November 20, 2024 • 34 mins
At the request of Yorgen Fenech, a Maltese judge implements a gag order which prohibits Manuel Delia from participating in this final episode. In his absence, John is joined by accomplished investigative journalists Carlo Bonini from Italy, and Ellen Trapp from Germany. Together they discuss the latest developments in the fight to get justice for Daphne and the state of journalism worldwide.
Crooks Everywhere is a production of iHeartPodcasts, Topic Studios and Vespucci.
The voice of Daphne Caruana Galizia is played by Sienna Miller.
The senior producer is Leo Hornak. The producer is Maddie Hickish.
The executive producers are: Christy Gressman for Topic Studios; Katrina Norvell and Nikki Ettore for iHeart Podcasts; Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turcan for Vespucci; and Sienna Miller.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
There are crooks everywhere you look. Now the situation is desperate.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
In the last episode of Crooks Everywhere, you heard how
alleged mastermind Jorgen Fennick was arrested off the coast of
Malta as he attempted to flee the country on his
private yacht. He was later taken to cord In prison
and detained under preventative custody. For some reason, the authorities
(00:35):
saw him as a flight risk. Fenek was charged with
complicity to murder and criminal association, and he denies these charges.
At the time of recording, it has been nearly five
years since Feneck was arrested, and yet no date for
the trial has been seted. Jorgen Fenek is, of course
(00:59):
presumed innocent unto proven guilty, and he has the right
to a fair trial. But in the meantime we must
continue to interrogate what's going on in Malta. We are,
after all, investigating the murder of a colleague, yes, but
we're also telling the story of a country under siege
from corruption. All this and much more, including the criminal
(01:24):
charges against Joseph Muscat. In this final episode from My
Heart podcast, topic Studios and Vespucci. This is Crooks Everywhere,
Episode ten, The Big Picture. Hello, I'm John Sweeney. In
(01:52):
this our final episode of Crooks Everywhere. We're doing things
a bit differently around table discussion, bringing you up to
speed on the latest developments in the story of the
assassination of Daphne Carojuana Galitzia and the continuing impact of
her work and her tragic death. You will have already
noticed that there is a voice missing from this episode.
(02:15):
Manuel Delia is not able to join us for legal reasons.
I'll come to shortly, but first let me introduce you
to the two fantastic guests that are alongside me in
this absence. Firstly, Ellen Trapp, a German journalist based in Munich.
At the time of Daphne's murder, Ellen was stationed in
Rome as head of studio for ARD, Germany's national television station.
(02:39):
She was also the correspondent responsible for ARD's coverage of
Malta and flew straight into the country hours after Daphne's
assassination to cover the story. Eleanor is now head of
the Culture department at Ard. Hello, Ellen, Hi, And also
we have Carlo Benini, Deputy editor in chief of the
Italian national paper Republica, an expert on the intersection of
(03:03):
organized crime and politics, an author of several books, including
Murder on the Matter Express, which he co authored with
me and Manuel Hi Carlo.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'm Efrem.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
We all three of something in common when Daphne was murdered.
We were all compelled to travel to Malta to be there,
to interrogate what had happened, and to tell Daphne's story
back in our home countries. So I'd like to start
first with your personal relationship to this story, Allen. Can
you tell me why this story is so important to you.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I remember John and I heard it in the podcast
in another episode that you entered the BBC office and
there was just like silence when the breaking news came up.
And meanwhile I'm talking, I'm just getting really emotional because
I remember my situation in the same moment I entered.
I was editing another story in Rome and a colleague
(03:58):
entered the edit room and he's said, you know what
happened Dafne Carojuana Calthia's dad, And I said, and my
first idea was she was sick. So I just checked
my phone, I checked the news and I thought no,
she wasn't sick. So we were discussing extremely fast how
(04:22):
to react and what we can do, and I remember
we booked the flight and I said, I'm going to
Malta immediately to cover the story because it just hit
me deep in my heart as a European citizen, as
a woman, and as a journalist. So it was for
(04:44):
me a very, very shocking moment, and I felt so
responsible to tell this story.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Carlo, tell me where were you when you heard the
news and what was your instant reaction.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Well, John, I was in my newsroom, and the news
was really like a shot, a shot in my newsroom
because Daphne had been working for a long time on
Panama papers and my newspaper was involved in the consorts
room which work on it, so Daphne was well known.
