October 14, 2025 • 42 mins
CONTENT WARNING: This episode mentions sexual assault, suicide, and suicidal ideation.
We continue our discussion about the ANTM psychological evaluation. We hear from models who say the traumatic experiences they shared with the show’s psychologists were later used to manipulate them for the cameras. We discuss contestants who may have slipped through the cracks of the psych eval and later met tragic ends. Then we explore the story of one model who says being on ANTM sent her into a downward spiral towards drugs and crime.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On this episode, we're continuing to look into ANTM psychological
evaluations and how they were really used. If you haven't
listened to our first episode on the psyche Valves, go
back and listen to that. And before I go on,
I want to say that this episode is particularly dark.
We're talking about trauma, including sexual assault and physical abuse.
(00:24):
We're also talking about suicide and suicidal ideation. Now onto
the episode. While I was doing interviews for this show,
I asked every model I spoke to what they were
told the ANTM psyche vowl was for. Here's what Psycho
twenty four is. Gina Turner said, they.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Were explaining on a stage what the use of the
psyche yowls were for, and it was just like, just
so we can understand you and get to know you
better and just make this a great experience. They didn't
really say it was to manipulate you, or to think
ahead of you, or to think before you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Could, or to put together a certain narrative.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
But once she got cast on the show, that's exactly
how her psyche vole was used. Gina had a traumatic childhood.
She said her mother struggled with drug addiction and because
of that Gina was in and out of foster care
as an adult. She experienced sexual assault, in suicidal ideation.
She told the show psychologists all of this. Gina expected
(01:24):
that what she told them would stay in those rooms,
that it was all necessary information to ensure everyone's safety.
Gina was cast on the show, but once the camera
started rolling, she discovered that those deeply traumatic experiences she
shared in her psyche Vile had been given to A
and TM producers. Gina had a whirlwin of a season.
(01:47):
She was eliminated, brought back, eliminated again, then saved, and
went on to become one of two finalists, only to
lose the competition in the finale. After one of those eliminations,
the producers pulled for an exit interview.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
They interviewed me for seven hours.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
They caught me in a room with an interviewer, a
sound guy, and a cameraman. The majority of that interview
was them poking and prodding at me and asking me
questions about, you know, how traumatizing my childhood was, and
like things I've gone through with my mom, and like
being in and out of foster care, and how was it,
(02:27):
you know, having a mom who you know struggled with
drug addiction and what did that.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Do to you?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
For legal reasons, I have to say this. We can't
confirm what Gina is saying about her mom here, but
according to Gina, she shared this with the A and
TM psychologists and the show producers brought it up in
this confessional. Gina says she started to shut down, but
the producers didn't stop until they got the reaction they wanted.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Then the conversation very quickly turned into them talking about
personal traumas and like my mental health and me talking
about being suicidal. And I just remember, for hours and
hours on end, they just kept focusing on me being suicidal,
and it's like, I just want to talk about something happy.
I don't want to talk about growing up in foster care.
I don't want to talk about what it's like to
(03:14):
see my mom smoke crack through a doorway. I don't
want to I don't want to talk about any of
that shit.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
And like it was specifically about the suicidal thing.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I was exhausted, I was physically self exhausted, and.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I remember putting my handsmo it and I was like,
I don't want to talk about it anymore, and I'm crying.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I wanted to an American on some Model.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I thought I could do it.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Anymore, but that is literally the clip that they used
for how I emotionally responded for losing the competition, and
that will forever stick with me, like my exit from
that show visually, at least the way it was presented
was actually me talking about being suicidal.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Gina would be the last Top Model contestant to experience
this kind of pressure and manipulation because that clip we
just heard was from the final episode of A and
TM ever made after fifteen years, the show went off
the air in twenty eighteen, and they closed it out
the same way they started.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
They still couldn't put me in a positive light. They
still couldn't empower me. They still tried to like keep
me boxed into this like poor pitiful underdog girl, And
for that, I can say, fuck them.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, I want to beyond some. You want to beyond some?
Speaker 6 (04:43):
To be on.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Bridget or I'm Strong. On this episode, we're continuing our
deep dive into ANTM psychological evaluations. Last episode, you heard
the models say they were told their conversations with the
(05:06):
show psychologists were to make sure they were a safe
choice for the show. They told the psychologists their deepest,
darkest secrets because that's what they were asked to do.
Like Gina, most contestants thought they were speaking to the
psychologists in confidence, but they were wrong. I've talked to
contestants who say their traumatic experiences were later used by
(05:27):
producers to manipulate them for the cameras. The fact that
producers were even allowed to do that was buried deep
in the contestants' contracts. And then there's the lingering question
about the real purpose of the psyche Vow. There are
several contestants whose trauma history and history with suicidal ideation
(05:48):
should have gotten them red flagged by the show psychologists.
After A and TM, some of those contestants turned to
drugs and alcohol, and one even took her own life.
In the contract the contestants sign, they waived their rights
to confidentiality, meaning if the psychologists unearthed something in the
(06:08):
psyche Vow that made a potential cast member a danger,
they had the permission to share with producers, which makes sense,
But they also had permission to share anything else they
found out in the evaluations. The contract says quote information
obtained by producers may be used for purposes of selecting
participants and in connection with the program in general, including
(06:30):
but not limited to the production of the program. That
language is pretty vague, but that one line gave producers
the clearance to use what was shared in the psyche
vow to produce A and TM. If I saw it
the way it was written in the contract, I don't
think I would connect the dots, and most of the
models I talked to told me they didn't understand this
(06:51):
part of the process. ANTM made a point of telling
contestants the psyche vow was for their safety, but they
didn't mention it it's other youth, maybe because they knew
the contestants wouldn't be so forthcoming with their personal trauma
if they knew how it would be used. Producers bringing
(07:11):
up contestants deepest trauma on set seemed to be a
pattern for A and TM. Sarah Hartthorn saw it on
cycle nine. Somebody had a.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Sick relative, a very sick relative that they were close to,
and they would ask them about it all the time.
They would push her and push her and push her like,
are you afraid they're going.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
To die while you're here? Are you afraid that if
you don't win, you will have missed out on time
with them? In vain and even more disturbing, UV Gomez
from Cycle four told me something she opened up about
during her A and TM psyche val was later shared
with the producers of Tyra's talk show without UV's provision.
Speaker 8 (07:55):
They asked us all these questions about like our early
childhood or life or tru and the Tyers show called
me because I had a pretty traumatic childhood to say
the least, and they used some of the information that
I had told them for America's Next Something Model about
my family and they were like, we're doing the show
(08:17):
where you confront family, and we know your mom was
a very absent mother and there were some of youse
and neglect. We want you to come on the show
and confront her about it. I said, absolute, freakolutely not.
We'll talk to each other face to face. I ain't
taken her on TV to call my mom out. But
(08:37):
the fact that they did that I felt violated that
they used that. It felt very grimy. We were there
talking to a psychologist about all our woes and struggles
and then you're gonna bring it back up.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It just felt very yucky. Again, for legal reasons, I
have to say this. We can't confirm what UV is
saying about her mom here, but this is what she says.
She told the A ANDTM psychologists, and somehow that information
later got to the producers of Tyra's talk show. It
was an entirely different program but owned by the same
(09:15):
production company. During my reporting on A ANDTM, this idea
of producers manipulating the contestants with personal trauma from their
past came up a lot. But it wasn't just in
those confessional interviews or behind the scenes. Some models say
their trauma was used to create storylines, conflict, and shocking
(09:37):
moments on the show, and I talked to a producer
who confirmed that. Former A ANDTM creative producer Andrew Patterson
told me that if a contestant shared a fear of
something in the Psyche val, he was told about it
so he could craft photoshoots and runways that would put
the contestant face to face with their fears. The contestant
would either come out triumphant having face their trauma, or
(09:58):
have a complete mal down. Either way, it made good TV.
We throw these elements of fear because it's a competition
reality show. Listen, you know, see how they reacted. I
always thought these photo shoots and runways were designed to
get a reaction out of all the contestants, but Andrew
told me sometimes he would look at their casting files
(10:19):
for personal phobias and design challenges to fuck with specific contestants.
