October 1, 2024 • 30 mins
Daniel and Kelly answer a question about whether space can be infinite and finite
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As the US elections approach, it can feel like we're
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I'm Joe Gatto, I'm Steve Byrne.
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We are two cool moms.
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We certainly are, and guess where we could find us now?
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That's right.
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We're an official iHeart podcast and I'm super excited about it.
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I am too.
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I knew it.
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Speaker 3 (02:38):
Hey, Daniel, so, who do you think is going to
figure out the secrets of the universe? Is there, like
somebody that you you know, have been keeping your eye on?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh? Man, I wish I knew the answer to that question.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well, but like, do you think it's someone we already
know about, like a smart person like Lisa Randall or
Ed Witten.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It could be, but my money is on somebody smart,
somebody young, maybe somebody who's listening to this podcast right now.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Whoa so like. How would you feel if it turned
out that, like the big questions weren't answered by you,
but you were upstaged by some like ten year old
after you failed for.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Decades, after failing for decades, I would be relieved if
somebody else came along to figure this stuff out for us.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I feel like that's the right answer. The answer matters
more than the person love it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor
at UC Irvine, and I just desperately want the answers.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I'm a parasitologist at Race University,
and I also desperately want the answers, but the questions
to be about parasites.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
And you're also the Hugo Award winning author of a
nonfiction book. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Thanks. I'll try to non scream too loud that the
trophy arrived, and I am still losing my mind every
time I look at it. I cannot believe that that happened.
But I also can believe that Zach didn't prepare an
acceptance speech, even though the flight to Glasgow takes like
eight hours. He just assumed we weren't gonna win, so
(04:28):
he prepared nothing, and I almost killed him.
Speaker 10 (04:31):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Well, I'm sure his spontaneous speech was even better than
anything he could have written. It was fine, but I
wanted all of you out there to appreciate it. Kelly
is not just one of the hosts on this podcast,
but she's actually an award winning best selling science writer,
so we're grateful to have her here. Thanks very much
for joining us.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh you're the best. Thanks Daniel, I love being.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Here and welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain
the Universe, a production of Iheartrate You in which we
explore everything about the universe, it's ups and it's downs,
it's lefts and its rights, the things that wins the
awards for, and the things that drive physicists crazy. Hopeful
that somebody young out there will figure it all out.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
For us as soon as possible. Guys, get on.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
It, and as part of that process, we want you
to be thinking about the nature of the universe. Yes,
you are relaxing as you fall asleep, or you are
commuting to work and hoping to be educated and entertained,
but this podcast also requires you to do some work
to fit all these ideas into your head and to
write to us when they don't quite click together. If
(05:37):
you have a question about the nature of the universe,
we want to hear it. That's part of the progress
of science. Everybody out there wondering and thinking and trying
to figure this stuff out. So please send me your
questions to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com. You
will definitely hear back from us, and sometimes we choose
those questions to answer or right here on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
And sometimes the questions that you get from people new
to the field are way better than any question you
get at a department seminar with a bunch of pros
in the field, because, like you're not constrained by all
the assumptions that people who have been in the field
for a while have. So we get some pretty great
questions from the listeners.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yes, absolutely we do, and we get questions that I
don't anticipate, and so I hope that these questions line
up with your questions. That these ones we've chosen are
also questions that other folks out there have and want
to hear the answer to. So please don't be shy
if you're thinking of a question, somebody else also wants
to hear the answer, and I need somebody to write
(06:34):
in and send it to me, So please don't be shy.
I love hearing from all of you.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Please keep Daniel company, guys, And.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So today on the podcast, we'll be answering listener questions
number sixty eight who and we are featuring a question
from a young future physicist, Clara from Germany. So without
further ado, here's Clara's question.
