November 21, 2025 • 19 mins
Experiencing “Curse of” withdrawal? We’re bringing you a taste of a show we love: Smart Girl Dumb Questions. In this episode excerpt, host Nayeema Raza asks relationship expert Esther Perel: Why is falling in love harder as we get older? Is it age, apps, materialism, modern feminism, or the trad wife trend? Also … what is worth fighting about in a relationship? AND: if you’re seeing a therapist for 10 years, is the therapy working?
To get the full conversation, follow Smart Girl Dumb Questions on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Tuesday ... and you can already binge dozens of episodes of this "curiosity party in a podcast."
Enjoy! ... and if you're curious, find @nayeemaraza and @smartgirldumbquestions on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Naima Raza.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Like all of you, I have been living for Curse
of America's Next Top Model. So to help with your
and my withdrawal from season one, Bridget invited me to
share a little bit about my weekly show, which is
called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll play you a taste
of a recent episode I did with Astair Perrell, the
renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert, as we unpack why love
feels so hard these days. Have a listen, and if
(00:24):
you like it, you can get the full conversation by
searching for Smart Girl Dumb Questions wherever you get your podcasts,
and you can follow or subscribe to the show for
new episodes every Tuesday. Astaire Parrell, thank you so much
for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
For those of you not familiar with Ustair's work, She's
written two international bestsellers. She's given ted talks that have
been viewed over fifty million times. She's a keen observer
of what's happening in our relationships, not just in our
love lives, but at work in all the ways that
we relate to one another. I think you're really an
expert on humans on.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
What humans do to eat, children, experience sweety children, and
long from each other and.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Long from each other. I want to know what you
long for. We're going to get there. I have questions
for you about why is it harder to fall in
love as time goes on. I can't tell if it's age,
or if it's this modern life, or if there's something
about me. And I also want to start, though, with
something a little bit nostalgic, which is the first time
we met, because we're also friends Estherah and I.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I have an image of us walking out of a
building on the street. But what were we doing in
that building?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Was that the Spotify building?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yes? But what were we doing this?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
We were chatting, and we were chatting off the record,
and yet I wanted to buy some tape from it today.
Is that okay?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Of the records that you recorded me?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, I remember, I asked you for your permission, but
it was for my own notes. It was for my
own notes, and I kept it and if it's okay,
I'll play it for you or if you don't like
curiosity is odd? I know that this is the whole
point of the show, Smart Girl, Dumb questions.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
We are wanting something that is at the opposite of
where we are living. When you live in Pakistan, when
your mother lives in Pakistan, because you're already the generation
moving and so you are super rich and fascinating and
fucked up because you are constantly negotiating. It makes you
(02:17):
the most pertinent global citizen and an amazing journalist, but
you are constantly translating between different value systems. Well as
your mother, she knew what was expected from her as
a wife, as a mother, as a woman, as a daughter,
and as a pious press.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
The rules were clear. The rules weren't clear. The norms
are clear, the expectations are clear. There's a lot of
certainty here, very little freedom. There's a lot of freedom
here and very good consurdity because everything now has to
be negotiated. Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. What
do you think hearing that, I still like that.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I think that one of the most interesting shifts that
has taken place in the realm of relationships is the
shift from relationships that are defined by duty and obligation,
by loyalty and community, to relationships that became defined by
(03:22):
feelings rather than values, and by personal authenticity rather than loyalty.
And I think that the majority of the world is
still living with the very first model. But there are
so many people on this planet. You are one of
them who are constantly straddling both. And the reason I
(03:42):
said to you all of this, it's all coming back.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
The reason you told me unfact.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I said, I mean confused, it is probably better. It's rich,
it's very layered, it's it's you know, it's because that
same weekend you were going to Washington to visit your father,
and I said, how much do you live between these
two worlds? You know, the world where you had very
little freedom, with a lot of clarity and certainty, and
(04:08):
the world where you have a ton of freedom. But
you are often written with self doubt and with uncertainty,
as we are today here in the way, especially when
it comes to our romantic relationships. So I don't know
that one is better than the other.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I love that, and I love that you still think
this way. Because this was seven years ago. I was like,
here's esther prow this. You know, you were really on
up at that time as well. I think your career
was like you still are, but that was like you
were taking off in a way, and that was the
first year. Yeah, the first year of that takeoff, and
I thought, I really appreciate it. Was like, oh, she
basically diagnosed me, But she also diagnosed a lot of
(04:45):
our society. Because it isn't just about international and cultural
it's about the way in which the role of a
woman has changed tremendously between a generation. And I guess
my first question for you is, has feminism fucked us?
