Ep. 140: Elk Tactics: 10 Questions to Be Better

In this episode, Jason Phelps takes on 10 of the toughest elk hunting questions every serious hunter should ask. From calling strategies and terrain tactics to handling hung-up bulls and the mental grind, Jason breaks down exactly how he approaches each scenario in the elk woods. With decades of experience and countless bulls called in, he shares hard-earned insight into what works, what doesn’t, and why. Whether you're a new hunter or a seasoned vet, this episode delivers real-world advice without the fluff. Tune in for a no-nonsense look at the mindset, methods, and moments that define elk hunting at the highest level.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today,
we're kind of switching gears, going full board into elk
from here on out. Just finished up a few turkey hunts,
just got back from Idaho on a spring bear hunt
where we had some success, and so we're ready to
kind of dive headfirst into elk. And this last weekend
I was able to do a elk calling seminar for

(00:32):
some veterans here in my home state of Washington, and
there was some great conversations, some great questions asked, and
so I figured I would dive a little deeper into
some of the things that we talk about regularly, but maybe,
you know, elaborate, go a little deeper on them and
see if we can't answer some questions there. But do
a little recap on the Idaho bear hunt. Was able

(00:53):
to go over there. My buddy Tyson had a tag
and was able to be the cameraman. Again. I remembered
how to turn the camera on and run it after
a little bit of time, but yeah, he was able
to finally kill a good boar. On day six of
what was a six day hunt. We seen twenty six
bears and the country just laid out not ideal for

(01:17):
killing bears, but great for spotting bears. So you could
spot bears all day long from a mile two miles away.
Going over there to kill them or be close enough
for a good shot was more difficult. And the few
times when we zoned in or honed in on the
highest density areas, we would seemed like always spot a

(01:39):
bear on the other side from where we were just
glassing from, decided to make a run over there. They
wouldn't be there. We would glass back where we were
just sitting there to be bears out there, and then
we would sit bears wouldn't show up. But finally, on
the last night we had spotted the bear that Tyson
killed the night before, went over there and just forced
ourselves to stay put, and that bear came out out.

(02:01):
He was on a mission to go check out us
south that had a cub down below us that we've
been watching for five to ten minutes, and he was
able to make a great shot at a one hundred
and fifteen yards and just you know, close tight bear
hunting is fun, you know, had to get the wind
right the way we came into that area, had to
get the wind right, and it worked out great one

(02:24):
thing I'm gonna I'm gonna go on a little tangent.
And we had a social post this last week. You know,
as we're driving in this area, you have a somebody
had nailed their own sign to one of the speed
limit signs area and said hunt your own state. And
it created a lot of a lot of back and forth.
Some people were pissed, you know from Idaho. Some people
were in support of it. And these are just gonna

(02:46):
kind of be my ramblings on it. I always just
wonder like where that comes from. I know people could
get frustrated. It is their backyard. They may feel I
don't want to say entitled, but they may they do
have more ownership of the area, the you know, maintain
the road all of that. But I always just kind
of scratched my head. We were there on a spring

(03:08):
bear hunt. Yes, we love hunting for what it is.
We love to help with predators where we can. In
the week we were there traveling all over, side by side, truck,
whatever it may be. We saw three other bear hunters
the entire time that we identified as bear hunters that
were like in Baar Country there were still Turkey seasons
going on and people hunting, and you know, it was

(03:31):
prior to Memorial Day weekend, so there were a lot
of people out on the weekend camping and you know,
but it was typically like young kids and dads and
moms just enjoying you know, the public ground, zipping around
on side by sides or whatever. So be it. But
we saw three other bear hunters and they were also
all from Washington, and so it was like, Number one,

(03:51):
we're over there. In my opinion, like, yeah, we get
the bear hunt. We love to do it. We would
do it if it was in Washington, Idaho, wherever. But
we're going over there to help kill predators, killing you know,
trophy bowls, trophy deer, you know, whatever it is. We're
over there to help with the predator problem that's not
even in our own state. Number one and number two,
it's like we're we're I guess there's a lot more

(04:14):
than number two, but we're up there, you know, hunting bears.
We're taking care of the ground. We we picked up
after many of these camps that we saw, you know,
whether it was just you know, water bottles or trash
rappers or whatever is. We're out and about. We take
care of the land, and well we do. We got
to talk to to you know, some a local and
you know, he had nothing but good information to share

(04:35):
and we got along great. And that's the thing like
these people that put up the sign, I'm sure if
we could sit down and talk and you know, have
the same amount of respect for each other, and if
you're hunting area, I'll leave. And if we can talk
before and if you're going to be there, you know,
what's your plan, we'll come up with a plan. B
It's just I just I always just kind of scratch
my head. We're only allotted ten percent of the overall

(04:57):
tags anyways, so it's not like unless that ten percent
can overwhelm a unit, which I don't believe it can.
I mean, I guess if everybody ended up in the
same exact spot that you wanted to hunt, it could,
But we're we're only given a certain amount of tags
that I do remind you costs ten times as much

(05:17):
as what you're paying as a resident to help fund
the last time I checked sixty percent of your fishing game.
I just I've always felt like I'm respectful of of
who's there, who is a resident, who isn't and it's
just it always just kind of I don't know. I

(05:38):
would like to just talk to those people and be
able to like, what do you what are you really
getting at? Is? Are you struggling to find success? Is
that why you're frustrated? Are you know? Some people say,
I know Dirk has mentioned multiple times, well, you know,
guys from Washington over and shoot a bunch of two
and a half year old bucks. That is where it
kind of struggles. You know, what's what's what's legal, what's not,

(05:58):
and then trying to judge that, yes, I go over
there with certain you know, I'm trying to get something,
you know, specific out of a hunt, and whether that's
killing a mature animal or something of a certain caliber
of a certain age class, that's gonna be tough to
monitor and hopefully you know that almost falls back on

(06:19):
on the biologists in the area. The the amount of
tags given overall, and once again even on deer and
oak tags you only allowed ten percent is uh is
one of those things where you know, you it's going
to be tough to to manage that through whatever is legal,
you know, if there's a horn, you know, a point