(05:21):
The result was that the very next day we were
on a flight to Balita, and I remember also that
we decided that we were going to cover the story
of Daphne, the death of Daphne, the murder of Daphne
as a domestic story, with the same pressure to follow
(05:45):
the story and to get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
For my point, I can remember vividly the atmosphere in
the newsroom. But there was a sense of shot. I remember,
a sense of dread and a sense of cute. She
was We're gonna try and find out what happened here
because this is one of us is being killed, and
also a sense of determination as well. Ellenncarla, did you
(06:11):
feel that too, that this is one of us?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Absolutely, of course, because she's one of us.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
She was one of us, even if I didn't meet her,
which I feel really sad about today.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Still today she had in Germany.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
You say, she has the nose to get the good stories,
you know, and she's like a good researcher, and she
was like a fantastic journalist. So that's the reason why
I felt so shocked, because yes, she was one of us.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Goll It, definitely she was, and I remember that. My
thought was, they cannot think that the story will die
with her. I mean, you can kill one journalist, you
can kill two journalists, you can kill those of journalist
so that he cannot kill journalism, and that I think
(07:04):
that was the best way to honor the life, the memory,
the passion of such a resilent woman.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Carlo. I want to buy you a drink, but it's
twelve thirty and you're in another country. So let's move
on to the first big important development and the reason
I'm without my co pilot Manuel today. On the nineteenth
of September twenty twenty four, a decree was fixed through
the door of the Course of Justice. In the letter,
(07:37):
it set out a ban on any writings, declarations, or
any public discussion on broadcast media or social media that
mentions the trial of Organ Fennik for the murder of
Daphne Carouana Glitzia. It seems that this ban also extends
to any discussion of Daphne's murder whatsoever, whether or not
Jurgen Fennick is referenced. The only exception is a reporting
(08:00):
of what happens in open court where journalists are allowed
to be present. A band like this is allowed under
an old Victorian Maltese law, but is very rarely used.
Daphne herself spoke out against this law, referencing another case.
She said, all the ban has done is to protect
(08:20):
the interests of the alleged aggressors. It also cheats the
public because of its need to see justice being done. Indeed,
the public in this situation doesn't even know whether justice
is being done. Manuel is challenging this ban on a
constitutional basis, but in the meantime we're respecting the judge's decision.
(08:41):
The first nine episodes of this series were recorded well
before the court degree, but as this episode has been
recorded after, Manuel is not participating. However, we understand that
those of us outside the Maltese jurisdiction are able to
continue to talk about this subject. So Ellen in Germany,
(09:03):
Carlo in Italy, and Me in Britain, respectively, will do
just that now. Jorgan Fennick denies the charges related to
Daphne's murder and is of course presumed innocent until proven guilty.
The express purpose of this ban is to protect Organ
Phenix's right to a fair trial. The issue I see
(09:24):
here is that whoever it was responsible for Daphne's murder
is responsible for the silencing of a journalist, and now
this decree seeks to silence all journalists on the subject
of Daphne's murder itself until his longer waited trial. We'll
talk about the delay, but what I want to talk
(09:47):
to you about first is this question of fairness. Carlo,
is it common for a European country to declare a
ban like this.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I can speak my country and there is no chance
that you can issue a better like this. We have
a constitutional right. And I think that you said the
right word before you said an ancient Victorian law. In
(10:19):
a Victorian age, you can think that a ban on
local papers could ensure sort of blanket effect. In twoenty
twenty four, in the digital age, choosing to apply a
(10:40):
Victorian law is nonsense and gives you the idea that
the let's say, the institutions in Malta are still afraid
of the truth. I think there is something desperate in
this man. That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Allen, can I bring you in here? How do we
strite the balance between reporting what is in the public
interest and avoiding trial by media? What's reasonable? What's fair?
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I think yes, it had there has to be and
I guess we all agree in that there has to
be a fair trial for everyone, and that's even a
European value. There is a public interest and that what
happened to Manuel, and that what happened in Malta over years. Yes,
(11:35):
I agree to what Carlos said. They are still afraid.
What's coming next? What's the end of the story and
I think over years they thought the power means you
are rich and you have the money. But this is
not the real power. The power we have is actually
the freedom of speech. We have the journalists, we have
(11:57):
a network, and the.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Jews has to come up at one point.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
And so I think a fair trial, yes, but that
what happened in Malta is really.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I don't even find words for that.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
May just add one thing. I am I am keen
on fair trial, but I think that a fair trial
relies for the strict application of the ruler law. A
fair trial has nothing to do with journalism or public debate.
(12:37):
A fair trial relies on the cautionists and the proficiency
of a professional judge.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
There's a specific thing. At the moment, there is still
no date for the trial. The organ Fundic was arrested
in November twenty nineteen and then died of the murder
in August twenty twenty one. At the time of recording,
he's been held on remand almost five years now. It's
important to say that this is not unusual for Malta.
There are thirty three pending cases that have been waiting
(13:07):
even longer than this one, and the backlog won't be
cleared until twenty thirty seven, but the organ Fene's legal
team have also delayed things further with various appeals and complaints.
In fact, when Phene requested to have Madame just as
that Weena Greema removed from the case, he was denied
this until that this was solely the untem attempt to
(13:28):
uselessly prolong proceedings. So Carlo, tell me, do you think
this is a multi specific issue. Would we see delays
like this elsewhere with such a high profile case?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Well as you as you know, Italy is not at
the at the top of the for the top countries.
For you know, spitness of trials for five years? Five
years is long tin als. Sorry, I'm nothing too, I
(14:00):
don't know, Yeah, I mean, you're right, five years is
really a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Even even for an Italian, even.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
For the Italian standards.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
It wouldn't happen in Britain for a trial of this
importance and this magnitude. The idea that you'd be waiting
five years, I can't see that happening here. What about
would it happen in German?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Allen, No, it wouldn't happen in German, even like these
high profile cases like NSU or wire cat this went
away faster.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yes, No.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Implicit an affair trial is that it should happen in
a timely fashion, and that's not happening here. By the way,
I should point out that this sort of delay is
not only unfair for the victims of a crime, but
also for those accused of that crime. Organzanek has experienced
five years of prison conditions when he is still presumed innocent.
