November 25, 2024 • 40 mins
On a whim, parents Vernal Kunz and Jessica Mitchell decide to take their 2-year-old son, DeOrr, camping near Leadore, Idaho.
Mitchell invites her grandfather, Robert Walton, and Walton's friend, Isaac Reinwand, to join them. The group arrives at the Timber Creek Campground after dark and sleeps in the next morning. Kunz, Mitchell, and DeOrr go into town for gas and groceries, returning to camp around 1 p.m.
By that time, DeOrr should be settling in for a nap, but his parents decide to explore the campground. Reinwand is off fishing upstream, so Walton agrees to watch DeOrr while Mitchell and Kunz take a walk downstream. A few minutes later,
Kunz returns to camp to show DeOrr a school of minnows. However, the toddler is nowhere to be found. Walton says DeOrr started following his parents on their walk, and he assumed they had him. After searching for several minutes, Mitchell and Kunz call 911.
Investigators quickly rule out kidnapping, as the campers would have seen a car leaving the area, and focus on searching the Timber Creek Campground. Both Lemhi and Bonneville County sheriffs, along with hundreds of volunteers, search for days.
Dive teams spend hours combing the creek near the campsite and Stone Reservoir, a shallow body of water feeding the creek. Foot searchers spread out over a three-mile radius, checking even animal dens, but find no sign of DeOrr.
Just over a year into the investigation, Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Kunz are named suspects in their son's disappearance and presumed death
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- David Marshburn - Kunz Family Private Investigator, Director of Investigations for 'Search for Me Foundation', Former Bounty Hunter
- Pendrey Trammell - Civil Litigator, Former Prosecutor in Oregon and Idaho; Instagram: @pendrey28
- Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski – Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides;” FB: forensicsandmediapsychologist/TikTok: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski
- Dr. Jan Gorniak – Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV), Board Certified Forensic Pathologist
- Nate Eaton - News Director, EastIdahoNews.com, Facebook: "Nate Eaton - Reporter", Instagram: @n.eaton
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Beautiful boy, age two, vanishes from a family camping trip tonight.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Where is door? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Let's the address of your emergency.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
I'm actually camping and lead work goes outside of lead work.
Uh huh my two year old son. We can't find them?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
How long has he been missing?
Speaker 4 (00:35):
About for an hour?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Are you by water? Yes?
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Do you know which campground you're in? It's Stone Reservoir,
Timber Creek, Stone Reservoir, Yeah, for Timber Creek.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Hold on, we needs such and rescue.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You are hearing the nine to one one call from
the camping area for a two year old little top boy. Absolutely,
beautiful baby seemingly vanishes into thin air. Let's listen to
more of that nine to one one call.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
What do we learn, Jessica? Jessica? Yeah, what's your son's name?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
What is he wearing?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
He was wearing cowboy boot a blue like padma pants
as a panel jacket, and he's got show you blorn.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Here is your husband calling too?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Like all down where we were counting at and we
can't find her?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Mettle Okay, we need you to stay within cell service.
We've had people going on on the.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Way joining me an all star panel to make sense
of what we know right now for us straight out
to Nate eighton, joining US news director East Idaho News
dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Nate, listen to this.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Vernal Coons and girlfriend Jessica Mitchell lived together in Idaho
Falls with their two year old son Dior. On a whim,
Konts and Mitchell decide to take door camping outside Leodor.
Mitchell invites along her grandfather, Robert Walton, and a friend
of Walton's. The group arrives to Timber Creek campground after
dark and sleeps in the next morning. Finishing breakfast around
eleven am, Coots, Mitchell and Dior go into town for
(02:12):
gas and a few groceries, returning to camp about two
hours later.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And they leave door with grandpa, who's watching the child.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Listen to our friends East Idaho News.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Grandpa's watching the child, he tells me. He looks away momentarily.
When he looks back, he's gone, and he's assumed he's
gone over the bank right where Grandpa's sitting. He's within
twenty to thirty yards of the only roadway into the campground,
and absolutely no one was seen at that lower campground
coming or going.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
When children are kidnapped, nobody ever sees anyone coming or going.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
What happened to Dior. In addition to.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Nate Eon joining us from East Idaho News Dot Coffee
shot to fame during the whole Mom Laurie Valley case.
In addition to him is a very well known private investigator,
David Mashburn, director of investigations at Search for Me Foundation
(03:14):
and a former bounty hunter. I can tell you this,
he's been around the block once or twice. Nati, straight
out to you. Tell me about the terrain. Where do
your went missing?
Speaker 7 (03:26):
Oh, Nancy, this is a very remote area. You have
to take a four wheel drive or an ATV to
get back there. When we went out there, you know,
it would have ruined our car if it was a
small car. It's down a very long, dusty road. There's
no cell phone service. There is a creek that runs
through that campground. There's a big hill near the campground.
There's a reservoir on the other side of the hill.
(03:47):
It is extremely remote. It would be very hard for
a little boy the age of Dior to get anywhere
really in cowboy boots that were bigger than his feet.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Door just two years old at the time he goes missing.
In addition to investigative reporter and news director Nate Eaton,
joining us now special guests David Marshburne, former bounty hunter
work for the family. He's a private investigator and director
(04:18):
at Search for Me Foundation.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
David, thank you for being with us. Dave got a question.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I want to follow up on the terrain that Nate
Eaton was just describing, and before we go any further
about what Grandpa did or didn't do wrong. I've had
a lot of cases where a child is being watched
and in the twinkling of an eye, the child is gone.
But I want to talk about this terrain because the
(04:46):
way they're telling it, David and I believe Grandpa he's
watching the child, looks away momentarily, and he turns around.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I don't know how long that moment was.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It could have been one minute, it could have been
thirty seconds, it could have been thirty minutes. He looks
back and Doyor is gone. Now right where Grandpa's sitting.
And this is according to the share of Lynn Barrlmann.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
We just heard talking he's just.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Twenty to thirty yards from the only roadway into the campground.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Is that right, David Marshburn.
Speaker 8 (05:18):
Yeah, the terrain is very rough and you have a
lot of sage brush, and that's what makes it difficult
to move around out there, except for certain little areas
that are grassy and you know, just dirt, plain dirt.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Question, Dave Marshburn, you brought up something really interesting just
imagining this little this little taut in that sage brush.
You mentioned sagebrush specifically, why would that make it difficult
to move around in impede the search?
Speaker 8 (05:47):
Well, sagebrush is sort of like a briary book bush
that has a lot of hard limbs on it. I
mean it just slight walking through a compact of bush.
It's just it's very difficult to maneuver around because they
all intertwine with one another. You can walk between them somewhat.
(06:11):
As an adult, you can stand above it and get
around it, but as a two and a half year old,
it would be hard to maneuver through it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm just thinking through what you're saying, and you would know.
Speaker 8 (06:23):
As an adult just make sure it like this going
through a cornfield. Basically, if you're a two and a
half year old going through sagebrush. It's like an adult
going through a cornfield.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Now, now I can understand what you're saying, David Marshburn.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
It would be like me going through a corn maze.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Got him that he wouldn't be able to see anything.
And from where the grandpa was sitting, Dave Marshburn, how
far away was the sage brush?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Was it right there?
Speaker 8 (06:55):
It was within fifteen twenty feet of them.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Okay, guys, listen to this.
Speaker 9 (07:03):
By that time, it was almost two and he usually
takes his nap. We were just yeah, we said we're
going to go a little explore and he was going
to be good with grandpa.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
By the campfire.
Speaker 8 (07:13):
We were at more than probably.
Speaker 9 (07:15):
Fifty fifty yards away in ten minutes. I've actually seen
there were some things down by a little minnos that
I thought he would just love. So when I come
back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa,
whereas you know, where's little Dior?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
He immediately shocked. This is he came up to.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You, Dad and girlfriends speaking to East Idaho News.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, let's analyze that.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
You know, Nate Eaton sadly Nate joining us from East Ida,
who news Sadly, when a child goes missing, you always
look at the family, and statistically, very often you're looking
in the right direction, but almost.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
As many times it's not the family.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So I'm looking at them talking. I want to analyze
what they're saying, and that fits hand in glove with
what the grandpa was saying.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
What do you make of what he said.