(06:40):
restriction or or whatnot. And then the amount of tags
given out. And I would venture to say it's not
just out of state hunters that are, you know, killing
immature bucks. Uh. You know, me and me and Dirk
going we have a little battle of like back and forth, like, well, hey,
did you see the residents that just killed and and
And I don't get caught up in that too much. Yeah,
it could have. It could affect, you know, the age

(07:02):
class in an area. But I just I think it's
happening on both sides, and good and bad people can
be on both sides, you know. And in the comments
of this, it was, you know, well I had a
non resident. I was sneaking in on a bear. I
was five hundred yards away, waiting for a better shot,
and somebody shot eight hundred yards away at the bear

(07:23):
that I was. I'm like, but that doesn't necessarily that's
not because they were non resident. You could have just
as easily had a resident that thought that they were
capable of shooting that far or do the same thing,
And so I don't necessarily. My closing thought on this
is it's not necessarily non resident versus resident. It's good
people versus bad people, or ethical hunters versus non ethical

(07:44):
regardless of what states. There's good apples, you know, so
to speak, no pun intended on people from Washington. There's
good apples and there's bad apples. Right from every state.
There's people that are going to push the issue, be
overly aggressive, not being willing to talk to other hunters,
not be able to work together. No, No, that's not
saying I'm not gonna maybe fifty of what I'm actually saying,
but I'm not gonna like lead you astray or tell

(08:05):
you I'm going into area that you that you might
want to go into because I want to go in
there tomorrow or the next day. Like, there's just good
people from every state, and there's bad people from every state.
And it's like, I just I don't like the idea
of if I had my kid with me, Like, well,
what go hunt your own state. I'm like, well, I
do when I can, but I also love to hunt
other states. And you know, getting all getting all soft

(08:27):
and mushy in my old age. I'm to the point where, yeah,
I love hunting animals, I love hunting good units. But man,
it is awesome to be able to hunt my home
state of Washington. It's absolutely beautiful here especially when you
get into the cascades and some of the rainforest areas.
I love being able to see that. I love also
being able to go to Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico,

(08:47):
wherever it is, and just enjoy the same public ground
that you guys get to enjoy, that you guys have
taken care of, that you guys have made you know
that you guys are somewhat stewards of And then when
I go there, I hope to be a good steward
of the property, take care of it as well or
better than you do, and just get to enjoy the
animals in the in the country that's there. And so
that's man, I know, it's everybody beats that drum, you

(09:10):
know in fighting residents versus non residents. Like man, we
all we all love to do the same thing, and
if we could all sit down and chat about it,
I'm sure we would all, you know, see eye to eye.
Albeit you know, you may want more of your your
backyard to yourself, it is, it is public land. And
so that's that's my rambling. I'm gonna get back to

(09:33):
these these elk questions that kind of were spurred from
from that seminar I did the other night. So Number one,
we started to kind of dig at scouting habits and
what's my go to strategy for locating elk and unfamiliar country?
You know, how do I go about breaking down new
train and what do I look like? What do I
look for while I'm scouting? So, as I'm recording this,

(09:55):
it's early June. If I was to go scout, you know,
the weather starting to get better some of these areas
that I hunt, as the snow is finally melting. We're
finally starting to get access to some of these higher areas.
But maybe the elk haven't moved in there, or they're
not where they're going to be when the rut gets here.
So what would I look for now if I'm going
out scouting. Yeah, I will always look for the animals.

(10:17):
But what I like to do is if I'm scouting,
let's say a spot in western Washington where we don't
necessarily have any sort of migration, the elk are local
all the time, they are where they are, I can
now start to put a little more credibility into where
the elk are at. Like that may translate more to
hunting season in September, I can start to see where

(10:38):
scouts at, where tracks are at, where trails are at now,
Versus if I'm in a mountainous region where these elk
do have to migrate down and migrate back up, I
may not care where I see elk at the beginning
of June. They may continue to move for the next
month month and a half as a snow line allows
them to move up, or the food you know their foods,

(11:00):
or changes from a lower elevation to a high elevation,
and maybe if we have really dry summer, they may
be pushed back down. So I'm really I'm really not
looking for like what I would consider live elk sign
you know, scat fresh scat, real elk fresh tracks, those
sort of things this time of year to help me
as an archery elk hunter, I'm starting to look for

(11:22):
where the rubs. Do we have rubs in an area?
Can I identify this as like a betting area? Is
this are these rubs that you know are a transition
from good food to a betting area? Like why are
the elk rubbing here? And you know you're looking for
concentrated areas of rubs. I'm not looking for that one
or two you know, single or double rub here or

(11:44):
there or along the trail. I'm trying to find out
where like and you know, bowls at that time of
the year are spending a lot of time, so I'm
I'm looking for that, uh is you know, if if
trail cams are legal in your state or you can
hang them, I start to hang them on good food sources,
water sources. You know, we used to be able to

(12:06):
bait and I don't even I don't even know the
legality assault. I'd have to look at that like we
used to put out salt to to you know, is
they need that mineral, you know, to to gain more
pictures in an area. A lot of people want to
see the bulls on their camera in an area, and
you can do that, but I will advise also as
you're scouting now, as it translates into September, those bulls

(12:29):
will likely leave and go towards the cows. So I
would just assume have cows on my trail camera and
not as many bulls. Now. It doesn't do me a
lot of good if I'm after something specific, but it
gives me a good idea probably where those the bowl
the cows and the herd is going to hang out
is the location where I've got cows on my camera.

