'YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL': Kohberger's Take-Down from Victim's Sister, Orders Him to 'Sit Up'

Bryan Kohberger, an admitted quadruple murderer, stares straight-faced as grief-stricken parents, siblings, grandparents, and friends of the four slain University of Idaho students speak to the court through their victim impact statements.

Kaylee Goncalves’s sister confronts Kohberger in a stunning statement that moves the courtroom to applaud. Alivea Goncalves says to Bryan Kohberger, “My sister Kaylee and her best friend Maddie were not yours to take. They were not yours to study, to stalk, or to silence. They’re everything you could never be: loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave, and powerful.”

Kaylee’s father, Steve Goncalves, also directly addresses Kohberger, calling him a "joke" and saying, “The world's watching because of the kids, not because of you.” He also highlights how easily Kohberger was tracked down by police: despite all those A’s in school, he’s still so dumb.

Kohberger declines to address the court after listening to hours of powerful statements from victims’ families. He takes a last-minute plea, sparing him the death penalty. The judge ultimately sentences him to four consecutive life sentences.

Judge Steven Hippler calls Bryan Kohberger a “coward” who “slithered through the sliding glass door at 1122 King Road” and “now stands unmasked.”

Joining Nancy Grace today:

• Greg Morse - Criminal Defense Attorney at Morse Legal, Author of “The Untested” [found on Amazon]

• Dr. Shavaun Scott- Psychotherapist, Author of “The Minds of Mass Killers: Understanding and Interrupting the Pathway to Violence” and "Game Addiction: The Experience and the Effects;"  FB: Shavaun.scott, Instagram: shavaunscott

• Dr. DeWayne Hendrix - Former Associate Warden at the MDC in Brooklyn, and Former Senior Warden with the US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons; Founder and President of A New Daylight Foundation, Author: "Who Are You?  See it Say it and Seize it;" @anewdaylight (IG)  @drdewaynehendrix (LinkedIn)  @anewdaylight (X-Twitter)  

• Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensicith Joseph Scott Morgan;" X:@JoScottForensic

• Sheryl McCollum -  Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Host of Podcast: Zone 7; X: @ColdCaseTips

• Susan Hendricks - Outside Ada County Courthouse Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Coburger Brian Coburger guilty and
sentenced life plus life plus life plus life. That's four
life sentences plus ten. Is it justice? I'm Nancy Grace.

(00:24):
This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us in the last hours. Convicted quadruple killer
Brian Coburger in a court of law and now sentenced.
The families of the four victims filing out of that courtroom.
Many people call it closure. Let me inform you there

(00:47):
is no such thing as closure when the person you
love the most is murdered. Let's take a listen to
Judge Hippler on the bench.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I am not able to come up with anything redeeming
about mister Coburger because his grotesque acts of evil have
buried in hidden anything that might have been good or
prinsically human about him. His actions have made him the
worst of the worst. Even impleading guilty is giving nothing
hinting of remorse or redemption, nothing suggesting even a recognition

(01:24):
or understanding, let alone regret for the pain that he
has caused. And therefore I will not attempt to speak
about him further other than to simply sentence him. So
that he is forever removed from civilized society.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Himpler tees it up. Then he brings down the hammer. Listen.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Recognizing the standards that govern this Court's sentencing decisions as
set forth in state be two Hill, I hereby sentence
mister Coburger as follows on count one burglary ten years fixed,
zero years indeterminate. I also impose a fine of fifty
thousand dollars. Count two, first degree murder of Madison Mogen I,

(02:08):
sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment
without the possibility of parole, a fine of fifty thousand
dollars and a civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable
to the family of the victim. On count three, for
first degree murder of Kaylei gonsalvs I, sentence the defendant
to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility

(02:30):
of parole, a fine of fifty thousand dollars and a
civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable to the victim
of the family or to the family of the victim.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
Pardon me.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
On count four for the first degree murder of Santa
Kernodle I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of
life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of
fifty thousand dollars and a civil penalty of five thousand
dollars payable to the family of the victim. On count five,
for the first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, I sentenced

(03:02):
the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without
the possibility of parole, a fine of fifty thousand dollars
and a civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable to
the family of the victim. The sentences on counts one, two, three, four,
and five shall run consecutively to one another. I remand
the defendant to the custody of the Otto State Board

(03:22):
of Corrections for to be imprisoned and an appropriate facility
and execution of the sentence, where he will remain until
he dies.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
You've heard from many outlets that the defendant, Brian Coberg,
will be sentenced to life behind bars. That is not correct.
This is life without the possibility of parole. And for
good measure, Hippler, who have got to give a lot
of credit an amazing judge on the banch throughout this ordeal.

(03:51):
For added good measure. He ran the life without Possibility
of parole consecutively, which means that when you finished one sentence,
that's when the next sentence starts. A lot of judges
sentence concurrently, where one life sentence runs at the same
time as the next one, which gives a lot of

(04:12):
leeway for a defendant to get out from behind bars.
I mean, we've seen it over and over again where
the laws change or circumstances change, and somehow a defendant
sentence to life actually walks free. Yes, It's happened quite often.
Charles Manson, perfect example, Charles Manson gets sentenced to a

(04:34):
very stiff sentence and that would be the DP and
then in that jurisdiction California is determined the DPE death
penalty is unconstitutional, so his sentence was changed, setting Charles
Manson up for parole. Yes, in this case, Hippler, God

(04:56):
bless him, sentences Coburger to life without parole, then life
without parole, and two more times to run consecutively. I've
got an all star panel, but I want to go
straight to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
author of Blood Beneath My feet on Amazon. Host of
a star podcast Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan Joe Scott,

(05:21):
even though he's been sentenced to ELWOP life without parole.
At the end of that hearing today, just an hour ago,
I felt empty. I felt empty. You out of this
panel have seen so many death scenes as of I

(05:43):
Why the empty feeling, Jo Scott. It doesn't feel like justice.

Speaker 4 (05:49):
Because there's no way Nancy to replace these precious souls.
There will always be an empty chair at every Thanksgiving table,
at every Christmas table. This is That's what makes this
so unsatisfying. You cannot replace those kids, period into paragraph.
That's what makes it so unsatisfying as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
You know, Joe Scott, you like me, have children, and
I think about, like, right now, I'm already planning the birthday,
What am I going to do? What am I going
to do for Christmas? And it spins out and in
my mind it's this endless path of my family and
me my husband with them, what do they have? All

(06:33):
they had was today The answers have been taken away
from them because there was no trial. We're getting bits
and pieces of information now that just make me sick,
sick to think that his motive was his sick pervy fetishes,
that he wanted to rape women that were passed out.