Those photo shoots and runways usually involve spiders or heights,
you know, a little fear factor element. Most people are
afraid of bugs and hanging off the side of tall buildings.
But Lisa the Model says it got a lot more personal.
You've heard from Lisa before. She's the one who peed
(10:42):
in a diaper on cycle five and was later awarded
that controversial win in cycle seventeen. During her initial A
and TM Psychebile, Lisa says she was asked about her
most disgusting experience. Strange question, but Lisa had just been
through something that she couldn't forget.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I had taken care of my grandpa and my grandma.
Me and my grandma were really close and like Grandpa
had just passed away, and at the funeral, my Grandma
had the worst accident ever. It was basically just like
she couldn't control going to the bathroom. So when she
(11:21):
went to the bathroom at the funeral, the service is
going on, she has the hugest accident number two.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I realized she didn't come back. She was with the walker,
and so I went to the bathroom to go check
on her, and I realized that she shit all over herself.
It's all over her dress. She was trying to clean herself.
She doesn't have that much balance. I'm realizing that it's
on the walls because she has it on her hands.
There's poop everywhere, and this is her husband's funeral. So
(11:51):
I'm just like holding in trying to be strong for her,
but I'm also devastated. This smile is disgusting. I cleaned
everything up as fast as I could with just paper,
towels and water. We didn't come out for like twenty minutes.
So we finally came out.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
We were what.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I cleaned this as best we could, but we smelled
like poop, and I just thought, this is the worst
way for my grandma to have this experience.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Lisa says she shared all of this with the show psychologist.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I'm curious of what the other girls said. I guess
my story beat theirs. I guess.
Speaker 10 (12:32):
On cycle five, they had us do a challenge. Guess
what the challenge was. The challenge was to go through
a obstacle course in Kalmanor where you're completely covered in Kalmanor.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
You have to like dig yourself in the ground to
get under something not touched things.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Lisa's gonna go first, where's my army grease? Here you go,
It's heaven is top area.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Leave me go right army front all the way down.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Fine, when you get dirty, girl, I love being dirty,
so this actually is nothing to me.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
I just have to add there is some question about
whether it was mud manure or mud mixed with manure,
but either way, it was nasty. That was the whole
point of the challenge.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And then they lock you in the limo. They filled
everything with covered in plastic and made you just sit
in there with each other with the windows up for
about four hours where everyone just smells like poop. And
there's a moment actually that aired on television where I'm
like just sitting in the car and all the girls
are bitching and I'm just a complete silence because I
(13:55):
realized what this is. I realized that they got this
from my story of my grandma. I felt completely manipulated.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
After doing the obstacle course and sitting in the limo,
the contestants had to go to a casting with l
Girl magazine and try to be pretty and charming while
covered with manure or mud or some combination. It's worth
noting Lisa won the challenge. Lisa told me this experience
isn't even the most disturbing thing she shared with the
A and TM psychologist. She says she was very candid
(14:29):
about her difficult childhood and the sexual abuse she survived
after the break. You hear what Lisa shared during her
psyche vile and why I think it should have been
a red flag for producers. Plus, we'll talk about the
other contestants who may have exhibited signs of trauma who
later met tragic ends. As I've been reporting on A
(14:58):
and TM, I noticed the path. I've talked to over
a dozen models for this show and watched hundreds of
their interviews, and I've been alarmed at how many A
ANDTM contestants are abuse survivors. I know abuse is common,
especially for women, but on every cycle there are multiple
contestants with harrowing backgrounds, and something about this pattern sticks
(15:22):
with me because I don't think it's coincidental. Lisa Dematto
told me she shared everything with the ANTM psychologists, including
her darkest childhood trauma.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Cycle five, they had me see three different therapists, but
I passed from all of them, which is also an
important thing to let you know is, according to them,
if you get cast on the show, it means that
you are safe.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Just the heads up, Lisa is going to talk about
childhood sexual abuse. Here's what she told A ANDTM psychologists
and take a deebras. Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
When I went into my psychle evaluations with the therapists
on cycle five, they asked me about my relationship with
my mother, my parents, my upbringing, as they did with everybody.
For me, I had been molested by my mom's boyfriend
from the time I was eight till twelve. My sister
(16:21):
and I just lived in fear. It was a devastating existence.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Lisa says she tried to tell her mom and she
didn't believe her. Instead, she blamed Lisa.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Whenever I would stick up for myself to my mom
and be like, we don't deserve this. She would tell
us like, who do you think you are? Like you're nothing,
Go fucking kill yourself.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's the way my.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Mom would talk to me. So yeah, top Model, the therapist
all knew about.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
This, you know the deal. Legally, I have to say
I can't confirm the things Lisa told me about her mother.
But Lisa says when she shared this with the A
ANDTM psychologists, she was still in her early twenties. She
hadn't fully worked through a lot of her trauma. She
(17:13):
said she'd thought about taking her own life before being
on A ANDTM Cycle five. Doctor Stephen Stein is the
psychologist who worked on reality shows like Survivor and Big Brother.
You met him last episode. I asked doctor Stein what
other concerns, aside from aggression and safety issues, would make
him rule out someone as a potential cast member.
Speaker 11 (17:35):
Someone who may show signs of suicide, may have had
experiences or attempted of suicide.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Lisa wasn't the only one who told me she talked
about suicide with the A ANDTM evaluators. Remember, at the
beginning of this episode, Gina says producers pushed her to
talk about her own experience with suicidal thoughts. That was
something that psychologists must have noted before Gina was cast.
Doctor Stein said the other red flag he looks for
(18:04):
are addiction issues. Lisa's edit on Cycle five pretty much
revolved around her perceived drinking problem, and she told me
the stress of being on A and TM contributed to
her drinking.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
I had been drinking because the way they were torturing
me in my interviews. They kept abusing me with my
childhood drama. They kept manipulating my feelings and it was
just devastating. I was trying to self sue. That's what
the drinking was. It was me self soothing.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
After A and TM Cycle five, Lisa did another reality show,
celebri Rehab. That show's premise is in the name famous
people live in a house together while getting help for
drug and alcohol issues from a doctor who specializes an addiction.
We don't know if the ANTM psychologists knew anything about
Lisa's potential drinking problem when she auditioned for Cycle five,
(18:59):
but they definitely knew about it when they brought her
back for All Stars. Lisa told me the models on
All Stars understood the show more their second time around,
so they weren't as eager to play into the drama.
Lisa said. When producers couldn't get the juice they needed
in the confessionals, they turned to alcohol.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They had guys there with champagne, so they're like, Okay, well,
if we can't get them from the interviews, we'll get
them right away and see who can get drunk and
get this thing going. I said no to the champagne
probably about five times.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I'm not a mental health professional, but if I'm just
judging based on what doctor Stein told me and the
information I've gathered about the A ANDTM evil, I don't
know if Lisa should have been cast on A and TM.
Even if A ANDTM producers didn't know about her alcohol
abuse and history of suicidal thoughts before cycle five, they
(19:55):
should have known after Lisa told consulting producer Oliver Twist
about how after she was eliminated from cycle five, she
stayed on set in a hotel nearby waiting for the
season to rap, as is the case with all the contestants.
While they were stuck in limbo, Lisa says she and
another contestant faked a suicide attempt as a prank. She
(20:18):
says that got her labeled a liability on set and
sent home immediately. But a few years later, when A
and TM was casting for their All Star season, they
called her and asked her to join the cast, which
she did. There are other models who may have had
serious trauma in their past, models who made it on
(20:39):
the show and later went down dangerous paths. Kimberly Razuski
was a contestant on cycle ten. She had blonde hair
around face and a poudy expression. She had a very cute,
almost baby face that masked the pain she was carrying inside.
Speaker 12 (20:55):
I'm Kim. I'm twenty years old from Western Massachusetts.
Speaker 9 (20:58):
So what do you do for a living?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I work at a bank.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I'm anna teller.
Speaker 6 (21:02):
Do you ever to take money? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
A lot of money?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You do? What do you take money?