(12:50):
You know, this isn't this isn't a true a rule
by any means, but it's you know, the bulls are
going to go ninety percent of the way, the cows
are going to go ten percent away. Where they're going
to end up are looking for a primary food sources
time of year without the requirement of trying to keep
calves protected, So the bulls can be in spots that

(13:10):
would be more vulnerable to predators because they're not going
to be you know, targeted as much. Now, cows this
time of year, as they break off, go single, try
to you know, rear their they're young, get that calf
to two to three weeks old. They're gonna break off,
and they're gonna be in areas that are more conducive
to raising their young, making sure that the young calf
doesn't get you know, eight on by a bear, cougar

(13:32):
or whatnot, so that that's some separate, you know, some
differences between the two. And then they will ultimately as
those calves get older more into the summer, they will
start to move into that best feed where that's available
that she can still continue to raise those young calves.
But yeah, that's that's my big thing on scouting, you know,
as I as I pre scout, kind of before I

(13:54):
go check out an area or an area, I want
to I'm looking for three things on whatever, you know,
I use on X a lot, I use Google Earth.
I'm looking for areas that have feed. I'm looking for
areas that have cover, and I'm looking for areas that
have water covers for escapement and for bedding. Obviously you

(14:15):
have to have good feed, and then elk have to go,
you know, be it water you know daily, if not daily,
every other day. Some nomadic elk and some desert regions, uh,
you know, have kind of been able to make it
a little bit longer. But you need those three things
and then to get to get like a higher priority
so you can have those three things. But then ideally
I'm looking for benches. Elk would prefer to, you know,

(14:39):
bed on something that's a little flatter, maybe a bench,
maybe a not as steep a country. So if I
can find some relief in the terrain, you know, if
the thing is straight up and down, but there's like
a little milder you know slope or a milder notch
or a little bit of a bench. I want to
go look at those to see if that's what the
elk are using. I want to have those in there.
I want to have I also like a good mix.

(15:00):
I don't want wide open sage. I don't want solid timber.
I don't want I want something with like a few
avalanche shoots. If I'm in the high country, I want
a few you know, subalpine or alpine type meadows. I
want some timber, and then as you get down in
the draw, I want it to be timbered, and then
in the middle, I want it to be like a mix.
I love those fringe areas, and those fringe areas allow

(15:24):
those elk to feed throughout the whole day. If needed,
they can feed with a little more security, they can
bed with a little bit more visibility. All of these things,
and ideally, if you can like have the ultimate spot,
I want some you know, some wallows, some hanging some
hanging water up on the slope, or some springs in
the area. That way they have is every the tighter

(15:45):
you can get all of those required things to cover
the food and the water together. The the the higher
it is on it ranks higher on where I think
I'll find out with more surety. So those are kind
of the things I look at before I jump into
an area. And I've did it long enough that I've
been able to put boots on the ground and typically
know that they're going to be out there. One last

(16:06):
thing I do is I get the best imagery I can,
and I will zoom in. Are there trails, Are there
trails that look like they're made by you know, one
or two bucks feeding, or are they you know, trails
from you know, herds of Elk? Are there historic trails
in here? I will sit and mess with the date
on on X, and I will go to September. I
will go, you know, just kind of just see what

(16:28):
I can see as as the mapping allows. And then
one thing that I do is is if I'm scotting
a new area, you know a lot of times you're
there in July and August and maybe people have hunted
there for a long time, and you don't really know
what's going to show up in you know, you don't
know who's going to be at the trailhead, you don't
know who's going to be in the area. Who's going
to be at the clear cut? Who's going to be
on that road? So if you can back up the

(16:51):
picture taking, you know, we're on x's dated pictures. Like
I love to go look at a picture in you know, September,
maybe go to Labor Day week and how many people
are parked here? Are they hunters? Are they? You know?
Can you tell? It just gives me an idea. If
I show up and there's twenty people parked at the trailhead,
I shouldn't have been surprised. Maybe I should have picked
a plan B. It's a busy area. You know, maybe

(17:13):
they aren't hunters, but maybe I don't want the traffic
in that area. So that's kind of like the last
little piece of me scouting. So I know really what
I'm getting into. I found the Elk and then what
my traffic's going to be like up there? Jumping into

(17:35):
question number two, how do I adjust my calling or
approach based on the bulls behavior? So I've I've mentioned
this a lot. You know, there are a lot of
guys out there that claim to know Elk language. And
if you do this, you need to say that and
this is what this bugle means. And this is what
this means. I'm not discrediting them. They can use that
to their advantage if they feel so, they can teach that.

(17:59):
I would argue that my you know, success and my
results speak for themselves, and it's it's tougher because I
don't necessarily want to brag or get into results or
numbers or any of that. I would say, this is
the way that I like to hunt. I like to
hunt on the bull's temperament or his behavior, and then
I respond to that. So, you know, if a bull's
being super aggressive and answering every call, I will continue

(18:22):
to kind of feed into that. Now, if if I
get in, maybe I get a bowl to respond. Let's
say he's less aggressive and he doesn't respond at beagle
two or three, or I move in tight and I
know he's there. I can either hear him, maybe sometimes
I can see them and and I we're just not

(18:43):
getting a response. I will now treat that bowl like
I need to turn the temperature up on him. Sometimes
you will not get the temperature to turn up. You're
gonna have to just call the bowl in with cow calls.
And so that's where my calling kind of changes. If
I've got an aggressive bowl, and I know he's aggressive,
he's answering everything. I will continue to continue on what
I'm doing. I will mimic the bull, I will walk

(19:05):
on all of his bugles, and I will I will
keep him cranked up, you know, essentially to the arrow.
I when I interviewed Brock from BYU on this, they
did enough studies, and this is where like all right,
the science and nowadays saying trust the science, that doesn't
you know, take it for what it's worth. But the

(19:26):
biology shows that bulls are built with different temperaments. They're
starting to see that bull a may be a lover
not a fighter, or or or to a different degree,
will be maybe a fighter not a lover. I've always
said bulls are out there in september to recreate and survive,
and sometimes being able to recreate and hold onto your

(19:47):
herd does require you to fight as well. So with
that said, if I've got a bull cranked up, I
will continue doing what I'm doing. That's that's the easiest scenario.
If that bull is answering everything you you you can
hear him closing the distance you have had to do
anything in particular or different. You've just got him, you've
got inside of his bubble, if you got inside of