(06:53):
I mean, we're learning so much more. We're learning that
the defense was going to be blaming some of the
victim's friends. That was the defense. We're finding out that
his car was absolutely identified in the area, tagging everything
multiple times that night. There's even an eyewitness that identifies

(07:14):
him at the home the night of the murders. This
case would have been a death penalty in the end.
I don't know if that even that would have satisfied
a desire for justice. Here, we've got the future to
look forward to. They've got nothing except today when they
gave those victim impact statements. Joe Scott, that's all they've got.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
No, You're absolutely right, And look, I got to tell
you thank you for making the comment about the word closure.
It's one of the biggest lives that's ever been sold
to people that are going through grief. You do, you
do not, on any level achieve closure. It's very dissatisfying,
you know. And I've dealt with so many families over
the years, Nancy that still call me. You know, they

(07:58):
would call me seven years after the fact, after they
had lost a loved one, many of them drunk. Can
you imagine that in the middle of the night, I'd
still be on duty at the m's office, just wanting
to have somebody to talk to because no one else understood.
And I can't say that I could even plumb the
depths of it, but I was at the scene and
I talked to them, and that's that one point of

(08:19):
contact that they have Nancy over the years. And you
never stop missing the person, you never have closure. You
know why, because this guy, this convicted five time felon
now is still breathing air and their kids are not
He sentenced, not just he's sentenced these families. Please hear

(08:41):
me right on this. He sentenced these families to life
imprisonment along with him. They had no choice in this matter.
They are all that remains. They have been sentenced as well.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
The victims in this case who are brutally murdered. From
the beginning, we were told they were murdered in their sleep.
That's not true. That is not true. Joining me, Susan Hendrix,
you know her well, She's been with us all day
long outside the courthouse. She's the author of Down the Hill,
My Descend into the double murder in Delphi, and now

(09:16):
she has latched onto this case like nobody's business. I
want to welcome Susan Hendricks for being with us. Susan,
we found out now that Xana had come down the
stairs and she fought for her life. She fought for
her life. That's nothing like what we were told to

(09:37):
start with.

Speaker 5 (09:38):
Absolutely, and when new details come out, they're just more
excruciating for the family. We have heard that maybe she
saw something, heard something was getting of course the door
dash as you know, and then maybe he chased her
you mentioned, And I thought this was key, that this
is all they had.

Speaker 6 (09:55):
Was today.

Speaker 5 (09:55):
I was in the courtroom and I could see it,
Nancy building the tension, Kelly's his knee was shaking. He
was to the right of me and his knee was shaking,
and I could tell he was going through what he
was going to say. So he's almost like practicing. And
it's all they had, and they gave it everything they've
been wanting to say this for so long, everything that
they wanted to say. And I will say there was

(10:16):
a ten minute break in between and I looked at
Kelly's dad, and I said, you did a great job
in Kelly's sister and they said thank you and they
were smiling.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
I feel like it's so healing to get that out.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, you know what, I disagree, Susan, I disagree. I'll
tell you why. I hadn't had this memory for a decade,
two decades, But as we were hearing about Dylan Mortenson
stating that she had to go and sleep in her

(10:51):
mother's bed for so long after this, I remember sleeping
with my mother and my father in their little bed
after my fiance's murder. Those memories, like Joe Scott was saying,
they never go away and they come back at the

(11:13):
most improbable moments. So all this about healing and coclosure
and no closure, there's no such thing. And I really
resent people that have never been through it talk about
how all the victims' families are healed because they spoke
for five minutes in a courtroom. But I can tell
you one thing that happened in this hearing, and I

(11:33):
know you saw it. Tuesdays and Hendricks Killey Gounsovus's sister
let him have it. She said a lot of what
we all wanted to say to coburger. Listen.

Speaker 7 (11:46):
My name is Olivia, and I'm the big sister of
Keilly Gonsalvez, and I was blessed to love Madison Mogan
as a sister too. I'm not here today to speak
in grief. I'm here to speak in truth because the
truth is, my sister Kayley and her best friend Mattie
were not yours to take. They were not yours to study,
to stalk, or to silence. They were two pieces of

(12:11):
a whole, the perfect yin and yang. They are everything
that you could never be loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave
and powerful. Because the truth about Kayley and Maddy, they
would have been kind to you if you would approach
them in their everyday lives. They would have given you directions,

(12:33):
thanked you for the compliment, or awkwardly giggled to make
your own words less uncomfortable for you in a world
that rejected you. They would have shown mercy. Because the
truth is, I'm angry. Every day I'm angry. I'm left

(12:54):
shouting at the inside of my own head. Everything I
wish I could say to you. The truth about me
is when I heard the news, I didn't cry I
listened for them. I promised them I would that I
would fight for them, that I would show up no
matter what it cost me.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
That's Olivia Gonsalva said. She starts off talking about her sister,
then she lays in to Coburger.

Speaker 7 (13:23):
I won't stand here and give you what you want.
I won't offer you tears, I won't offer you trembling
disappointments like you thrive on pain, on fear, and on
the illusion of power, And I won't feed your beast. Instead,
I will call you what you are, sociopath, psychopath, murderer.

(13:47):
I will ask the questions that reverberate violently in my
own head, so loudly that I can't think straight most
any day. Some of these might be familiar, So set
up straight.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I talk to you.

Speaker 7 (14:02):
How is your life right before you murdered my sisters?
Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment?
Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time.
Why did you choose my sisters before making your move?
Did you approach my sisters? Detail what you were thinking

(14:24):
and feeling before leaving their home? Is there anything else
you did?

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (14:30):
How does it feel to know the only thing you
failed more miserably at than being a murderer is trying.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
To be a rapper?

Speaker 7 (14:39):
Did you recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows?

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Why?

Speaker 7 (14:45):
November thirteenth, did you truly think your Amazon purchase was
untraceable because you used a gift card? How do you
find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case
of visual snow? Where is the murder weapon? The clothes
you wore that night? What did you bring into the

(15:08):
house with you? What was the second weapon you used
on Keyley? What were Kaylee's last words?

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Joining me right now is a special guest, Cheryl McCollum.
She's a forensic expert. She is the founder and director
of the Cold Case Research Institute, and she's the star
of a hit podcast, Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum is joining
us from the field now. Cheryl McCollum. I don't know
if anybody else caught this. I bet you did. You're

(15:39):
hearing Liva go Solvice as Keille Goslves as sister, and
she's reading right out of the questionnaire the Coburger gave
to all those violent felons as part of his pH
d study did you hear did you prepare? How was
your life right before you murdered my sisters before leaving

(16:03):
your apartment? Detail what you were thinking and feeling at
the time. Why did you choose this victim before you
made your move? Did you approach the victim? Detail what
you were thinking and feeling before leaving your home? Is
there anything else you did? She is knifing him with
his own words, Cheryl McCollum.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
It was brilliant.