(14:54):
By the way, that's not uncommon in Malta. But Carlo,
do you think this speaks to a dis functional justice system?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
No?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think it speaks to political oriented justice. I think
that justice in Multa.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I mean's a crooked one.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, well, you know, I think it justice Si Malta
can work smoothly and quickly. Remember when dafinitely died investigators
investigators from USA were sent on the scene, the FBI
Italian investigators gave even important boosts, so uh they where
(15:41):
every There was everything at the time to lead a
fair investigation that could lead to a fair trial and
at a quick and fair trial.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Ellen, what are the consequences of waiting so long for
the trial in terms of witness memory, in terms of
how evidence may may start to Deuteria. One of the
consequences of waiting so long for Astrang.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Yeah, there's once the witnesses themselves who cannot even remember
what happened. Second, like the Maltese people who are not
any more interested in the case Stephan Carowana Galita because
it's years ago. It might be their purpose that they
want the Maltese people who are fighting for the truth
(16:33):
at some point just to tire it. So I'm really
afraid that this is their purpose, just to play and
wait so that.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
One day nobody's asking anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
But I'm still optimistic that this will not happen.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Well, it's always good to be optimistic. But reporting on
this story, I think you could be forgiven for thinking
that things just as bad and most today as they
were seven years ago when Daphne was killed, that the
corruption and criminality that she warned us about continues to flourish. Ellen,
I'm interested in your time as a foreign journalist covering
multi stories. Can you paint us a picture of the
(17:14):
levels of corruption you found.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
That I was wondering if I ever did a nice
story about Malta in all these years I stayed in
Rome and covering Malta. It was always about selling passports,
like the hospital deal, it.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Was about gambling.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
And then the assassination of Dafne Cajuerana Galicia. I felt
the level of corruption in Malta was really, really high,
and I stayed in Italy, and I mean Caldo knows
that more than I do. I was, you know, I
was used to some corruption in another country, but and
I didn't expect that or Malta. They build it up
(17:58):
and whole economy in a sort of illegal way to
get the people rich. The people means not like the
normal people on the street we meet. The people means,
of course, the political class that had an interest in
(18:19):
becoming richer, doing deals, and that's what I saw over years.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
There is the possibility that some things might be changing
in Malta. In May twenty twenty four, ex Prime Minister
Joseph Muscat with charged with accepting bribes, corruption and public
office and money laundering, amongst other things. All these charges
relate to a deal made to privatize free public hospitals
in Malta and also implicate Muscat's former chief of staff
(18:55):
Keith Scambrie and former cabinet minister Conrad Mitzi. You heard
about the hospital or briefly in episode seven. It's a
story that Daphne broke back in twenty fifteen. The actualization
is that multi public funds that were intended for hospital
upkeep and repair were instead funneled to private beneficiaries, including Muscat,
(19:17):
Skembury and Mitzi. All three men deny wrongdoing. This is
a complicated case and it will take time to resolve,
but it is still hugely significant that the former prime
minister has been taken to court on these charges. Carlo,
how can we measure whether corruption is at last being
properly addressed?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I think the lesson, the ultimate lesson from Daphne Smarther
is is that what's going on in Malta, what's going
on in many countries that are experiencing a deep, a
(19:59):
u huge crisis of democracy, is that when in a
country democracy turns into a what we call the mokretura,
something between a regime with the resemblance of democracy, that's
(20:20):
the place where corruptions is a bound.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Three.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
You John experienced a long time in Ukraine on the
East Front. We know what's going on in Russia. I
think that when we speak about corruption, we are talking
about the crisis of democracies as we used to know them.
(20:49):
We are all more or less sons of the twentieth
century when democracies were conquered with the sacrifice of our
fathers or grandfathers. If we want to battle against corruption,
(21:09):
we have to fight to keep up with democracy in shape,
which means transparency, which means rule of law, which means
responsibility of each of us, beginning from the one who
(21:30):
does this beautiful job, which is journalism.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Beautifully put Karlo, one thing does more to have anti
mafia legislation, not I mean, as far as I know,
it doesn't correct answer. Surely that means it's going to
be difficult for the country to stand up for corruption
and the influence of organized crime.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Let's try to say that there is an organized crime
families in Moldo Islands and try to do that. It
seems to me sadly that Malta has many many roads
to go to face the reality and to face the truth.
(22:15):
Remember John, when they decided to clean up the main
road in Valleta from candles and flowers, remembering and honoring
Dahny because that flowers in that candles put a shade
on the image of the island. There's the same stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yes, So this is what Colin's referring to folks is
every night her supporters were put up a little shrine.
They'll put up photographs and be flowers and reefs, and
every night, day after day after day, the bin men
would come and take it down and listen. Part of
this conversation we're having here and this whole series is
(22:56):
about remembering Daphne Caronic let say herself, and what she
stood for. She thought so fiercely against corruption, as we've
discussed already, and of course for freedom of speech and
the importance of journalism. When I think about Daphne and
what she took on in defense of journalism, and when
I look around me today in twenty four I worry
(23:17):
about the state and the independence of journalism around the world.
Or am I being a bit of a cynic Ellen?