Speaker 11 (07:01):
Hello and Clara from Germany, twelve years old and you
listener of your podcast. My question is could it be
possible that the universe is finite in one direction and
incident and all the others? Your podcast is just right
and you two guys can explain so well. Thanks Clara.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So Daniel, when I was twelve years old, I was
sequestered in my bedroom listening to Silverchair and playing the
first three chords to smells like teen Spirit by Nirvana,
but not bothering to learn any of the rest of
the song. I was not pondering the nature of the universe.
So good on you, Clara. What were you doing when
(07:40):
you were twelve, Daniel.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I was reading a lot of science fiction and a
lot of fantasy, and I definitely was pondering the nature
of the universe. I remember trying to think about whether
space was in three dimensions everywhere, or maybe parts of
the universe might have additional dimensions, and really struggling to
get my mind around what that meant, and what would
be like to exist in those dimensions? So, yeah, Clara
(08:02):
and I have a lot in common. Good job, Clara.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Well some of us are late blossoming nerds, I guess,
but what we get there eventually. So give us some
background on what we know about this question so far, Daniel.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, Clara's question touches on two really important ideas, and
she's doing something I love, which is trying to bring
two ideas together. You know, physics is about unification of
your understanding. It's not like chemistry where you use this
equation over here and that equation over there, and it's
just like these patches of understanding and physics we hope
to have a complete cloth, you know, to stitch everything
together into one idea. So it's really important that when
(08:38):
you hear related ideas, you try to understand how they
fit together. And that's what she's doing here and here
the related ideas are about the size and the scope
of the universe, like is the universe infinite or is
the universe finite? And when you just imagine space and
the whole universe, you probably just fill your mind with
blackness and you imagine that it goes on forever, that
(08:59):
you you could shoot a laser beam and it would
just fly on forever and ever until it hits something.
But if the universe was empty, it would just go
on forever. You can imagine these like dotted lines of x, y,
and z dimensions just stretching out to infinity, limited only
by your imagination. That's an infinite universe. And we don't
know if the universe is infinite. But such an infinite universe,
(09:22):
though it's a little bit weird to hold in your mind,
is actually one of the most natural ideas for how
the universe might be shaped.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Is this a question that you think will have an
answer to in your lifetime or what will we be
wondering if the universe is finite or infinite three hundred
years from now.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Wow? Awesome. It's hard to prove that the universe is
infinite because if it goes on forever, then you need
infinite data to prove that. But we might be able
to prove the opposite. We might be able to prove
that it's not infinite because you could discover that the
universe is finite. Because the extent of the universe is
(09:58):
connected to another question about the shape of the universe,
like if the universe is flat, and by flat, we
don't mean like a two D sheet of paper. We
mean the two parallel lines will not cross. It's a
three dimensional version of flatness. But if the universe is curved,
the two parallel lines either diverge or do cross over
(10:18):
each other, and again curved in three dimensions in a
sort of general relative physics sort of way. That means
that the universe could be finite, that it could loop
around on itself again in a weird three dimensional way,
not exactly the same way as like the surface of
a sphere loops around on itself, but in analogy to that. So,
if we discover that space is curved, that suggests that
(10:39):
space might be finite, and so we can't prove that
it's infinite, but we might discover that it is finite.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
WHOA, I feel like I'm lost in thought here. So
if it's curved, then what's on the other side of
the curve.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
No, this is a big mental pothole that we should
totally address, because if you imagine the universe as finite
and curved, you probably have in your mind something like
sphere a ball.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Right, I'm thinking of a donut because I'm hungry.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
All right, it could also be a donut, right, But
the problem is as soon as you name some object
like that, you imagine it with its boundaries inside some
other vast mental space. Like if I close my eyes
and I think of a donut, it's hovering in some blackness,
and that's a mistake. I've like sketched around it some
empty space. But when we talk about the universe as finite,
(11:25):
we don't mean like there's a bunch of stuff and
around it is empty space. We mean finite including space.
