November 24, 2025 • 23 mins
Have you ever wondered what happens off mic in an investigative podcast? Join Payne Lindsey (Up and Vanished), Dennis Cooper (Culpable), and Kyle Tekiela (Crook County) for a candid look inside making a hit series. Hear personal reflections about honest storytelling, lifelong bonds to the cases you cover, and maintaining curiosity despite external pressures. Hear raw, insider takes on the un-aired side of podcasting. Recorded live from the Tenderfoot TV stage at CrimeCon 2025.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast or girls, Hey,
it's Payne Lindsay here. A few months ago, live from
the Tenderfoot stage at Crime Con, I got a chance
to sit down and talk to Kyle Tequila, host of.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Crook County, and Dennis Cooper, the host of Culpable.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We discussed both of their true crime podcasts, but also
dove a lot deeper into how these shows are actually made.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with these two amazing podcasters.
These guys are true crime podcasters like me. They have
their own investigations and stories that they've told. I'm huge
(00:55):
fans of theirs, and I've known that for a long time.
I think we all have kind of our own unique
experience in this space and also like a lot of similarities,
and I just kind of want to just rip it
open with I'll start with you while for those who
don't know, what is this? Just the log line of
your story, your podcast? And sure you came to us
(01:17):
years ago and I was like, Okay, holy shit, we're
making a podcast about this.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
But for those who don't know, tell them what the
premise is.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah, Kirk County is the story of my dad who
lived a secret double life as a Chicago mafia hit man,
and the whole family, including myself and my mother, didn't
know about it. He kept its secret from all of
us for thirty something years, and I found out when
I was like twenty nine. He was already married, I
was already planning on having a kid, and now I
(01:45):
have this bombshell dropped in my lap.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So what am I supposed to do with this information?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And so it took me years to kind of digest
all of that, and then I started recording just for posterity,
just for family archives. And then as time went on
and the more footage I got of him, it just
started to come together like it just needed to be
something bigger than just a family thing.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It needed to be a show.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So I've watched the Sopranos and stuff like that. I
like Good Fellas, I like mafia style movies. I don't
know what it's like for it to be your true story,
because a pardon me is like, that's badass, but that's
definitely not what you thought.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, what's weird is I still don't know what it's like, Okay,
because I grew up with like he was just a
firefighter paramedic in my eyes. Like, we had no idea,
So we lived like normal, boring suburban lives.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
It wasn't like we knew that he was this big
mafia hit man growing up and he had a reputation
around town and everyone knew we were like mafia you
know kids, Like, That's not how it was at all,
Like we just thought we were a regular, a regular family.
So it's weird knowing now that that whole part of
my life was kind of like a lie, and that
there was always danger around every corner, like if he
(02:57):
did something he fucked up, like that could have come
back on us, but we had no idea.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So that's crazy to think about. Yeah, what was your
first reaction and where have you settled?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, my first reaction was your fullest shit, like are
you insane?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Have you lost your mind? Now? Mind you?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
He was also like I put him through rehab and
I got him clean, so he was a heroin at it.
So I'm like, is this something like heroin like fever dream?
Like what are you talking?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
What happened in that rehab I put you in? Yeah? Exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, So yeah, it wasn't an aahuasca trip, was it right?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So? But but over.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Time, as he started telling me more and more of
the story, and it became this huge, like you know,
full of details and full of life, and you know,
I'm starting to verify things with people that he grew
up with and other family members who didn't know but
kind of knew that he had like a dark side,
and it all started to make sense like, oh, this
actually is real. I don't know how much is real,
(03:51):
but it's real, Like there's enough there that that's real.
So I just started diving in and doing the work
and eventually this we got Krook County out of the deal.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So to sum it up, like at this point in time,
how do you feel about it? Actually? Are you mad?
Or you you.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Know, if he wasn't such a fuck up part of
my French and it didn't like the mafia thing didn't
destroy the family, his heroin addiction destroyed the family. So
I'm pissed that he's a degenerate heroin addict and that
the dynamic of our family is.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Like gone, because is that associated with the with the
double life he was living.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, I mean he was always like I mean, he's
around narcotics and cocaine, George booze all the time, and
he's you know, it's just I can't imagine distress and guilt.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You could feel it.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Being someone who's killed people, multiple people like that had
to weigh on him and so you self medicate, right,
But it got really bad because as a firefighter, he
was in a really bad accident and then they gave
him all these painkillers to deal with the surgeries. And
that's when everything escalated as far as his addiction is concerned.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
And that's like when you first and then it just
became an absolute.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Exactly then you had to hit the streets after they
cut him off. So it's like, I'm more mad that
that happened, and it's but now it's like, I guess
I'm grateful that we didn't get the mafia blowback as
a kid, Like I'm grateful that whatever he did didn't
come back on us. So's it's a weird full of
(05:21):
very contracting you know emotions.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know, I've covered dozens of stories, but they've never
been about you know, my family, right, and so like
that's got to be a completely different beast. And so
I think that one kudos to you for for I mean,
I'm sure maybe it's even therapeutic in some weird way
to sort of like put it down.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And like, I don't know, is it a processing part
of that?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I mean, it took me years to make it for
a reason. Yeah, because I needed that time to process it.