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Steal it?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Oh god no the federal offense. Kim's time on the
show was brief. She decided to leave after the first
elimination of the season. Do you want to be here?
Speaker 12 (21:23):
To be completely honest, like the whole fashion thing, it
doesn't interest me at all?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Come here? Why did you come here?
Speaker 12 (21:30):
I've learned how to like express the pictures, but like
the whole designer thing, Like you know, I don't believe
in the whole like you know I need to wear
designer outfits and like you.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
Don't need to wear designer outfits as a model.
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Well I know that, but I'm just saying, like I
don't find it interest.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
Do you want to just go home?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Yeah, all right, go home.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Later after the cycle ended, Kim revealed the real reason
why is she self eliminated. Right before filming, her ex
boyfriend died by suicide and Kim was having a hard
time coping. We don't know if Kim shared this information
with A and TM, but it seems like she might
have because after the season, she was asked to share
(22:16):
the real story on Tyra's talk show. Here's Kim's segment
on the Tyra Show.
Speaker 12 (22:23):
Three months before the show, my ex boyfriend committed suicide.
It was by far the hardest thing I've ever gone through,
and at that point in my life, it was so sudden,
and I rushed into the whole top model thing, which
I actually I loved passion, I loved being that, I
(22:43):
loved meeting Pira and I wanted it so bad, but
I didn't feel good on the inside.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I was a mess.
Speaker 12 (22:51):
You know, I got there and I'm like, this is
just overwhelming. I can't do this right now because all
I have is the death on my mind.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
And boyfriend was not the first person in your life
to commit suicide.
Speaker 12 (23:03):
No, When I was in seventh grade, my mom committed suicide.
So it kind of even made it worse because I
started feeling like, oh my god, what am I doing
to people? Why is everyone around me dying? And I
got into a pretty bad depression and a lot of anxiety.
(23:23):
It was in and out of the hospital, having panic attacks.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
It was hard.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
We might never know how much of this Kimberly shared
with the A ANDTM psychologist, because tragically, Kim took her
own life in twenty sixteen. We don't know if her
participation in the show contributed to her mental health decline,
but we do know the pressure of being on A
ANDTM was too much for her to handle. That's why
(23:50):
she walked off the set herself. But if the show
conducted thorough psyche vows, how did someone like Kim slip
through the cracks? Unfortunately, Kimberly's story is just one of
the A and TM tragedies that raises questions here's a
conversation Jay Manuel had on his YouTube live with drag
Queen Raja, who you may know from RuPaul's Drag Race.
(24:13):
Raja was also a makeup artist on A and TM.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
There's an elephant in the room to this season that
I find a little bit like maybe there was a
curse to it, because we gotta talk about JL and Renee.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
The season they're referring to is cycle eight. That season
had two contestants who faced tough times after the show.
Speaker 9 (24:35):
J L.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Strauss was one of them. JL was the wild child
of her season. She was fun though, like if you
went out with her, you would have the time of
your life, but you might end the night running from
the police. But sometimes her behavior on A and TM
seemed a bit erratic. There was an episode on cycle
(24:56):
eight where the models were being judged on how well
they interacted with celebrities at a party. Fifty Cent was
there and what started out is a seemingly flirty interaction
ended with him pushing her into a pool. Right now, Yeah,
I know, I'm mad.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Dale deserved it because she didn't leave that man alone.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Jayo was being annoying, but pushing her into a pool
took it too far. I swear fifty cent's always been
an asshole. Here's Jasline, the winner of cycle eight, talking
to Oliver Twist. She's recalling Jail's behavior on their season.
Speaker 9 (25:38):
Jayo was a rock star on our season. She's like
reality TV star Gold Gold. But when you think about
some of these personalities now in retrospect, how and why
they were developed that way, there was actually something already
(25:59):
being rooted from her background that was causing her to
kind of outburst the way she would on the show.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, Jaslene seems to be skating around something. We all
saw Jayl's behavior was off. We don't know if JL
had substance abuse issues at the time, and I have
to say there's no evidence that she did, but she
did have friends who were struggling with addiction. We saw
(26:29):
her getting news of a friend's overdose death during her season.
Speaker 6 (26:33):
Jaylle checked her messages and found out that a close
friend of hers had passed away.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Hello, what's going on? She overdose?
Speaker 6 (26:45):
Oh no, okay, I'm gonna call you back because I'm
gonna go because I'm gonna freaking okay.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
After being eliminated from Cycle eight, Jall developed an addiction
to meth and other drugs. In twenty twelve, her family
reached out to the Doctor Phil Show to try to
get her help. When she appeared on the show, she
looked nothing like the beautiful, vibrant model we met on
A and TM a few years before. She was gone
and her skin was blatchy, her teeth had started to write.
(27:20):
She looked way older than twenty nine.
Speaker 13 (27:22):
You're doing drugs, you're living in crappy hotels, you're stripping
in some sleeves ball joint.
Speaker 6 (27:28):
Everyone didn't know all that.
Speaker 13 (27:30):
Oh I didn't.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Where is it everybody's business?
Speaker 13 (27:33):
I didn't bring it up until you lied. If you
had just said yes, then we would have gone on
and talked about something else. Look, I get it, but
you've had a crappy deal all along. What happened to
you when you were ten years old?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Oh my god, I'm talking about that.
Speaker 13 (27:49):
You don't have to talk about it. You know what
I'm talking about, right? And you reached out for help, right?
And did they believe you? No, they didn't believe you.
This isn't just that's your problem. This is a family problem.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Doctor Phil seemed to be alluding to something bad that
happened to jl when she was a kid. I don't
know if she shared that with the A and TM psychologist.
Jelle later said she felt exploited by the Doctor Phil
show and from the tape it sounds like he was
more interested in putting her on blast than actually helping her.
But Jlle eventually got clean. She got a job as
(28:25):
an addiction counselor and remained clean for five years before
tragically passing of breast cancer in twenty eighteen. Other Top
Model contestants, including Carrie D English the Cycle seven winner,
have shared their opinions about Jale's time on ANTM. Carrie
D told Gawker she didn't think A and TM producers
did enough to vet Jail, especially given the stress of
(28:48):
being on the show and the struggles the model's face.
After Carrie D added that quote, all they saw was
a personality good for television. The psyche vow was supposed
to be a guardrail to make sure nothing violent happened
on set, to try to minimize the things the show
could be held liable for or that could harm the production,
(29:11):
But there was a glaring blind spot. It wasn't concerned
with how the show itself might affect contestants' mental health
in the long run. After contestants were sent home, they
told me no one from A ANDTM ever checked in
on them or their mental well being. They thought being
on the show would be their ticket into the modeling industry,
but as we know, many former contestants experienced rejection after rejection,
(29:36):
in part because of how the show betrayed them after
the break. The story of one model who says being
on ANTM sent her into a downwards spiral towards drugs
and crime. Renee Alway made it to the final three
(30:00):
Cycle eight. She did well in the competition, but she
was the season's villain. She had beefs with a few models.
One of them almost came to blows. It got so
bad Tyra came to the house to do an intervention
where Renee was the subject. Tyra sat Renee down beside
her and had each girl go around and say how
(30:20):
Renee had wronged them. You've been negative to everybody so
many times. It's like, how am I going to believe you?
Speaker 10 (30:26):
At the casting wig, You're not say very good things.
Speaker 9 (30:30):
I feel like she has more issues in side that
she has to deal with, because I think that's just.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
All the front.
Speaker 6 (30:35):
She makes a lot of valid points, but she says
that there is stuff going on internally with you.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
When you talk, you had a tendency to talk down
to somebody.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Renee was defensive at first, but after hearing how the
girls felt about her, she showed some vulnerability.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
This is your chance to address all of these girls
right now today. I'm sorry for anything I might said took,
hurt or offend you guys. It's a defense might for myself.
I've been hurt by anybody that I've ever loved besides
my husband and my son has hurt me.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So from that episode on, Renee tried to change her
attitude and she made it to the final three on
that season one thing A and TM Loved a redemption arc.