Speaker 8 (16:27):
It was so unbelievably delivered. You're talking about a young
woman that is staring down the monster that killed her sister,
and she said, you will get no tears from me.
You are not going to see me shaking my boots
looking at you. And then when she delivered his own

(16:47):
words back to him, it was like nothing I've ever seen, Naki,
You and I have seen thousands of these. Normally it's
only about the victim when she turned it on him.
Are not just questions he had, but I think they're
valid to what the family deserves to know.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
And Cheryl, everyone keeps talking about, well, he showed no emotion, Cheryl,
I never have, but I've seen people have pet lizards
or sometimes maybe an iguana, but let me just go
with lizard. It doesn't show emotion. It's called blooded. It's
a reptile. Throughout the entire sentencing, Coburger sat there and

(17:29):
showed no emotion. What did everybody think was going to happen?
That he'd start crying and beg forgiveness and say he
was sorry and tell us the truth. No, in fact,
anything he says with this point on is a lie,
and it's only for his self gratification or for he
has aggrandizement. Of course, he didn't even I don't even

(17:52):
know if I saw him blink.

Speaker 8 (17:53):
Cheryl, You're absolutely right, And I think that's another reason
when they addressed him about what he did, he did
not give them anything that he could get enjoyment from.
He didn't get that sadness, that gut wrenching. I caused
this chaos, I caused this heartache. They took that away

(18:13):
from them. I thought her words were not just brilliant,
but spot on, and it might have just set the
bar for everybody coming behind her.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
You know, cherylmccall, I'm going to ask you a personal question.
In all the years i've known you, all the years
we've worked together, I've never asked you, have you ever
listened to testimony or in this case, a sentencing hearing
and get physically nauseous because I actually got sick to
my stomach listening to all this and hearing what these victims'

(18:45):
families lived through in the ordeal that they're still going through.
It was like the worst flashback I've had in years.

Speaker 8 (18:54):
You know, I certainly.

Speaker 9 (18:57):
Often, you know, would find myself just choking up, like
getting really emotional and crime because you can't hear it
as a sister, as a daughter, Now, especially.

Speaker 8 (19:09):
As a mother, I can tell you I could stay
pretty good in control prior to having hunting Caroline. After that,
I'm much more sensitive. I'm much more apt to just
try to imagine the unthinkable, the just. There's no way

(19:29):
to put into words. You and I have talked about it, Nancy.
You and I have sat with more than one victim
and tried to help them craft their victim impact statement.
How do you put it into words what your child
means to you? It's impossible. But these families did a
remarkable job today, There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay, Can we all agree that the families were remarkable?
Every speaker in their own way was remarkable, but is
their justice? Will we ever know what happened? We may
never know a motive, We may never know how this
thing went down. And I've got to tell you there's

(20:12):
always questions and they never go away. For the rest
of the victims family's life. They're going to wonder, well,
wait a minute, did she see who attacked her? Did
she have any idea? Had they ever met, did they
fight back?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
What happened?

Speaker 1 (20:27):
And those are questions not everybody wants to know the
answer to, but a lot of victims' families want to
know what happened in the last moments of their child's life.
You know, we read in news releases and obituaries X
died with their family around them. It wasn't like this

(20:50):
for the Idaho victims. They died at the hands of
Brian Koberger, who slaughtered them. And now we got to
give him three hats at a cot for the rest
of his life. Now, I do appreciate what Judge Hipler did.
I've got nothing bad to say about Hipler. Listen to

(21:13):
how he described that morning of November thirteen.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
During the quiet morning hours of November thirteen, twenty twenty two,
a faceless coward reached the tranquility of six beautiful young
people and senselessly slaughtered them. Four of them. Who committed

(21:39):
this unspeakable evil was unknown for several weeks, but due
to the killers in competence and outstanding police work by
numerous local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies, the person
that slithered through that sliding glass door at one one
two two King Road now stands before the world, and

(21:59):
this court unmasked. This unfathomable and senseless act of evil
has caused immeasurable pain and loss. No parent should ever
have to bury their child. This is the greatest tragedy

(22:19):
that can be inflicted upon a person. Parents who took
their children to college in a truck filled with moving
boxes had to bring them home in hearses lined.

Speaker 10 (22:32):
With collins.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Are.

Speaker 11 (22:37):
One of the roommates has passed out.

Speaker 8 (22:40):
And he a strong class and the up did you?

Speaker 2 (22:43):
On November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, in Leayta County, State
of Idaho, kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalvez, Xana
kernodle Ethan chapin Yes Oh.

Speaker 12 (22:56):
And they saw some man of their house that was Brian.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Kiberger gets life plus life plus Life plus Life plus
ten consecutively, one after the other, Life without parole, Will
there ever truly be justice? We got to pay for
three hots and a cot for this guy. We've got

(23:20):
to pay for his therapy and his iPad and his
vegan meals, and one day we're gonna have to pay
for his internet connection so he can zoom with people
to describe his side of the story and help coauthor
his book and his made for TV movie and blah
blah blah blah blah. Yeah, now I just figured out

(23:43):
why the whole thing made me nauseous because of that. Well,
one shining light in today was Olivia Gonsalves.

Speaker 7 (23:51):
Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must
have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up
to your family home. It's December thirtieth, twenty twenty two.
Which do you regret more returning to the crime scene
five hours later, or never ever going back to Moscow,

(24:13):
not even once after stalking them there for months. If
you're really smart, do you think you'd be here right now?
What's it like needing this much attention just to feel real?
You're terrified of being ordinary? Aren't you Do you feel

(24:35):
anything at all? Or are you exactly what you always feared? Nothing?
If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding? Defendant?
You see I'm here today as me, But who are you?
Let's try to take off your mask and see.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
Olivia Gonsalve is laying into Brian Coburger, and I find
it really interesting the way she talked to him and
asked him these questions, many of them out of his
own questionnaire, and that he, as part of his PhD studies,
would ask convicted violent felons behind bars, what were you
thinking before you committed the violent crime? What went through

(25:16):
your mind? How did she meet the victims? Just tons
and tons of personal questions, But here she talks about
many of the mistakes he made, mistakes that led to
his uncovering. What about it? Joe Scott Morgan?

