Ep. 110: High Performance Muzzleloaders with Arrowhead Rifles

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today's
guest is the owner of Airhead Rifles, Luke Krok. Arrowhead
is known for smoke with muzzloaders. They're getting more into
that custom center fire rifle and then also muzzlover components.
How things going, Luke? Great?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, I just got back from a cow el con
over in New Mexico. So back at the grind, but
feeling feeling refreshed.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah. Nice. Nice. It looks like you and your dad
have been going out there for maybe a couple of
years doing the cow All cut. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
He actually he went last year.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
He bailed on me this year because he's got He
drew on Range Rix in March and he's a kind
of a Midwest home body, so getting him out for
two hunts and the seas and is kind of tough.
But yeah, yeah, so I took a buddy over this year.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
It looks like you guys were successful according to Facebook. Yeah, yeah,
uh you got you got to do any other hunting
or has that been it for the fall? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Actually, Jim over there at Marsupial Gear. I went on
impromptu Angelo punt with him over in New Mexico as
well back in late August and got you know, like
a seventy inch buck had a fun hunt over there,
and then I'll, uh, I'll head down to Mexico for
coups there in January.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yep, yep. We were just talking talking about that a
little bit ahead of the show. You know, we've been
you know Darr really well, and I've been going with
you know, Jay and Darr down there and it's it's
a it's a really fun hunt there south of the border.
So this would be my first year not going in
four years. I'm a little a little sad that decided
to take on and help coach our high school boys basketball.
So it'll be another little fun, fun adventure. But that
January hunt is going to get in the way of

(01:45):
that somehow take a year off. But yeah, So back
to like how how I got ahold of you? How
I you know, I guess introduced, you know, through me
just buying stuff because I didn't know what I was doing.
I had bought a seven hundred ultimate muzzle order you
two years ago, Washington State where I live, changed the
ignition system law. Finally, you know, we had went from

(02:08):
we had number elevens and muskets, we went to two
on nine's were legal as long as they were open
and breached, and then ultimately they went to all modern
ignition system I believe, And don't quote me on any
of these, you know, to our listeners, don't quote me
on those. But I remember, like I shot just a
Northwest Traditions muzzli er forever because I knew I was
safe with muskets. And then I went right from that

(02:29):
gun to to the ultimate. And you know, I probably
do things wrong because I jump on the internet and
start reading, you know, and there's there's mixed reviews. But
one thing that started to jump out as I was
developing loads for this this ultimate was you can't load
too much, you know, black Horn two nine, because you're
gonna you know, I guess I'm gonna describe it way

(02:53):
worse than you can, but basically you're gonna start to
gas vent and gas cut your breech plug right right.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
So the yeah, these higher you know, higher performance muzzle loaders. Uh,
if you if you have leakage one time, generally you
get gas cutting, which is just you know, the the
gas escaping from the ignition, but it'll actually like burn
a channel through your breach plug. And you know you
may slow it down, but once once it leaks, once

(03:22):
it's just gonna get worse.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Worse, worse, and keep cutting cutting back. So me, being conservative,
didn't have time to mess with it. I I load,
and once again, don't check my math because I was
just doing it by volume. So I said, all right,
one hundred grains by volume, which I think converted like
seventy three grains by weight, like a very mild load. Yeah,
So I jumped down to just two hundred and fifty
grain federal borlock bullet. It was easy to load. I

(03:46):
got it to shoot well out to one hundred and
went hunted and killed an elk with that. But then
the more I read, the more I'm like, man, this
really intrigues me. These guys are getting you know, I'm
we're gonna put a disclaimer on all of these, like
my load data that we're going to talk about stuff
that Luke may talk about, like you need to work
up to all of those, like don't just take a
number and go put in your gun, because there's pressure,

(04:08):
there's differences, like you need to make sure that works
in your gun, and it could be dangerous to go
out and do those. But you know, so you know,
my mom always says, I'm the hardest guy to ever
buy for for Christmas. What do you want? I said, Well,
if you can get me an arrowhead like Gen two
breach for this gun and some modules like that, that'll work.
Like we'll we'll go with that. And so I didn't
have any intention of muzzloader hunting this year. Got lucky,

(04:30):
drew a tag and realized that the muzzloader season I'm
not going to get in all the conditions of my tag.
It's very complex, but basically I had to switch over
to a muzzloader on September twenty eighth, which I thought
I was gonna be able to use my modern rifle,
but since there was a general mussloader season in that unit.
So I'm like I was in a rush, you know,
I was installing the and then you know we you know,

(04:52):
thankfully the Gen too. You got pretty dialed. It worked, right,
you know, the little go no gay gauge worked. I'm like,
all right, got that by and went and developed a
and you know kind of was, you know, worried about
ordering bullets. I ordered some furry bolts from you, some
three hundred and twenty grain theories and got it all
set up, but I made some posts about it. And
the reason I've got you on as a guest is

(05:14):
I didn't realize how many questions there are about muzzloaders.
It seems like nowadays, you go to order a custom rifle,
you pick a yeah, you pick a caliber that you like,
you know, pick a stock that the gun builder recommends,
and you're on your way. Where muzzleloaders there's it seems
to be like there's a little more unknown. And I
had a ton of questions about my setup, and I
realized at that point right there, I was not the
right guy to be answering those questions, and so I

(05:36):
wanted to bring you on. You know, I know there
are you know, some other builders out there, but arrow Head,
you know, by far is is kind of the leading
you know, aftermarket muzzleoader component manufacturer, And that's why I
wanted to have you on, so you can answer all
these questions that have been brought to me, and you know,
hopefully hopefully answer them a lot better than I can.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
There, I mean, there's I think a lot with the
like you said, as center fire, it's kind of simplistic
relative to a muzzloader. And then there's just so many
variations of muzzleloaders out there, yep. And then you've got
just a load of different projectiles and powders, and I
can definitely get overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah. And when I started, so I cut my teeth
muzzloder hunting, and it was my dad's way to extend
his season. I think is why I got because growing up,
elk hunting was the right of passage. You could deer
hunt with a rifle when you were young, but elk
hunting was for the men. You know. They they would
go out. I live in an area with nothing but timber,
so they would glass clear cuts for the first twenty
thirty minutes and then they were in the timber all day.

(06:38):
And they didn't want to deal with a you know,
a fifth or sixth grader. You know, I don't even
know how old for the traders are now, you know.
So Dad would let me muzzloder hunt. It would extend
his season. We get the elk hunt more. But I
can remember back in the old days, we had lots
of opportunities, but you know, bad hang fires guns that
just wouldn't go off with three or four percussion. You know,
you would try to reload and the gun just wouldn't

(06:58):
go off. I live in this you know, super wet Northwest,
and so like my experience with muzzloaders originally was like
this is this sucks, like you can't you know. And
uh So as time goes on, the rules change, Washington rules,
I would say, lax, whether you like them or not,
they've allowed you know, more uh, you know, efficient, which

(07:19):
I do. Like, we're not hang firing and shooting an
elk and the you know, the wrong shoulder, the back,
you know, whatever it may be. We're more accurate. But
I will say that these more modern mussloaders are definitely
more efficient and are probably allowing hunters to take more game.
But I you know, at least we're not wounding them
or making bad hits. So now that was my original
introduction to muzzloaders was hang fires guns that just didn't

(07:41):
go off, or guns that weren't as accurate because we
were you know, maybe getting eighteen hundred feet per second,
you know, sevente hundred fet per second out of the
barrel on these old you know, drop two pyrate ex
pelts down and stuff a bullet in, and so that
leads us to today. You know, the ultimate muzzloader seemed
to be like a big undertaking than you guys have
taken it, you know, way way farther with was smokeless,

(08:03):
with you know, forty five caliber conversions even on the
black powder and black powder substitutes. Like where how fast
has like muzzleoader technology kind of changed, you know, from
I would say twenty to ten to even now, like
it seems to be a pretty you know, a pretty
quick developing I guess niche within in hunting market.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, well, I think I started Arrowhead in two thousand
and eleven and that kind of came out if I
was started bought a I think it was two thousand
and six, two thousand and eight. Somewhere in that time,
I'd bought the Savage ten mL two, which was, I
guess to this point, the first and only commercially available
smokeless powder capable muzzleoader, and there were some quite there,