Speaker 7 (08:10):
Well, he is insistent that they went to look at
the fish. They went to look at the minnows, and
when they got back, they thought that Dior was his grandpa.
Grandpa thought that Dior was with his parents, and that
when they came back, they said, where's door He's gone. Well,
they start to search around the campsite. They can't find him.
They search fifteen to twenty minutes. That he gets in
(08:30):
his truck. He goes to search further. That's when they
went down the way to call nine one one because
there was no cell phone reception.
Speaker 10 (08:36):
Nancy.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
When they came into talk with me, they brought Dior's
one of his little monkey toys. They brought his blanket.
They seemed very distraught, they seemed upset. They wanted to
know where their son was.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So Nate Eaton, you're analyzing, as am I every word
because every word counts.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Take a listen to the County sheer from our friends
at East Idaho.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
They supposedly thought they were turning their child over to
their grandfather, the child's great grandfather. They went down to
the creek, which is right next to the campground, and
within ten to fifteen minutes they go up to find
their child to show them some fish in the stream,
and he's nowhere to be found. Grandfather assumes he's gone
(09:23):
down to them because he was within their line of
sight and wasn't too far from the campground. They started
their initial search and eventually called nine one one when
they realized they couldn't find the child.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
You know, Dave Marshburne again, you've been working on the case.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I want to make sure.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
That what we're hearing jives with the topography, with the saying,
does it make sense what grandpa says, let's start with him.
Speaker 8 (09:55):
I do not agree with that.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Okay, what about the topography does not fit.
Speaker 8 (09:59):
That scenari because it's not an edge you can just
fall off of if you walk to the edge of
the right. What the decline is to the creek, you
would hit something, that something would stop you before you
entered the creek.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Is there a way, you know?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I had a judge who was the oldest judge in
the Fulton County Courthouse and the wisest, I might add,
And one thing he told every.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Jury, and I know it by heart.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
It is your duty, members of the jury, to make
all witnesses speak the truth and impune perjury on no one.
In other words, when various witnesses tell their story from
different angles and different lighting and different points of view,
I don't expect them to fit like a fingerprint. So
(10:49):
hearing what the grandpa is saying that he was watching
the boy from that location, he turned away, he says,
for a moment. It could be ten minutes. He turns back,
and the boy was gone. I don't mean he had
to go over a ridge and disappear where the grandpa's
(11:10):
sitting could do or have run off to play and
gotten out of the grandpa's vision.
Speaker 8 (11:15):
Yes, he could have just disappeared.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Okay, that much I agree with you, David Marshboro. I
also agreed that there's not some kind of a ridge
like he falls off the end of the earth, and
you can't see him anymore, but I do believe that
door could have wandered off and be out of his vision,
his line of sight. And it's not the first time
it's happened.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Listen.
Speaker 11 (11:40):
Cherla was camping with her family here in Moroe Steve Park.
Last evening. She went out on a bike ride. It
wasn't dark, it was right around dinner time, and did
a couple of loops with close friends she considers her cousins.
And then she decided after going around Troop Bay, she
said she's wanting to go around one more time by
her be that big girl, do it by herself. Literally
(12:04):
fifteen minutes later she hadn't come back yet, And that's
really when the nightmare begins.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Of course, we're talking about little Charlotte Cina. She was
with her family in remote camping area of State New
York and is riding her bike on a loop directly
in front of the parents and their relatives that are
all there for a big camp out and cookout, going
round and round and round and round.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
With the other children.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And the reason I bring up Charlotte, David Marshburne is
because that loop that she was riding her bike right
there at the campsite with campers and tents around the
little loop.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
She was riding a bike. If you look down.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
That hill, there was a road and the kidnapper was
on that road. He'd been scoping out Charlotte and as
she rode her bike to the furthest edge of that loop,
he grabbed her.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
They found her bike. She was found alive.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Several days later under a cupboard in a camper the
perp pad behind his mother's house she lived.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
But it was just like that.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
They were looking at her, they turned to the grill out,
they look back, she's gone.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
It can happen just like that. Marshburn, I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
So back to the case in chief, it could have
happened that way here as well.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Do you agree or disagree, Nate Eaton.
Speaker 10 (13:39):
I think it could have happened very well. Nancy.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
This, like I said, it's a remote area. And the
one thing that we haven't talked about yet that you
might want to is.
Speaker 10 (13:48):
Wild animals are in the area. There's bears, there's wolf dens.
Speaker 7 (13:52):
There's also mines that are in the area that if
you're that are you know, hundreds of years old that
if you're walking around and you misstep you could fall
into a mine and never be found. So, yeah, the
terrain is not it's not one if you decide to,
you know, take a two year old out that they're
going to get very far.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Crime stories with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
What's the address of your emergency?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I'm an every camping in lad Work, those outside of
ladwor Uh huh my three year old son. We can't
find him.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
How long has he been missing?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
About an hour?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Are you by water?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Do you know what's campground you're in?
Speaker 10 (14:41):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
It's Stone Reservoir, Timber Creek, Stone Reservoir, Yeah, or Timber Creek.
Hold on.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
We made search and rescue.
Speaker 12 (14:50):
Both lem High and Bonneville County Sheriffs, alongside hundreds of
volunteers search the Timber Creek campground for days looking for
any sign of the yor dive team spend hours come
the creek, running along the campsite and Stone reservoir, a
shallow body of water feeding the creek foot searchers spread
out over a three mile radius. He been checking animal
dens for any signs of diorg joining us.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Nate Eaton from Eastidaho News dot Com News director Nate
tell me about the immediate search. I need to know A.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Who was searching? B.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
How long did it take to get searchers in c
Had the family already started searching?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And what were their efforts? Can you describe that.
Speaker 10 (15:31):
The family has started to search Nancy on foot?
Speaker 7 (15:34):
And also remember that there were only like four of
them out there with Dior, so it was the four
of them parents were searching, Vernal says. The dad says,
he hopped in his truck and started to search.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It wasn't wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute,
hopped in his truck. How can you hop in the
truck if you can only get up there in a ATV, Well,
you can get up.
Speaker 7 (15:52):
There in a truck if it's a four wheel drive.
So his truck was there on the site, and so
he tells us that he immediately did a search around
the campsite, then got in this trunck, did a search there,
then drove down the path to call nine to one one.
It takes some time to get up there, so the
sheriff's office responded before a small search and rescue crew responded,
and within twenty four to forty eight hours, you had
(16:14):
people on horseback, You had people on ATVs. You had
drones in the air, some helicopters were brought in from
nearby Montana to search the area. And I would say
that first week or so they did a search out there,
and what they were doing is to mark off areas
they had been They were tying pink ribbons around trees
to let other searchers know that that specific area had
(16:38):
been searched.
Speaker 10 (16:38):
But this is a vast, remote area, Nancy. I mean
it would.
Speaker 7 (16:43):
Take thousands and thousands of people who knows how long
to cover every single square foot of.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Nate Eton. In my
mind your bass ackwards.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
It may be thousands and thousands of acres.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yes, I can't argue.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
With the map, but a little two year old boy
wearing cowboy boots almost as tall as him, he could
not have gotten.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Thousands and thousands of acres away. I don't need to
search thousands and thousands of acres.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I need to search that immediate area and then start
moving out.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
David Marshburn, how did they do the search?
Speaker 8 (17:20):
From what I'm understanding, they focused their area on the
creek and they started up where the parents said. They
stated they were at to the bottom where you can
cross over with a vehicle, and that's what they concentrated
mostly on for three to four days.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So they started mostly in Wait, just give me the
parameters one more time, David.
Speaker 8 (17:43):
Within one hundred feet from the campsite is how they started.
And they started in the creek from the top down
to the bottom. I think the farthest they were was
around three hundred feet to where the creek crosses, where
the road creek crosses over the creek.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Let me ask you a question, David or Nate, and
I'm going to bring in Dr Gorniat, doctor Jeff Kalashewski,
and Pendry Trammel in just one moment.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
But could a two year.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Old boy wearing those boots have crossed that creek?
