May 12, 2021 • 39 mins
One of the most powerful offices in the country is up for grabs this year, and it’s never been held by a woman. It’s the office of Manhattan District Attorney. And Eliza Orlins wants the job. She’s a public defender who’s represented over 3000 New Yorkers and now she’s ready to cross the courtroom aisle and reimagine criminal justice across the US. Oh: and she almost won Survivor.
Join the fight at elizaorlins.com!
Tell your friends about Eliza on social: instagram.com/eorlins and twitter.com/elizaorlins
***
Support the podcast by supporting today’s sponsor. Go to athenaclub.com/criminalbroads for 20% off your new favorite razor.
Or check out: patreon.com/criminalbroads
***
Follow on Instagram: Instagram.com/criminalbroads
Find sources here: criminalbroads.com/sources/episode55
Music: Matthew Noble. Intro and conclusion: “Guilty” by Richard A. Whiting, Harry Akst, and Gus Kahn, sung by Anna Telfer. Ad break: “The Great One Step” by Victor Dance Orchestra, via Free Music Archive, licensed under Public Domain Mark 1.0.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Is it a sin? Is it a crime?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Loving you dear like I do.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
If it's a crime, then I'm guilty, guilty of loving you.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
M Hello, Welcome to another episode of Criminal Broad's a
true crime podcast about wild women on the wrong or
the right side of the law, or simply law adjacent
or maybe law curious. You know what I realized as
I was saying the previous sentence is we don't have
a nickname for ourselves. I feel like every other podcast
(00:40):
in the world is like Hi, squeeb demos, like like
their listeners have a name. So I'm thinking that you
all should go by broadcasters. Hi, Broadcasters, How are you today?
Just kidding? I hate it? Okay, guys, Today we're going
to hear an interview with a woman named Eliza Orleans
(01:03):
and she is running for the position of Manhattan District Attorney.
Now you're probably sitting there in a state that is
not New York thinking, Tory, are you out of your mind?
This is a podcast about criminal broads, many of them
missing rich ladies from nineteen ten. Why should I care
about some random race in Manhattan? Will hear me out?
(01:26):
This is not a random race, and this affects you yes, you,
my beloved broadcaster, just kidding. This is a race though
voting is on June twenty second. It is a race
that no one is really talking about. A lot of
people don't know it's even happening. But it is so
important and so relevant to the entire true crime genre
that we're in every week that I had to dedicate
(01:48):
an entire podcast episode about it. That's how important I
feel this is. So the Manhattan District Attorney, or the
Manhattan DA, as you'll hear said, is legitimately one of
the most power offices in the country. There are elections
for this position every four years, but as I learn
in this interview you'll hear me learning, there's no term
(02:09):
limits here. So there have been only two of these guys,
and they've always been guys since nineteen seventy four. There
have only been two Manhattan District Attorneys since nineteen seventy four.
Sy Vance was the most recent one, and before him,
Robert Morgenthau, both of them very controversial men. So this
is a job with a huge budget, almost one hundred
(02:30):
and seventy million dollars. This is a job that influences
the criminal justice system across the country, Everyone looks up
to the Manhattan DA to see what to do. I
like to call the Manhattan DA the og true crime influencer.
And probably every time I say that, lawyers everywhere cringe.
But if you care about criminal justice reform, which I
(02:51):
know so many of us do, this race is a
big deal. This is a watershed moment. The person who
gets this job could make a huge difference in a
positive way, not just for Manhattan but for the entire country. Okay,
you see what it's so important, You see why we
need to talk about it. So today you're going to
meet one of the candidates, Eliza Orleans. And I love
(03:13):
Eliza's platform and I love her history. She has worked
for a really long time as a public defender. The
public defender. You know what a public defender does, right.
These are the lawyers who help those who don't have
the budget for a really fancy lawyer, and they're the
ones in the trenches dealing with the day to day
horrible grind of the criminal justice system. And so you're
(03:33):
going to hear firsthand from Eliza about the injustices she's witnessed,
the corruption. She's going to talk about coercive plea deals,
which remember we learned all about those in the Sister
Eli episode. So my point is, just because you're in
Missouri or California or Oregon right now or across the seas,
don't think that this episode is irrelevant to you. Whoever
(03:55):
gets this job will affect criminal justice across the country
and history. So if you listen and you like Eliza,
then at the end of the episode, I'll tell you
how you can get involved if you'd like. Okay, and last,
but not least, before the interview, I'd like to shout
out to a very special listener, Logan who listens to
(04:16):
Criminal Broads with his mom Allison, which is so awesome
and I love that. So, Hi Logan, thanks for being
a listener. Hi e Liisa, Welcome to Criminal Broads.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Hi, I'm so excited to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So before we talk about you and your story, could
you tell us what the Manhattan District Attorney does and
why we should care.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Of course, so, the Manhattan DA is the person who
makes all decisions with regards to what crimes get charged,
what crimes don't get charged. You know, whether jail is
sought as a sentence, whether someone has an opportunity for treatment. Basically,
every decision with regards to crimes that are committed within
the Borough of Manhattan are made by the District Attorney.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And why should someone in California or like I have
listeners in Norway, like, why should they care about what's
going on in Manhattan.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, the Manhattan DA is very unique in that the
decisions made by the Manhattan District Attorney have such far
reaching repercussions. I mean, if you think about the fact
that the Manhattan District Attorney's office failed to charge to
Cline to prosecute the Trumps back in twenty thirteen, and
(05:53):
had they done so and that investigation had gone through,
and potentially there would have been, you know, pretty serious
consequences for the crime that were committed in Manhattan. We
might never have had a President Donald J.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Trump.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So that is not just a Manhattan consequence or a
New York consequence or a United States consequence. This is
something that had international repercussions because of who are Manhattan
District Attorney. Is that he's someone who's consistently turned a
blind eye to crimes committed by those who are wealthy
and powerful and well connected. But also on the flip side,
(06:25):
he has over prosecuted people for low level offenses, really
overincarcerated people, including you know, predominantly people of color, lower
income folks, people who are LGBTQIA, people with disabilities, and
that has repercussions too. Because Manhattan should be setting the
gold standard. We could be a place where people look to,
(06:47):
and people do look to Manhattan as the example and say, oh, look,
they're not prosecuting X or y. They're not prosecuting drug
possession or low level offenses that are the result of
poverty or mental illness or substance use disorder, and New
York is actually safer for everyone and more equitable and
more just. But instead they've been doing the reverse. So
(07:10):
in terms of criminal justice reform, you know, we really
could be setting the standard. New York could be a
place that everyone looked to, and really cities like Boston
and Philadelphia and others have moved ahead of us.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, so what New York is doing is for better
or for worse, affecting the rest of the country and
sort of the rest of the world. Not to be
too grandiose, right, you're saying, this is a city that
people look to. They're influenced by so that's why it's
especially important to make sure that the next Manhundie has
a platform that we can all get behind.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Right, exactly exactly, And it is a position that there
are no term limits for has been held by only
white men ever in the history of its existence, and
there has been one transition in my lifetime. So Robert
Morgan Behell was there for thirty six years. Ciban took
over after getting elected in nine and has been there
(08:03):
for the last dozen years. And this is an unbelievable opportunity.
You know, this is a position that people stay in
for a very long time and have a huge impact
on the future of our city.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Oh, I guess I knew it was that long, but
I also didn't know because I recently told someone it
turned over every four years, so which is clearly not right.
Where did I get that from?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Oh, there's an election every four years, but it at
least historically has not turned over.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I see, I see.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
You know, Sidance being there only three terms is actually
a short tenure compared to his predecessor.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Right, Yeah, wow, that's crazy. Let's take a quick break
to hear from this episode's sponsor Athena Club. Okay, if
you were in my bathroom. First of all, I'd be like,
why are you in my bathroom? And then I'd be like, Oh,
(08:57):
you just need to wash your hands, sole that's totally fine.
