October 7, 2025 • 40 mins
CONTENT WARNING: This episode mentions sexual assault, suicide, and suicidal ideation.
Before you could be cast on America’s Next Top Model, you had to pass a psychological evaluation. Contestants were told these psych evals were about keeping them safe. But whose safety was ANTM really worried about? In this episode, we explain how the ANTM psych eval worked and where it failed.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's two thousand and six and a teenager named Jaslene
Gonzalez just sent in her audition tape to be on
America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I should be America's TIMA because I devoted myself to
this every day.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
It is like a fashion opportunity.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I caught up with Jaslene earlier this year. These days,
she's a preschool teacher and she has the soft spoken
demeanor to match. But back in two thousand and six,
being on A and TM was her dream.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I come from a Puerto Rican culture, and in Chicago,
no one was telling skinny, so I was just like
the model of the town.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
But there weren't too many high fashion runways in her
neighborhood in Chicago, so she got exposure elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
From a very young age, I grew up on the stage.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I was singing, a dancer, but then naturally I progressed
into becoming a model. I started competing in pageants, and
I also started doing hair shows for this Latino woman
who owned the hair salon, and I started to realize
we would win every competition, that I would grace the runway.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
On people at school and in her neighborhood. Also started
to realize there was something special about Jasleen. Remember this
was also in an era where if you were a tall,
pretty girl, people would tell.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
You you should be on America's Next Top Model. You
show audition for America's Next Top Model. That's all I
ever heard about.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
So she did. Jesslene got her dad to rent a
car and she drove six hours from Chicago to the
nearest audition in Cleveland. And when she got there, oh,
Jaslen was ready.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I remember my first opportunity to be exposed to the camera.
I had to step out when they called my name,
save my name, my height, and where I'm from. So
I was preparing myself mentally, this is going to be
the time to shine. I said my name, my heights,
and where I'm from, like the most Choschhaw diva ever.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
When Jesslene started telling me about her semifinals audition, her
preschool teacher persona melted away. She was filled with the
energy I remember from A ANDTM. I could see the
energy that got her into the semifinals.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
The next day, I had to stay at a hotel
and that was where the casting director was actually present,
which was Michelle Mack, and she had a camera in
front of her and she had asked each and every girl,
when you come up to me, consider this camera Tyra Banks,
and you gotta tell Tyra Banks why you want to
(02:34):
be on America's Next Top Model. So the girls were
all coming up and they were all giving a sobbing story.
I mean I'm talking about every girl was crying, she
had issues, she had this. So I'm in my mind
(02:54):
like no, no, no, no no. I finally get off
and I started telling the show and the camera that
I should be America's next to Myra because I got
the moves, I got the attitude, I can oh say
this and that, And I was so energetic, like I
had lifted something up in that room that I promise
(03:16):
you God is my witness. Every girl after started talking
like me.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Jesleen's performance landed her in front of the Queen and
her trusted advisors.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Hi, my name is Chathleen. I am nineteen years old.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Did you learn all that in Catholic school?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
That come to tray so many different lines?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Give me some looks.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
What looks can you portray? I can give you next
twenty one?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Next, what else? Jessleen nailed her audition in front of
Tyra and the Jays. But once she left that room,
she had another very important room to go into. Here's
longtime ANTM creative director and judge j Manuel explaining what
happened to the wannabe contestants after they left the judging panel.
Speaker 6 (03:58):
The girls coming to meet with Miss j Tyro and myself,
but they go out of our room and they literally
go into three other rooms where three independent psychologists they
get an evaluation.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Jay Manuel is talking about the psychological evaluation. Everyone to
be contestant had to go through a series of tests
and conversations with the psychologists to determine if they were
mentally fit enough to be on the show.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Had a red, an orange, and a green, and so
the green was obviously totally mentally capable to be on
the show, and then Orange and then Red were not
allowed to be on the show.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Jaslene, like all the other contestants, answered a series of questions.
They were asked about their background, their relationships, their struggles.
After Jaslene met with the show psychologists, she and all
the other finalists were gathered to hear Tyra make her
final selections. This was the last cut to see who
would officially be joining the cast of A and TM.
(04:54):
Cycle seven.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
The last girl that will join twelve Lucky Ladies over Here.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Is Jaslene. Waited and waited and waited. Its other names
were called were Jaslene didn't make the cut.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
She counted down the girls that were going to go
into the house, and I was not in that pool.
I'm giving up.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
We shouldn't give up.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I was very upset and kind of dumbfounded by those results.
I thought I was going to make it into the house.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
When Jaslene got cut, she was so distraught she couldn't
even bring herself to do her exit interview.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
They eventually had to bring a producer to me to
sit me down and tell me the reason why I
didn't get picked.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
The producer told her it wasn't her runway walk that
got her cut. It wasn't about her not looking good
in photo. It wasn't that she didn't have that it factor.
She did. Jaslene was cut because of something she told
the show psychologist. Want to beyond Some, Want to beyond Some.
(06:23):
Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Bridget Armstrong. Every A ANDTM hopeful had to undergo a
psychological evaluation before being cast on the show. For many
it was just a long, tedious bump on the way
to their dream, But for Jazzlene Gonzales, it was the
thing that got her sent home. Here's what she shared
(06:45):
with A ANDTM psychologists.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I was very open and explicit about my relationship with
my boyfriend at the time. I spoke about the highs
and lows that I was going through.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
But to the psychologists, it sounded like more than highs
and lows. It sounded like Jaslene was in danger.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
The therapist had overruled Tyra Banks's decision to put me
into the house because I was in an abusive relationship.
That was the first time I had ever heard that
I was in a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Jaslene told the psychologist that her boyfriend was controlling and jealous.
He would accuse her of cheating and go through her phone,
and sometimes the abuse turned physical. But rather than putting
her in the house and making her abusive relationship a storyline,
or just sending her home with no explanation at all,
Jaslene says A and TM producers made a deal with her.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
They were like, you know, if you get out of
that relationship, if you could help, we would guarantee your
spot back into the house, and so I underwent six
months of therapy to understand what domestic violence is, how
to get out of it, built some confidence in so
(08:05):
once I came back, I auditioned.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And the rest is history.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yes, Jessie, I didn't make it the first time, but
now look at me.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I'm America's next Top Model. I'm a covered and I
think that shows.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
To all young women, if you have that drive, keep going.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Jessie made it into the house on cycle eight and
won the whole thing. She told me A and TM
wasn't just a show she won or her ticket into
the modeling industry. It was a lifeline.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I didn't see those bad patterns, bad behavior as an
abusers profile, so I would have seen my ex boyfriend
as someone just normal treating me normal.
Speaker 7 (08:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
So there was this new awareness that now I can't
we even throughout my life. To this day, I feel
like being on America's Next Top Model actually saved my life.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Jaslene's experience with the A and TM psyche vow is
an example of how it worked at its best, but
Jazzleene's story is rare for a lot of contestants. It
was just an annoying thing they had to do to
get on the show. But there are some who say
this psyche vowel was the beginning of their A and
(09:28):
TM trauma, and others who say it was biased and flawed.
When we started looking into the psyche vow we thought
we were just exploring a little known aspect of A
andtm's casting process. We thought we would do one episode
about how it worked and how it was used on
the show. But when we scratched beneath the surface, we
figured out there was a lot more to this story.
(09:51):
Contestants say the personal trauma they shared in their psyche
vowels was later used to produce the show, and we
found contestants who may have slipped through the cracks, people
who's casting raises serious questions, and some of those contestants
later met tragic ends. To understand the darker side of
(10:13):
ANTM psychological evaluation, you first have to understand what it is,
how it works, and the ways it fell short. So
on part one of this two part episode, that's what
we're going to break down. Being on reality TV can
be stressful. The days are long, and you have a
camera in your face from the moment you wake up
(10:33):
at six AM to the moment you go to sleep
at one am. You're completely isolated from your friend's family
and often the outside world. You're put in bizarre situations
you probably wouldn't otherwise encounter in your real life. It's
relentless and in the back of your mind you know
any little thing you do will be watched and judged
(10:54):
by millions of people. It's enough to fuck with anybody's
mental health. That's why psyche vows are are pretty standard
practice in reality TV casting. From what I understand, A
and TM psyche vile involved a written test portion and
an actual conversation with the psychologist. Here's Psycle twenty four
contestant Gina Turner.