(08:47):
there were some deficiencies with that, and we'd started to
rebarrel them to forty five cow with a with a
premium aftermarket barrel.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
So you know, early on it was we kind.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Of called it like the the Flying Hardware Store, because
like people are trying to figure out how to get
sabos to shoot well with the higher pressure and stuff
and washers and sub bases in there and all that stuff.
So I feel like it's plateaued a little bit in
the last couple of years as far as the performance.
But yeah, i'd say like from well, what it's been

(09:25):
thirteen years now since I started arrowhead, Like back then,
two hundred yards was still kind of considered a longer shot,
and you know now that's you know, we go straight
to four or five hundred yards. I still you know,
people hear that four to five hundred yards and start
wringing their hands, the traditionalists do, which I mean, I

(09:46):
understand that, but I tried to pump the brakes on
people go into four or five hundred yards for hunting.
I mean it, it's definitely doable, but guys are factoring
in wind drift and stuff like that. So we still
we'll see a lot of guys totally with you. You know,
you need to just like any firearm bow whatever, you

(10:06):
had to get out there and put in your time
after range and and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
But yeah, it's in the last decade.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
It's I mean, like I said, two hundred yards, which
used to be I'd rebarreled that Savage ten mL two
to forty five calend I had a bunch of antler
list tags. I was living back in Iowa at the time,
and I think I killed three or four year in
like two to two hundred and fifty yard range, and
I was like hot.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
I thought it was hot stuff.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
I was definitely strutting around bragging all my buddies after that. Now,
you know, two hundred yards, you know, you know that's
kind of considered average at this point.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, And I remember my first my first experience with UH,
with the Ultimate muzzleloader, which I know they make, you know,
better aftermarket musslos or custom built, but I remember going
to New Mexico and my buddy loading up. I think
back then he was running like one hundred and three
greens by weight. You know. We'd sit there at the
little powder measure. I'm like, what are we doing all
this for? Like, we don't do that back home. You

(11:04):
just drop some pellets down, and then I went and
shought a I believe it was like a three shot
group of four hundred yards. Back when New Mexico didn't
have the limitations they do now, and we shot like
a four inch group at fo hundred yards and I
was just blown away. I'm like, this gun literally shoots
better than most factory rifles can shoot at that time.
And that was you know back.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Then, right, and even you know, like you take just
a factory Remington Ultimate or Night. You know, they've all
made off and on over the years, great muzzle oders
where you know, accuracy wasn't even necessarily the issue downrange.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
It was it was energy.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Like we you know, I recalled tons of stories over
the years where somebody would have a buck at big
old Iowa white tail at two three hundred yards and
you know, their gun would shoot subma, so they'd line
it up and shoot and maybe they made a great shot,
but you know a lot of times they didn't find
the year till next spring because the energy is is

(12:00):
petering off, like they're never getting an exit at that distance.
So oh, we are pushing stuff a lot faster where
it's a lot more ethical to on the on the
killing side where you're actually getting exit wounds at three
four hundred yards so you recover those animals.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and that's where. You know, when I built my chart,
I went and put it all in there, and then
I checked, like all right, at some point you're in
a out of energy, you're in an out of speed,
and like, let's limit you know, anything to you know,
three point fifty and in. Yeah, And my biggest limiting
factor is in my state is you're trying to do
all this with the one X scope and that red
dot SI has to get really big, you know, out
there at three hundred or you know, whatever it is.
And and that was my limiting factor because the gun

(12:39):
and the load that we developed, we were we were
only getting you know, we were almost getting a little
over twenty one hundred feet per second I think out
of that three twenty. But it's a big bull. It's
got a BC a point two six, and so I
would just look, I'm like, all right, you know, this
is where we should cut it, and this is where
my scope with you know, one one rotation of the turret,
like I'm out of elevation. So we went out there.
You know, I've got a really good rifle range right

(13:01):
here in my backyard, Like confirmed, I could hit a
you know, eight by I think it's an eight by
ten rectangle at three hundred and thirty yards like consistently
every shot. It does take a little dancing, like moving
the dot. Are we on the target? You know, left
right up, down, like you're trying to dance that little loophole.
I use a loophold red dot, you know, trying to
dance the size of that and can you still see it?
And you know, the gun, as long as I had

(13:22):
a good rest and could take my time, you know,
the gun was capable of three hundred thirty yards all
day long. The limiting factor was just that stinking you
know one x. I had no magnification, and so you're
just you know, trying to make that work. And that's
where I say, everything kind of dialed and I can
shoot that far. I can dial that far. The energy
is still good there. But you go much farther, I'm
gonna have to, you know, either find a newer load

(13:43):
that's pushing faster, a lighter bullet. And then that's when
you know, we had talked a little bit like well,
maybe you know, if you really want to get more,
you know, go down to forty five. And I think
that's because you can get your speeds up and keep
the energy up a lot longer or a lot farther
out there.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah, more more speed and then higher blistic coefficient.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
So yeah, it maintains them further out.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
So that'd be like the next step, you know, if
we didn't want to shoot the stock fifty kel remonton
now or I've got to ask, are there in like
once you add your guys as a breach. You know,
we've got the stock, Remington barrel. I've had a little
bit of trigger work done just by like a local
local gunsmith. You'll lighten it a little bit for me,
cut the spring, and then you know, put it back together.
Is there anything else that like, you know, it's probably

(14:26):
good enough for ninety nine percent of the muzzliter hunters
out there at that point, right once you put the
breach and can push it a little farther, or there's
some inherent like is there a bad stock? Is the stock?
You know? Are there some things that you would say.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean, well, like yours that the Remington Ultimate,
I think they have two flavors of it. One in
a laminate woodstock. There's no aluminum pillars in the woodstock
or anything like that, so you I mean they're like
if you were going to break it down from an
inherent accuracy thing, you know, pillar betting that stock would

(14:59):
potentially improve things for you. I mean as a you know,
the fundamentals of accuracy between like a rifle and the
muzzle that are still there. So whether those changes are gonna,
you know, on a stock gone like that, if you're
even gonna you know, see an measurable improvement, you know,
as questionable. But I mean those are like if you were,

(15:22):
you know, a hobbyist and just had time to putts
around and wanted to ring the absolute most accuracy out
of it, that's something you could do.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
The other stock they have is Bella Carlson the M forty.
It's got the the integral aluminum block and it I
haven't I mean, you can skim bed those as well,
but I haven't really seen much benefit to doing stuff
like that.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Gotcha? Gotcha? Okay, Well we're gonna jump into some listener questions.
Those are brought to you by Pendleton Whiskey. They sponsor
our question and answer segment. And so I just made
a post like I say, a lot of these the
interest and.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
That Pendleton these bought me some of that I think
the directors are reserved last couple of years from my birthday.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
That's I'll give it out of the plug.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Nice. Nice, there you go. Yeah, yeah, no, they they've
been great partners with us, and they sponsor this little section.
So we're gonna throw quite a few listener questions at you.
And like I said, that was really what sparked us.
I was getting a lot of questions that I wasn't
really comfortable answering, and so I just kind of pulled
my my Facebook page and you know, so we're gonna,
we're gonna go through this. So Colton Stevens asks how

(16:29):
many grains or powder? And what's your bullet weight? And
so this is I guess I can say what mine is,
you can say what yours is. Are what most people
should do. So I I originally had ordered two eighty
five grain furies from you. They used to be two
hundred and eighties. I believe ordered the two eighty fives.
And of course, once again I go back to the
internet reading and they're like, oh, not that the two
eighty fives are inaccurate, but people tend to have better

(16:50):
luck with the three twenties, like flying more consistent so
I that's why I called you guys up. Hey, I
just put an order and I think it's wrong. Can
you send me the three twenties or can we we
redo This'm shooting a three hundred and twenty grain universal
fit Fury, which we're going to get into that universal
fit here in a little bit. I want to ask
all of questions about, like, you know, bullets that are
fit to the barrel, how you how you accomplish that?

(17:11):
But mine was the universal fit. It's got a little
plastic disc on the back of the fury, and I'm
going to speculate. Luke can correct me if I'm wrong.
It's probably slightly oversized so that it can fit everything
from like a five OHO two barrel down and it
probably deforms us a little bit as you're loading it,
so it makes sure to get that gas seal. Is
that correct?

Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah? Okay, yeah, that's correct.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
And then I'm shooting black Horn two O nine and
I'm shooting one hundred and six grains by weight, And
once again, I'm going to say it again, don't put
that in your muzzleoder if it's not you know, set up,
or it's not recommended with your breach for your gun,
and your gun can handle those type of pressures, but.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Mine as a manufacturers recommended Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
So that is that is a Remington Ultimate muscloader with
luke and arrowheads, upgraded breach and their ignition system which
uses a I'm using cc I two fifties, you can
use Federal two fifteens whatever, basically a large magnum rifle
primer in your guys' modules. And that's really all I
have done to the gun.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, and like you, you're seeing great accuracy out of it.
Out of that, I mean, what we've really found is
a lot of the factory mussloaders out there, Remington Knight, you.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Know, build a good, good mussloader.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Like the barrels are generally very accurate, Like where they're
often deficient is the ignition system. So we you know,
that's that's where if you get one hundred percent seal,
you know, you're really setting yourself up for success. And
then the the where where I see most people run

(18:52):
into issues is actually with what the projectile they're fitting
to the barrel. Like every you know, I think all
with all the bullet makers out there, at one point
or another, I've sold like an easy loading bullet, and
that's not necessarily like it's convenient, it's easy to load, right,
but it's not necessarily going to give you your best accuracy,
especially as you move into the higher performance realm where

(19:15):
pressures go up like you're not you're not going to
get consistent engagement into the rifling and the barrel, which
is going to cause accuracy issues.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah. So the next question is from Neil Rico and
you'll probably all to answer this better than me. I
I do have one. I've shot this Fury three twenty
at ELK this year had a complete pass through right
to the lungs, and then last year I used the
Federal borlock one of those bullets. It's very easy to load.

(19:46):
But then once you realize that it's probably because it's
way undersized and we're probably not touching a whole lot
of the rifle, you know, and then in your accuracies
probably going to go down. But what what have you
seen just from in you know, in field results, you know,
good bullets for ELK, you know, larger sized game.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, I mean in the you know, if going to
the fifty cal. You know, if if you can get
them to shoot the thor the thor solid coppers are good.
I mean, I think that's just a barn's bowl with
the you know, the base milled out. Uh, the furies
are good. Fury uses a bonded He's got some process
where he actually kneels the copper and bonds it so

(20:27):
they they still expand easy, but it's the leads bonded
to the coppers they hold together. Well. I've heard really
good things about the new Hornity boar drivers. I haven't
actually actually, my buddy over Preston over there at Hornity
just sent me a bunch of the fifty and the
forty fives to play around with. That's another bullet kind

(20:47):
of similar to the boarlock where it with those, you know,
they are a looser fit, but that sub base kind
of crushes down and then the cop like makes up
for some of the space.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
So we've we've.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Actually had really positive feedback from customers using those with
you know, black horn you can't they can't handle smokeless pressures.
And most of the most of the states where you're
hunting with those bullets anywhere way, smokeless isn't going to
be legal. But it really comes down to a lot
of times with shot placement right with these these bullets,

(21:20):
because you're you're slinging a big chunk of lead. Uh,
you know, even if it done, I mean you wanted
to disrupt a little bit, but I mean most of
the bullets out there will do a halfway decent job
if you hit the animal where you're where you're supposed to.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, back to my my old days of mussli or hunting,
you know, we were shooting a lot of like tune
and forty green hornady, you like hollow points. And what
frustrated me and why I ultimately went to a barn's
there towards the end of you know, muzzled or hunting
with with my old my old school setup was I
would never ever get an exit and blood trailing in

(21:56):
the Pacific Northwest, you thick timber. You know a lot
of time for shooting these things in the timber. You know,
you got needles on the ground and you just had horrible,
horrible blood you know, trails, It was just they were
non existent, and so you know, even the borlock being
a solid copper, but then they opened really quick. So
I was almost want like a copper that almost didn't
expand to the point where it stopped, like I wanted

(22:16):
that second hole out of it, But I say the fury,
and I don't know. I did make a longer shot
on my bowl here this year with that Fury three twenty,
so maybe it didn't get the chance to expand because
the bullet was slowed down, but it it punched, you know,
a good hole. You know, the entrance hole, of course
on a fifty is going to be fifty. And then
on the exit we had a you know, probably a
two inch hole and it performed really well what I

(22:39):
would consider extended ranges.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
That sounds like perfect performance to me.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
But it may have been because that bullet was slowed down.
If I would have hit that elk at one hundred yards,
we may have had you know, there may have been
less chance of it coming out. You know, it's it's
hard to tail. Yeah, you know, I'm relating it back
to like my burgers and stuff as that I should
on my rifles. I'm going to get a I'm going
to get a pass through at four hundred more likely
than I am at one hundred, you know, just because
that bullets slowed down and it's not being violently like

(23:05):
ripped apart from the jacket. But yeah, I've got one
one year testing. I'm one of those guys that doesn't
want to make my judgment yet until i've got more
you know, different yard different yardages. But I did loan
my gun to a buddy that that killed an Elk
one hundred and twenty five yards and they still got
a great pass through, you know as well, so that

(23:26):
the bullet seemed to be good for ELK. I don't
know if that answers your question, Neil, but you know
we're best for Elk is always subjective, but I you know,
and then what's the other? Is it Pearson bullet? Also?
Are those the other like border fit that people, you know,
the guys that get into shooting the longer ranges? Is it?

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Well, so we we have our own line of bullets
for the forty five and forty cow and that's you know,
we're not using there's no sub base. It's just a
copper lead core bullet. So the fit has to be
much more precise for you're actually getting into a you know,
with with our customs, with the barrel diameters can controlled

(24:04):
closely enough to where we can sell pre size bullets.
But like if you have a CVA Paramount forty five
kel or something. You're probably going to need to buy
a sizing die and actually run the bullets through that.
And the sizing dies are adjustable, so you can tweak
the fit of the bullet to your barrel and get
that precise fit those So there's there's a you know,

(24:26):
with with our bullets, it's a aluminum tip.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
It almost looks like a horn of the a tip
style bullet. We've gone thinner on the jacket more. They're
more going to be in that burger style where they're
you're you're going to get some expansion at distance, but
more likely to have a pass through at distance versus
you know, two or three hundred yards where they're going
to be more frangible.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Just for conversation's sake, like out of your smokeless and
you guys, is you know forty five's or even the
smokeless how fast are you guys pushing those bullets typically.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
So like twenty eight hundred. I mean some of our
are like we'll we'll build some more like land cannons
for the guys in the Midwest or just going to
a box line, but you know, sometimes will be north
of three thousand feet per second with a three hundred
grain bullet out of those, God.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
I don't want to I don't want to shoot that
thing without a muscle break on it. I don't think.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
No, they're they're they're vicious.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
I occasionally get the guy that that wants it without
a break and I'd say about ninety percent of the
time those end up back in the shop get a
break on after they get them.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
So yeah, uh, in my load development, the guy that
runs our range, the local gunsmith here, he was out
there and he's seen that I pulled that muzzliter out
and we're gonna do some load testing, and he's like,
I was about ready to go home, but he's like,
I couldn't not, you know, get the entertainment out of this.
And so even that three and twenty green bullet going right,

(26:01):
you know, like I said, right around twenty one hundred
feet per second. Like I'm a big guy. I'm six
three two fifty, not that that makes you tough or not.
But by time fifteen shots was done, like I would
say about shot six or seven, like it was physical discomfort,
and by like shot ten or eleven, like it was
starting to get painful, like physically painful, like a grown
man hitting you in the shoulder as hard as he

(26:22):
could every time. I'm like, this is not fun.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, I will say, I've know this and maybe some
of it is just my body's losing feeling and I
just don't know this is as much anymore. But the
newer stocks with like a negative comb where the stock
isn't smashing your face as much. Like I'll go and shoot,
you know, twenty or thirty shots, maybe even forty some days,