Speaker 1 (18:18):
What do you think?
Speaker 8 (18:19):
David Marshburn Absolutely not, There's no way, Okay, I could
have got within one hundred feet from that campsite, just
on flat ground.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And Nate Eaton I agree with Marshburn.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
If he had made it to the creek, I don't
know that he would have gotten in the water and
tried to cross it in cowboy boots. I don't know
if the creek was so deep that was impossible, and
if he had, we would have evidence of him doing that.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Would you agree with that, Nate.
Speaker 10 (18:51):
Eaton, Absolutely, Yeah, I don't think he could have made
it to the creek.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
If had he made it somehow miraculously to the creek,
the creek would have stopped him. He could not have
crossed it. And then, you know the part of the
creek that I've been to, there's a little hill right
past the creek. He then have to go uphill. And remember,
they weren't just cowboy boots, Nancy. They were cowboy boots
that were one or two sizes bigger than his feet.
You know how it is to walk in shoes that
(19:15):
are bigger than your feet, especially as a kid. You're
kind of clumping along. So it's not like they were
tight and attached to his feet. But there's been no
sign of those boots had he made it to the creek,
there's been no signs of his clothing, there's been no
signs of him.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And if he had made it to the creek and
across the creek, we would absolutely have evidence on the
other side.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Of the creek. Now, this is what I want to know.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
You mentioned a bridge going over the creek and a
roadway could do yor have been seen from the road
or the bridge.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
What about it, Dave Marshburne.
Speaker 8 (19:53):
Well, what it is. It's a creek that you drive
over the creek, into the creek and up on the
other side, so it's not like there's a bridge or
stepping stones, and the water, the water moving so quickly
would sweep the child off his feet. It would almost
sweep a grown man off his feet. So it's only
(20:16):
like a foot deep, but it's still moving swiftly the
whole time during the year, so there's no way the
child could have crossed the creek without being swept into
the creek. And then you have buffers every twenty thirty
feet that where the creek has accumulated sticks and brush
and everything, so it would have stopped and someone if
(20:39):
he was in the creek, he would have been found
the first day.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I agree, and that's why I was asking they eat
And how quickly the searchers got there. Would you say
they converged in an hour or less than two hours.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
I would probably say two to three hours to be
more accurate. And you know, David's right, they did focus
on on that campground at.
Speaker 10 (21:01):
First for the first several days and the.
Speaker 7 (21:04):
Creek then they spread out to see it. If maybe
you know one of the theories was did a large
bird or a mountain lion pick Deure up and take
him elsewhere and drop him or something like that.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Did you just say a large bird that was.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
One of the theories of a large eagle or something picking
him up, mountain lion there?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Guess what, maybe a little green man from mars Cane
camping that day and got him. A bird did not
get the boy. Okay, a mountain lion did not get
the boy. Am I crazy?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Or have you?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And I been working on the Suzanne Morphew case, right,
Suzanne Morphy was not attacked by a mountain lion? Why
because we have done studies on it and we know
there would be in disha left behind that there had
been some type of a tangle with a mountain lion.
There would be clothing, there would be blood, there would
be struggle, something Nate eat. After all this time, you
(22:02):
want to get up here on crime stories and say
a bird may have taken to.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
Your saying I believe that, Nancy, I'm saying that was
one of the theories that was looked at that had
a bird or a large bird, eagle, something or an
animal picked him up then taken him somewhere else, or
even a person, if a person had made their way
into that campground, as remote as it is, and then
discarded him somewhere else. That's why the search then spread
(22:28):
out as far as they could go.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
The search for two year old Yor is on joining
me an all star panel. But I want you to hear,
just to throw another wrench in the works, what happened.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
Listen, while we were doing our grid search, someone came
in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one
at that site. And I'm assuming it's a favorite site
of their loved one. And without thinking, they deposited these cremaines,
not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And what it would do what someone comes onto the
search scene to spread ashes?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Did this really happen, Nate Eaton, It did happen.
Speaker 7 (23:13):
It did happen someone unbeknownst that this child was missing.
It was a reservoir that their family member loved to
go to. They went up dumped the cremaines in the reservoir. That's,
of course, when the dog the dogs picked up a scent.
There was human cremaines, and so we were up there
when they were searching that reservoir. It's divers for several
(23:35):
days were under the water, and that's when this person
that dumped the cremaines came forward and said, actually, the
dogs might be getting this sort of scent, and unfortunately
they never found do your in that reservoir?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So do your Based on everything Nate and David are
telling us, was not in the creek.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
He was not in the reservoir.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
These people came upon a crime scene and throw out
human remains, cremated remains, which throws the search into chaos
with the scent dogs, but then another dead end listen.
Speaker 13 (24:15):
Two days after Dior's disappearance, Lemi County Sheriffs receive a
tip from amm And, Idaho, some one hundred and twenty
miles away. The collar is a Walmart employee who sold
a man several boxes of diapers. The man was towing
along a blonde, hazel eyed todd boy. Police identify the
man's vehicle from surveillance footage, but when they track him down,
the toddler is not. Dior. Frustrated by the dead end,
(24:36):
Sheriff Lynn Bauerman comments, every two and a half year
old with blonde hair looks just like Dior.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Straight back to you, Nate, and then I'll bring in
David Penury, doctor Kilaschewski, and doctor Gorniak. Nate Aton a
false sighting. Now, I don't blame the people that called
it in. They're trying to help, but it really skewers
the timeline here. Resources go to that down and it's
a dead end. But the real focus should be where
(25:06):
do your went missing?
Speaker 14 (25:07):
Right?
Speaker 15 (25:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (25:08):
Police rushed to that Walmart. We went down there and
they pulled the surveillance footage. They were able to track
that guy in a nearby town. They went to his house,
cleared him right away. He had nothing to do with
the case. There was another sighting Nancy at a hotel
in California, have a beautiful little boy that looked just
like yours. I guess the good thing is that people
were alert and paying attention to the fact that he
(25:30):
was missing. Turns out that case was not related to
this one. But yeah, I mean, it does divert resources
away from the fact.
Speaker 10 (25:38):
That he's still missing.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
It's at this juncture, the search gets turned on its
ear listen.
Speaker 13 (25:56):
Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Coons tell investigators just after breakfast
they take Deor with them on a gas run to
fill up Kuhon's diesel truck. The stage shop doesn't sell
diesel and the station two doors down is out of gas.
The family finally finds diesel at Peterson's Welding, then returns
to the stage shop for a few supplies and snacks,
specifically French fries for York. The couple has receipts for
(26:18):
the gas and snacks, but everyone who was at the
stores at the time only remembers a couple coming in.
They did not see a child.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Back to David Marshburne, the Kon's finally family, private investigator
and director of investigations at Search for Me Foundation, former
bounty hunter. Jessica Mitchell and Vernald Koon's tail investigators. After breakfast,
they take to Yor with them on a gas run
(26:47):
to fill up the diesel truck now number one. The
stage shop doesn't sell diesel and the station two doors
down was out of diesel gas. The family finally finds
diesel at Peterson's Welding and then returned back to the
(27:07):
stage shop for supplies and snacks, French fies for Dior.
They've got the receipts for gas and snacks. Nobody at
the store sees a child with them. Now, let me
understand something. This is where the facts seem to diverge
from me. I thought Dior was back with the grandpa
(27:30):
and that's where he gets lost. Now I'm hearing that
he goes to get snacks and gas. Now back to
the truism. It's my dauty to make all witness to
speak the truth. Did these two things happen at two
different times?
Speaker 8 (27:45):
What happened is once they got breakfast everything, the mom
and dad took the child and they went into town
to get diesel fuel. And then when they come back
is when the grandpa watches the child.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Okay, I'm glad I suss that out with you. So
that's true. Now these people to Doctor Jeff Kelishevski joining me.
A forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides. You can find
him on YouTube. Doctor Jeff Kelishevski, forensic psychologist. Got a
(28:23):
question for you, Doctor Jeff Kelishevsky. Doctor Jeff many people,
legal eagles and others have attacked those citizens that come
forward with a siding sightings that are dead ends that
are not door. Also the people at the gas station
(28:43):
and the stage shop, they have been attacked.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Claiming they're slowing down the investigation.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
For all I know, these people in the stage shop
just didn't see deyor there's no indication he was left
out in the truck.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
That didn't happen.
Speaker 16 (29:01):
So what's your response, Well, I think what's important is
particularly missing cases situations that law enforcement and anyone involved
gather as much information as they can. As you know,
interviewing witnesses, sometimes you have a witness's perception, sometimes you
have what they're willing to tell you, and you have
(29:23):
to compare that to what's in the environment of the
potential crime scene and look at the logistics how do
people move within that crime scene. So gathering all the information,
looking to see what lines up and what doesn't line up,
and that sort of sets a stage for your next
(29:44):
inquiry or set of questions is important. So the more
information the better. You can always rule out things as
a misperception, as a mistake. But what you need to
do is take all that information find where there's consistencies
where things are plausible and where things are maybe not plausible,
rule those out and that leads to your next inquiry.
Speaker 12 (30:08):
Retired US Marshall Frank Hilt volunteers to help the family
find Deorilt puts up personal savings for a reward, and
dedicates all of his time to the case. A month later,
Veilt terminates his working relationship with Vernal Kons and Jessica Mitchell.
Gilt explains his reasoning in a letter to the parents. Quote,
I told both of you that if I felt you
were not telling the truth, stalling me or otherwise misleading me,
(30:31):
that I would withdraw from the investigation. Both of you
lied and misrepresented the true facts that could solve the
mystery of your missing son.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
David Marshburne, the Kons family private investigator and director of
Search for Me Foundation. This guy voluntarily joins the search,
puts some money for a reward, and then drops out
because he believes the father and girlfriend are line.
Speaker 8 (30:56):
Yes, ma'am, but you have to look at the situation.
Built respectable man, good at what he did. He came
from a US Marshall background which he went after abducted
children by the opposite parent. He seemed to get tunnel
vision about Jessica adopting the child out behind Bernald's back,
(31:19):
and because they refused to take a reward for the child,
he even got even stronger about his belief that they
gave the child up for adoption. Either Jessica did it
without Bernal's acknowledgment, or they both did it. But the
parents were told by the FBI when they sepped in
(31:41):
not to give out any type of reward because it
could lead to a lot more false leads, and they
wanted to spend more of their time at the campsite
in the general area.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Okay, so that could be. That could be murky as
to why he really left. But then there is another
PI listen.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
After Frank Viilt removes himself from the investigation, the parents
turned to another private investigator, Philip Klein, takes on the
case and is hopeful that he will find little Dior,
But Klein quickly runs into the same issues Viilt did.
Klein says the couple's story frequently changes and their timeline
of events crumbles under scrutiny.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Joining me right now is a renowned attorney, Penrie Trammel,
civil litigator, former prosecutor in Oregon and Idaho. You can
find her at Smith Malik dot com.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Pandri, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
There's a reason polygraphs don't come into court. Many people argue,
like fingerprints, that was contested once too, but now it
comes into court. But here we've got five polygraphs where
Vernald Coots fails. He even fails the control question. Are
(32:57):
you going to tell us the truth today?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I mean, yes, bad panjury, it is bad.
Speaker 14 (33:02):
You know, yes, those polygraphs don't come into court based
on some of the science behind them. But when you're
looking at five failed polygraphs, there is reason for concern there,
especially when you fail that very first question penjury travel.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I'm sure encountered lie detector tests polygraphs, but again, both
of these people in tandem are failing multiple polygraphs. It's
bad enough if one fails, but remember these two were together.
When di Yor goes missing. This is not a good sign. Pandry.
(33:35):
Now you've handled a lot of domestic and custody cases
that go south.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
What's your analysis?
Speaker 14 (33:42):
Sure, So when we're looking at these polygraphs that are
getting completely inconsistent, especially with two people that were at
the same crime scene seeing the same things. We're looking at,
where's the consistency, where's the corroboration, you know, where are
those things that are lining up, and where are they
diverging and are those on key factors?
Speaker 16 (34:01):
Right?
Speaker 14 (34:01):
If we're looking at divergence on key factors or they
can't keep it straight, that's when we start looking at
those key factors and seeing what went left.
Speaker 8 (34:09):
Bernald did not take five polygraphs. He took two. He
did inconclusive pass on each one. Jessica Mitchell did two
live detector tests. It come in conclusive pass. And the
reason why it did that in the in the FBI
agent actually told them the reason why it was in
(34:30):
conclusive pass was because of the stress that they were
going through of losing a child.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Join me right now, a renowned medical examiner, doctor Jen Gorniac,
who has been waiting patiently, dtr Gorniac, former medical examiner
in Clark County. That's Vegas Board certified pathologist, doctor Gorniac.
We know that Dior Kuntz went on that trip. We
(34:57):
know it's very heavy terrain. We are convinced he never
made it into the water, which means either he got lost,
and that would it expanse or he was kidnapped? Question
to you, The most obvious answer is he's lost in
the expanse, either killed or got lost on his own,
(35:22):
doctor Gorniac. If his remains were found, now, would he
be identifiable at.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
This point in time?
Speaker 10 (35:30):
Baby, do you?
Speaker 15 (35:31):
Or would not be identifiable? Unfortunately, I looked up the
weather at that time.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
It's in July.
Speaker 15 (35:39):
It's in the eighties, and for a little kid, it
will take less than a few hours for them to
start to decompose. So twenty four hours later he would
start to be decomposing. And like one of your other
guests says, there's probably animals out in the in the
in the brush and will probably got to by but
(36:00):
these years later, they're probably he's probably skeletonized, completely skeletonized.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
If he's found.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Though, even if his remains are simply skeletons, couldn't we
still tell that it was a human child?
Speaker 15 (36:15):
Yes, you would then have to employ an anthropologist, a
frontic anthropologist who can look at the bones and take
measurements and determine the sex and the height of the
child depending on teeth. Not sure if he had went
to the dentist, but probably at that time he didn't
have any cavities or fillings in his teeth that would
(36:35):
be able to identify him. But had he had some
X rays of his teeth, of his skull at some point,
then would be able to do it. I'm not sure
there'll be any bone marrow left to do DNA. It'd
be very difficult. In a case like this. It would
probably come down to circumstantial saying that based on the
information and the circumstances, we can't do it scientifically fingerprints, DNA, dentist,
(37:04):
so we would have to say circumstantially this is probably.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Dear doctor Gorniac.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I can't think of any way if his remains are
there that he would not be skeletonized.
Speaker 15 (37:16):
Correct, you would be skeletonized. But this case, as a
forensic pathologist, I have so many of the questions. So
our job as a friend of pathologist, besides causing man
or death identification of the body is to prove or
disprove the circumstances. I can't imagine any of these scenarios
where you're not going to hear a child scream, cry,
(37:38):
any other noises that the grandfather or the friend of
the grandfather would have heard. So let's just say a
big bird came down, you would have heard something. I'm
not sure that a two year old would just be silent.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Pendri Trammel with US renowned civil litigator and former criminal
prosecutor at Smith Malik dot com. Pendrey, in a case
like this, if his remains are found, it would be
very difficult to prove or disprove that he was murdered
(38:11):
unless his remains have been buried or secreted in some way.
Speaker 14 (38:17):
Sure, I think that would be again that circumstantial evidence
that doctor Gorniac was talking about.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
You're looking at what's.
Speaker 14 (38:23):
Surrounding where you find, unfortunately, the child's remains.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
At that point, the other thing you'd.
Speaker 14 (38:29):
Be looking at is is there anybody.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Else that's gone missing in that area?
Speaker 14 (38:33):
Are we ruling out other potential children that have gone missing?
You have to look at the entire picture and kind
of put those circumstantial pieces together too.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
David Marshburn joining us se Kun's Family Private Investigator Directorate
Search for Me Foundation. David, what do you think happened?