Speaker 8 (11:13):
I'm from Minnesota, so I do remember that our psyche
valuations were conducted and put together by the University of Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Gina's referring to the Minnesota Multi Phasic Personality Inventory, or
the MMPI. It's one of the most widely used psychological
tests in the world. Based on what I've heard, the
version the models took was probably the MMPI two. It's
a huge test containing over five hundred true false questions
(11:40):
where the statements are designed to feel random, even repetitive
at times, so the person taking it can't easily predict
what the test is measuring. Here are a few real
questions from the test. You select true or false. Number one,
I like mechanics magazines. Number two anyone at times, I
(12:01):
have very much wanted to leave home. Number one forty four,
I believe I am being followed. Number five forty I
have gotten angry and broken furniture or dishes when I
was drinking. And my personal favorite, Number one ninety one,
I would like to be a journalist. The test has
(12:23):
a lot of uses. It can screen for things like depression,
personality disorders, or emotional distress. We don't know what A
and TM psychologists were really screening for, who they were
trying to keep out, and who they were trying to find,
but we do know that the MMPI is usually just
a starting place. The answers alone don't tell you much
(12:44):
about a person. What really matters is the context. That's
why I follow up with the mental health professional. It's
critical in the follow up a person can explain the
answers and how they relate to their own behaviors. The
follow up discussion shapes how the test is interpreted, but
the MMPI seems to be just one of the tests
A and TM used. It sounds like the models were
(13:07):
also given scenario based tests with multiple choice answers. You
met Lisa Demado last episode. She was first on cycle
five and was later given that controversial win on cycle seventeen.
Here's what she said about A ANDTM scenario based test.
Speaker 9 (13:23):
Some of the questions involve scenarios like this, if a
group of people are bowling one person.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
What do you do?
Speaker 9 (13:33):
It's multiple choice, but it'd be like, I stand up
for that person, it's none of my business, you know?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Or this or that.
Speaker 9 (13:40):
It shows the way that you would actually react to
any given type of situation.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
The psyche valve seemed to be a big part of
the casting process. The model spent hours taking tests and
having conversations with psychologists, and they were told it was
for their safety.
Speaker 9 (13:58):
When you first go on America Next Top Model or
you're getting cast for it, they preface you going to
see a psychologist to make sure that you are prepared mentally,
that you aren't gonna be a danger to yourself or
to anybody else on the show, because you're gonna be
put under insane stress because you're basically taken out of
(14:23):
your life that you're used to and you're kind of,
you know, stuck in this whole Truman Show experience where
you're cut off from anything you know and love, and
then also because you're gonna then be put on television,
it's to evaluate to make sure that this is safe
for everyone and yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Here's Britney Brower from cycle four.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
I just remember the psych evaluation, or my understanding of it,
was basically to make sure we were like mentally able
to go with like extreme like I don't want to
say mind games, but we're gonna be put through a lot.
Can you handle it? And that's kind of how we
are told, like we need to know that you're not
going to break down get suicidal. They've got to make
(15:02):
sure you're not suicidal. And it would just keep asking
the same questions in different ways over and over and
over again. I'm like, oh my gosh, no, I'm not
going to kill myself.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Oh my god.
Speaker 10 (15:14):
No I'm not going to harm anybody else, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Hannahcat Jones was on a later season, cycle sixteen. She
remembers being told about past contestants who weren't cut out
for the rigors of reality TV.
Speaker 11 (15:25):
I was under the impression that the psych evaluation was
to make sure that we were mentally stable for the show.
They were like, you are going to experience a lot
of pressure, and girls in the past have not been
able to handle that, so we have to make sure
that you're mentally strong enough to go through with what
(15:46):
production will ask of you.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
The contestants were told the psyche vow was about their safety.
A ANDTM wanted to make sure potential contestants wouldn't harm
themselves or others while on an A ANDTM set. But
as we explore Top Model psyche vowel process, I want
you to ask yourself, what does safety really mean? And
who's safety were they really worried about? Those are the
(16:10):
questions my production team thought about a lot. It's clear
A ANDTM was worried about the contestants' physical safety and
maybe their own. I'm sure they didn't want anyone to
haul off in Smack Tyra, and I'm sure they didn't
want to get hit with a wrongful death lawsuit. But
I do wonder if they were really concerned about the
model's mental and emotional well being. I wanted to know
(16:33):
more about how A andtm' psyche vowel process worked, so
I reached out to one of A and TM's longtime psychologists,
doctor Suzanne Zachary. She told me A ANDTM was an
interesting show to work on, but because of her contract,
she couldn't do an interview for this podcast. So I
reached out to someone else who knows all about psyche
vows and reality TV. He's as og as you can get.
(16:59):
Twenty five year years ago, psychologist doctor Stephen Stein developed
one of the first tests that measured emotional intelligence. Around
nineteen ninety nine, he got a call from a guy
who knew about this test, who knew a guy who
was developing a new TV.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Show, and he was looking for a psychologist because he
was going to do some TV show, and he asked
me if this emotional intelligence might be helpful. I didn't know, really,
but I said, well, we can find out what's the
show about. And he said, well, they're going to put
these people on an island and then vote out one
each week, and that would be the nature of the show.
I said, wow, who's going to watch that?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
That show, of course, turned out to be Survivor and
they used doctor Stein's adapted emotional intelligence tests to cast
the first season. Since then, doctor Stein has worked on
dozens and dozens of reality shows, including franchises of Big Brother,
The Amazing Race, and The Bachelor. Doctor Stein confirmed that
when he's working on a show, his first priority is
(17:56):
to make sure the contestant is a safe choice.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
We want to make sure that we have no significant
psychotic episodes bipolar, or they're not have some substance abuse,
or they're not very aggressive and have problems with anger.
So there' as certain things that we rule out borderline personality.
We want to make sure that it's going to be
a safe environment, both for them and the other cast members.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I asked doctor Stein about the MMPI two, the psychological
test the models were given, and about how it's used
in reality TV casting. Doctor Stein uses the same test
when he's conducting psyche valves.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
It's the most widely used mental health test in psychology.
It's used almost everywhere hospitals and clinics and all that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
But doctor Stein doesn't only use the MMPI for safety.
He also has a say in casting, so he looks
for certain personality types and emotional traits that could make
great TV. Some of the.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Questions we asked look at things like your ability to
identify your own emotions, how you're feeling. Some people will
have no idea how they're feelings. Some people are really
tuned into their own feelings. We look at how do
you express yourself?
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Think about the talking hit confessionals we see on a
lot of reality TV shows. Cast members need to be
able to talk about their feelings, doctor Stein. It's also
interested in how well a person plays with others, your.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Ability to make good relationships with others, your interpersonal skills,
your ability to make good decisions. Do you get over
emotional and make bad decisions or are you cool, calm
and collect. And finally, your ability to manage stress, which
is a big thing in reality shows. You got to
sometimes go through long periods of time stressful situations, so
(19:40):
we want to see how well you are at managing
the stress in your life.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
But there is one trait, he says, almost all reality
stars have across the board.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
If you're going to be on a reality show, chances
are about ninety percent you're going to score high on
a narcissism scale. Narcissists want to be on TV. Also,
the narcissists tend to perform right. They want the attention,
So when they're on a show, they take up all
the light, and you know, production likes that. They like
people who are in the limelight and do funny things
(20:10):
and so on.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Doctor Stein also told me that what he looks for
isn't universal. What works for one reality show might not
work for another.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
So some shows, you know, we like to call them
a social experiment. Think of The Big Brother and shows
like that, where you put people in a house or
in a situation and there what's important is your ability
to kind of use your interpersonal skills and maybe even
be a bit manipulative of your ability to manipulate other people.
