September 2, 2025 • 49 mins
Bryan Kohberger attended Washington State University for a little over three months, and in that time, 13 complaints were filed about his bad behavior.
The complaints related to the nature of being homophobic, ableist, xenophobic, and misogynistic. Kohberger was just days into his first semester of the doctoral program when administrators received their first formal complaint; 12 more came over the next three months, according to newly unsealed documents. Included in the release are photos of the apartment Kohberger left behind in Pullman. The photos are filled with textbooks, graded papers, and a refrigerator partially full of food.
The families of Madison Mogen and Ethan Chapin are suing the city of Moscow over the
release of hundreds of these crime scene photos and videos of the first response to 1122 King Road.
Their attorney claims many of the photos constitute an “unwarranted invasion of privacy.”
Leander James says ‘blurring’ on the images is an ‘ineffective’ redaction, and blood is still
visible on floors and walls of the home outside the blurring. James says in the footage, the
Sounds of sobbing friends and roommates are also incredibly traumatizing for the families.
We are also learning that the witnesses and the individuals whom Kohberger's attorney planned to intimate as suspects are getting threats.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Philip Dubé - Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy; X: PhilipCDube, IG: PhilipDube, YouTube: PhilipDube3922
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," and featured in hit show "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensics
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, and Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
- Sydney Sumner - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Did Washington State University know Brian Coburger was a dangerous threat?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Were there fiery red.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Flags of alarm that they chose to ignore? Would he
have been kicked out and home to mommy and daddy
in the Poconos and these murders would never have happened
if Washington State University had acted this. As photos of
the killer's bleak apartment are revealed, what clues did he
(00:42):
leave behind?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
And believe it or.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Not, witnesses are getting death threats as the victims' families
in anguish as vile images of their children in death
are being released. Oh e double l n oh, I
(01:04):
mean as he Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want
to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Location of emergency.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Scream and she ran un stairs because she saw someone.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She someone's here
and she's screaming.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Just a random series.
Speaker 6 (01:26):
Did you kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Xana
cernodle Ethan Chapin.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes. At this our family members still holding out hope
that the Feds will swoop in and seek the death
penalty on Brian Coburger. Is it possible, And what about
the fact that he was leaving a trail a mile
wide red flags of alarm to Washington State University that
Brian Coburger was a danger. Will listen to what the
(01:56):
Gonsalvice family has to say. Find it really interesting that
Washington State had this long history of his anti woman,
misogynist stalking behavior and did nothing.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
If he had been thrown out, he wouldn't have even
been there exactly.
Speaker 7 (02:18):
Yep.
Speaker 8 (02:19):
He should have been thrown out before he ever killed
these kids.
Speaker 9 (02:21):
That's the truth.
Speaker 8 (02:22):
If they should have set a standard and said, look,
we don't put up with this in our university. You
cross the line, you're done. It's not even our decision,
it's just your behavior. We're holding you accountable. You should
behave like this. That's the expectations in Washington State University.
And you either do it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I can always tell when he's having a bad day,
and he looks probably the worst I've ever seen him,
and he just kind of stared at me, and there
was a newsaper sitting on the bar, and he just
kind of picked it up.
Speaker 9 (02:51):
And I was like he was him.
Speaker 8 (02:53):
He was really desperate for its engine and ways to
control people.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
That last sound from our friends ever at Crime Fix
co workers when they heard about the killings.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
They're like, it's Coburger.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's got to be Brian Coburger with me an all
star panel of guests to make sense of what we
know right now. But first to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalists
that shot to fame in her coverage of the Delphi murderers,
author of Down the heel My, descended to the double
murder in Delphi and was there for the sentencing drinking
(03:27):
in every move Coburger made, such as it was or
was not, he seemed completely oblivious to all the pain
around him, pain he had caused. But Susan Hendrix, let
me get to the issue at hand.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Washington State University.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Did you hear mister Golensolvis telling us that there had
been thirteen complaints where he would intimidate or stalk female students.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
Absolutely and that he almost or wanted to make them cry.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
That is what he did.
Speaker 7 (04:01):
He treated them completely different than the male students.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
It was signed after.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Sign after sign. To me, what did it take?
Speaker 5 (04:10):
And was that the final straw for him? When he
was finally let go.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
But you're right, complaint after a complaint, the Gonzalvez family says,
it just told.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Me something I didn't know, Susan Hendrix, that part of
the intimidation tactics on Brian Coiberger was to try and
make the girls cry.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
Yes, he seemed to enjoy what well.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 7 (04:31):
Yes, would criticize the girls more, pin them out, pointed
them out in class, and would.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Make them cry.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
It was a clear difference in that classroom, and they
complained and finally was the final straw when he was
let go. But absolutely there were signs, and we keep
hearing more and more every day.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Did nothing. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
In addition to Susan Hendrix, Doctor Bethany renounced like o
Alice out.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Of La author of deal Breakers.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
You can see her now on Peacock and you can
find her a Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Dr Bethany.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
That sounds like a fifth grade No, not even a
fifth grade, a first grade boy, kiss the girls and
make them cry, A grown man getting his PhD. One instance,
mister Golensovst told me about no is missus Gonsalvias told
me about Christy that he would standing in the doorway
where the students were trying to get into the classroom,
(05:28):
all boat up, and the girls would have to like
edge by him and their bodies, their front of their bodies,
you know what that ntails. It would have to brush
up against him. That's gross. And then Susant Hendricks telling
us that he would intentionally make the girls students cry.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Nancy, this doesn't surprise me at all because the defining
feature of psychopaths is that sexuality, cruelty, and sadism are
all commingled. They go together in some way. So making
the girls cry was probably sexually exciting for him.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Bethany, Okay, you know, even if you wear hit boots
when you walk through the saspool, you're still going to track.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
A little home on the living room carpet.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Do you ever get so saturated you track a little
bit home? Because do you hear what you're saying? That
Coburger would get sexually aroused. Oh, I don't even think
about that, over seeing girls tear up and get upset.
And how does that connect to what he did to
the victims?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Well, yeah, so what I'm saying is that seeing them
cry is like looking in their eyes and seeing pain
of some sort. And when you think about what he
might have been doing to make them cry, he was
probably gathering personal information and pushing their buttons, and that
I'm saying this is associated with sexual arousal. So these
(07:00):
women he probably had an erection while he was doing this.
And how it relates to the murders is that the
murders were really overkilled. They were statistically motivated. And if
we think of think of him stalking the women, the
university women as kind of like foreplay before he got
to the major crime, which was stabbing these students multiple times.
(07:24):
So it's like he was graduating towards increasingly sadistic acts
in order to maintain his sexual excitement.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's what we have to see.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
So had he not been incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yes, Bethany, wait till you hear this, Christy. Missus Gonsalves
and husband Steve Gonsalves are telling me about how many
complaints he had. Now, remember, doctor Bethany, he had just
gotten to pull him in Washington State University and by
Thanksgiving they say that there were already that they know
(07:59):
of teen formal complaints by women against him. What is
that September, October, part of November, in two and a
half months. What I'm saying is Washington State apparently did nothing.
They finally had meetings and discussions and blah blah blah,
(08:20):
and decided they were going to let him go. But
they released him just out into the wilderness.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Now listen to what they said, doctor Bethany.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I mean, he had thirteen in the first semester. The
first one came in August, that's the first month that
you come to school, and then twelve twelve after and
November had a huge, you know, Thanksgiving break, and then
he didn't even go the whole month of December. He
took off, like December ninth or tenth. And there's thirteen
formal complaints back, aggressive and standing doorways from what we've read,
(08:55):
and the girls would have to like walk past him
and like all right, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Joining me is justice.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Scott Morgan not only death investigator with literally thousands of
death scenes under his belt. He is a star of
hitting new series Body Bags with Joe. Scott Morgan, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, but purpose for
purposes of this discussion, Joe Scott is also professor a
forensics at Jacksonville State University.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Don't you guys have rules?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I mean, I know Jacksonville State University does, But how
many complaints do there have to be? There's thirteen formal
complaints we've been told by the gonsalvices.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
How many more were they that were just like comments?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
You know, just comments like what is wrong with him
going to complain to another faculty member or a guidance
counselor what in the world can you imagine a grown
man enjoying seeing his girls students.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Start crying and they just let it happen.
Speaker 10 (09:57):
According to reports at jack State, he would have been
out on his ear. This is my twenty first year
as a college professor, Nancy, and I got to tell you,
I'm thinking about this in a different way now that
this conversation has come out and I've got my professor
hat on right now. I think that his motivation for
(10:20):
being in an academic environment is so that he can
perpetrate upon these defenseless kids. In this environment, he is
lord and master in this environment. He can control the classroom,
He can do whatever he wants to. He can do
that dead eyed stare at people, and he is not
(10:41):
in any way an educator. Look when kids come into
my class and they're learning about forensics, I don't want
to sound like a Kumba y'ah moment, because it's not.