And because the whole time I'm also investigating, I'm learning
new information, I'm getting new stories out of him, I'm
you know, interviewing people, I'm getting you know, getting more
raw emotions from people, and and so it took a
long time to you know, I'm like editing and putting
a story together and also processing things at the same time.
(06:08):
Then I take a break, and then I added a
little bit and then I process and I take a break.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, and so but.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, it's now that it's all done, it's extremely cathartic,
Like I feel like that monkeys off my back now
and it's no longer my burden like it was. Like
now it's like out into the world and now it's
like a gift, like my gift to other people to
maybe listen and maybe learn from or maybe gain some
inspiration or hope or whatever.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I hope you're enjoying this episode. Live from Crime Con.
Want to get a head start on Crime Con twenty
twenty six in Vegas right now you can save ten
percent of your tickets with our exclusive promo code. Just
head to crimecon dot com to grab your standard badge
today and use promo code Tenderfoot at checkout. Don't wait,
locking your spot now for the ultimate true crime experience,
and we'll see you in Las Vegas next May. Now
(07:07):
back to the show.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Let's start with Just Culporable Season one. Like you getting
into true crime podcasting, just that journey.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, so not a personal story so much, you know,
working with strangers on the contrary, but as you know,
I mean, you were a big inspiration for me. I
just pretty much heard what you did and thought I
could probably steal that formula.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Oh yeah, that guy, I could do better than that guy.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Yeah, you know, so I've been That's what I've been saying,
trying to tell you guys.
Speaker 6 (07:48):
But yeah, no, I I just funny enough. I never
intended on doing this.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
It was just something that you know, I thought was
really cool, and I was inspired what you did and
thought maybe I could and you know, to shorten a
long story, I learned about Christian Andracio's case at crime
kind of all places, which is why I always love
coming to this. I always love seeing so many people
out here and seeing these people, you know, pass out
their loved ones flyers, just trying to get attention on
(08:14):
it because you know, ultimate the end of the day, you
want to solve these cases that you follow, but a
big part of it too is just getting them the
attention that they need and deserve.
Speaker 6 (08:22):
And so it was.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Twenty eighteen crime con Nashville and got a flyer from
one of his family members about his case and contacted
Ray Andreachio and the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
From them telling the story of an unsolved case. And
you're basically trying to pick up where investigators left off
and move the needle. Tell me from your perspective what
that's actually like.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
Well, it's tough.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
I mean, there's so many layers to it, you know,
just to go back to the starting question about picking
up the pieces where they've been left off. You know,
oftentimes that's the problem with these cases, that's why they
remain unsolved, is because that attention dies off, the police
department or sheriff's office moves on to new case. And
(09:09):
this one is just getting colder and colder by the day.
Speaker 6 (09:12):
And so.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
You know, also, these are more often than not open cases,
So it's not something that you can just walk in
there and see the whole book on it and all
the investigative work that went into it. You're really like
you alluded to more than anything starting from scratch. Now, fortunately,
in season one of Culpable, Christian's mother Ray was just
(09:38):
a warrior, a bulldog of sorts, is like I referred
to her, and she, you know, for years was like,
I'm not going to give up on this.
Speaker 6 (09:47):
I'm gonna get to the bottom of this.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
And so you know, I had a leg up in
a sense of that I knew some information going into it,
but for different reasons, the authorities there did not have
any interest opening up the doors anymore on that or
working with us in any capacity. And that's still something
I think all of us struggle with to this day.
(10:09):
I know you just had some of that in your
most recent season. It's just I think a lot of
them are still warming up to the idea of people
like us like coming in and trying to help them
essentially at the end of the day. But then on
the on the personal side, it's it's a different kind
of struggle because I do want to have a personal connection.
I do want to connect with the family and meet
(10:31):
them on an emotional level. I've always been a natural,
you know, just empathizer, and so I have no problem
making those connections. Where I struggle is, you know, it's
sensitive material and they can't write these stories. These are
our stories about about their loved one, and so that
(10:53):
balance is.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Always a struggle.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
It's always a struggle of knowing what to say and
how to best say it in a way that's you know,
caring and concerning of of their emotions, but also getting
the truth out there.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
What's actually the hardest part about it genuinely or maybe
even not even when you're doing it, but like afterwards
and sort of like you know, I was told by
Mark Smirling, who did The Jaints six seven years ago,
and at the time that I didn't even fully get
what he meant. He said, these stories never leave you,
and I was like, right, and I was like, what
(11:32):
do you mean.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
He's like, they never leave you.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
He starts talking about cases he did twenty five years ago.
I was like, I still talk to these people and
I'm like, you're right, and like I'd only been eight
months into investigating tarre grin Say's disappearance, and I was like,
I guess it's gonna be like part of my life forever.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
What does it even mean? Right? But it's true.