Other shows, maybe cooking shows, you may be looking for
a different set of skills. You may be looking for
(20:42):
how they deal under stress because they have a very
brief time to cook or bake or whatever they're about
to do in the competition.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
In the case of A and TM, it's more like
how well can you pose with a tiger? There are
a lot of ways tests like this can be useful,
but it's not a perfect system. It's flawed because well
it's written and administered by people, and people are biased.
Speaker 12 (21:06):
When you come from a different culture, people who don't
come from that culture may take how you say things
is being angry or aggressive.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
We'll get into that after the break. We explained how
psyche vowels and reality TV work. They're designed to weed
out people who might be dangerous to themselves and others,
and one indication that a person could be dangerous or
(21:39):
violent is anger. You met Angelie preston last episode. She
was the one who got her win on All Stars revoked.
On her first appearance on ANTM, she was sent home.
During the Cycle twelve audition process. She got into it
with another semi finalist named Sandra. Here's tape of their argument.
(21:59):
You and I problem.
Speaker 12 (22:01):
Because I can Soandra looked at me, she now you
want to roll your eyes like you know, like, don't
get me started long Now you don't have any class.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I have no time.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
The two models called each other names, and Angelie gave
her the good old talk to the hand. But by
today's standards, it's all pretty tame. It certainly doesn't make
Angelie seem volatile or mentally unstable, but it still got
her cut.
Speaker 12 (22:34):
The casting director was like this, is not the end.
We just want you to take anger management classes because
we just want you to get you know your anger
and check. And I don't think I was necessarily angry.
I think what it was is the way I expressed myself.
When you come from a different culture and you're interacting
(22:56):
with people who don't come from that culture, they may
take how you say things is being angry or aggressive.
And I guess there were concerns that I was possibly
going to hit someone in the house.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Angelie says there was even an opportunity to get into
a physical altercation with her op when her rival's name
got called to join the cast. That girl intentionally shoulder
checked Angelie.
Speaker 12 (23:22):
She bumped me going over to Tyra, and like everybody
thought I was gonna hit her and I didn't.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
So I think it was like the.
Speaker 12 (23:33):
Psychiatrist was telling them based on the little test that
we take, oh she's violent or blah blah blah, but
you're not seeing that when this girl bumped me, because
I could have went after her, but I didn't because
you know, I'll be talking, I'll be I'll be rah rah,
but I'm really a softie, Like I'm not gonna with
hit nobody.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Angelie took A and TM's advice and went to anger
management classes. She had to pay for it herself. When
she came back for cycle fourteen, she was cast on
the show. But Angelie wasn't the only contestant who was
told to go to anger management before making it into
the A and TM House. Tiffany, We were rooting for you.
Richardson originally auditioned for cycle three. She made it to
(24:17):
the semi finals and on the first episode got into
a good old fashioned bar fight when some random woman
poured a drink on her during a dance battle.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Bitch for beer on my Wii. So I'm thinking, on't
fight do it?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
You know?
Speaker 13 (24:30):
Everything was I had the evil twin and the good.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
One, so as we all know the evil one one.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
As soon as I turn around, I hear classes breaking all. No,
she did not unbelievable just my opinion, but I always
thought that fight looked stage like the producers had an
idea of how Tiffany might react and set her up
to have some drama on the first episode. Tiffany was
(25:01):
sent home during the cycle three semifinals. She talked about
this with Oliver TwixT in twenty twenty two. He's a
content creator and top model super fan. During the pandemic,
he started interviewing dozens of antim models on his personal channels,
and Oliver is a consulting producer on this podcast. Here's
what Tiffany told him. I didn't pass the mental test
(25:21):
the first time.
Speaker 13 (25:23):
The questions that was asking was so weird, like if
the police pull you over and you got such such
witty is you gonna tell the truth or is you
gonna stag it? And so they put all these questions
and then if you don't answer them correctly, they make
you think you crazy. So I felt like I shouldn't
even told the truth because I thought by telling the
truth they would appreciate me more.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
But I didn't get picked.
Speaker 13 (25:44):
Before I left, producers whispered to me and they were
saying things about the anger management and different stuff like that.
So I already kind of had it in my brain
that I was going back to the fourth and they
say you go get your anger management.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Well, welcome to full cycle. Let me say this. We
don't know if any the other contestants were sent to
anger management based on the psyche vows. These are just
the women who've spoken publicly about their experience. We also
don't know about the models who were flagged and didn't
get a second chance. It's clear Tyra and the producers
(26:15):
wanted Tiffany and Angelie on the show, and rightfully so.
They gave us some of A and TM's most memorable moments.
But before they got there, A and TM told them
to get anger management. Now here's the thing about anger.
It's subjective. Everyone gets angry, but not everyone's anger is
deemed violent or dangerous. The elephant in the room here
(26:38):
is that Angelie and Tiffany are both black, and they
were the ones who were told to get anger management
before they got cast on the show, which is ironic
for a show that gave a lot of airtime to
contestants angry outbursts. Remember a Lease from cycle one, whose
rant you heard on episode two she called Giselle a
worthless cunt whose parents should be a ashamed of her.
(27:01):
And Jennifer Frost from cycle three, who pushed another contestant
on camera.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
I don't know the other way. Don't ever touch me again,
or else you will get knocked out. Oh, I'd like
to see it, god.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
And what about Lauren Utter from cycle ten? Who stood
on a chair and screamed at another contestant during an argument.
On a later episode, she told another contestant she helps
they choke on their coffee.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Here's your call coffee, a big lady.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You are not even what they choke on it. Or
the conflict between Romeo and Adam on cycle twenty one,
I don't understand that.
Speaker 7 (27:38):
Guys, there's zero percent chance I punched you right now,
So I don't know if you're if it's like, so.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Punch me, it's punched me, so punched me, So punch me,
so punch punch me. I'm not gonna punch you.
Speaker 8 (27:48):
Because it said.
Speaker 12 (27:48):
Automat punch me.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Romeo head budded Adam.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Romeo's crazy. He's a little cannon. You head butted to somebody.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
That sounds pretty angry to me. And there are other examsamples,
But as far as we know, whatever those contestants told
psychologists wasn't enough to get them flagged as too angry
to be on the show, and that raises concerns about
the psychologists who are evaluating the candidates. There's research that
shows that at least two thirds of healthcare providers, including
(28:19):
mental health professionals, demonstrate implicit bias against marginalized groups. Not
only that, the MMPI two the tests the models were given,
has been widely criticized for being biased when it was
originally developed in the forties. The control group they based
the test on was made up of mostly young, white,
(28:39):
married people from Minnesota. Even after revisions, researchers have found
that black test takers often score higher on certain scales
like paranoia, not necessarily because of mental illness, but because
of the effect of lived realities like racism and discrimination.
We don't know for sure it's bias played a role
(29:01):
in Tiffany and Angelie being sent to anger Management. Whatever
the reason, the A and TM psychologists thought Tiffany and
Angelie didn't have the temperament for the competition, but they
weren't told to seek therapy to talk about the underlying
issues that could be making them angry. A and TM
advised them to go to anger management, which is a
(29:21):
glorified band aid for deeper problems, and that band aid
seemed to work well enough for A and TM. The
next time Angelie pressed an audition, she knew exactly what
the psychologists wanted to hear.
Speaker 12 (29:35):
I was lying on the psychic vow, like I can't
let these motherfuckers they come crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
After the break, we get into the other blind spot
of the psyche vow. After talking to Angelie Preston myself,
I don't think she was by I don't even think
she's angry. I think she was confrontational. After Angelie went
(30:07):
to Anger Management, she auditioned for A and TM again,
and this time she knew what to say.
Speaker 12 (30:14):
One of the things the psychiatrists pointed out after I
was eliminated in the first episode was my psych results.