I want them to come in so that they can learn,
so they can go forth and be effective practitioners in
the field. That's not the environment that he created, Nancy.
If I were to compare him to something, I would
(11:04):
say this. If you know how a snapping turtle works.
They sit on the bottom of the water, their mouth
is open, and you know what, their tongue comes out
and it looks like a worm. So anything that comes
by that fish is going to attack that worm and
then they clamp down. That's what he is. That's this behavior,
and he was utilizing the university in this environment to
(11:26):
look for victims. And I think he probably would have
continued as well, you're going to have.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
To tell me the tongue and the worm part again. What.
Speaker 10 (11:33):
Yeah, snapping turtle will sit on the bottom of a
lake bed or on the bottom of a river bottom,
and they will sit there and they'll open their mouth
and their tongue looks like a worm. It'll come out
and just kind of sit in the water like this,
so if a fish comes by, they'll see it, they'll
strike at it, and when they do, the snapping turtle
clash down his jaws on them and there's your meal.
(11:53):
I've always felt like it was a reptile anyway, this
further confirms it to me as a professor.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I mean, there has to be rules that are followed.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I'm just thinking about what doctor Bethany is saying about
basically scaring the girls and making them cry and enjoying it.
And according to the Gonsolvaces, this was a pattern of behavior.
If they had kicked him out, as I think they
should have, he would have turned tail. You'd see nothing
(12:26):
but tailhole and elbows him are running home to mommy
and daddy. But no, he stayed and ended up murdering
the four students. And there's more. Listen to killing Gonsolvas's father.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
React.
Speaker 8 (12:42):
Guys should have been punched in the face. He was
a creep man. He's a disgusting creep the kind of guy.
We even heard about it from the Seven Sirens Bar
where those girls put a little note saying, hey, if
you get this credit card, watch out for this guy.
I mean, he's been doing this his whole life and
we didn't stand up to him. We need to start
standing up to these type of bully and death. No,
hopefully Idaho get it right. Hope, Hopefully the prisoner's in there,
(13:05):
they'll do the real justice.
Speaker 10 (13:06):
They they'll have like real.
Speaker 8 (13:08):
Men in there and they'll handle it the way that
he should be handled in the first place.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Are you surprised, doctor Bethany Marshall? He wasn't just terrorizing
the female students at school a lot of them thirteen
formal complaints that we know of. How many other complaints
were they that were there that were not formal, but
now we know it was discussed at bars and restaurants
(13:32):
where the female waitresses like, watch.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Out for this guy.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
He is a creep state away from him, so he
couldn't contain himself.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
It was compulsive, Nancy, and he could not stop himself. Again,
if we think of sex aggression, making women cry, dominating women,
threatening and intimidating them as all going hand in hand,
we could say, in a sense he was sexually compulsive,
that he was constantly instantly acting this out everywhere he went.
(14:02):
And Nancy, if the criminology professors told the school administration
that he was a danger. Why wouldn't they trust criminology professors.
I mean, these people are trained to spot sociopaths. And furthermore,
did you know that Brian Coberger's school office was in
(14:23):
the basement. It was it was isolated from other offices,
and because of that, students were afraid of him and
did not want to go in. So in a sense,
they served up the students like a tasty little snack
to him, which I think is just so so disgusting
and it's really disturbing.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
The emergency of the emergency. What is the rest of
the address?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Oh roads okay?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And there's a house or an apartment.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It's a house.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have
it right.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I'll talk to you guys.
Speaker 11 (15:12):
We're we live a delights so we're next to them.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I need someone to repeat the adress for raification.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
The address one one to two Kingdom.
Speaker 10 (15:23):
So many stabs, it's unbelievable, And I've written in the
document I heard that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You're gonna be okay, and you and I can call.
Speaker 11 (15:33):
Your name to thee.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
They saw some men in their house.
Speaker 10 (15:37):
A route wised to each and every one of them.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Does it never end for the victims families? Well, short answer, no,
their suffering will never end. But now they have another
fight on their hands, trying to stop vile images of
their children in death being released.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Can you imagine. I remember writing.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
My first book, Objection, and I learned about what I
call blood money, people trying to get crime scene photos.
I remember specifically people trying to get Nicole Brown OJ
Simpson's wife autopsy photos. Yes, so they could sell them.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
That fight going on.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I couldn't believe that there are ghouls out there doing that.
The family fighting tooth and now tonight to try to
stop those images. But right now I want to tell
you about just obtained photos.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And we are not not here on crime stories.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
We are not posting photos, bloody photos of these children,
these University idahost students.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That is not happening here.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I will show you weird photos of the killer, Brian
Coburger's Pullman apartment, very bleak apartment to.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Determine what, if anything, we can learn.
Speaker 12 (17:12):
Listen, new evidence photos show the bleak interior of Coberger's
Pullman apartment and WSU office. Aside from graded papers, criminology
textbooks and a few birthday cards. Coburger's apartment is largely
devoid of any personal items.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Police marked a.
Speaker 12 (17:28):
Black glove, Coburger's computer tower, a few receipts, and a
vacuum cleaner as evidence items, but found little of value
in the sparse apartment. Coberger's nearly empty home echoes his
thin social life. The admitted mass murderer had just eighteen
contacts saved in his cell phone and spoke to his
parents for hours at a time every single day.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Oh my stars.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Of course, Philip de Bay is going to join us
in just a moment to tell me how this doesn't
mean anything. But I guarantee you it would have meant
something to a jury. Did you see his bleak apartment,
Doctor Bethany Marshall, That means something.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Even his food in his freezer.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I remember a family was over, a friend of my
daughter's family was over and they're very oh my goodness, Okay, yeah, no,
that's not happening in our house. The family was over
and they were very strict on their diets and their
children's diets, and one of the children asked for, I
don't know, a juice box or something and I opened
(18:32):
up We're all standing in the kitchen. Of course, I
opened up our fridge and they literally physically react.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And they went because the fridge is.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Just crammed with leftovers and leftovers and blah. It's just
you have to dig in there. It's like an excavation
to find something.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Look at Coburger's.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I can hear Dubai in the background going, he wants
to jump in so badly. What does that mean, Bethany,
I mean, looking this fridge, there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
There's not even a piece of lint on the floor.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Oh is that an apple he's got in a zip
lock bag on the right. But you're not supposed to
put apples in the fridge, that said tofu. Yes, and
everything is hermetically sealed, and it looks like that fridge
was just cleaned out with some type of antibacterial spray.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Hit me, Bethany, well.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
This, you know, the apples in the baggy are kind
of an OCD type thing, right, being afraid of germs.
I like what the commentator said about a thin emotional life.
When you think of the traits of the sociopath as
having very shallow emotions, their lives are not rich like ours.
They don't put photos around of family members, they don't
(19:47):
collect memories of the people around them. They're not comforted
by home. If you think of what we were talking
about earlier, about the fact that he has what we
call a perophilia, So a paraphilia is constant sexual arousal
at something that is not sexual in nature, so anything
other than sex paired with attraction towards non consenting adults.
(20:11):
This is something that preoccupies Coburger. That's all he has
room for. So it's not surprising to me when you
look at his apartment that there's no sign of emotional richness,
emotional life relationships, anything other than crime and the apples
in the baggie, which are both just very compulsive. His
(20:32):
whole life is organized around his compulsion. Nancy, I don't
know what you just said. You lost me at being
sexually aroused.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
By an item not in nature, like, I don't know
what that.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
Means, noet being a paraphilia is two things. It's being
aroused by anything that is not sexual in nature, meaning
it's and also being aroused by a non consenting adult.
That means that he would not be aroused by a
woman who loves him or wants to be with him,
(21:08):
he would he would only be aroused by a woman
who's non consenting and doesn't want to be with him.
In other words, he can't gain sexual excitement by anything
other than being around people who really are not connected
to him in any way. That's what we call a perversion.
You cannot be excited by a full connection with another
(21:31):
human being who loves you back. So it creates kind
of a shallow perspective in life, and the apartment seems shallow,
like it's just there's no life there.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Special guest Chris McDonough, director cole CA's Foundation, former homicide
detective with over three hundred Oh yes, speaking of OCD,
check this out. Shoes lined up. He's staring up at
the shelf to make sure. Oh, he's cleaning the creases
in his shoe from.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
What all that mud? No, from nothing.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Chris McDonough director, Cold Case Foundation, homicide detective, over three
hundred homicides under his belt. I found him on the
Interview Room on YouTube. That's his show, Chris. When you
look at this apartment, what I'm saying is overarching theory here.
(22:36):
There were red flags, fiery red flags being.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Waved in front of everybody's face. Okay, nobody got it.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Nobody did anything, and including Washington State University. I'm calling
you out, people, But are you surprised that there were
no blood drops in his home? They got that vacuum cleaner,
you know, to do what to see if there was
any trace of the victim's hair, any fibers, even dog
(23:07):
fibers from Murphy the dog, dog hair, from anything they
could find.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
That's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
What do you see, you're the trained homicide detective. When
you look at his free key clean apartment, it gives
me the scheme just looking at.