And then I'd be like, do you like my bright
yellow shower curtain? And then you would notice that I
have this adorable coral colored razor with a cool magnetic
like hanging thing in my shower, and you'd be like,
tell me all about it, and I'd say, that's the
razor from Athena Club. I would tell you that I,
as a lifelong near criminal husband razor stealer, have finally
(09:22):
found a razor all for myself. Athena Club's razor makes
shaving uncomplicated. It's gentle on skin, it's really easy to use.
It's designed for the legs of the ladies. And the
razor kit is only nine dollars and you can pick
your own handle color and you get an extra blade
(09:42):
head and a magnetic hook for storage. So if you
want to be like me with a really cool razor
all of your very own hanging in your shower, show
your skin you care and get the Athena Club razor Kit.
If you sign up today, you'll get twenty percent off
your first order because I love you. Just go to
a Aena club dot com and use promo code broads.
(10:03):
That's a t h e n A c l U
b athena club dot com with promo code broads for
twenty percent off. Okay, so let's go back in time
now and talk about you. I'd love to know about
(10:25):
where you grew up. What was your childhood like? Did
you always want to be a lawyer?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I was born and raised in Manhattan. My mom says
I started saying I wanted to be a lawyer when
I was three. I think there was a point in
time when I wanted to be a lawyer slash gymnast,
of course, because I love gymnastics, so I was like,
I'll just be a gymnast on the side. But I
always knew I wanted to be a lawyer, And when
I was in college, I figured out what type of
(10:52):
lawyer I wanted to be. You know, I spent a
summer working at the Legal Aid Society and the Criminal
Defense practice at the Public Defender's Office here in Manhattan,
and one week in I was like, Yep, this is it.
I found my calling. This is what I'm going to
do with my life one hundred percent. I had no
doubts about it, and so everything I did from that
point forward was to get my job. And I only
(11:12):
applied for one job out of law school, which I
tell law students don't do that. It's very risky, you know.
I remember in my final round interview with the head
of my office, he was like, all right, Eliza, will
so great meeting you. You know, let us know if
you get any other job offers. And I said, oh,
will that enhanced my application? And he said no, no,
we just want to be kept surprized if we thinking
(11:33):
of taking another job. I said, in that case, you
should know there won't be other job offers. All my
eggs one basket. This was it. This was what I
was going to do for life. And obviously, you know,
things have taken a different turn than I expected, but
this was certainly not something I could have anticipated.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, but you know, three year old, you sort of
saw this whole arc coming, other than the gymnast part. Well,
actually that brings me to my next question. You're not
not but athletic, shall we say? You have a storied
career also in reality TV, and you've went on Survivor,
et cetera. So tell us about that, like, was that
(12:10):
happening while you were working as a public defender or
what was the timeline there.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Nope, Survivor came about. I started watching the first season
when I was in high school. And I remember watching
season one and saying to my mom, Oh my god,
I love this show. I'm going to go beyond that show.
And she was like, of course, you are, sweetheart, you
can do anything. And I've a very sweet, encouraging mom,
(12:36):
but she now says, be careful what you tell your kids,
because they believe you. And I applied for the show
as soon as I turned twenty one, got cast nearly
two decades ago, and was on the show. And you know,
it felt like this really fun, interesting thing, this way
to challenge myself, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally. It really
(12:56):
pushes you to your breaking points. And it's not fun
in the classic sense of the word, but it's an experience. Yeah,
And I, you know, met incredible people and was lucky
enough to get to do that.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, and you got pretty far right, you were fourth, Yeah,
thirty seven nine days. Good for you. And then were
you also on the amazing Race. I was.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I wasn't survivor a second time. The you know, when
CBS calls me and says, do you want another shot
at you know, one in twenty shot at a million bucks,
You're like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Right, am I to say no? My three younger siblings
applied to be on The Amazing Race as like a
little sibling duo, but didn't quite get it. Oh no,
but how was it? Was it miserable? Yeah? Miserable. I'll
tell them that.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I don't know how they make it looks fun on TV.
I mean, listen, it's also you know, an interesting experience, challenging, whatever,
but it's entertainment. So it's not like you're getting to
do things in these countries. You're just like, go go go,
and and as opposed to a survivor, where it feels
like you have some self determination in how things turn out,
(14:07):
Race like leaves a lot more to chance, and you
get a taxi driver who doesn't know where you're going,
and it's just it's extremely stressful.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I was just going to say, I'm getting at stressed
just hearing you talk about I'm like, I would totally
get that taxi driver. My shoulders are creeping up towards
my years. So let's go back to your career as
(14:42):
a public defender. You started out at the Legal Aid Society.
It's a public defender's office here in Manhattan. Yes, yes,
and they're great. And so where do we even start
with that? You've defended three thousand New Yorkers I have.
Are there stories that stick in your mind for any reason,
like extreme and justice whatever? What pops out?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
A story I sometimes tell, which is something that was
from my first year as a public defender, and it's
something that the case itself is so ordinary, but you know,
I think it just really kind of shows quite well,
like why I have continued to feel such you know,
heartbreak and frustration and anger with the way our criminal
legal system operates. And I represented a man he was
(15:26):
fifty years old. I met him in night court. I
walked in and he was an assistant manager at a Christinies,
which is a grocery store here in Manhattan. And he
was working at the same grocery store for twenty five years,
had made his way up to assistant manager. And the
night before he was closing up the store. It was
around eleven PM, and he bought two bags of groceries
(15:48):
with his employee discount and walked over to the train
to go home to his family. He gets on an
uncrowded subway car, puts his groceries on the seats next
to him, and prepares for his long ride home. At
the one hundred and twenty fifth Street stop, the door's
open to uniformed NYPD officers get on the train. They
grab his groceries, dump them to the ground, and place
(16:09):
him in handcuffs and take him to jail for the
night for the crime of occupying multiple seats on a
transit facility, taking up two seats on the subway on
an uncrowded on an uncrowded train, closing train. YEP, that case.
It explains why I just found that this criminal legal
(16:30):
system is so cruel and unjust, and it's got nothing
to do with public safety. It's not keeping us safe,
locking up people like my client, you know, for what
you know. So that's kind of what has led to
me ending up running for Manhattan DA because of cases
like his.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Definitely want to talk more about like your vision for
the DA's office, But I'm feeling like a conspiracy vibe,
like for your client, were the cops somehow tipped off
or something. How did they happen to just burst through
the train then and there? Do you happen to know.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
They probably are just hanging out in the one hundred
and twenty fifth Street subway stop. I mean I was
there the other day and saw eight cops hanging out
on the platform, and they're just trying to make arrests
and they see someone. I mean, I'll give you one
guess as to the race of my client, and they
just will make arrests. They can make arrests for anything.
But yet, yet, if you think about, you know, the
(17:23):
things that I've seen my clients get arrested for, it's
they're things that as a white woman, I know I
would never be arrested for. Obstruction of a park bench
is a crime. Literally, if you lay down on a
park bench in New York City, you're committing an unclassified misdemeanor.
If I were laying down on a park bench, maybe
a police officer would come up to me. But if
he did, which he probably wouldn't. Keep be like misses everything, Okay,
(17:45):
do you need something?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Can I help you?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Oh yeah, Well, after a different experience than my clients
who get like grabbed and violently based down on the sidewalk, handcuffs,
you know, taken to jail.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, of course. I mean I myself have definitely taken
up more than one subway seat. I've just started taking
my baby on the subway, so I'm there with a
stroller and a very wiggly toddler, and we like, if
we're only taking up two seats, that's a good day.