I feel like I was too honest on Psycle twelve.
I feel like I was too honest with the questions.
I was like, Okay, now I know when I'll go
back on again. I got to tighten up. I can't
(30:35):
be as honest because if I'm honest, then that could
possibly hurt my opportunity again.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
So Angelie did what she needed to do to get cast.
I was lying on the.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Psychic valve, like I can't let these motherfuckers they come crazy.
And you know what's funny now that I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
About it, because you meet with the psychiatrist.
Speaker 12 (30:58):
So I remember her saying your answers from the first
time you audition to now are so different, and in
my mom I'm like.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Please, like I knew what to say on this one.
This time, Angelie gave the answers she thought would get
her on the show, but it wasn't necessarily the truth.
Here's what Psychle twenty four is, Gina Turner told me
about her psyche val.
Speaker 8 (31:24):
I'm gonna be completely fucking honest with you. I lied
on my fucking test. It would be like, if Johnny
was running after you with a knife, what would you do.
A Stand there and let him stab you, B run
the opposite direction. Three grab a weapon and defend yourself,
or four commit suicide or like something stupid. Right, my
(31:45):
answer would be, see, I'm gonna grab a weapon and
defend myself. Johnny gotta go.
Speaker 10 (31:49):
But I knew that that's.
Speaker 8 (31:50):
Probably not the way I wanted to be represented. I
didn't really want them to know, like exactly who I
was and how I would respond to every scenario. So,
like some things, I was stressful with the I was like, hmm,
this question seems a little bit like too specific.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I was like, let me go ahead and like monitor
my answer just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
We don't know what a and TM psychologists were really
looking for, but some contestants say they just gave the
answers that they thought would get them past the psyche val.
We don't know if it made a difference or not.
What we know is that they got cast on the show.
I want to tell you about one more case of
a contestant telling A and TM psychologists something that wasn't true.
(32:31):
Remember Jaslene, who you heard from at the top of
this episode. She was red flagged by psychologists because she
was in an abusive relationship. They sent her away, advised
her to go to therapy, and told her to come
back once she left that relationship. A and TM loved
a Cinderella story where a girl with a traumatic background
(32:51):
is transformed by the magic of Tyra Banks. When Jaslene
came back to audition again, she told Tyra and A
and TM producers she left that relationship. It was what
they wanted to hear, but it wasn't true. This is Jazzling.
A year after her win on Tyra's talk show, I
have a confession.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I was with my ex boyfriend for four years.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
He did hit me and you know, went through emotional abuse,
but I ended up going back to him.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
A and TM didn't use her abusive relationship as a storyline,
but Tyra and her production company found a way to
get some mileage out of it in this incredibly cringey
segment of The Tyra Show.
Speaker 7 (33:37):
So after that, we're, you know, off camera, we're talking,
and I'm like, I'm so proud of you. You got
out of that bad relationship. And you're like, yeah, Mama, Tyra,
I got out. So how did you feel being not
truthful with me and knowing that she were still with him?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
It hurted me a lot, actually, like it was. It
was a deep secret. You know, it's gonna be very hard.
I'm sorry. I don't want to their baby cry. No,
it's not a baby cry, Jesseline, that's not a baby cry.
This is real. It's okay.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I respect you so much, and I've ficience so much
you've done from you, Cyril, and I am willing to
stand here and accept my mistake.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
I don't even think it makes you a liar, because
part of abuse is living in this weird world and
almost lying to yourself.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I think you were still in that cycle of hell.
So I forgive you, forget.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
I've watched this clip again and again and it's so
strange that it's framed. Is Jazline apologizing to Tyra? Do
y'all really think Tyra didn't know before this moment when
you went, yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
He did it? I said it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I was destinally one of those where I just stood
back and I was like, no, you know what, like,
it's not gonna happen no more.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So where are you now with him? Are you really
broken up?
Speaker 7 (34:53):
Or are you Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I live in New York.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
I want to be clear, I'm not blaming Jazleene here.
Use is a cycle, and it usually takes survivors multiple
tries to leave for good if they ever do. Jaslene
eventually ended the relationship after her win, and she does
credit the show with helping her leave, But the point
is she told the psychologists what they wanted to hear
(35:17):
and it worked. At the beginning of this episode, we
heard from contestants who were told the psyche vowel was
for their own safety, but how could a process with
these glaring shortcomings really keep them safe? The portion of
the psyche vow that was done in the name of
safety seemed in part to be about covering Antm's own ass.
(35:39):
They didn't want someone who would take their own life
on the show or six months after. They didn't want
someone who would walk off set when production got too intense.
They didn't want someone who might attack a union protected
crew member. Basically, they didn't want someone who would be
a liability to the show. But here's where the psyche
vow gets really interesting. Because they did want people with
(36:02):
traumatic backgrounds, it gave them something to use to create storylines.
Courtney Davies was on Cycle thirteen. She was also in
an abusive relationship before auditioning for A and TM. She
shared this with the show psychologist, and she told Oliver
Twigs that on her first day on set, that's all
the producers wanted to talk to her about.
Speaker 11 (36:24):
Like the very first time I walked out, they were like,
tell us about your abusive relationship.
Speaker 10 (36:30):
I just wanted to be me and not have that
be a part of my story. Like they wanted me
to be the.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Victim and like the damaged girl.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Courtney wouldn't cooperate. She refused to talk about it. But
there were contestants who were blindsided with their trauma on camera,
like Marvita Washington. Marvita originally auditioned for Cycle nine. In
her psyche vow, she shared she was a survivor of
childhood sexual abuse, and the producers clearly shared that with
Tyra so she could bring it up on camera. Here's
(37:03):
mar Vida cycle nine audition. I don't even know why
I'm crying. I don't even cry.
Speaker 7 (37:08):
I hear that you've been through a lot, a lot,
a lot of stuff in your life. Tell me about
growing up and all the things that she went through
and all the tragedy.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
I went through a lot as a kid.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I've been just passed off to family members a lot,
so I was always having to adapt to new people,
new places.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
A lot of people have done a lot of bad
things to me. Why don't you talk about them?
Speaker 1 (37:34):
I was molested right So.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Much has happened to you.
Speaker 7 (37:38):
What makes you strong enough to still stand here right
now in front of us?
Speaker 1 (37:45):
After Tyra asked her these invasive questions, Marvita wasn't selected
for cycle nine. She was told to go to therapy,
which she did. When she came back to audition for
cycle ten, she made it onto the show, where her
childhood abuse was a part of her storyline. Marvita isn't
the only contestant who said the deep personal trauma they
(38:06):
shared in their psyche vow was later used by producers
to manipulate them for the cameras. On the next episode,
we'll get into the hidden use of the psychological evaluation.
Contestants were told the psyche vow was for their safety
and screening purposes, but many say it was used for
a lot more than that.
Speaker 8 (38:28):
But I just remember, for hours and hours on Andy
just kept focusing on me being suicidal, and It's like,
I just want to talk about something happy. I don't
want to talk about growing up in foster care. And
it was just really fucked up. I was exhausted. I
was physically so exhausted, and I remember putting my handsmu
it and I was like, I don't want to talk
about it anymore, and I'm crying. But that is literally
the clip that they used for how I emotionally responded
(38:52):
for losing the competition.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Then we'll talk about the contestants who's casting raises serious
questions about the A and TM psyche contestants whose lives
took a dark turn once the show ended. Thanks for
listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. We
really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to really
show your support by subscribing to our show on Apple
(39:17):
Podcasts and don't forget to leave us a five star
rating and review. If you love the show, tell your group, chat,
your co workers, your friends, your mama to check us out,
and if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself.
Thanks again to all of our listeners. The Curse of
America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
(39:41):
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.
Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcrie, and Curry Richmond.