Speaker 4 (25:33):
You know he I think, I think that he longs
for this opportunity to talk to people. That's one of
the reasons he didn't say anything in the closing. That's
one of the things he didn't one of the reasons
we didn't have any form of elocution from him, Nancy.
He wants to control things on his own terms. I
love what the judge said relative to preventing him from

(25:57):
creating anything in the future. And can I admit one
thing to you real quick, Yes, the idea that he's
going to not be allowed to talk to anybody from
Hollywood about a story or whatever the judge alluded to.
That understand, academics are just as mercenary, okay, because they're
going to cloak themselves and say that we need to

(26:20):
study this guy. What the hell else do we have
to learn from him? Stick him in a deep dark hole.
I don't ever want to hear his name again after today.
To be perfectly honest.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
With you, I agree, Joe Scott. I hope I never
hear him or see him again. But all of his
business about how he cannot appeal the plea, that's not right.
There's a US Supreme Court decision that says you can
appeal a guilty plea that you willingly and knowingly enter.
For instance, what if a year from now he finds

(26:52):
out that some other person confessed a false confession, he
could go back and claim neely discovered evidence and have
that guilty plea thrown out. That's just an example. Guilty,
Please can be appealed. So to think he'll never appeal this,
that's a pipe dream. But I was noticing in the questioning.

(27:16):
And I'm going to go now to doctor Chavon Scott, psychotherapist,
a best selling author. Her new release is night Bird,
and she wrote The Minds of mass Killers. Doctor Chavon Scott,
There's so much more to say about you, but I
want to ask you about Olivia and solve this. Addressing

(27:38):
Brian Koberger in court, she says, if you are really smart,
do you think you'd be here right now? Do you? Uh?
What does it feel like to need this much attention
just to feel real? That? And other questions. I've got
them all laid down in front of me. She really

(28:00):
called him on all of his mistakes, about how he
looked down his nose at everybody else and felt superior
to everybody else, but now he's the one in shackles
in the orange jumpsuit.

Speaker 10 (28:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 13 (28:11):
I think she was brilliant because if you really want
a jab at this guy's ego, that's the way to
go about it is highlight his inadequacies, his mistakes, the
ways that he thought he was such a brilliant killer
and he was going to get away with it, and
he didn't, And you hit him in that ego because

(28:34):
we know he has an ego. And I think she
did that beautifully. It's one of the awful things about
psychopaths like this, who are sadistic. Often when they hear
the family's pain, they get a perverse sense of pleasure
out of it. They may sit there very stoic, they

(28:54):
may not have a reaction, but inside they're enjoying it.
I've heard them say I liked listening to the family
suffering because they get off on suffering.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Oh it's awful, Doctor Chevin Scott, I know that up
here that killers enjoy like watching on TV, watching the hunt,
watching the press conferences of people frantically looking for them.
They like watching the victim's family begging. They like it.
That's always been what I believed. But to hear you

(29:26):
say it, that you know it, that you've spoken to
killers that tell you they enjoyed it, I'm just wondering,
Cheryl McCollum, I'm just wondering if that piece of crap
Brian Coberger enjoyed watching the victims' families suffering in court
today because about based on what Chavin is telling me,

(29:49):
doctor Chevin Scott, he probably did that freaking pervy.

Speaker 8 (29:54):
This is his big event. He calls all of this everything.
A person that showed up today showed up because of him.
Everybody upset he did it. Everybody that wasn't there, teachers
and neighbors and friends and fraternity brothers. He calls every
bit of that pain and anguish and chaos, every police officer,

(30:18):
he did it. This is the biggest thing he will
ever do in his life. This is the only thing
anybody's ever going to talk to him about, want to
hear from him about. He has nothing else to offer.
But I want to say one thing about justice. And
I want to make this really clear. When you talk
about an eye for an eye, that sounds even like

(30:40):
you took twenty dollars from me. You got to give
me twenty dollars back. There is nothing that you could
do to that man that would equal justice for those children.
They were beautiful, they were loving, they were given, they
were friendly, they were generous. He's none of those things.

(31:00):
Hands get justice from him. If we put him in
the electric chair and kill him, well, how many times
do we get to killing? How many times do we
revive him and kill him again. There is nothing mid
evil enough we could do to him.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
I've got a great answer for that. I would say four.
I'd say four four times too. Did you say kill
him and revive him again? Yeah? Might go that far
in seeking justice. I mean, I don't know if there
ever is justice, But I know one thing I know.
Olivia Gounsolves is a superstar. Listen to this.

Speaker 7 (31:35):
You didn't create devastation. You revealed it, and it's in
yourself and that darkness you carry, that emptiness. You'll sit
with it long after this is over. That is your sentence,
and it was written on the wall long before you
ever pled guilty. You didn't win. You just exposed yourself

(31:57):
as the poward you are. You're a dellusional, pathetic, hypochondriac
loser who thought you were so much smarter than everybody else,
constantly scolding, turning your nose up to grammar mistakes, nitpicking
and criticizing others. You wanted so badly to be different,
to be special, to be better, to be deep, to

(32:19):
be mysterious. You found yourself thinking you were better than
everyone else, and you thought you could figure out the
human psyche and see through it.

Speaker 14 (32:28):
All while tweaked.

Speaker 6 (32:28):
Out on heroin.

Speaker 7 (32:31):
Lurking in the shadows made you feel powerful because no
one ever paid you any attention in the light.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Two words, the bomb, Olivia Gonsalves the bob. Did you
hear what? She said? Straight out to Greg Morris chomping
at the bit, veteran criminal defense attorney at Morse I Legal,
author of the Untested on Amazon, and you can find
them at morse Illegal dot com. Man, this girl's got

(32:57):
a future in front of her if she wants to
be a felony prosecutor. Did you do you hear her?
You're right, constantly scolding. You know, nobody hates anything more
than I know it all, constantly scolding, turning your nose
up to grammar mistakes. Remember he was a TA No,
we do ntsizing.

Speaker 15 (33:18):
Yep.

Speaker 16 (33:19):
What if there's something that will stay with him for
the rest of his life, it will be Olivia's allocution
statement to him or victim impact statement on behalf of
her sister. I've done this job for a long time.
We can go back to the beginnings of criminals. Criminals
are morons. This guy was a nobody who wanted to

(33:41):
be special, and he's a nobody, loser, moron, and she
called him on that and now all the other stuff.
I think your experts are right. He liked to see
the family struggle, and you know I caused all this,
but that all stopped in his head when Olivia and
the judge said something important too.

Speaker 15 (33:58):
He called him incompetent.