Speaker 4 (23:25):
I would love to be optimistic, but right now I'm
not really because even I mean, populism fights journalism, and
we see it in the US and we see it.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
In several countries.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
So it's so hard to get to the people with
real news. And I realized in Germany that the interest
in some TikTok reels and insta stories from right wing
parties are so much more popular than a high quality
(24:06):
journalism story about corruption or organized crime or the war
in the Ukraine or whatever happens in Israel and Gaza,
and so I think, of course, the journalism is in
danger and makes our work, our work so much harder
(24:28):
and so much more complicated, as the people interested in
easy answers in a really complicated, crazy world. Right now,
the people are ignoring or think they think we are
just like the left wing fake news idiots. And to
(24:50):
fight against this is really, really hard. And I never
had a situation in my journalistic life that I felt
so pessimistic that I'm right now. I remember the first
day I stayed in Valletta after the assassination, and I
(25:10):
did like a box pop in the streets of Valletta,
and I asked the people what what about Dafne And
some said she's like which I'm happy she's dead now,
And it was like, there's a woman fearless in Malta,
a journalist.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
She's doing a great work.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And sometimes maybe one of your the blog stories you
didn't like, Okay, that's fair enough, but searching for the
truth might be a value we just should fight for.
And I think this is a really hard work we
(25:49):
have to do right now.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I mean proud my career. There's always been very powerful
media barons, for example the Murder family who control big
newspapers in Britain, but also Fox News and all of that.
But now there's something new, twister X whatever they call
it these days, controlled by Elon Musk. So, Carlo, do
(26:12):
you worry that the power of a very small number
of individuals have it in shaping our global conversations is
a threat to democracy and independent journalism?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Definitely? It is. Oh, I agree with you. Democracies are
at risk, are in danger, are sieged a populism as
Ellen was saying that, As you know, I am an
optimistic Italian. So I think that we have a chance
(26:52):
and we work it out. There where other times when
everything seemed lost, when journalism seem to have no space
to go, and sometimes when I see my younger mates
here in the news group, sometimes in good days, I
(27:13):
think we'll work it out. They were as in Athlete,
there were there.
Speaker 5 (27:18):
Were new generation of young journalists, independent journalists, bloggers whoever
as this wonderful energy to fight for democracy and to
keep the to keep.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
The light on. And also if you love to tell
of yourself that you are an old cynical Brits, my
dear John, what you did in the last couple of
years in Ukraine, it's the proof that we will work
(27:59):
it out, the journalists will survive.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I've been put in my place by an optimistic Italian.
I do believe that storytelling will out, the truth will out,
and the best stories that are told are the stories
that power and money don't want to be told. I'd
like to draw things to a close here by remembering
(28:24):
that Daphney continues to be a beacon for fearless independent
journalism long after she's gone. And it's extraordinary to me
that she died seven years ago and yet the repercussions
of her story she broke continue to be felt to
this day. But of course we can't forget that the
things she thought so fearlessly against corruption and the silent
(28:46):
saying a free speech that continues to be a violatle
struggle in Malta and across the whole world today. So
I'd like to ask you both about Daphne's legacy. What
do you think are the enduring lessons we can take
from the life and work of Daphne Carona Galicia Alan.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
First, Wow, that's a big question.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Jews must be told, be fearless, work in a network
values fairness, transparency, justice. There's such a lot I have
in my backpack after the murder, after the assassination of Dafne,
and I hope a lot of us will carry that on,
(29:34):
even a Malta. And let me say this, even I
wish for that Karwana Galicia family that wants there will
be that day when all the when the big picture
Jews comes up and they just can close the darkest
(29:55):
chapter of their life.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So much Carlo, I guess you have a bit to tell.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Well, I I think there is one lesson more than
any other that Daphne's life as a journalist and Daughne's
mother tell us. And the major lesson to me is
(30:23):
don't be afraid to be alone. Don't be afraid to
be alone in uh in the saying in writing what
do you think is the truth? Don't think that being
alone is at the evidence of a mistake. Loneliness sometimes,
(30:46):
many times, especially in our job in journalism, is the
main road to uncover what the other don't want to
don't want to hear, don't want to see, or try
(31:07):
not to be discovered. So Batane was alone, was alone
among her friends, was alonge among her people, was along
in her homeland, that at the end she found out
that she was not at all alone.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Beautifully poor, my own two pennyies on this. Her life
and her work spoke to a simple truth. But all
the power and money and all the corruption in the
world will never ever silence, and that is this The
(31:49):
truth will apt. So I need to thank my two
fantastic guests, Allen Trapp and Carlo Benini. Thank you very much,
both of you. We reached out to representatives for Organthhanic
(32:10):
to request their comments on some of the questions raised
in our reporting. While the case is still awaiting trial,
representatives for Organthhonic declined to comment on the ongoing court
cases or this story in general. Organthhanic denies all the
charges relating to the murder of Daphne Carolina Galitzia and
has stated that he is focused and confident on proving
(32:30):
his innocence in a court of law. Former Prime Minister
Joseph Muscats representative declined our request for an interview. He
is pleaded not guilty to all charges relating to the privatization.
Conrad Mitzi did not respond to our requests for an interview.
Keif sch Genbrie declined our request for an interview. Crooks
(33:10):
Everywhere is a production of iHeart Podcasts, Topic Studios and Vespucci.