So yeah, I mean it's a complete double standard, which
I don't think anyone listening to this is going to
be surprised by. On this podcast, we've started learning about
(18:34):
coercive plea deals, and we just covered a case of
a woman who, and I'm sure you have defended a
lot of people like this, you know, she was really
strong armed into taking a plea deal for some very weird,
trumped up charge, like she had been in bed at
home seven months pregnant when her husband was at a
party where someone was murdered, and she ended up having
(18:55):
to take a plea deal for like impeding prosecution in
the second degree or something thing. Any anecdotes about plea
deals that you can share with us.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Oh my gosh, so many the plea situation like this
course of plea bargaining that exists is so devastating because
it really deprives people of their constitutional rights to challenge
the search, the seizure, to challenge the evidence against them.
And people see the depiction of the criminal legal system
(19:26):
on television in movies and they think everything is a trial.
But the reality is nine percent of misdemeanors in like
ninety four percent of polonies or something like that result
in please. And I have told clients to take please,
who were probably innocent of the charges. Saying that out
loud like sounds so it sounds so terrible. But you
(19:48):
can tell a client, can I can lay out the
evidence and say, this is what's going to happen. This
is what is going to be said at trial. This
is what they're going to say, even if they're not
telling the truth. This is what the jury the judge
is going to see, and especially if it's a police
officer testifying. And yes, the rhetoric is changing and people
are understanding more now something that I've known my whole career,
(20:11):
which is that test a lying is a real thing
that police are happy to get on the stands where
to tell the truth, the whole truth, is nothing but
the truth, say I do, and then lie under oath.
It's been a very difficult road to try to convince
people that a police officer who comes in in uniform,
who's like, I'm here to protect them, sir, is lying
under oath. And so when I say a police officer's
(20:32):
going to come in and say X, Y and Z,
and people are going to believe them. But that's not true.
And I'm like, I know, but you're facing decades in
prison and right now they're offering you probation, and I
think you should take it. It's heart wrenching, but it's the
reality of the system that exists. Listen, these are all
things that I want to change as district attorneys. Are
things that the DA has the ability to change. You know,
(20:52):
this trial tax, this hearing tax. Gosh, I'm trying to
think of a case. So I had a client again,
Like these are such like run of mail cases. We
called them abso drug sales like an observation drug sale.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Like a cop observing a drug sale.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Okay, it's not like a what we call a buy
and bust where someone is selling to an undercover police officer.
But it's like an observation drug sale, and the police
officer testified or the allegations were rather that my client
was sitting in a suva like a hire up vehicle,
(21:28):
and that someone got in his car, that they saw
him hand drugs to the person, and then they pulled
him out of the vehicle, searched him and found nineteen
vagues of crack cocaine.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Or something like that.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
We knew that this search was unconstitutional. One I knew
that this was a black man who happened to be
sitting in a car and was illegally searched by the police.
He was facing a minimum of I think that it
was two and a half years in state prison for this,
but the DA was offering probation before the hearing, and
(22:03):
I said to him, you know, listen, even though you
and I both know that challenging this is extremely difficult,
but that what they did was unjust and a violation
of your Fourth Amendment rights, I still think you should
probably take the probation. And he's like, I didn't sell it,
and sell like, I don't know, I'm not I want
to go forward. And he was out of jail at
the time, and I was like, they're going to put
(22:24):
you in jail. You're going to go to prison, like
if we lose, and he's like, I don't care, I
want to do this. We do this hearing, and the
police officer the way in which they would have to
show that he saw this search is what he says
is someone gets in the car, they leave the door
slightly open so that overhead lights are on in the car,
and then you know, the dashboard comes up to basically
(22:45):
chest levels so that my client lifts his hand up
above his head to hand drugs over to the person
who got in his vehicle. I mean, it is patently absurd.
It's clearly testimony that is tailored to nullify constitutional objection.
And I had a investigator get that type of car
take photographs because the cop said he was standing on
(23:06):
the street you can basically see neck up so he
would literally had to reach his hand up to hand
these drugs over. And really truly believed that the judge
was going to suppress because it just was so outrageous
that it was truly outrageous testimony that was incredible. It
was not credible testimony.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Right, literally incredible. It's like an snl skit of like
a really dopey drug dealer who wants to get caught
or something like that, kind of lifting your hand really
high to make sure everyone can see the bag and.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Even the door open to the lights in the car.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, yes, I mean it's it's slapstick.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
It slapstick. And the judge was asking a bunch of
questions and it really seemed as though he was going
to rule in our favor. Oh no, you know, he said,
I'll come back tomorrow. I'm going to like render my decision.
And he said, I'm not suppressing these drugs. I think
that the police officer testimony was credible, and we didn't
have a trial defense. We were really going for the
(24:05):
hearing here. Yeah, and the DA recommended five years after
the hearing and wanted him to waive appeal, meaning no
one would be able to review the hearing on appeal.
And thankfully the judge didn't make us wave appeal, and
my client ended up taking the minimum, which was the
two and a half, and we expedited the appeal and
(24:28):
by the way, within a matter of months, I mean,
he probably spent close to a year in jail, but
we found out that this police officer had previously perjured
himself had lied in other cases and that had not
been disclosed to us to challenge his credibility, and so
(24:49):
they ended up having to vacate the conviction. I mean,
it was this whole crazy story, and he ended up
getting I think time served rather than us retrying the
case because he'd already served year at that point. But
like it's such a small example, like he was going
to get probation beforehand, and then the do I recommend
five years because we challenge the constitutionality of this lying
(25:11):
cop violating my client's worth amendment rights.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, that's absurd, and like you said, it's also ordinary.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Right, happens every day.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Right, I'm assuming that was a pretty typical days, weeks
of work for you. Months. I don't know how long
it took, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
You know this guy I said to him, I was like,
this takes a great deal of courage to say I
want to go forward with this hearing, you know, knowing
that the chips are stacked against us always because judges
tend to side with police officers. It's very difficult to
take on these types of cases.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah. I was gonna ask if you'd come up against
corruption in the NYPD and you've already given an example.
What's your take on the NYPD as a system if
you become Manhattan DA, Like, how much authority do you
have over the NYPD and what can we do about it? Wow,
(26:24):
minor question.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Exactly, Well, so the District Attorney doesn't actually have control
of the NYPD. We don't actually have the ability to
make changes within the departments. But the police for so
long have been just operating with no consequences, just doing
whatever they want, whether it be the rutalization we see
(26:46):
of people in the street, or the perjury in the courthouse,
or the false arrests or falsifying of documents. There are
really no consequences for the NYPD, And so I really believe,
and it's true the Manhattan District Attorney's office has been
complicit in the continuing misconduct of the NYPD. There has
to be a very serious police accountability unit, and I've
(27:09):
laid out my plans to create this unit and really
hold police officers accountable for their behavior. And it would
have to be one that was independent, because the NYPD
still is like bringing you the arrests for other cases
and everything else. But it really has to hold the
police accountable for acting illegally, for addressing all of these
(27:30):
different types of police misconduct, and making sure that that
information is out there, that there's a database of police
officers who are committing misconduct and making sure that they
are accountable. To New Yorkers, there's a right to know.