Consulting producers are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart
(40:02):
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing and
mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vecchio. The Curse
of America's Next Top Model theme music was composed by
Oliver Baines. Music library provided by mid Music Special Thanks
to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the models
for sharing their stories. And for more podcasts from iHeart,
(40:25):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Also check out the Glass Podcast Instagram at
Glass Podcast for Curse of America's Next Top Model, behind
the scenes content, and more
It's two thousand and six and a teenager named Jaslene
Gonzalez just sent in her audition tape to be on
America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I should be America's TIMA because I devoted myself to
this every day.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
It is like a fashion opportunity.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I caught up with Jaslene earlier this year. These days,
she's a preschool teacher and she has the soft spoken
demeanor to match. But back in two thousand and six,
being on A and TM was her dream.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I come from a Puerto Rican culture, and in Chicago,
no one was telling skinny, so I was just like
the model of the town.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
But there weren't too many high fashion runways in her
neighborhood in Chicago, so she got exposure elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
From a very young age, I grew up on the stage.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I was singing, a dancer, but then naturally I progressed
into becoming a model. I started competing in pageants, and
I also started doing hair shows for this Latino woman
who owned the hair salon, and I started to realize
we would win every competition, that I would grace the runway.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
On people at school and in her neighborhood. Also started
to realize there was something special about Jasleen. Remember this
was also in an era where if you were a tall,
pretty girl, people would tell.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
You you should be on America's Next Top Model. You
show audition for America's Next Top Model. That's all I
ever heard about.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
So she did. Jesslene got her dad to rent a
car and she drove six hours from Chicago to the
nearest audition in Cleveland. And when she got there, oh,
Jaslen was ready.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I remember my first opportunity to be exposed to the camera.
I had to step out when they called my name,
save my name, my height, and where I'm from. So
I was preparing myself mentally, this is going to be
the time to shine. I said my name, my heights,
and where I'm from, like the most Choschhaw diva ever.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
When Jesslene started telling me about her semifinals audition, her
preschool teacher persona melted away. She was filled with the
energy I remember from A ANDTM. I could see the
energy that got her into the semifinals.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
The next day, I had to stay at a hotel
and that was where the casting director was actually present,
which was Michelle Mack, and she had a camera in
front of her and she had asked each and every girl,
when you come up to me, consider this camera Tyra Banks,
and you gotta tell Tyra Banks why you want to
(02:34):
be on America's Next Top Model. So the girls were
all coming up and they were all giving a sobbing story.
I mean I'm talking about every girl was crying, she
had issues, she had this. So I'm in my mind
(02:54):
like no, no, no, no no. I finally get off
and I started telling the show and the camera that
I should be America's next to Myra because I got
the moves, I got the attitude, I can oh say
this and that, And I was so energetic, like I
had lifted something up in that room that I promise
(03:16):
you God is my witness. Every girl after started talking
like me.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Jesleen's performance landed her in front of the Queen and
her trusted advisors.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Hi, my name is Chathleen. I am nineteen years old.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Did you learn all that in Catholic school?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
That come to tray so many different lines?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Give me some looks.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
What looks can you portray? I can give you next
twenty one?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Next, what else? Jessleen nailed her audition in front of
Tyra and the Jays. But once she left that room,
she had another very important room to go into. Here's
longtime ANTM creative director and judge j Manuel explaining what
happened to the wannabe contestants after they left the judging panel.
Speaker 6 (03:58):
The girls coming to meet with Miss j Tyro and myself,
but they go out of our room and they literally
go into three other rooms where three independent psychologists they
get an evaluation.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Jay Manuel is talking about the psychological evaluation. Everyone to
be contestant had to go through a series of tests
and conversations with the psychologists to determine if they were
mentally fit enough to be on the show.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Had a red, an orange, and a green, and so
the green was obviously totally mentally capable to be on
the show, and then Orange and then Red were not
allowed to be on the show.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Jaslene, like all the other contestants, answered a series of questions.
They were asked about their background, their relationships, their struggles.
After Jaslene met with the show psychologists, she and all
the other finalists were gathered to hear Tyra make her
final selections. This was the last cut to see who
would officially be joining the cast of A and TM.
(04:54):
Cycle seven.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
The last girl that will join twelve Lucky Ladies over Here.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Is Jaslene. Waited and waited and waited. Its other names
were called were Jaslene didn't make the cut.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
She counted down the girls that were going to go
into the house, and I was not in that pool.
I'm giving up.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
We shouldn't give up.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I was very upset and kind of dumbfounded by those results.
I thought I was going to make it into the house.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
When Jaslene got cut, she was so distraught she couldn't
even bring herself to do her exit interview.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
They eventually had to bring a producer to me to
sit me down and tell me the reason why I
didn't get picked.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
The producer told her it wasn't her runway walk that
got her cut. It wasn't about her not looking good
in photo. It wasn't that she didn't have that it factor.
She did. Jaslene was cut because of something she told
the show psychologist. Want to beyond Some, Want to beyond Some.
(06:23):
Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Bridget Armstrong. Every A ANDTM hopeful had to undergo a
psychological evaluation before being cast on the show. For many
it was just a long, tedious bump on the way
to their dream, But for Jazzlene Gonzales, it was the
thing that got her sent home. Here's what she shared
(06:45):
with A ANDTM psychologists.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I was very open and explicit about my relationship with
my boyfriend at the time. I spoke about the highs
and lows that I was going through.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
But to the psychologists, it sounded like more than highs
and lows. It sounded like Jaslene was in danger.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
The therapist had overruled Tyra Banks's decision to put me
into the house because I was in an abusive relationship.
That was the first time I had ever heard that
I was in a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Jaslene told the psychologist that her boyfriend was controlling and jealous.
He would accuse her of cheating and go through her phone,
and sometimes the abuse turned physical. But rather than putting
her in the house and making her abusive relationship a storyline,
or just sending her home with no explanation at all,
Jaslene says A and TM producers made a deal with her.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
They were like, you know, if you get out of
that relationship, if you could help, we would guarantee your
spot back into the house, and so I underwent six
months of therapy to understand what domestic violence is, how
to get out of it, built some confidence in so
(08:05):
once I came back, I auditioned.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And the rest is history.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yes, Jessie, I didn't make it the first time, but
now look at me.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I'm America's next Top Model. I'm a covered and I
think that shows.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
To all young women, if you have that drive, keep going.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Jessie made it into the house on cycle eight and
won the whole thing. She told me A and TM
wasn't just a show she won or her ticket into
the modeling industry. It was a lifeline.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
I didn't see those bad patterns, bad behavior as an
abusers profile, so I would have seen my ex boyfriend
as someone just normal treating me normal.
Speaker 7 (08:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
So there was this new awareness that now I can't
we even throughout my life. To this day, I feel
like being on America's Next Top Model actually saved my life.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Jaslene's experience with the A and TM psyche vow is
an example of how it worked at its best, but
Jazzleene's story is rare for a lot of contestants. It
was just an annoying thing they had to do to
get on the show. But there are some who say
this psyche vowel was the beginning of their A and
(09:28):
TM trauma, and others who say it was biased and flawed.
When we started looking into the psyche vow we thought
we were just exploring a little known aspect of A
andtm's casting process. We thought we would do one episode
about how it worked and how it was used on
the show. But when we scratched beneath the surface, we
figured out there was a lot more to this story.
(09:51):
Contestants say the personal trauma they shared in their psyche
vowels was later used to produce the show, and we
found contestants who may have slipped through the cracks, people
who's casting raises serious questions, and some of those contestants
later met tragic ends. To understand the darker side of
(10:13):
ANTM psychological evaluation, you first have to understand what it is,
how it works, and the ways it fell short. So
on part one of this two part episode, that's what
we're going to break down. Being on reality TV can
be stressful. The days are long, and you have a
camera in your face from the moment you wake up
(10:33):
at six AM to the moment you go to sleep
at one am. You're completely isolated from your friend's family
and often the outside world. You're put in bizarre situations
you probably wouldn't otherwise encounter in your real life. It's
relentless and in the back of your mind you know
any little thing you do will be watched and judged
(10:54):
by millions of people. It's enough to fuck with anybody's
mental health. That's why psyche vows are are pretty standard
practice in reality TV casting. From what I understand, A
and TM psyche vile involved a written test portion and
an actual conversation with the psychologist. Here's Psycle twenty four
contestant Gina Turner.
