that that area where they
took that sample not only may have been contaminated by
(15:00):
may have been repaired with modern material.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Wow, you know, guy, I remember when I heard I
read that the Shroud of Turin was a fake. I
remember that moment like I remember where I was exactly
when I found out Elvis Presley was killed, or that
you know that the war in Ukraine had started, just
(15:27):
the OJ Verdict or just O J. Simpson, very so
many moments in time you never forget. And I remember
immediately running to David, to whom I'm now married, and saying,
the Shroud of Turin is a fake. And I was upset,
(15:50):
although I have absolutely no connection to the Shroud of
Turin at all, and in my mind, whether it's real
or not real has no bearing on the truth of
Christ's teachings.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Absolutely, I'm going to ask you, s absolutely, guy, what
led you to write The Only Witness, a History of
the Shroud of Turan.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Well, it's kind of funny. So we had the seventy
eight research, we had the nineteen eighty eight debunking, and
then about I don't know, fifteen twenty years later, my
brother sent me a book on the Shroud of Turin
and it was called The Blood and the Shroud, The
Blood and the Shroud by Ian Wilson, and I remember
reading it and it's a history book and it's basically,
(16:42):
on thirteen fifty six this happened, and on thirteen fifty
seven this happened, and on thirteen fifty eight this happened.
And I got there it sounds terrible, No way that exactly,
no way that anybody It was also.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
About thirteen fifty eight.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Exactly. So then I said, you know what would be interesting,
and I remember it very distinctly, it is somebody ought
to write there as a historical fiction. And that's exactly
what I did. And that's what the impetus for me was.
I took all of those facts, you know, as they
were laid out by Ian Wilson many others of course,
(17:19):
and I said, you know, so, how could we tell
a story about something that is this significant and tell
a story that other people would read and be able
to then consume it and read it and learn about
the shroud and go, wow, look at that. This is
very interesting? Is they? You know? And they can ask
the question themselves as to whether the shroud is authentic
(17:40):
or not. And but and that's that was really the
genesis of me writing that book. And I remember was
that weekend when I read that, I said, I'm going
to write the first chapter and I wrote the first chapter,
and then it was twenty years before I actually started
to really write it when I alway wanted to write it.
(18:01):
And then it was COVID and I remember sitting here
and I said, I need to finish that book, and
I picked up what I had written and I started writing.
And that's them where the book came from.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Crime Stories with me Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Guys, for those of you just joining us, I'm talking
to a friend and colleague and also a Amazon number
one bestseller of another book completely different topic has written
The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin.
(18:51):
Guy Powell is with me. And you know, guys, there
are some people in the world that you take everything
they say with a box of sault. As I like
to say, not a grain of salt, but a box
of salt. Guy Powell is someone you would seek out
(19:15):
for an opinion or advice or the true facts. And
hearing you speak about your book, I mean, I got
it this morning. Have you voiced it yet? Have you
got an audio yet? In the process of trying to
do that, I need it in an audio so when
I go jog, haha, or walk, I can listen to it,
(19:38):
but yes, I got it on Kendle this morning. So
it struck you after reading one kind of a historical
view of the shroud to write, you know, first of all,
what is a burial shroud? A lot of people are
not familiar with a burial shroud.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Yeah, exactly. So a shroud is a burial cloth. So
it's a cloth that would be wrapped around somebody that
had just died, and then you would be certainly at
the time of Christ, then you would wrap the body
in the in this piece of cloth, and then you
would bury that person in the tomb. And there's a
(20:23):
couple of different pieces that might take place. The one
is the cloth, a single piece of cloth that wraps
from the back of the feet all the way up
to the back of the head, over the face, and
then down to the front of the feet, and that's
what the the the shroud of Turin is. And then
possibly and very probably, then there was another strip, a
(20:43):
strip of linen that is wrapped around the body to
hold that piece of cloth on the body, you know,
just to make sure that it just stays there and
stays together. And so there's there's a couple of different
met mentions of that in the in the Book and
John of course, these linens and the strips of linins,
and so that's where those two things come from. And
(21:06):
this is then believed to be the burial cloth of
Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
In other words, this cloth, according to many believers, was
there in the tomb as silent witness to the resurrection.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Exactly it is, and that's thing where the title came from.
