Florida has taken another step in moving on from the coronavirus pandemic. On Monday, Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill banning vaccine passports and an executive order invalidating all remaining local emergency orders, saying the state is no longer in a state of emergency. Some mayors were pushing back on the orders while other lawmakers argued they were trying to strike a balance of protecting people and protecting their civil liberties. Mary Ellen Klas, Capitol Bureau Chief at the Miami Herald, joins us for these new orders and how they impact the national conversation.
Next, the FDA has banned the use an electric shock treatment, but there is still one school using it. The Judge Rotenberg Educational Center in Massachusetts, which deals with some of the difficult developmental and emotional disability cases in the country, uses what’s called a GED device to shocks students to modify their behavior. Disability rights advocates and former residents have spoken out against this practice, but interestingly, some parents of those currently enrolled that have received this treatment support it and say it is the only thing that works. Kevin Monahan, senior producer at the investigative unit at NBC News, joins us for more.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Tuesday, May fourth. I'm Oscar Ramirez in Los Angeles,
and this is the daily dive. Florida has taken another
step in moving on from the coronavirus pandemic. On Monday,
Governor Rhn de Santis signed a bill batting vaccine passports
and an executive order invalidating all remaining local emergency orders,
(00:22):
saying the state is no longer in a state of emergency.
Some mayors were pushing back on the orders. Other lawmakers
argued they were trying to strike a balance of protecting
people and protecting their civil liberty. Mary Ellen, Class Capital
Bureau Chief at the Miami Herald joins us for these
new orders and how they impact the national conversation. Next.
(00:44):
The FDA has banned the use of an electric shock treatment,
but there's still one school using them. The Judge Rottenberg
Educational Center in Massachusetts, which deals with some of the
most difficult developmental and emotional disability cases in the country,
uses what calls a g E D device to shock
students to modify their behavior. Disability rights advocatests and former
(01:05):
residents have spoken out against this practice, but interestingly, some
parents of those currently a role that have received this
treatment supported and say that it's the only thing that works.
Kevin Monaghan, senior producer at the Investigative Unit at NBC News,
joins us for more. It's news without the noise. Let's
dive in. People have certain freedoms and individual liberties to
(01:32):
make decisions for themselves. I also wonder it's like, Okay,
you're gonna do this, and then what give all this information?
Is some big corporation? You want the fox to guard
the henhouse. I mean, give me a breat Joining us
now is Mary Ellen class Miami Herald Capital Bureau Chief.
Thanks for joining us, Mary Ellen, good to be here.
Lord of Governor Ron de Santis has signed a new
(01:54):
order invalidating all remaining local emergency COVID orders. He also
signed a bill into law that would bar businesses and
schools and government entities from requiring what are you know
a lot of people called vaccine passports. So a lot
of movement there, and obviously, you know Rhonda Santisa, rising
star in the GOP, could be setting the stage for
a lot of other states do a lot of the
(02:16):
same here. So Mary Ellen, tell us a little bit
about what we're seeing in these new orders. So it's
very interesting because the governor is kind of making a
big push to push back on what we're seeing in Florida,
and that is a lot of local governments have imposed
stricter um rules and regulations on social distancing, on mask wearing,
(02:40):
on capacity and restaurants than the governor has. The governor
has basically said everything should go back to normal, everything
should be open, people should not be required to wear masks,
And now he's putting it into a into writing with
this order that has just come out. So basically some
of these still orders that could have been set up
(03:02):
our limits on like let's say, for restaurants, for instances,
other businesses, capacity limits, these things. As you mentioned, mask wearing,
social distancing. So with this order, all of that goes
out the window, right. I think the wording that he
used is that the emergency is over now there's no
need for any of this stuff. What's happened is different
parts of the state have watched as the new variants
(03:23):
have have clustered and become more potent than other parts
of the state. Now it appears as though Florida has
seen the number of new cases kind of level off,
but we are still seeing about thirty additional cases every day,
and along with that comes all the additional depths, So
(03:44):
it's not as if COVID has gone away. So I
guess the governor's perception of the emergency being over is
definitely something that is getting some attention because we heard
from mayors in the communities where they have had more
stricterre relations opposing that. What's their reaction been to all
of this? I mean, they're trying to create these orders
(04:07):
for what they're seeing, you know, at that local local level,
what they're seeing in their own cities, and you know,
the governor is saying, you know, no to all of that.
I mean, first off, can the governor supersede their local rules? One?
And then too, you know what, what is their reaction? Then?
Their reaction is we disagree with this, and um nobody
has come forth to say that they're going to challenge
(04:29):
it legally. However, I think that that is likely to
play out. Communities have something in the Florida Constitution that
is home rule authority, which means that they have the
obligation and the opportunity to regulate their community UM with
their own local government. The governor's stepping in on this issue,
(04:50):
could provoke them to provide, um, you know, a legal
challenge and come forward with a legal challenge. The other
thing is the state, as you know is is not
the same and we're not one unilateral you know, everything
isn't treated the same. There are some communities where people
live in closure quarters, we've got a lot more tourist activity,
(05:14):
um and and those are the places that have had
more restrict uh rulings from local government about social distancing.
So they want to have the able ability to have flexibility,
and this takes that flexibility away, right Yeah. I mean
we all saw the pictures and videos coming out of
spring Break when everybody was just kind of going crazy
(05:34):
out there. So definitely, as you mentioned, this would limit them. Okay,
let's talk a little bit about the vaccine passports side
of things, because he had already made an executive order
with regards to that, but now with this new law
they got signed, that makes it permanent. Now, so as
long as a private companies would still be able to
but everybody else pretty much would not be able to
(05:55):
require these vaccine passports. No, private companies are not going
to be allowed to require them either. Um. That's that's
the rub here. So you're a private business and somebody
either works for you or or is a client of yours,
you cannot require them to show proof of vaccination. It's
the same for schools, things, for governments. Now the only
(06:17):
exception is health health care providers and license health care facilities.
Um they can require proof of vaccination if they want to,
but um private companies won't be able to do it.
Which sets up a bit of a class right now
with the cruise ship industry, which is trying to bring
(06:38):
people back and encourage confidence that their cruise ships are safe,
and so the CDC has allowed them to start sailing
out of Florida courts, but they want them to assure
people that everybody who's on board has been vaccinated. Now
the Governor's order basically says they can't do that. So
I think that's been to emerge as another conflict here.
(06:59):
We'll see how that plays out. And we know some
of the stories from the very beginning of the pandemic.
A lot of cruise ships were kind of early outbreak centers.
It's pretty tough right with the country is starting to
open back up. I know the lawmakers there are on
record saying that they're trying to strike a balance protecting
people from the virus protecting people's civil liberties also. And
one of the lawmakers are I thought, had a pretty
(07:21):
good point though, with regards to the vaccines and you know,
the vaccine passport issue, saying we don't have the same
proven history of the same vaccine that we require our
school children to get the argument is we require vaccines
for other stuff, you know, why not this, And they
say that there's a lot of hesitancy with this, and
it's real and it's understandable, and and I do get
that point because we don't know how long the immunity
(07:43):
lasts from these vaccines yet. I mean we've barely just
started using them for you know, a few months now,
so we don't know what the long term effectiveness is.
So I I that is a hard balance to strike there,
for sure. Yeah, I think that is a really good point.
And I almost think that you could take that argument
as a justification for why you might want to proceed
more cautiously and encourage people to wear masks and do
(08:06):
social distancing, because yes, right now it appears as those
of vaccine is very effective. However, we don't know how
long it lasts. And because we this is sort of
in his experimental stage, it does raise the point of
shouldn't you allow people to be cautious if they choose
to be right? Yeah, that was coming from Representative Tom Leak.
(08:28):
I mean he's a Republican as well. He also did
tell people to go out and get the vaccines. But
a good point there on that one. And you know,
what does all of this do for the national conversation?
As I mentioned Rhonda Santist rising star, he's going to
run for re election pretty soon. It seems like that
most likely would be a lock. It seems like he
might have the aspirations for to run for president. Who
(08:50):
knows what foreign President Trump will do. But what does
this all do for the national conversation regarding restrictions, closures,
mask wearing, all of that. People will be watching Florida
and I'll tell you what. Ron De Santis is absolutely
risen in the Poll's done very well nationally because of
this um open everything, hands off approach and um I
(09:15):
think what we're going to see is that red states
and communities that are led by Republican leaders are going
to start embracing this approach. I think the Florida template
is going to be copied elsewhere. Mary Ellen Class, Miami
Herald Capital Bureau Chief, thank you very much for joining us.
Good to be here. Thank you truly shocked me if
(09:45):
I didn't wake up an Nlpeter Butt in a shore
shocked me again. What they're doing is just taking people
have issues and just building more. Joining us now is
Kevin Monaghan, Senior user at NBC News Investigative Unit. Thanks
for joining us, Kevin, thanks for having the oscar. I'm
(10:06):
gonna talk about this really interesting story. There's a fight
over an electric shock treatment at the Judge Rottenberg Educational
Center in Massachusetts. Now, this is a shock treatment that
they used for some of what they call some of
the most difficult cases, having a lot to do with
people with severe autism, some that are nonverbal, some that
(10:27):
are self harming. And they've used this electric shock treatment
for quite some time. Right before the pandemic became official
in March, the FDA actually banned the use of this treatment,
but because of delays and all that, it's still being
used at this facility in Massachusetts. And I mean, it's
just a crazy story. So Kevin, help us walk through
(10:49):
some of the details on this. The j RC is,
as you said, deals with people with with really extreme
developmental disabilities and emotional disorders. And and as you also said,
you know, many of them are known for sort of
you know, injuring themselves perhaps others. So so these are
extreme behaviors that they're dealing with to start with. But
(11:11):
the g e D, the Graduated Electronic Decelerator is basically
what you said. It's a it's a skin shock that
is not used as a as a therapy per se,
but as a way to to modify people's behavior. So um,
it's been used for quite some time on patients who
(11:33):
may be injuring themselves or others. Uh. It is a
backpack that's hooked up to the student and with electrodes.
You know, some are on arms, some are on legs
other parts of the body, and they wear them often
twenty four hours a day, and when they exhibit some
sort of behavior that that they are not supposed to exhibit,
(11:56):
they're shocked. And uh and it is really an a
you know, fairly seemingly extreme, uh, form of managing that behavior. Yeah,
I mean it's especially where that the student themselves have
to wear a backpack with the battery that supplies the shock.
There's just kind of looking through that just kind of
made me shake my head a little bit. But a
lot of these, uh these in these specific instances, these
(12:19):
are court approved treatment plants. So it's not like, you know,
some fringe doctor just going crazy and they're shocking a
bunch of students. This has been court approved and it's
gone through the process. And amazingly, also, the parents of
these students have come forth and said this is the
only treatment that has helped It's helped them regain some
sort of normalcy, and that's really one of the most
(12:43):
interesting parts of this story. You know, we went in
and met thirty plus parents at a round table, and
it's hard not to have sympathy for a parent who's
been dealing with with a child. They're adults now, but
a child who know, maybe this is their third or
fourth or fifth institution that they're at, and they've been
(13:05):
having trouble a lifetime of you know, difficulties, trying to
deal with a son or a daughter who who are
really dealing with with difficulties, you know, injuring staff of
other places. So for some people's parents, this is like
a last stop for them, and they're very supportive of
of the use of the of the device, the g
(13:28):
e D and the treatment, and they say it has
changed their child's life. On the other hand, you pit
that against human rights UH lawyers, activists the United Nations
who say there are alternatives to this, This is not
the way to to solve these problems alone. So it's
(13:49):
a very interesting two sets of groups when you have
parents who have had their children in that in that
institution for many years who are supportive of this practice,
and that's definitely an interesting wrinkle in that whole thing.
Tell me about the involvement of the FDA and then
banning the use of these g e D things. Obviously
there's been delays because of the pandemic and all, and
(14:10):
because of I think the facility is fighting back saying
that you know they ruled wrong on this, but just
tell me about their involvement and just why it's still
being used. So the f d A has been involved
for many years now, UH and and their discussion is
banning a medical device, and they've done it very few
(14:32):
times in the past. So in March of last year,
they finally after many years of looking into it, banned
the device, and they say it's a it's a present
and unreasonable and substantial risk of illness or injury to
a patient or student. As you said at the top,
there are two things that happened. One is that they
(14:55):
had to stay because of the pandemic. The j r
C was given until sp Timber to get these students
off the device, and they said, because their pandemic is
going on to be very difficult for us to do that.
The FDA agreed. So that's one. The other thing is
the j r C is pushing back with the Parents
(15:15):
Association to appeal that process and that that is in
DC right now in the Court of Appeals, and they
are appealing the judgment of the f d A saying
that they do not have the right to ban the
use of a device, not the device itself. It's very complicated,
but they're saying that there are other uses of this
(15:37):
device and uh, for for instance, there's a commercial use
for people who may want to stop smoking using a
skin shock device, and they're saying that FDA cannot pick
and choose those uses. Now, this facility that j r
C does have a history of some scandals with regards
to this g E D electric device. There's stories about that.
(16:01):
You know, some residents being tied down to restraint boards
for hours and shocked over thirty times. There's another one
where a student was shocked seventy seven times, just heartbreaking
lee after a prank caller instructed staff to do so.
I mean, how did those things get through? How does
that happen? Even you mentioned the real two biggest ones
and in inven video surface of Andre mccollins, an eighteen
(16:24):
year old student at the time who was and he
had severe autism and he was um put face down
on a four point board. All his limbs were tied
down or or UH lockdown UM, and he was shocked
thirty one times, the first one for refusing to take
his coat off when asked, and the next thirty for
(16:48):
the behavior he exhibited after the first shock. It really
got people's attention. UM. The second incident that you're talking
about was in and around that same time when a
prank phone call went to one of the houses that
these students are living in, UH saying that they were
a supervisor from JRC, and one of the students was
(17:09):
shocked seventy seven times. That resulted ultimately in the head
of the j r C and the gentleman Dr Matthew
Israel who created this device stepping down. So there have
been some really there have been some some terrible scandals
there as well. I mean, it's just heartbreaking. I saw
some of the video of that stuff. That's heartbreaking, and
(17:30):
on the face of it, you know, you feel like
this obviously should not be used at all. But then
as we've discussed, you know, the parents over thirty parents
who have been involved with this over the years say
it's the only thing that works in these most difficult
of cases, and it's just so hard to square away
when you hear some of that stuff. You guys did
speak to behavioral health experts obviously who said this negative
(17:53):
reinforcement is not the way to go. It should be
more positive reinforcement. You know, what do they have to
say about this? They called it an obsolete treatment. Several
of the experts we spoke to said that that there
obviously j RC is using a carrot and a stick approach,
and uh and the stick is is the g E. D.
(18:13):
And and they do offer a carrot approach as well,
which is, you know, if you act appropriately at j
r C you earn credits for gifts and presents, and
you get you get the good side as well. And
I think most experts say, um, things have changed a
lot treatments over the last twenty or thirty years, and
(18:37):
and they all point to this positive reinforcement as something
that that most people believe is a better, a better
idea when dealing with these kind of issues. Kevin Monaghan,
Senior producer at NBC News Investigative Unit, Thank you very
much for joining us. Thank you, thanks for having me. Yeah,
(19:03):
that's it for today. Join us on social media at
Daily Dive Pod on both Twitter and Instagram. Leave us comment,
give us a rating, and tell us the stories that
you're interested in. Follow us on I Heart Radio, or
subscribe wherever you get your podcast. This episode of The
Daily divers is produced by Victor Wright and engineered by
Tony Sarrentina. Hi'm Oscar Amirez and this was her Daily
(19:26):
Dive
It's Tuesday, May fourth. I'm Oscar Ramirez in Los Angeles,
and this is the daily dive. Florida has taken another
step in moving on from the coronavirus pandemic. On Monday,
Governor Rhn de Santis signed a bill batting vaccine passports
and an executive order invalidating all remaining local emergency orders,
(00:22):
saying the state is no longer in a state of emergency.
Some mayors were pushing back on the orders. Other lawmakers
argued they were trying to strike a balance of protecting
people and protecting their civil liberty. Mary Ellen, Class Capital
Bureau Chief at the Miami Herald joins us for these
new orders and how they impact the national conversation. Next.
(00:44):
The FDA has banned the use of an electric shock treatment,
but there's still one school using them. The Judge Rottenberg
Educational Center in Massachusetts, which deals with some of the
most difficult developmental and emotional disability cases in the country,
uses what calls a g E D device to shock
students to modify their behavior. Disability rights advocatests and former
(01:05):
residents have spoken out against this practice, but interestingly, some
parents of those currently a role that have received this
treatment supported and say that it's the only thing that works.
Kevin Monaghan, senior producer at the Investigative Unit at NBC News,
joins us for more. It's news without the noise. Let's
dive in. People have certain freedoms and individual liberties to
(01:32):
make decisions for themselves. I also wonder it's like, Okay,
you're gonna do this, and then what give all this information?
Is some big corporation? You want the fox to guard
the henhouse. I mean, give me a breat Joining us
now is Mary Ellen class Miami Herald Capital Bureau Chief.
Thanks for joining us, Mary Ellen, good to be here.
Lord of Governor Ron de Santis has signed a new
(01:54):
order invalidating all remaining local emergency COVID orders. He also
signed a bill into law that would bar businesses and
schools and government entities from requiring what are you know
a lot of people called vaccine passports. So a lot
of movement there, and obviously, you know Rhonda Santisa, rising
star in the GOP, could be setting the stage for
a lot of other states do a lot of the
(02:16):
same here. So Mary Ellen, tell us a little bit
about what we're seeing in these new orders. So it's
very interesting because the governor is kind of making a
big push to push back on what we're seeing in Florida,
and that is a lot of local governments have imposed
stricter um rules and regulations on social distancing, on mask wearing,
(02:40):
on capacity and restaurants than the governor has. The governor
has basically said everything should go back to normal, everything
should be open, people should not be required to wear masks,
And now he's putting it into a into writing with
this order that has just come out. So basically some
of these still orders that could have been set up
(03:02):
our limits on like let's say, for restaurants, for instances,
other businesses, capacity limits, these things. As you mentioned, mask wearing,
social distancing. So with this order, all of that goes
out the window, right. I think the wording that he
used is that the emergency is over now there's no
need for any of this stuff. What's happened is different
parts of the state have watched as the new variants
(03:23):
have have clustered and become more potent than other parts
of the state. Now it appears as though Florida has
seen the number of new cases kind of level off,
but we are still seeing about thirty additional cases every day,
and along with that comes all the additional depths, So
(03:44):
it's not as if COVID has gone away. So I
guess the governor's perception of the emergency being over is
definitely something that is getting some attention because we heard
from mayors in the communities where they have had more
stricterre relations opposing that. What's their reaction been to all
of this? I mean, they're trying to create these orders
(04:07):
for what they're seeing, you know, at that local local level,
what they're seeing in their own cities, and you know,
the governor is saying, you know, no to all of that.
I mean, first off, can the governor supersede their local rules? One?
And then too, you know what, what is their reaction? Then?
Their reaction is we disagree with this, and um nobody
has come forth to say that they're going to challenge
(04:29):
it legally. However, I think that that is likely to
play out. Communities have something in the Florida Constitution that
is home rule authority, which means that they have the
obligation and the opportunity to regulate their community UM with
their own local government. The governor's stepping in on this issue,
(04:50):
could provoke them to provide, um, you know, a legal
challenge and come forward with a legal challenge. The other
thing is the state, as you know is is not
the same and we're not one unilateral you know, everything
isn't treated the same. There are some communities where people
live in closure quarters, we've got a lot more tourist activity,
(05:14):
um and and those are the places that have had
more restrict uh rulings from local government about social distancing.
So they want to have the able ability to have flexibility,
and this takes that flexibility away, right Yeah. I mean
we all saw the pictures and videos coming out of
spring Break when everybody was just kind of going crazy
(05:34):
out there. So definitely, as you mentioned, this would limit them. Okay,
let's talk a little bit about the vaccine passports side
of things, because he had already made an executive order
with regards to that, but now with this new law
they got signed, that makes it permanent. Now, so as
long as a private companies would still be able to
but everybody else pretty much would not be able to
(05:55):
require these vaccine passports. No, private companies are not going
to be allowed to require them either. Um. That's that's
the rub here. So you're a private business and somebody
either works for you or or is a client of yours,
you cannot require them to show proof of vaccination. It's
the same for schools, things, for governments. Now the only
(06:17):
exception is health health care providers and license health care facilities.
Um they can require proof of vaccination if they want to,
but um private companies won't be able to do it.
Which sets up a bit of a class right now
with the cruise ship industry, which is trying to bring
(06:38):
people back and encourage confidence that their cruise ships are safe,
and so the CDC has allowed them to start sailing
out of Florida courts, but they want them to assure
people that everybody who's on board has been vaccinated. Now
the Governor's order basically says they can't do that. So
I think that's been to emerge as another conflict here.
(06:59):
We'll see how that plays out. And we know some
of the stories from the very beginning of the pandemic.
A lot of cruise ships were kind of early outbreak centers.
It's pretty tough right with the country is starting to
open back up. I know the lawmakers there are on
record saying that they're trying to strike a balance protecting
people from the virus protecting people's civil liberties also. And
one of the lawmakers are I thought, had a pretty
(07:21):
good point though, with regards to the vaccines and you know,
the vaccine passport issue, saying we don't have the same
proven history of the same vaccine that we require our
school children to get the argument is we require vaccines
for other stuff, you know, why not this, And they
say that there's a lot of hesitancy with this, and
it's real and it's understandable, and and I do get
that point because we don't know how long the immunity
(07:43):
lasts from these vaccines yet. I mean we've barely just
started using them for you know, a few months now,
so we don't know what the long term effectiveness is.
So I I that is a hard balance to strike there,
for sure. Yeah, I think that is a really good point.
And I almost think that you could take that argument
as a justification for why you might want to proceed
more cautiously and encourage people to wear masks and do
(08:06):
social distancing, because yes, right now it appears as those
of vaccine is very effective. However, we don't know how
long it lasts. And because we this is sort of
in his experimental stage, it does raise the point of
shouldn't you allow people to be cautious if they choose
to be right? Yeah, that was coming from Representative Tom Leak.
(08:28):
I mean he's a Republican as well. He also did
tell people to go out and get the vaccines. But
a good point there on that one. And you know,
what does all of this do for the national conversation?
As I mentioned Rhonda Santist rising star, he's going to
run for re election pretty soon. It seems like that
most likely would be a lock. It seems like he
might have the aspirations for to run for president. Who
(08:50):
knows what foreign President Trump will do. But what does
this all do for the national conversation regarding restrictions, closures,
mask wearing, all of that. People will be watching Florida
and I'll tell you what. Ron De Santis is absolutely
risen in the Poll's done very well nationally because of
this um open everything, hands off approach and um I
(09:15):
think what we're going to see is that red states
and communities that are led by Republican leaders are going
to start embracing this approach. I think the Florida template
is going to be copied elsewhere. Mary Ellen Class, Miami
Herald Capital Bureau Chief, thank you very much for joining us.
Good to be here. Thank you truly shocked me if
(09:45):
I didn't wake up an Nlpeter Butt in a shore
shocked me again. What they're doing is just taking people
have issues and just building more. Joining us now is
Kevin Monaghan, Senior user at NBC News Investigative Unit. Thanks
for joining us, Kevin, thanks for having the oscar. I'm
(10:06):
gonna talk about this really interesting story. There's a fight
over an electric shock treatment at the Judge Rottenberg Educational
Center in Massachusetts. Now, this is a shock treatment that
they used for some of what they call some of
the most difficult cases, having a lot to do with
people with severe autism, some that are nonverbal, some that
(10:27):
are self harming. And they've used this electric shock treatment
for quite some time. Right before the pandemic became official
in March, the FDA actually banned the use of this treatment,
but because of delays and all that, it's still being
used at this facility in Massachusetts. And I mean, it's
just a crazy story. So Kevin, help us walk through
(10:49):
some of the details on this. The j RC is,
as you said, deals with people with with really extreme
developmental disabilities and emotional disorders. And and as you also said,
you know, many of them are known for sort of
you know, injuring themselves perhaps others. So so these are
extreme behaviors that they're dealing with to start with. But
(11:11):
the g e D, the Graduated Electronic Decelerator is basically
what you said. It's a it's a skin shock that
is not used as a as a therapy per se,
but as a way to to modify people's behavior. So um,
it's been used for quite some time on patients who
(11:33):
may be injuring themselves or others. Uh. It is a
backpack that's hooked up to the student and with electrodes.
You know, some are on arms, some are on legs
other parts of the body, and they wear them often
twenty four hours a day, and when they exhibit some
sort of behavior that that they are not supposed to exhibit,
(11:56):
they're shocked. And uh and it is really an a
you know, fairly seemingly extreme, uh, form of managing that behavior. Yeah,
I mean it's especially where that the student themselves have
to wear a backpack with the battery that supplies the shock.
There's just kind of looking through that just kind of
made me shake my head a little bit. But a
lot of these, uh these in these specific instances, these
(12:19):
are court approved treatment plants. So it's not like, you know,
some fringe doctor just going crazy and they're shocking a
bunch of students. This has been court approved and it's
gone through the process. And amazingly, also, the parents of
these students have come forth and said this is the
only treatment that has helped It's helped them regain some
sort of normalcy, and that's really one of the most
(12:43):
interesting parts of this story. You know, we went in
and met thirty plus parents at a round table, and
it's hard not to have sympathy for a parent who's
been dealing with with a child. They're adults now, but
a child who know, maybe this is their third or
fourth or fifth institution that they're at, and they've been
(13:05):
having trouble a lifetime of you know, difficulties, trying to
deal with a son or a daughter who who are
really dealing with with difficulties, you know, injuring staff of
other places. So for some people's parents, this is like
a last stop for them, and they're very supportive of
of the use of the of the device, the g
(13:28):
e D and the treatment, and they say it has
changed their child's life. On the other hand, you pit
that against human rights UH lawyers, activists the United Nations
who say there are alternatives to this, This is not
the way to to solve these problems alone. So it's
(13:49):
a very interesting two sets of groups when you have
parents who have had their children in that in that
institution for many years who are supportive of this practice,
and that's definitely an interesting wrinkle in that whole thing.
Tell me about the involvement of the FDA and then
banning the use of these g e D things. Obviously
there's been delays because of the pandemic and all, and
(14:10):
because of I think the facility is fighting back saying
that you know they ruled wrong on this, but just
tell me about their involvement and just why it's still
being used. So the f d A has been involved
for many years now, UH and and their discussion is
banning a medical device, and they've done it very few
(14:32):
times in the past. So in March of last year,
they finally after many years of looking into it, banned
the device, and they say it's a it's a present
and unreasonable and substantial risk of illness or injury to
a patient or student. As you said at the top,
there are two things that happened. One is that they
(14:55):
had to stay because of the pandemic. The j r
C was given until sp Timber to get these students
off the device, and they said, because their pandemic is
going on to be very difficult for us to do that.
The FDA agreed. So that's one. The other thing is
the j r C is pushing back with the Parents
(15:15):
Association to appeal that process and that that is in
DC right now in the Court of Appeals, and they
are appealing the judgment of the f d A saying
that they do not have the right to ban the
use of a device, not the device itself. It's very complicated,
but they're saying that there are other uses of this
(15:37):
device and uh, for for instance, there's a commercial use
for people who may want to stop smoking using a
skin shock device, and they're saying that FDA cannot pick
and choose those uses. Now, this facility that j r
C does have a history of some scandals with regards
to this g E D electric device. There's stories about that.
(16:01):
You know, some residents being tied down to restraint boards
for hours and shocked over thirty times. There's another one
where a student was shocked seventy seven times, just heartbreaking
lee after a prank caller instructed staff to do so.
I mean, how did those things get through? How does
that happen? Even you mentioned the real two biggest ones
and in inven video surface of Andre mccollins, an eighteen
(16:24):
year old student at the time who was and he
had severe autism and he was um put face down
on a four point board. All his limbs were tied
down or or UH lockdown UM, and he was shocked
thirty one times, the first one for refusing to take
his coat off when asked, and the next thirty for
(16:48):
the behavior he exhibited after the first shock. It really
got people's attention. UM. The second incident that you're talking
about was in and around that same time when a
prank phone call went to one of the houses that
these students are living in, UH saying that they were
a supervisor from JRC, and one of the students was
(17:09):
shocked seventy seven times. That resulted ultimately in the head
of the j r C and the gentleman Dr Matthew
Israel who created this device stepping down. So there have
been some really there have been some some terrible scandals
there as well. I mean, it's just heartbreaking. I saw
some of the video of that stuff. That's heartbreaking, and
(17:30):
on the face of it, you know, you feel like
this obviously should not be used at all. But then
as we've discussed, you know, the parents over thirty parents
who have been involved with this over the years say
it's the only thing that works in these most difficult
of cases, and it's just so hard to square away
when you hear some of that stuff. You guys did
speak to behavioral health experts obviously who said this negative
(17:53):
reinforcement is not the way to go. It should be
more positive reinforcement. You know, what do they have to
say about this? They called it an obsolete treatment. Several
of the experts we spoke to said that that there
obviously j RC is using a carrot and a stick approach,
and uh and the stick is is the g E. D.
(18:13):
And and they do offer a carrot approach as well,
which is, you know, if you act appropriately at j
r C you earn credits for gifts and presents, and
you get you get the good side as well. And
I think most experts say, um, things have changed a
lot treatments over the last twenty or thirty years, and
(18:37):
and they all point to this positive reinforcement as something
that that most people believe is a better, a better
idea when dealing with these kind of issues. Kevin Monaghan,
Senior producer at NBC News Investigative Unit, Thank you very
much for joining us. Thank you, thanks for having me. Yeah,
(19:03):
that's it for today. Join us on social media at
Daily Dive Pod on both Twitter and Instagram. Leave us comment,
give us a rating, and tell us the stories that
you're interested in. Follow us on I Heart Radio, or
subscribe wherever you get your podcast. This episode of The
Daily divers is produced by Victor Wright and engineered by
Tony Sarrentina. Hi'm Oscar Amirez and this was her Daily
(19:26):
Dive
The Daily Dive News
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com