I mean that's all there is. Don't sketch anything around it,
don't fill in that mental space with something. The finite
universe is limited in size, but it doesn't have an edge,
a boundary. Every point on it is exactly the same.
It's very, very difficult to think about. It's very counterintuitive.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, I feel like the world is split into people
who think that that's fun and people who just are
really frustrated. They might be a different camps there.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
We should get too clear's question, But first we have
to take a quick break.
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Is the US elections approach. It can feel like we're
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hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share with the science
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people think.
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Speaker 3 (17:17):
What do we think let's follow up on Clara's idea.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, so Clara's question is porque nolos dos?
Speaker 9 (17:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
She's like, why can't it be infinite and finite? And
she's saying, what if you have a few dimensions in
which it's infinite, but other dimensions in which it's finite.
So imagine, for example, like an infinite cylinder. In one
dimension it goes on forever, but in the other dimensions
it's limited. You know, it's like a centimeter wide or
a meter wide or something. So you can picture geometric
(17:47):
shapes which are like this, that are infinite in one
dimension and finite in others. And she's basically asking, could
our universe be like that? Could it have two different
kinds of dimensions, some that are infinite and some that
are finite.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Are there any current theories that encapsulate that, like has
she identified a theory that physicists are working with right
now as far as you know, or is this a
totally new way of thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Claire's actually thought her way into a very popular area
of research right now, because it's totally possible to have
a geometry of the universe where you have some infinite
dimensions and some finite there's no theoretical reasons saying you
can't do that. And first let's talk about like how
to try, frustratingly to visualize that in your mind, and
(18:33):
then let's talk about why theorists are excited about this
kind of idea. So we know that there are three
dimensions in our universe X, y, and z. These are
the normal spatial dimensions, and let's just say those are infinite,
that they go on forever. If you shine a laser
beam out into space, if you don't hit some other
galaxy or some alien eyeball, it's just going to go
on forever. And if you shine two, they're going to
(18:54):
be in parallel forever. Right, So that's infinite flat space. Okay,
so hold that in your mind. Now we want to
add a fourth dimension, and we don't want to add
a fourth infinite dimension. Some new direction you could shoot
your laser beam, which is already very difficult to put
into your three D mental space. Let's add a fourth
finite dimension. And so the sort of two mental ways
(19:16):
to visualize this one is take your three D infinite
space and at every point, replace that point with a loop,
like a little circle, you know, like a bracelet.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Essentially, I'm getting angry.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
You're getting angry.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, I'm kidding. Let's go for it, all right, And
lots of loops in infinite space.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yes, exactly. So instead of space being filled with points,
now it's filled with loops, and where you are along
that loop is essentially the fourth dimension. So now you
have like four numbers in your address, three numbers to
tell you where you are in the usual three D
space and one to tell you how far you are
along this loop. So now space is like more complex.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Is there a way to help me pick that? Like,
like I move in a direction and I get stuck
at a loop and it's like being in a whirlpool.
Or is that extra dimension time and it determines how
long I'm there?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
The extra dimension is not time, it's space, right, OK.
And you could still move through three D space, jumping
from loop to loop the same way you can like
move only in x without changing your y value. An
alternative way to think about it instead of an infinite
space filled with loops is to take a single loop
and at every point put infinite space in it. So
(20:30):
imagine like a big loop of infinite spaces instead of
an infinite space of loops. It doesn't really matter which
order you think about it. Geometrically, it's the same, and
both of them will give you a migraine because it's
really about four dimensions at all.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
But that's my best of til it all.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Especially in an audio format, this is challenging to describe,
but the bottom line is, yes, Claia, it's possible to
build a geometry where space is finite in some dimension
an infinite in others. And this is actually very exciting
theoretically because it might explain one of the open puzzles
in physics, which is why gravity is so much weaker
(21:10):
than the other forces. Like, if you think of gravity
as a force, we know that it's much much weaker
than all the other forces out there, and like the
canonical example is that you can hold up a paper
clip using a kitchen magnet, which is counteracting the entire
gravitational force of the Earth, right a huge mass, or
you know, like a toddler's legs are strong enough to
(21:31):
overcome the gravity of the Earth and learn to jump.