Speaker 8 (38:53):
I do believe there was foul play involved. I do
not believe the parents were involved in that.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Where is Dior Coons.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Do you know how much money, how many thousands, how
many tens of thousands of dollars many people in this
country would pay to get a little child like deor
he could be anywhere. If you know or think you
know anything about the disappearance of this child, please dial
(39:27):
the tip line to zero eight seven five six eight
nine eight zero two zero eight seven five six eight
nine eight zero. We wait for justice to unfold and
the search of Totboy Diyor Coons.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
And now we.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Stopped to remember an American hero Officer, Brandon Paul Astorf
of Base Saint Louis Police Department in Mississippi, just twenty three,
shot and killed in the line of duty, Survived by
a grieving mother and father Nan also in law enforcement,
(40:11):
siblings Lily, Sophia, Jordana, Chloe, and Andrew. American hero Officer
Brandon Paul Estorf. Thank you to all of our guests
for joining us in the search for Door, but especially
to you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Nancy Gray signing off, good bye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Beautiful boy, age two, vanishes from a family camping trip tonight.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Where is door? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Let's the address of your emergency.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
I'm actually camping and lead work goes outside of lead work.
Uh huh my two year old son. We can't find them?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
How long has he been missing?
Speaker 4 (00:35):
About for an hour?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Are you by water? Yes?
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Do you know which campground you're in? It's Stone Reservoir,
Timber Creek, Stone Reservoir, Yeah, for Timber Creek.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Hold on, we needs such and rescue.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You are hearing the nine to one one call from
the camping area for a two year old little top boy. Absolutely,
beautiful baby seemingly vanishes into thin air. Let's listen to
more of that nine to one one call.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
What do we learn, Jessica? Jessica? Yeah, what's your son's name?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
What is he wearing?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
He was wearing cowboy boot a blue like padma pants
as a panel jacket, and he's got show you blorn.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Here is your husband calling too?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Like all down where we were counting at and we
can't find her?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Mettle Okay, we need you to stay within cell service.
We've had people going on on the.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Way joining me an all star panel to make sense
of what we know right now for us straight out
to Nate eighton, joining US news director East Idaho News
dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Nate, listen to this.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Vernal Coons and girlfriend Jessica Mitchell lived together in Idaho
Falls with their two year old son Dior. On a whim,
Konts and Mitchell decide to take door camping outside Leodor.
Mitchell invites along her grandfather, Robert Walton, and a friend
of Walton's. The group arrives to Timber Creek campground after
dark and sleeps in the next morning. Finishing breakfast around
eleven am, Coots, Mitchell and Dior go into town for
(02:12):
gas and a few groceries, returning to camp about two
hours later.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And they leave door with grandpa, who's watching the child.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Listen to our friends East Idaho News.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Grandpa's watching the child, he tells me. He looks away momentarily.
When he looks back, he's gone, and he's assumed he's
gone over the bank right where Grandpa's sitting. He's within
twenty to thirty yards of the only roadway into the campground,
and absolutely no one was seen at that lower campground
coming or going.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
When children are kidnapped, nobody ever sees anyone coming or going.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
What happened to Dior. In addition to.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Nate Eon joining us from East Idaho News Dot Coffee
shot to fame during the whole Mom Laurie Valley case.
In addition to him is a very well known private investigator,
David Mashburn, director of investigations at Search for Me Foundation
(03:14):
and a former bounty hunter. I can tell you this,
he's been around the block once or twice. Nati, straight
out to you. Tell me about the terrain. Where do
your went missing?
Speaker 7 (03:26):
Oh, Nancy, this is a very remote area. You have
to take a four wheel drive or an ATV to
get back there. When we went out there, you know,
it would have ruined our car if it was a
small car. It's down a very long, dusty road. There's
no cell phone service. There is a creek that runs
through that campground. There's a big hill near the campground.
There's a reservoir on the other side of the hill.
(03:47):
It is extremely remote. It would be very hard for
a little boy the age of Dior to get anywhere
really in cowboy boots that were bigger than his feet.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Door just two years old at the time he goes missing.
In addition to investigative reporter and news director Nate Eaton,
joining us now special guests David Marshburne, former bounty hunter
work for the family. He's a private investigator and director
(04:18):
at Search for Me Foundation.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
David, thank you for being with us. Dave got a question.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I want to follow up on the terrain that Nate
Eaton was just describing, and before we go any further
about what Grandpa did or didn't do wrong. I've had
a lot of cases where a child is being watched
and in the twinkling of an eye, the child is gone.
But I want to talk about this terrain because the
(04:46):
way they're telling it, David and I believe Grandpa he's
watching the child, looks away momentarily, and he turns around.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I don't know how long that moment was.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It could have been one minute, it could have been
thirty seconds, it could have been thirty minutes. He looks
back and Doyor is gone. Now right where Grandpa's sitting.
And this is according to the share of Lynn Barrlmann.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
We just heard talking he's just.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Twenty to thirty yards from the only roadway into the campground.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Is that right, David Marshburn.
Speaker 8 (05:18):
Yeah, the terrain is very rough and you have a
lot of sage brush, and that's what makes it difficult
to move around out there, except for certain little areas
that are grassy and you know, just dirt, plain dirt.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Question, Dave Marshburn, you brought up something really interesting just
imagining this little this little taut in that sage brush.
You mentioned sagebrush specifically, why would that make it difficult
to move around in impede the search?
Speaker 8 (05:47):
Well, sagebrush is sort of like a briary book bush
that has a lot of hard limbs on it. I
mean it just slight walking through a compact of bush.
It's just it's very difficult to maneuver around because they
all intertwine with one another. You can walk between them somewhat.
(06:11):
As an adult, you can stand above it and get
around it, but as a two and a half year old,
it would be hard to maneuver through it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm just thinking through what you're saying, and you would know.
Speaker 8 (06:23):
As an adult just make sure it like this going
through a cornfield. Basically, if you're a two and a
half year old going through sagebrush. It's like an adult
going through a cornfield.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Now, now I can understand what you're saying, David Marshburn.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
It would be like me going through a corn maze.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Got him that he wouldn't be able to see anything.
And from where the grandpa was sitting, Dave Marshburn, how
far away was the sage brush?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Was it right there?
Speaker 8 (06:55):
It was within fifteen twenty feet of them.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Okay, guys, listen to this.
Speaker 9 (07:03):
By that time, it was almost two and he usually
takes his nap. We were just yeah, we said we're
going to go a little explore and he was going
to be good with grandpa.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
By the campfire.
Speaker 8 (07:13):
We were at more than probably.
Speaker 9 (07:15):
Fifty fifty yards away in ten minutes. I've actually seen
there were some things down by a little minnos that
I thought he would just love. So when I come
back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa,
whereas you know, where's little Dior?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
He immediately shocked. This is he came up to.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You, Dad and girlfriends speaking to East Idaho News.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, let's analyze that.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
You know, Nate Eaton sadly Nate joining us from East Ida,
who news Sadly, when a child goes missing, you always
look at the family, and statistically, very often you're looking
in the right direction, but almost.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
As many times it's not the family.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So I'm looking at them talking. I want to analyze
what they're saying, and that fits hand in glove with
what the grandpa was saying.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
What do you make of what he said.
Speaker 7 (08:10):
Well, he is insistent that they went to look at
the fish. They went to look at the minnows, and
when they got back, they thought that Dior was his grandpa.
Grandpa thought that Dior was with his parents, and that
when they came back, they said, where's door He's gone. Well,
they start to search around the campsite. They can't find him.
They search fifteen to twenty minutes. That he gets in
(08:30):
his truck. He goes to search further. That's when they
went down the way to call nine one one because
there was no cell phone reception.
Speaker 10 (08:36):
Nancy.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
When they came into talk with me, they brought Dior's
one of his little monkey toys. They brought his blanket.