This episode was hosted by me John Sweeney. The producer
is Maddie Hikesh. The managing producers are Thomas Curry and
Rachel Byrne. The voice of Daphne Carojana Glitzia is played
by Sienna Miller, acting direction by Christopher Houten. The executive
(33:33):
producers are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkin Vespucci, Gritty Gressman
at Topic Studios, Katrina Novelle and Nikki Etoor at iHeart
Podcasts and Sienna Miller. Marketing lead is David Wasserman. Audio
mix and sound design by Joel Cox.
There are crooks everywhere you look. Now the situation is desperate.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
In the last episode of Crooks Everywhere, you heard how
alleged mastermind Jorgen Fennick was arrested off the coast of
Malta as he attempted to flee the country on his
private yacht. He was later taken to cord In prison
and detained under preventative custody. For some reason, the authorities
(00:35):
saw him as a flight risk. Fenek was charged with
complicity to murder and criminal association, and he denies these charges.
At the time of recording, it has been nearly five
years since Feneck was arrested, and yet no date for
the trial has been seted. Jorgen Fenek is, of course
(00:59):
presumed innocent unto proven guilty, and he has the right
to a fair trial. But in the meantime we must
continue to interrogate what's going on in Malta. We are,
after all, investigating the murder of a colleague, yes, but
we're also telling the story of a country under siege
from corruption. All this and much more, including the criminal
(01:24):
charges against Joseph Muscat. In this final episode from My
Heart podcast, topic Studios and Vespucci. This is Crooks Everywhere,
Episode ten, The Big Picture. Hello, I'm John Sweeney. In
(01:52):
this our final episode of Crooks Everywhere. We're doing things
a bit differently around table discussion, bringing you up to
speed on the latest developments in the story of the
assassination of Daphne Carojuana Galitzia and the continuing impact of
her work and her tragic death. You will have already
noticed that there is a voice missing from this episode.
(02:15):
Manuel Delia is not able to join us for legal reasons.
I'll come to shortly, but first let me introduce you
to the two fantastic guests that are alongside me in
this absence. Firstly, Ellen Trapp, a German journalist based in Munich.
At the time of Daphne's murder, Ellen was stationed in
Rome as head of studio for ARD, Germany's national television station.
(02:39):
She was also the correspondent responsible for ARD's coverage of
Malta and flew straight into the country hours after Daphne's
assassination to cover the story. Eleanor is now head of
the Culture department at Ard. Hello, Ellen, Hi, And also
we have Carlo Benini, Deputy editor in chief of the
Italian national paper Republica, an expert on the intersection of
(03:03):
organized crime and politics, an author of several books, including
Murder on the Matter Express, which he co authored with
me and Manuel Hi Carlo.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'm Efrem.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
We all three of something in common when Daphne was murdered.
We were all compelled to travel to Malta to be there,
to interrogate what had happened, and to tell Daphne's story
back in our home countries. So I'd like to start
first with your personal relationship to this story, Allen. Can
you tell me why this story is so important to you.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I remember John and I heard it in the podcast
in another episode that you entered the BBC office and
there was just like silence when the breaking news came up.
And meanwhile I'm talking, I'm just getting really emotional because
I remember my situation in the same moment I entered.
I was editing another story in Rome and a colleague
(03:58):
entered the edit room and he's said, you know what
happened Dafne Carojuana Calthia's dad, And I said, and my
first idea was she was sick. So I just checked
my phone, I checked the news and I thought no,
she wasn't sick. So we were discussing extremely fast how
(04:22):
to react and what we can do, and I remember
we booked the flight and I said, I'm going to
Malta immediately to cover the story because it just hit
me deep in my heart as a European citizen, as
a woman, and as a journalist. So it was for
(04:44):
me a very, very shocking moment, and I felt so
responsible to tell this story.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Carlo, tell me where were you when you heard the
news and what was your instant reaction.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Well, John, I was in my newsroom, and the news
was really like a shot, a shot in my newsroom
because Daphne had been working for a long time on
Panama papers and my newspaper was involved in the consorts
room which work on it, so Daphne was well known.
(05:21):
The result was that the very next day we were
on a flight to Balita, and I remember also that
we decided that we were going to cover the story
of Daphne, the death of Daphne, the murder of Daphne
as a domestic story, with the same pressure to follow
(05:45):
the story and to get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
For my point, I can remember vividly the atmosphere in
the newsroom. But there was a sense of shot. I remember,
a sense of dread and a sense of cute. She
was We're gonna try and find out what happened here
because this is one of us is being killed, and
also a sense of determination as well. Ellenncarla, did you
(06:11):
feel that too, that this is one of us?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Absolutely, of course, because she's one of us.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
She was one of us, even if I didn't meet her,
which I feel really sad about today.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Still today she had in Germany.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
You say, she has the nose to get the good stories,
you know, and she's like a good researcher, and she
was like a fantastic journalist. So that's the reason why
I felt so shocked, because yes, she was one of us.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Goll It, definitely she was, and I remember that. My
thought was, they cannot think that the story will die
with her. I mean, you can kill one journalist, you
can kill two journalists, you can kill those of journalist
so that he cannot kill journalism, and that I think
(07:04):
that was the best way to honor the life, the memory,
the passion of such a resilent woman.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Carlo. I want to buy you a drink, but it's
twelve thirty and you're in another country. So let's move
on to the first big important development and the reason
I'm without my co pilot Manuel today. On the nineteenth
of September twenty twenty four, a decree was fixed through
the door of the Course of Justice. In the letter,
(07:37):
it set out a ban on any writings, declarations, or
any public discussion on broadcast media or social media that
mentions the trial of Organ Fennik for the murder of
Daphne Carouana Glitzia. It seems that this ban also extends
to any discussion of Daphne's murder whatsoever, whether or not
Jurgen Fennick is referenced. The only exception is a reporting
(08:00):
of what happens in open court where journalists are allowed
to be present. A band like this is allowed under
an old Victorian Maltese law, but is very rarely used.