Speaker 16 (34:00):
When you attack a moron and call him for what
he is is what the sister did to him, she
can for what is. There is no closure in these cases.
The trauma is too deep. My dad used to say,
a parent who loses a child is only waiting to die,
and so there is no closure. But knowing the criminal
mind and knowing that this is born of stupidity, This

(34:22):
is born of a loser, a weak person, a lazy person.
That sister's statement, he will roll that over. And what
he's going to do is he's going to think to himself,
I'll show you. But he'll never be able to, so
he will live in misery.

Speaker 15 (34:36):
Let alone.

Speaker 16 (34:37):
It's not three hots in the cop Our prison systems
in America are difficult. Food is industrial level, so he
will have a horrible experience.

Speaker 15 (34:44):
Every day will be how do I stop.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Actually say that doesn't care to have food that you
whit need. He's not getting his private chef to no, no.

Speaker 16 (34:54):
No, no, no, what you're not understanding, Nancy, in society were people,
it's not. He will have a miserable existence and Olivia's
statements will ring in his head because he is going
to want to show where he's somebody, but he's a nobody.
And she called him on it and brought vo to
her for having the courage to do that.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
You know what, Mores, It just hit me in all
the years that I prosecuted felony cases, and I would
be in a closing argument and I would talk about
all the mistakes the defendant made and how he got caught,
Like it could be a fingerprint, It could be driving
under a street lamp and somebody getting the tag id.

(35:34):
It could be loose lips that sink ships where they
said something that only the killer would know, that kind
of thing. And there were a couple of times, and
this was rare for me. Is you can only imagine
that I would break a smile because such an idiot.

(35:54):
Those were the only times when you would kind of
get a laugh off the defendant house stupid and competently
were that you would get a rise out of the defendant.
That would make them matt no remorse, no shame. But
when it's pointed out to them, hey, you screwed up
a hole. That's how you got caught. That's the only

(36:15):
way you'd get a rise out of them. And when
Olivi Gosolvus was talking about you think you're so smart,
you think you're brilliant, Look what you.

Speaker 15 (36:24):
Did, idiot, Well that's what it.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Is that will stick with him.

Speaker 16 (36:28):
Morse, So he called him out on his you know,
the way he viewed himself that was phony, not just
you did this wrong or that, which was which was
very impactful also, but also on you know.

Speaker 15 (36:40):
We know that you're a nobody.

Speaker 16 (36:42):
We know you're a loser who thinks you're special, and
that's why you did this, but everybody knows you're not.
And very to have the courage to be that articulate
in such a unimaginable for anyone who hasn't experienced, I
can't imagine. Even though I've sat in courtrooms and listened
to this, I still no one can imagine what it's
like unless you go through it. And also just to

(37:02):
point out that was very smart. The prosecutor for the
family to get the appellate waiver. We do that a
lot in federal cases, at least in Florida. We don't
do that much in state cases when there's a play,
which most cases resolve by. But yes, you're right, there
are very now narrow circumstances. He can appeal a habeas
petition and ineffective counsel. Those petitions usually go nowhere fast.

(37:27):
So that was a good thing for the family that
maybe they don't realize now, But every time there's something
in the paper about the initial brief was filed and
now there's an appeal going to be heard, that overwhelms
the family and feels like there's no this is going
to open up again.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
I bet they feel a lot better when that firing
squad goes down. No more now speaking yet, Well, that's
you talking, that's not them talking. Living and solve us
didn't stop there.

Speaker 7 (37:56):
You thought you were exceptional all because of a grade
on a paper. You thought you were elite because your
online IQ test from twenty ten told you so, all
of that effort just to seem important.

Speaker 14 (38:09):
It's desperate.

Speaker 7 (38:11):
There is a name for your condition, though, your inflated
ego just didn't allow you to see it.

Speaker 6 (38:16):
Wanna be.

Speaker 7 (38:19):
You act like no one could ever understand your mind.
But the truth is you're basic. You're a text bookcase
of insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable, your
motives are shallow. You are not profound. You're pathetic. You
aren't special or deep, not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever

(38:41):
get it twisted again. No one is scared of you today.
No one is intimidated by you, no one is impressed
by you. No one thinks that you are important. You
orchestrated this like you thought you were God. Now look
at you, begging a courtroom for scraps. You spent months preparing,

(39:02):
and still all it took was my sister and a sheath.
You work so hard to see them dangerous, but real
control doesn't have to prove itself.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
I just want to stand up and cheer right now.
I want to cheer this woman. And I know I've
got other victim impact statements for you to hear. I
just want to give you one more little bit of
this girl. I'm telling you Olivia Gonsolves. And if this
is any tiny example, a tiny example of what her

(39:33):
sister killer, gonslves was like I'm in She would have
set the world on fire.

Speaker 7 (39:39):
Listen, the truth is the scariest part about you. It's
how painfully average you turned out to be. The truth
is as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.
Let me be very clear, don't ever try to convince

(40:02):
yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name
out loud. You thought I see through you. You want
the truth, Here's the one you'll hate the most. If
you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the middle
of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have kicked
your fucking ass.

Speaker 14 (40:23):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 7 (40:39):
I don't know a location.

Speaker 6 (40:44):
I don't know what.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
She's not working up. My man in the house was
life plus Live, plus Live plus live run consecutively. That's
what coburger got today. Many people thought that a jury
should at least be given the choice of the death penalty.

(41:10):
That did not happen, over the objections of about half
the victims' families. Joscott Morgan, I want you and the
rest of our panel to listen to what Olivia Gonsova said.
She says, just because you took an online IQ test.
You think you're brilliant, man, Okay, that that hurt. You're

(41:35):
a wanna be and you're just basic. You're basic, you know,
like a car that doesn't have any upgrades on it.
It's just like plastic on wheels, That's what she's saying.
And all this time Coburger thought he was so subed.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
Yeah, he did. He thought he was a legend in
his own mind. And you know, you can see that
that's demonstrated in academia, Nancy. This idea that he went
to WSU and he you know, first off, he treats
all of his students, those that he's a TA for
like garbage, particularly the women. I think that's kind of

(42:12):
significant in this case. And then those that are in
a position of authority over him, Nancy, he's only one
he's only one semester into a doctoral program. Let's face it.
In that position, you're lower than pond'scum at that point
in time, you have no voice in that environment. You're

(42:32):
there to work and do what you're told to do.
And I don't think that it would balance out in
his mind. I think that for a long time he
thought that he was the smartest person in the room,
and he failed miserably. I love the fact that she
uses term basic that he thought that he was some
kind of superstar.