(20:08):
his area, or you're too close to his cows. Those
typically are like the ideal situation. Now, if a bull's
playing hard to get or he doesn't really seem to
want to answer you, or he may answer every four
or five, you know, every four or five calls, then
I will start to tone it down. And I feel like,
by starting with cow calls, it's your least it's your

(20:28):
your lowest threat level, So you're you're putting the least
amount of pressure on that bowl to either tucktail and leave,
grab his cows and leave, or whatnot. So get tight.
Even if it is a herd bowl or a satellite bowl,
you're gonna want to start with col calls or I
will switch to cow calls once I think I'm tight,
and then slowly escalate it from there. You know, I'm

(20:50):
I'm not huge on small bowl beagles, but I may
go col call more into like a raghorn biegle and
then kind of throw the kitchen scenk at him. And
why I'm doing this, I'm listening. Am I getting any response?
Can I hear sticks cracking? Can I hear him raking
a tree. Maybe I'll rake a tree before I bogle,
so it may be a cal caul and then raking
a tree. And you know, we're always trying to make

(21:10):
these cookie cookie cutter scenarios, and so it's like in
the moment, I may decide to rake a tree or
I may not. But raking is also a verbal communication
that's maybe a lower threat level. So I like to
throw a lot of raking into my calling as well.
But yeah, on an aggressive ble, easy, continue to do
what you're doing. Passive bowls start at the lowest threat

(21:34):
level and slowly, slowly crank it up. You know if
if if he's biggling on his own, I feel like
you got to get tighter. You got to get inside
that bubble. And you know, we'll we'll talk a little
bit more about like terrain and vegetation here in a
little bit on on ways to move and when you

(21:54):
should move, when you should reset up. So question number three,
when do you choose the caw call over big or
vice versa. So this is this is all answer it.
I just kind of went over that on calling elk in.
But let's say we're traveling along the trail or a
road system. We're gonna walk in and most of the
time I'm locating location bugling, and I will let out

(22:16):
a locat or bugle every time the road kind of
bends out. So every time I'm on let's say I'm
on a main ridge, the road's running along it, but
every once in a while you got to go around
a finger ridge, right, so that puts me kind of
out into the drainage. I should have a small drainage
to my left and my right as I get to
that point, and I'll typically bugle from those. If those
are every five hundred yards, I will bugle from there

(22:37):
quick two to three high note bugle. I'm listening and
I'll do that, you know, every three to five hundred yards.
It's not, you know, too much. Some may say it's
too much, but it's just kind of enough. And if
you sound like an elk, if you got the wind right,
there's no real harm that can be done. You know,
there's there's nobody heard a truck door slam, nothing's out
of the ordinary. It could just be an elk traveling
along that trail or along that road trying to Okay

(23:00):
to Cow. No big deal. And the reason I like
to do that. Sometimes you'll get, you know, the next
corner away and a bowl answer back under where you
just were. For some reason or another, you didn't hear,
you didn't want to respond, you were too close for
him to respond. And so that's why I think, you know,
biggling at those points is just kind of a good

(23:20):
a good good reminder every time you get there, bigle
do you get a response? Now? If I'm walking on
those roads and I see fresh tracks or I see
I smell elk, and I think they're close, and I
don't know exactly what I'm working with, I will typically
try to locate with a cow call just a typically

(23:40):
you know, just your normal meal. Do I get an
answer yes or no? And then if I don't, I
feel like I've given enough time. Sometimes I'll calm you,
you know, two or three times, wait, do it again
in five minutes nothing, and then you'll let you know,
you let a bigle off. And I'm trying to like
trying to decide were the elk here down, you know,

(24:01):
upwind of me and I'm smelling them at this location,
like where would that put the elk? I'm trying to,
you know, figure this all out as I'm sitting there
as well, you know, be across the road, and I'm
smelling them, and now they're down wind like this, could
I need to probably move? But yeah, that's that's how
I decide. I don't cow call a lot to locate.
But there are times when it's still er quiet, or

(24:23):
maybe I've got a timber flat below me. I'm like,
I'm not gonna bugle here. I'm just gonna see if
I can get them on a cow call to start with.
Once again, kind of just going to the lowest threat,
there's no harm. If that doesn't work, then I'll go
to a bugle. Now why trying to call elk in?
If I know it's a satellite bowl, I will typically
always go to cal calls and kind of, you know,
just throw them at them, you know, keep them coming.

(24:45):
We've been fortunate enough to call quite a few bowls,
satellite bowls in in you know, burn areas where we
can we can see exactly what they're doing as we're calling,
and it seems like the more cow calls you throw
at them, the faster they come. You know, you stop
calling for three or four minutes, they kind of slow down,
They're looking around, they are still coming your way. But
you go back to cow calls, it's almost like they
get excited they're on their way that satellite bowl, especially

(25:08):
when you're not talking about like the mature satellite bulls
that are maybe challenging herd bulls or other mature satellite
bulls for you know, small little harems or able to
take cows away like that mid range satellite bowl. You
they get pretty excited. You can't overcall. Now if we're
talking like mature quote unquote mature satellite bulls. Once we

(25:29):
get to watch in the morning that that are really
pestering the herd trying to peel a cow or two off,
I would probably tend to be agle at those because
they're obviously willing to challenge live herd bulls. You can
call those in, you know, if they think they're going
to come in and have cows and that one that's
more of that mixed bag. But you really need to
know what you're working with on those, and sometimes you

(25:51):
were going to have to make a guestman on whether
you were calling to a herd bowl or calling to
a satellite bowl. In those instances where they're in the
timber and you just can't see him. And I told
the story at the seminar the other night. I've killed
a handful, you know, or a rafter full of bulls,
real small satellite bowls from here in my backyard on

(26:14):
the Willow Paul Hills that I thought I was calling
to the herd bowl. There was a herd bowl there,
but the satellite bowl gets curious or comes in first
to what I would consider herd bowll tactics where I'm
estrous whining and putting big challenge beagles on that bowl.
All of a sudden, you have a satellite bowl come
into eight ten yards to check you out. So I've
always said, like in my experience, and I've did it