Things like what happened with the case I was just
telling you about wouldn't have happened had there been a
database where I was able to look up this police
(27:51):
officer and say, oh, there has been other times when
there have been either credible misconduct allegations or someone who
has previously been found to have perjured themselves. This wrongdoing
is something that has to be brought to light.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, it's crazy to me that you weren't able to
access that information. I mean, that's so relevant. As a
public defender, do you just have to sort of hope
that someone will bring the information to you, like that
the cop has previously perjured himself. What tools do you
have there?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Yeah, we have to hope. You have to hope that
the Manhattan Die's Office tells us that they let us
know that it is actually going on. I mean, they're
supposed to under the law, they're supposed to, but that
doesn't mean that they will.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Did you have like a come to Jesus moment where
you're like, Okay, I'm going to run for Manhattan DA
because this is such a big change for you from
your work as a public defender.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Right certainly, and it's something that I never anticipated doing.
The idea of being a prosecutor was never one that
was appealing to me. I always just wanted to be
a public defender, and I thought I would be a
public defender for life. This really came about over these
last few handful of years because our country is finally
(29:21):
coming to a reckoning with how cruel and unjust and
systemically racist our criminal legal system is the fact that
it's not keeping us safe, that massive incarceration has never
provided the public safety that people want, nor will it ever.
It's wasting tax payer money, it's over prosecuting the level
offenses and not holding people accountable for serious crimes. And
(29:42):
that we can do better, and that people are realizing
that and they're ready for it, and we're having these
national conversations about criminal justice reform in a way that
when I began as a public defender a dozen years ago,
I never could have imagined.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
That's good. That's hopeful, Yeah, hopeful, Yeah, yeah yeah. Did
you feel ever like you were going over to enemy lines?
Not to phrase it too extremely, Are you nervous.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Of course, because when I start thinking about what it's
going to be like to take over that office and
to actually bring these prosecutions, I mean, of course, it's
something that is challenging to think about. I mean I
was talking to a reporter recently and he's like, Eliza,
you realize you sometimes say the word prosecutor with disdain.
You know that, right, and you know what position you're
(30:50):
running for. I'm like, I do, But that's the whole
thing that I want to change what it means to
be a prosecutor. You know, I'm not running to be
like a good prosecutor. I'm running because I want to
figure out ways to systemically change the way a prosecutor's
office operates, to think about how we can limit the
reach of the prosecutor's office and not just beat a
(31:12):
progressive prosecutor who still ends up being the primary driver
of mass incarceration of people of color.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I wanted to talk about this line from your website
that I loved. You said that as district attorney, I
will categorically decline to prosecute all violations and the vast
majority of misdemeanors. So what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
So the overwhelming majority of cases that come through are
low level offenses, you know, things like what I was
talking about, like taking up two seats on the subway,
laying down on a park bench, jumping a turnstile, minor
drug possession charges. And that constitutes probably more than seventy
five percent of the cases that come through. So when
people think about the criminal legal system, like people who
(32:08):
are getting prosecuted are committing serious crimes, it's not true.
You know, so much of what the criminal legal system
is is really just prosecuting these low level offenses, and
it's not keeping us safe. It's not addressing the root causes.
It's not addressing the issues people are facing, you know,
whether it be that their need of substance use to
sort of treatment of mental health treatment, whether they're experiencing homelessness.
(32:31):
Locking those people up is never going to solve any
of those societal problems. So what I want to do
is just shift the focus, shift the resources, make sure
we are focusing on serious crimes, and we'll be able
to do that by discontinuing the prosecution of things that
are violations, not even crimes, you know that's below a
misdemeanor and most misdemeanors, because that's just not the way
(32:53):
our criminal legal system should operate.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, So I think this is good to hear for
people who are caught up on this idea that prosecuting less,
limiting the amount of people who come in contact with
the criminal justice system is somehow letting the serial killers
go free in the streets. Right. I sense that fear
sometimes in people, and what you're saying is, like, no,
seventy five percent of cases are the guy with the
(33:17):
grocery bags on the subway, Exactly. If we do not
prosecute that guy, we're not making anyone's lives more endangered, exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
And in fact, what we're doing by prosecuting cases like
that is making people's lives more dangerous, because when someone
is locked up, when they're incarcerating, even if it's just
for a matter of a few days, we upend that
person's life.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
And I've seen that as a public defender. You know,
someone misses work for three days, they end up losing
their job, and then they can't pay their rent, they
lose their home. If they're single parents, they lose their kids,
they lose everything they've ever worked for. So of course
it makes sense that if someone gets locked up, gets prosecuted,
it is more likely that they will end up having
future contact with the criminal legal system then if we
(34:01):
didn't prosecute that person.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, it's so common sense.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
This is why we need you exactly before I let
you go, what could you use from criminal broads listeners
to help you win this race? What would be the
most helpful.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
We are running the only grassroots campaign for Manhattan DA.
You know, we have, as of the last filing, made
over seventy three hundred individual contributions. Average donation is under
one hundred dollars, and we are running against people who
are millionaires and billionaires, truly, and the max contribution per
(34:40):
individual donor, which is something I'm sure your listeners don't
know because it is absolutely wild, is thirty five thousand
dollars per person. And so there are people who are
taking millions and millions of dollars from max out donors,
from people who supported Donald Trump and Ted Cruz and
Josh Holly, and these are people who are trying to
buy this seat so that they can continue to perpetuate
(35:03):
the status quote and make sure they are not held
accountable people on Wall Street, which also happens to be
in Manhattan, by the way, So that's something that Manhattan
DA is responsible for looking into and investigating and holding
people accountable if they're committing crimes. So, you know, we
always need donations. So if people go to Eliza orlans
dot com and can contribute, even if it's five dollars
(35:24):
or twenty dollars, you know, we're so grateful. And we
also need volunteers. We have an absolute unbelievable network of volunteers.
We have this grassroots army of people. If you're in
New York, we're out doing canvassing. We are talking to
people on the street. But we have phone banks and
text banks and I have good thanks and we're doing those
on Zoom and we have volunteers from across the country
(35:45):
sign up to volunteer. We need your help to get
the message out because when people here, there's only one
public defender running, and that's what we need to make
these changes. We also desperately want to see they're so
excited to get involved and they want to support. We
just need to make sure they know I'm running.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
All right, everyone, thank you for listening. If you're as
fired up as I am, go to Eliza Orleans dot com.
That's E L I Z A O R L I
n s dot com, or you can look for the
link in my show notes and there on her website.
You can help in several ways. You can donate, of course,
you can volunteer to make phone calls or do a
(36:36):
text bank, and perhaps most effectively, you can tell your
friends who live in New York City to vote in
this race for Manhattan DA on June twenty second. Okay,
this is one of those races where it's actually really
easy to not even know it's happening. And I totally
understand if that's you, if that's your friend who lives
in New York. But that's why it can make such
(36:56):
a difference to send your friend a text just being like, hey,
this podcast listen to is yelling at me, and she
says you have to go vote. Unlike we learned a
couple episodes ago, this is a race where a couple
of thousand votes can actually make all the difference in
a world so if you text one or two friends
who live in New York, and maybe you post about
it on Instagram, you can tag Eliza on Instagram. We
(37:16):
could literally help her win, and then you know, she'll
be legally obligated to make a special criminal Broad's office
in the DA's office where we can go and look
at all the creepy old case files from the nineteen twenties,
which is all any of us really want, right Just
kidding obviously, but anyway, check it out Eliza orlans dot com. Also,
thank you to this episode's patrons for helping me out.
(37:39):
Carol P. Jasmine F. Thank you so much for your support.
And if you all would like to listen to an
episode of another podcast that's about a woman from my
book Confident Women, check out the most recent episode of
the podcast Strange Country. They talk about Bonnie Lee Bakley,
who is one of the saddest women in my most
(38:00):
recent book. Okay, let me tell you what you can
expect next episode. We're doing a bit of a shake
it up format. Okay, next episode is what I'm calling
my update episode. That might sound really boring, but it
actually is coming together way more effectively than I thought.