Daphne herself spoke out against this law, referencing another case.
She said, all the ban has done is to protect
(08:20):
the interests of the alleged aggressors. It also cheats the
public because of its need to see justice being done. Indeed,
the public in this situation doesn't even know whether justice
is being done. Manuel is challenging this ban on a
constitutional basis, but in the meantime we're respecting the judge's decision.
(08:41):
The first nine episodes of this series were recorded well
before the court degree, but as this episode has been
recorded after, Manuel is not participating. However, we understand that
those of us outside the Maltese jurisdiction are able to
continue to talk about this subject. So Ellen in Germany,
(09:03):
Carlo in Italy, and Me in Britain, respectively, will do
just that now. Jorgan Fennick denies the charges related to
Daphne's murder and is of course presumed innocent until proven guilty.
The express purpose of this ban is to protect Organ
Phenix's right to a fair trial. The issue I see
(09:24):
here is that whoever it was responsible for Daphne's murder
is responsible for the silencing of a journalist, and now
this decree seeks to silence all journalists on the subject
of Daphne's murder itself until his longer waited trial. We'll
talk about the delay, but what I want to talk
(09:47):
to you about first is this question of fairness. Carlo,
is it common for a European country to declare a
ban like this.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I can speak my country and there is no chance
that you can issue a better like this. We have
a constitutional right. And I think that you said the
right word before you said an ancient Victorian law. In
(10:19):
a Victorian age, you can think that a ban on
local papers could ensure sort of blanket effect. In twoenty
twenty four, in the digital age, choosing to apply a
(10:40):
Victorian law is nonsense and gives you the idea that
the let's say, the institutions in Malta are still afraid
of the truth. I think there is something desperate in
this man. That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Allen, can I bring you in here? How do we
strite the balance between reporting what is in the public
interest and avoiding trial by media? What's reasonable? What's fair?
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I think yes, it had there has to be and
I guess we all agree in that there has to
be a fair trial for everyone, and that's even a
European value. There is a public interest and that what
happened to Manuel, and that what happened in Malta over years. Yes,
(11:35):
I agree to what Carlos said. They are still afraid.
What's coming next? What's the end of the story and
I think over years they thought the power means you
are rich and you have the money. But this is
not the real power. The power we have is actually
the freedom of speech. We have the journalists, we have
(11:57):
a network, and the.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Jews has to come up at one point.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
And so I think a fair trial, yes, but that
what happened in Malta is really.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I don't even find words for that.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
May just add one thing. I am I am keen
on fair trial, but I think that a fair trial
relies for the strict application of the ruler law. A
fair trial has nothing to do with journalism or public debate.
(12:37):
A fair trial relies on the cautionists and the proficiency
of a professional judge.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
There's a specific thing. At the moment, there is still
no date for the trial. The organ Fundic was arrested
in November twenty nineteen and then died of the murder
in August twenty twenty one. At the time of recording,
he's been held on remand almost five years now. It's
important to say that this is not unusual for Malta.
There are thirty three pending cases that have been waiting
(13:07):
even longer than this one, and the backlog won't be
cleared until twenty thirty seven, but the organ Fene's legal
team have also delayed things further with various appeals and complaints.
In fact, when Phene requested to have Madame just as
that Weena Greema removed from the case, he was denied
this until that this was solely the untem attempt to
(13:28):
uselessly prolong proceedings. So Carlo, tell me, do you think
this is a multi specific issue. Would we see delays
like this elsewhere with such a high profile case?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Well as you as you know, Italy is not at
the at the top of the for the top countries.
For you know, spitness of trials for five years? Five
years is long tin als. Sorry, I'm nothing too, I
(14:00):
don't know, Yeah, I mean, you're right, five years is
really a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Even even for an Italian, even.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
For the Italian standards.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
It wouldn't happen in Britain for a trial of this
importance and this magnitude. The idea that you'd be waiting
five years, I can't see that happening here. What about
would it happen in German?
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Allen, No, it wouldn't happen in German, even like these
high profile cases like NSU or wire cat this went
away faster.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yes, No.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Implicit an affair trial is that it should happen in
a timely fashion, and that's not happening here. By the way,
I should point out that this sort of delay is
not only unfair for the victims of a crime, but
also for those accused of that crime. Organzanek has experienced
five years of prison conditions when he is still presumed innocent.