Speaker 6 (11:53):
Yeah, it's very true. I can't really put it a
better way than you just did. I mean, I think,
and well.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Well you should.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
I'm gonna do my bath.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Yeah, I mean it's like, yeah, I didn't know this
going into it either. When when I decided to do
season one of Culpable, I just thought it was like
talk to who needs to be talked to figure out
what you can figure out, write a story record it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Fortunately, like that guy didn't do I could do that ship.
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Yeah, I underestimated it.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Found out I fucked around and found out, Yeah, you're
damn And then I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
Like it is a.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Long journey, an emotional journey. I mean, I'm pretty sure
I've shaved years off my own life. But again, it's
not a pity party. I'm fortunate to be able to
do this and I love doing this, but man, it's
a lot.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
And you and I didn't realize when.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I signed a contract to do that show that in
a way I was signing a contract with the family
of like we're in this together forever, essentially, and that's
that's really what it was. I mean, I just I
just I just contacted Ray Andreacchio just about a month
or so ago, and and we kind of did follow
(13:08):
up and put an episode out about it, and we're
talking like what's new, and you know, do we need
to do some other follow up and this and that,
and it's just you know, and we're talking about our
families and stuff. It's not just about the victim. I mean,
we're meeting on a more personal level.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
You look around and see other true crime podcasts and
they're mostly not about their own personal story about their
dad being looking some double life. So what was your
approach in the closeness that you had with that and
how you delicately I mean, because there's a level of
vulnerability there I can only imagine was kind of just
weird and like maybe uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
One hundred percent. You know, like at first, it's a
story about my dad. And then as I'm recording and
I'm asking myself questions and I'm contemplating and I'm mulling
all this stuff over, I'm going well, no, it's much
more in that it's a story about like what happened
to my mom too, and that's also a story about
what happened to my brother, which means it's a story
about what happened to me. So it's like I'm like
going through all these mental exercises and trying to figure
(14:08):
this out, and at a certain point, I said, I
have to put myself into this story. You kind of
just have to be completely shameless and like get rid
of the ego and like if you if like you know,
there are times when I felt like I was really
weak and I made weak decisions because I was young
and immature. You know, you almost have to like take
a step back and like I become a character in
(14:30):
my own story. But I'm not that character. I am
that character, but I have to treat it like you'm.
Speaker 6 (14:36):
Got here.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So it's a it's a weird exercise, but like and
it was hard at first or awkward at first, but
over time it becomes second nature and and then by
the end of it, it's just like I don't care
at all, Like I completely wear my heart of my sleep,
like I will say exactly what I'm thinking. I don't
care if you don't like me, But like you know,
in contrast to what you guys do, it's not I'm
(14:58):
not treating it like a procedural crime like that I
have to solve.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I'm treating it like I am.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Telling a very deep, intense story with a million different layers,
and I have to do it, and I have to
do it authentically, and I have to do it in
a way that is going to make the family proud.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
That family just happens to be my family. The human
curiosity is at the core like a relatable.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Thing, oh for sure, and absolutely that manifested different ways.
So for you, Jnis, like how do you creatively keep
going when it already is a lot of pressure from
a cold case standpoint, and there's people saying you suck,
you got it wrong, and the family is like I
don't know if you're right, and the wall enforce is like,
(15:56):
don't come over here.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
Yeah right, Well, I think ultimately it's just enjoying what
you do and being passionate about it. I mean, like
you said, none of us really have the qualifications you
get to be in here.
Speaker 6 (16:08):
Whatever those qualifications you know, I.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Don't, Kyle, I definitely don't for sure if hair were
to be a qualification.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You do Oh yeah, yeah, I have. I have a PhD.
You do that. It looks so real. It's a great rug.
It looks it's a great rug. I got a great
rug guy.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
But yeah, just you know, being being passionate about it.
That's why I love making connections with families. Is I
think that kind of helps keep you going, Making a
making a very deep connection with with the victim and
knowing like, I'm in this for the long haul, no
matter how hard it gets. But you know, I'm kind
of like I think, if you peeled back all of
our layers, I'm sure there's something there that points to
(16:48):
why we're here.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
I mean, as a college drop out, I probably shouldn't
be here.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
But at the same time, like I was as a kid,
I I did watch Survivor.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
I was not filming anybody.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
But I did like to write short stories for fun,
you know, And so I always had kind of a
creative witch.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I guess you could say, as a writer.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Uh, for whatever reason, I did not pursue that as
a career in any sort of way, and you know,
but it worked out nonetheless, I guess you could say.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
So.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
Yeah, but I think ultimately it's like you said, making
something that you would want to listen to because, as
you know, having made it yourself, and I listened to
it as a fan what's seven years ago or whatever.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
It was like you clearly didn't sound like you knew
what the hell you were doing.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
You know, clearly, clearly, clearly, clearly.