And I'm really excited. I went back through all the
(38:22):
women that we've talked about on this podcast to see
if there was any more news about them, you know,
anything that had changed since the episode came out, And
what do you know, There is a lot of new
news to say about some of these women, and some
of it is really really chilling. So meet me back
(38:42):
here in a week and we're going to sort of
like look at a bunch of broads at once and
come to some tragic and poignant conclusions. See you there,
same time, same place. All right, Love you guys, Thanks
for being the best listeners ever. Bye.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Maybe I'm ru and maybe I'm wrong loving you dear
like I do. If it's a crime, then I'm guilty,
guilty of loving you.
Is it a sin? Is it a crime?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Loving you dear like I do.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
If it's a crime, then I'm guilty, guilty of loving you.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
M Hello, Welcome to another episode of Criminal Broad's a
true crime podcast about wild women on the wrong or
the right side of the law, or simply law adjacent
or maybe law curious. You know what I realized as
I was saying the previous sentence is we don't have
a nickname for ourselves. I feel like every other podcast
(00:40):
in the world is like Hi, squeeb demos, like like
their listeners have a name. So I'm thinking that you
all should go by broadcasters. Hi, Broadcasters, How are you today?
Just kidding? I hate it? Okay, guys, Today we're going
to hear an interview with a woman named Eliza Orleans
(01:03):
and she is running for the position of Manhattan District Attorney.
Now you're probably sitting there in a state that is
not New York thinking, Tory, are you out of your mind?
This is a podcast about criminal broads, many of them
missing rich ladies from nineteen ten. Why should I care
about some random race in Manhattan? Will hear me out?
(01:26):
This is not a random race, and this affects you yes, you,
my beloved broadcaster, just kidding. This is a race though
voting is on June twenty second. It is a race
that no one is really talking about. A lot of
people don't know it's even happening. But it is so
important and so relevant to the entire true crime genre
that we're in every week that I had to dedicate
(01:48):
an entire podcast episode about it. That's how important I
feel this is. So the Manhattan District Attorney, or the
Manhattan DA, as you'll hear said, is legitimately one of
the most power offices in the country. There are elections
for this position every four years, but as I learn
in this interview you'll hear me learning, there's no term
(02:09):
limits here. So there have been only two of these guys,
and they've always been guys since nineteen seventy four. There
have only been two Manhattan District Attorneys since nineteen seventy four.
Sy Vance was the most recent one, and before him,
Robert Morgenthau, both of them very controversial men. So this
is a job with a huge budget, almost one hundred
(02:30):
and seventy million dollars. This is a job that influences
the criminal justice system across the country, Everyone looks up
to the Manhattan DA to see what to do. I
like to call the Manhattan DA the og true crime influencer.
And probably every time I say that, lawyers everywhere cringe.
But if you care about criminal justice reform, which I
(02:51):
know so many of us do, this race is a
big deal. This is a watershed moment. The person who
gets this job could make a huge difference in a
positive way, not just for Manhattan but for the entire country. Okay,
you see what it's so important, You see why we
need to talk about it. So today you're going to
meet one of the candidates, Eliza Orleans. And I love
(03:13):
Eliza's platform and I love her history. She has worked
for a really long time as a public defender. The
public defender. You know what a public defender does, right.
These are the lawyers who help those who don't have
the budget for a really fancy lawyer, and they're the
ones in the trenches dealing with the day to day
horrible grind of the criminal justice system. And so you're
(03:33):
going to hear firsthand from Eliza about the injustices she's witnessed,
the corruption. She's going to talk about coercive plea deals,
which remember we learned all about those in the Sister
Eli episode. So my point is, just because you're in
Missouri or California or Oregon right now or across the seas,
don't think that this episode is irrelevant to you. Whoever
(03:55):
gets this job will affect criminal justice across the country
and history. So if you listen and you like Eliza,
then at the end of the episode, I'll tell you
how you can get involved if you'd like. Okay, and last,
but not least, before the interview, I'd like to shout
out to a very special listener, Logan who listens to
(04:16):
Criminal Broads with his mom Allison, which is so awesome
and I love that. So, Hi Logan, thanks for being
a listener. Hi e Liisa, Welcome to Criminal Broads.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Hi, I'm so excited to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So before we talk about you and your story, could
you tell us what the Manhattan District Attorney does and
why we should care.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Of course, so, the Manhattan DA is the person who
makes all decisions with regards to what crimes get charged,
what crimes don't get charged. You know, whether jail is
sought as a sentence, whether someone has an opportunity for treatment. Basically,
every decision with regards to crimes that are committed within
the Borough of Manhattan are made by the District Attorney.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And why should someone in California or like I have
listeners in Norway, like, why should they care about what's
going on in Manhattan.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, the Manhattan DA is very unique in that the
decisions made by the Manhattan District Attorney have such far
reaching repercussions. I mean, if you think about the fact
that the Manhattan District Attorney's office failed to charge to
Cline to prosecute the Trumps back in twenty thirteen, and
(05:53):
had they done so and that investigation had gone through,
and potentially there would have been, you know, pretty serious
consequences for the crime that were committed in Manhattan. We
might never have had a President Donald J.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Trump.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So that is not just a Manhattan consequence or a
New York consequence or a United States consequence. This is
something that had international repercussions because of who are Manhattan
District Attorney. Is that he's someone who's consistently turned a
blind eye to crimes committed by those who are wealthy
and powerful and well connected. But also on the flip side,
(06:25):
he has over prosecuted people for low level offenses, really
overincarcerated people, including you know, predominantly people of color, lower
income folks, people who are LGBTQIA, people with disabilities, and
that has repercussions too. Because Manhattan should be setting the
gold standard. We could be a place where people look to,
(06:47):
and people do look to Manhattan as the example and say, oh, look,
they're not prosecuting X or y. They're not prosecuting drug
possession or low level offenses that are the result of
poverty or mental illness or substance use disorder, and New
York is actually safer for everyone and more equitable and
more just. But instead they've been doing the reverse. So
(07:10):
in terms of criminal justice reform, you know, we really
could be setting the standard. New York could be a
place that everyone looked to, and really cities like Boston
and Philadelphia and others have moved ahead of us.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, so what New York is doing is for better
or for worse, affecting the rest of the country and
sort of the rest of the world. Not to be
too grandiose, right, you're saying, this is a city that
people look to. They're influenced by so that's why it's
especially important to make sure that the next Manhundie has
a platform that we can all get behind.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Right, exactly exactly, And it is a position that there
are no term limits for has been held by only
white men ever in the history of its existence, and
there has been one transition in my lifetime. So Robert
Morgan Behell was there for thirty six years. Ciban took
over after getting elected in nine and has been there
(08:03):
for the last dozen years. And this is an unbelievable opportunity.
You know, this is a position that people stay in
for a very long time and have a huge impact
on the future of our city.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Oh, I guess I knew it was that long, but
I also didn't know because I recently told someone it
turned over every four years, so which is clearly not right.
Where did I get that from?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Oh, there's an election every four years, but it at
least historically has not turned over.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I see, I see.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
You know, Sidance being there only three terms is actually
a short tenure compared to his predecessor.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Right, Yeah, wow, that's crazy. Let's take a quick break
to hear from this episode's sponsor Athena Club. Okay, if
you were in my bathroom. First of all, I'd be like,
why are you in my bathroom? And then I'd be like, Oh,
(08:57):
you just need to wash your hands, sole that's totally fine.
And then I'd be like, do you like my bright
yellow shower curtain? And then you would notice that I
have this adorable coral colored razor with a cool magnetic
like hanging thing in my shower, and you'd be like,
tell me all about it, and I'd say, that's the
razor from Athena Club. I would tell you that I,
as a lifelong near criminal husband razor stealer, have finally
(09:22):
found a razor all for myself. Athena Club's razor makes
shaving uncomplicated. It's gentle on skin, it's really easy to use.