Speaker 8 (11:13):
I'm from Minnesota, so I do remember that our psyche
valuations were conducted and put together by the University of Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Gina's referring to the Minnesota Multi Phasic Personality Inventory, or
the MMPI. It's one of the most widely used psychological
tests in the world. Based on what I've heard, the
version the models took was probably the MMPI two. It's
a huge test containing over five hundred true false questions
(11:40):
where the statements are designed to feel random, even repetitive
at times, so the person taking it can't easily predict
what the test is measuring. Here are a few real
questions from the test. You select true or false. Number one,
I like mechanics magazines. Number two anyone at times, I
(12:01):
have very much wanted to leave home. Number one forty four,
I believe I am being followed. Number five forty I
have gotten angry and broken furniture or dishes when I
was drinking. And my personal favorite, Number one ninety one,
I would like to be a journalist. The test has
(12:23):
a lot of uses. It can screen for things like depression,
personality disorders, or emotional distress. We don't know what A
and TM psychologists were really screening for, who they were
trying to keep out, and who they were trying to find,
but we do know that the MMPI is usually just
a starting place. The answers alone don't tell you much
(12:44):
about a person. What really matters is the context. That's
why I follow up with the mental health professional. It's
critical in the follow up a person can explain the
answers and how they relate to their own behaviors. The
follow up discussion shapes how the test is interpreted, but
the MMPI seems to be just one of the tests
A and TM used. It sounds like the models were
(13:07):
also given scenario based tests with multiple choice answers. You
met Lisa Demado last episode. She was first on cycle
five and was later given that controversial win on cycle seventeen.
Here's what she said about A ANDTM scenario based test.
Speaker 9 (13:23):
Some of the questions involve scenarios like this, if a
group of people are bowling one person.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
What do you do?
Speaker 9 (13:33):
It's multiple choice, but it'd be like, I stand up
for that person, it's none of my business, you know?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Or this or that.
Speaker 9 (13:40):
It shows the way that you would actually react to
any given type of situation.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
The psyche valve seemed to be a big part of
the casting process. The model spent hours taking tests and
having conversations with psychologists, and they were told it was
for their safety.
Speaker 9 (13:58):
When you first go on America Next Top Model or
you're getting cast for it, they preface you going to
see a psychologist to make sure that you are prepared mentally,
that you aren't gonna be a danger to yourself or
to anybody else on the show, because you're gonna be
put under insane stress because you're basically taken out of
(14:23):
your life that you're used to and you're kind of,
you know, stuck in this whole Truman Show experience where
you're cut off from anything you know and love, and
then also because you're gonna then be put on television,
it's to evaluate to make sure that this is safe
for everyone and yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Here's Britney Brower from cycle four.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
I just remember the psych evaluation, or my understanding of it,
was basically to make sure we were like mentally able
to go with like extreme like I don't want to
say mind games, but we're gonna be put through a lot.
Can you handle it? And that's kind of how we
are told, like we need to know that you're not
going to break down get suicidal. They've got to make
(15:02):
sure you're not suicidal. And it would just keep asking
the same questions in different ways over and over and
over again. I'm like, oh my gosh, no, I'm not
going to kill myself.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Oh my god.
Speaker 10 (15:14):
No I'm not going to harm anybody else, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Hannahcat Jones was on a later season, cycle sixteen. She
remembers being told about past contestants who weren't cut out
for the rigors of reality TV.
Speaker 11 (15:25):
I was under the impression that the psych evaluation was
to make sure that we were mentally stable for the show.
They were like, you are going to experience a lot
of pressure, and girls in the past have not been
able to handle that, so we have to make sure
that you're mentally strong enough to go through with what
(15:46):
production will ask of you.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
The contestants were told the psyche vow was about their safety.
A ANDTM wanted to make sure potential contestants wouldn't harm
themselves or others while on an A ANDTM set. But
as we explore Top Model psyche vowel process, I want
you to ask yourself, what does safety really mean? And
who's safety were they really worried about? Those are the
(16:10):
questions my production team thought about a lot. It's clear
A ANDTM was worried about the contestants' physical safety and
maybe their own. I'm sure they didn't want anyone to
haul off in Smack Tyra, and I'm sure they didn't
want to get hit with a wrongful death lawsuit. But
I do wonder if they were really concerned about the
model's mental and emotional well being. I wanted to know
(16:33):
more about how A andtm' psyche vowel process worked, so
I reached out to one of A and TM's longtime psychologists,
doctor Suzanne Zachary. She told me A ANDTM was an
interesting show to work on, but because of her contract,
she couldn't do an interview for this podcast. So I
reached out to someone else who knows all about psyche
vows and reality TV. He's as og as you can get.
(16:59):
Twenty five year years ago, psychologist doctor Stephen Stein developed
one of the first tests that measured emotional intelligence. Around
nineteen ninety nine, he got a call from a guy
who knew about this test, who knew a guy who
was developing a new TV.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Show, and he was looking for a psychologist because he
was going to do some TV show, and he asked
me if this emotional intelligence might be helpful. I didn't know, really,
but I said, well, we can find out what's the
show about. And he said, well, they're going to put
these people on an island and then vote out one
each week, and that would be the nature of the show.
I said, wow, who's going to watch that?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
That show, of course, turned out to be Survivor and
they used doctor Stein's adapted emotional intelligence tests to cast
the first season. Since then, doctor Stein has worked on
dozens and dozens of reality shows, including franchises of Big Brother,
The Amazing Race, and The Bachelor. Doctor Stein confirmed that
when he's working on a show, his first priority is
(17:56):
to make sure the contestant is a safe choice.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
We want to make sure that we have no significant
psychotic episodes bipolar, or they're not have some substance abuse,
or they're not very aggressive and have problems with anger.
So there' as certain things that we rule out borderline personality.
We want to make sure that it's going to be
a safe environment, both for them and the other cast members.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I asked doctor Stein about the MMPI two, the psychological
test the models were given, and about how it's used
in reality TV casting. Doctor Stein uses the same test
when he's conducting psyche valves.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
It's the most widely used mental health test in psychology.
It's used almost everywhere hospitals and clinics and all that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
But doctor Stein doesn't only use the MMPI for safety.
He also has a say in casting, so he looks
for certain personality types and emotional traits that could make
great TV. Some of the.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Questions we asked look at things like your ability to
identify your own emotions, how you're feeling. Some people will
have no idea how they're feelings. Some people are really
tuned into their own feelings. We look at how do
you express yourself?
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Think about the talking hit confessionals we see on a
lot of reality TV shows. Cast members need to be
able to talk about their feelings, doctor Stein. It's also
interested in how well a person plays with others, your.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Ability to make good relationships with others, your interpersonal skills,
your ability to make good decisions. Do you get over
emotional and make bad decisions or are you cool, calm
and collect. And finally, your ability to manage stress, which
is a big thing in reality shows. You got to
sometimes go through long periods of time stressful situations, so
(19:40):
we want to see how well you are at managing
the stress in your life.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
But there is one trait, he says, almost all reality
stars have across the board.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
If you're going to be on a reality show, chances
are about ninety percent you're going to score high on
a narcissism scale. Narcissists want to be on TV. Also,
the narcissists tend to perform right. They want the attention,
So when they're on a show, they take up all
the light, and you know, production likes that. They like
people who are in the limelight and do funny things
(20:10):
and so on.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Doctor Stein also told me that what he looks for
isn't universal. What works for one reality show might not
work for another.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
So some shows, you know, we like to call them
a social experiment. Think of The Big Brother and shows
like that, where you put people in a house or
in a situation and there what's important is your ability
to kind of use your interpersonal skills and maybe even
be a bit manipulative of your ability to manipulate other people.