Speaker 15 (42:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (42:49):
For how long now, I've had people that have approached
me that have said, oh, well, you know, he took
these classes in college and he was exposed to this
and that. But you know what, I watched NASCAR on
Sunday afternoon. Doesn't make me a damn Nascar driver, you know.
And that's about the extent of it. He has no
experience in forensics whatsoever. And yeah, he was able to

(43:12):
clean up after himself, but in the end, the science
got him. He's not that bright, you know.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Doctor Dwayne Hendrix is with us. He is former Associate
Warden MDC Brooklyn, former Senior warden with the US Department
of Justice with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He founded
the New Daylight Foundation. He's the author of who Are
You See It? Say It Sees It? Doctor Hendrix, you've
seen it all, as have many of us on the panel.

(43:40):
Why do defendants think they know everything? And then they're
so angry when somebody says you took an online IQ test?
Get over it?

Speaker 12 (43:51):
Well, Nancy. He appears and I'm not a psychologist by profession,
but I think he's a sociopath. And for some reason,
I agree what Professor Scott talked about, you know, thinking,
you know, some of the thoughts about him, you know,
being the smartest person in the room, thought he controlled everything.
And now he's been exposed for what he truly is

(44:12):
by the fact that he didn't say anything today at.

Speaker 15 (44:14):
The Cenising hearing.

Speaker 12 (44:15):
He didn't apologize, he didn't take any responsibility for his actions.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
And I'm projects, did you not hear me talking about
the pet lizard that just goes we need to talk
to it. That's coburger. What do you think he's going
to say, I'm sorry I did.

Speaker 12 (44:34):
No, No, I didn't think that. But but I have
a concerned about where if he's going to have I
don't know if he's had a cell has a cell
mate just yet, but I think the fact that he
probably does want to be more famous, he does want
to continue this conversation, I'm very concerned that he'll probably
reoffend again, especially if they don't get a hold of

(44:55):
his whatever his mental issues are. And I'm not sure
where they're gonna house him once he gets to that
maximum security prison.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
I don't think that there's a medical diagnosis for this.
I think he's just a straight up ahole.

Speaker 12 (45:08):
I would agree with that, And I do believe that
he's going to reoffend again because I think he wants
to keep his name in the papers, his name in
the light. And depending on where they house him and
who they house him with, is going to determine whether
he is either going to reoffend or if he's going
to be harmed in some way. He may end up

(45:28):
being a victim of homicide himself there in the state
of Idaho.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Oh Hendrix, Hendrix, Hendrix, my poor naive doctor, Dwayne Hendrix.
How many times do we hear people say there'll be
prison justice. When is their prison justice? I've known of.
I can count on one hand the number of times
a killer has been killed behind bars because of what

(45:52):
he did. There was one Catholic priest who was killed
because one of his molested victims happened to be in
that facility and killed him. There aren't that many cases
of prison justice. There's a lot of fights, and there's
a lot of murders, but not in the name of
prison justice. So can we just put that myth to

(46:12):
bad Hendrix.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
No, I won't.

Speaker 12 (46:14):
I respect your opinion, Nancy, but but this is who
he is because remember I always say, there's two things
you don't want to be in prison, one informant, one
as a sex offender. But the third is the category
he fits himself in. Inmates don't like inmates who harmed women.
And he killed three women.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Since you know that, doctor Hendricks, name me three people,
just three, we'll just start with three and that have
been murdered behind bars to get back at them for
what they did.

Speaker 12 (46:45):
Said, what was the Jeffrey Dahmer. I believe that was one.
I can't name the other two.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Yep, that's one that was on my list.

Speaker 12 (46:52):
Yeah, Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't have the other two, but
I guarantee you.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
The other two. But guy was on my list. Okay, yeah, right, Yeah,
they're out there, but I don't know their names. You
sound like one of the defendants that get on the
stand under my cross examination and try to blame somebody else.
I'm like, well, what's their name? I don't know what
they look like. I don't know because they're not any
there's not any you got father John Gogan, he was

(47:20):
sixty eight. He was convicted of child molestation and he
was murdered behind bars by Joseph Druce out of rage
at what the father had done. And the assailant was
a victim of child molestation. So that's two two in

(47:42):
history that we can think of. So don't count on
prison justice. We should meet out justice, the court should
meet out justice. We shouldn't rely on inmates to meet
out justice. Okay, that's too Hendrix. I'm going to give
you a time out while you can google and find
out if there's anybody else. In the meantime, you've heard

(48:07):
sister gunsolves Olivia. Now take a listen to mother and gounsovs.
I love this woman.

Speaker 10 (48:14):
You are entering a place where no one will care
who you are and no one will ever respect you.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
You will be.

Speaker 10 (48:20):
Forgotten, discarded, used and erased. You will always be remembered
as a loser, an absolute failure. And when those prison
doors slams shut behind you, I hope that sound echoes
in your heart for the rest of your meaningless days.
I hope it reminds you of what we all already know.

(48:40):
You're nothing. May you continue to live your life in misery.
You are officially the property of the state of Idaho,
where your fellow inmates are anxiously awaiting your arrival. But
it's okay because they're there to help you.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
And she didn't leave it there. She sent Coburger a
message from her youngest daughter.

Speaker 10 (49:05):
Listen quick message from our youngest daughter, Aubrey wanted to
see you may have received a's in high school and college,
but you're going to be getting big d's in prison.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Joining me is Susan Hendrix, who has been in the
courtroom throughout covering this. Today you heard the mom of
Killi Gorinsavas speak. She sends a message from the little
sister Aubrey, and Aubrey says Coburger, you may have received
a's in high school and college, but you're going to
be getting big d's in prison. Yeah, okay, you don't

(49:52):
have to spell that out for me. What was the
reaction in the courtroom to that, speaking of prison justice.

Speaker 6 (49:57):
I was kind of looking around and there were, of
course offices.

Speaker 5 (50:00):
In there, and there was kind of a truckle and
take it aback and then applause. If there was a
masterclass on how to get to a psychopathic sociopath.

Speaker 6 (50:10):
It was a consolvist family.

Speaker 5 (50:11):
It's the only time in court because I could directly
see kind of his jawline only about twenty feet from
Cobra or thirty feet that he clenched it when she
talked about how he treased his students and how he's
nothing in a paraphrasing here, it got to him and
I saw it.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Guys, we also heard from Xana Kernodle's sister Jasmine, listen.