(26:35):
over and over, not only for myself but for my
buddies and people I've hunted with, you can't really overcall
and you're still gonna kill satellite bulls with those herd
bull tactics. So question four, what terrain features do I prioritize?
Why when elk hunning midday? So you've heard a lot
of us, you know, some of you have heard us
talk about that midday madness. We kill a lot of

(26:58):
bulls in midday, just times, just as many as we
do in the morning or in the evening. I actually
prefer an evening hunt, especially if I've got to hunt
the bowl for what we call hunting them for the
next day or for the next you know, the next opportunity.
I love being able to hunt a bowl that I've
patterned that I feel is uninterrupted. So if a bowl
feeds from you know, meadow, a and timber, be a

(27:22):
lot of times I will assume that that bowl or
that herd is going to reverse what they did. If
they're uninterrupted. Obviously there was good feed there. The lead
cow likes getting them there. Now with that said, there
are many herds that do more of a loop. They
will start feeding out the other side of the timber
and end up there in the morning. I just happened
to catch them there in the morning. So I love

(27:43):
hunting elk at night, being able to like have a
good idea where I think they're going to end up.
But let's go back to midday. So let's say you
watch a herd feed. They go from the ideal feed,
the meadow, the open, the clear cut, wherever you're at,
where your main food sources at, and they will transition
from that food to bed at some point, whether they

(28:05):
need to do it based on the thermal switching, they
need to get back in there under safety, they need,
you know, some of these things, pressure, whatever it may be.
Those those elk will slowly move from ideal feed to
what we call the fringe or the transition into their
ultimate bed. I like to I used to put a
lot of pressure on them in that transition unless you

(28:28):
can get in front of where they want to go
an ambush, slash call, or just straight ambush elk. It's
it's almost impossible to call elk backwards unless the terrain
and vegetation allows you to get so close to them
that you can get that bowl to peel off. But
elk are creatures of habit. They want to go where
they want to go already, they don't want to be

(28:48):
turned around by calling. A lot of times with that
in the eyes on you and noise, you're not gonna
be able to just sneak up on them. So if
you can ambush and get ahead of them, that works great,
But typically we will let them if we're not in
a position they get there very quickly, or if the
wind's gonna get crazy in the middle of our approach,
I'm just gonna let them get to the bedding and
settle down. A lot of time that a lot of

(29:11):
times that bowl, if he's bugling, will continue to bogle
or will buggle again when he gets to his bed.
And then I need to start thinking about how am
I going to get there? With where the wind's at
right now, with where the wind's gonna be when I
get there, and what's the wind you know, where the
thermal is going to be. You know, what's the shade
is on the north face the south face? Am I

(29:33):
gonna have swirling winds in there? How am I going
to approach? And typically it involves a lot of work
it You know, you're gonna have to drop elevation, gain elevation,
but it's the way you're gonna have to get in
there to do it right. You know a lot of
times I will assume the winds going up after a
certain time, depending on how steep the drainage is, and

(29:56):
so we will a lot of times just wait for
that to fully switch, get fully stable. Now there are
days where storm systems are moving in or it's warm,
but we know the weather. You know, hey, the weather's
gonna switch from you know high pressure in seventies in
the middle of day and it's gonna clouds are moving
in and it's gonna rain the night. If I'm gonna
be if I'm not gonna be able to make my

(30:16):
move fast enough, and I'm not very patient person, i
may have to just say, hey, we're gonna have to
go after him in the morning or wait till this
weather stabilizes. So I'm thinking about thermals, I'm thinking about
prevailing wind, and I'm also thinking about like storm system
wind as I make my approach. So you're gonna want
to go where you think either a lot of times

(30:37):
and and midday you're gonna want to approach from above
the elk, which you know, depending on how the terrain
and vegetation lays out is going to affect that, or
the way that we will typically do it is we
will go down the drainage from those elk far enough
on the opposite side, far enough below them that when

(30:57):
we start to come up the other side, the wind
is going to miss them, and I would rather come
up on contour with them if if certain areas, So
it depends on what what's going to be allowed. I'm
not afraid to to you know, spend a couple hours
getting in on them, and and you you know, I
try to read the wind where the elk are at
a lot of times, if we've hunted areas over over
many years, we kind of know that there's going to

(31:18):
be scrolling winds or hey, you know, the elk aren't dumb.
They bedd in certain areas for certain reasons, and we
we've you know, had to do some out of the
box things. But know when you get in there, if
there were satellite bowls in that herd, the satellite bulls
will almost always bed downwind from the herd you're trying
trying to get in on. So if you're doing everything right,

(31:38):
you will typically run into bedded satellite bowls somewhere along
the way of you trying to get to that herd
bowl or if you're wanting to kill those satellite bulls,
keep that in mind that typically those satellite bowls are
going to bed two, three, four hundred yards downwind from
where that that betted herd is. So train features. I'm
looking for benches, I'm looking for water, I'm looking for

(32:00):
and once again these are ideal, little cookie cutter you know,
benches of some sort which is just a break in
the train or a you know, a gradually not a
steep train. And then those elk want some sort of
protection above. So like a lot of times, if you've
got like steep behind it, they've got you know, they're

(32:21):
gonna want to have exit routes. So I'm just looking
for some of those terrain features. A lot of times
this gives it, like a bonus point is if there's
like a low pass up the ridge from there for escapement,
so they have to come up and over they can
quickly jet out or jet out a trail system, you know,
is what I'm looking for. And then ideally as we

(32:43):
move in tight, we got to be really patient. I'm
really waiting because I don't know where that bowl's at.
But if I've did everything right and the wind is
in my face, I should be able to smell the
herd elk that we're after. But I don't know exactly
where he's at. I don't want to get picked off
by any elk, so I'm typically waiting for him to
make a midday bugle or he will eventually get up
bump cows, maybe check on them again. And then a

(33:03):
lot of times midday, he may run off to some
close water source, so you could be on that water source,
or you could try to kill him when he comes
back from the water source, or a lot of times
when he gets going if you elect to call, you
can sometimes get him fired up from sneaking in that
close to his herd. But yeah, train features I'm wanting,
you know, around home alders because there's typically water in