Speaker 9 (23:23):
It, You know, Nancy, what jumps out at me is
the duality of his personality. If we look at the
room as a whole, you can tell there's that OCD
you know, part of his personality. But then you go
into his closet, look inside of his closet to the
left side that is completely disheveled, all of the receipts
(23:45):
there you go, All of that tells us a whole
other side of his personality. This tells us what the
girls were seeing. This is the hidden side. Of his life,
the secret life, as we call it. These are the
complaints that we're seeing here, not physically, but this is
his personality. It's all about control in the public persona
(24:10):
and then behind the scenes it's about violence. If you
look at the book, there's one book there the Ivory Tower,
on the floor in it that was found inside of
his chester of other items there that is about sexual
assault of college students. It's called Unsafe in the Ivory Tower.
(24:32):
If we look closely at that book all right there
to the far right, in the bottom right corner, that
book is about sexual assault about college students. Now go
do the math, right.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I'm doing it right now. I'm making a note of
everything you say. You know what's really interesting, Chris mcdunna.
And this isn't aside. This is how you prepare for trial.
You get with somebody. I try to get with somebody
that knows more than I do so you can hear
their ideas. See, I've looked at those books. I've looked
(25:04):
at the titles. But you point out a book about
sex assault in the Unsafe in the Ivory Tower, how
female coeds are sex assaulted. It's not just a coincidence.
There is no coincidence in criminal law. These are all
tutorials for Brian Koberger, but nobody put together the puzzle pieces,
(25:30):
and now four students are dead. You know, Joe Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics and a forensic expert. Joe Scott, You've been
to a million scenes and I can't explain why, but
when I would go to a crime scene, I would
want to just sit down and have everybody get out
(25:53):
of the room so I could just sit there.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
And I don't know what I was.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Looking for, but I needed it to be quiet so
I could just look and see what I could see.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And learn what I could learn, and.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Feel what I could feel in a crime saint like
Coburger's bleak apartment. And what about that computer screen, Joe
Scott remember how he quote helped his colleague. Helped his
colleague put in her Wi Fi security cams so he
could have access and watch her walk around her apartment
(26:31):
naked or half naked, or just sitting there watching TV
or making out with their boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I don't know what he was watching.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Can you imagine the hours he's spent on that computer.
Just look at the chair, look at the stark position.
You know, I'm not a shrink, but this is telling
me something. And look at the bed one pillow. I
guarantee you he makes the bed up and at night
(26:59):
just get it said on his side and leaves the
rest made up and sleeps on the one little area.
See how one side is a little messed up and
the other side isn't He just like sleeps in one
spot by his computer. I mean, there's no way that
anyone would have known all this, but we're learning all
(27:20):
this in retrospect. Washington State knew a lot, but we're
learning a lot, and none.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Of it's good. Joe Scott, No it's not.
Speaker 10 (27:30):
And listen, yeah, I can't imagine. I don't want to
imagine what he was viewing on that computer, particularly when
you think about this observable, you know, kind of track
that he was on where he goes into this woman's
apartment and tells her that he's going to assist her
with her security system. Lord only knows where that went.
(27:52):
And sitting around you know, to me, Nancy, this this
speaks to me as this guy is mission oriented and
his mission is to reak total and complete havoc. You're
showing the text here I'm wondering where his forensics text
are as well, you know, because for so long people
had kind of pushed out this idea that he is this,
(28:15):
and you know, I took great exception of this that
because he's studying criminology, that he's a forensics expert and
those two things. You can't conflate those two things. But
I would assume that he had texts relative to that
as well to help him kind of work through this
idea that I'm going to be this master criminal. He's
not trying to edify himself by studying these texts in
(28:37):
any way. He's using this. He's using this as a
means in order to understand what he needs to do
in order to get to certain points along this journey
of horror that he's on.
Speaker 11 (28:51):
For me.
Speaker 10 (28:52):
For me personally, one of the things that I would
really like to try to understand is not only what
happened in Pullman, Washington. I hope, I true hope with
everything in my being, that they're going back to the
sales Nancy, that they're taking a long look at everything
that he got involved in in Pennsylvania and see if
(29:12):
there is anything else out there that is very disturbing
where he was interacting with people. I want to know
if there's any cold cases around that proximity, because this
is something he's been thinking about for a while. And
to start off, well, yeah, four homicide, four homicides. I
just think that there's.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
He went from zero to one twenty mph overnight. Hey,
Cidy sign er, Joe Scott just says something that jogged
my memory. He says to Coburger, says to his female coworker,
let me help you.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I'm going to help you set up your WiFi.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So he could watch her naked or half naked or
cooking or whatever she's doing in her place.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Same words and echo.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I'm gonna help you. That's what he said to the
murder victim before he butchered her. Another thing that you
said earlier, Sidney Center, Sydney Summer Crime Stories.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Investigative reporter joining us that he had a thin social.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Life, as evidenced by his devices, explain.
Speaker 11 (30:29):
Well, we've learned that Brian Koberger only had eighteen contacts
saved in his phone. I cannot imagine by the twenty
seven year old when this first started, only having eighteen
people saved in your phone and most of those contacts
didn't even have names associated with them. That's what I
(30:51):
found even more odd about this that oh girl, I
went jogging with another girl, I went jogging with red hair.
So the eighteen contacts that he does have saved in
his phone, many of those are extremely impersonal, somebody who
maybe met once or twice. So it just goes to
show that he was very socially in it and speaking
(31:14):
on the phone for hours with his parents every single day.
There's evidence that he would call them and talk to
them until he fell asleep every single day, and that
is just again extremely odd for a twenty seven year
old in a PhD program.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
DoD to Mathony Marshall, I named his shrink and I
named one fast hit me well.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
The fact that he didn't have their real names in
the phone suggests that he was already trying to depersonalize
potential victims, right, I said earlier, sexual attraction only to
non consenting adults. If they become real, then he has
to relate to them. He just wants to have power
over people, and aggression is such a core part of
(31:56):
that personality. I bet he talked to his parents for
hours because that was the only place he could even
feel a semblance of an attachment, right, he probably didn't
feel attached to anybody.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Contort thing doctor Bethany to keep the phone open and
talk to your mom until you fall asleep. It's like
it's or holding onto you.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Right, Yeah, having your little binkie in your mouth exactly.
And that computer in his room, I just can't stop
looking at it and wondering what else is in there?
Are there other pictures he took of non consenting adults
in public? Like was he going into bathrooms and putting
the you know, the mirror and the camera into the
stall or you know, I would be surprised if this
(32:41):
perverse activity was just isolated to the one professor and
to the students and to the people in the bars
and restaurants. He had to have been doing it everywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's a scary thought.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I wonder if bathrooms at these restaurants and where he
worked had been checked for you know, like the tiny
cameras they need to check.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I don't know if they've thought of that yet.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Okay, joining me now, veterans trial lawyer Philip Dubay joining
us the LA jurisdiction. Okay, Dubai, I guess now you're
going to tell me that none of this amounts to
a hill of beans.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
Right, not even close.
Speaker 13 (33:21):
I mean, are you going to say that because he's
living in an austere apartment as a starving student, basically
not having a pot or a window is a foreshadow
of a quadruple homicide? I mean, I look back at
my own college days and those days we had a
beanbag chair and a lawn chair in our living room. Seriously,
(33:42):
and to suggest it because he has a quote unquote
bag of apples, that it's a sign of lowliness or
a sign of sexual fatigue or some other type of psych.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Said at all what we said, Dubai.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Look, you can do your legal analysis, your defense related
analysis through your your lens.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
But at least get it straight.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
We were talking about the sparsity of items in his
fridge and the way that things were organized neatly, and
the austerity of his apartment and the lack of any
connection to anybody another human. Did you see his mom
and dad in a frame photo by his bed, or
(34:26):
a lot of pieces of paper and memories and ticket
stubs and photos stuck to his wall with Scotch tape.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Uh huh? No, No, he's like a robot.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
He's a machine, a killing machine, and it means something,
whether you want to admit it or not, it means something.
Speaker 13 (34:43):
The guy's on the spectrum, don't you remember he has
as birds. You know what that is. It's a social
awkward news. He doesn't know how to relate to other people.
He's alienated himself. Nobody wants to be around the guy,
let alone give them their telephone number and address to
be it as a contact to his phone. That is
one of the symptoms of aspergers. They don't have a
(35:06):
social network or people in their orbit. So if you
were to look at it from afar, yeah, compared to
other healthy, able, working, assiduous college students, he stands out.