Speaker 17 (50:33):
Because the truth is, you don't deserve power over my feelings,
in my words or me. In the end, I realized
this woman isn't about you. It's about justice for Xanna, Ethan, Kaylee,
and Maddie. It's about honoring the beautiful, beautiful people they

(50:53):
were and still are in God's eyes. Xanna didn't get
the future she deserved.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
She won't be the.

Speaker 17 (50:59):
Maid of owning the cool on to my future children.
I'll never hear her laugh or see her light upper
room over again, but I will carry her with me
for the rest of my life. I will live in
her honor, fight to be the best kind of woman
and someone she's proud of, to make sure the world

(51:21):
never forgets who she was.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
That was so poignant, Cheryl McCollum. When the sister is
describing how Xanna will never be her maid of honor,
I mean, and it makes you think, it evokes all
the future events that will never.

Speaker 8 (51:39):
Happen, when she describes the future events that are never
going to happen again. The families live with this loss
every single day, and some of those events are going
to be so powerful when she does get married and
her sister there, when she has her children and her
sister's not there. But you know, just those general days,

(51:59):
just an average Wednesday, that you can't call and talk
about something funny that happened, or call and say I
felt the baby, or you know, I picked out flowers,
whatever it is. Those are such powerful moments that will
be tarnished.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
You know, Cheryl, you just gave me a flashback when
I found out I was gonna have the twins, right,
I was sent to Virginia Tech, remember the shooting at
Virginia Tech, And I didn't have anybody to tell. I
got out of the car, pulled over to the side
of the interstate and call my sister in California. And

(52:42):
I was standing on the side of the interstate and
that's who I had to tell and that will never happen.
That will never happen for Jasmine. And we also heard
from Xana's stepfather Randy, and you could tell he has
been through hell.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
You man, I don't know what my limits are here,
but I'm really struggling, dude, I am struggling, so I
want to I want to just be out in the
woods with you, just so I can teach you about
loss and pain. I'm not I belive.

Speaker 15 (53:21):
I love God.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
I wouldn't take your life. That's up to him, but
I guarantee you you are weak God. I would just
give a moment, man, five minutes out of the woods.
Oh man, you're gonna go to Hell. I know people
believe in other stuff. You're You're evil. There's no place

(53:44):
for you in heaven. You took our children. You are
gonna suffer.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Man.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
I'm shaking because I want to reach out to you.
But I just I hope you feel my energy. Okay,
go to hell.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
For one moment, I thought he was gonna leave across
that lectern and get coburger by the neck. We also
heard words from Dylan Mortenson. She and Bethany have been
attacked so brutally and oppressed. Since the murders, they're lucky
to be alive today. Let's know what, Dylan Mortenson relayed.

Speaker 11 (54:28):
I was barely nineteen when he did this. We had
just celebrated my birthday at the end of September. I
should have been figuring out who I was. I should
have been having the cold experience and starting to establish
my future. Instead, I was forced to learn how to
survive the unimaginable. I'm couldn't be alone. I had to

(54:55):
sleep in my mom's bed because I was too terrified
to close my eyes, Terrified that if I blinked, someone
might be there. I made escape plans everywhere I went.
If something happens, how do I get out? What can
I use to defend myself? Who can help? Then there

(55:16):
are the panic attacks. The guy that slam into me
like a tsunami out of nowhere. I can't breathe, I
can't think.

Speaker 18 (55:27):
I can't stop shaking. All I can do is scream.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
It just is like a stab to hear Dylan Mortonson
describing what she's still living through the panic attacks where
she can't breathe, she said, it feels like a tsunami
wave hitting her she can't stop shaking. All she can
do is scream it's real, There's nothing wrong with her,
this is normal. This is trauma that she may never

(55:58):
get over. Listen to more of Dylan Morton's.

Speaker 11 (56:03):
People call me strong, they say I'm a survivor, but
they don't see what my new reality looks like.

Speaker 18 (56:10):
They don't see the.

Speaker 11 (56:11):
Panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the way I scan
every room I enter, the way I flinch, it sudden sounds.
They don't know how heavy it is to carry so
much pain and still be expected to keep going.

Speaker 18 (56:27):
And that's because of him. He still boards on me.
I may never get back.

Speaker 11 (56:35):
He took the version of me who didn't go instantly
ask what if that happens again? What if next time?
I don't survive?

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Susan Henry's joining us from the courthouse. Susan explain to
everyone how she came across as she was giving her
impact statement. Oh that was.

Speaker 5 (56:55):
Heart wrenching, it was she her heart was bleeding. She
was being honest about her life has been torture ever since.
She thinks, when will I be next? Look what you
took from me? These were my friends and this was
the only time I looked over Brian Koberger's mother was there,
no sign of his father. Two sisters, they were wiping tears.
They connected with her. They felt that and I saw it.

(57:17):
But I feel for her. You could tell that it
took everything, but she had to be there. She had
to read that statement and just saying how it's People
expect me to go on and I don't know how to.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
You know, doctor Chavon Scott, he's joining us renowned psychotherapist's
best selling author, doctor Chevon. It's hard for people that
haven't lived through it, and people shouldn't understand it. I
don't want them to have to understand it, but this
is real. I've seen victims literally shaking all over when

(57:51):
they had to take the witness stand and recount what
happened to them, what they lived through. It's brutal and
for the rest of your life, anything can trigger it.

Speaker 13 (58:04):
Yeah, we're really talking about severe, severe, post traumatic stress.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
And that changes the brain.

Speaker 13 (58:13):
I've lived through it and I completely get it.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
The brain can just break.

Speaker 13 (58:18):
We can be emotionally shattered, and we're never the same
people we would have been if we hadn't have gone
through something like that, and in treatment. We certainly work
with survivors. We do our best to try to help
them come to some degree of healing, but the world
is never safe for them again, and they're never the same,

(58:41):
and they move through it completely differently than they would
have if they'd not been through that trauma.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
And I guarantee you, Sharyl McCollum, just her testifying or
speaking in court today, we'll make it all come back.
And you and I have had to beg witnesses to testify.
I beg them because they don't want to relive it,
even verbally.

Speaker 8 (59:04):
She even said, I'm shaking right now she's having to
face him. But let me say this, this is my
prayer for her. With all the panic attacks and the
escape plans that she puts into place, and her life
is torture. She faced that devil today and I hope
she understands the power in that.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Guys, we've all heard the name Dylan Mortenson, but the
other name, the other girl that lived. Finally, she tells
us what she told police, what happened that night. A
few answers. Listen.