(33:27):
that area. It's cooler, so elk love to bed and alders,
you know, if i'm if I'm you know what I
call out west anywhere besides the coastal stuff I'm looking for,
you know, bigger timber, more solid shade cover, you know.
But there are units where the elk will bed out
in the sage all day long. So just what terrain

(33:47):
features in that area is going to defer no matter
where you're at, and elk will kind of bed all over.
But that's typically what I'm looking for, is some sort
of a relief in the train feature into a bench.
Question five, and this will be a little bit shorter.
How close do you like to get before making your
final setup as close as possible so you can't put

(34:09):
a number on that that's going to depend on the train.
You know, I always tell everybody a flat hayfield is terrible,
but you know a flat, a flat that is full
of big timber is better because I now have vegetation
that allows me to get a lot closer keep me
out of the visual of those elk. Now you add

(34:30):
timber or brush into steep rolling country. Now I've got
the ideal situation. I've got the train helping me where
the vegetation can't, and I've got vegetation helped me where
maybe the train isn't. You know, can't give me everything,
but that combination and the ability to move it is ideal.
So as close as I can get, But ideally, I

(34:51):
don't want to make a peep until I'm within one
hundred yards of those elk. Now do I always get
that close? No? Sometimes the train and vegetation won't allow it.
And if I move another twenty or thirty fet I
may be able to get away with it. But maybe
the setup isn't right, or maybe I can't get away
with that twenty to thirty feet. But if I stay
at one hundred and thirty yards, at least I've got
a good setup. So my setup always dictates how close

(35:11):
I can get first, and then if I believe I
can set up in a spot, I will continue to push.
But as you approach, you're starting to like visualize yourself
because you're looking twenty thirty forty yards ahead, like if
I got to that tree. And people get pretty good
at this, Like as you're walking through the woods, if
you've got good woodsman ship, you're like, oh, yeah, the
trail is gonna I'm gonna go that way, and then

(35:32):
there won't be any trees in my way. I don't
have to step over any logs. Like you're looking ahead
and you're trying to visualize, like if I set up
at that tree, what can I see? Where's that out
gonna come from? So ideally one hundred yards if possible,
but really as close as you can get without bumping anything.
You do not ever want to let them see you.

(35:52):
You know they can hear you. Sound isn't the end
of the game, but a lot of times I will
try to move in silent. It's kind of that shock
and awe system. If I can now if you've been
pushing an elk, and maybe it's your second or third
set up, you don't have to be as quiet you know,
an elk isn't going to get there without being quiet,
so there's no necessarily need. But I don't know, just

(36:14):
sometimes I feel like, hey, I want to especially when
I'm moving in on betting areas and stuff. I just
want to be ultimate, you know, ultra quiet, not making
a peep. Question six, how do you handle a hung
up bowl that won't close a distance? This is a

(36:36):
tough one. Ideally you prevent that from not setting up
where they're going to hang up, you know, be forty
yards from when an elk. So here's here's how number one,
we're reversing nature. A bowl beagles, that cow usually chooses
him and goes to him number one. Number two, when
a bowl does have to commit and close some of

(36:57):
that distance themselves, they will tip typically stop where they
see where the caller is or where that supposed elk,
whether it be it a bowl or cow is, and
expect to see them. And if you're not there, they
will typically hang out for maybe a minute too, maybe
pace a little bit, bugle again, and head right back
to where they came from. So if you prevent that

(37:18):
by getting forty yards from say a terrain break or
forty yards away or whatever your archery range is away
from a brush line. Do not set up one hundred yard,
you know, on a one hundred yard wide meadow, because
that bull's going to get to the edge of the meadow,
expect to see you, or expect for you to show yourself,
and then he's going to leave. So hung up bulls

(37:38):
Number one. I try to prevent him if we get
in a scenario where maybe we've pulled him as far
as he's willing to go and leave his cows, but
maybe he's still seventy or eighty yards out. This is
where either some out of the box stuff has to happen.
We call you know, the dirt calls it the weep,
wizbang or whatever he calls it. Where he'll fade back
like maybe he's maybe that bull's willing to chase a

(37:59):
ca how a little bit farther if she's not at
seventy yards or eighty yards or one hundred yards or
a hundred and twenty yards, like, maybe he'll keep coming
to that cow sound. Maybe he'll chase that bugle next
or fifty or sixty yards from where you originally started calling.
We will also give them the silent treatment. There are
times where you just feel like, all right, we've bugled
a lot back and forth, back and forth. He's just

(38:21):
sitting their hammering at seventy yards. He's not really in
a hang up spot, but he's not coming any closer,
so technically he's hung up. We will just go silent
for not forty four to five minutes and see if
he will respond to that. What's his reaction If he
starts to head back to his herd. Sometimes we will.
We may start calling again and he will come back

(38:41):
to that spot, but there's like an invisible line. He
is not coming any closer to us. At that point,
you go quiet, let him go back to his herd,
settle down, and then we have to make up the
distance with our feet. And then a lot of times
we can call him back to that same location if
he hasn't moved his herd. If that makes any sense,
so he's probably willing to come back to that spot. Now,
if I'm seventy or eighty yards, I need to be

(39:02):
able to move forty or fifty and be able to
shoot that location when he comes back. Sometimes we will
do it, especially if it's a two person setup, we
will have one person stay back and that way only
the shooter has to move up forty or fifty yards
and then we'll play it that way, and then when
you start to call up, maybe we can get him
to come back there. So hung up bowls are tough,

(39:24):
but I would say, fade back on your calling, be quiet,
and then if you need to let him go back
to his herd or go the direction he wants, and
then close the distance, get a little bit better setup.
Question seven. What gear tech has actually made a difference
in my success? Man, We work with a lot of
great brands, and I don't want to like say that

(39:45):
it's made the difference. It does their incremental differences. You know,
when we first started, I didn't hunt with a range fighter.
I had a big old bushnail eight hundred and it
just wasn't I used it for rifle hunting more than
than archer hunting. Now that we've got the smaller archery ones,
we've got easy ways to keep them and keep them
out of the way. Archery range finders are definitely, you know,

(40:09):
one of the bigger things that I use Now. There
are still situations where you've got to be able to
guess or guess them at yardage very you know, very closely.
But I would say archie range finders have been a
game changer. Early in my career, I had all kinds
of issues with boots, so that's that's kind of that
gear when I finally got the you know, a pair

(40:29):
of boots that fit right has been able to allow
me to go and then they're just lighter gear. Maybe
it lets you go farther. You know, it's just there's
there's lots of great gear, but as far as like
making a difference in success, I would say for me,
it's been range finders and you know, a pair of
boots that fits a little bit better. You know, packs,

(40:50):
you know, don't lead to success necessarily, but they're definitely
more comfortable. They make they make the whole thing and
more enjoyable, you know, tense or lighter, but don't necessari
lead to success. I'm going to pack a six pound
tent up there, but man, packing a two pound tent
is a lot nicer, you know. But yeah, I would
say that rangefinders that have actually made a difference and

(41:10):
allowed me to be more successful at least on you know,
the archery side. You know, I don't use lighted ox
I can see where people have trouble following their arrow
or you know, need to find their arrow. Could help
and success. I wouldn't say success, it may help them
know what happened on on the rifle side, you know,

(41:32):
a muzzloader side. Changing of some laws where inline muzzloaders
are now legal allows me to use you know some
you know guns that were designed for black Horn two
and nine loss these get up ignition systems that allow
us to shoot farther. We had a rule change that
allows us to use a one x red dot which
now extends your range with the muzzloader. On the rifle side,

(41:57):
just the the technology changes over the last twenty years,
you know, more accurate rifles, more confidence in me as
a shooter. And then I grew up, you know, the
old Kentucky windage. We would just hold over, so we
really had you know, uh three hundred yard range limit

(42:17):
and if something was really set still, we knew exactly
what our holdovers needed to be at four hundred and
it was kind of a holdover in guests, like all right,
we need to be you know, twenty seven inches high
at four hundred, Like all right, an elk's chest is
twenty you know, whatever it is, you would you would
make that decision and just have to hold over. So on.
On rifles, I would say scopes with turrets. There's always

(42:38):
been that technology, but it's not something I utilized until
just recently. Like I say, I I have shot a
few animals, which what some people may consider long range,
but the majority of our stuff is still close. I
would say it's just my confidence to go out there
and execute a good shot. You know, triggers that are
actually at two pounds versus my old you know, my

(42:58):
old ruger that I grew up with, I had a
seven pound trigger. You know, some of these things are
just they aid in me being more confident. Question eight.
How do I stay mentally sharp during multi day hunts
with little action? I was just kind of through sports,
through growing up, just my mentality, some of my hunting

(43:21):
partners mental toughness and mentality. Yeah, there are times where
we get down. Our buddies will pick us up. I
would just kind of say, we're kind of built for
that where it doesn't get at us. I'm also not
willing to stay in an area where there's a little
action unless I know the little actions being caused by
a lull in the rut, some pressure, I will just

(43:44):
pick up and leave to a different spot within the
unit or with the zone, or wherever I can hunt.
But we just go in with the mindset. And we've
did this long enough with the same group of guys,
Like you only get so many days a year to hunt.
We absolutely love the hunt. We love the grind, and
we love the difficulty. Like early in my you know,
early when and when I started hunting, you know, especially

(44:06):
as a youngster, and then as I got into high
school and even into college, I always say blood thirsty,
but I was very set on being I wanted to
kill as fast as I could. Maybe maybe horn siyes
didn't matter. The experience didn't matter, the adventure didn't matter.
It's like I want to go out and I want
to kill the biggest animal I can on the very
first day and be done because that made me look
like a better hunter or whatever. Now as I'm getting older,

(44:27):
like man, I love a grind. I love killing things
on the last day. I love going into the last
day being like I got just as good as chance
as the day I showed up. I feel like, regardless
of what you kill, when you come home, and look
at that, you're like, yep, that deer was killed on
day nine of a nine day hunt and it was
five degrees you know, you know, we had crazy temperature

(44:49):
swings last year on my Idaho deer hunt with Tyson Dice.
Tyson killed on day two. I killed on day nine,
and we were going home that afternoon like we had
one more hurrah and we were going to do a
two and a half hour dive in we spotted a
buck across the way bedded, and fortunately we found a
buck below us before we took off. But that was
our day. We were going to give everything we had
to the very end. And a lot of this was

(45:12):
built through experience. Enough of me and my buddies and
guys I hunt with camera, guys, guys that were there,
you know in these hunts. We've been there enough to
know it only takes one and it can happen at
any time. It can happen on the very first morning
of the hunt, it can happen on the very last
evening of the hunt. And most of the time in
areas that we're hunting or not being messed with by
other pressure, it's equal throughout the whole hunt. Like it's

(45:33):
just a matter of an animal being in the right
place at the right time, and we can make a
move on it. So mental toughness is just kind of built.
I've also been a firm believer that physical toughness kind
of builds your mental toughness because if you're not challenging
yourself physical if your physical ability is a pretty high
standard or pretty high bar, then you're not questioning your

(45:53):
mental capacity all the time, like, man, this is tough,
Like you know, we should be doing something else. Like no,
if this is just easy, it doesn't kind of if
that makes any sense, it just doesn't kind of trigger
your mental side. And so I'm always more mentally tough
when I go into a season or a hunt in
better shape. But uh yeah, just built from experience, Like oh,
I've been there at three o'clock in the morning in

(46:15):
a boulder field trying to pack a quarter of a
bowl out and I live through that, Like this is easy,
Like we're still fine. Like if you keep raising the
bar on hard stuff, you've did everything else that's not
as hard as that. You're like, ah, you've you've got
you've got reason on on. I did something, you know,
like this before number nine. What's the biggest mistake I

(46:36):
see other elk hunters make. And I don't want to
make it about calling, but I'm gonna I'm gonna make
this one about calling people that are afraid to call
it all or don't, or they're they're unsure gain the confidence.
We've got all kinds of stuff out there for you.
You know, easy one, easy sucker. We're launching the easy