(26:45):
depending on how many guns we have to test fire,
and I don't I don't feel it nearly as much
as I used to. You know, my face used to
ache and all that stuff. So I think, you know,
thankfully there's been some advancements that way that help help
with with that.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
But yeah, they do. They do beat you up pretty good.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, is is do this like on the rifles? Do
the stalks, do the discelerator pads like do any Does
any of that matter or is it just it's gonna.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, I mean, I I mean I've I bought some
fancied like almost like a lead sled back in the day,
and you know, it may be helped some, but it
was it was kind of cumbersome, especially when you had
a half dozen guns to shoot. So I kind of
just you know, I bought the kick easy shoulder pads
and stuff and at some point like recoils, just recoil.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Think that you know, the muzzle breaks help a lot,
and the better stocks like now, now, I would say,
you know, we have a lot of you know, my
buddy takes his ten year old kid out there every
year and he smokes a deer with with one of
our full power loads. So you know, it's much more manageable.
Like you were, I think you were running yours without
a break.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, yeah, I'm yeah, I might. We might be talking
after this podcast and get my guns sent to you
and they're at least sent to you, and get one put
on and then you know, we'll talk about that a
little bit. But you know, then you have to do
like the pour through funnel, right, so you're not losing
powdered through the break. And yeah, that's something I definitely
need to do. The only problem is, and I have
the same issue with with my my high powered rifles,

(28:19):
is it seems like something happens fast and I don't
have time to get my hearing protection in and I
pulled my trigger more times and I carry to admit
without hearing protection in. And that's something I need to
get better at or have, just like the you know
we around here we call them just like the loggers,
you know, hearing protection just the orange wrap around your neck,
you know, the plastic connector and then you can throw
them in real quick and if nothing else take you know,

(28:42):
twenty twenty five decibels off the high end, it looks
like on muzzlers. I try to do some research just
because I'm in the process of order in a silencer
for my seven short action ultramad because that's my main
you know, hunting gun. But there are some cans for
these muzzlers, but they are huge, and I don't think
anybody wants necessarily hunt with them and you're in a
ground blind or not moving a whole lot.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, well, I started doing it back when I was
in Iowa, so probably eight nine years ago. I had
a silence co Hybrid. Actually I still have that suppressor.
It's a it's a great kind of all around suppressor.
But yeah, you can. Yeah, they do.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
A good job.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like I'm not sure you know, if you have if
you were in the Western state and running black Horn
two a nine, you would definitely want one that you
could fully disassemble.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Just for for cleaning purposes.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
But one of the issues I ran into back in
Iowa was that it actually traps a lot of heat
and condensation in the bore. So if you're not removing
it every time and it's humid out like, you will
soak your powder if you're shooting a bunch.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
So I I.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
You know, if you're you know, if you're just looking
the high volume shoot at the range, it's probably not
the best option. But you know, for hunting it is nice.
But for me it's it's probably easier just taking the
airplug uggs versus uh, you know, dealing with the hassle
loading through loading through a suppressor on the muzzleborder.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah. So John McCarty is asking what is the ideal
effective range? And these are all subjective for shooting an
elk with a muzzlater in our opinion, and it depends
on your system, right, because you have a gun that
might be super accurate out the six or seven hundred
and have plenty of energy where my you know gun
set up for Washington, may you know, I might say

(30:29):
I could probably shoot one at this distance, but you know,
and it depends on how good you can shoot the gun. Yeah,
how good your load is, you know all of that.
But I set and I haven't told anybody this because
some I not necessarily embarrassed of it. I just don't
want people saying, oh, you can't hunt, so you had
to shoot, you know, But like I had, we've talked
about this, Like I was consistently hitting an eight by ten,

(30:52):
you know, three shots in a row, eight by ten
target at three hundred and thirty yards. Our our yardage
hears all set up in meters because of some competition shooting.
They do. So if you're at three hundred year really
at three thirty, you're at three hundred meters, you know,
hit that little eight by ten every time, you know,
dial my scope down, down, my scope back up. My
My clicks were consistent, and so I had set on

(31:14):
an ELK three hundred and fifty yards. As long as
I can get a rest and make a good, comfortable
shot like that was my limit. The energy chart showed
that we were still above I think we're somebody can
run the numbers on me. I think we were still
above two thousand foot pounds at that three fifty range
maybe a little bit less. We didn't go like under
the speed of sound until like four to fifty. So

(31:35):
I was just like looking at the chart, like where
am I very you know comfortable blove line?

Speaker 3 (31:38):
How?

Speaker 1 (31:38):
How good can I shoot? How you know, can the
bullet and the energy you know, handle and work at that?
So I had set mine at three fifty and that
was on perfect conditions because of the one X scope.
You know, where you might be able to say seven
eight hundred yards with the with the right build, you know,
and the right win. The other thing is comfortable conditions,

(31:59):
is you know, being a long range rifle shooter, if
you got ten especially on these bolts at water bcs
of two point twos to point threes maybe max.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, you're forty five, so I don't wind drift and feet.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah yeah, and you know these bolts are going slow
where you know on my three thirty eight edge or
my seven short action ultramag, I still have to read
the wind, but I can. I got a lot more
fudge factor in there. These muzzle orders, you missed the
win read by two or three miles an hour. Extended
range you're gonna just you know, you're gonna hit something
three feet off or you're just gonna miss.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, and then follow up shots as well are much slower.
Right if you you know, long range with a rifle,
if you're you know, you're on the gun and you
got to get buddy, that's a good spot. Or right,
you can have a you know, a round on the
way a second or two after the first one gets there. Right,
So it's yeah, it's I think there's there's really too

(32:51):
many different muzzlers out there to way too subjective to
give a number, like there's there's no substitute for you
figure out practicing with you're a gun as far as
like our are the effective range of our customs, you know,
we were talking about that maybe a little early in
this podcast or before, I can't remember, but you know,
energy wise, yeah, we're good the seventy eight hundred yards,

(33:14):
but wind drift calls, I mean we're talking I think
past like six hundred yards, like one mile per hour
wind is a moa of drift approximately, So no one's
good enough to call win that well. So yeah, I
really feel like four or five hundred yards is a
you know, ethical max for most people.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, okay, so this one and I don't know how.
We talked about this a little bit before too. Like,
you know, we hear a lot of Northwest compliant muzzies,
you know, Northwest compliant muzzle orders. We seem to be
we seem to kind of hold onto that traditional as
long as we could, and now some of the laws
have allowed us to to kind of get through that.
But when looking at Northwest this comes from Blake Lions.

(34:01):
When looking at Northwest compliant muzzies, what should you be
looking at? You know, are you looking at the Remingtons
now that they're legal? The Knights? Like who's making I
guess who's making good?

Speaker 2 (34:10):
I mean, I mean Northwest compliant. I take that to
mean like Oregon and Idaho as well. I mean that's
more so, I don't even think Washington really falls into
Northwest compliant, well not anymore. Yeah right, So, I you know,
I'm definitely not the guy. You know, it's probably been

(34:30):
twenty years since I've really messed with you know, quote
unquote Northwest compliant muzzloaders. So I you know, when I
get that question, I usually send guys towards towards night,
Like I think they probably make the best Northwest compliant
muzzloaders and you're just not gonna get you know, I've
I mean going back twenty years ago. Maybe there's some

(34:50):
improvements out there that I'm not aware of, but I
feel like a percussion cap type muzsloader is a you know,
one hundred, one hundred and twenty five yard type weap yep.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
And uh, you know, back back when we were I
guess back when my state, Washington was Northwest compliant type,
you know, we had some guys shooting you know, some
Ruger made a muzzler there for for a little bit
that did really well. Yeah, there were some guys shooting
those around here. You had a lot of the night
guys that had the double safety and so many guys

(35:22):
had the bad stories of not like twisting that safety
and missing a shot or not that safety backed out.
So we had a lot of those or I guess
you had to screw it forwards with the firing pin
actually hit and then like I remember, I ran because
Traditions back in the day, and all the local gun
shops or you know stores would sell like a Northwest
conversion of a Traditions which was had a little longer

(35:44):
barrel already kind of came like muzzle broke, you know,
just spiral fluted muscle break and you know, some stuff
like that. But uh, and you know all and I
may be wrong, but I believe all of those states
allow black powder black powder substitute, so you still could
run black horn too nine if you wanted something a
little cleaner, maybe a little more performance out of those.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
Yeah, I think I think you're gonna have.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean that I have a really hard time getting
blackhorn to a nine to ignite consistently with a percussion cap.
And even we we run into it pretty commonly with
with guys using Blackhorn two a nine with a shotgun
primer system where they go grab the muzzleoader specific shotgun
primers and that those are actually a reduced power charge.