Speaker 6 (17:37):
It sounded like you were walking around with.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
A zoom like I'm going to like do exactly what
that guy did it.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
It sounded like you were walking around with a zoom recorder,
walking up to people saying, hey, do you know anything
about this? That was like this, but at the same
time it made it seem attainable and also made it
made me realize like, damn you can. You can convey
a lot, and you can tell a really compelling story
by just having your heart in it and uh and
(18:05):
through audio only.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
And that amazed me.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Somebody who was always fascinated with watching true crime and
growing up watching shows like Dateline twenty twenty and watching
every documentary that was out there, to learn that there
was this medium where it had no visual representation but
yet you could feel like you were in a movie
was like, well, damn, I want to do that.
Speaker 6 (18:24):
That sounds really cool and easier.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Honestly, Like I don't know how to work a camera,
that'd be a whole other thing.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
To try to learn.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
So yeah, so you know, I just try to master
that and you know, keep my heart in it and
until the end with the stories I tell.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
In the future, going forward, in any other project you do,
how are you approaching it differently or what have you
learned and what do you want to bring forward for
your own for your own work in this space.
Speaker 5 (18:50):
Doing different seasons of culpablel means you know, you can
pick a different case each time, and with that opens
the door to all different possibilities. You know, This newest
season of Culpable is very different in that right when
I started to produce it, some some events happened and
I obtained like the case filed of this case and
on beyond that, there was like all these different recordings
(19:12):
and stuff from way back in nineteen ninety eight, which
has been really cool to utilize and work with and
with something very different than.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
I did in past seasons.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
So I mean, I think in some ways, like each
story just being different, each victim being different, each family
being different, each expert you talk to me like it
opens possibilities, like different creative avenues, because I'm like you
as a creative, like you definitely don't everyone to get
stuck in a lane or keep feeling like you're just
doing the same thing over and over and over.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
It drives me nuts.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
It look like you're doing your best film, right.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
Yeah, like you like, yeah, just coming up with it
getting lazy, Yeah, like you could place it with like yeah,
sure that's not what this is, right, yeah, And that's
why also deep down, I mean I also would like
to break out at some point and try something different.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
You know, I messaged you when High Strains came out.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And I was like, man, like take me on a
UFO ride please, Like all right, didn't.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
It didn't sound it didn't sound quite as emotionally exhausted,
you know what I mean. Like it's just like that
is very true and it just just you know, so
I think at some point too, I'd like to try
to branch out and do some some different types of projects.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Like that you should at that's that like your story telling,
like skill set is could leave in so many different lanes,
and I think that's what it takes. When I was
to even like get this sort of energy back where
like I've gone through like whoa man, I have to
like heal after a like being in the trenches with something.
Speaker 6 (20:38):
You have to like take a vacation after you finish this.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
It's not it's like it kind of just builds up
where like I I don't even realize it's gotten so bad.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
Who am I?
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Under the eyes is always the dead giveaway when you
start seeing those when you look in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
You're like, but I did sleep? Yeah, yeah, uh, it's
a it's a. It's just a you learn that through time.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And you got to like take care of yourself to
be able to do something, especially about anyone else.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
And yeah, yeah, keeping that one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You gotta be on your game otherwise you're gonna do
a disservice to whatever the story.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Is, right, or you should be a pressure there. Yeah
for sure. I mean that's another thing too.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
But like some of the stuff that I don't know
if you've done this in yours, but like you were
doing stuff that was like live, like you were editing
and then like the next episode like it's releasing next week,
Like that's got.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
To be insane.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
It's important to sort of like check yourself, balance yourself
to make sure you're you're doing it the right way,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, I mean there's always a rule I learned in
Hollywood a long time ago is nobody knows what they're doing,
and nobody knows what they're talking about, no.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Matter how successful.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And I think to some degree that's extremely true, right,
you know, And so you just you can't beat yourself
up if you're trying to do your own thing. You
just gotta go and do it and believe in yourself
and just persistence is key, and just keep cranking away
and like it'll just start to make sense and it
will just start to get good. If it's not good yet,
it will if you just keep working at it. And
I think that's what makes us a little crazy. You
(22:09):
kind of have to be a little crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
To do it, yeah, a little bit, because like, not
everyone's gonna be like yes, correct, right, Like there's a
period of time whereone was.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like I don't I don't really get what he's doing,
to be honest, and you're like you got to push
through that part and you're like, damn, maybe they're right.
I shouldn't be doing any of this ship. Yeah right,
and that but like that and that applies with anything.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But also but no, fuck those people because you believe
in yourself. So just do what you want to do.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's true. So don't be like, Wow, this guy just
doesn't care about anybody. Just fuck fuck us.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah really, so, I just realized I'm just wearing a
lot in this pan.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I apologize. It's fucking fine. Sorry, I'm from chicag I
don't worry about it, but this is fucking grime guy.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Dude, Thank you guys for sitting here and listening.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
To us talk talk shit for a little while. This
has been really enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Hopefully you guys were at least mildly entertained or you
learn something, or at least you're like, Okay, I'm never
fucking with those guys again, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
This conversation was live from Crime Con with Kyle Tequila
and Dennis Cooper.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
If you haven't already, be sure to check out Cook
Speaker 1 (23:21):
County in the new season of Culpable, and stay tuned
for some exciting new shows coming very soon from Tenderfoot
You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast or girls, Hey,
it's Payne Lindsay here. A few months ago, live from
the Tenderfoot stage at Crime Con, I got a chance
to sit down and talk to Kyle Tequila, host of.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Crook County, and Dennis Cooper, the host of Culpable.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We discussed both of their true crime podcasts, but also
dove a lot deeper into how these shows are actually made.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with these two amazing podcasters.