But to suggest that this is all a symptom or
a foreshadow of a quadruple homicide, that is psychobabble.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
The families of Madison Mogan and Ethan Chapin are suing
Moscow over the release of hundreds of crime scene photos
and video of the first response to eleven twenty two
King Road. Their attorney claims many of the photos constitute
an unwarned invasion of privacy. Leander James says blurring on
the images isn't effective and blood is still visible on
floors and walls, and footage sounds of sobbing friends and
(35:48):
roommates are incredibly traumatizing for the families. James argues the
crime has been extremely sensationalized and harrowing images have now
been plastered across the Internet, news channels and social media,
often for economic game.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Straight out to Susan Hendrix joining US investigative journalist on
the case. Okay, so now the family that's still dealing
with the murder, the brutal murder of their children, are
having to take on a fight.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So these vile photos are not released. Why would they
be released?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I mean somebody files a for you request freedom of information.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I so what exactly.
Speaker 7 (36:29):
Stacy Chapin, Ethan Chapin's mom and also Matty Mugen's family
filed this and said it opens a wound. This is
what Stacy said. That's not healed yet. In Dell fin Nancy,
they were sealed. Sadly, there was a leak of the
crime scene photos early on, but the autopsy sealed decision
made by Judge Frank goul and I think it should
(36:49):
be made here. But there was a hearing on this,
and the judge said that you will make a decision
down the road.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
So I hope. So, I mean, why do we have.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
To see that exactly?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I mean, I I get it that when a case
you're seeing some of the photos that have been released.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
We are not showing bloody photos.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Of the victim's blood in the crime scene the home
on King Road. The families have been through enough, not
only that, not only that, now witnesses are being threatened,
death threatened.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Listen, Judge Hipler.
Speaker 6 (37:31):
Weighing redaction, attorneys say witnesses name should remain private, as
witnesses have been threatened and stocked, hiring private security and
relocating from their homes. In particular, attorneys believe Coberger's alternate
perpetrators should be kept from the public. Hitpler asked for
the information on each intended redaction, including their roles in
the case and whether they have already been identified in
(37:52):
the media.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Okay, Sidney Sumner, Crime Story's investigative reporter, also on the
Coburger case, I take it that the well, there have
been a lot of threats on witnesses, but the witnesses
that are getting the most serious threats are the ones
that defense wanted to use as some other dude did
(38:14):
it scapegoat and they knew all along it wasn't true.
Speaker 11 (38:19):
That is correct. That is those are the witnesses that
attorneys on both sides are most concerned about getting any
kind of threat or having safety concerns with their names
being made public. And the defense at this point has
admitted that those people were never involved in this crime
(38:39):
and this was simply a defense. They were trying to
point the finger elsewhere to say it was not Brian
Coburger that committed this crime. So that has been disproven.
But we know how many people support Brian Coberger. We
saw the Reddit threads, we saw the Facebook groups trying
to prove Brian coburgers in a sense, So they want
(39:01):
to protect those people that were named in this alternate
perpetrator theory and make sure their names are not linked
to the public so no one can do anything to
put those men in harsh way.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethanie Marshall, the victims'
families call them the quote proburgers that are still going online.
I said every time I dare to look at social
media that he was framed they're actually death threatening witnesses,
(39:43):
especially threats going.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
To some other dude did it scapegoat?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
The defense came up with, knowing full well Coburger committed
the murderers. They were going to blame somebody else in
open court and it leaked out and now the scapegoats
are getting threat What is Nancy these people?
Speaker 9 (40:02):
Do?
Speaker 1 (40:02):
You know?
Speaker 5 (40:02):
Three to five percent of the general population has the
same personality disorder that Coburger has, so it's not surprising
to me that he has this huge following. Coburger probably
did what his minions or followers wish they could have
done themselves. They just don't have the courage to do it, Nancy,
(40:22):
So he's their king. They are pro Burger, and they
probably are harassing anybody who they feel is going to
bring the king down. That's just what's happening here.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, I can't stress enough the
brutality of the crime scene photos. They're worse than any
so called slice and dice video you've ever seen, except
they're real. And to re victimize these victims and you
(41:00):
a horrible death that night and their families, I mean,
I can't convey the nature of these photos, Jo Scott.
Speaker 10 (41:09):
It's very difficult to do that. Nancy, reflect back, just
for a moment. Do you remember being in pre trial
as a prosecutor and when we still had the old
format images and they would be spread out all over
the table, and you're trying to decide what you're going
to use in order to describe what happened, all right,
(41:30):
and some of these images in our circumstances, you and
I over those years ago, you think, do I really
need to show this to the jury to get the
point across because we would have to use our discernment
in order to do that. Because some of these things
are so over the top, Nancy, I can't express this
enough to the viewing public. Why do you need to
(41:53):
see them outside of court? The thing has been adjudicated
at this point in time. There is no value in this.
No one is edified by this at all. And families
are being destroyed, they're being traumatized, they're having to live
through this over and over and over again. People don't understand.
You know, you could just be one of these parents
and you could be in a store and someone would
(42:14):
have seen this on the internet and they'll say, I
can't believe what happened to your child. I actually saw
the image. Just let that sink in.
Speaker 9 (42:22):
Just check.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I can tell you one thing, Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Before I would introduce brutal photos like this, I would
absolutely clear the courtroom and warn the victims' families.
Speaker 6 (42:33):
Brian Cobert wasn't always skinny, as surviving roommate Dylan Mortenson
said in her description of the mass perp. Golberger was
quite plumped before losing one hundred and thirty pounds just
in time for his sixteenth birthday. Goberger bragged about the
weight laws and a job application, claiming his dedication to
running and boxing qualified him for the part time security
job at a school in his hometown's Pleasant Valley district.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Again, Doctor Bethany Marshall, I don't know what it means,
but it means something. Brian Cober obese then goes on
a crash diet. A crash oh my goodness, yes, okay,
a crash diet. It means something.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
If it was to lure women, what does it mean?
The body image? How does that factor into this?
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Well?
Speaker 5 (43:24):
Antisocial personality disorder, which is used interchangeably with sociopathy and psychopathy.
It causes impulsivity and disregulation, meaning that people cannot control
all of their emotions overwhelm them. So somebody who's disregulated
and impulsive is just going to eat anything that's not
nailed down. Okay, So he probably had to go into
(43:47):
this total starvation mode, vegan vegetarian mode to get the
weight off so he could predate on women. I mean,
you're right, he had to look great to lure women.
And what was this one of his first It was
as a security guard, a position of power. He was
already graduating to the next thing, which would be working
(44:08):
in an academic environment where he would have access to
women and could study criminology. So it had a dual purpose,
access to women and at the same time he was
learning and preparing for the upcoming crime.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
You know, Chris McDonough, I'm thinking through all of these
red flags, the bleak apartment, the lack of contacts, the
objectification of women he would put as a contact red hair.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I'm trying to take it all in.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
But one of the most disturbing is that Washington State University.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Knew they knew there was a big.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Problem when they heard about the Mersey's Coburger.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
They knew, but they let him stay.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
If they had fired him long before, maybe these murders
would not have happened.
Speaker 9 (45:05):
Yeah, that's a great point, Nancy. I mean, what did
they know, right did they? They obviously had a PhD
file hire and deeper on complaints about Brian Coberger. And
also if we look back into his apartment for a minute,
you know, and this is his office here. You know,
it's just such a bleak personality. But look at the
(45:26):
Look at the birthday card to the left. It's Teddy
Roosevelt on a Torontosaurus Rex. And there's a comment on
that that says, this is basically your person your egos
and your personality. You know, carry a big stick. But
make sure you know you eat them. I eat right there,
both of your egos. This is a whole whole other
(45:50):
lane for for doc to tell us about. But this
really is Brian Coberger, and other people saw it, and
WSU most definitely saw it.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Okay, DEBEI, what do you make of the Freedom of
Information Act to release these brutal photos, the judges taking
it under advisement. I don't say there's any way that
you can redact out all of that gore.
Speaker 13 (46:17):
No, And first of all, I don't even know who
would want it. I mean seriously, I mean what type
of carnography would the petitioner be into?
Speaker 1 (46:25):
The freaks?
Speaker 9 (46:26):
Yeah, gore core is what I call it.
Speaker 13 (46:28):
But make no mistake about it that just because somebody
files a petition to make these photos public doesn't mean
the court's just going to grant that petition. It's subject
to a balancing test where court has to balance the
public interest in disclosure against the privacy interests of the
next of ken.
Speaker 9 (46:49):
And if you have a situation.
Speaker 13 (46:52):
Where you can prevent trauma, preserve dignity, and prevent further
distribution of this type of carnage, of court can deny it.
There's no automatic right to this material. And frankly, I
could see somebody who's into this type of imagery further
disseminating it on the black market somewhere, maybe to share
(47:13):
in this type of gorecore, or to even propit from it.
Who in their right mind would even want this?
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah, blood money, blood money, debey, you ask who is it?