(14:54):
By the way, that's not uncommon in Malta. But Carlo,
do you think this speaks to a dis functional justice system?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
No?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think it speaks to political oriented justice. I think
that justice in Multa.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I mean's a crooked one.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, well, you know, I think it justice Si Malta
can work smoothly and quickly. Remember when dafinitely died investigators
investigators from USA were sent on the scene, the FBI
Italian investigators gave even important boosts, so uh they where
(15:41):
every There was everything at the time to lead a
fair investigation that could lead to a fair trial and
at a quick and fair trial.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Ellen, what are the consequences of waiting so long for
the trial in terms of witness memory, in terms of
how evidence may may start to Deuteria. One of the
consequences of waiting so long for Astrang.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Yeah, there's once the witnesses themselves who cannot even remember
what happened. Second, like the Maltese people who are not
any more interested in the case Stephan Carowana Galita because
it's years ago. It might be their purpose that they
want the Maltese people who are fighting for the truth
(16:33):
at some point just to tire it. So I'm really
afraid that this is their purpose, just to play and
wait so that.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
One day nobody's asking anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
But I'm still optimistic that this will not happen.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Well, it's always good to be optimistic. But reporting on
this story, I think you could be forgiven for thinking
that things just as bad and most today as they
were seven years ago when Daphne was killed, that the
corruption and criminality that she warned us about continues to flourish. Ellen,
I'm interested in your time as a foreign journalist covering
multi stories. Can you paint us a picture of the
(17:14):
levels of corruption you found.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
That I was wondering if I ever did a nice
story about Malta in all these years I stayed in
Rome and covering Malta. It was always about selling passports,
like the hospital deal, it.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Was about gambling.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
And then the assassination of Dafne Cajuerana Galicia. I felt
the level of corruption in Malta was really, really high,
and I stayed in Italy, and I mean Caldo knows
that more than I do. I was, you know, I
was used to some corruption in another country, but and
I didn't expect that or Malta. They build it up
(17:58):
and whole economy in a sort of illegal way to
get the people rich. The people means not like the
normal people on the street we meet. The people means,
of course, the political class that had an interest in
(18:19):
becoming richer, doing deals, and that's what I saw over years.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
There is the possibility that some things might be changing
in Malta. In May twenty twenty four, ex Prime Minister
Joseph Muscat with charged with accepting bribes, corruption and public
office and money laundering, amongst other things. All these charges
relate to a deal made to privatize free public hospitals
in Malta and also implicate Muscat's former chief of staff
(18:55):
Keith Scambrie and former cabinet minister Conrad Mitzi. You heard
about the hospital or briefly in episode seven. It's a
story that Daphne broke back in twenty fifteen. The actualization
is that multi public funds that were intended for hospital
upkeep and repair were instead funneled to private beneficiaries, including Muscat,
(19:17):
Skembury and Mitzi. All three men deny wrongdoing. This is
a complicated case and it will take time to resolve,
but it is still hugely significant that the former prime
minister has been taken to court on these charges. Carlo,
how can we measure whether corruption is at last being
properly addressed?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I think the lesson, the ultimate lesson from Daphne Smarther
is is that what's going on in Malta, what's going
on in many countries that are experiencing a deep, a
(19:59):
u huge crisis of democracy, is that when in a
country democracy turns into a what we call the mokretura,
something between a regime with the resemblance of democracy, that's
(20:20):
the place where corruptions is a bound.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Three.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
You John experienced a long time in Ukraine on the
East Front. We know what's going on in Russia. I
think that when we speak about corruption, we are talking
about the crisis of democracies as we used to know them.
(20:49):
We are all more or less sons of the twentieth
century when democracies were conquered with the sacrifice of our
fathers or grandfathers. If we want to battle against corruption,
(21:09):
we have to fight to keep up with democracy in shape,
which means transparency, which means rule of law, which means
responsibility of each of us, beginning from the one who
(21:30):
does this beautiful job, which is journalism.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Beautifully put Karlo, one thing does more to have anti
mafia legislation, not I mean, as far as I know,
it doesn't correct answer. Surely that means it's going to
be difficult for the country to stand up for corruption
and the influence of organized crime.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Let's try to say that there is an organized crime
families in Moldo Islands and try to do that. It
seems to me sadly that Malta has many many roads
to go to face the reality and to face the truth.
(22:15):
Remember John, when they decided to clean up the main
road in Valleta from candles and flowers, remembering and honoring
Dahny because that flowers in that candles put a shade
on the image of the island. There's the same stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yes, So this is what Colin's referring to folks is
every night her supporters were put up a little shrine.
They'll put up photographs and be flowers and reefs, and
every night, day after day after day, the bin men
would come and take it down and listen. Part of
this conversation we're having here and this whole series is
(22:56):
about remembering Daphne Caronic let say herself, and what she
stood for. She thought so fiercely against corruption, as we've
discussed already, and of course for freedom of speech and
the importance of journalism. When I think about Daphne and
what she took on in defense of journalism, and when
I look around me today in twenty four I worry
(23:17):
about the state and the independence of journalism around the world.
Or am I being a bit of a cynic Ellen?
Speaker 4 (23:25):
I would love to be optimistic, but right now I'm
not really because even I mean, populism fights journalism, and
we see it in the US and we see it.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
In several countries.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
So it's so hard to get to the people with
real news. And I realized in Germany that the interest
in some TikTok reels and insta stories from right wing
parties are so much more popular than a high quality
(24:06):
journalism story about corruption or organized crime or the war
in the Ukraine or whatever happens in Israel and Gaza,
and so I think, of course, the journalism is in
danger and makes our work, our work so much harder
(24:28):
and so much more complicated, as the people interested in
easy answers in a really complicated, crazy world. Right now,
the people are ignoring or think they think we are
just like the left wing fake news idiots. And to
(24:50):
fight against this is really, really hard. And I never
had a situation in my journalistic life that I felt
so pessimistic that I'm right now. I remember the first
day I stayed in Valletta after the assassination, and I
(25:10):
did like a box pop in the streets of Valletta,
and I asked the people what what about Dafne And
some said she's like which I'm happy she's dead now,
And it was like, there's a woman fearless in Malta,
a journalist.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
She's doing a great work.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And sometimes maybe one of your the blog stories you
didn't like, Okay, that's fair enough, but searching for the
truth might be a value we just should fight for.
And I think this is a really hard work we
(25:49):
have to do right now.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I mean proud my career. There's always been very powerful
media barons, for example the Murder family who control big
newspapers in Britain, but also Fox News and all of that.
But now there's something new, twister X whatever they call
it these days, controlled by Elon Musk. So, Carlo, do
(26:12):
you worry that the power of a very small number
of individuals have it in shaping our global conversations is
a threat to democracy and independent journalism?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Definitely? It is. Oh, I agree with you. Democracies are
at risk, are in danger, are sieged a populism as
Ellen was saying that, As you know, I am an
optimistic Italian. So I think that we have a chance
(26:52):
and we work it out. There where other times when
everything seemed lost, when journalism seem to have no space
to go, and sometimes when I see my younger mates
here in the news group, sometimes in good days, I
(27:13):
think we'll work it out. They were as in Athlete,
there were there.
Speaker 5 (27:18):
Were new generation of young journalists, independent journalists, bloggers whoever
as this wonderful energy to fight for democracy and to
keep the to keep.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
The light on. And also if you love to tell
of yourself that you are an old cynical Brits, my
dear John, what you did in the last couple of
years in Ukraine, it's the proof that we will work
(27:59):
it out, the journalists will survive.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I've been put in my place by an optimistic Italian.
I do believe that storytelling will out, the truth will out,
and the best stories that are told are the stories
that power and money don't want to be told. I'd
like to draw things to a close here by remembering
(28:24):
that Daphney continues to be a beacon for fearless independent
journalism long after she's gone. And it's extraordinary to me
that she died seven years ago and yet the repercussions
of her story she broke continue to be felt to
this day. But of course we can't forget that the
things she thought so fearlessly against corruption and the silent
(28:46):
saying a free speech that continues to be a violatle
struggle in Malta and across the whole world today. So
I'd like to ask you both about Daphne's legacy. What
do you think are the enduring lessons we can take
from the life and work of Daphne Carona Galicia Alan.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
First, Wow, that's a big question.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Jews must be told, be fearless, work in a network
values fairness, transparency, justice. There's such a lot I have
in my backpack after the murder, after the assassination of Dafne,
and I hope a lot of us will carry that on,
(29:34):
even a Malta. And let me say this, even I
wish for that Karwana Galicia family that wants there will
be that day when all the when the big picture
Jews comes up and they just can close the darkest
(29:55):
chapter of their life.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So much Carlo, I guess you have a bit to tell.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Well, I I think there is one lesson more than
any other that Daphne's life as a journalist and Daughne's
mother tell us. And the major lesson to me is
(30:23):
don't be afraid to be alone. Don't be afraid to
be alone in uh in the saying in writing what
do you think is the truth? Don't think that being
alone is at the evidence of a mistake. Loneliness sometimes,
(30:46):
many times, especially in our job in journalism, is the
main road to uncover what the other don't want to
don't want to hear, don't want to see, or try
(31:07):
not to be discovered. So Batane was alone, was alone
among her friends, was alonge among her people, was along
in her homeland, that at the end she found out
that she was not at all alone.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Beautifully poor, my own two pennyies on this. Her life
and her work spoke to a simple truth. But all
the power and money and all the corruption in the
world will never ever silence, and that is this The
(31:49):
truth will apt. So I need to thank my two
fantastic guests, Allen Trapp and Carlo Benini. Thank you very much,
both of you. We reached out to representatives for Organthhanic
(32:10):
to request their comments on some of the questions raised
in our reporting. While the case is still awaiting trial,
representatives for Organthhonic declined to comment on the ongoing court
cases or this story in general. Organthhanic denies all the
charges relating to the murder of Daphne Carolina Galitzia and
has stated that he is focused and confident on proving
(32:30):
his innocence in a court of law. Former Prime Minister
Joseph Muscats representative declined our request for an interview. He
is pleaded not guilty to all charges relating to the privatization.
Conrad Mitzi did not respond to our requests for an interview.
Keif sch Genbrie declined our request for an interview. Crooks
(33:10):
Everywhere is a production of iHeart Podcasts, Topic Studios and Vespucci.
This episode was hosted by me John Sweeney. The producer
is Maddie Hikesh. The managing producers are Thomas Curry and
Rachel Byrne. The voice of Daphne Carojana Glitzia is played
by Sienna Miller, acting direction by Christopher Houten. The executive
(33:33):
producers are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkin Vespucci, Gritty Gressman
at Topic Studios, Katrina Novelle and Nikki Etoor at iHeart
Podcasts and Sienna Miller. Marketing lead is David Wasserman. Audio
mix and sound design by Joel Cox.
Hosts And Creators
Manuel Delia
John Sweeney
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