Other shows, maybe cooking shows, you may be looking for
a different set of skills. You may be looking for
(20:42):
how they deal under stress because they have a very
brief time to cook or bake or whatever they're about
to do in the competition.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
In the case of A and TM, it's more like
how well can you pose with a tiger? There are
a lot of ways tests like this can be useful,
but it's not a perfect system. It's flawed because well
it's written and administered by people, and people are biased.
Speaker 12 (21:06):
When you come from a different culture, people who don't
come from that culture may take how you say things
is being angry or aggressive.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
We'll get into that after the break. We explained how
psyche vowels and reality TV work. They're designed to weed
out people who might be dangerous to themselves and others,
and one indication that a person could be dangerous or
(21:39):
violent is anger. You met Angelie preston last episode. She
was the one who got her win on All Stars revoked.
On her first appearance on ANTM, she was sent home.
During the Cycle twelve audition process. She got into it
with another semi finalist named Sandra. Here's tape of their argument.
(21:59):
You and I problem.
Speaker 12 (22:01):
Because I can Soandra looked at me, she now you
want to roll your eyes like you know, like, don't
get me started long Now you don't have any class.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I have no time.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
The two models called each other names, and Angelie gave
her the good old talk to the hand. But by
today's standards, it's all pretty tame. It certainly doesn't make
Angelie seem volatile or mentally unstable, but it still got
her cut.
Speaker 12 (22:34):
The casting director was like this, is not the end.
We just want you to take anger management classes because
we just want you to get you know your anger
and check. And I don't think I was necessarily angry.
I think what it was is the way I expressed myself.
When you come from a different culture and you're interacting
(22:56):
with people who don't come from that culture, they may
take how you say things is being angry or aggressive.
And I guess there were concerns that I was possibly
going to hit someone in the house.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Angelie says there was even an opportunity to get into
a physical altercation with her op when her rival's name
got called to join the cast. That girl intentionally shoulder
checked Angelie.
Speaker 12 (23:22):
She bumped me going over to Tyra, and like everybody
thought I was gonna hit her and I didn't.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
So I think it was like the.
Speaker 12 (23:33):
Psychiatrist was telling them based on the little test that
we take, oh she's violent or blah blah blah, but
you're not seeing that when this girl bumped me, because
I could have went after her, but I didn't because
you know, I'll be talking, I'll be I'll be rah rah,
but I'm really a softie, Like I'm not gonna with
hit nobody.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Angelie took A and TM's advice and went to anger
management classes. She had to pay for it herself. When
she came back for cycle fourteen, she was cast on
the show. But Angelie wasn't the only contestant who was
told to go to anger management before making it into
the A and TM House. Tiffany, We were rooting for you.
Richardson originally auditioned for cycle three. She made it to
(24:17):
the semi finals and on the first episode got into
a good old fashioned bar fight when some random woman
poured a drink on her during a dance battle.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Bitch for beer on my Wii. So I'm thinking, on't
fight do it?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
You know?
Speaker 13 (24:30):
Everything was I had the evil twin and the good.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
One, so as we all know the evil one one.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
As soon as I turn around, I hear classes breaking all. No,
she did not unbelievable just my opinion, but I always
thought that fight looked stage like the producers had an
idea of how Tiffany might react and set her up
to have some drama on the first episode. Tiffany was
(25:01):
sent home during the cycle three semifinals. She talked about
this with Oliver TwixT in twenty twenty two. He's a
content creator and top model super fan. During the pandemic,
he started interviewing dozens of antim models on his personal channels,
and Oliver is a consulting producer on this podcast. Here's
what Tiffany told him. I didn't pass the mental test
(25:21):
the first time.
Speaker 13 (25:23):
The questions that was asking was so weird, like if
the police pull you over and you got such such
witty is you gonna tell the truth or is you
gonna stag it? And so they put all these questions
and then if you don't answer them correctly, they make
you think you crazy. So I felt like I shouldn't
even told the truth because I thought by telling the
truth they would appreciate me more.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
But I didn't get picked.
Speaker 13 (25:44):
Before I left, producers whispered to me and they were
saying things about the anger management and different stuff like that.
So I already kind of had it in my brain
that I was going back to the fourth and they
say you go get your anger management.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Well, welcome to full cycle. Let me say this. We
don't know if any the other contestants were sent to
anger management based on the psyche vows. These are just
the women who've spoken publicly about their experience. We also
don't know about the models who were flagged and didn't
get a second chance. It's clear Tyra and the producers
(26:15):
wanted Tiffany and Angelie on the show, and rightfully so.
They gave us some of A and TM's most memorable moments.
But before they got there, A and TM told them
to get anger management. Now here's the thing about anger.
It's subjective. Everyone gets angry, but not everyone's anger is
deemed violent or dangerous. The elephant in the room here
(26:38):
is that Angelie and Tiffany are both black, and they
were the ones who were told to get anger management
before they got cast on the show, which is ironic
for a show that gave a lot of airtime to
contestants angry outbursts. Remember a Lease from cycle one, whose
rant you heard on episode two she called Giselle a
worthless cunt whose parents should be a ashamed of her.
(27:01):
And Jennifer Frost from cycle three, who pushed another contestant
on camera.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
I don't know the other way. Don't ever touch me again,
or else you will get knocked out. Oh, I'd like
to see it, god.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
And what about Lauren Utter from cycle ten? Who stood
on a chair and screamed at another contestant during an argument.
On a later episode, she told another contestant she helps
they choke on their coffee.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Here's your call coffee, a big lady.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You are not even what they choke on it. Or
the conflict between Romeo and Adam on cycle twenty one,
I don't understand that.
Speaker 7 (27:38):
Guys, there's zero percent chance I punched you right now,
So I don't know if you're if it's like, so.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Punch me, it's punched me, so punched me, So punch me,
so punch punch me. I'm not gonna punch you.
Speaker 8 (27:48):
Because it said.
Speaker 12 (27:48):
Automat punch me.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Romeo head budded Adam.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Romeo's crazy. He's a little cannon. You head butted to somebody.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
That sounds pretty angry to me. And there are other examsamples,
But as far as we know, whatever those contestants told
psychologists wasn't enough to get them flagged as too angry
to be on the show, and that raises concerns about
the psychologists who are evaluating the candidates. There's research that
shows that at least two thirds of healthcare providers, including
(28:19):
mental health professionals, demonstrate implicit bias against marginalized groups. Not
only that, the MMPI two the tests the models were given,
has been widely criticized for being biased when it was
originally developed in the forties. The control group they based
the test on was made up of mostly young, white,
(28:39):
married people from Minnesota. Even after revisions, researchers have found
that black test takers often score higher on certain scales
like paranoia, not necessarily because of mental illness, but because
of the effect of lived realities like racism and discrimination.
We don't know for sure it's bias played a role
(29:01):
in Tiffany and Angelie being sent to anger Management. Whatever
the reason, the A and TM psychologists thought Tiffany and
Angelie didn't have the temperament for the competition, but they
weren't told to seek therapy to talk about the underlying
issues that could be making them angry. A and TM
advised them to go to anger management, which is a
(29:21):
glorified band aid for deeper problems, and that band aid
seemed to work well enough for A and TM. The
next time Angelie pressed an audition, she knew exactly what
the psychologists wanted to hear.
Speaker 12 (29:35):
I was lying on the psychic vow, like I can't
let these motherfuckers they come crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
After the break, we get into the other blind spot
of the psyche vow. After talking to Angelie Preston myself,
I don't think she was by I don't even think
she's angry. I think she was confrontational. After Angelie went
(30:07):
to Anger Management, she auditioned for A and TM again,
and this time she knew what to say.
Speaker 12 (30:14):
One of the things the psychiatrists pointed out after I
was eliminated in the first episode was my psych results.
I feel like I was too honest on Psycle twelve.
I feel like I was too honest with the questions.