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Probably nobody that you associate with.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
It's uh, probably the same people that wanted Nicole Brown's
autopsy photos. Them, those people, and they do make money
off of it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
You know what, for once, debate for once.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
I pray that you are right and the two judges
involved in this matter will hear your voice tonight, debate
as we all join the victims families and ask the
judges please do not release these photos, these images, this
audio where you can hear crying and see what happened
(48:06):
to the victims. Please don't do this to their families.
Don't say the law compels. The law does not compel.
Doby was right. You are responsible for the release of
these photos. Judge, It's on you. As we wait for
justice two unfold, we remember an American hero Officer Darren
(48:30):
Burke's Dallas PD survived by his grieving mother, Sheri. American
hero officer Darren Burke's rest in peace officer Nancy Grace
signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Did Washington State University know Brian Coburger was a dangerous threat?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Were there fiery red.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Flags of alarm that they chose to ignore? Would he
have been kicked out and home to mommy and daddy
in the Poconos and these murders would never have happened
if Washington State University had acted this. As photos of
the killer's bleak apartment are revealed, what clues did he
(00:42):
leave behind?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
And believe it or.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Not, witnesses are getting death threats as the victims' families
in anguish as vile images of their children in death
are being released. Oh e double l n oh, I
(01:04):
mean as he Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want
to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Location of emergency.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Scream and she ran un stairs because she saw someone.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She someone's here
and she's screaming.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Just a random series.
Speaker 6 (01:26):
Did you kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Xana
cernodle Ethan Chapin.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yes. At this our family members still holding out hope
that the Feds will swoop in and seek the death
penalty on Brian Coburger. Is it possible, And what about
the fact that he was leaving a trail a mile
wide red flags of alarm to Washington State University that
Brian Coburger was a danger. Will listen to what the
(01:56):
Gonsalvice family has to say. Find it really interesting that
Washington State had this long history of his anti woman,
misogynist stalking behavior and did nothing.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
If he had been thrown out, he wouldn't have even
been there exactly.
Speaker 7 (02:18):
Yep.
Speaker 8 (02:19):
He should have been thrown out before he ever killed
these kids.
Speaker 9 (02:21):
That's the truth.
Speaker 8 (02:22):
If they should have set a standard and said, look,
we don't put up with this in our university. You
cross the line, you're done. It's not even our decision,
it's just your behavior. We're holding you accountable. You should
behave like this. That's the expectations in Washington State University.
And you either do it or you don't.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I can always tell when he's having a bad day,
and he looks probably the worst I've ever seen him,
and he just kind of stared at me, and there
was a newsaper sitting on the bar, and he just
kind of picked it up.
Speaker 9 (02:51):
And I was like he was him.
Speaker 8 (02:53):
He was really desperate for its engine and ways to
control people.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
That last sound from our friends ever at Crime Fix
co workers when they heard about the killings.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
They're like, it's Coburger.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's got to be Brian Coburger with me an all
star panel of guests to make sense of what we
know right now. But first to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalists
that shot to fame in her coverage of the Delphi murderers,
author of Down the heel My, descended to the double
murder in Delphi and was there for the sentencing drinking
(03:27):
in every move Coburger made, such as it was or
was not, he seemed completely oblivious to all the pain
around him, pain he had caused. But Susan Hendrix, let
me get to the issue at hand.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Washington State University.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Did you hear mister Golensolvis telling us that there had
been thirteen complaints where he would intimidate or stalk female students.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
Absolutely and that he almost or wanted to make them cry.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
That is what he did.
Speaker 7 (04:01):
He treated them completely different than the male students.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
It was signed after.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Sign after sign. To me, what did it take?
Speaker 5 (04:10):
And was that the final straw for him? When he
was finally let go.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
But you're right, complaint after a complaint, the Gonzalvez family says,
it just told.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Me something I didn't know, Susan Hendrix, that part of
the intimidation tactics on Brian Coiberger was to try and
make the girls cry.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
Yes, he seemed to enjoy what well.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 7 (04:31):
Yes, would criticize the girls more, pin them out, pointed
them out in class, and would.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Make them cry.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
It was a clear difference in that classroom, and they
complained and finally was the final straw when he was
let go. But absolutely there were signs, and we keep
hearing more and more every day.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Did nothing. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
In addition to Susan Hendrix, Doctor Bethany renounced like o
Alice out.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Of La author of deal Breakers.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
You can see her now on Peacock and you can
find her a Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Dr Bethany.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
That sounds like a fifth grade No, not even a
fifth grade, a first grade boy, kiss the girls and
make them cry, A grown man getting his PhD. One instance,
mister Golensovst told me about no is missus Gonsalvias told
me about Christy that he would standing in the doorway
where the students were trying to get into the classroom,
(05:28):
all boat up, and the girls would have to like
edge by him and their bodies, their front of their bodies,
you know what that ntails. It would have to brush
up against him. That's gross. And then Susant Hendricks telling
us that he would intentionally make the girls students cry.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Nancy, this doesn't surprise me at all because the defining
feature of psychopaths is that sexuality, cruelty, and sadism are
all commingled. They go together in some way. So making
the girls cry was probably sexually exciting for him.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Bethany, Okay, you know, even if you wear hit boots
when you walk through the saspool, you're still going to track.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
A little home on the living room carpet.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Do you ever get so saturated you track a little
bit home? Because do you hear what you're saying? That
Coburger would get sexually aroused. Oh, I don't even think
about that, over seeing girls tear up and get upset.
And how does that connect to what he did to
the victims?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Well, yeah, so what I'm saying is that seeing them
cry is like looking in their eyes and seeing pain
of some sort. And when you think about what he
might have been doing to make them cry, he was
probably gathering personal information and pushing their buttons, and that
I'm saying this is associated with sexual arousal. So these
(07:00):
women he probably had an erection while he was doing this.
And how it relates to the murders is that the
murders were really overkilled. They were statistically motivated. And if
we think of think of him stalking the women, the
university women as kind of like foreplay before he got
to the major crime, which was stabbing these students multiple times.
(07:24):
So it's like he was graduating towards increasingly sadistic acts
in order to maintain his sexual excitement.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's what we have to see.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
So had he not been incarcerated.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yes, Bethany, wait till you hear this, Christy. Missus Gonsalves
and husband Steve Gonsalves are telling me about how many
complaints he had. Now, remember, doctor Bethany, he had just
gotten to pull him in Washington State University and by
Thanksgiving they say that there were already that they know
(07:59):
of teen formal complaints by women against him. What is
that September, October, part of November, in two and a
half months. What I'm saying is Washington State apparently did nothing.
They finally had meetings and discussions and blah blah blah,
(08:20):
and decided they were going to let him go. But
they released him just out into the wilderness.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Now listen to what they said, doctor Bethany.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I mean, he had thirteen in the first semester. The
first one came in August, that's the first month that
you come to school, and then twelve twelve after and
November had a huge, you know, Thanksgiving break, and then
he didn't even go the whole month of December. He
took off, like December ninth or tenth. And there's thirteen
formal complaints back, aggressive and standing doorways from what we've read,
(08:55):
and the girls would have to like walk past him
and like all right, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Joining me is justice.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Scott Morgan not only death investigator with literally thousands of
death scenes under his belt. He is a star of
hitting new series Body Bags with Joe. Scott Morgan, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, but purpose for
purposes of this discussion, Joe Scott is also professor a
forensics at Jacksonville State University.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Don't you guys have rules?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I mean, I know Jacksonville State University does, But how
many complaints do there have to be? There's thirteen formal
complaints we've been told by the gonsalvices.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
How many more were they that were just like comments?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
You know, just comments like what is wrong with him
going to complain to another faculty member or a guidance
counselor what in the world can you imagine a grown
man enjoying seeing his girls students.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Start crying and they just let it happen.
Speaker 10 (09:57):
According to reports at jack State, he would have been
out on his ear. This is my twenty first year
as a college professor, Nancy, and I got to tell you,
I'm thinking about this in a different way now that
this conversation has come out and I've got my professor
hat on right now. I think that his motivation for
(10:20):
being in an academic environment is so that he can
perpetrate upon these defenseless kids. In this environment, he is
lord and master in this environment. He can control the classroom,
He can do whatever he wants to. He can do
that dead eyed stare at people, and he is not
(10:41):
in any way an educator. Look when kids come into
my class and they're learning about forensics, I don't want
to sound like a Kumba y'ah moment, because it's not.
I want them to come in so that they can learn,
so they can go forth and be effective practitioners in
the field. That's not the environment that he created, Nancy.
If I were to compare him to something, I would
(11:04):
say this. If you know how a snapping turtle works.
They sit on the bottom of the water, their mouth
is open, and you know what, their tongue comes out
and it looks like a worm. So anything that comes
by that fish is going to attack that worm and
then they clamp down. That's what he is. That's this behavior,
and he was utilizing the university in this environment to
(11:26):
look for victims. And I think he probably would have
continued as well, you're going to have.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
To tell me the tongue and the worm part again. What.