They seemed very distraught, they seemed upset. They wanted to
know where their son was.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So Nate Eaton, you're analyzing, as am I every word
because every word counts.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Take a listen to the County sheer from our friends
at East Idaho.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
They supposedly thought they were turning their child over to
their grandfather, the child's great grandfather. They went down to
the creek, which is right next to the campground, and
within ten to fifteen minutes they go up to find
their child to show them some fish in the stream,
and he's nowhere to be found. Grandfather assumes he's gone
(09:23):
down to them because he was within their line of
sight and wasn't too far from the campground. They started
their initial search and eventually called nine one one when
they realized they couldn't find the child.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
You know, Dave Marshburne again, you've been working on the case.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I want to make sure.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
That what we're hearing jives with the topography, with the saying,
does it make sense what grandpa says, let's start with him.
Speaker 8 (09:55):
I do not agree with that.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Okay, what about the topography does not fit.
Speaker 8 (09:59):
That scenari because it's not an edge you can just
fall off of if you walk to the edge of
the right. What the decline is to the creek, you
would hit something, that something would stop you before you
entered the creek.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Is there a way, you know?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I had a judge who was the oldest judge in
the Fulton County Courthouse and the wisest, I might add,
And one thing he told every.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Jury, and I know it by heart.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
It is your duty, members of the jury, to make
all witnesses speak the truth and impune perjury on no one.
In other words, when various witnesses tell their story from
different angles and different lighting and different points of view,
I don't expect them to fit like a fingerprint. So
(10:49):
hearing what the grandpa is saying that he was watching
the boy from that location, he turned away, he says,
for a moment. It could be ten minutes. He turns back,
and the boy was gone. I don't mean he had
to go over a ridge and disappear where the grandpa's
(11:10):
sitting could do or have run off to play and
gotten out of the grandpa's vision.
Speaker 8 (11:15):
Yes, he could have just disappeared.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Okay, that much I agree with you, David Marshboro. I
also agreed that there's not some kind of a ridge
like he falls off the end of the earth, and
you can't see him anymore, but I do believe that
door could have wandered off and be out of his vision,
his line of sight. And it's not the first time
it's happened.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Listen.
Speaker 11 (11:40):
Cherla was camping with her family here in Moroe Steve Park.
Last evening. She went out on a bike ride. It
wasn't dark, it was right around dinner time, and did
a couple of loops with close friends she considers her cousins.
And then she decided after going around Troop Bay, she
said she's wanting to go around one more time by
her be that big girl, do it by herself. Literally
(12:04):
fifteen minutes later she hadn't come back yet, And that's
really when the nightmare begins.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Of course, we're talking about little Charlotte Cina. She was
with her family in remote camping area of State New
York and is riding her bike on a loop directly
in front of the parents and their relatives that are
all there for a big camp out and cookout, going
round and round and round and round.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
With the other children.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And the reason I bring up Charlotte, David Marshburne is
because that loop that she was riding her bike right
there at the campsite with campers and tents around the
little loop.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
She was riding a bike. If you look down.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
That hill, there was a road and the kidnapper was
on that road. He'd been scoping out Charlotte and as
she rode her bike to the furthest edge of that loop,
he grabbed her.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
They found her bike. She was found alive.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Several days later under a cupboard in a camper the
perp pad behind his mother's house she lived.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
But it was just like that.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
They were looking at her, they turned to the grill out,
they look back, she's gone.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
It can happen just like that. Marshburn, I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
So back to the case in chief, it could have
happened that way here as well.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Do you agree or disagree, Nate Eaton.
Speaker 10 (13:39):
I think it could have happened very well. Nancy.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
This, like I said, it's a remote area. And the
one thing that we haven't talked about yet that you
might want to is.
Speaker 10 (13:48):
Wild animals are in the area. There's bears, there's wolf dens.
Speaker 7 (13:52):
There's also mines that are in the area that if
you're that are you know, hundreds of years old that
if you're walking around and you misstep you could fall
into a mine and never be found. So, yeah, the
terrain is not it's not one if you decide to,
you know, take a two year old out that they're
going to get very far.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Crime stories with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
What's the address of your emergency?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I'm an every camping in lad Work, those outside of
ladwor Uh huh my three year old son. We can't
find him.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
How long has he been missing?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
About an hour?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Are you by water?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Do you know what's campground you're in?
Speaker 10 (14:41):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
It's Stone Reservoir, Timber Creek, Stone Reservoir, Yeah, or Timber Creek.
Hold on.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
We made search and rescue.
Speaker 12 (14:50):
Both lem High and Bonneville County Sheriffs, alongside hundreds of
volunteers search the Timber Creek campground for days looking for
any sign of the yor dive team spend hours come
the creek, running along the campsite and Stone reservoir, a
shallow body of water feeding the creek foot searchers spread
out over a three mile radius. He been checking animal
dens for any signs of diorg joining us.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Nate Eaton from Eastidaho News dot Com News director Nate
tell me about the immediate search. I need to know A.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Who was searching? B.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
How long did it take to get searchers in c
Had the family already started searching?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And what were their efforts? Can you describe that.
Speaker 10 (15:31):
The family has started to search Nancy on foot?
Speaker 7 (15:34):
And also remember that there were only like four of
them out there with Dior, so it was the four
of them parents were searching, Vernal says. The dad says,
he hopped in his truck and started to search.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It wasn't wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute,
hopped in his truck. How can you hop in the
truck if you can only get up there in a ATV, Well,
you can get up.
Speaker 7 (15:52):
There in a truck if it's a four wheel drive.
So his truck was there on the site, and so
he tells us that he immediately did a search around
the campsite, then got in this trunck, did a search there,
then drove down the path to call nine to one one.
It takes some time to get up there, so the
sheriff's office responded before a small search and rescue crew responded,
and within twenty four to forty eight hours, you had
(16:14):
people on horseback, You had people on ATVs. You had
drones in the air, some helicopters were brought in from
nearby Montana to search the area. And I would say
that first week or so they did a search out there,
and what they were doing is to mark off areas
they had been They were tying pink ribbons around trees
to let other searchers know that that specific area had
(16:38):
been searched.
Speaker 10 (16:38):
But this is a vast, remote area, Nancy. I mean
it would.
Speaker 7 (16:43):
Take thousands and thousands of people who knows how long
to cover every single square foot of.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Nate Eton. In my
mind your bass ackwards.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
It may be thousands and thousands of acres.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yes, I can't argue.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
With the map, but a little two year old boy
wearing cowboy boots almost as tall as him, he could
not have gotten.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Thousands and thousands of acres away. I don't need to
search thousands and thousands of acres.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I need to search that immediate area and then start
moving out.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
David Marshburn, how did they do the search?
Speaker 8 (17:20):
From what I'm understanding, they focused their area on the
creek and they started up where the parents said. They
stated they were at to the bottom where you can
cross over with a vehicle, and that's what they concentrated
mostly on for three to four days.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So they started mostly in Wait, just give me the
parameters one more time, David.
Speaker 8 (17:43):
Within one hundred feet from the campsite is how they started.
And they started in the creek from the top down
to the bottom. I think the farthest they were was
around three hundred feet to where the creek crosses, where
the road creek crosses over the creek.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Let me ask you a question, David or Nate, and
I'm going to bring in Dr Gorniat, doctor Jeff Kalashewski,
and Pendry Trammel in just one moment.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
But could a two year.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Old boy wearing those boots have crossed that creek?
Speaker 1 (18:18):
What do you think?
Speaker 8 (18:19):
David Marshburn Absolutely not, There's no way, Okay, I could
have got within one hundred feet from that campsite, just
on flat ground.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And Nate Eaton I agree with Marshburn.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
If he had made it to the creek, I don't
know that he would have gotten in the water and
tried to cross it in cowboy boots. I don't know
if the creek was so deep that was impossible, and
if he had, we would have evidence of him doing that.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Would you agree with that, Nate.
Speaker 10 (18:51):
Eaton, Absolutely, Yeah, I don't think he could have made
it to the creek.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
If had he made it somehow miraculously to the creek,
the creek would have stopped him. He could not have
crossed it. And then, you know the part of the
creek that I've been to, there's a little hill right
past the creek. He then have to go uphill. And remember,
they weren't just cowboy boots, Nancy. They were cowboy boots
that were one or two sizes bigger than his feet.