(36:31):
I think it helps with fouling with with Pirate X
and Triple seven. So with Blackhorn, you really either need
to be using a large rifle magnum primer system or
Federal or CCI magnum shotgun primers, not the standard ones.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Gotcha just to get that Blackhorn to ignite. So that's
good to know. Like maybe if you're forced to use
percussion caps or musket caps.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
They stand away from blackhorns, not for you.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, so in that case, I mean there's lots of
you know, you got the the white hots, You've got pyroecks,
You've got all these different pellets. Now, like, is there
one that's better than the other or at the point
where you're not gonna be able to shoot farther than
one hundred and twenty five one hundred and fifty yards, Like,
is there any advantage? Have you been messing around with
a lot of these powers.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's where I'm so far removed from that because I've
just made the choice as a business to focus on
the higher, higher performance stuff. Like you know, I think
there's some really good threads on rock Side and some
of the the other forums. If you if you're going
down that rabbit, well, I'd probably send you the wrong direction.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
No, I appreciate you being honest there. And this was
a question I had, but Blake Lyons also kind of
asks this. And it's very important to us here in
the Northwest because we do usually by time mid October
rolls around, we don't have good weather. We're hunting the rain.
We're hunting our rain gear. Tips for keeping powder or
primers dry, Like, are you just a guy that like, hey,

(37:53):
put like a small you know, water balloon over the barrel, Like,
what's what tips?

Speaker 3 (37:57):
Because I like on.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Ours, I'll electrical tape them suzzle. Uh you know, we're
blowing enough gas out where that that tape's coming off
before the before the bullet gets to it. And then uh,
you know, since our ignition system one hundred percent seal
you know, at a full pressure muzzle or load, my
assumption is like a spent primer module in the breach

(38:19):
is going to because we don't generally in the West, right,
we're not walking around with a with a primed loaded
right or you know, a chamber ground prime buzzleoader. So yeah,
I'll just drop a spent module in there to help
seal the breach. And then I mean that that's been
very effective, uh doing it that way. Actually, the the

(38:40):
most most common misfire we have is is actually like
the first round after somebody cleans where they you clean,
load it up and go hunt. And with the idea
with black horn, right and especially definitely smokeless is noncrosis.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
You can you can.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Hunt on a on a fouled bore, but yeah, oil
is I mean, it just does not take much oil
or why you should misfire. So we actually see you know,
more issues from that necessarily than than people hunting in
the rain. So we're always hunting on the foul boar
here at least a couple of shots to burn off
any any cleaning solvent.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah. So back when I was young, I remember my
dad like after I clean my muzzle or like go
out and snap a couple of caps off, Like does
that get the oil or does that even do anything
with the oil?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
I mean it might burn off that water like we
used to clean them in the bathtub or bucket of water. Yeah,
it definitely is not enough to clear out oil residue.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
So if you do, if you do want to clean
your gun, go back out to the rain, shoot a
couple more times, and then keep it like semi clean,
yeah for a little bit. Yeah, okay, yeah, and then
so when we clean these things, I'm going to add
on to Blake's questions when we clean these things, like
should we put gun oil down them after black horn
or should we just like clean them dry and then
run a bunch of dry patches through versus a solvent?

(39:58):
Or should you put a layer of oil in them
and just know that you're gonna have to shoot that
out next year.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, I mean, if a long term story storage on
on a muzzloader, I like to, you know, run a
couple oil patches definitely before I put it away. I like,
strike hold it's a solvent. They're like a lubricating oil.
We use a bunch of that in the shop. It
kind of dries, dries off and just leaves a film.

(40:25):
So that that's that's one I like for for us preventative.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
But yeah, I'm.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
I'm just not like I don't trust patches enough in
a muzzloader too. If I'm heading to the range, I'm
not you know, I'm I'm not worried about it, right,
But if if I'm on a hunt, I'm only trusting
it if I'd actually fired off a couple of shots
and I've burned everything off.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
So back to that, just just for my own knowledge,
is do do does point of impact move on a
muzzloader from a clean shot to a couple of shots.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
We see it on our on our customs for sure.
I mean every you know, every load combo is going
to be different. But yeah, we uh with with blackhorn,
we actually see a velocity spike on the clean barrel.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
There's there's less friction.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
I guess it speeds up so well, generally we're about
one one and a half m a high on a
clean boar versus versus a folage boar.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, That's where I was at because I had to
I shot my gun, had to leave on a new
Mexico archery all count and then come home and just
pick it up. And I was worried should I clean it?
You know, I know black horn is supposed to be
non corossive, but it just being an old school pirate
ex guy like, I need to clean this thing. Yeah,
And we just kind of left it dirty for three
or four weeks and then loaded it because I was
scared to clean it because I didn't want my first shot,

(41:44):
you know. So I was in that battle of do
I clean it they go and shoot it again or
do I just you know, and and the guy that
runs the range and you're always trying to take advice,
he's like, oh, as long as the bullet still goes
down the boar, you're good. And I'm like, all right,
you know, just keep shooting until the bullet doesn't go down,
and I'm like, I don't know if that's great advice,
but it worked in the gun. You know, still still
hit where it needed to even four weeks later. But

(42:05):
I've always wondered, you know, if point of impact moves tremendously,
and that's something I just haven't had enough time on this.
I guess next year when I go to shoot it,
I'll find out on a clean barrel, like how close
is it to still be insided in? Yeah, you know,
and then I'll have more time on it. But yeah,
I elected to just keep hunting with it, like twenty
shots in dirty and I And that's where I don't know,
is there is there a number like ten shots is

(42:27):
extremely fouled or is it like a custom built rifle
where And maybe you have different advice than I've been told,
But I haven't cleaned my custom rifle since like the
first ten shots through them that you know, until they
start shooting bad, like don't touch your rifle barrel.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, it was funny conversation, right.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
I was just over on the Go Hunt podcast and
kind of laughing with Brady because he's like clean my
gun every range trip guy, and you know, I don't.
I don't have that kind of time, so I'm more
in your camp where I'll usually clean my rifles like
once a year, you know, is where I'm at. As
far as cleaning goes with black Horn. Really, it kind

(43:05):
of you know, after first couple of shots, you kind
of hit us, you know, a steady state with maybe
just some slight increase in following as it goes on.
So generally I haven't really seen of accuracy drop with
black Horn either, it's just at some point, like with
with the very universal fit or the barlock, where it
can accommodate some bore diameter variation. You may never run

(43:28):
into a situation where it's too hard to load. On
our customs where it's you know, it's not as nearly forgiving.
We're generally seeing like ten to twenty shots and then
it gets hard to load. So we'll do it as
a solvent patch and a couple of dry patches just
to knock the following down.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Gotcha, and you're good to go again without a complete cleaning.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, I end of the year is really the only
time I do a complete like straight down clean.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah. No, I'm gonna roll my question right on the
end of Lakes, because the way this podcast is going,
we're probably gonna not get not get out of these
listener questions. So on on the cleaning, do you recommend
removing the breach for a full cleaning or do you
just run?

Speaker 2 (44:13):
I mean, I don't think it's super critical, but I've
seen them, you know, over the years where they just
get locked in, and I mean on our it doesn't
hurt anything to pull it out, and then you know
you at least broke that carbon crubt once a year
is so you know maybe in five years when you
have a misfire and you need to to pull that
breach plug, you know you can do it.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Okay, Yeah, And that's I pulled my breach, ran a patch,
two or three patches from the and I cleaned my
muzzlo or backwards. Compared to a rifle, everything's going from
the action out the barrel. For some reason, on a muzzloader,
I clean them backwards, which maybe I shouldn't be, but
I figured, like if I took the breach out, I
would knock down like that shoulder that maybe develops in
there that I couldn't get if I didn't take it out,

(44:54):
get it completely cleaned and then on your guys' breach,
like it seemed to be very clean, Like I didn't
know if I should soak it and solve it. I
kind of looked at it, took a little pick to it,
and I'm like, there's not a lot in here, and
I just screwed it back in, Like do I need
to clean that bran?

Speaker 2 (45:06):
Yeah, there's not much much, especially with like black horn.
It black horn burns pretty clean, so yeah, there's there's
not much there to mess with.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Will there be some like noticeable signs coming up? Like
all right, something's going on with it? Like will you
see speeds go down?