Speaker 10 (11:33):
Yeah, snapping turtle will sit on the bottom of a
lake bed or on the bottom of a river bottom,
and they will sit there and they'll open their mouth
and their tongue looks like a worm. It'll come out
and just kind of sit in the water like this,
so if a fish comes by, they'll see it, they'll
strike at it, and when they do, the snapping turtle
clash down his jaws on them and there's your meal.
(11:53):
I've always felt like it was a reptile anyway, this
further confirms it to me as a professor.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I mean, there has to be rules that are followed.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I'm just thinking about what doctor Bethany is saying about
basically scaring the girls and making them cry and enjoying it.
And according to the Gonsolvaces, this was a pattern of behavior.
If they had kicked him out, as I think they
should have, he would have turned tail. You'd see nothing
(12:26):
but tailhole and elbows him are running home to mommy
and daddy. But no, he stayed and ended up murdering
the four students. And there's more. Listen to killing Gonsolvas's father.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
React.
Speaker 8 (12:42):
Guys should have been punched in the face. He was
a creep man. He's a disgusting creep the kind of guy.
We even heard about it from the Seven Sirens Bar
where those girls put a little note saying, hey, if
you get this credit card, watch out for this guy.
I mean, he's been doing this his whole life and
we didn't stand up to him. We need to start
standing up to these type of bully and death. No,
hopefully Idaho get it right. Hope, Hopefully the prisoner's in there,
(13:05):
they'll do the real justice.
Speaker 10 (13:06):
They they'll have like real.
Speaker 8 (13:08):
Men in there and they'll handle it the way that
he should be handled in the first place.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Are you surprised, doctor Bethany Marshall? He wasn't just terrorizing
the female students at school a lot of them thirteen
formal complaints that we know of. How many other complaints
were they that were there that were not formal, but
now we know it was discussed at bars and restaurants
(13:32):
where the female waitresses like, watch.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Out for this guy.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
He is a creep state away from him, so he
couldn't contain himself.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
It was compulsive, Nancy, and he could not stop himself. Again,
if we think of sex aggression, making women cry, dominating women,
threatening and intimidating them as all going hand in hand,
we could say, in a sense he was sexually compulsive,
that he was constantly instantly acting this out everywhere he went.
(14:02):
And Nancy, if the criminology professors told the school administration
that he was a danger. Why wouldn't they trust criminology professors.
I mean, these people are trained to spot sociopaths. And furthermore,
did you know that Brian Coberger's school office was in
(14:23):
the basement. It was it was isolated from other offices,
and because of that, students were afraid of him and
did not want to go in. So in a sense,
they served up the students like a tasty little snack
to him, which I think is just so so disgusting
and it's really disturbing.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
The emergency of the emergency. What is the rest of
the address?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Oh roads okay?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And there's a house or an apartment.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It's a house.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have
it right.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I'll talk to you guys.
Speaker 11 (15:12):
We're we live a delights so we're next to them.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I need someone to repeat the adress for raification.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
The address one one to two Kingdom.
Speaker 10 (15:23):
So many stabs, it's unbelievable, And I've written in the
document I heard that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You're gonna be okay, and you and I can call.
Speaker 11 (15:33):
Your name to thee.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
They saw some men in their house.
Speaker 10 (15:37):
A route wised to each and every one of them.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Does it never end for the victims families? Well, short answer, no,
their suffering will never end. But now they have another
fight on their hands, trying to stop vile images of
their children in death being released.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Can you imagine. I remember writing.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
My first book, Objection, and I learned about what I
call blood money, people trying to get crime scene photos.
I remember specifically people trying to get Nicole Brown OJ
Simpson's wife autopsy photos. Yes, so they could sell them.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
That fight going on.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I couldn't believe that there are ghouls out there doing that.
The family fighting tooth and now tonight to try to
stop those images. But right now I want to tell
you about just obtained photos.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And we are not not here on crime stories.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
We are not posting photos, bloody photos of these children,
these University idahost students.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That is not happening here.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I will show you weird photos of the killer, Brian
Coburger's Pullman apartment, very bleak apartment to.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Determine what, if anything, we can learn.
Speaker 12 (17:12):
Listen, new evidence photos show the bleak interior of Coberger's
Pullman apartment and WSU office. Aside from graded papers, criminology
textbooks and a few birthday cards. Coburger's apartment is largely
devoid of any personal items.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Police marked a.
Speaker 12 (17:28):
Black glove, Coburger's computer tower, a few receipts, and a
vacuum cleaner as evidence items, but found little of value
in the sparse apartment. Coberger's nearly empty home echoes his
thin social life. The admitted mass murderer had just eighteen
contacts saved in his cell phone and spoke to his
parents for hours at a time every single day.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Oh my stars.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Of course, Philip de Bay is going to join us
in just a moment to tell me how this doesn't
mean anything. But I guarantee you it would have meant
something to a jury. Did you see his bleak apartment,
Doctor Bethany Marshall, That means something.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Even his food in his freezer.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I remember a family was over, a friend of my
daughter's family was over and they're very oh my goodness, Okay, yeah, no,
that's not happening in our house. The family was over
and they were very strict on their diets and their
children's diets, and one of the children asked for, I
don't know, a juice box or something and I opened
(18:32):
up We're all standing in the kitchen. Of course, I
opened up our fridge and they literally physically react.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And they went because the fridge is.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Just crammed with leftovers and leftovers and blah. It's just
you have to dig in there. It's like an excavation
to find something.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Look at Coburger's.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I can hear Dubai in the background going, he wants
to jump in so badly. What does that mean, Bethany,
I mean, looking this fridge, there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
There's not even a piece of lint on the floor.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Oh is that an apple he's got in a zip
lock bag on the right. But you're not supposed to
put apples in the fridge, that said tofu. Yes, and
everything is hermetically sealed, and it looks like that fridge
was just cleaned out with some type of antibacterial spray.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Hit me, Bethany, well.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
This, you know, the apples in the baggy are kind
of an OCD type thing, right, being afraid of germs.
I like what the commentator said about a thin emotional life.
When you think of the traits of the sociopath as
having very shallow emotions, their lives are not rich like ours.
They don't put photos around of family members, they don't
(19:47):
collect memories of the people around them. They're not comforted
by home. If you think of what we were talking
about earlier, about the fact that he has what we
call a perophilia, So a paraphilia is constant sexual arousal
at something that is not sexual in nature, so anything
other than sex paired with attraction towards non consenting adults.
(20:11):
This is something that preoccupies Coburger. That's all he has
room for. So it's not surprising to me when you
look at his apartment that there's no sign of emotional richness,
emotional life relationships, anything other than crime and the apples
in the baggie, which are both just very compulsive. His
(20:32):
whole life is organized around his compulsion. Nancy, I don't
know what you just said. You lost me at being
sexually aroused.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
By an item not in nature, like, I don't know
what that.
Speaker 5 (20:44):
Means, noet being a paraphilia is two things. It's being
aroused by anything that is not sexual in nature, meaning
it's and also being aroused by a non consenting adult.
That means that he would not be aroused by a
woman who loves him or wants to be with him,
(21:08):
he would he would only be aroused by a woman
who's non consenting and doesn't want to be with him.
In other words, he can't gain sexual excitement by anything
other than being around people who really are not connected
to him in any way. That's what we call a perversion.
You cannot be excited by a full connection with another
(21:31):
human being who loves you back. So it creates kind
of a shallow perspective in life, and the apartment seems shallow,
like it's just there's no life there.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Special guest Chris McDonough, director cole CA's Foundation, former homicide
detective with over three hundred Oh yes, speaking of OCD,
check this out. Shoes lined up. He's staring up at
the shelf to make sure. Oh, he's cleaning the creases
in his shoe from.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
What all that mud? No, from nothing.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Chris McDonough director, Cold Case Foundation, homicide detective, over three
hundred homicides under his belt. I found him on the
Interview Room on YouTube. That's his show, Chris. When you
look at this apartment, what I'm saying is overarching theory here.
(22:36):
There were red flags, fiery red flags being.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Waved in front of everybody's face. Okay, nobody got it.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Nobody did anything, and including Washington State University. I'm calling
you out, people, But are you surprised that there were
no blood drops in his home? They got that vacuum cleaner,
you know, to do what to see if there was
any trace of the victim's hair, any fibers, even dog
(23:07):
fibers from Murphy the dog, dog hair, from anything they
could find.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
That's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
What do you see, you're the trained homicide detective. When
you look at his free key clean apartment, it gives
me the scheme just looking at.
Speaker 9 (23:23):
It, You know, Nancy, what jumps out at me is
the duality of his personality. If we look at the
room as a whole, you can tell there's that OCD
you know, part of his personality. But then you go
into his closet, look inside of his closet to the
left side that is completely disheveled, all of the receipts
(23:45):
there you go, All of that tells us a whole
other side of his personality. This tells us what the
girls were seeing. This is the hidden side. Of his life,
the secret life, as we call it. These are the
complaints that we're seeing here, not physically, but this is
his personality. It's all about control in the public persona
(24:10):
and then behind the scenes it's about violence. If you
look at the book, there's one book there the Ivory Tower,
on the floor in it that was found inside of
his chester of other items there that is about sexual
assault of college students. It's called Unsafe in the Ivory Tower.