After she left the show, Renee did the top model
spin off, Modelville, a competition reality show that aired as
a recurring segment on Tyra's talk show. Here's Renee talking
(31:27):
with another contestant, Bianca Golden, about how hard it was
to get modeling jobs after A and TM. It's very
rare for black models to work right now. Yeah, because
it's really hard for me to find work too. And
I'm like, as white.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
As they come.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And here's Renee on Modelville talking about being abused as
a child.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
I went through some horrible things when I was growing up,
and it made me very angry and bitter and just
I don't know how to explain it, Like I just
get angry with people, you know, Like that was my mentality.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
And I was extremely abused when I was growing up.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
And it wasn't just physical, it was mental, emotional, it
was everything.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
So Renee came in second place on Modelville in third
place on ANTM. She did well on both shows, but
that still didn't help her once she got into the
real world. After Modelville, Renee's life took a turn for
the worse. She was a mother, out of work and
desperate to make it as a model. She said she'd
(32:31):
use drugs before A and TM, but this time her
habit got out of control. She developed an addiction to
heroin that led to homelessness and a life of crime.
In twenty thirteen, she was arrested on felony burglary charges
and sentenced to twelve years in prison. She got out
early in twenty eighteen. We couldn't get Renee to do
(32:55):
an interview for this podcast. So I went back to
an interview she did with an ABC afe. It was
taped while Renee was in prison.
Speaker 6 (33:05):
I got into the world and I went I went, okay,
like here I am, you know, ready to do this,
and it was just closed door after closed door after
closed door. That was really hard to take. That was
really hard to take. I felt like a failure because
I couldn't get past the reality TV stigma that had
been put on me.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
It's striking that when Renee was given the opportunity to
speak out after her arrest, she pointed back to A
and TM, saying the show set her up for failure.
Speaker 6 (33:35):
I mean, let's just take a look at I mean
just for America's next top bottle, and let's not look
at any other reality TV competition. How many of those
girls do you see working today?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Very few, even the winners.
Speaker 6 (33:48):
Most of the winners are just on doing their regular
life or barely making it in the industry. It's almost
like a set up for failure. Once you're done with
reality TV, they don't look back at you. There's no
like check on you and see how you're doing.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
It's just over.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
It's done, and it's kind of all this build up
for just a very big letdown.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Like most of the models I've spoken with, Renee never
heard from anyone from the show after she left.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
I can honestly tell you that I did not get
a single phone call from Tyra, from anybody checking up
until they wanted me to do Modelville, and then after
that that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
That was it.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
I mean, once you're out the door, you're out the door,
and they look on to the next which you can't
hardly blame them, because that's their job. Their job is
to keep moving forward and bringing new entertainment to the masses,
and you know, that's what America wants. I can honestly
say that there was never any outreach at all done
after the show. I mean after the elimination, while we
(34:55):
were still there, still filming, a therapist got on the phone,
and you talked to a therapist for about five ten minutes,
and that was the gist of it, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Renee says she doesn't blame A and TM for the
choices she made in the part you didn't hear of
that interview. She takes accountability for her actions. She acknowledges
that lots of models are disappointed with their careers. After
A and TM and they don't turn to drugs or crime.
I understand America's Next Top Model isn't a mentorship program,
(35:27):
no matter how much Tyra tried to sell us the
Big Sister Act. Technically, the show doesn't have any responsibility
to the models after they leave, and realistically not everyone
was going to have a big modeling career. But at
the very least, they could have done something to make
sure the models were prepared to handle the potential let down,
(35:47):
especially the girls who seem like they would take it
the hardest. Offering additional mental health resources to contestants after
a show rap isn't unheard of. In fact, doctor Stephenstein
says something he offers on the shows he works on,
and he's been doing it for decades.
Speaker 11 (36:04):
Generally, what I like to do, and many shows do,
is we give them up to three sessions of therapy
once they have completed the show. So usually I meet
with them all when they're eliminated, see how they're doing.
If we get the sense that somebody needs more help,
I'll refer to someone in their hometown. I'll find a
therapist for them and or choice of three therapists, and
(36:26):
they can continue for two or three sessions or on
their own more than that. Again, it depends on the
show what they're willing to fund.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
From what I've heard, this isn't how it went down
on A and TOM. Even contestants I've spoken to who
shared serious trauma histories or suicidal ideation in their casting
say they received very little follow up from the show psychologists,
And I should point out here that wasn't necessarily the
(36:55):
psychologist's decision. Like doctor Stein said, the level of post
show psychological care all came down to the budget, and
that's a decision made at the very top. Certainly, after
the success of its first few seasons, you'd think A
and TM could have allocated more money for mental health resources,
but they didn't. After she was eliminated, Renee always said
(37:20):
she talked to a therapist for ten minutes on the phone.
Other models I've talked to said something similar. Renee may
be an extreme example of someone who couldn't handle the
reality of life after reality TV, but I know she's
not the only A and TM model who felt disappointed
(37:40):
and depressed after leaving the show. Brittany Brower from Cycle
four is one of the many models I talked to
who felt that way.
Speaker 14 (37:49):
You're on this high from Top Model, and then that
starts to slow down. That's when the depression stage came
and God takes a toll on everything.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Immediately after the show, Brittany was riding the wave of
opportunities that came with her fifteen minutes of fame, but
as that time passed, people forgot about Brittany.
Speaker 14 (38:10):
The next cycle comes up, then another cycle comes up.
It just took me a long time to bounce back
from that. I had to like figure out who I
was really again after Top Models and figure out how
to truly be me, like the strong version of me
again and not be so like let down.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Contestants were told the Psyche Valve measured their mental fitness,
but beyond what they could be held accountable for. A
and TM didn't seem to care much about the contestants
long term well being. That may be well within their rights,
but morally it raises questions. After talking to doctor Stein,
(38:50):
I'm realizing A and TM was a particularly brazen offender
in the world of reality TV. For twenty four seasons,
it picked apart women's traumas and bodies to entertain us,
and afterwards the show didn't even check on them. It
didn't offer resources, which is the least they could do.
(39:11):
That's what other shows are doing at the time, and
it didn't seem to learn or change its process as
the rest of the industry took more accountability for their
contestants well being. Then there's a matter of how they
conducted the psyche vale and how they used them. If
they were about safety, why would they cast contestants they
ruled out as angry or troubled and bring them back
(39:32):
to have confrontations on the show. Why would they cast
contestants who'd shown signs of substance abuse. Why would they
cast contestants who shared their history with suicidal ideation. Why
would they cast a contestant who experienced the suicide of
two loved ones, one of which had just happened. I
think it's because they needed them. They needed people with
(39:56):
traumatic backgrounds, behavioral issues, substance use disorders, and personality disorders,
people who were likely to act out on camera. They
needed these people to entertain us. So in a way,
maybe the psyche vow worked exactly as producers intended, as
a way to find the people they thought they needed
(40:19):
to make a good reality show, which is exactly what
they did. One last thing before we go, we reached
out to the executive producer of A and TM, Ken Mock,
so that he could provide more perspective on the psyche
vowels and what we've discussed in this episode, but we
(40:40):
did not hear from him before airing this episode. On
the next episode, we'll explore how A and TM prioritized
making the best reality TV, not the best models.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
And I get a tap on the back of my
shoulder from Ken Mark say stop it.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
We want to see these girls cry.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
This is gonna make great television.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
And I'll just go back and I'm right, yeah, Ka,
it is Curtifued. A lot of those girls didn't get
looked at as people.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
They were products.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
If they were boring, they got cut. Thanks for listening
to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. We really
appreciate the support. We'd love for you to really show
your support by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts
and don't forget to leave us a five star rating
and review. If you love the show, tell your group, chat,
(41:31):
your co workers, your friends, your mama to check us out.
And if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself.
Thanks again to all of our listeners. The Curse of
America's Next Top Model. It's a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
(41:52):
senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andre Dunning.
Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcurriy, and Curry Richmond.