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Will you see like no, I mean the only thing
over the years, Like I mean, it's pretty much a
zero maintenance system because you know, there's no the flame
channel is so short, like there's really nowhere for carbon
to build up in it. You know, the front of
the plug does have that deep recess and I got
a gun back from it. I'm not sure what he

(45:41):
was doing because I've really never seen it in any
other gun, but like that that recess was almost completely
carboned up, like there was a maybe an eighth of
an inch hole down through all that carbon, and we
you know, we just came in with the quarter inch
drill bit and drilled it out. So that's really the
only thing to look out for, is I'm in fact,
he was like doing some some patching and some solvent.

(46:04):
It started to get in there and build up or
I don't know what happened, but yeah, that's that's really
the only part to look for on it.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yeah. The only the only issue I've had with your system,
and it's one hundred percent user er, was when I
went to DP prime, I'm like, oh, number number two
show holder, let's use a seven mag primer punch, you
know in in my old RCBS rock Chuck press. And
I'm like, huh. So I reloaded them all and went
to put him, and I noticed that the flashole was
a little bit bigger. It opened it up a little bit.

(46:33):
But what happened is I had thought I had backed
it down to the point where it didn't start to
flare the end of the module. Well, then it was
too long or it flared too much, and I couldn't
get the dang bolta clothes. That's why I like, in
a panic, ordered all of those yea from you. I'm like,
I ruined whatever however many fifteen or sixteen I shot,
and so then uh, I'm I'm plugging Luke's business. But
definitely get like a little cheap DP primer tools. It

(46:55):
was better than.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Ruining the punch, Like I just yeah, Paton and say,
but yeah, it's funny, I get that, you know, we
get that call periodically, like I shot these, you know,
I shot the modules and they swelled now and they
won't go back in the plug. And I'm like, well,
that's that's physically not not possible, like your decapin on
your press.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
But yeah, yeah, I learned the hard way. I didn't
even think about it. And then really you use my
little hand primer and got them already, went back out
to the range and I'm like, god, thing won't shut.
I'm like, gosh, dang it. And I realized that I
had ruined them all. But no, Buddy Russell Porter's asking
he really likes your smokeless conversions. What are your favorite

(47:38):
powders and what are your favorite powders for some smokeless loads,
and then just how do they compare to a black horn,
to a nine or a triple seven? I guess performance wise?

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, I mean they're like, uh, I mean, obviously it
depends on what gun bowl away and you know, the
caveat and never used smokeless and a muzzle or that
stamp Blackhorn two A nine only. But we're we're more
in that Age forty one ninety eight uh h three
twenty two benchmark burn rate. And then some of the bigger,
bigger guns with you know, longer barrels that can burn

(48:12):
some powder. We'll use like Age forty eight ninety five
and that you know, that's will really ramp up the speed.
But as far as black you know versus black and triples,
I'm not I don't even really know. I've not messed
with Triple seven much like Blackhorn. Like we're we're in
that twenty five hundred feet per second range with a
three hundred grain bullet with black Horn, So it's you know,

(48:34):
anywhere from three to six hundred feet per second slower
than the smokeless gotcha, we actually accurate at What's that I.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Was gonna say? Does accuracy move? I mean, obviously they're
different nodes and you're yeah them, but like can you
keep them sless.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
Is more consistent?

Speaker 1 (48:50):
For sure?

Speaker 2 (48:50):
I mean, we'll still you know, we're still very subma
with blackhorn, but I mean we're one whole groups with smokeless,
and we actually do most of our are practicing for
our blackhorn hunts with with smokeless. We just downloaded to
match the blackhorn speed just because blackhorn has gotten so expensive,
so we yeah, and then it's cleaner and less expensive

(49:14):
and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
So gotcha.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
I mean, it's the same reason you know, you don't
see people using blackhorn two nine and modern center fire
kartuge trifles.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Right, it's not as ye smoke like, it's not as good.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah, it's just as good as it gets when it
needs to be legal or a substitute. Right, that's when
it shines. It's like, that's the best you can get
when it's got to be black you know, black powder
or substitute exactly. Yea. Our next question we kind of

(49:46):
answered already. We'll just all touch on it again. Zellen
Hessel Guesser was asking about the muzzy too on nions
versus shotgun two and nine primers, and you've kind of
already touched on that. It sounds like shotgun two on
nions are souped up and maybe two nines or maybe
de deperformed a little bit.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Right, Yeah, I guess something with the mechanics of igniting
triple seven. If you have a full power shotgun primer,
you'll get more carbon build up at that croud ring.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Gotcha. But you're saying, if you do want to elect
to run black Horn two oh nine, then you need
to go to that higher the magna, the actual magnium
shotgun primers, and stay away from the Muzzy two on nines. Correct.
And I haven't messed with you, so I'm gonna ask
a real ignorant question. Are they explicitly like on the packaging,
like these are Muzzy two on ninons versus these or

(50:36):
shotgun relok?

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Okay they are? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (50:39):
And that like the the two part numbers you want,
it's a federal two oh nine A or the C
C I two oh nine M.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Are the two.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Magnum shotgun primers you want, I'd recommend.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Okay, Dylan roan Ish, he's asking about two and nine
primers and his twelve year old night disc Extreme. We've
kind of already touched on that, like at some point
there's no big advantage in those guns, you know, unless
you're gonna switch to you know, Blackhorn two and I
and just for cleaning reasons and then you know running
that that that better primer. Right, Okay, this is one

(51:13):
of my questions. We kind of already touched on it,
Chad Tyler, Lee Hornery, just that cleaning frequency, shooting clean
versus dirty? How dirty? I wanted to just kind of
give him credit. It's kind of a question I've already asked,
But yeah, I do. I mean, so my cleaning we'll
go through one more time. My cleaning is I've got

(51:33):
a muzzle to rod, I've got patches specifically built for
a fifty col I've got specific Blackhorn two and I
and Solve, and I'm like, I might as well like
they that's what they recommend to clean it. When I'm
out at the range. If it's in between shots, I'll
maybe run, you know, one solvent patch down and it
comes right back up the barrel. I don't have to
take out my breach. You know, it's got a neurald
end on it. Two or three swabs, two or three

(51:54):
dry patches, and I'll continue to shoot. So that's kind
of what we talked about, kind of that dirty clean
I guess, yeah, bloading bullets and then it sounds like
we both break our guns down at the end of
the season. Do you have anything else to.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Add, Like, yeah, I mean a couple of tricks I
do or learned over the years is I use a
regular clinging or od and just a brush to patch with,
Like I find that is way more consistent on actually
getting the patch up out of the barrel than a jag.
So like a I'll use it in a forty five
I'll use a regular forty five col rifle brush and

(52:29):
just wrap my patch around that and like like you,
I'll go in you know for the quick and dirty,
just right through the muzzle, so that that's that and
then you know, we really I mean blackhorn isn't you
can use any solvent really for cleaning that right? It's
it's you can treat it like a regular rifle at

(52:50):
that point and where you can get into some issues
with some of the you know, black powder. Black powder
substitutes using regular solvents for it's more like water based,
I think, but we'll use I'll do like a fifty
to fifty mix with a ninety uh ice propyle alcohol
and hoppies number nine uh for my solvent. Patch just

(53:12):
to help that that solvent evaporate off a little better
if I don't get it all with the dry patch, gotcha?

Speaker 1 (53:18):
So yeah, because hoppies, if I remember it, that's a
very fairly corrosive like or it can be cross if
you don't get it back off right. So some people
say it's a hot solvent. Is that? Is that right?

Speaker 2 (53:30):
I've not I've not heard that. I actually only use
it for the muzzloaders. We actually switch to a bullet
while we retail it Bullet Central. I think is has
it branded? Is it's their line, but their thorough clean.
So we've started to use that for most of like
our deep cleaning and our rifle cleaning after we test
fire them and that that stuff's like magic, you know

(53:54):
strets that you know, it looks like a new bor
after you run run that through there in borescope.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
It perfect.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
But so uh, now we're gonna get in the little
We got a little bit of time left. Sorry, I
hopefully let me know if you've got a hard stop here, Luke.
I know you're a busy guy running a busy.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
However long we need to go, all right.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
So let's say I've just bought a Remington Ultimate or
I've got an old night and for some reason I
want to start to run. You know, bullet to boar type,
you know, a fit bullet, How do you go? What
is that process? Do you have a sample kit you
send somebody? Is there a way to measure it with
my micrometer? Like? How does a how does a guy
figure out if I've got a five.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Ozho one bore a fifty cal like I really don't
see any advantage to getting a sizing dye and going
straight up with the bullet to bar like the bullet
to bar in at fifty like fifty or pretty much
only running.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
I'm for l kunning. But you know that that bullet and.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
The bliss, like the bliss the available blistic coefficients. I
you know, we're we're talking guns that aren't rated for
smokeless two, so you're locked in the black horn like that.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
You're not?