It is the only witness. So it was there during
that moment of resurrection. So that's then believed to be
what caused that image to be imprinted onto that cloth.
And then the book, of course, is the only witness.
(21:46):
It's a history. It's not the history. Nobody knows what
the history is. But it's a history, a plausible history
of the shroud of Turin as it progressed them from
that day in Gold and then in the tomb and
then all the way up to where it is today
in Turin, Italy.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
So was it thrown away and recovered? Was it revered
as one of the most important relics in human existence?
Guy takes facts and hypotheses to write a history of
(22:29):
this cloth, this burial cloth of Christ, as it travels
from Golgotha, where Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, through the
Roman Empire, through Byzantium, through Europe, and how this cloth
(22:52):
protected for centuries lands in Turin, surviving fire, war, plague, floods,
to become to many the single most valuable Christian relic
(23:14):
or not. You know, it strikes me, guy, as we're talking,
how it is a miracle that, for instance, the Bible
or the Torah's our Old Testament even survived, but particularly
(23:40):
the New Testament, because after Christ's crucifixion, Christians were of
course persecuted, and it was more important to them to
keep the faith. They would leave their homes, go living
cave rather than denounce what they believe to be the truth.
(24:05):
And it strikes me now, guy, how blessed we are
to be able to even talk, be able to even
talk about the Shrid of Churin, or the Bible or
the Torah. How they survived over all the years and
(24:26):
were not destroyed. To me, that is the miracle in itself.
But you know, guy, there are countries all around the
world where Christians and others are persecuted, jailed, killed even
now because of their beliefs. And you and I can
(24:47):
just take to the airwaves and talk about is the
shrid of Churan real or is it a fake? It's
how blessed are we?
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yes? You are so right. When I think about those Christians,
the Apostles, and then the early converts and and then
the Romans. Uh, you know, destroying the Temple in early
the first century and then persecuting the Christians for another
couple of hundred years. How hard was it for them
(25:18):
to be a Christian? How hard was it? And uh?
And nowadays to your point, here we are talking about,
you know, Christianity, talking about the Bible, talking about this
miraculous potentially miraculous relictis out of turin. We are truly
truly blessed.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, guys, just thinking about what I said at the
beginning about seeking the teachings of Christ. Whenever I am
a doubt like Thomas, and I'd like to remind everyone
when Thomas doubted, Christ did not reprimand him or kick
(26:01):
him out. He wooed him, he loved him. Anyway, Whenever
I have feelings of doubt, I think about those early
Christians who would rather die than renounce their faith or
the disciples. Do you remember Peter would not even agree
(26:24):
to be crucified. He thought it was too similar to
the way Christ was killed, so he insisted he'd be
crucified upside down. They would rather die than renounce. I
hope and pray that you are correct that the Shroud
of Turin israel I cannot reject science. But I have faith.
(26:54):
I can't wait to finish. It just got started this morning,
Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin. And how
long did it take you to write the book? Guy?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Well, it was from start to finish. When I really
got into it, it was three years.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Three years, wow, guys. And where can everyone find it?
The only Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin.
Where can it be found?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Well, definitely on Amazon. So today is the launch the
first availability of the book. I'm kindle it'll be available
shortly in print form on Amazon. It's available, and it'll
be available through any bookstore, and certainly hope to have
it available in different Christian bookstores. And then lastly, if
(27:49):
you want to, you can also get it from my site,
Guy Powell dot com and there you can sign up
for the book, also purchase the book and learn even
more about the out of Turn This.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Is the labor of love and I really look forward
to reading it. Guy Powell, thank you for being with
us today.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Nancy, thank you so much. I very much appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Bye. Friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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