Has this idea of this changing role of women in
(05:05):
some way put us an extension between what this old
world and this new world and in this constant sense
of negotiation and self doubt.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I absolutely wouldn't say that it has sucked us up.
I think that that's not a way I think. I
think it's an extremely important movement in the history of
people of humankind, for men and women and everybody included. So,
but I do think that change happens in multiple phases.
(05:38):
You can make a declaration, you can change the law,
you can open doors, but what follows in terms of
the intricacies of the experience takes more than one generation.
You know, every time I want to be critical of feminism,
I only have to think about the places where women
have zero voice or power or protection. I have to
(06:02):
think about my own grandmother, who you know, the gap
between where she was and where I am. I have
to think even with my mother and how she was
a full time working person. We lived above the store,
so I saw her working morning and night. The store
was opened some days till nine o'clock. She came upstairs.
She cooked her two meals made from scratch, and there
(06:25):
was no complaint. But her aspiration inside was that is
there a different way? Is there a way that she
didn't have to carry some of the burdens that she
was carrying. And then came the next generation, which began
to say, if I do all these things, you partner,
(06:46):
she should do those things too. And then came my generation,
which is basically the designer generation. I get to design
my relationship, but that demands that I know what I want.
You know, authenticity and to be true to ourselves is
not an easy thing to come by, and certainly not
in your twenties. So when you say what's changed, you
(07:09):
know in the sixties, eighty percent of people in their
twenties in the United States were married. Today in twenty
percent of people in their twenties are marriage.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I don't even think eighty percent of people in their
thirties are married.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
But that means that, you know, our parents' generation saw
marriage as a cornerstone experience. I meet you, and together
we build the foundation of our life. We have developed
the capstone experience of marriage, marriage or committed relationships, it
doesn't matter. But the capstone thing means I've already developed.
(07:44):
I've already built myself. I'm already on a certain track.
I have an idea of what I want where I
stand in the world, and you come as a confirmation
of who I am. You come to help me preserve
my hard one identity.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And so much of our culture is like self help,
self life, self.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Too much self in front of every word.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yes, yes, what word would you put there instead of self?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Other?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Other others?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You know, I think that the the over index, the
over emphasis on the self at a detriment of our
ability to actually think about others, is not necessarily helping
us at this point, right.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I see the shift you're talking about from the other
to ourself, and I think about it a lot, especially
because of my cultural words. As you said, I want
to visit my father, and after my father passed away,
I wrote a whole piece about how obligation gives doesn't
just take. It gives a lot. But I also think
that there's this realness story.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And I think that we need more people in that sense,
like you, you know you, it's very natural for you
to write that piece, but in fact it's not a
natural piece for others who know you to read, and
it puts them in front of another dimension. You know,
Obligation is not hot at this moment, it's not popular.
(09:03):
Authenticity and personal truth and honesty is much more, you know,
and we will forego our relationships at this moment in
order to preserve this authenticity. And what you're saying is
a relational model, which I think we could really use
hearing a lot more about because it directly connects to
(09:25):
everything else people want to discuss about loneliness xcept these
things are connected, except.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I think, like you said, like you diagnosed the first
time I met. It's extremely challenging because I have this
other orientation. I want to be, you know, dutiful, and
I want to in many ways model parts of what
my mother has done. But I also have this real
tension and expectation and experience of being a highly independent, individualized,
you know, person in this world with a lot of freedom,
(09:54):
a lot of choice. So that's why I ask the
question that feminism fuck us. I ask it partly rhetorically,
but I also think there's a changing role of women
that is objectively good and yet hasn't been captured and
really dealt with as a society. For what you're saying,
it's it's going to be multi generational for it to
be absorbed.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Correct, it needs to metabolize. But I think if you're
asking about the foundations of changing the dynamic between the roles,
you know, I mean you. I came to hear you
do a leader dialogue or a debate recently about masculinity.