Consulting producers are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing and
(42:14):
mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vechio. The Curse
of America's Next Top Model theme music was composed by
Oliver Bains. Music library provided by mid Music special Thanks
to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the models
for sharing their stories. And for more podcasts from iHeart,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(42:37):
your podcasts. Also check out the Glass podcast Instagram at
Glass Podcasts for Curse of America's Next Top Model Behind
the scenes content and more
On this episode, we're continuing to look into ANTM psychological
evaluations and how they were really used. If you haven't
listened to our first episode on the psyche Valves, go
back and listen to that. And before I go on,
I want to say that this episode is particularly dark.
We're talking about trauma, including sexual assault and physical abuse.
(00:24):
We're also talking about suicide and suicidal ideation. Now onto
the episode. While I was doing interviews for this show,
I asked every model I spoke to what they were
told the ANTM psyche vowl was for. Here's what Psycho
twenty four is. Gina Turner said, they.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Were explaining on a stage what the use of the
psyche yowls were for, and it was just like, just
so we can understand you and get to know you
better and just make this a great experience. They didn't
really say it was to manipulate you, or to think
ahead of you, or to think before you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Could, or to put together a certain narrative.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
But once she got cast on the show, that's exactly
how her psyche vole was used. Gina had a traumatic childhood.
She said her mother struggled with drug addiction and because
of that Gina was in and out of foster care
as an adult. She experienced sexual assault, in suicidal ideation.
She told the show psychologists all of this. Gina expected
(01:24):
that what she told them would stay in those rooms,
that it was all necessary information to ensure everyone's safety.
Gina was cast on the show, but once the camera
started rolling, she discovered that those deeply traumatic experiences she
shared in her psyche Vile had been given to A
and TM producers. Gina had a whirlwin of a season.
(01:47):
She was eliminated, brought back, eliminated again, then saved, and
went on to become one of two finalists, only to
lose the competition in the finale. After one of those eliminations,
the producers pulled for an exit interview.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
They interviewed me for seven hours.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
They caught me in a room with an interviewer, a
sound guy, and a cameraman. The majority of that interview
was them poking and prodding at me and asking me
questions about, you know, how traumatizing my childhood was, and
like things I've gone through with my mom, and like
being in and out of foster care, and how was it,
(02:27):
you know, having a mom who you know struggled with
drug addiction and what did that.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Do to you?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
For legal reasons, I have to say this. We can't
confirm what Gina is saying about her mom here, but
according to Gina, she shared this with the A and
TM psychologists and the show producers brought it up in
this confessional. Gina says she started to shut down, but
the producers didn't stop until they got the reaction they wanted.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Then the conversation very quickly turned into them talking about
personal traumas and like my mental health and me talking
about being suicidal. And I just remember, for hours and
hours on end, they just kept focusing on me being suicidal,
and it's like, I just want to talk about something happy.
I don't want to talk about growing up in foster care.
I don't want to talk about what it's like to
(03:14):
see my mom smoke crack through a doorway. I don't
want to I don't want to talk about any of
that shit.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
And like it was specifically about the suicidal thing.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I was exhausted, I was physically self exhausted, and.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I remember putting my handsmo it and I was like,
I don't want to talk about it anymore, and I'm crying.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I wanted to an American on some Model.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I thought I could do it.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Anymore, but that is literally the clip that they used
for how I emotionally responded for losing the competition, and
that will forever stick with me, like my exit from
that show visually, at least the way it was presented
was actually me talking about being suicidal.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Gina would be the last Top Model contestant to experience
this kind of pressure and manipulation because that clip we
just heard was from the final episode of A and
TM ever made after fifteen years, the show went off
the air in twenty eighteen, and they closed it out
the same way they started.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
They still couldn't put me in a positive light. They
still couldn't empower me. They still tried to like keep
me boxed into this like poor pitiful underdog girl, And
for that, I can say, fuck them.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, I want to beyond some. You want to beyond some?
Speaker 6 (04:43):
To be on.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Bridget or I'm Strong. On this episode, we're continuing our
deep dive into ANTM psychological evaluations. Last episode, you heard
the models say they were told their conversations with the
(05:06):
show psychologists were to make sure they were a safe
choice for the show. They told the psychologists their deepest,
darkest secrets because that's what they were asked to do.
Like Gina, most contestants thought they were speaking to the
psychologists in confidence, but they were wrong. I've talked to
contestants who say their traumatic experiences were later used by
(05:27):
producers to manipulate them for the cameras. The fact that
producers were even allowed to do that was buried deep
in the contestants' contracts. And then there's the lingering question
about the real purpose of the psyche Vow. There are
several contestants whose trauma history and history with suicidal ideation
(05:48):
should have gotten them red flagged by the show psychologists.
After A and TM, some of those contestants turned to
drugs and alcohol, and one even took her own life.
In the contract the contestants sign, they waived their rights
to confidentiality, meaning if the psychologists unearthed something in the
(06:08):
psyche Vow that made a potential cast member a danger,
they had the permission to share with producers, which makes sense,
But they also had permission to share anything else they
found out in the evaluations. The contract says quote information
obtained by producers may be used for purposes of selecting
participants and in connection with the program in general, including
(06:30):
but not limited to the production of the program. That
language is pretty vague, but that one line gave producers
the clearance to use what was shared in the psyche
vow to produce A and TM. If I saw it
the way it was written in the contract, I don't
think I would connect the dots, and most of the
models I talked to told me they didn't understand this
(06:51):
part of the process. ANTM made a point of telling
contestants the psyche vow was for their safety, but they
didn't mention it it's other youth, maybe because they knew
the contestants wouldn't be so forthcoming with their personal trauma
if they knew how it would be used. Producers bringing
(07:11):
up contestants deepest trauma on set seemed to be a
pattern for A and TM. Sarah Hartthorn saw it on
cycle nine. Somebody had a.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Sick relative, a very sick relative that they were close to,
and they would ask them about it all the time.
They would push her and push her and push her like,
are you afraid they're going.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
To die while you're here? Are you afraid that if
you don't win, you will have missed out on time
with them? In vain and even more disturbing, UV Gomez
from Cycle four told me something she opened up about
during her A and TM psyche val was later shared
with the producers of Tyra's talk show without UV's provision.
Speaker 8 (07:55):
They asked us all these questions about like our early
childhood or life or tru and the Tyers show called
me because I had a pretty traumatic childhood to say
the least, and they used some of the information that
I had told them for America's Next Something Model about
my family and they were like, we're doing the show
(08:17):
where you confront family, and we know your mom was
a very absent mother and there were some of youse
and neglect. We want you to come on the show
and confront her about it. I said, absolute, freakolutely not.
We'll talk to each other face to face. I ain't
taken her on TV to call my mom out. But
(08:37):
the fact that they did that I felt violated that
they used that. It felt very grimy. We were there
talking to a psychologist about all our woes and struggles
and then you're gonna bring it back up.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It just felt very yucky. Again, for legal reasons, I
have to say this. We can't confirm what UV is
saying about her mom here, but this is what she says.
She told the A ANDTM psychologists, and somehow that information
later got to the producers of Tyra's talk show. It
was an entirely different program but owned by the same
(09:15):
production company. During my reporting on A ANDTM, this idea
of producers manipulating the contestants with personal trauma from their
past came up a lot. But it wasn't just in
those confessional interviews or behind the scenes. Some models say
their trauma was used to create storylines, conflict, and shocking
(09:37):
moments on the show, and I talked to a producer
who confirmed that. Former A ANDTM creative producer Andrew Patterson
told me that if a contestant shared a fear of
something in the Psyche val, he was told about it
so he could craft photoshoots and runways that would put
the contestant face to face with their fears. The contestant
would either come out triumphant having face their trauma, or
(09:58):
have a complete mal down. Either way, it made good TV.
We throw these elements of fear because it's a competition
reality show. Listen, you know, see how they reacted. I
always thought these photo shoots and runways were designed to
get a reaction out of all the contestants, but Andrew
told me sometimes he would look at their casting files
(10:19):
for personal phobias and design challenges to fuck with specific contestants.
Those photo shoots and runways usually involve spiders or heights,
you know, a little fear factor element. Most people are
afraid of bugs and hanging off the side of tall buildings.