It's designed for the legs of the ladies. And the
razor kit is only nine dollars and you can pick
your own handle color and you get an extra blade
(09:42):
head and a magnetic hook for storage. So if you
want to be like me with a really cool razor
all of your very own hanging in your shower, show
your skin you care and get the Athena Club razor Kit.
If you sign up today, you'll get twenty percent off
your first order because I love you. Just go to
a Aena club dot com and use promo code broads.
(10:03):
That's a t h e n A c l U
b athena club dot com with promo code broads for
twenty percent off. Okay, so let's go back in time
now and talk about you. I'd love to know about
(10:25):
where you grew up. What was your childhood like? Did
you always want to be a lawyer?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I was born and raised in Manhattan. My mom says
I started saying I wanted to be a lawyer when
I was three. I think there was a point in
time when I wanted to be a lawyer slash gymnast,
of course, because I love gymnastics, so I was like,
I'll just be a gymnast on the side. But I
always knew I wanted to be a lawyer, And when
I was in college, I figured out what type of
(10:52):
lawyer I wanted to be. You know, I spent a
summer working at the Legal Aid Society and the Criminal
Defense practice at the Public Defender's Office here in Manhattan,
and one week in I was like, Yep, this is it.
I found my calling. This is what I'm going to
do with my life one hundred percent. I had no
doubts about it, and so everything I did from that
point forward was to get my job. And I only
(11:12):
applied for one job out of law school, which I
tell law students don't do that. It's very risky, you know.
I remember in my final round interview with the head
of my office, he was like, all right, Eliza, will
so great meeting you. You know, let us know if
you get any other job offers. And I said, oh,
will that enhanced my application? And he said no, no,
we just want to be kept surprized if we thinking
(11:33):
of taking another job. I said, in that case, you
should know there won't be other job offers. All my
eggs one basket. This was it. This was what I
was going to do for life. And obviously, you know,
things have taken a different turn than I expected, but
this was certainly not something I could have anticipated.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, but you know, three year old, you sort of
saw this whole arc coming, other than the gymnast part. Well,
actually that brings me to my next question. You're not
not but athletic, shall we say? You have a storied
career also in reality TV, and you've went on Survivor,
et cetera. So tell us about that, like, was that
(12:10):
happening while you were working as a public defender or
what was the timeline there.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Nope, Survivor came about. I started watching the first season
when I was in high school. And I remember watching
season one and saying to my mom, Oh my god,
I love this show. I'm going to go beyond that show.
And she was like, of course, you are, sweetheart, you
can do anything. And I've a very sweet, encouraging mom,
(12:36):
but she now says, be careful what you tell your kids,
because they believe you. And I applied for the show
as soon as I turned twenty one, got cast nearly
two decades ago, and was on the show. And you know,
it felt like this really fun, interesting thing, this way
to challenge myself, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally. It really
(12:56):
pushes you to your breaking points. And it's not fun
in the classic sense of the word, but it's an experience. Yeah,
And I, you know, met incredible people and was lucky
enough to get to do that.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, and you got pretty far right, you were fourth, Yeah,
thirty seven nine days. Good for you. And then were
you also on the amazing Race. I was.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I wasn't survivor a second time. The you know, when
CBS calls me and says, do you want another shot
at you know, one in twenty shot at a million bucks,
You're like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Right, am I to say no? My three younger siblings
applied to be on The Amazing Race as like a
little sibling duo, but didn't quite get it. Oh no,
but how was it? Was it miserable? Yeah? Miserable. I'll
tell them that.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I don't know how they make it looks fun on TV.
I mean, listen, it's also you know, an interesting experience, challenging, whatever,
but it's entertainment. So it's not like you're getting to
do things in these countries. You're just like, go go go,
and and as opposed to a survivor, where it feels
like you have some self determination in how things turn out,
(14:07):
Race like leaves a lot more to chance, and you
get a taxi driver who doesn't know where you're going,
and it's just it's extremely stressful.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I was just going to say, I'm getting at stressed
just hearing you talk about I'm like, I would totally
get that taxi driver. My shoulders are creeping up towards
my years. So let's go back to your career as
(14:42):
a public defender. You started out at the Legal Aid Society.
It's a public defender's office here in Manhattan. Yes, yes,
and they're great. And so where do we even start
with that? You've defended three thousand New Yorkers I have.
Are there stories that stick in your mind for any reason,
like extreme and justice whatever? What pops out?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
A story I sometimes tell, which is something that was
from my first year as a public defender, and it's
something that the case itself is so ordinary, but you know,
I think it just really kind of shows quite well,
like why I have continued to feel such you know,
heartbreak and frustration and anger with the way our criminal
legal system operates. And I represented a man he was
(15:26):
fifty years old. I met him in night court. I
walked in and he was an assistant manager at a Christinies,
which is a grocery store here in Manhattan. And he
was working at the same grocery store for twenty five years,
had made his way up to assistant manager. And the
night before he was closing up the store. It was
around eleven PM, and he bought two bags of groceries
(15:48):
with his employee discount and walked over to the train
to go home to his family. He gets on an
uncrowded subway car, puts his groceries on the seats next
to him, and prepares for his long ride home. At
the one hundred and twenty fifth Street stop, the door's
open to uniformed NYPD officers get on the train. They
grab his groceries, dump them to the ground, and place
(16:09):
him in handcuffs and take him to jail for the
night for the crime of occupying multiple seats on a
transit facility, taking up two seats on the subway on
an uncrowded on an uncrowded train, closing train. YEP, that case.
It explains why I just found that this criminal legal
(16:30):
system is so cruel and unjust, and it's got nothing
to do with public safety. It's not keeping us safe,
locking up people like my client, you know, for what
you know. So that's kind of what has led to
me ending up running for Manhattan DA because of cases
like his.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Definitely want to talk more about like your vision for
the DA's office, But I'm feeling like a conspiracy vibe,
like for your client, were the cops somehow tipped off
or something. How did they happen to just burst through
the train then and there? Do you happen to know.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
They probably are just hanging out in the one hundred
and twenty fifth Street subway stop. I mean I was
there the other day and saw eight cops hanging out
on the platform, and they're just trying to make arrests
and they see someone. I mean, I'll give you one
guess as to the race of my client, and they
just will make arrests. They can make arrests for anything.
But yet, yet, if you think about, you know, the
(17:23):
things that I've seen my clients get arrested for, it's
they're things that as a white woman, I know I
would never be arrested for. Obstruction of a park bench
is a crime. Literally, if you lay down on a
park bench in New York City, you're committing an unclassified misdemeanor.
If I were laying down on a park bench, maybe
a police officer would come up to me. But if
he did, which he probably wouldn't. Keep be like misses everything, Okay,
(17:45):
do you need something?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Can I help you?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Oh yeah, Well, after a different experience than my clients
who get like grabbed and violently based down on the sidewalk, handcuffs,
you know, taken to jail.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, of course. I mean I myself have definitely taken
up more than one subway seat. I've just started taking
my baby on the subway, so I'm there with a
stroller and a very wiggly toddler, and we like, if
we're only taking up two seats, that's a good day.
So yeah, I mean it's a complete double standard, which
I don't think anyone listening to this is going to
be surprised by. On this podcast, we've started learning about
(18:34):
coercive plea deals, and we just covered a case of
a woman who, and I'm sure you have defended a
lot of people like this, you know, she was really
strong armed into taking a plea deal for some very weird,
trumped up charge, like she had been in bed at
home seven months pregnant when her husband was at a
party where someone was murdered, and she ended up having
(18:55):
to take a plea deal for like impeding prosecution in
the second degree or something thing. Any anecdotes about plea
deals that you can share with us.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Oh my gosh, so many the plea situation like this
course of plea bargaining that exists is so devastating because
it really deprives people of their constitutional rights to challenge
the search, the seizure, to challenge the evidence against them.