These guys are true crime podcasters like me. They have
their own investigations and stories that they've told. I'm huge
(00:55):
fans of theirs, and I've known that for a long time.
I think we all have kind of our own unique
experience in this space and also like a lot of similarities,
and I just kind of want to just rip it
open with I'll start with you while for those who
don't know, what is this? Just the log line of
your story, your podcast? And sure you came to us
(01:17):
years ago and I was like, Okay, holy shit, we're
making a podcast about this.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
But for those who don't know, tell them what the
premise is.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah, Kirk County is the story of my dad who
lived a secret double life as a Chicago mafia hit man,
and the whole family, including myself and my mother, didn't
know about it. He kept its secret from all of
us for thirty something years, and I found out when
I was like twenty nine. He was already married, I
was already planning on having a kid, and now I
(01:45):
have this bombshell dropped in my lap.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So what am I supposed to do with this information?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And so it took me years to kind of digest
all of that, and then I started recording just for posterity,
just for family archives. And then as time went on
and the more footage I got of him, it just
started to come together like it just needed to be
something bigger than just a family thing.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It needed to be a show.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So I've watched the Sopranos and stuff like that. I
like Good Fellas, I like mafia style movies. I don't
know what it's like for it to be your true story,
because a pardon me is like, that's badass, but that's
definitely not what you thought.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, what's weird is I still don't know what it's like, Okay,
because I grew up with like he was just a
firefighter paramedic in my eyes. Like, we had no idea,
So we lived like normal, boring suburban lives.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
It wasn't like we knew that he was this big
mafia hit man growing up and he had a reputation
around town and everyone knew we were like mafia you
know kids, Like, That's not how it was at all,
Like we just thought we were a regular, a regular family.
So it's weird knowing now that that whole part of
my life was kind of like a lie, and that
there was always danger around every corner, like if he
(02:57):
did something he fucked up, like that could have come
back on us, but we had no idea.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So that's crazy to think about. Yeah, what was your
first reaction and where have you settled?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, my first reaction was your fullest shit, like are
you insane?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Have you lost your mind? Now? Mind you?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
He was also like I put him through rehab and
I got him clean, so he was a heroin at it.
So I'm like, is this something like heroin like fever dream?
Like what are you talking?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
What happened in that rehab I put you in? Yeah? Exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, So yeah, it wasn't an aahuasca trip, was it right?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So? But but over.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Time, as he started telling me more and more of
the story, and it became this huge, like you know,
full of details and full of life, and you know,
I'm starting to verify things with people that he grew
up with and other family members who didn't know but
kind of knew that he had like a dark side,
and it all started to make sense like, oh, this
actually is real. I don't know how much is real,
(03:51):
but it's real, Like there's enough there that that's real.
So I just started diving in and doing the work
and eventually this we got Krook County out of the deal.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So to sum it up, like at this point in time,
how do you feel about it? Actually? Are you mad?
Or you you.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Know, if he wasn't such a fuck up part of
my French and it didn't like the mafia thing didn't
destroy the family, his heroin addiction destroyed the family. So
I'm pissed that he's a degenerate heroin addict and that
the dynamic of our family is.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Like gone, because is that associated with the with the
double life he was living.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, I mean he was always like I mean, he's
around narcotics and cocaine, George booze all the time, and
he's you know, it's just I can't imagine distress and guilt.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You could feel it.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Being someone who's killed people, multiple people like that had
to weigh on him and so you self medicate, right,
But it got really bad because as a firefighter, he
was in a really bad accident and then they gave
him all these painkillers to deal with the surgeries. And
that's when everything escalated as far as his addiction is concerned.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
And that's like when you first and then it just
became an absolute.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Exactly then you had to hit the streets after they
cut him off. So it's like, I'm more mad that
that happened, and it's but now it's like, I guess
I'm grateful that we didn't get the mafia blowback as
a kid, Like I'm grateful that whatever he did didn't
come back on us. So's it's a weird full of
(05:21):
very contracting you know emotions.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know, I've covered dozens of stories, but they've never
been about you know, my family, right, and so like
that's got to be a completely different beast. And so
I think that one kudos to you for for I mean,
I'm sure maybe it's even therapeutic in some weird way
to sort of like put it down.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And like, I don't know, is it a processing part
of that?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I mean, it took me years to make it for
a reason. Yeah, because I needed that time to process it.