But Lisa the Model says it got a lot more personal.
You've heard from Lisa before. She's the one who peed
(10:42):
in a diaper on cycle five and was later awarded
that controversial win in cycle seventeen. During her initial A
and TM Psychebile, Lisa says she was asked about her
most disgusting experience. Strange question, but Lisa had just been
through something that she couldn't forget.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I had taken care of my grandpa and my grandma.
Me and my grandma were really close and like Grandpa
had just passed away, and at the funeral, my Grandma
had the worst accident ever. It was basically just like
she couldn't control going to the bathroom. So when she
(11:21):
went to the bathroom at the funeral, the service is
going on, she has the hugest accident number two.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I realized she didn't come back. She was with the walker,
and so I went to the bathroom to go check
on her, and I realized that she shit all over herself.
It's all over her dress. She was trying to clean herself.
She doesn't have that much balance. I'm realizing that it's
on the walls because she has it on her hands.
There's poop everywhere, and this is her husband's funeral. So
(11:51):
I'm just like holding in trying to be strong for her,
but I'm also devastated. This smile is disgusting. I cleaned
everything up as fast as I could with just paper,
towels and water. We didn't come out for like twenty minutes.
So we finally came out.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
We were what.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I cleaned this as best we could, but we smelled
like poop, and I just thought, this is the worst
way for my grandma to have this experience.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Lisa says she shared all of this with the show psychologist.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I'm curious of what the other girls said. I guess
my story beat theirs. I guess.
Speaker 10 (12:32):
On cycle five, they had us do a challenge. Guess
what the challenge was. The challenge was to go through
a obstacle course in Kalmanor where you're completely covered in Kalmanor.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
You have to like dig yourself in the ground to
get under something not touched things.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Lisa's gonna go first, where's my army grease? Here you go,
It's heaven is top area.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Leave me go right army front all the way down.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Fine, when you get dirty, girl, I love being dirty,
so this actually is nothing to me.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
I just have to add there is some question about
whether it was mud manure or mud mixed with manure,
but either way, it was nasty. That was the whole
point of the challenge.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And then they lock you in the limo. They filled
everything with covered in plastic and made you just sit
in there with each other with the windows up for
about four hours where everyone just smells like poop. And
there's a moment actually that aired on television where I'm
like just sitting in the car and all the girls
are bitching and I'm just a complete silence because I
(13:55):
realized what this is. I realized that they got this
from my story of my grandma. I felt completely manipulated.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
After doing the obstacle course and sitting in the limo,
the contestants had to go to a casting with l
Girl magazine and try to be pretty and charming while
covered with manure or mud or some combination. It's worth
noting Lisa won the challenge. Lisa told me this experience
isn't even the most disturbing thing she shared with the
A and TM psychologist. She says she was very candid
(14:29):
about her difficult childhood and the sexual abuse she survived
after the break. You hear what Lisa shared during her
psyche vile and why I think it should have been
a red flag for producers. Plus, we'll talk about the
other contestants who may have exhibited signs of trauma who
later met tragic ends. As I've been reporting on A
(14:58):
and TM, I noticed the path. I've talked to over
a dozen models for this show and watched hundreds of
their interviews, and I've been alarmed at how many A
ANDTM contestants are abuse survivors. I know abuse is common,
especially for women, but on every cycle there are multiple
contestants with harrowing backgrounds, and something about this pattern sticks
(15:22):
with me because I don't think it's coincidental. Lisa Dematto
told me she shared everything with the ANTM psychologists, including
her darkest childhood trauma.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Cycle five, they had me see three different therapists, but
I passed from all of them, which is also an
important thing to let you know is, according to them,
if you get cast on the show, it means that
you are safe.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Just the heads up, Lisa is going to talk about
childhood sexual abuse. Here's what she told A ANDTM psychologists
and take a deebras. Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
When I went into my psychle evaluations with the therapists
on cycle five, they asked me about my relationship with
my mother, my parents, my upbringing, as they did with everybody.
For me, I had been molested by my mom's boyfriend
from the time I was eight till twelve. My sister
(16:21):
and I just lived in fear. It was a devastating existence.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Lisa says she tried to tell her mom and she
didn't believe her. Instead, she blamed Lisa.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Whenever I would stick up for myself to my mom
and be like, we don't deserve this. She would tell
us like, who do you think you are? Like you're nothing,
Go fucking kill yourself.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's the way my.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Mom would talk to me. So yeah, top Model, the therapist
all knew about.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
This, you know the deal. Legally, I have to say
I can't confirm the things Lisa told me about her mother.
But Lisa says when she shared this with the A
ANDTM psychologists, she was still in her early twenties. She
hadn't fully worked through a lot of her trauma. She
(17:13):
said she'd thought about taking her own life before being
on A ANDTM Cycle five. Doctor Stephen Stein is the
psychologist who worked on reality shows like Survivor and Big Brother.
You met him last episode. I asked doctor Stein what
other concerns, aside from aggression and safety issues, would make
him rule out someone as a potential cast member.
Speaker 11 (17:35):
Someone who may show signs of suicide, may have had
experiences or attempted of suicide.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Lisa wasn't the only one who told me she talked
about suicide with the A ANDTM evaluators. Remember, at the
beginning of this episode, Gina says producers pushed her to
talk about her own experience with suicidal thoughts. That was
something that psychologists must have noted before Gina was cast.
Doctor Stein said the other red flag he looks for
(18:04):
are addiction issues. Lisa's edit on Cycle five pretty much
revolved around her perceived drinking problem, and she told me
the stress of being on A and TM contributed to
her drinking.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
I had been drinking because the way they were torturing
me in my interviews. They kept abusing me with my
childhood drama. They kept manipulating my feelings and it was
just devastating. I was trying to self sue. That's what
the drinking was. It was me self soothing.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
After A and TM Cycle five, Lisa did another reality show,
celebri Rehab. That show's premise is in the name famous
people live in a house together while getting help for
drug and alcohol issues from a doctor who specializes an addiction.
We don't know if the ANTM psychologists knew anything about
Lisa's potential drinking problem when she auditioned for Cycle five,
(18:59):
but they definitely knew about it when they brought her
back for All Stars. Lisa told me the models on
All Stars understood the show more their second time around,
so they weren't as eager to play into the drama.
Lisa said. When producers couldn't get the juice they needed
in the confessionals, they turned to alcohol.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They had guys there with champagne, so they're like, Okay, well,
if we can't get them from the interviews, we'll get
them right away and see who can get drunk and
get this thing going. I said no to the champagne
probably about five times.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I'm not a mental health professional, but if I'm just
judging based on what doctor Stein told me and the
information I've gathered about the A ANDTM evil, I don't
know if Lisa should have been cast on A and TM.
Even if A ANDTM producers didn't know about her alcohol
abuse and history of suicidal thoughts before cycle five, they
(19:55):
should have known after Lisa told consulting producer Oliver Twist
about how after she was eliminated from cycle five, she
stayed on set in a hotel nearby waiting for the
season to rap, as is the case with all the contestants.
While they were stuck in limbo, Lisa says she and
another contestant faked a suicide attempt as a prank. She
(20:18):
says that got her labeled a liability on set and
sent home immediately. But a few years later, when A
and TM was casting for their All Star season, they
called her and asked her to join the cast, which
she did. There are other models who may have had
serious trauma in their past, models who made it on
(20:39):
the show and later went down dangerous paths. Kimberly Razuski
was a contestant on cycle ten. She had blonde hair
around face and a poudy expression. She had a very cute,
almost baby face that masked the pain she was carrying inside.
Speaker 12 (20:55):
I'm Kim. I'm twenty years old from Western Massachusetts.
Speaker 9 (20:58):
So what do you do for a living?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I work at a bank.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I'm anna teller.
Speaker 6 (21:02):
Do you ever to take money? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
A lot of money?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You do? What do you take money?
Speaker 5 (21:10):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Steal it?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Oh god no the federal offense. Kim's time on the
show was brief. She decided to leave after the first
elimination of the season. Do you want to be here?