That's electro mechanical, and they're so cute and squishy, I know,
And they're defeating an entire planet's gravity.
Speaker 9 (21:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So gravity is a crazy weak force, and that's a
puzzle for physicists because we like things to be in balance.
We like to understand why things are out of balance
if they are. So the explanation is, maybe the reason
gravity is weak is because it's special. Maybe the universe
has a bunch of other dimensions, but like Clara suggests,
(22:01):
their loops and their small little dimensions, their loops are
like a centimeter or even a millimeter or even smaller.
And so what happens is that gravity actually isn't weaker
than the other forces. It's just the same strength, but
it feels weaker to us because at distances bigger than
a centimeter or bigger than these dimensions, it's already sort
of bled out into these other dimensions. It spreads out
(22:23):
in these other dimensions, and so it seems weak to us.
So that's like a cool explanation for another puzzle in
particle physics, if we could prove that the universe did
have additional dimensions that were finite.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
So one of my favorite parts of doing science is
designing experiments. Is there an experiment you could design to test, like,
for example, to look for those loops? Or this is
just too hard because it's all too big and it
goes on too long.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
No, there absolutely is an experiment, but you're not gonna
like it.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
You don't know me, but you probably know me well enough.
I'm probably not gonna like it, but go for it.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I mean, it might destroy the planet. So if you're
cool with that, then yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
No, no, my kids are on this planet. You know
how I feel about when you endanger my kids.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So the idea is to do an experiment that tests
whether gravity gets really strong when things get close together.
And one way you can do that is try to
just measure the gravity of things that are really close together,
Like take two balls and put them a millimeter apart
and measure their gravity. This turns out to be really,
really hard because gravity is so weak and anything you
(23:29):
build is going to have really weak gravity. And there's
some real experimental Virtuoso's at University of Washington who've been
doing these kinds of experiments, and it's really amazing. They
have to isolate it from like anytime somebody coughs three
blocks away, or like a dog wags its tail and
changes the you know, the airflow or whatever. It's ridiculous
what they have to buffer themselves against because they're looking
(23:51):
for such a tiny effect. On the other hand, we
can also do it at the large Hagon collider because
if gravity gets really powerful when things get close together. Hey,
that's what we do all day. We take protons, we
put them really close together. And so the idea is
maybe sometimes when protons get really close together, their gravity
gets really strong and they make a tiny black hole.
(24:13):
And so these extra dimensions could enhance the power of
gravity at short distances and give us a chance to
make more black holes than we otherwise could, maybe even
seeing one evaporate in our detector, and of course not
destroying the earth and keeping Kelly's children alive and healthy.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Thank you, my children in particular. Wait, so if we're
worried about dimensions, does creating a black hole is that,
you know, sort of analogous to the loops in the
dimensions that you were talking about.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
The black hole, if it exists, would also exist in
those other dimensions. But ideas that those dimensions also weaken
the gravity for things that are further apart than the
size of those dimensions, and so you can create a
black hole by getting things really really close. That's sort
of the idea. We've never seen a black holes large
a drunk light, So we have no experimental proof of
(25:02):
any of these additional spatial dimensions. There's another way you
could look for them, which is to look for weird
echos of the particles that we have seen. Like if
the electron exists in our universe, there might be an
echo of the electron in which it's like vibrating in
this additional dimension, and so it would look like an
electron but with more mass, like a heavier version of
(25:23):
the electron, and because of resonance effects, you would get
a bunch of these. You would get like one that's heavier,
and when that's twice is heavy and three times is heavy,
you get this whole tower of weird heavy electrons. So
we've looked for those and haven't seen them. So yes,
we can look for these things. No, we have no
evidence that the universe does have additional finite dimensions on
(25:45):
top of the three probably infinite dimensions that we know about.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
And finding another dimension doesn't immediately answer the question. Is
the universe finite in one direction and infinite in the other, Right,
you'd still need additional that's just part of it.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, that's right. First step is discover the other dimension.
Second is to measure the curvature of that dimension. If
it's highly curved, then it probably is a loop. Then
it probably is finite. Clara wins the Nobel Prize. If
it turns out to be infinite, then like that blows
our minds in a whole other way. Like another infinite
dimension in our universe.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
That would be crazy or infuriating.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Or headache inducing.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Now it would be cool.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
All right. So that's the answer for Clara. Yes, the
universe could have finite and infinite dimensions at the same time,
as much as that's difficult to think about. And while
we are doing experiments to search for these additional dimensions,
we do not yet have any evidence that they exist.
But we're going to keep looking to hope to provide
Clara with a Nobel Prize in the future.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, thank you for this amazing question.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
And thanks to everybody out there who thinks about the universe,
wonders about it, wants to understand it, and writes to us.
Send us your questions to questions at Dangel and Jorge
dot com. Everybody gets an answer and some people get
highlighted on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Woo, it's like getting a hugo.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yes, you can put it on your CP for sure.
All right, Thanks very much Kelly for helping me answer
these questions.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Thanks so much for having me on the show. It
was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
All right. Everyone, tune in next time for more science
and curiosity. Come find us on social media where we
answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, instat,
and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel
and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.
(27:42):
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Speaker 2 (00:28):
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Speaker 3 (00:43):
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Speaker 2 (00:44):
To powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture.
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experts from across the healthcare community. WebMD reveals how today's
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As the US elections approach, it can feel like we're
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Speaker 7 (01:48):
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our politics, and that we need to do better and
that we can be better.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
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Speaker 8 (02:00):
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Speaker 9 (02:02):
We are two cool moms.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
We certainly are, and guess where we could find us now?
Speaker 8 (02:06):
Oh, I don't know the iHeart podcast network.
Speaker 9 (02:09):
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Speaker 8 (02:09):
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Speaker 7 (02:13):
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but now it's even more funner and cooler and heartier.
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Speaker 1 (02:22):
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Speaker 9 (02:25):
We're here at iHeart.
Speaker 8 (02:25):
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Speaker 3 (02:38):
Hey, Daniel, so, who do you think is going to
figure out the secrets of the universe? Is there, like
somebody that you you know, have been keeping your eye on?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh? Man, I wish I knew the answer to that question.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well, but like, do you think it's someone we already
know about, like a smart person like Lisa Randall or
Ed Witten.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It could be, but my money is on somebody smart,
somebody young, maybe somebody who's listening to this podcast right now.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Whoa so like. How would you feel if it turned
out that, like the big questions weren't answered by you,
but you were upstaged by some like ten year old
after you failed for.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Decades, after failing for decades, I would be relieved if
somebody else came along to figure this stuff out for us.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I feel like that's the right answer. The answer matters
more than the person love it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor
at UC Irvine, and I just desperately want the answers.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I'm a parasitologist at Race University,
and I also desperately want the answers, but the questions
to be about parasites.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
And you're also the Hugo Award winning author of a
nonfiction book. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Thanks. I'll try to non scream too loud that the
trophy arrived, and I am still losing my mind every
time I look at it. I cannot believe that that happened.
But I also can believe that Zach didn't prepare an
acceptance speech, even though the flight to Glasgow takes like
eight hours. He just assumed we weren't gonna win, so
(04:28):
he prepared nothing, and I almost killed him.