And because the whole time I'm also investigating, I'm learning
new information, I'm getting new stories out of him, I'm
you know, interviewing people, I'm getting you know, getting more
raw emotions from people, and and so it took a
long time to you know, I'm like editing and putting
a story together and also processing things at the same time.
(06:08):
Then I take a break, and then I added a
little bit and then I process and I take a break.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, and so but.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, it's now that it's all done, it's extremely cathartic,
Like I feel like that monkeys off my back now
and it's no longer my burden like it was. Like
now it's like out into the world and now it's
like a gift, like my gift to other people to
maybe listen and maybe learn from or maybe gain some
inspiration or hope or whatever.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I hope you're enjoying this episode. Live from Crime Con.
Want to get a head start on Crime Con twenty
twenty six in Vegas right now you can save ten
percent of your tickets with our exclusive promo code. Just
head to crimecon dot com to grab your standard badge
today and use promo code Tenderfoot at checkout. Don't wait,
locking your spot now for the ultimate true crime experience,
and we'll see you in Las Vegas next May. Now
(07:07):
back to the show.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Let's start with Just Culporable Season one. Like you getting
into true crime podcasting, just that journey.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, so not a personal story so much, you know,
working with strangers on the contrary, but as you know,
I mean, you were a big inspiration for me. I
just pretty much heard what you did and thought I
could probably steal that formula.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Oh yeah, that guy, I could do better than that guy.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Yeah, you know, so I've been That's what I've been saying,
trying to tell you guys.
Speaker 6 (07:48):
But yeah, no, I I just funny enough. I never
intended on doing this.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
It was just something that you know, I thought was
really cool, and I was inspired what you did and
thought maybe I could and you know, to shorten a
long story, I learned about Christian Andracio's case at crime
kind of all places, which is why I always love
coming to this. I always love seeing so many people
out here and seeing these people, you know, pass out
their loved ones flyers, just trying to get attention on
(08:14):
it because you know, ultimate the end of the day, you
want to solve these cases that you follow, but a
big part of it too is just getting them the
attention that they need and deserve.
Speaker 6 (08:22):
And so it was.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Twenty eighteen crime con Nashville and got a flyer from
one of his family members about his case and contacted
Ray Andreachio and the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
From them telling the story of an unsolved case. And
you're basically trying to pick up where investigators left off
and move the needle. Tell me from your perspective what
that's actually like.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
Well, it's tough.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
I mean, there's so many layers to it, you know,
just to go back to the starting question about picking
up the pieces where they've been left off. You know,
oftentimes that's the problem with these cases, that's why they
remain unsolved, is because that attention dies off, the police
department or sheriff's office moves on to new case. And
(09:09):
this one is just getting colder and colder by the day.
Speaker 6 (09:12):
And so.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
You know, also, these are more often than not open cases,
So it's not something that you can just walk in
there and see the whole book on it and all
the investigative work that went into it. You're really like
you alluded to more than anything starting from scratch. Now, fortunately,
in season one of Culpable, Christian's mother Ray was just
(09:38):
a warrior, a bulldog of sorts, is like I referred
to her, and she, you know, for years was like,
I'm not going to give up on this.
Speaker 6 (09:47):
I'm gonna get to the bottom of this.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
And so you know, I had a leg up in
a sense of that I knew some information going into it,
but for different reasons, the authorities there did not have
any interest opening up the doors anymore on that or
working with us in any capacity. And that's still something
I think all of us struggle with to this day.
(10:09):
I know you just had some of that in your
most recent season. It's just I think a lot of
them are still warming up to the idea of people
like us like coming in and trying to help them
essentially at the end of the day. But then on
the on the personal side, it's it's a different kind
of struggle because I do want to have a personal connection.
I do want to connect with the family and meet
(10:31):
them on an emotional level. I've always been a natural,
you know, just empathizer, and so I have no problem
making those connections. Where I struggle is, you know, it's
sensitive material and they can't write these stories. These are
our stories about about their loved one, and so that
(10:53):
balance is.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
Always a struggle.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
It's always a struggle of knowing what to say and
how to best say it in a way that's you know,
caring and concerning of of their emotions, but also getting
the truth out there.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
What's actually the hardest part about it genuinely or maybe
even not even when you're doing it, but like afterwards
and sort of like you know, I was told by
Mark Smirling, who did The Jaints six seven years ago,
and at the time that I didn't even fully get
what he meant. He said, these stories never leave you,
and I was like, right, and I was like, what
(11:32):
do you mean.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
He's like, they never leave you.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
He starts talking about cases he did twenty five years ago.
I was like, I still talk to these people and
I'm like, you're right, and like I'd only been eight
months into investigating tarre grin Say's disappearance, and I was like,
I guess it's gonna be like part of my life forever.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
What does it even mean? Right? But it's true.
Speaker 6 (11:53):
Yeah, it's very true. I can't really put it a
better way than you just did. I mean, I think,
and well.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Well you should.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
I'm gonna do my bath.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Yeah, I mean it's like, yeah, I didn't know this
going into it either. When when I decided to do
season one of Culpable, I just thought it was like
talk to who needs to be talked to figure out
what you can figure out, write a story record it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Fortunately, like that guy didn't do I could do that ship.
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Yeah, I underestimated it.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Found out I fucked around and found out, Yeah, you're
damn And then I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
Like it is a.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Long journey, an emotional journey. I mean, I'm pretty sure
I've shaved years off my own life. But again, it's
not a pity party. I'm fortunate to be able to
do this and I love doing this, but man, it's
a lot.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
And you and I didn't realize when.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I signed a contract to do that show that in
a way I was signing a contract with the family
of like we're in this together forever, essentially, and that's
that's really what it was. I mean, I just I
just I just contacted Ray Andreacchio just about a month
or so ago, and and we kind of did follow
(13:08):
up and put an episode out about it, and we're
talking like what's new, and you know, do we need
to do some other follow up and this and that,
and it's just you know, and we're talking about our
families and stuff. It's not just about the victim. I mean,
we're meeting on a more personal level.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
You look around and see other true crime podcasts and
they're mostly not about their own personal story about their
dad being looking some double life. So what was your
approach in the closeness that you had with that and
how you delicately I mean, because there's a level of
vulnerability there I can only imagine was kind of just
weird and like maybe uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
One hundred percent. You know, like at first, it's a
story about my dad. And then as I'm recording and
I'm asking myself questions and I'm contemplating and I'm mulling
all this stuff over, I'm going well, no, it's much
more in that it's a story about like what happened
to my mom too, and that's also a story about
what happened to my brother, which means it's a story
about what happened to me. So it's like I'm like
going through all these mental exercises and trying to figure
(14:08):
this out, and at a certain point, I said, I
have to put myself into this story. You kind of
just have to be completely shameless and like get rid
of the ego and like if you if like you know,
there are times when I felt like I was really
weak and I made weak decisions because I was young
and immature. You know, you almost have to like take
a step back and like I become a character in
(14:30):
my own story. But I'm not that character. I am
that character, but I have to treat it like you'm.
Speaker 6 (14:36):
Got here.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So it's a it's a weird exercise, but like and
it was hard at first or awkward at first, but
over time it becomes second nature and and then by
the end of it, it's just like I don't care
at all, Like I completely wear my heart of my sleep,
like I will say exactly what I'm thinking. I don't
care if you don't like me, But like you know,
in contrast to what you guys do, it's not I'm
(14:58):
not treating it like a procedural crime like that I
have to solve.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I'm treating it like I am.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Telling a very deep, intense story with a million different layers,
and I have to do it, and I have to
do it authentically, and I have to do it in
a way that is going to make the family proud.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
That family just happens to be my family. The human
curiosity is at the core like a relatable.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Thing, oh for sure, and absolutely that manifested different ways.
So for you, Jnis, like how do you creatively keep
going when it already is a lot of pressure from
a cold case standpoint, and there's people saying you suck,
you got it wrong, and the family is like I
don't know if you're right, and the wall enforce is like,
(15:56):
don't come over here.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
Yeah right, Well, I think ultimately it's just enjoying what
you do and being passionate about it. I mean, like
you said, none of us really have the qualifications you
get to be in here.
Speaker 6 (16:08):
Whatever those qualifications you know, I.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Don't, Kyle, I definitely don't for sure if hair were
to be a qualification.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You do Oh yeah, yeah, I have. I have a PhD.
You do that. It looks so real. It's a great rug.
It looks it's a great rug. I got a great
rug guy.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
But yeah, just you know, being being passionate about it.
That's why I love making connections with families. Is I
think that kind of helps keep you going, Making a
making a very deep connection with with the victim and
knowing like, I'm in this for the long haul, no
matter how hard it gets. But you know, I'm kind
of like I think, if you peeled back all of
our layers, I'm sure there's something there that points to
(16:48):
why we're here.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
I mean, as a college drop out, I probably shouldn't
be here.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
But at the same time, like I was as a kid,
I I did watch Survivor.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
I was not filming anybody.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
But I did like to write short stories for fun,
you know, And so I always had kind of a
creative witch.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I guess you could say, as a writer.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Uh, for whatever reason, I did not pursue that as
a career in any sort of way, and you know,
but it worked out nonetheless, I guess you could say.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
So.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
Yeah, but I think ultimately it's like you said, making
something that you would want to listen to because, as
you know, having made it yourself, and I listened to
it as a fan what's seven years ago or whatever.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
It was like you clearly didn't sound like you knew
what the hell you were doing.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
You know, clearly, clearly, clearly, clearly.
Speaker 6 (17:37):
It sounded like you were walking around with.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
A zoom like I'm going to like do exactly what
that guy did it.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
It sounded like you were walking around with a zoom recorder,
walking up to people saying, hey, do you know anything
about this? That was like this, but at the same
time it made it seem attainable and also made it
made me realize like, damn you can. You can convey
a lot, and you can tell a really compelling story
by just having your heart in it and uh and
(18:05):
through audio only.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
And that amazed me.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Somebody who was always fascinated with watching true crime and
growing up watching shows like Dateline twenty twenty and watching
every documentary that was out there, to learn that there
was this medium where it had no visual representation but
yet you could feel like you were in a movie
was like, well, damn, I want to do that.