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, so the you know, it's all about speed and
blistic coefficient right for and obviously accuracy, but you're you're
not going to find a higher BC full bore fifty
cow bullet to shoot than like the hornity board driver
or the Fury Like They're all going to be in
that that same uh, same class of BC. So so

(55:25):
at that point I wouldn't recommend buying a sizing diet
for a fifty cow to mess around with. I would
I would pick up one of those.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
Bullets and universal fits and just go on that.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Now you get into the forty five col you know,
that's that's where uh, you know you can you can
definitely get a ballistic coefficient bump going to the you know,
the lead the copper jacket lead core bullets like the
narrowhead XLD line. I think we're at like a point
four g one BC on our three hundred grain bullet,

(55:58):
So it's a you know, pretty pretty big jump over
like a power belt or the horn the hornity. I
think they're advertising that at point three one five g one,
which is is still really good for two hundred eighty
five grain bullet, you know historically, but it's you know,
it's a whatever, a twenty five percent hit over over

(56:19):
our three hundred grain uh and then you you you
can build the pressure, get your speed up more in
that full bore. But the process with that really is
really you can hoping, you know, buy We offer them
in a couple of different diameters. You can buy them
and hope you get lucky, but really the best way
unless you have a you know, an aftermarket like a

(56:41):
brock barrel or unbarrel, something that's cut rifle and has
held the dimension super close, or where our pretty size
bullets would work, you're you're going to be needing to
buy a sizing die, which the dye is adjustables. You
you know, you start pull your breech plug and just
start twisting to die down, running the bullet through on

(57:02):
your press or like a lead hand press, until you
get a consistent, easy, like firm one hand like you're
looking for about eight to ten pounds, so like the
palm of your hand on the ram rod is the
loading pressure you're looking for.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
And then depending on the ignition system, you know, like
a shotgun primer, you're probably going to benefit from a
wad like either a veggie wad or a wool wod
between the powder and the primer just to help with
the initial seal and then optraating. If you're with our
ignition system which is more efficient where you're using higher

(57:41):
pressure like blackhorn too a nine or or smoke lists,
you probably get away without the wad or that that
load's going to take off and snap seal that bullet
into the rifling.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Yeah, and so the bull I'm shooting is universal fit.
Is that basically that little plastic piece on the butt
of bullet, is that acting as the wad and ceiling
stealing everything up? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Yeah, similar to what I think it's the the I
I really haven't got too much into the design of those,
you know that that more like universal fit, so I
think it. But it does obviously it It acts as
a buffer, right, So it is similar similar to the watt.
I would say, maybe it's a little different in that,

(58:25):
like those bullets are designed to be super like you're not.
You're not getting any friction around the bullet like it
are very little, right, the primary amount is at the
base there, and it's a it's a much tighter fit
than are the wad we're using between the bullet and
the primer. But yeah, it's mechanics are essentially the same.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Luke, Is there any and maybe you don't know, but
is there any truth behind? Like you do a lot
of reading and then I actually called the day I
was talking to you, I called the the owner of
theory and he I want to be careful my words,
and so many people get to listen to this, but
basically I'm gonna take the cliff notes version is you
have to push some of these universal fits a little
harder because you get a little bit of a swell

(59:08):
out of them, or you kind of get that pressure
behind them and that forces the rifling, so the load easy,
but on the way out, they're actually going to swell
a little bit at the button start to touch. Is that, well, it's.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
An opteration I'm talking about, so where they generally speaking
on a on a universal fit bullet or like our ones,
where you're sizing them to the to the barrel, Like
the harder you run them, the more accurate they're gonna be.
So that that's where it is really important to follow

(59:40):
your you know, your manufacturers recommendations for safe loads and stuff,
because guys will start shooting and they're like it, you know,
just throw out numbers like ninety grains was good, ninety
five grains was better, and they're like, you know.

Speaker 3 (59:56):
It just loves it, so it must be fine. Like no,
it will.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Generally continue to shoot better the harder harder you run them,
just because they do need to get that kick to
bump out and swell into the rifleing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Gotcha, and and some of that just just brought up
an idea. You know, we always talk when we're reloading
or trying to find a perfect load for our big rifles.
You know nodes where it's all right, at twenty eight
hundred it's got really good, but then we can get
a different node at like twenty nine to thirty that
sits just as good, but in the middle it sucked.
As you're developing these loads, you're trying to figure out
what the right you know, because because I could like

(01:00:31):
I just went to I shouldn't even say this, but
you know, and I'm not claiming you, but between the
owner of Fury and I can't even remember his name,
or you and everybody on the internet, they're like, just
what the arrowhead breeches go to one oh six by way, like,
probably shouldn't have did that, but that's that's how I
did it. And then to be safe, you should have
maybe went.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
It well, I mean old Remington before they you know,
went bankrupt and all that. That was like if you
got someone on the phone that was their recommended max
for black Horn two A nine out of Remington Ultimate.
I mean, that's that's quite a bit more than than
the all you know, the recommended max you're going to
see out of some of the you know, the night

(01:01:10):
mussloaders and traditions. Right. So that's where you you know
that you just can't take a blanket load with blackhorn
and using it in every mussloader. Right. But uh, yeah,
that I mean, that's that's been a great, great load
with the fear of universal fits out of a out
of a Remington Ultimate. But I guess taking a step
back and talking about load development in muzzloaders, where we

(01:01:31):
see much more consistency across like all Remington Ultimates, we don't.
We don't even do load development in our customs because
you're you're getting rid of so many variables with a
muzzloader versus a rifle where you know, the bullets fit
to the barrel, there's no throat, there's no headspace, there's

(01:01:51):
no you know, neck tension, just all those handles you
have to twist on a center fire to get accuracy
are gone. So I could see like if if you know,
I've I've over the years, I've seen variation and lots
of powder, right, Blackcorn is notorious for that. So at times,

(01:02:12):
you know, if if you get a you know, if
you're if you're seeing something that doesn't make sense with
the load that shoots another guns.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
It might just be variation in the lot.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
But we're you know, we're buying eight pound jugs of
powder and shooting our guns out of there. So it
and there's no like every gun is basically the same.
So if if the load doesn't shoot in one gun,
it's it's not the load, like it's we built, we
did something wrong with the gun. There's there's just no
value in doing ladders and stuff like that. And you know,

(01:02:42):
especially a custom as a loader. So what I guess
so and generally like if if you do see like
a load like a fear a universal fit that shoots
really good in the Remics and Ultimate, you know in
most Remington Ultimates and you get one doesn't shoot good,
you may have run into a situation where it's not

(01:03:04):
Tweaking the powder isn't going to solve anything. You just
have a I see, the biggest issue is bore diameter variation,
where a looser fit or a tighter fit is gonna
skew things. So really you know, you may you may
be able to put a band aid on it by
tweaking the powder up or down, but really tweaking the
diameter of the projectile you fit to get a better

(01:03:26):
a better fit in the barrel is really the easy solution.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
You gotcha. So back to the load development. Let's just say,
you know, I buy a bullet, I buy some powder
you just mentioned, like they continue to probably shoot better
until you start to probably approach some pressure issues like
how how should a guy or a gal that's developing
a load, like what is that balance? Like should it

(01:03:51):
be recommended? You know, manufacturers recommendation max like don't get close,
you know, don't exceed that. I mean, that's obviously the
legal advice you're gonna give. Like how like like I'm
at one six by weight? Should I have tried one
of weight by weight? Because you know fur he says
it's okay. You know your breech is okay with it.
Remington's guns okay with it? Like is there? Should I

(01:04:12):
have tried it and see if it shoots better or
that much more speed? Or like how does how does
a guy determine like I need to stop?