And people see the depiction of the criminal legal system
(19:26):
on television in movies and they think everything is a trial.
But the reality is nine percent of misdemeanors in like
ninety four percent of polonies or something like that result
in please. And I have told clients to take please,
who were probably innocent of the charges. Saying that out
loud like sounds so it sounds so terrible. But you
(19:48):
can tell a client, can I can lay out the
evidence and say, this is what's going to happen. This
is what is going to be said at trial. This
is what they're going to say, even if they're not
telling the truth. This is what the jury the judge
is going to see, and especially if it's a police
officer testifying. And yes, the rhetoric is changing and people
are understanding more now something that I've known my whole career,
(20:11):
which is that test a lying is a real thing
that police are happy to get on the stands where
to tell the truth, the whole truth, is nothing but
the truth, say I do, and then lie under oath.
It's been a very difficult road to try to convince
people that a police officer who comes in in uniform,
who's like, I'm here to protect them, sir, is lying
under oath. And so when I say a police officer's
(20:32):
going to come in and say X, Y and Z,
and people are going to believe them. But that's not true.
And I'm like, I know, but you're facing decades in
prison and right now they're offering you probation, and I
think you should take it. It's heart wrenching, but it's the
reality of the system that exists. Listen, these are all
things that I want to change as district attorneys. Are
things that the DA has the ability to change. You know,
(20:52):
this trial tax, this hearing tax. Gosh, I'm trying to
think of a case. So I had a client again,
Like these are such like run of mail cases. We
called them abso drug sales like an observation drug sale.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Like a cop observing a drug sale.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Okay, it's not like a what we call a buy
and bust where someone is selling to an undercover police officer.
But it's like an observation drug sale, and the police
officer testified or the allegations were rather that my client
was sitting in a suva like a hire up vehicle,
(21:28):
and that someone got in his car, that they saw
him hand drugs to the person, and then they pulled
him out of the vehicle, searched him and found nineteen
vagues of crack cocaine.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Or something like that.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
We knew that this search was unconstitutional. One I knew
that this was a black man who happened to be
sitting in a car and was illegally searched by the police.
He was facing a minimum of I think that it
was two and a half years in state prison for this,
but the DA was offering probation before the hearing, and
(22:03):
I said to him, you know, listen, even though you
and I both know that challenging this is extremely difficult,
but that what they did was unjust and a violation
of your Fourth Amendment rights, I still think you should
probably take the probation. And he's like, I didn't sell it,
and sell like, I don't know, I'm not I want
to go forward. And he was out of jail at
the time, and I was like, they're going to put
(22:24):
you in jail. You're going to go to prison, like
if we lose, and he's like, I don't care, I
want to do this. We do this hearing, and the
police officer the way in which they would have to
show that he saw this search is what he says
is someone gets in the car, they leave the door
slightly open so that overhead lights are on in the car,
and then you know, the dashboard comes up to basically
(22:45):
chest levels so that my client lifts his hand up
above his head to hand drugs over to the person
who got in his vehicle. I mean, it is patently absurd.
It's clearly testimony that is tailored to nullify constitutional objection.
And I had a investigator get that type of car
take photographs because the cop said he was standing on
(23:06):
the street you can basically see neck up so he
would literally had to reach his hand up to hand
these drugs over. And really truly believed that the judge
was going to suppress because it just was so outrageous
that it was truly outrageous testimony that was incredible. It
was not credible testimony.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Right, literally incredible. It's like an snl skit of like
a really dopey drug dealer who wants to get caught
or something like that, kind of lifting your hand really
high to make sure everyone can see the bag and.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Even the door open to the lights in the car.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, yes, I mean it's it's slapstick.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
It slapstick. And the judge was asking a bunch of
questions and it really seemed as though he was going
to rule in our favor. Oh no, you know, he said,
I'll come back tomorrow. I'm going to like render my decision.
And he said, I'm not suppressing these drugs. I think
that the police officer testimony was credible, and we didn't
have a trial defense. We were really going for the
(24:05):
hearing here. Yeah, and the DA recommended five years after
the hearing and wanted him to waive appeal, meaning no
one would be able to review the hearing on appeal.
And thankfully the judge didn't make us wave appeal, and
my client ended up taking the minimum, which was the
two and a half, and we expedited the appeal and
(24:28):
by the way, within a matter of months, I mean,
he probably spent close to a year in jail, but
we found out that this police officer had previously perjured
himself had lied in other cases and that had not
been disclosed to us to challenge his credibility, and so
(24:49):
they ended up having to vacate the conviction. I mean,
it was this whole crazy story, and he ended up
getting I think time served rather than us retrying the
case because he'd already served year at that point. But
like it's such a small example, like he was going
to get probation beforehand, and then the do I recommend
five years because we challenge the constitutionality of this lying
(25:11):
cop violating my client's worth amendment rights.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, that's absurd, and like you said, it's also ordinary.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Right, happens every day.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Right, I'm assuming that was a pretty typical days, weeks
of work for you. Months. I don't know how long
it took, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
You know this guy I said to him, I was like,
this takes a great deal of courage to say I
want to go forward with this hearing, you know, knowing
that the chips are stacked against us always because judges
tend to side with police officers. It's very difficult to
take on these types of cases.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah. I was gonna ask if you'd come up against
corruption in the NYPD and you've already given an example.
What's your take on the NYPD as a system if
you become Manhattan DA, Like, how much authority do you
have over the NYPD and what can we do about it? Wow,
(26:24):
minor question.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Exactly, Well, so the District Attorney doesn't actually have control
of the NYPD. We don't actually have the ability to
make changes within the departments. But the police for so
long have been just operating with no consequences, just doing
whatever they want, whether it be the rutalization we see
(26:46):
of people in the street, or the perjury in the courthouse,
or the false arrests or falsifying of documents. There are
really no consequences for the NYPD, And so I really believe,
and it's true the Manhattan District Attorney's office has been
complicit in the continuing misconduct of the NYPD. There has
to be a very serious police accountability unit, and I've
(27:09):
laid out my plans to create this unit and really
hold police officers accountable for their behavior. And it would
have to be one that was independent, because the NYPD
still is like bringing you the arrests for other cases
and everything else. But it really has to hold the
police accountable for acting illegally, for addressing all of these
(27:30):
different types of police misconduct, and making sure that that
information is out there, that there's a database of police
officers who are committing misconduct and making sure that they
are accountable. To New Yorkers, there's a right to know.
Things like what happened with the case I was just
telling you about wouldn't have happened had there been a
database where I was able to look up this police
(27:51):
officer and say, oh, there has been other times when
there have been either credible misconduct allegations or someone who
has previously been found to have perjured themselves. This wrongdoing
is something that has to be brought to light.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, it's crazy to me that you weren't able to
access that information. I mean, that's so relevant. As a
public defender, do you just have to sort of hope
that someone will bring the information to you, like that
the cop has previously perjured himself. What tools do you
have there?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Yeah, we have to hope. You have to hope that
the Manhattan Die's Office tells us that they let us
know that it is actually going on. I mean, they're
supposed to under the law, they're supposed to, but that
doesn't mean that they will.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Did you have like a come to Jesus moment where
you're like, Okay, I'm going to run for Manhattan DA
because this is such a big change for you from
your work as a public defender.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Right certainly, and it's something that I never anticipated doing.
The idea of being a prosecutor was never one that
was appealing to me. I always just wanted to be
a public defender, and I thought I would be a
public defender for life. This really came about over these
last few handful of years because our country is finally
(29:21):
coming to a reckoning with how cruel and unjust and
systemically racist our criminal legal system is the fact that
it's not keeping us safe, that massive incarceration has never
provided the public safety that people want, nor will it ever.
It's wasting tax payer money, it's over prosecuting the level
offenses and not holding people accountable for serious crimes. And
(29:42):
that we can do better, and that people are realizing
that and they're ready for it, and we're having these
national conversations about criminal justice reform in a way that
when I began as a public defender a dozen years ago,
I never could have imagined.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
That's good. That's hopeful, Yeah, hopeful, Yeah, yeah yeah. Did
you feel ever like you were going over to enemy lines?
Not to phrase it too extremely, Are you nervous.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Of course, because when I start thinking about what it's
going to be like to take over that office and
to actually bring these prosecutions, I mean, of course, it's
something that is challenging to think about. I mean I
was talking to a reporter recently and he's like, Eliza,
you realize you sometimes say the word prosecutor with disdain.
You know that, right, and you know what position you're
(30:50):
running for. I'm like, I do, But that's the whole
thing that I want to change what it means to
be a prosecutor. You know, I'm not running to be
like a good prosecutor. I'm running because I want to
figure out ways to systemically change the way a prosecutor's
office operates, to think about how we can limit the
reach of the prosecutor's office and not just beat a
(31:12):
progressive prosecutor who still ends up being the primary driver
of mass incarceration of people of color.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
I wanted to talk about this line from your website
that I loved. You said that as district attorney, I
will categorically decline to prosecute all violations and the vast
majority of misdemeanors. So what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
So the overwhelming majority of cases that come through are
low level offenses, you know, things like what I was
talking about, like taking up two seats on the subway,
laying down on a park bench, jumping a turnstile, minor
drug possession charges. And that constitutes probably more than seventy
five percent of the cases that come through. So when
people think about the criminal legal system, like people who
(32:08):
are getting prosecuted are committing serious crimes, it's not true.
You know, so much of what the criminal legal system
is is really just prosecuting these low level offenses, and
it's not keeping us safe. It's not addressing the root causes.
It's not addressing the issues people are facing, you know,
whether it be that their need of substance use to
sort of treatment of mental health treatment, whether they're experiencing homelessness.
(32:31):
Locking those people up is never going to solve any
of those societal problems. So what I want to do
is just shift the focus, shift the resources, make sure
we are focusing on serious crimes, and we'll be able
to do that by discontinuing the prosecution of things that
are violations, not even crimes, you know that's below a
misdemeanor and most misdemeanors, because that's just not the way
(32:53):
our criminal legal system should operate.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, So I think this is good to hear for
people who are caught up on this idea that prosecuting less,
limiting the amount of people who come in contact with
the criminal justice system is somehow letting the serial killers
go free in the streets. Right. I sense that fear
sometimes in people, and what you're saying is, like, no,
seventy five percent of cases are the guy with the
(33:17):
grocery bags on the subway, Exactly. If we do not
prosecute that guy, we're not making anyone's lives more endangered, exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
And in fact, what we're doing by prosecuting cases like
that is making people's lives more dangerous, because when someone
is locked up, when they're incarcerating, even if it's just
for a matter of a few days, we upend that
person's life.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
And I've seen that as a public defender. You know,
someone misses work for three days, they end up losing
their job, and then they can't pay their rent, they
lose their home. If they're single parents, they lose their kids,
they lose everything they've ever worked for. So of course
it makes sense that if someone gets locked up, gets prosecuted,
it is more likely that they will end up having
future contact with the criminal legal system then if we
(34:01):
didn't prosecute that person.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, it's so common sense.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
This is why we need you exactly before I let
you go, what could you use from criminal broads listeners
to help you win this race? What would be the
most helpful.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
We are running the only grassroots campaign for Manhattan DA.
You know, we have, as of the last filing, made
over seventy three hundred individual contributions. Average donation is under
one hundred dollars, and we are running against people who
are millionaires and billionaires, truly, and the max contribution per
(34:40):
individual donor, which is something I'm sure your listeners don't
know because it is absolutely wild, is thirty five thousand
dollars per person. And so there are people who are
taking millions and millions of dollars from max out donors,
from people who supported Donald Trump and Ted Cruz and
Josh Holly, and these are people who are trying to
buy this seat so that they can continue to perpetuate
(35:03):
the status quote and make sure they are not held
accountable people on Wall Street, which also happens to be
in Manhattan, by the way, So that's something that Manhattan
DA is responsible for looking into and investigating and holding
people accountable if they're committing crimes. So, you know, we
always need donations. So if people go to Eliza orlans
dot com and can contribute, even if it's five dollars
(35:24):
or twenty dollars, you know, we're so grateful. And we
also need volunteers. We have an absolute unbelievable network of volunteers.
We have this grassroots army of people. If you're in
New York, we're out doing canvassing. We are talking to
people on the street. But we have phone banks and
text banks and I have good thanks and we're doing those
on Zoom and we have volunteers from across the country
(35:45):
sign up to volunteer. We need your help to get
the message out because when people here, there's only one
public defender running, and that's what we need to make
these changes. We also desperately want to see they're so
excited to get involved and they want to support. We
just need to make sure they know I'm running.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
All right, everyone, thank you for listening. If you're as
fired up as I am, go to Eliza Orleans dot com.
That's E L I Z A O R L I
n s dot com, or you can look for the
link in my show notes and there on her website.
You can help in several ways. You can donate, of course,
you can volunteer to make phone calls or do a
(36:36):
text bank, and perhaps most effectively, you can tell your
friends who live in New York City to vote in
this race for Manhattan DA on June twenty second. Okay,
this is one of those races where it's actually really
easy to not even know it's happening. And I totally
understand if that's you, if that's your friend who lives
in New York. But that's why it can make such
(36:56):
a difference to send your friend a text just being like, hey,
this podcast listen to is yelling at me, and she
says you have to go vote. Unlike we learned a
couple episodes ago, this is a race where a couple
of thousand votes can actually make all the difference in
a world so if you text one or two friends
who live in New York, and maybe you post about
it on Instagram, you can tag Eliza on Instagram. We
(37:16):
could literally help her win, and then you know, she'll
be legally obligated to make a special criminal Broad's office
in the DA's office where we can go and look
at all the creepy old case files from the nineteen twenties,
which is all any of us really want, right Just
kidding obviously, but anyway, check it out Eliza orlans dot com. Also,
thank you to this episode's patrons for helping me out.
(37:39):
Carol P. Jasmine F. Thank you so much for your support.
And if you all would like to listen to an
episode of another podcast that's about a woman from my
book Confident Women, check out the most recent episode of
the podcast Strange Country. They talk about Bonnie Lee Bakley,
who is one of the saddest women in my most
(38:00):
recent book. Okay, let me tell you what you can
expect next episode. We're doing a bit of a shake
it up format. Okay, next episode is what I'm calling
my update episode. That might sound really boring, but it
actually is coming together way more effectively than I thought.
And I'm really excited. I went back through all the
(38:22):
women that we've talked about on this podcast to see
if there was any more news about them, you know,
anything that had changed since the episode came out, And
what do you know, There is a lot of new
news to say about some of these women, and some
of it is really really chilling. So meet me back
(38:42):
here in a week and we're going to sort of
like look at a bunch of broads at once and
come to some tragic and poignant conclusions. See you there,
same time, same place. All right, Love you guys, Thanks
for being the best listeners ever. Bye.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Maybe I'm ru and maybe I'm wrong loving you dear
like I do. If it's a crime, then I'm guilty,
guilty of loving you.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.