Speaker 6 (18:24):
That sounds really cool and easier.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
Honestly, Like I don't know how to work a camera,
that'd be a whole other thing.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
To try to learn.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
So yeah, so you know, I just try to master
that and you know, keep my heart in it and
until the end with the stories I tell.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
In the future, going forward, in any other project you do,
how are you approaching it differently or what have you
learned and what do you want to bring forward for
your own for your own work in this space.
Speaker 5 (18:50):
Doing different seasons of culpablel means you know, you can
pick a different case each time, and with that opens
the door to all different possibilities. You know, This newest
season of Culpable is very different in that right when
I started to produce it, some some events happened and
I obtained like the case filed of this case and
on beyond that, there was like all these different recordings
(19:12):
and stuff from way back in nineteen ninety eight, which
has been really cool to utilize and work with and
with something very different than.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
I did in past seasons.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
So I mean, I think in some ways, like each
story just being different, each victim being different, each family
being different, each expert you talk to me like it
opens possibilities, like different creative avenues, because I'm like you
as a creative, like you definitely don't everyone to get
stuck in a lane or keep feeling like you're just
doing the same thing over and over and over.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
It drives me nuts.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
It look like you're doing your best film, right.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
Yeah, like you like, yeah, just coming up with it
getting lazy, Yeah, like you could place it with like yeah,
sure that's not what this is, right, yeah, And that's
why also deep down, I mean I also would like
to break out at some point and try something different.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
You know, I messaged you when High Strains came out.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And I was like, man, like take me on a
UFO ride please, Like all right, didn't.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
It didn't sound it didn't sound quite as emotionally exhausted,
you know what I mean. Like it's just like that
is very true and it just just you know, so
I think at some point too, I'd like to try
to branch out and do some some different types of projects.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Like that you should at that's that like your story telling,
like skill set is could leave in so many different lanes,
and I think that's what it takes. When I was
to even like get this sort of energy back where
like I've gone through like whoa man, I have to
like heal after a like being in the trenches with something.
Speaker 6 (20:38):
You have to like take a vacation after you finish this.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
It's not it's like it kind of just builds up
where like I I don't even realize it's gotten so bad.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
Who am I?
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Under the eyes is always the dead giveaway when you
start seeing those when you look in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
You're like, but I did sleep? Yeah, yeah, uh, it's
a it's a. It's just a you learn that through time.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And you got to like take care of yourself to
be able to do something, especially about anyone else.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
And yeah, yeah, keeping that one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You gotta be on your game otherwise you're gonna do
a disservice to whatever the story.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Is, right, or you should be a pressure there. Yeah
for sure. I mean that's another thing too.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
But like some of the stuff that I don't know
if you've done this in yours, but like you were
doing stuff that was like live, like you were editing
and then like the next episode like it's releasing next week,
Like that's got.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
To be insane.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
It's important to sort of like check yourself, balance yourself
to make sure you're you're doing it the right way,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, I mean there's always a rule I learned in
Hollywood a long time ago is nobody knows what they're doing,
and nobody knows what they're talking about, no.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Matter how successful.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And I think to some degree that's extremely true, right,
you know, And so you just you can't beat yourself
up if you're trying to do your own thing. You
just gotta go and do it and believe in yourself
and just persistence is key, and just keep cranking away
and like it'll just start to make sense and it
will just start to get good. If it's not good yet,
it will if you just keep working at it. And
I think that's what makes us a little crazy. You
(22:09):
kind of have to be a little crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
To do it, yeah, a little bit, because like, not
everyone's gonna be like yes, correct, right, Like there's a
period of time whereone was.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like I don't I don't really get what he's doing,
to be honest, and you're like you got to push
through that part and you're like, damn, maybe they're right.
I shouldn't be doing any of this ship. Yeah right,
and that but like that and that applies with anything.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But also but no, fuck those people because you believe
in yourself. So just do what you want to do.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's true. So don't be like, Wow, this guy just
doesn't care about anybody. Just fuck fuck us.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah really, so, I just realized I'm just wearing a
lot in this pan.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I apologize. It's fucking fine. Sorry, I'm from chicag I
don't worry about it, but this is fucking grime guy.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Dude, Thank you guys for sitting here and listening.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
To us talk talk shit for a little while. This
has been really enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Hopefully you guys were at least mildly entertained or you
learn something, or at least you're like, Okay, I'm never
fucking with those guys again, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
This conversation was live from Crime Con with Kyle Tequila
and Dennis Cooper.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
If you haven't already, be sure to check out Cook
Speaker 1 (23:21):
County in the new season of Culpable, and stay tuned
for some exciting new shows coming very soon from Tenderfoot
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.