I was like, Okay, now I know when I'll go
back on again. I got to tighten up. I can't
(30:35):
be as honest because if I'm honest, then that could
possibly hurt my opportunity again.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
So Angelie did what she needed to do to get cast.
I was lying on the.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Psychic valve, like I can't let these motherfuckers they come crazy.
And you know what's funny now that I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
About it, because you meet with the psychiatrist.
Speaker 12 (30:58):
So I remember her saying your answers from the first
time you audition to now are so different, and in
my mom I'm like.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Please, like I knew what to say on this one.
This time, Angelie gave the answers she thought would get
her on the show, but it wasn't necessarily the truth.
Here's what Psychle twenty four is, Gina Turner told me
about her psyche val.
Speaker 8 (31:24):
I'm gonna be completely fucking honest with you. I lied
on my fucking test. It would be like, if Johnny
was running after you with a knife, what would you do.
A Stand there and let him stab you, B run
the opposite direction. Three grab a weapon and defend yourself,
or four commit suicide or like something stupid. Right, my
(31:45):
answer would be, see, I'm gonna grab a weapon and
defend myself. Johnny gotta go.
Speaker 10 (31:49):
But I knew that that's.
Speaker 8 (31:50):
Probably not the way I wanted to be represented. I
didn't really want them to know, like exactly who I
was and how I would respond to every scenario. So,
like some things, I was stressful with the I was like, hmm,
this question seems a little bit like too specific.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I was like, let me go ahead and like monitor
my answer just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
We don't know what a and TM psychologists were really
looking for, but some contestants say they just gave the
answers that they thought would get them past the psyche val.
We don't know if it made a difference or not.
What we know is that they got cast on the show.
I want to tell you about one more case of
a contestant telling A and TM psychologists something that wasn't true.
(32:31):
Remember Jaslene, who you heard from at the top of
this episode. She was red flagged by psychologists because she
was in an abusive relationship. They sent her away, advised
her to go to therapy, and told her to come
back once she left that relationship. A and TM loved
a Cinderella story where a girl with a traumatic background
(32:51):
is transformed by the magic of Tyra Banks. When Jaslene
came back to audition again, she told Tyra and A
and TM producers she left that relationship. It was what
they wanted to hear, but it wasn't true. This is Jazzling.
A year after her win on Tyra's talk show, I
have a confession.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I was with my ex boyfriend for four years.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
He did hit me and you know, went through emotional abuse,
but I ended up going back to him.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
A and TM didn't use her abusive relationship as a storyline,
but Tyra and her production company found a way to
get some mileage out of it in this incredibly cringey
segment of The Tyra Show.
Speaker 7 (33:37):
So after that, we're, you know, off camera, we're talking,
and I'm like, I'm so proud of you. You got
out of that bad relationship. And you're like, yeah, Mama, Tyra,
I got out. So how did you feel being not
truthful with me and knowing that she were still with him?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
It hurted me a lot, actually, like it was. It
was a deep secret. You know, it's gonna be very hard.
I'm sorry. I don't want to their baby cry. No,
it's not a baby cry, Jesseline, that's not a baby cry.
This is real. It's okay.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I respect you so much, and I've ficience so much
you've done from you, Cyril, and I am willing to
stand here and accept my mistake.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
I don't even think it makes you a liar, because
part of abuse is living in this weird world and
almost lying to yourself.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I think you were still in that cycle of hell.
So I forgive you, forget.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
I've watched this clip again and again and it's so
strange that it's framed. Is Jazline apologizing to Tyra? Do
y'all really think Tyra didn't know before this moment when
you went, yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
He did it? I said it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I was destinally one of those where I just stood
back and I was like, no, you know what, like,
it's not gonna happen no more.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So where are you now with him? Are you really
broken up?
Speaker 7 (34:53):
Or are you Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I live in New York.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
I want to be clear, I'm not blaming Jazleene here.
Use is a cycle, and it usually takes survivors multiple
tries to leave for good if they ever do. Jaslene
eventually ended the relationship after her win, and she does
credit the show with helping her leave, But the point
is she told the psychologists what they wanted to hear
(35:17):
and it worked. At the beginning of this episode, we
heard from contestants who were told the psyche vowel was
for their own safety, but how could a process with
these glaring shortcomings really keep them safe? The portion of
the psyche vow that was done in the name of
safety seemed in part to be about covering Antm's own ass.
(35:39):
They didn't want someone who would take their own life
on the show or six months after. They didn't want
someone who would walk off set when production got too intense.
They didn't want someone who might attack a union protected
crew member. Basically, they didn't want someone who would be
a liability to the show. But here's where the psyche
vow gets really interesting. Because they did want people with
(36:02):
traumatic backgrounds, it gave them something to use to create storylines.
Courtney Davies was on Cycle thirteen. She was also in
an abusive relationship before auditioning for A and TM. She
shared this with the show psychologist, and she told Oliver
Twigs that on her first day on set, that's all
the producers wanted to talk to her about.
Speaker 11 (36:24):
Like the very first time I walked out, they were like,
tell us about your abusive relationship.
Speaker 10 (36:30):
I just wanted to be me and not have that
be a part of my story. Like they wanted me
to be the.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Victim and like the damaged girl.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Courtney wouldn't cooperate. She refused to talk about it. But
there were contestants who were blindsided with their trauma on camera,
like Marvita Washington. Marvita originally auditioned for Cycle nine. In
her psyche vow, she shared she was a survivor of
childhood sexual abuse, and the producers clearly shared that with
Tyra so she could bring it up on camera. Here's
(37:03):
mar Vida cycle nine audition. I don't even know why
I'm crying. I don't even cry.
Speaker 7 (37:08):
I hear that you've been through a lot, a lot,
a lot of stuff in your life. Tell me about
growing up and all the things that she went through
and all the tragedy.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
I went through a lot as a kid.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I've been just passed off to family members a lot,
so I was always having to adapt to new people,
new places.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
A lot of people have done a lot of bad
things to me. Why don't you talk about them?
Speaker 1 (37:34):
I was molested right So.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Much has happened to you.
Speaker 7 (37:38):
What makes you strong enough to still stand here right
now in front of us?
Speaker 1 (37:45):
After Tyra asked her these invasive questions, Marvita wasn't selected
for cycle nine. She was told to go to therapy,
which she did. When she came back to audition for
cycle ten, she made it onto the show, where her
childhood abuse was a part of her storyline. Marvita isn't
the only contestant who said the deep personal trauma they
(38:06):
shared in their psyche vow was later used by producers
to manipulate them for the cameras. On the next episode,
we'll get into the hidden use of the psychological evaluation.
Contestants were told the psyche vow was for their safety
and screening purposes, but many say it was used for
a lot more than that.
Speaker 8 (38:28):
But I just remember, for hours and hours on Andy
just kept focusing on me being suicidal, and It's like,
I just want to talk about something happy. I don't
want to talk about growing up in foster care. And
it was just really fucked up. I was exhausted. I
was physically so exhausted, and I remember putting my handsmu
it and I was like, I don't want to talk
about it anymore, and I'm crying. But that is literally
the clip that they used for how I emotionally responded
(38:52):
for losing the competition.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Then we'll talk about the contestants who's casting raises serious
questions about the A and TM psyche contestants whose lives
took a dark turn once the show ended. Thanks for
listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. We
really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to really
show your support by subscribing to our show on Apple
(39:17):
Podcasts and don't forget to leave us a five star
rating and review. If you love the show, tell your group, chat,
your co workers, your friends, your mama to check us out,
and if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself.
Thanks again to all of our listeners. The Curse of
America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
(39:41):
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.
Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcrie, and Curry Richmond.
Consulting producers are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart
(40:02):
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing and
mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vecchio. The Curse
of America's Next Top Model theme music was composed by
Oliver Baines. Music library provided by mid Music Special Thanks
to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the models
for sharing their stories. And for more podcasts from iHeart,
(40:25):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Also check out the Glass Podcast Instagram at
Glass Podcast for Curse of America's Next Top Model, behind
the scenes content, and more
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