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
It's I mean, obviously it's a legal answer, but it's
also just the I mean, really the common sense answer,
safe answer, just because there there really aren't the same
handles on the muzzloader to identify pressure. You know, I
think everyone operated under the you know, the old I
think growing up you probably heard that too, Like you

(01:04:40):
can't overload a muzzloader, right, It's just gonna blow the
unber powder out the end of the barrel. And that's
that's definitely not the case with with blackhorn to a
nine and obviously smokeless powder especially, but you you definitely
can over pressure with blackhorn. So yeah, foul follow follow
the manufact recommendations. I don't really see a ton of

(01:05:03):
value in doing like a load where like starting low
in the range and working up just because you're not
gonna there's no pressure signs to see. There's not like
a tight bore like you could run into at the center,
fires or brass case capacity all that stuff. So I
think you're generally fine going to the max or whatever

(01:05:24):
your manufacturer recommends.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Got And there's so there's you know, like like on
the high power rifles, you know, we get ejector marks,
we get primers bumping out, we get some signs like
on a muzzloader. There's nothing on your guys modules, nothing
on the old original Rimington modules, nothing on like a
shot done, you know, a two to nine disc. Like
you're pretty much just stuck with just having to run
manufacturer recommendations because you're not going to see any signs leading.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Right, Like our modules kind of look like a case
head where you can't actually you know, create pressure signs
on them.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
But generally that's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
Like way past asked where where the actually is because
the breach plug hides some of the some of the pressure.
That's it's not truly a rifle case type system. So yeah,
there's there's just not good handles to read pressure, gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Yeah, yeah. And then kind of my I guess my
last question. You know, bolt selection. We we we were
limited by laws a little bit, you know lead up here,
you know, jacketed for what we're doing, you know relatively
what I would call you know, in your world short
range muzzle loading, you know, two hundred yards and the like.

(01:06:36):
Is there any inherent like issue with running suppose or
versus power belts versus the borlocks versus like a barrel
fit type bullet, Like at some point like or or
do you believe, like suppose they're still not as accurate
as is some of these others.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
You know, talking about when I converted that savage send
mL two to forty five cal. Back in the day
I was, I was running a sabo, a two hundred
gree sst uh from hornety in a sabo, and I
shot some ridiculously small groups. You you run into two

(01:07:14):
issues you have to be aware of, Like, barrel heat
is a big factor. You know, a lot of guys
are doing their their look you know, they're testing and
stuff in August when it's one hundred degrees and uh,
you know, as the perform the pressure, the performance of
the muzzler goes up. But even uh, you know, more
conventional muzzleaders are slug guns. I think looking back when

(01:07:36):
I was in high school trying to get a two
hundred yard slug gun and doing a lot of my
shooting in July and August, I think I would I
can recall lots of times where i'd have to you know,
the first two shots print really close together, and then
the the third shot would be six inches off. And
I believe that was probably barrel heat disrupting the the

(01:07:57):
integrity of the SABO, but as long as long as
we actually I just talked to a customer yesterday that
was having ignition issues Remington's seven hundred mL they're they're
old muzzleload or using one of our shot and primer systems,
and he was using a Harvester Black crush rib, which

(01:08:18):
is a it was a great SABO, but he was
using the Barnes U T Easy bullet, which that bullet
I can anyway, I'll make it a short story. It
was an undersized bullet in a in a SABO that's
designed to load easy. So I think my guess is
it was probably taking them about one finger on the
ramrod to seat the bullet. And he had ignition issues.

(01:08:42):
But I was explaining to him like, even if you
were to get it to go bang like, your accuracy
would probably suck because your your fit was so loose.
So that's where it. You can definitely obtain great accuracy
with sabos. You just have to pay attention and you
might have to, you know, experiment a little that to
find the right save on bullet combo that fits fits

(01:09:03):
your bore.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Well, gotcha, Well, I think we went through all the
listener Q and as we made it and made it
about an hour. Is there anything else like we didn't
cover that's important? You know? We you know, triggers are triggers.
We've talked about ignition systems, like you say, when I've
I've been amazed just because I've been away from muzzloaders
for so long, and you hinted to it that we're

(01:09:24):
getting to the point where some of these muscloaters can
be as accurate and more accurate than some of these
high powered rifles just because you are taking away you know,
you know, case issues, you know, all these other issues
that are kind of taken care of. It's like it's
like the diesel versus the gasoline motor. Right, we took
a lot of this stuff apart, and it's easier to
work on, easier to diagnose, and maybe easier to get
to run at times. Is there you know what's next

(01:09:47):
for muzzloaders? Are we? Are we? There? Is there anything
else you want to talk talk about the matters that
we didn't cover here? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
No, I mean, I you know, I guess just you
know the one uh not even related to performance, but
I always like to throw it out there is you
know make sure you're using the witness mark on your ramrod.
You know, that's number one. I think safety issue with
muzzleloaders is guys double loading and a witness mark, which

(01:10:14):
if you don't know what that is, that's you know,
just a mark on your rod that's flush with the
muzzle when it's loaded, so you can identify a double load.
And every you know, everyone thinks I'll never do that,
but it's you know, you get on all the pilot
talking to a buddy or whatever. Definitely, uh, you know,
something to watch out for. But yeah, I mean as

(01:10:35):
far as we're muzzleloaters go next, I mean I think
higher BC bullets that are are less sensitive the bore diameter. Uh,
you know, is a big opportunity if someone can come
up with that. But it's you know, there's there's just
a whole you know, host of issues where overcoming that
and still being able to handle higher pressures and stuff.

(01:10:55):
So I mean, that's probably the biggest deficiency I see
right now, if you know, if even call it a deficiency,
biggest opportunity for making making them easier to shoot at distance.
But you know, it's it's kind I mean, like we
talked about it's crazy over the last decade, how you
know how fast the advancements have happened and where we're

(01:11:18):
at now, you know, if we miss any questions, I like,
you know, I like to do Sunday Q and as
once in a while on Instagram, so I'm pretty accessible
that way if somebody wants to hop on there and
watch out for that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Yeah, how else can they get ahold of you? Luke?
You we usually close up, but how do they get
a hold of you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
And yeah, we're yeah, we're on Instagram, Facebook, all that,
Arrowhead Rifles dot Com. Uh yeah, that's uh yeah, we're
on most of the inter webs.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
So you did bring I'm gonna I'm gonna ask another question,
even though we're past the part of clinic closing this up,
because you brought up the witness mark and you know,
growing up pirate ex pellets. You know your dad, my
dad was don't crush the pellets, you know. Yeah, So
there's this balance of you know, too tight versus do
you keep smashing it? Do you you know black horn
two and nine, you've got loose powder that should kind

(01:12:05):
of self level as long as your gun, you know,
is up, Like, is there a right or wrong answer,
Like should you is it kind of a should be
smashing the tip of the bowlt in there? You know
what's the right or should it just be like you
said that ten pounds down when it tightens out?

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Issue for a consistency. I mean there are guys that
have done studies, you know, experimenting, and you can't influence
your velocity and stuff by how hard hard you seat
the bullet. So I I think there's there's almost like
a Torter crunch gauge out there. There's one guy that
sells where they'll you know, pop when you hit a
certain pressure at the bottom. But I just go for it,

(01:12:42):
you know, consistent push at the end, trying to keep
that consistent.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Go to you, You're probably gonna be like just shake
your head. Mine's like you just kind of don't grab
the robbit. You just kind of like three little taps
but not very hard, just with like you know, one
finger on each side like a pencil and like three
taps and like I should.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Be good little uh, I'll make that joke.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Yeah, You're like there's three and then you're kind of
looking at your witness mark and you're like, I think
it's you're like, put your head down. I think it's
in the same spot as last time.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
And yeah, I mean that's so that's the thing with
Blackhorn is following metrically, it's super inconsistent, right, so you're
you're witness mark.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
I mean, it's it's close, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
It's kind of move slightly and that's that's where Yeah,
definitely Blackhorn is is better doing it by way.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
Yeah, yeah, gotcha. No, I really appreciate having you on, Luke.
Like I say, this is I feel like I know rifles.
I don't know rifles like any of you builders or
anything like that. I feel like I know them, but
like muszloaders are still kind of a mystery to me
because I'm just kind of getting back into taking advantage
of some of our seasons. So I really appreciate you
having you're having you on, you know, sharing your knowledge

(01:13:52):
and you know how people can get ahold of you.
And yeah, good luck with any other hunts you have
this year, and uh with the business, and and really
appreciate you're joining us here.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
Appreciate it. Yeah, it's alright, on fun catching up, all right,
take care of luc

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Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Ep. 110: High Performance Muzzleloaders with Arrowhead Rifles

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal