June 16, 2020 • 8 mins
Can people who are asymptomatic spread COVID-19? The WHO last week said it was “very rare” and then had to walk it back clarifying that the error was confusion due to a muddling of scientific jargon and that there is a difference between asymptomatic and presymptomatic people. Either way, the virus can be spread whether the person exhibits symptoms or not. Greg Barber, staff writer at Wired, joins us for more on the COVID confusion.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Tuesday, June six. I'm Oscar Emiraz from the Daily
Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.
We're in a new phase in the fight against the
coronavirus pandemic. We're social distancing, we're wearing face masks, and
we're reopening the country. I'll still give you updates on
the latest news about the virus and vaccine development, but
(00:20):
also be sharing stories about how we're reopening America after
the coronavirus shutdowns. Can people who are asymptomatic spread COVID nineteen?
The w h O last week said it was very
rare and then how to walk it back, saying that
the error was confusion due to a muddling of scientific
jargon and that there was a difference between asymptomatic and
pre symptomatic people. Either way, the virus can be spread
(00:41):
whether a person exhibits symptoms or not. Greg Barber, staff
writer at Wired, joins us for more on the COVID confusion.
Thanks for joining us, Greg, Thanks for having me. I
wanted to talk about coronavirus. Obviously, it's a novel coronavirus.
We're learning so much about this as we go along
and they're so much that we don't know about it.
And one of the things also that has been troubling
(01:04):
is kind of the wording and the terminology used when
describing this and describing transmission rates and all that stuff.
And last week we got some confusing things out of
the w h O, the World Health Organization. It sounded
as if people that were asymptomatic or presenting no symptoms
weren't spreading the virus. That was kind of that mixed
(01:24):
messaging that we were getting. Then they had to go
back and retract it and say, well, it's rare, but
it does happen. And it got very confusing very quickly.
You know, people that were saying that we shouldn't be
shutting down the economy over this used this as a
kind of a rallying cry, saying, hey, look see even
the who is saying that these people are not spreading it,
but that's not necessarily true. Greg helped walk us through
(01:45):
this and talk about people that are asymptomatic, pre symptomatic,
and then all the terminology used to describe it. So
on Monday, an epidemiologist named Mariyavan Kharkov, who is a
technical lead for the World Health Organization's covered response. She
was asked a question about asymptomatic transmission. This is really
the key word here, and she said that these cases
(02:06):
are very rare, especially these cases when they actually cause
other infections of COVID nineteen. So this got picked up
really quickly. Asymptomatic infections are very rare, and this was
really a sort of became a rallying cry, particularly among
pundits and news organizations that think that the lockdowns are overblown.
And there's kind of a neat logic to that, the
(02:28):
logic behind shelter in places that you and I should
stay home even if we feel fine, because we might
be at risk to others. But you know, if asymptomatic
infections are rare, then I'm only at risk to others
if I'm showing symptoms. So those symptoms are basically signal
to me to stay home. But this got a lot
of pushback. Epidemiologists are basically watching with horror. What it
(02:49):
came down to is that there are two different ways
of talking about asymptomatic. One, of course, is this general
definition where it refers to people without symptoms. But Van
Kirkov was actually using in a much narrower sense. She
meant people who never show symptoms throughout the entire course
of their illness, and that's actually somewhat rare, but it's
to distinguish from people who might not be showing symptoms
(03:10):
right now, but then go on to show symptoms. There's
another term for that, that's pretty symptomatic. So in a sense,
everyone is pretty symptomatic at some point, usually when you
get a new virus and it takes a couple of
days for symptoms to develop, and there's actually a lot
of evidence in that stage of the disease those people
are actually quite infectious. There have been studies on this
thing called viral load, which is basically like the number
(03:32):
of copies of virus that they find inside people, and
these pre symptomatic people are actually have really high viral loads.
And so that's not to say that they're necessarily infecting
other people. One distinguishing factor might just be that they're
not out there coughing and sneezing, which can spread the virus.
But they do have a lot of infectious virus to
share with others, even just by speaking and breathing, and
(03:53):
then obviously increases the calls for people to wear face masks.
You don't know whether you could be shedding that or
is at any moment whether you're asymptomatic or pre symptomatic,
and that's why you don't want to be spreading that out.
But one of the things that puts a hinder on
what is when it comes to contact tracing, because it's
really hard to nail somebody down if they weren't experiencing
(04:15):
any symptoms, so they could have got somebody sick. Then
later on, you know, it's the job of the contact
tracer to kind of find out who it was, who
was the source, and it just really complicates everything because
they were never experiencing those symptoms. I should step back
and say that, as von Karkiv clarified, it's actually not
really certain whether these true asymptomatic people and these people
(04:36):
who never show symptoms are rare or not, but there's
increasing evidence that they are. This is from studies that
have tracked coronavirus patients to see if they developed symptoms
down the road, and there's often finding the people who
maybe they didn't think that they had symptoms, maybe they
had like a gas or intestinal issues or something, so
they just kind of maybe we're classified as a symptomatic
(04:58):
and further investigation and it turns out the they have
had mild symptoms are just weird symptoms that they didn't
think went with COVID nineteen. So finding out that more
over time that these true asymptomatic infections is actually somewhat
rare is actually a good thing, because, as you say,
those people are really hard to track in contact tracing
because they're probably not very likely to go get a
(05:20):
test these kind of invisible transmitters that contact tracers can't find. Generally,
you have to kind of work back to those people
because you might find somebody that they infected who is
symptomatic and went in and got a test, and then
you find just by interviewing all their different contacts that oh, yeah,
that person is sort of at the core of multiple infections,
(05:40):
or maybe they remember symptoms that they didn't report didn't
think merited a test. So in that respect, I think
that they're epidemiologists are a little bit heartened by the
kind of growing concessus around the rarity of these truly
asymptomatic cases. Yeah, and there's a bunch of reports that
have estimated the numbers very Obviously there's one report that
(06:01):
says about cases are asymptomatic. There's others that lower that
down to maybe about that are asymptomatic. But you know,
it's just again like a cautionary thing. You know, these
people that might be asymptomatic, but they work in these
up close and personal fields healthcare workers, hairdressers, cashiers, people
that are handing things back and forth with people. They
(06:21):
could be spreading it and not knowing it. That's why
it's important that they get tested regularly. Everyone else needs
to just kind of hold the line and kind of
as we've been saying, where the mask, wash your hands,
and kind of just generally be careful about things. Yeah,
this was actually incorporated into the strategy of one of
the epidemiologists I spoke to last week for testing folks.
(06:41):
Name is marm Kilpatrick, and he works in Santa Cruz
County in California, and he's been incorporating these sort of
proportion of asymptomatic cases into the strategy for testing because
testing is still at this point somewhat expensive. It's difficult
to coordinate, it's difficult to get people to show up
at some dry through a spot for a swab. So
(07:02):
he's been trying to target basically advertise these tests to
people who are getting up closing personal like those hairdressers
and healthcare workers. Of course, in order to make sure
that if those people are going to be the asymptomatic cases,
that they get tested early on so that we know
if they're infecting others, we can contact trace, we can
(07:24):
isolate those cases and hold the virus at bay. Just
very important to keep track and keep following, you know,
how things are being described, and kind of be smart
about it. You know, if somebody is asymptomatic just doesn't
mean that they can't spread it at all. It's very
well possible that they could. But yeah, obviously it's a
little more obvious. Somebody that's coughing and sneezing is probably
(07:45):
should stay home because they might be launching out those
particles out further than somebody else might be. So just
very interesting in the way things get described and the
way things get misconstrued after people start blowing things up.
Gregory Barber, staff writer and Wired, thank you very much
for joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm Oscar Emiraz
and this is reopening America. Don't forget after today's big
(08:08):
news stories You can check me out on the Daily
Dive podcast every Monday through Friday, so follow us on
I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcast
It's Tuesday, June six. I'm Oscar Emiraz from the Daily
Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.
We're in a new phase in the fight against the
coronavirus pandemic. We're social distancing, we're wearing face masks, and
we're reopening the country. I'll still give you updates on
the latest news about the virus and vaccine development, but
(00:20):
also be sharing stories about how we're reopening America after
the coronavirus shutdowns. Can people who are asymptomatic spread COVID nineteen?
The w h O last week said it was very
rare and then how to walk it back, saying that
the error was confusion due to a muddling of scientific
jargon and that there was a difference between asymptomatic and
pre symptomatic people. Either way, the virus can be spread
(00:41):
whether a person exhibits symptoms or not. Greg Barber, staff
writer at Wired, joins us for more on the COVID confusion.
Thanks for joining us, Greg, Thanks for having me. I
wanted to talk about coronavirus. Obviously, it's a novel coronavirus.
We're learning so much about this as we go along
and they're so much that we don't know about it.
And one of the things also that has been troubling
(01:04):
is kind of the wording and the terminology used when
describing this and describing transmission rates and all that stuff.
And last week we got some confusing things out of
the w h O, the World Health Organization. It sounded
as if people that were asymptomatic or presenting no symptoms
weren't spreading the virus. That was kind of that mixed
(01:24):
messaging that we were getting. Then they had to go
back and retract it and say, well, it's rare, but
it does happen. And it got very confusing very quickly.
You know, people that were saying that we shouldn't be
shutting down the economy over this used this as a
kind of a rallying cry, saying, hey, look see even
the who is saying that these people are not spreading it,
but that's not necessarily true. Greg helped walk us through
(01:45):
this and talk about people that are asymptomatic, pre symptomatic,
and then all the terminology used to describe it. So
on Monday, an epidemiologist named Mariyavan Kharkov, who is a
technical lead for the World Health Organization's covered response. She
was asked a question about asymptomatic transmission. This is really
the key word here, and she said that these cases
(02:06):
are very rare, especially these cases when they actually cause
other infections of COVID nineteen. So this got picked up
really quickly. Asymptomatic infections are very rare, and this was
really a sort of became a rallying cry, particularly among
pundits and news organizations that think that the lockdowns are overblown.
And there's kind of a neat logic to that, the
(02:28):
logic behind shelter in places that you and I should
stay home even if we feel fine, because we might
be at risk to others. But you know, if asymptomatic
infections are rare, then I'm only at risk to others
if I'm showing symptoms. So those symptoms are basically signal
to me to stay home. But this got a lot
of pushback. Epidemiologists are basically watching with horror. What it
(02:49):
came down to is that there are two different ways
of talking about asymptomatic. One, of course, is this general
definition where it refers to people without symptoms. But Van
Kirkov was actually using in a much narrower sense. She
meant people who never show symptoms throughout the entire course
of their illness, and that's actually somewhat rare, but it's
to distinguish from people who might not be showing symptoms
(03:10):
right now, but then go on to show symptoms. There's
another term for that, that's pretty symptomatic. So in a sense,
everyone is pretty symptomatic at some point, usually when you
get a new virus and it takes a couple of
days for symptoms to develop, and there's actually a lot
of evidence in that stage of the disease those people
are actually quite infectious. There have been studies on this
thing called viral load, which is basically like the number
(03:32):
of copies of virus that they find inside people, and
these pre symptomatic people are actually have really high viral loads.
And so that's not to say that they're necessarily infecting
other people. One distinguishing factor might just be that they're
not out there coughing and sneezing, which can spread the virus.
But they do have a lot of infectious virus to
share with others, even just by speaking and breathing, and
(03:53):
then obviously increases the calls for people to wear face masks.
You don't know whether you could be shedding that or
is at any moment whether you're asymptomatic or pre symptomatic,
and that's why you don't want to be spreading that out.
But one of the things that puts a hinder on
what is when it comes to contact tracing, because it's
really hard to nail somebody down if they weren't experiencing
(04:15):
any symptoms, so they could have got somebody sick. Then
later on, you know, it's the job of the contact
tracer to kind of find out who it was, who
was the source, and it just really complicates everything because
they were never experiencing those symptoms. I should step back
and say that, as von Karkiv clarified, it's actually not
really certain whether these true asymptomatic people and these people
(04:36):
who never show symptoms are rare or not, but there's
increasing evidence that they are. This is from studies that
have tracked coronavirus patients to see if they developed symptoms
down the road, and there's often finding the people who
maybe they didn't think that they had symptoms, maybe they
had like a gas or intestinal issues or something, so
they just kind of maybe we're classified as a symptomatic
(04:58):
and further investigation and it turns out the they have
had mild symptoms are just weird symptoms that they didn't
think went with COVID nineteen. So finding out that more
over time that these true asymptomatic infections is actually somewhat
rare is actually a good thing, because, as you say,
those people are really hard to track in contact tracing
because they're probably not very likely to go get a
(05:20):
test these kind of invisible transmitters that contact tracers can't find. Generally,
you have to kind of work back to those people
because you might find somebody that they infected who is
symptomatic and went in and got a test, and then
you find just by interviewing all their different contacts that oh, yeah,
that person is sort of at the core of multiple infections,
(05:40):
or maybe they remember symptoms that they didn't report didn't
think merited a test. So in that respect, I think
that they're epidemiologists are a little bit heartened by the
kind of growing concessus around the rarity of these truly
asymptomatic cases. Yeah, and there's a bunch of reports that
have estimated the numbers very Obviously there's one report that
(06:01):
says about cases are asymptomatic. There's others that lower that
down to maybe about that are asymptomatic. But you know,
it's just again like a cautionary thing. You know, these
people that might be asymptomatic, but they work in these
up close and personal fields healthcare workers, hairdressers, cashiers, people
that are handing things back and forth with people. They
(06:21):
could be spreading it and not knowing it. That's why
it's important that they get tested regularly. Everyone else needs
to just kind of hold the line and kind of
as we've been saying, where the mask, wash your hands,
and kind of just generally be careful about things. Yeah,
this was actually incorporated into the strategy of one of
the epidemiologists I spoke to last week for testing folks.
(06:41):
Name is marm Kilpatrick, and he works in Santa Cruz
County in California, and he's been incorporating these sort of
proportion of asymptomatic cases into the strategy for testing because
testing is still at this point somewhat expensive. It's difficult
to coordinate, it's difficult to get people to show up
at some dry through a spot for a swab. So
(07:02):
he's been trying to target basically advertise these tests to
people who are getting up closing personal like those hairdressers
and healthcare workers. Of course, in order to make sure
that if those people are going to be the asymptomatic cases,
that they get tested early on so that we know
if they're infecting others, we can contact trace, we can
(07:24):
isolate those cases and hold the virus at bay. Just
very important to keep track and keep following, you know,
how things are being described, and kind of be smart
about it. You know, if somebody is asymptomatic just doesn't
mean that they can't spread it at all. It's very
well possible that they could. But yeah, obviously it's a
little more obvious. Somebody that's coughing and sneezing is probably
(07:45):
should stay home because they might be launching out those
particles out further than somebody else might be. So just
very interesting in the way things get described and the
way things get misconstrued after people start blowing things up.
Gregory Barber, staff writer and Wired, thank you very much
for joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm Oscar Emiraz
and this is reopening America. Don't forget after today's big
(08:08):
news stories You can check me out on the Daily
Dive podcast every Monday through Friday, so follow us on
I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcast
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