(46:56):
one here in a little bit, the easy Bugler. Like
some of these things are meant to make it so
that you are able to google people that call their
way all the way to elk is a big mistake.
As I mentioned earlier, these bulls want to maintain their cows.
They want to recreate, and they want to keep those
cows until the end, till every one of those cows
comes into estrus. Do not give them the chance to exit,

(47:21):
you know, be quiet until you get there, and then
give them no choice in the whole fight or flight decision.
It's either if you're gonna fly, I'm getting your cows,
or if you're gonna keep your cows, you're gonna come
over here and we're gonna have to duke it out.
Now from a non calling side. I will add this
in hunters that are too committed to an area, I

(47:41):
see it. We see it every year. And don't get
me wrong, we're all out there for different reasons. You'll
see guys come out and set up a sixteen by
twenty wall tent. They got their trailers, they've got their
you know, rain rain flies out, they've got their shade
tents out, they've got all their tables out. Those people
are locked into an area for the entire hunt. Well,

(48:01):
what if there aren't elk there? What if it's not
a good spot, what if the pressure in that area
is just absolutely crazy. Now, like I said, if you're
there the camp, do what you're going to do by
all means, enjoy it, live it up, get out of
it what you want out of it. But I'm there
to kill an elk. A lot of times we'll throw
out a canvas cutter, we'll throw out a pup tent.
And I'm not committing to an area until I know

(48:21):
there's nobody else in there, or there's enough elk and
enough action in there that I'm willing to dive in.
So that's one last little mistake. People just over committing
to an area or an idea or an e scout
or whatever it may be, and not moving or flowing
with where the elk are for that year. I've been
to areas, you know, year after year. Sometimes it's on fire.
Sometimes the elk just aren't there and there's no rhyme

(48:43):
or reason to it. It's like, well, is it the food?
Is it this or that? It's just not where the
elk want to be. Maybe maybe the lead cow died
over the year, or the winner and she just took
him to a completely different area. There is some data
talking with Brock as well, where sometimes these elk just
go to a different drainage, they go to a different
you know, and for no rhyman reason, You're gonna have
to go find those out? Are there wolves in the area?

(49:04):
You know? Where are these elk moving? Where do I
go to go to find them? And then the last question,
what's one rule I always follow when chasing herd bulls?
Treat that stock like it's the last stock of the season,
the last stock of your life, the last chance you're
ever gonna get at that bowl. For me, I was like,
why why is the last day? Why do I get

(49:25):
more chances? Or why do I always seem to find
more success on the last day than all these other days.
And so when chasing herd bulls, chasing a bowl I
really want to kill, I'm very I always remind myself, like,
pull out all the stops on this, don't don't give up,
don't get tired, don't risk the wind, don't risk being

(49:47):
seen everything, do everything right, put in the extra effort,
you know, think about the decisions you're gonna make with
with how you're gonna you know, how you're gonna call,
how puce you're gonna get. Are you willing to you know,
watch your feet and don't snap that stick whatever it is.
Treat the light, you know, that stock or that approach

(50:08):
or that calling or that setup like it's the last
one of the year, and that that goes for archery,
muzzload or rifle, Like what do I gotta do to
try to make this happen? And if it's always like that,
I feel like you're just giving yourself an edge. I
always always got like this percent meter in my head
where it's like, all right, whatever I'm doing right now,
I've got a ten percent chance of killing this bowl.

(50:28):
But it's all I got to go on. So We're
gonna go do it if I can do everything right,
and I feel like, all right now I'm up to
twenty percent. Like you're always trying to just stack the
odds in your favor, and I try to do that
on every decision I make, every hunt I go on,
every area I walk into, Like, well, I've been glass
in this area for two days. On day three, why
would and I haven't seen a note, Why on day

(50:49):
three would I pick to go hike into that area
unless I'm like, man, I just feel like there's a
bull or some elk over there. That's just they're just
not showing early in the morning or late at night.
Like it just seems like a crazy the idea. But
if I've been glass in a ridge for two or
three days and always see a herd or two over there, yeah,
maybe they are a long ways away. I got to
drive around whatever it may be. There's nobody hunting them.

(51:10):
They seem to stay out in the open for a while.
They seem to be bugling good. It's a boy I
want to go kill. Like I'm gonna throw my egg.
I'm gonna going after those, Like my percentage is higher
over there than going into an area, and so like
it's kind of that top of funnel, bottom of funnel,
Like I'm early in a hunt, I'm gathering as much
information as I can quickly trying to find elk, and
then by the end, the bottom of the funnel is

(51:31):
where I need to kill that elk. How am I
going to put all these parts together, be in the
right spot, make the right call, know where these elk
are going to go, finally pattern them whatever it may be,
and then kill them. Yeah. So just I'm always trying
to stack up and fill up that meter of my
percentage of success with whatever decisions I'm making, whatever I'm

(51:51):
doing throughout the hunt is leading to that being as
close to one hundred as I can get it. Now.
It is hunting. It's never gonna get close to one hundred.
But I'm I'm I'm happy as it can be if
I'm out there and I feel like I've got a
twenty to twenty five percent odds I kill in the
bowl that I hear beagle or the one I see
across the way, Like you give me twenty percent odds
in any situation, I'm running at that opportunity you put enough.

(52:13):
Everybody knows how statistics. I'm a math nerd, Right, So
you give yourself five opportunities with twenty percent odds, the
odds now say you should have capitalized on one of
those opportunities. Right, you give yourself ten opportunities at ten percent,
you're eventually going to capitalize. And so I'm just trying
to stack enough of those situations up that eventually things
are going to work out for me. So no, we

(52:35):
appreciate you all tuning in. That was my rambling about
out of state and how I think about it, and
then just ten questions I wanted to dig into a
little bit more that were spurred from an ELK calling
seminar I did this weekend. I appreciate y'all, I hope
you're all getting ready for y'all season, and thanks for
listening to. Cutting the distance is known the mot