You know what was at a comedy seller, right, And
(10:37):
the interesting thing is that the person started to talk
by talking about the Women's Revolution and that that revolution
actually hadn't just changed the life of women, but it
had actually changed the lives of men, and it gave
birth to a very very important development, which is the
making of modern fatherhood, which is a huge but we
(10:58):
don't talk about that in of the revolution. You know,
the men's movement we just we've decided that the women
had a revolution and the men have not had it yet,
but we do know.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Do you think they've had it? Have men had a
revolution yet? Like a feminist revolution?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
But from me, I think that women have had about
fifty sixty years of examining their lives and their position
in this world, and their aspirations and rights and narratives,
and I think that men have not had it in
a systematic a way. There are pockets, but they have not,
And I think that in that sense, the restrictions are
(11:34):
much stronger on the men.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Does there need to be a masculinity revolution?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I don't think if it as a revolution, I think
that that everybody stands to gain from revisiting taboos, rigidities,
set norms, and constraining and constricting narratives and roles. What's wrong?
I mean, that's kind of an obvious thing. Why would
(12:01):
why Why wouldn't we? And I think that it would
change the lives of many. But that's the point of view,
right right? Is status quo something that must be preserved
or is there something inherently good in revisiting social norms?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Well, right now it seems like we're in a moment
of reckoning with social norms, because I mean, I'm sure
you've read a lot about the tradwife revolution or the
kind of interesting it's not a revolution, yes, okay, the
trade wife trend, yes, the tradwife trend, yes, the kind
of women looking for a guy and finance sex five,
et cetera trend. Do you see any of these as like,
(12:38):
are these extremely nostalgic or they reactions to our time?
How do you make sense of these gender role like reassertions?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Every time you go to see an exhibit on the generate.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Art every every Tuesday for me, yes, I.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Mean there have been amazing exhibits of that. You get
a sense as to what was considered degenerate. And one
of the first things that was considered degenerate is gender
roles that become more fluid, And what was considered degenerate
was kind of a blurring between fiction and reality and
what was considered more fluid, you know it. So the
(13:16):
opposite of that is that you then't look at what
was the art that was actually revered, and it was
a table of people around, you know, all impeccably dressed
with the woman who is serving the whole clan of
the family and who finds meaning in that subservience, and
there is order, there is clarity of roles, there is
(13:37):
hierarchy of gender, and that is extremely comforting. So I
don't know that I would call it just nostalgic. I
think that wherever you have rises of authoritarianism and where
in the world, it is accompanied with a redefinition of
rigid gender roles, traditional gender roles. If you redefine the
(14:01):
role of the woman, you redefine the role of the men. Right,
they are interdependent. The trad wife does not exist without
a counterpart. She's always accompanied by.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
That makes it sound like it's something that's happening, But
I think women are lasting for something. I think there's
a sense of like, I kind of think.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
They may participate in this the same you know, it's
not that it is imposed on them, but it is
related to a recreation of a certain social order that
is broader than just gender, and it comes with authoritarianism
autocratic regimes. The same thing happens around sexuality.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I had a conversation with you. Never forget the first
question he asked me is why does every authoritarian regime
come with an instant repression around sexuality. It's messy, and
authoritarianism doesn't like messy blurred lines, blurred roles.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
And all of that.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Trad Wives is very clear. You know, you've defined it
to me. The way she dresses, she cooks, she bakes, she's,
she's she can mean, you know, the whole, and that
art exists. I mean, it's very interesting to look at
it historically because it brought a sense of structure order.
(15:16):
Everyone knows their place, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Also, like about what you said, what is considered degenerate
at the time is like an opposition to whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
The generate is always considered the same thing. The blurring
is considered degenerate. The blurring of genders is the general.
The blurring of higher chides the general.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So it's not like it's not like child wives are
degenerate because they're pushing against the current. It's always know, what.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Is considered not okay is kids who think that they
have too much importance, rather than there are little ones
that are very nicely, obedient and dressed and stand by
you like this. You know, I wish everybody else wishes
their kids would stand like that, nice nicely next to them.
Everybody is in their place, which makes it easier for
others to move them.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Right, to control the system. So there's also this other
narrative right now that men are being commoditized. Did you
watch them? You watch the movie Materialists? Yes, okay, what
did you think of the Materialists as a concept the relationship,
not the film, but the idea for this.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
It's all in the math.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, it's all a transaction.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
It's all in the math.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yes, you agree that that's how our culture looks at it.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I think that there is something about that in our culture. Yes,
I think this is consumerism marrying romanticism becoming romantic consumerism. Yeah,
that's it's it's you know, it's emotional capitalism.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
So the idea, I mean, the way the film for
people who haven't seen it came out.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
He's a ten, he's a ten, he's a unicorn, she's
a six, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I mean, it's just amazing everyone has a number. And
then to promote the film, they put a stock price
ticker literally at the you know, the New York Stock Exchange,
that had men and their height and their salaries, and
they were running them up and down as if it
was a exchange. It is terrible do you think, do
you think that sex has become commoditized these days? Or
(17:08):
not sex the act of sex, but relationship has become commoritized, consumerized,
you say, And then yes I do. And who is
the commodity the days is that people? Men is more women, everybody.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Everybody, people are the commodity. I mean, you know, the
concept of emotional capitalism is an interesting crossover, right because
what happens is that on the one hand, you have
all these psychological terms that have entered the business world,
and we talk about psychological safety, and we talk about
authenticity and we talk about vulnerability. But on the other end,
you have an entire business mentality that has entered romantic love,
(17:43):
you know, And we're going to hedge our bets and
we're going to negotiate the best deals, and it's in
the midst of that we're going to somehow find love.
But we are bringing in an enormously transactional what will
satisfy me? What is on my list? What am I
looking for? And when I don't like it, I dump
(18:04):
a ghost, I photo, I go on to the next
and I swipe. And disembodied experiences make you forget that
there's actually a human being on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And as soon maybe there won't be a human being.
People are having romantic relationships with their ais now they
may yes, would you all things equal? Rather date in
nineteen eighty five or twenty twenty five? Oh all right,
Chris of ANTM Family, a little cliffhanger there for you.
Estair's answer, by the way, really surprise me. So if
(18:36):
you want to hear it, search for Smart Girl Dumb
Questions wherever you get your podcasts and you can start
listening around minute nineteen so you don't feel like you
have to start and listen to the whole thing. Oliver again,
and by the way, please follow the Smart Girl Dumb Questions.
New episodes of the show drop every Tuesday. And you
may love my conversation with Brooke Devard when I ask
her is beauty just capitalism? Or with Tamson Fidel when
I ask her what's a woman's prime? Or with therapist
(18:58):
Ellen Bora because we talk talk about if everyone has anxiety?
Does anyone have anxiety? And if you have dumb questions
you want answered, please email me. I'm Meema Raza one
oh one at gmail dot com. Great to meet you, guys,
and hope to see you on Smart Girl, Dumb Questions,
Hi, I'm Naima Raza.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Like all of you, I have been living for Curse
of America's Next Top Model. So to help with your
and my withdrawal from season one, Bridget invited me to
share a little bit about my weekly show, which is
called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll play you a taste
of a recent episode I did with Astair Perrell, the
renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert, as we unpack why love
feels so hard these days. Have a listen, and if
(00:24):
you like it, you can get the full conversation by
searching for Smart Girl Dumb Questions wherever you get your podcasts,
and you can follow or subscribe to the show for
new episodes every Tuesday. Astaire Parrell, thank you so much
for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
For those of you not familiar with Ustair's work, She's
written two international bestsellers. She's given ted talks that have
been viewed over fifty million times. She's a keen observer
of what's happening in our relationships, not just in our
love lives, but at work in all the ways that
we relate to one another. I think you're really an
expert on humans on.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
What humans do to eat, children, experience sweety children, and
long from each other and.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Long from each other. I want to know what you
long for. We're going to get there. I have questions
for you about why is it harder to fall in
love as time goes on. I can't tell if it's age,
or if it's this modern life, or if there's something
about me. And I also want to start, though, with
something a little bit nostalgic, which is the first time
we met, because we're also friends Estherah and I.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I have an image of us walking out of a
building on the street. But what were we doing in
that building?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Was that the Spotify building?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yes? But what were we doing this?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
We were chatting, and we were chatting off the record,
and yet I wanted to buy some tape from it today.
Is that okay?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Of the records that you recorded me?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, I remember, I asked you for your permission, but
it was for my own notes. It was for my
own notes, and I kept it and if it's okay,
I'll play it for you or if you don't like
curiosity is odd? I know that this is the whole
point of the show, Smart Girl, Dumb questions.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
We are wanting something that is at the opposite of
where we are living. When you live in Pakistan, when
your mother lives in Pakistan, because you're already the generation
moving and so you are super rich and fascinating and
fucked up because you are constantly negotiating. It makes you
(02:17):
the most pertinent global citizen and an amazing journalist, but
you are constantly translating between different value systems. Well as
your mother, she knew what was expected from her as
a wife, as a mother, as a woman, as a daughter,
and as a pious press.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
The rules were clear. The rules weren't clear. The norms
are clear, the expectations are clear. There's a lot of
certainty here, very little freedom. There's a lot of freedom
here and very good consurdity because everything now has to
be negotiated. Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. What
do you think hearing that, I still like that.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I think that one of the most interesting shifts that
has taken place in the realm of relationships is the
shift from relationships that are defined by duty and obligation,
by loyalty and community, to relationships that became defined by
(03:22):
feelings rather than values, and by personal authenticity rather than loyalty.
And I think that the majority of the world is
still living with the very first model. But there are
so many people on this planet. You are one of
them who are constantly straddling both. And the reason I
(03:42):
said to you all of this, it's all coming back.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
The reason you told me unfact.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I said, I mean confused, it is probably better. It's rich,
it's very layered, it's it's you know, it's because that
same weekend you were going to Washington to visit your father,
and I said, how much do you live between these
two worlds? You know, the world where you had very
little freedom, with a lot of clarity and certainty, and
(04:08):
the world where you have a ton of freedom. But
you are often written with self doubt and with uncertainty,
as we are today here in the way, especially when
it comes to our romantic relationships. So I don't know
that one is better than the other.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I love that, and I love that you still think
this way. Because this was seven years ago. I was like,
here's esther prow this. You know, you were really on
up at that time as well. I think your career
was like you still are, but that was like you
were taking off in a way, and that was the
first year. Yeah, the first year of that takeoff, and
I thought, I really appreciate it. Was like, oh, she
basically diagnosed me, But she also diagnosed a lot of
(04:45):
our society. Because it isn't just about international and cultural
it's about the way in which the role of a
woman has changed tremendously between a generation. And I guess
my first question for you is, has feminism fucked us?
Has this idea of this changing role of women in
(05:05):
some way put us an extension between what this old
world and this new world and in this constant sense
of negotiation and self doubt.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I absolutely wouldn't say that it has sucked us up.
I think that that's not a way I think. I
think it's an extremely important movement in the history of
people of humankind, for men and women and everybody included. So,
but I do think that change happens in multiple phases.
(05:38):
You can make a declaration, you can change the law,
you can open doors, but what follows in terms of
the intricacies of the experience takes more than one generation.
You know, every time I want to be critical of feminism,
I only have to think about the places where women
have zero voice or power or protection. I have to
(06:02):
think about my own grandmother, who you know, the gap
between where she was and where I am. I have
to think even with my mother and how she was
a full time working person. We lived above the store,
so I saw her working morning and night. The store
was opened some days till nine o'clock. She came upstairs.
She cooked her two meals made from scratch, and there
(06:25):
was no complaint. But her aspiration inside was that is
there a different way? Is there a way that she
didn't have to carry some of the burdens that she
was carrying. And then came the next generation, which began
to say, if I do all these things, you partner,
(06:46):
she should do those things too. And then came my generation,
which is basically the designer generation. I get to design
my relationship, but that demands that I know what I want.
You know, authenticity and to be true to ourselves is
not an easy thing to come by, and certainly not
in your twenties. So when you say what's changed, you
(07:09):
know in the sixties, eighty percent of people in their
twenties in the United States were married. Today in twenty
percent of people in their twenties are marriage.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I don't even think eighty percent of people in their
thirties are married.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
But that means that, you know, our parents' generation saw
marriage as a cornerstone experience. I meet you, and together
we build the foundation of our life. We have developed
the capstone experience of marriage, marriage or committed relationships, it
doesn't matter. But the capstone thing means I've already developed.
(07:44):
I've already built myself. I'm already on a certain track.
I have an idea of what I want where I
stand in the world, and you come as a confirmation
of who I am. You come to help me preserve
my hard one identity.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And so much of our culture is like self help,
self life, self.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Too much self in front of every word.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yes, yes, what word would you put there instead of self?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Other?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Other others?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You know, I think that the the over index, the
over emphasis on the self at a detriment of our
ability to actually think about others, is not necessarily helping
us at this point, right.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I see the shift you're talking about from the other
to ourself, and I think about it a lot, especially
because of my cultural words. As you said, I want
to visit my father, and after my father passed away,
I wrote a whole piece about how obligation gives doesn't
just take. It gives a lot. But I also think
that there's this realness story.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And I think that we need more people in that sense,
like you, you know you, it's very natural for you
to write that piece, but in fact it's not a
natural piece for others who know you to read, and
it puts them in front of another dimension. You know,
Obligation is not hot at this moment, it's not popular.
(09:03):
Authenticity and personal truth and honesty is much more, you know,
and we will forego our relationships at this moment in
order to preserve this authenticity. And what you're saying is
a relational model, which I think we could really use
hearing a lot more about because it directly connects to
(09:25):
everything else people want to discuss about loneliness xcept these
things are connected, except.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
I think, like you said, like you diagnosed the first
time I met. It's extremely challenging because I have this
other orientation. I want to be, you know, dutiful, and
I want to in many ways model parts of what
my mother has done. But I also have this real
tension and expectation and experience of being a highly independent, individualized,
you know, person in this world with a lot of freedom,
(09:54):
a lot of choice. So that's why I ask the
question that feminism fuck us. I ask it partly rhetorically,
but I also think there's a changing role of women
that is objectively good and yet hasn't been captured and
really dealt with as a society. For what you're saying,
it's it's going to be multi generational for it to
be absorbed.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Correct, it needs to metabolize. But I think if you're
asking about the foundations of changing the dynamic between the roles,
you know, I mean you. I came to hear you
do a leader dialogue or a debate recently about masculinity.
You know what was at a comedy seller, right, And
(10:37):
the interesting thing is that the person started to talk
by talking about the Women's Revolution and that that revolution
actually hadn't just changed the life of women, but it
had actually changed the lives of men, and it gave
birth to a very very important development, which is the
making of modern fatherhood, which is a huge but we
(10:58):
don't talk about that in of the revolution. You know,
the men's movement we just we've decided that the women
had a revolution and the men have not had it yet,
but we do know.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Do you think they've had it? Have men had a
revolution yet? Like a feminist revolution?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
But from me, I think that women have had about
fifty sixty years of examining their lives and their position
in this world, and their aspirations and rights and narratives,
and I think that men have not had it in
a systematic a way. There are pockets, but they have not,
And I think that in that sense, the restrictions are
(11:34):
much stronger on the men.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Does there need to be a masculinity revolution?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I don't think if it as a revolution, I think
that that everybody stands to gain from revisiting taboos, rigidities,
set norms, and constraining and constricting narratives and roles. What's wrong?
I mean, that's kind of an obvious thing. Why would
(12:01):
why Why wouldn't we? And I think that it would
change the lives of many. But that's the point of view,
right right? Is status quo something that must be preserved
or is there something inherently good in revisiting social norms?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Well, right now it seems like we're in a moment
of reckoning with social norms, because I mean, I'm sure
you've read a lot about the tradwife revolution or the
kind of interesting it's not a revolution, yes, okay, the
trade wife trend, yes, the tradwife trend, yes, the kind
of women looking for a guy and finance sex five,
et cetera trend. Do you see any of these as like,
(12:38):
are these extremely nostalgic or they reactions to our time?
How do you make sense of these gender role like reassertions?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Every time you go to see an exhibit on the generate.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Art every every Tuesday for me, yes, I.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Mean there have been amazing exhibits of that. You get
a sense as to what was considered degenerate. And one
of the first things that was considered degenerate is gender
roles that become more fluid, And what was considered degenerate
was kind of a blurring between fiction and reality and
what was considered more fluid, you know it. So the
(13:16):
opposite of that is that you then't look at what
was the art that was actually revered, and it was
a table of people around, you know, all impeccably dressed
with the woman who is serving the whole clan of
the family and who finds meaning in that subservience, and
there is order, there is clarity of roles, there is
(13:37):
hierarchy of gender, and that is extremely comforting. So I
don't know that I would call it just nostalgic. I
think that wherever you have rises of authoritarianism and where
in the world, it is accompanied with a redefinition of
rigid gender roles, traditional gender roles. If you redefine the
(14:01):
role of the woman, you redefine the role of the men. Right,
they are interdependent. The trad wife does not exist without
a counterpart. She's always accompanied by.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
That makes it sound like it's something that's happening, But
I think women are lasting for something. I think there's
a sense of like, I kind of think.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
They may participate in this the same you know, it's
not that it is imposed on them, but it is
related to a recreation of a certain social order that
is broader than just gender, and it comes with authoritarianism
autocratic regimes. The same thing happens around sexuality.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I had a conversation with you. Never forget the first
question he asked me is why does every authoritarian regime
come with an instant repression around sexuality. It's messy, and
authoritarianism doesn't like messy blurred lines, blurred roles.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
And all of that.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Trad Wives is very clear. You know, you've defined it
to me. The way she dresses, she cooks, she bakes, she's,
she's she can mean, you know, the whole, and that
art exists. I mean, it's very interesting to look at
it historically because it brought a sense of structure order.
(15:16):
Everyone knows their place, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Also, like about what you said, what is considered degenerate
at the time is like an opposition to whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
The generate is always considered the same thing. The blurring
is considered degenerate. The blurring of genders is the general.
The blurring of higher chides the general.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So it's not like it's not like child wives are
degenerate because they're pushing against the current. It's always know, what.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Is considered not okay is kids who think that they
have too much importance, rather than there are little ones
that are very nicely, obedient and dressed and stand by
you like this. You know, I wish everybody else wishes
their kids would stand like that, nice nicely next to them.
Everybody is in their place, which makes it easier for
others to move them.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Right, to control the system. So there's also this other
narrative right now that men are being commoditized. Did you
watch them? You watch the movie Materialists? Yes, okay, what
did you think of the Materialists as a concept the relationship,
not the film, but the idea for this.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
It's all in the math.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, it's all a transaction.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
It's all in the math.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yes, you agree that that's how our culture looks at it.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I think that there is something about that in our culture. Yes,
I think this is consumerism marrying romanticism becoming romantic consumerism. Yeah,
that's it's it's you know, it's emotional capitalism.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
So the idea, I mean, the way the film for
people who haven't seen it came out.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
He's a ten, he's a ten, he's a unicorn, she's
a six, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I mean, it's just amazing everyone has a number. And
then to promote the film, they put a stock price
ticker literally at the you know, the New York Stock Exchange,
that had men and their height and their salaries, and
they were running them up and down as if it
was a exchange. It is terrible do you think, do
you think that sex has become commoditized these days? Or
(17:08):
not sex the act of sex, but relationship has become commoritized, consumerized,
you say, And then yes I do. And who is
the commodity the days is that people? Men is more women, everybody.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Everybody, people are the commodity. I mean, you know, the
concept of emotional capitalism is an interesting crossover, right because
what happens is that on the one hand, you have
all these psychological terms that have entered the business world,
and we talk about psychological safety, and we talk about
authenticity and we talk about vulnerability. But on the other end,
you have an entire business mentality that has entered romantic love,
(17:43):
you know, And we're going to hedge our bets and
we're going to negotiate the best deals, and it's in
the midst of that we're going to somehow find love.
But we are bringing in an enormously transactional what will
satisfy me? What is on my list? What am I
looking for? And when I don't like it, I dump
(18:04):
a ghost, I photo, I go on to the next
and I swipe. And disembodied experiences make you forget that
there's actually a human being on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
And as soon maybe there won't be a human being.
People are having romantic relationships with their ais now they
may yes, would you all things equal? Rather date in
nineteen eighty five or twenty twenty five? Oh all right,
Chris of ANTM Family, a little cliffhanger there for you.
Estair's answer, by the way, really surprise me. So if
(18:36):
you want to hear it, search for Smart Girl Dumb
Questions wherever you get your podcasts and you can start
listening around minute nineteen so you don't feel like you
have to start and listen to the whole thing. Oliver again,
and by the way, please follow the Smart Girl Dumb Questions.
New episodes of the show drop every Tuesday. And you
may love my conversation with Brooke Devard when I ask
her is beauty just capitalism? Or with Tamson Fidel when
I ask her what's a woman's prime? Or with therapist
(18:58):
Ellen Bora because we talk talk about if everyone has anxiety?
Does anyone have anxiety? And if you have dumb questions
you want answered, please email me. I'm Meema Raza one
oh one at gmail dot com. Great to meet you, guys,
and hope to see you on Smart Girl, Dumb Questions,
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