Speaker 10 (04:31):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Well, I'm sure his spontaneous speech was even better than
anything he could have written. It was fine, but I
wanted all of you out there to appreciate it. Kelly
is not just one of the hosts on this podcast,
but she's actually an award winning best selling science writer,
so we're grateful to have her here. Thanks very much
for joining us.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh you're the best. Thanks Daniel, I love being.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Here and welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain
the Universe, a production of Iheartrate You in which we
explore everything about the universe, it's ups and it's downs,
it's lefts and its rights, the things that wins the
awards for, and the things that drive physicists crazy. Hopeful
that somebody young out there will figure it all out.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
For us as soon as possible. Guys, get on.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
It, and as part of that process, we want you
to be thinking about the nature of the universe. Yes,
you are relaxing as you fall asleep, or you are
commuting to work and hoping to be educated and entertained,
but this podcast also requires you to do some work
to fit all these ideas into your head and to
write to us when they don't quite click together. If
(05:37):
you have a question about the nature of the universe,
we want to hear it. That's part of the progress
of science. Everybody out there wondering and thinking and trying
to figure this stuff out. So please send me your
questions to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com. You
will definitely hear back from us, and sometimes we choose
those questions to answer or right here on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
And sometimes the questions that you get from people new
to the field are way better than any question you
get at a department seminar with a bunch of pros
in the field, because, like you're not constrained by all
the assumptions that people who have been in the field
for a while have. So we get some pretty great
questions from the listeners.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yes, absolutely we do, and we get questions that I
don't anticipate, and so I hope that these questions line
up with your questions. That these ones we've chosen are
also questions that other folks out there have and want
to hear the answer to. So please don't be shy
if you're thinking of a question, somebody else also wants
to hear the answer, and I need somebody to write
(06:34):
in and send it to me, So please don't be shy.
I love hearing from all of you.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Please keep Daniel company, guys, And.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So today on the podcast, we'll be answering listener questions
number sixty eight who and we are featuring a question
from a young future physicist, Clara from Germany. So without
further ado, here's Clara's question.
Speaker 11 (07:01):
Hello and Clara from Germany, twelve years old and you
listener of your podcast. My question is could it be
possible that the universe is finite in one direction and
incident and all the others? Your podcast is just right
and you two guys can explain so well. Thanks Clara.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
So Daniel, when I was twelve years old, I was
sequestered in my bedroom listening to Silverchair and playing the
first three chords to smells like teen Spirit by Nirvana,
but not bothering to learn any of the rest of
the song. I was not pondering the nature of the universe.
So good on you, Clara. What were you doing when
(07:40):
you were twelve, Daniel.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I was reading a lot of science fiction and a
lot of fantasy, and I definitely was pondering the nature
of the universe. I remember trying to think about whether
space was in three dimensions everywhere, or maybe parts of
the universe might have additional dimensions, and really struggling to
get my mind around what that meant, and what would
be like to exist in those dimensions? So, yeah, Clara
(08:02):
and I have a lot in common. Good job, Clara.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Well some of us are late blossoming nerds, I guess,
but what we get there eventually. So give us some
background on what we know about this question so far, Daniel.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, Clara's question touches on two really important ideas, and
she's doing something I love, which is trying to bring
two ideas together. You know, physics is about unification of
your understanding. It's not like chemistry where you use this
equation over here and that equation over there, and it's
just like these patches of understanding and physics we hope
to have a complete cloth, you know, to stitch everything
together into one idea. So it's really important that when
(08:38):
you hear related ideas, you try to understand how they
fit together. And that's what she's doing here and here
the related ideas are about the size and the scope
of the universe, like is the universe infinite or is
the universe finite? And when you just imagine space and
the whole universe, you probably just fill your mind with
blackness and you imagine that it goes on forever, that
(08:59):
you you could shoot a laser beam and it would
just fly on forever and ever until it hits something.