Speaker 19 (59:41):
When I first woke up one morning, I had no
idea what happened. I woke up around seven with a
terrible toothache. So I called my dad, who is a dentist,
and he asked what I should do. He told me
to take Adville, so I did, and I went back
to sleep. I was still out of it and still
didn't what happened. If I had known, I of course

(01:00:02):
would have called nine one right away. I still carry
so much regret and guilt for not knowing what had
happened in not calling right away, even though I understand
it wouldn't have changed anything, not even if the paramedics
had been right outside the door.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
You know Greg Morris, veteran defense attorney, but today I
think we're on the same side. For once or now,
lawyer at Morse Legal and author of the Untested on Amazon,
Greg that I had no shrink. But I know what that is.
It's survivor's guilt. And she is explaining why she didn't
immediately call nine one one while there were several hours delayed.

(01:00:40):
Because she's been attacked so much in the media. People
have even written online inanely I think she was part
of it. She was not part of it. She just
explained what happened, and who would have imagined it was
a toothache.

Speaker 16 (01:00:57):
You know, people that don't experience things have the biggest
mouths that speak from ignorance, and that's all that is.
I hope that she can put that burden down because
the only person responsible for anything that happened that day
was Brian Kolberger. Not one human in that house had
anything to do with it. They didn't cause it to last.

(01:01:17):
And it's unfortunate that she lived. And she has to
live with that too, right, Her friends and the therapists
and on the panel know this. I mean, she lived,
like you said, survivor's guilt. Her friends are dead, and
now people are attacking her for she should have done X?
How could you not call nine on one? And it's
you know, I think people it's a natural instinct. They

(01:01:38):
filter logical rational choices through trauma, and when trauma happens,
logical rational choices don't. Usually that's the whole point, and
that's what's difficult, And it's if you're going to say
anything negative about someone like that, you're just a loser,
plain and simple. And if you're on a computer doing it,
you're like a loser's loser.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I agree, I agree, Morse. Yeah, Now Morris is talking
about survivor's guilt. Everybody on this panel has seen it
in the courtroom, people that live. But listen to what now.
Bethany is having a friend read this for her in court.
I want you to listen to what she, Bethany relays.

Speaker 19 (01:02:14):
I still think about this every day.

Speaker 15 (01:02:15):
Why me? Why did I get.

Speaker 19 (01:02:18):
To live and not them? For the longest time, I
could not even look at their families without feeling sick
with guilt. I did not know what to say or
what to do. I was terrified that my presence just
made their pain worse, and I was still here when
their kid, their siblings, and their friends. Their loved ones
should have been here instead.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Their loved ones should have been here instead, and not me.
She's going to carry this with her the rest of
her life while Coburger mates the made for TV movie
behind Bars listen to her suffering.

Speaker 19 (01:02:52):
I slept in my parents' room for almost a year.
I made them double lock every door, set an alarm,
check everywhere in the room just in case someone was hiding.
And I still check my room every night before and
I double lock it. I have not slept through a
single night since this happened. I constantly wake up in panics,

(01:03:13):
terrified someone who's breaking in, or someone is here to
hurt me, or I'm about to lose someone else that
I love.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Cheryl McCollum. Final thought.

Speaker 8 (01:03:22):
I think the courage and grace and dignity that we
saw today with every single person that took the podium
was unbelievable. But I also have to say one pretty
gangster move with Ethan's family who didn't show because Brian
Coberg didn't deserfe it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Greg Morris, you and I have saying countless victim impact statements,
but I've got to say the ones today in that
Coburger court room, and well, they weren't like anything I've
ever seen before. But I still believe this case should
have gone to a jury trial. I will always say
that because for the rest of their lives, and just

(01:04:05):
admit it. More so, don't fight with me about this.
You know, the rest of these victims families lives. They're
going to wonder, They're going to wake up in the
middle of the night. They may be driving down the
road when it hit some What was the last thing
she saw, What was the last thing he felt? Did
he think about me before he died?

Speaker 17 (01:04:25):
Well?

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
I ever see them again. They'll never have any of
those answers. Coburger is never going to answer if he
did say anything, which he didn't, it would be a lie.
And the only way they would have found answers is
by a trial.

Speaker 16 (01:04:41):
Well I don't know if they would have found those
answers though, and the prosecution could have absolutely made that
a part of the police so there actually was a
measure of control that the prosecution controlled. But a trial
is not going to, unfortunately, answer a lot of those questions,
and the death penalty.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Would all the questions, all the questions about what happened
that night, whose room did he enter, who was killed first?
Did this one hear that one screaming? What did they
live through? I still wonder that now, after all these years,
what did Keith live through? I don't really know what happened?

(01:05:22):
I mean, and that's something that it happens the rest
of your life.

Speaker 16 (01:05:25):
Morse having been in this situation with a client who
was a family member blamed for a crime Mom killed
dad and blamed the son. Thankfully the son had me
as a lawyer, and to go through and you know,
you're the victim of trauma. There is no right answer
there's nothing that heals that. So you try this, you

(01:05:45):
try that, you think this will give relief, but a
trial will not one thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
I know.

Speaker 16 (01:05:50):
In sex cases and murder cases, you have to be
very delicate on how you we get depositions in Florida.

Speaker 15 (01:05:57):
In criminal cases, you have to be.

Speaker 16 (01:05:59):
Very delicate how you litigate a case when there's a
victim and those two type things are a victim's family,
because you will lose any opportunity to do something decent
for your client in resolving the case. So a trial
will probably only hurt because you're going to get the
horror with maybe one or two of those answers.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
I've never heard an actual victim state a trial only
hurt that Scott Morgan went about it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:25):
You know, Nancy, we've been covering this case since it
happened all this time, and I've got to tell you,
there's this one these one moments that I never would
have counted on that are going to be etched into
my brain. And that's the sound of applause in the courtroom.
I never expected it. I know you've handled a lot

(01:06:45):
of cases, you've been in court, and I'm sure you've
heard applause before. But the fact that the judge gave
them that kind of latitude in there, it kind of,
you know, reinforced these comments that the families are making
relative to Coburger as he's sitting there and everybody's cheering
on and it's almost like you could feel, you could

(01:07:06):
feel this momentum building along the way. And I know
that that's very little recompense after everything that has occurred,
but that one moment, those moments that were captured in there,
of the gallery of plodding in there, these impact statements,
it goes to reinforce that all of the people on

(01:07:28):
social media that are out there, that they come up
with these crackpot conspiracy theories, the people in that courtroom
they're behind these families, They're behind these victims, they support them,
and I think that that's what should be remembered.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Here as we close tonight. I know that there will
never be peace, There will never be peace or closure
for these victims' families, but I do pray for them
with the knowledge that the victims are now resting in peace.

(01:08:07):
Good Night, friend,