You know how it is to walk in shoes that
(19:15):
are bigger than your feet, especially as a kid. You're
kind of clumping along. So it's not like they were
tight and attached to his feet. But there's been no
sign of those boots had he made it to the creek,
there's been no signs of his clothing, there's been no
signs of him.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And if he had made it to the creek and
across the creek, we would absolutely have evidence on the
other side.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Of the creek. Now, this is what I want to know.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
You mentioned a bridge going over the creek and a
roadway could do yor have been seen from the road
or the bridge.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
What about it, Dave Marshburne.
Speaker 8 (19:53):
Well, what it is. It's a creek that you drive
over the creek, into the creek and up on the
other side, so it's not like there's a bridge or
stepping stones, and the water, the water moving so quickly
would sweep the child off his feet. It would almost
sweep a grown man off his feet. So it's only
(20:16):
like a foot deep, but it's still moving swiftly the
whole time during the year, so there's no way the
child could have crossed the creek without being swept into
the creek. And then you have buffers every twenty thirty
feet that where the creek has accumulated sticks and brush
and everything, so it would have stopped and someone if
(20:39):
he was in the creek, he would have been found
the first day.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I agree, and that's why I was asking they eat
And how quickly the searchers got there. Would you say
they converged in an hour or less than two hours.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
I would probably say two to three hours to be
more accurate. And you know, David's right, they did focus
on on that campground at.
Speaker 10 (21:01):
First for the first several days and the.
Speaker 7 (21:04):
Creek then they spread out to see it. If maybe
you know one of the theories was did a large
bird or a mountain lion pick Deure up and take
him elsewhere and drop him or something like that.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Did you just say a large bird that was.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
One of the theories of a large eagle or something picking
him up, mountain lion there?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Guess what, maybe a little green man from mars Cane
camping that day and got him. A bird did not
get the boy. Okay, a mountain lion did not get
the boy. Am I crazy?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Or have you?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And I been working on the Suzanne Morphew case, right,
Suzanne Morphy was not attacked by a mountain lion? Why
because we have done studies on it and we know
there would be in disha left behind that there had
been some type of a tangle with a mountain lion.
There would be clothing, there would be blood, there would
be struggle, something Nate eat. After all this time, you
(22:02):
want to get up here on crime stories and say
a bird may have taken to.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
Your saying I believe that, Nancy, I'm saying that was
one of the theories that was looked at that had
a bird or a large bird, eagle, something or an
animal picked him up then taken him somewhere else, or
even a person, if a person had made their way
into that campground, as remote as it is, and then
discarded him somewhere else. That's why the search then spread
(22:28):
out as far as they could go.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
The search for two year old Yor is on joining
me an all star panel. But I want you to hear,
just to throw another wrench in the works, what happened.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
Listen, while we were doing our grid search, someone came
in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one
at that site. And I'm assuming it's a favorite site
of their loved one. And without thinking, they deposited these cremaines,
not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And what it would do what someone comes onto the
search scene to spread ashes?
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Did this really happen, Nate Eaton, It did happen.
Speaker 7 (23:13):
It did happen someone unbeknownst that this child was missing.
It was a reservoir that their family member loved to
go to. They went up dumped the cremaines in the reservoir. That's,
of course, when the dog the dogs picked up a scent.
There was human cremaines, and so we were up there
when they were searching that reservoir. It's divers for several
(23:35):
days were under the water, and that's when this person
that dumped the cremaines came forward and said, actually, the
dogs might be getting this sort of scent, and unfortunately
they never found do your in that reservoir?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So do your Based on everything Nate and David are
telling us, was not in the creek.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
He was not in the reservoir.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
These people came upon a crime scene and throw out
human remains, cremated remains, which throws the search into chaos
with the scent dogs, but then another dead end listen.
Speaker 13 (24:15):
Two days after Dior's disappearance, Lemi County Sheriffs receive a
tip from amm And, Idaho, some one hundred and twenty
miles away. The collar is a Walmart employee who sold
a man several boxes of diapers. The man was towing
along a blonde, hazel eyed todd boy. Police identify the
man's vehicle from surveillance footage, but when they track him down,
the toddler is not. Dior. Frustrated by the dead end,
(24:36):
Sheriff Lynn Bauerman comments, every two and a half year
old with blonde hair looks just like Dior.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Straight back to you, Nate, and then I'll bring in
David Penury, doctor Kilaschewski, and doctor Gorniak. Nate Aton a
false sighting. Now, I don't blame the people that called
it in. They're trying to help, but it really skewers
the timeline here. Resources go to that down and it's
a dead end. But the real focus should be where
(25:06):
do your went missing?
Speaker 14 (25:07):
Right?
Speaker 15 (25:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (25:08):
Police rushed to that Walmart. We went down there and
they pulled the surveillance footage. They were able to track
that guy in a nearby town. They went to his house,
cleared him right away. He had nothing to do with
the case. There was another sighting Nancy at a hotel
in California, have a beautiful little boy that looked just
like yours. I guess the good thing is that people
were alert and paying attention to the fact that he
(25:30):
was missing. Turns out that case was not related to
this one. But yeah, I mean, it does divert resources
away from the fact.
Speaker 10 (25:38):
That he's still missing.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
It's at this juncture, the search gets turned on its
ear listen.
Speaker 13 (25:56):
Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Coons tell investigators just after breakfast
they take Deor with them on a gas run to
fill up Kuhon's diesel truck. The stage shop doesn't sell
diesel and the station two doors down is out of gas.
The family finally finds diesel at Peterson's Welding, then returns
to the stage shop for a few supplies and snacks,
specifically French fries for York. The couple has receipts for
(26:18):
the gas and snacks, but everyone who was at the
stores at the time only remembers a couple coming in.
They did not see a child.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Back to David Marshburne, the Kon's finally family, private investigator
and director of investigations at Search for Me Foundation, former
bounty hunter. Jessica Mitchell and Vernald Koon's tail investigators. After breakfast,
they take to Yor with them on a gas run
(26:47):
to fill up the diesel truck now number one. The
stage shop doesn't sell diesel and the station two doors
down was out of diesel gas. The family finally finds
diesel at Peterson's Welding and then returned back to the
(27:07):
stage shop for supplies and snacks, French fies for Dior.
They've got the receipts for gas and snacks. Nobody at
the store sees a child with them. Now, let me
understand something. This is where the facts seem to diverge
from me. I thought Dior was back with the grandpa
(27:30):
and that's where he gets lost. Now I'm hearing that
he goes to get snacks and gas. Now back to
the truism. It's my dauty to make all witness to
speak the truth. Did these two things happen at two
different times?
Speaker 8 (27:45):
What happened is once they got breakfast everything, the mom
and dad took the child and they went into town
to get diesel fuel. And then when they come back
is when the grandpa watches the child.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Okay, I'm glad I suss that out with you. So
that's true. Now these people to Doctor Jeff Kelishevski joining me.
A forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides. You can find
him on YouTube. Doctor Jeff Kelishevski, forensic psychologist. Got a
(28:23):
question for you, Doctor Jeff Kelishevsky. Doctor Jeff many people,
legal eagles and others have attacked those citizens that come
forward with a siding sightings that are dead ends that
are not door. Also the people at the gas station
(28:43):
and the stage shop, they have been attacked.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Claiming they're slowing down the investigation.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
For all I know, these people in the stage shop
just didn't see deyor there's no indication he was left
out in the truck.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
That didn't happen.
Speaker 16 (29:01):
So what's your response, Well, I think what's important is
particularly missing cases situations that law enforcement and anyone involved
gather as much information as they can. As you know,
interviewing witnesses, sometimes you have a witness's perception, sometimes you
have what they're willing to tell you, and you have
(29:23):
to compare that to what's in the environment of the
potential crime scene and look at the logistics how do
people move within that crime scene. So gathering all the information,
looking to see what lines up and what doesn't line up,
and that sort of sets a stage for your next
(29:44):
inquiry or set of questions is important. So the more
information the better. You can always rule out things as
a misperception, as a mistake. But what you need to
do is take all that information find where there's consistencies
where things are plausible and where things are maybe not plausible,
rule those out and that leads to your next inquiry.