But if the universe was empty, it would just go
on forever. You can imagine these like dotted lines of x, y,
and z dimensions just stretching out to infinity, limited only
by your imagination. That's an infinite universe. And we don't
know if the universe is infinite. But such an infinite universe,
(09:22):
though it's a little bit weird to hold in your mind,
is actually one of the most natural ideas for how
the universe might be shaped.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Is this a question that you think will have an
answer to in your lifetime or what will we be
wondering if the universe is finite or infinite three hundred
years from now.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Wow? Awesome. It's hard to prove that the universe is
infinite because if it goes on forever, then you need
infinite data to prove that. But we might be able
to prove the opposite. We might be able to prove
that it's not infinite because you could discover that the
universe is finite. Because the extent of the universe is
(09:58):
connected to another question about the shape of the universe,
like if the universe is flat, and by flat, we
don't mean like a two D sheet of paper. We
mean the two parallel lines will not cross. It's a
three dimensional version of flatness. But if the universe is curved,
the two parallel lines either diverge or do cross over
(10:18):
each other, and again curved in three dimensions in a
sort of general relative physics sort of way. That means
that the universe could be finite, that it could loop
around on itself again in a weird three dimensional way,
not exactly the same way as like the surface of
a sphere loops around on itself, but in analogy to that. So,
if we discover that space is curved, that suggests that
(10:39):
space might be finite, and so we can't prove that
it's infinite, but we might discover that it is finite.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
WHOA, I feel like I'm lost in thought here. So
if it's curved, then what's on the other side of
the curve.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
No, this is a big mental pothole that we should
totally address, because if you imagine the universe as finite
and curved, you probably have in your mind something like
sphere a ball.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Right, I'm thinking of a donut because I'm hungry.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
All right, it could also be a donut, right, But
the problem is as soon as you name some object
like that, you imagine it with its boundaries inside some
other vast mental space. Like if I close my eyes
and I think of a donut, it's hovering in some blackness,
and that's a mistake. I've like sketched around it some
empty space. But when we talk about the universe as finite,
(11:25):
we don't mean like there's a bunch of stuff and
around it is empty space. We mean finite including space.
I mean that's all there is. Don't sketch anything around it,
don't fill in that mental space with something. The finite
universe is limited in size, but it doesn't have an edge,
a boundary. Every point on it is exactly the same.
It's very, very difficult to think about. It's very counterintuitive.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, I feel like the world is split into people
who think that that's fun and people who just are
really frustrated. They might be a different camps there.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
We should get too clear's question, But first we have
to take a quick break.
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Speaker 10 (13:07):
I'm buzs Knight and I'm the host of the Taking
a Walk podcast music History on.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Foot John Oates Great songs endured, and I'm very proud
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Speaker 10 (13:19):
The podcast is an audio diary of insightful conversations with
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Speaker 12 (13:27):
The basic connection that I had with someone that was
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Speaker 10 (13:31):
The Whiskey was David Crosby.
Speaker 12 (13:33):
David I met David and Steven and Graham kind of
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Speaker 10 (13:59):
Listen to the Taken a Walk podcast on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Hey, I'm Jackie Thomas, the host of a brand new
Black Effect original series, black Lit, the podcast for diving
deep into the rich world of black literature. I'm Jackie Thomas,
and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant
community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories.
(14:27):
Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who
listen to audio books while commuting or reading errands, for
those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge. Between
the chapters, from thought provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll
explore the stories.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
That shape our culture.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
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bring their words to life. To black lit on the
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Speaker 4 (15:07):
I'm doctor Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast.
Is the US elections approach. It can feel like we're
angrier and more divided than ever, but in a new
hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share with the science
it really shows that we're surprisingly more united than most
people think.
Speaker 7 (15:26):
We all know something is wrong in our culture, in
our politics, and that we need to do better, and
that we can do better with.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
The help of Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki.
Speaker 9 (15:35):
It's really tragic.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
If cynicism were appeal, it'd be a poison.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with,
are more generous than we assume.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
My assumption, my feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
My hunch is that a lot of us are actually
looking for a way to disagree and still be in relationships.