(24:32):
If we look closely at that book all right there
to the far right, in the bottom right corner, that
book is about sexual assault about college students. Now go
do the math, right.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I'm doing it right now. I'm making a note of
everything you say. You know what's really interesting, Chris mcdunna.
And this isn't aside. This is how you prepare for trial.
You get with somebody. I try to get with somebody
that knows more than I do so you can hear
their ideas. See, I've looked at those books. I've looked
(25:04):
at the titles. But you point out a book about
sex assault in the Unsafe in the Ivory Tower, how
female coeds are sex assaulted. It's not just a coincidence.
There is no coincidence in criminal law. These are all
tutorials for Brian Koberger, but nobody put together the puzzle pieces,
(25:30):
and now four students are dead. You know, Joe Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics and a forensic expert. Joe Scott, You've been
to a million scenes and I can't explain why, but
when I would go to a crime scene, I would
want to just sit down and have everybody get out
(25:53):
of the room so I could just sit there.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
And I don't know what I was.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Looking for, but I needed it to be quiet so
I could just look and see what I could see.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And learn what I could learn, and.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Feel what I could feel in a crime saint like
Coburger's bleak apartment. And what about that computer screen, Joe
Scott remember how he quote helped his colleague. Helped his
colleague put in her Wi Fi security cams so he
could have access and watch her walk around her apartment
(26:31):
naked or half naked, or just sitting there watching TV
or making out with their boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I don't know what he was watching.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Can you imagine the hours he's spent on that computer.
Just look at the chair, look at the stark position.
You know, I'm not a shrink, but this is telling
me something. And look at the bed one pillow. I
guarantee you he makes the bed up and at night
(26:59):
just get it said on his side and leaves the
rest made up and sleeps on the one little area.
See how one side is a little messed up and
the other side isn't He just like sleeps in one
spot by his computer. I mean, there's no way that
anyone would have known all this, but we're learning all
(27:20):
this in retrospect. Washington State knew a lot, but we're
learning a lot, and none.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Of it's good. Joe Scott, No it's not.
Speaker 10 (27:30):
And listen, yeah, I can't imagine. I don't want to
imagine what he was viewing on that computer, particularly when
you think about this observable, you know, kind of track
that he was on where he goes into this woman's
apartment and tells her that he's going to assist her
with her security system. Lord only knows where that went.
(27:52):
And sitting around you know, to me, Nancy, this this
speaks to me as this guy is mission oriented and
his mission is to reak total and complete havoc. You're
showing the text here I'm wondering where his forensics text
are as well, you know, because for so long people
had kind of pushed out this idea that he is this,
(28:15):
and you know, I took great exception of this that
because he's studying criminology, that he's a forensics expert and
those two things. You can't conflate those two things. But
I would assume that he had texts relative to that
as well to help him kind of work through this
idea that I'm going to be this master criminal. He's
not trying to edify himself by studying these texts in
(28:37):
any way. He's using this. He's using this as a
means in order to understand what he needs to do
in order to get to certain points along this journey
of horror that he's on.
Speaker 11 (28:51):
For me.
Speaker 10 (28:52):
For me personally, one of the things that I would
really like to try to understand is not only what
happened in Pullman, Washington. I hope, I true hope with
everything in my being, that they're going back to the
sales Nancy, that they're taking a long look at everything
that he got involved in in Pennsylvania and see if
(29:12):
there is anything else out there that is very disturbing
where he was interacting with people. I want to know
if there's any cold cases around that proximity, because this
is something he's been thinking about for a while. And
to start off, well, yeah, four homicide, four homicides. I
just think that there's.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
He went from zero to one twenty mph overnight. Hey,
Cidy sign er, Joe Scott just says something that jogged
my memory. He says to Coburger, says to his female coworker,
let me help you.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I'm going to help you set up your WiFi.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So he could watch her naked or half naked or
cooking or whatever she's doing in her place.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Same words and echo.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I'm gonna help you. That's what he said to the
murder victim before he butchered her. Another thing that you
said earlier, Sidney Center, Sydney Summer Crime Stories.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Investigative reporter joining us that he had a thin social.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Life, as evidenced by his devices, explain.
Speaker 11 (30:29):
Well, we've learned that Brian Koberger only had eighteen contacts
saved in his phone. I cannot imagine by the twenty
seven year old when this first started, only having eighteen
people saved in your phone and most of those contacts
didn't even have names associated with them. That's what I
(30:51):
found even more odd about this that oh girl, I
went jogging with another girl, I went jogging with red hair.
So the eighteen contacts that he does have saved in
his phone, many of those are extremely impersonal, somebody who
maybe met once or twice. So it just goes to
show that he was very socially in it and speaking
(31:14):
on the phone for hours with his parents every single day.
There's evidence that he would call them and talk to
them until he fell asleep every single day, and that
is just again extremely odd for a twenty seven year
old in a PhD program.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
DoD to Mathony Marshall, I named his shrink and I
named one fast hit me well.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
The fact that he didn't have their real names in
the phone suggests that he was already trying to depersonalize
potential victims, right, I said earlier, sexual attraction only to
non consenting adults. If they become real, then he has
to relate to them. He just wants to have power
over people, and aggression is such a core part of
(31:56):
that personality. I bet he talked to his parents for
hours because that was the only place he could even
feel a semblance of an attachment, right, he probably didn't
feel attached to anybody.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Contort thing doctor Bethany to keep the phone open and
talk to your mom until you fall asleep. It's like
it's or holding onto you.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Right, Yeah, having your little binkie in your mouth exactly.
And that computer in his room, I just can't stop
looking at it and wondering what else is in there?
Are there other pictures he took of non consenting adults
in public? Like was he going into bathrooms and putting
the you know, the mirror and the camera into the
stall or you know, I would be surprised if this
(32:41):
perverse activity was just isolated to the one professor and
to the students and to the people in the bars
and restaurants. He had to have been doing it everywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's a scary thought.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I wonder if bathrooms at these restaurants and where he
worked had been checked for you know, like the tiny
cameras they need to check.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I don't know if they've thought of that yet.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Okay, joining me now, veterans trial lawyer Philip Dubay joining
us the LA jurisdiction. Okay, Dubai, I guess now you're
going to tell me that none of this amounts to
a hill of beans.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
Right, not even close.
Speaker 13 (33:21):
I mean, are you going to say that because he's
living in an austere apartment as a starving student, basically
not having a pot or a window is a foreshadow
of a quadruple homicide? I mean, I look back at
my own college days and those days we had a
beanbag chair and a lawn chair in our living room. Seriously,
(33:42):
and to suggest it because he has a quote unquote
bag of apples, that it's a sign of lowliness or
a sign of sexual fatigue or some other type of psych.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Said at all what we said, Dubai.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Look, you can do your legal analysis, your defense related
analysis through your your lens.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
But at least get it straight.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
We were talking about the sparsity of items in his
fridge and the way that things were organized neatly, and
the austerity of his apartment and the lack of any
connection to anybody another human. Did you see his mom
and dad in a frame photo by his bed, or
(34:26):
a lot of pieces of paper and memories and ticket
stubs and photos stuck to his wall with Scotch tape.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Uh huh? No, No, he's like a robot.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
He's a machine, a killing machine, and it means something,
whether you want to admit it or not, it means something.
Speaker 13 (34:43):
The guy's on the spectrum, don't you remember he has
as birds. You know what that is. It's a social
awkward news. He doesn't know how to relate to other people.
He's alienated himself. Nobody wants to be around the guy,
let alone give them their telephone number and address to
be it as a contact to his phone. That is
one of the symptoms of aspergers. They don't have a
(35:06):
social network or people in their orbit. So if you
were to look at it from afar, yeah, compared to
other healthy, able, working, assiduous college students, he stands out.
But to suggest that this is all a symptom or
a foreshadow of a quadruple homicide, that is psychobabble.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
The families of Madison Mogan and Ethan Chapin are suing
Moscow over the release of hundreds of crime scene photos
and video of the first response to eleven twenty two
King Road. Their attorney claims many of the photos constitute
an unwarned invasion of privacy. Leander James says blurring on
the images isn't effective and blood is still visible on
floors and walls, and footage sounds of sobbing friends and
(35:48):
roommates are incredibly traumatizing for the families. James argues the
crime has been extremely sensationalized and harrowing images have now
been plastered across the Internet, news channels and social media,
often for economic game.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Straight out to Susan Hendrix joining US investigative journalist on
the case. Okay, so now the family that's still dealing
with the murder, the brutal murder of their children, are
having to take on a fight.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So these vile photos are not released. Why would they
be released?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I mean somebody files a for you request freedom of information.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I so what exactly.