Speaker 12 (21:23):
To be completely honest, like the whole fashion thing, it
doesn't interest me at all?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Come here? Why did you come here?
Speaker 12 (21:30):
I've learned how to like express the pictures, but like
the whole designer thing, Like you know, I don't believe
in the whole like you know I need to wear
designer outfits and like you.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
Don't need to wear designer outfits as a model.
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Well I know that, but I'm just saying, like I
don't find it interest.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
Do you want to just go home?
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Yeah, all right, go home.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Later after the cycle ended, Kim revealed the real reason
why is she self eliminated. Right before filming, her ex
boyfriend died by suicide and Kim was having a hard
time coping. We don't know if Kim shared this information
with A and TM, but it seems like she might
have because after the season, she was asked to share
(22:16):
the real story on Tyra's talk show. Here's Kim's segment
on the Tyra Show.
Speaker 12 (22:23):
Three months before the show, my ex boyfriend committed suicide.
It was by far the hardest thing I've ever gone through,
and at that point in my life, it was so sudden,
and I rushed into the whole top model thing, which
I actually I loved passion, I loved being that, I
(22:43):
loved meeting Pira and I wanted it so bad, but
I didn't feel good on the inside.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I was a mess.
Speaker 12 (22:51):
You know, I got there and I'm like, this is
just overwhelming. I can't do this right now because all
I have is the death on my mind.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
And boyfriend was not the first person in your life
to commit suicide.
Speaker 12 (23:03):
No, When I was in seventh grade, my mom committed suicide.
So it kind of even made it worse because I
started feeling like, oh my god, what am I doing
to people? Why is everyone around me dying? And I
got into a pretty bad depression and a lot of anxiety.
(23:23):
It was in and out of the hospital, having panic attacks.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
It was hard.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
We might never know how much of this Kimberly shared
with the A ANDTM psychologist, because tragically, Kim took her
own life in twenty sixteen. We don't know if her
participation in the show contributed to her mental health decline,
but we do know the pressure of being on A
ANDTM was too much for her to handle. That's why
(23:50):
she walked off the set herself. But if the show
conducted thorough psyche vows, how did someone like Kim slip
through the cracks? Unfortunately, Kimberly's story is just one of
the A and TM tragedies that raises questions here's a
conversation Jay Manuel had on his YouTube live with drag
Queen Raja, who you may know from RuPaul's Drag Race.
(24:13):
Raja was also a makeup artist on A and TM.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
There's an elephant in the room to this season that
I find a little bit like maybe there was a
curse to it, because we gotta talk about JL and Renee.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
The season they're referring to is cycle eight. That season
had two contestants who faced tough times after the show.
Speaker 9 (24:35):
J L.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Strauss was one of them. JL was the wild child
of her season. She was fun though, like if you
went out with her, you would have the time of
your life, but you might end the night running from
the police. But sometimes her behavior on A and TM
seemed a bit erratic. There was an episode on cycle
(24:56):
eight where the models were being judged on how well
they interacted with celebrities at a party. Fifty Cent was
there and what started out is a seemingly flirty interaction
ended with him pushing her into a pool. Right now, Yeah,
I know, I'm mad.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Dale deserved it because she didn't leave that man alone.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Jayo was being annoying, but pushing her into a pool
took it too far. I swear fifty cent's always been
an asshole. Here's Jasline, the winner of cycle eight, talking
to Oliver Twist. She's recalling Jail's behavior on their season.
Speaker 9 (25:38):
Jayo was a rock star on our season. She's like
reality TV star Gold Gold. But when you think about
some of these personalities now in retrospect, how and why
they were developed that way, there was actually something already
(25:59):
being rooted from her background that was causing her to
kind of outburst the way she would on the show.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, Jaslene seems to be skating around something. We all
saw Jayl's behavior was off. We don't know if JL
had substance abuse issues at the time, and I have
to say there's no evidence that she did, but she
did have friends who were struggling with addiction. We saw
(26:29):
her getting news of a friend's overdose death during her season.
Speaker 6 (26:33):
Jaylle checked her messages and found out that a close
friend of hers had passed away.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Hello, what's going on? She overdose?
Speaker 6 (26:45):
Oh no, okay, I'm gonna call you back because I'm
gonna go because I'm gonna freaking okay.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
After being eliminated from Cycle eight, Jall developed an addiction
to meth and other drugs. In twenty twelve, her family
reached out to the Doctor Phil Show to try to
get her help. When she appeared on the show, she
looked nothing like the beautiful, vibrant model we met on
A and TM a few years before. She was gone
and her skin was blatchy, her teeth had started to write.
(27:20):
She looked way older than twenty nine.
Speaker 13 (27:22):
You're doing drugs, you're living in crappy hotels, you're stripping
in some sleeves ball joint.
Speaker 6 (27:28):
Everyone didn't know all that.
Speaker 13 (27:30):
Oh I didn't.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Where is it everybody's business?
Speaker 13 (27:33):
I didn't bring it up until you lied. If you
had just said yes, then we would have gone on
and talked about something else. Look, I get it, but
you've had a crappy deal all along. What happened to
you when you were ten years old?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Oh my god, I'm talking about that.
Speaker 13 (27:49):
You don't have to talk about it. You know what
I'm talking about, right? And you reached out for help, right?
And did they believe you? No, they didn't believe you.
This isn't just that's your problem. This is a family problem.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Doctor Phil seemed to be alluding to something bad that
happened to jl when she was a kid. I don't
know if she shared that with the A and TM psychologist.
Jelle later said she felt exploited by the Doctor Phil
show and from the tape it sounds like he was
more interested in putting her on blast than actually helping her.
But Jlle eventually got clean. She got a job as
(28:25):
an addiction counselor and remained clean for five years before
tragically passing of breast cancer in twenty eighteen. Other Top
Model contestants, including Carrie D English the Cycle seven winner,
have shared their opinions about Jale's time on ANTM. Carrie
D told Gawker she didn't think A and TM producers
did enough to vet Jail, especially given the stress of
(28:48):
being on the show and the struggles the model's face.
After Carrie D added that quote, all they saw was
a personality good for television. The psyche vow was supposed
to be a guardrail to make sure nothing violent happened
on set, to try to minimize the things the show
could be held liable for or that could harm the production,
(29:11):
But there was a glaring blind spot. It wasn't concerned
with how the show itself might affect contestants' mental health
in the long run. After contestants were sent home, they
told me no one from A ANDTM ever checked in
on them or their mental well being. They thought being
on the show would be their ticket into the modeling industry,
but as we know, many former contestants experienced rejection after rejection,
(29:36):
in part because of how the show betrayed them after
the break. The story of one model who says being
on ANTM sent her into a downwards spiral towards drugs
and crime. Renee Alway made it to the final three
(30:00):
Cycle eight. She did well in the competition, but she
was the season's villain. She had beefs with a few models.
One of them almost came to blows. It got so
bad Tyra came to the house to do an intervention
where Renee was the subject. Tyra sat Renee down beside
her and had each girl go around and say how
(30:20):
Renee had wronged them. You've been negative to everybody so
many times. It's like, how am I going to believe you?
Speaker 10 (30:26):
At the casting wig, You're not say very good things.
Speaker 9 (30:30):
I feel like she has more issues in side that
she has to deal with, because I think that's just.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
All the front.
Speaker 6 (30:35):
She makes a lot of valid points, but she says
that there is stuff going on internally with you.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
When you talk, you had a tendency to talk down
to somebody.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Renee was defensive at first, but after hearing how the
girls felt about her, she showed some vulnerability.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
This is your chance to address all of these girls
right now today. I'm sorry for anything I might said took,
hurt or offend you guys. It's a defense might for myself.
I've been hurt by anybody that I've ever loved besides
my husband and my son has hurt me.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So from that episode on, Renee tried to change her
attitude and she made it to the final three on
that season one thing A and TM Loved a redemption arc.
After she left the show, Renee did the top model
spin off, Modelville, a competition reality show that aired as
a recurring segment on Tyra's talk show. Here's Renee talking
(31:27):
with another contestant, Bianca Golden, about how hard it was
to get modeling jobs after A and TM. It's very
rare for black models to work right now. Yeah, because
it's really hard for me to find work too. And
I'm like, as white.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
As they come.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And here's Renee on Modelville talking about being abused as
a child.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
I went through some horrible things when I was growing up,
and it made me very angry and bitter and just
I don't know how to explain it, Like I just
get angry with people, you know, Like that was my mentality.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
And I was extremely abused when I was growing up.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
And it wasn't just physical, it was mental, emotional, it
was everything.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
So Renee came in second place on Modelville in third
place on ANTM. She did well on both shows, but
that still didn't help her once she got into the
real world. After Modelville, Renee's life took a turn for
the worse. She was a mother, out of work and
desperate to make it as a model. She said she'd
(32:31):
use drugs before A and TM, but this time her
habit got out of control. She developed an addiction to
heroin that led to homelessness and a life of crime.
In twenty thirteen, she was arrested on felony burglary charges
and sentenced to twelve years in prison. She got out
early in twenty eighteen. We couldn't get Renee to do
(32:55):
an interview for this podcast. So I went back to
an interview she did with an ABC afe. It was
taped while Renee was in prison.
Speaker 6 (33:05):
I got into the world and I went I went, okay,
like here I am, you know, ready to do this,
and it was just closed door after closed door after
closed door. That was really hard to take. That was
really hard to take. I felt like a failure because
I couldn't get past the reality TV stigma that had
been put on me.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
It's striking that when Renee was given the opportunity to
speak out after her arrest, she pointed back to A
and TM, saying the show set her up for failure.
Speaker 6 (33:35):
I mean, let's just take a look at I mean
just for America's next top bottle, and let's not look
at any other reality TV competition. How many of those
girls do you see working today?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Very few, even the winners.
Speaker 6 (33:48):
Most of the winners are just on doing their regular
life or barely making it in the industry. It's almost
like a set up for failure. Once you're done with
reality TV, they don't look back at you. There's no
like check on you and see how you're doing.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
It's just over.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
It's done, and it's kind of all this build up
for just a very big letdown.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Like most of the models I've spoken with, Renee never
heard from anyone from the show after she left.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
I can honestly tell you that I did not get
a single phone call from Tyra, from anybody checking up
until they wanted me to do Modelville, and then after
that that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
That was it.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
I mean, once you're out the door, you're out the door,
and they look on to the next which you can't
hardly blame them, because that's their job. Their job is
to keep moving forward and bringing new entertainment to the masses,
and you know, that's what America wants. I can honestly
say that there was never any outreach at all done
after the show. I mean after the elimination, while we
(34:55):
were still there, still filming, a therapist got on the phone,
and you talked to a therapist for about five ten minutes,
and that was the gist of it, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Renee says she doesn't blame A and TM for the
choices she made in the part you didn't hear of
that interview. She takes accountability for her actions. She acknowledges
that lots of models are disappointed with their careers. After
A and TM and they don't turn to drugs or crime.
I understand America's Next Top Model isn't a mentorship program,
(35:27):
no matter how much Tyra tried to sell us the
Big Sister Act. Technically, the show doesn't have any responsibility
to the models after they leave, and realistically not everyone
was going to have a big modeling career. But at
the very least, they could have done something to make
sure the models were prepared to handle the potential let down,
(35:47):
especially the girls who seem like they would take it
the hardest. Offering additional mental health resources to contestants after
a show rap isn't unheard of. In fact, doctor Stephenstein
says something he offers on the shows he works on,
and he's been doing it for decades.
Speaker 11 (36:04):
Generally, what I like to do, and many shows do,
is we give them up to three sessions of therapy
once they have completed the show. So usually I meet
with them all when they're eliminated, see how they're doing.
If we get the sense that somebody needs more help,
I'll refer to someone in their hometown. I'll find a
therapist for them and or choice of three therapists, and
(36:26):
they can continue for two or three sessions or on
their own more than that. Again, it depends on the
show what they're willing to fund.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
From what I've heard, this isn't how it went down
on A and TOM. Even contestants I've spoken to who
shared serious trauma histories or suicidal ideation in their casting
say they received very little follow up from the show psychologists,
And I should point out here that wasn't necessarily the
(36:55):
psychologist's decision. Like doctor Stein said, the level of post
show psychological care all came down to the budget, and
that's a decision made at the very top. Certainly, after
the success of its first few seasons, you'd think A
and TM could have allocated more money for mental health resources,
but they didn't. After she was eliminated, Renee always said
(37:20):
she talked to a therapist for ten minutes on the phone.
Other models I've talked to said something similar. Renee may
be an extreme example of someone who couldn't handle the
reality of life after reality TV, but I know she's
not the only A and TM model who felt disappointed
(37:40):
and depressed after leaving the show. Brittany Brower from Cycle
four is one of the many models I talked to
who felt that way.
Speaker 14 (37:49):
You're on this high from Top Model, and then that
starts to slow down. That's when the depression stage came
and God takes a toll on everything.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Immediately after the show, Brittany was riding the wave of
opportunities that came with her fifteen minutes of fame, but
as that time passed, people forgot about Brittany.
Speaker 14 (38:10):
The next cycle comes up, then another cycle comes up.
It just took me a long time to bounce back
from that. I had to like figure out who I
was really again after Top Models and figure out how
to truly be me, like the strong version of me
again and not be so like let down.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Contestants were told the Psyche Valve measured their mental fitness,
but beyond what they could be held accountable for. A
and TM didn't seem to care much about the contestants
long term well being. That may be well within their rights,
but morally it raises questions. After talking to doctor Stein,
(38:50):
I'm realizing A and TM was a particularly brazen offender
in the world of reality TV. For twenty four seasons,
it picked apart women's traumas and bodies to entertain us,
and afterwards the show didn't even check on them. It
didn't offer resources, which is the least they could do.
(39:11):
That's what other shows are doing at the time, and
it didn't seem to learn or change its process as
the rest of the industry took more accountability for their
contestants well being. Then there's a matter of how they
conducted the psyche vale and how they used them. If
they were about safety, why would they cast contestants they
ruled out as angry or troubled and bring them back
(39:32):
to have confrontations on the show. Why would they cast
contestants who'd shown signs of substance abuse. Why would they
cast contestants who shared their history with suicidal ideation. Why
would they cast a contestant who experienced the suicide of
two loved ones, one of which had just happened. I
think it's because they needed them. They needed people with
(39:56):
traumatic backgrounds, behavioral issues, substance use disorders, and personality disorders,
people who were likely to act out on camera. They
needed these people to entertain us. So in a way,
maybe the psyche vow worked exactly as producers intended, as
a way to find the people they thought they needed
(40:19):
to make a good reality show, which is exactly what
they did. One last thing before we go, we reached
out to the executive producer of A and TM, Ken Mock,
so that he could provide more perspective on the psyche
vowels and what we've discussed in this episode, but we
(40:40):
did not hear from him before airing this episode. On
the next episode, we'll explore how A and TM prioritized
making the best reality TV, not the best models.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
And I get a tap on the back of my
shoulder from Ken Mark say stop it.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
We want to see these girls cry.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
This is gonna make great television.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
And I'll just go back and I'm right, yeah, Ka,
it is Curtifued. A lot of those girls didn't get
looked at as people.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
They were products.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
If they were boring, they got cut. Thanks for listening
to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. We really
appreciate the support. We'd love for you to really show
your support by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts
and don't forget to leave us a five star rating
and review. If you love the show, tell your group, chat,
(41:31):
your co workers, your friends, your mama to check us out.
And if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself.
Thanks again to all of our listeners. The Curse of
America's Next Top Model. It's a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
(41:52):
senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andre Dunning.
Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcurriy, and Curry Richmond.
Consulting producers are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing and
(42:14):
mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vechio. The Curse
of America's Next Top Model theme music was composed by
Oliver Bains. Music library provided by mid Music special Thanks
to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the models
for sharing their stories. And for more podcasts from iHeart,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(42:37):
your podcasts. Also check out the Glass podcast Instagram at
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