Speaker 12 (30:08):
Retired US Marshall Frank Hilt volunteers to help the family
find Deorilt puts up personal savings for a reward, and
dedicates all of his time to the case. A month later,
Veilt terminates his working relationship with Vernal Kons and Jessica Mitchell.
Gilt explains his reasoning in a letter to the parents. Quote,
I told both of you that if I felt you
were not telling the truth, stalling me or otherwise misleading me,
(30:31):
that I would withdraw from the investigation. Both of you
lied and misrepresented the true facts that could solve the
mystery of your missing son.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
David Marshburne, the Kons family private investigator and director of
Search for Me Foundation. This guy voluntarily joins the search,
puts some money for a reward, and then drops out
because he believes the father and girlfriend are line.
Speaker 8 (30:56):
Yes, ma'am, but you have to look at the situation.
Built respectable man, good at what he did. He came
from a US Marshall background which he went after abducted
children by the opposite parent. He seemed to get tunnel
vision about Jessica adopting the child out behind Bernald's back,
(31:19):
and because they refused to take a reward for the child,
he even got even stronger about his belief that they
gave the child up for adoption. Either Jessica did it
without Bernal's acknowledgment, or they both did it. But the
parents were told by the FBI when they sepped in
(31:41):
not to give out any type of reward because it
could lead to a lot more false leads, and they
wanted to spend more of their time at the campsite
in the general area.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Okay, so that could be. That could be murky as
to why he really left. But then there is another
PI listen.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
After Frank Viilt removes himself from the investigation, the parents
turned to another private investigator, Philip Klein, takes on the
case and is hopeful that he will find little Dior,
But Klein quickly runs into the same issues Viilt did.
Klein says the couple's story frequently changes and their timeline
of events crumbles under scrutiny.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Joining me right now is a renowned attorney, Penrie Trammel,
civil litigator, former prosecutor in Oregon and Idaho. You can
find her at Smith Malik dot com.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Pandri, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
There's a reason polygraphs don't come into court. Many people argue,
like fingerprints, that was contested once too, but now it
comes into court. But here we've got five polygraphs where
Vernald Coots fails. He even fails the control question. Are
(32:57):
you going to tell us the truth today?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I mean, yes, bad panjury, it is bad.
Speaker 14 (33:02):
You know, yes, those polygraphs don't come into court based
on some of the science behind them. But when you're
looking at five failed polygraphs, there is reason for concern there,
especially when you fail that very first question penjury travel.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I'm sure encountered lie detector tests polygraphs, but again, both
of these people in tandem are failing multiple polygraphs. It's
bad enough if one fails, but remember these two were together.
When di Yor goes missing. This is not a good sign. Pandry.
(33:35):
Now you've handled a lot of domestic and custody cases
that go south.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
What's your analysis?
Speaker 14 (33:42):
Sure, So when we're looking at these polygraphs that are
getting completely inconsistent, especially with two people that were at
the same crime scene seeing the same things. We're looking at,
where's the consistency, where's the corroboration, you know, where are
those things that are lining up, and where are they
diverging and are those on key factors?
Speaker 16 (34:01):
Right?
Speaker 14 (34:01):
If we're looking at divergence on key factors or they
can't keep it straight, that's when we start looking at
those key factors and seeing what went left.
Speaker 8 (34:09):
Bernald did not take five polygraphs. He took two. He
did inconclusive pass on each one. Jessica Mitchell did two
live detector tests. It come in conclusive pass. And the
reason why it did that in the in the FBI
agent actually told them the reason why it was in
(34:30):
conclusive pass was because of the stress that they were
going through of losing a child.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Join me right now, a renowned medical examiner, doctor Jen Gorniac,
who has been waiting patiently, dtr Gorniac, former medical examiner
in Clark County. That's Vegas Board certified pathologist, doctor Gorniac.
We know that Dior Kuntz went on that trip. We
(34:57):
know it's very heavy terrain. We are convinced he never
made it into the water, which means either he got lost,
and that would it expanse or he was kidnapped? Question
to you, The most obvious answer is he's lost in
the expanse, either killed or got lost on his own,
(35:22):
doctor Gorniac. If his remains were found, now, would he
be identifiable at.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
This point in time?
Speaker 10 (35:30):
Baby, do you?
Speaker 15 (35:31):
Or would not be identifiable? Unfortunately, I looked up the
weather at that time.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
It's in July.
Speaker 15 (35:39):
It's in the eighties, and for a little kid, it
will take less than a few hours for them to
start to decompose. So twenty four hours later he would
start to be decomposing. And like one of your other
guests says, there's probably animals out in the in the
in the brush and will probably got to by but
(36:00):
these years later, they're probably he's probably skeletonized, completely skeletonized.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
If he's found.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Though, even if his remains are simply skeletons, couldn't we
still tell that it was a human child?
Speaker 15 (36:15):
Yes, you would then have to employ an anthropologist, a
frontic anthropologist who can look at the bones and take
measurements and determine the sex and the height of the
child depending on teeth. Not sure if he had went
to the dentist, but probably at that time he didn't
have any cavities or fillings in his teeth that would
(36:35):
be able to identify him. But had he had some
X rays of his teeth, of his skull at some point,
then would be able to do it. I'm not sure
there'll be any bone marrow left to do DNA. It'd
be very difficult. In a case like this. It would
probably come down to circumstantial saying that based on the
information and the circumstances, we can't do it scientifically fingerprints, DNA, dentist,
(37:04):
so we would have to say circumstantially this is probably.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Dear doctor Gorniac.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I can't think of any way if his remains are
there that he would not be skeletonized.
Speaker 15 (37:16):
Correct, you would be skeletonized. But this case, as a
forensic pathologist, I have so many of the questions. So
our job as a friend of pathologist, besides causing man
or death identification of the body is to prove or
disprove the circumstances. I can't imagine any of these scenarios
where you're not going to hear a child scream, cry,
(37:38):
any other noises that the grandfather or the friend of
the grandfather would have heard. So let's just say a
big bird came down, you would have heard something. I'm
not sure that a two year old would just be silent.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Pendri Trammel with US renowned civil litigator and former criminal
prosecutor at Smith Malik dot com. Pendrey, in a case
like this, if his remains are found, it would be
very difficult to prove or disprove that he was murdered
(38:11):
unless his remains have been buried or secreted in some way.
Speaker 14 (38:17):
Sure, I think that would be again that circumstantial evidence
that doctor Gorniac was talking about.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
You're looking at what's.
Speaker 14 (38:23):
Surrounding where you find, unfortunately, the child's remains.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
At that point, the other thing you'd.
Speaker 14 (38:29):
Be looking at is is there anybody.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Else that's gone missing in that area?
Speaker 14 (38:33):
Are we ruling out other potential children that have gone missing?
You have to look at the entire picture and kind
of put those circumstantial pieces together too.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
David Marshburn joining us se Kun's Family Private Investigator Directorate
Search for Me Foundation. David, what do you think happened?
Speaker 8 (38:53):
I do believe there was foul play involved. I do
not believe the parents were involved in that.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Where is Dior Coons.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Do you know how much money, how many thousands, how
many tens of thousands of dollars many people in this
country would pay to get a little child like deor
he could be anywhere. If you know or think you
know anything about the disappearance of this child, please dial
(39:27):
the tip line to zero eight seven five six eight
nine eight zero two zero eight seven five six eight
nine eight zero. We wait for justice to unfold and
the search of Totboy Diyor Coons.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
And now we.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Stopped to remember an American hero Officer, Brandon Paul Astorf
of Base Saint Louis Police Department in Mississippi, just twenty three,
shot and killed in the line of duty, Survived by
a grieving mother and father Nan also in law enforcement,
(40:11):
siblings Lily, Sophia, Jordana, Chloe, and Andrew. American hero Officer
Brandon Paul Estorf. Thank you to all of our guests
for joining us in the search for Door, but especially
to you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Nancy Gray signing off, good bye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.