Speaker 7 (36:29):
Stacy Chapin, Ethan Chapin's mom and also Matty Mugen's family
filed this and said it opens a wound. This is
what Stacy said. That's not healed yet. In Dell fin Nancy,
they were sealed. Sadly, there was a leak of the
crime scene photos early on, but the autopsy sealed decision
made by Judge Frank goul and I think it should
(36:49):
be made here. But there was a hearing on this,
and the judge said that you will make a decision
down the road.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
So I hope. So, I mean, why do we have.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
To see that exactly?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I mean, I I get it that when a case
you're seeing some of the photos that have been released.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
We are not showing bloody photos.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Of the victim's blood in the crime scene the home
on King Road. The families have been through enough, not
only that, not only that, now witnesses are being threatened,
death threatened.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Listen, Judge Hipler.
Speaker 6 (37:31):
Weighing redaction, attorneys say witnesses name should remain private, as
witnesses have been threatened and stocked, hiring private security and
relocating from their homes. In particular, attorneys believe Coberger's alternate
perpetrators should be kept from the public. Hitpler asked for
the information on each intended redaction, including their roles in
the case and whether they have already been identified in
(37:52):
the media.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Okay, Sidney Sumner, Crime Story's investigative reporter, also on the
Coburger case, I take it that the well, there have
been a lot of threats on witnesses, but the witnesses
that are getting the most serious threats are the ones
that defense wanted to use as some other dude did
(38:14):
it scapegoat and they knew all along it wasn't true.
Speaker 11 (38:19):
That is correct. That is those are the witnesses that
attorneys on both sides are most concerned about getting any
kind of threat or having safety concerns with their names
being made public. And the defense at this point has
admitted that those people were never involved in this crime
(38:39):
and this was simply a defense. They were trying to
point the finger elsewhere to say it was not Brian
Coburger that committed this crime. So that has been disproven.
But we know how many people support Brian Coberger. We
saw the Reddit threads, we saw the Facebook groups trying
to prove Brian coburgers in a sense, So they want
(39:01):
to protect those people that were named in this alternate
perpetrator theory and make sure their names are not linked
to the public so no one can do anything to
put those men in harsh way.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethanie Marshall, the victims'
families call them the quote proburgers that are still going online.
I said every time I dare to look at social
media that he was framed they're actually death threatening witnesses,
(39:43):
especially threats going.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
To some other dude did it scapegoat?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
The defense came up with, knowing full well Coburger committed
the murderers. They were going to blame somebody else in
open court and it leaked out and now the scapegoats
are getting threat What is Nancy these people?
Speaker 9 (40:02):
Do?
Speaker 1 (40:02):
You know?
Speaker 5 (40:02):
Three to five percent of the general population has the
same personality disorder that Coburger has, so it's not surprising
to me that he has this huge following. Coburger probably
did what his minions or followers wish they could have
done themselves. They just don't have the courage to do it, Nancy,
(40:22):
So he's their king. They are pro Burger, and they
probably are harassing anybody who they feel is going to
bring the king down. That's just what's happening here.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, I can't stress enough the
brutality of the crime scene photos. They're worse than any
so called slice and dice video you've ever seen, except
they're real. And to re victimize these victims and you
(41:00):
a horrible death that night and their families, I mean,
I can't convey the nature of these photos, Jo Scott.
Speaker 10 (41:09):
It's very difficult to do that. Nancy, reflect back, just
for a moment. Do you remember being in pre trial
as a prosecutor and when we still had the old
format images and they would be spread out all over
the table, and you're trying to decide what you're going
to use in order to describe what happened, all right,
(41:30):
and some of these images in our circumstances, you and
I over those years ago, you think, do I really
need to show this to the jury to get the
point across because we would have to use our discernment
in order to do that. Because some of these things
are so over the top, Nancy, I can't express this
enough to the viewing public. Why do you need to
(41:53):
see them outside of court? The thing has been adjudicated
at this point in time. There is no value in this.
No one is edified by this at all. And families
are being destroyed, they're being traumatized, they're having to live
through this over and over and over again. People don't understand.
You know, you could just be one of these parents
and you could be in a store and someone would
(42:14):
have seen this on the internet and they'll say, I
can't believe what happened to your child. I actually saw
the image. Just let that sink in.
Speaker 9 (42:22):
Just check.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I can tell you one thing, Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Before I would introduce brutal photos like this, I would
absolutely clear the courtroom and warn the victims' families.
Speaker 6 (42:33):
Brian Cobert wasn't always skinny, as surviving roommate Dylan Mortenson
said in her description of the mass perp. Golberger was
quite plumped before losing one hundred and thirty pounds just
in time for his sixteenth birthday. Goberger bragged about the
weight laws and a job application, claiming his dedication to
running and boxing qualified him for the part time security
job at a school in his hometown's Pleasant Valley district.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Again, Doctor Bethany Marshall, I don't know what it means,
but it means something. Brian Cober obese then goes on
a crash diet. A crash oh my goodness, yes, okay,
a crash diet. It means something.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
If it was to lure women, what does it mean?
The body image? How does that factor into this?
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Well?
Speaker 5 (43:24):
Antisocial personality disorder, which is used interchangeably with sociopathy and psychopathy.
It causes impulsivity and disregulation, meaning that people cannot control
all of their emotions overwhelm them. So somebody who's disregulated
and impulsive is just going to eat anything that's not
nailed down. Okay, So he probably had to go into
(43:47):
this total starvation mode, vegan vegetarian mode to get the
weight off so he could predate on women. I mean,
you're right, he had to look great to lure women.
And what was this one of his first It was
as a security guard, a position of power. He was
already graduating to the next thing, which would be working
(44:08):
in an academic environment where he would have access to
women and could study criminology. So it had a dual purpose,
access to women and at the same time he was
learning and preparing for the upcoming crime.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
You know, Chris McDonough, I'm thinking through all of these
red flags, the bleak apartment, the lack of contacts, the
objectification of women he would put as a contact red hair.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I'm trying to take it all in.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
But one of the most disturbing is that Washington State University.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Knew they knew there was a big.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Problem when they heard about the Mersey's Coburger.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
They knew, but they let him stay.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
If they had fired him long before, maybe these murders
would not have happened.
Speaker 9 (45:05):
Yeah, that's a great point, Nancy. I mean, what did
they know, right did they? They obviously had a PhD
file hire and deeper on complaints about Brian Coberger. And
also if we look back into his apartment for a minute,
you know, and this is his office here. You know,
it's just such a bleak personality. But look at the
(45:26):
Look at the birthday card to the left. It's Teddy
Roosevelt on a Torontosaurus Rex. And there's a comment on
that that says, this is basically your person your egos
and your personality. You know, carry a big stick. But
make sure you know you eat them. I eat right there,
both of your egos. This is a whole whole other
(45:50):
lane for for doc to tell us about. But this
really is Brian Coberger, and other people saw it, and
WSU most definitely saw it.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Okay, DEBEI, what do you make of the Freedom of
Information Act to release these brutal photos, the judges taking
it under advisement. I don't say there's any way that
you can redact out all of that gore.
Speaker 13 (46:17):
No, And first of all, I don't even know who
would want it. I mean seriously, I mean what type
of carnography would the petitioner be into?
Speaker 1 (46:25):
The freaks?
Speaker 9 (46:26):
Yeah, gore core is what I call it.
Speaker 13 (46:28):
But make no mistake about it that just because somebody
files a petition to make these photos public doesn't mean
the court's just going to grant that petition. It's subject
to a balancing test where court has to balance the
public interest in disclosure against the privacy interests of the
next of ken.
Speaker 9 (46:49):
And if you have a situation.
Speaker 13 (46:52):
Where you can prevent trauma, preserve dignity, and prevent further
distribution of this type of carnage, of court can deny it.
There's no automatic right to this material. And frankly, I
could see somebody who's into this type of imagery further
disseminating it on the black market somewhere, maybe to share
(47:13):
in this type of gorecore, or to even propit from it.
Who in their right mind would even want this?
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah, blood money, blood money, debey, you ask who is it?
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Probably nobody that you associate with.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
It's uh, probably the same people that wanted Nicole Brown's
autopsy photos. Them, those people, and they do make money
off of it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
You know what, for once, debate for once.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
I pray that you are right and the two judges
involved in this matter will hear your voice tonight, debate
as we all join the victims families and ask the
judges please do not release these photos, these images, this
audio where you can hear crying and see what happened
(48:06):
to the victims. Please don't do this to their families.
Don't say the law compels. The law does not compel.
Doby was right. You are responsible for the release of
these photos. Judge, It's on you. As we wait for
justice two unfold, we remember an American hero Officer Darren
(48:30):
Burke's Dallas PD survived by his grieving mother, Sheri. American
hero officer Darren Burke's rest in peace officer Nancy Grace
signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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