Speaker 6 (15:53):
With each other.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
All that on the Happiness Lab, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 13 (16:08):
Hey, I'm Bruce Bosi on my podcast Table for two.
We have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best
guest you could possibly ask for, people like Matt Boehmer.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Thank you for that introduction. I'm going to slip you,
slip you a couple of twenties under the table, hold on,
Emma Roberts.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
When it came into my email inbox, I was like, Okay,
I know I'm gonna love this so much that I
don't even want to read it because if I can't
be in it, I'm gonna be bums.
Speaker 13 (16:32):
And Colin Jost, you know your wife was the first guest.
Speaker 7 (16:36):
It's Table for two, and.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
It's come full circle as long as they do better
than her.
Speaker 13 (16:40):
On Table for two is a bit different from other
interview shows. We sit down at a great restaurant for
a meal, maybe a glass of rose, and the story
start flowing. Our second season is airing right now, so
you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate, surprising,
and often hilarious. Listen to Table for two with First
(17:01):
BOSSI and the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
What do we think let's follow up on Clara's idea.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, so Clara's question is porque nolos dos?
Speaker 9 (17:24):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
She's like, why can't it be infinite and finite? And
she's saying, what if you have a few dimensions in
which it's infinite, but other dimensions in which it's finite.
So imagine, for example, like an infinite cylinder. In one
dimension it goes on forever, but in the other dimensions
it's limited. You know, it's like a centimeter wide or
a meter wide or something. So you can picture geometric
(17:47):
shapes which are like this, that are infinite in one
dimension and finite in others. And she's basically asking, could
our universe be like that? Could it have two different
kinds of dimensions, some that are infinite and some that
are finite.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Are there any current theories that encapsulate that, like has
she identified a theory that physicists are working with right
now as far as you know, or is this a
totally new way of thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Claire's actually thought her way into a very popular area
of research right now, because it's totally possible to have
a geometry of the universe where you have some infinite
dimensions and some finite there's no theoretical reasons saying you
can't do that. And first let's talk about like how
to try, frustratingly to visualize that in your mind, and
(18:33):
then let's talk about why theorists are excited about this
kind of idea. So we know that there are three
dimensions in our universe X, y, and z. These are
the normal spatial dimensions, and let's just say those are infinite,
that they go on forever. If you shine a laser
beam out into space, if you don't hit some other
galaxy or some alien eyeball, it's just going to go
on forever. And if you shine two, they're going to
(18:54):
be in parallel forever. Right, So that's infinite flat space. Okay,
so hold that in your mind. Now we want to
add a fourth dimension, and we don't want to add
a fourth infinite dimension. Some new direction you could shoot
your laser beam, which is already very difficult to put
into your three D mental space. Let's add a fourth
finite dimension. And so the sort of two mental ways
(19:16):
to visualize this one is take your three D infinite
space and at every point, replace that point with a loop,
like a little circle, you know, like a bracelet.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Essentially, I'm getting angry.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
You're getting angry.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah, I'm kidding. Let's go for it, all right, And
lots of loops in infinite space.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yes, exactly. So instead of space being filled with points,
now it's filled with loops, and where you are along
that loop is essentially the fourth dimension. So now you
have like four numbers in your address, three numbers to
tell you where you are in the usual three D
space and one to tell you how far you are
along this loop. So now space is like more complex.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Is there a way to help me pick that? Like,
like I move in a direction and I get stuck
at a loop and it's like being in a whirlpool.
Or is that extra dimension time and it determines how
long I'm there?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
The extra dimension is not time, it's space, right, OK.
And you could still move through three D space, jumping
from loop to loop the same way you can like
move only in x without changing your y value. An
alternative way to think about it instead of an infinite
space filled with loops is to take a single loop
and at every point put infinite space in it. So
(20:30):
imagine like a big loop of infinite spaces instead of
an infinite space of loops. It doesn't really matter which
order you think about it. Geometrically, it's the same, and
both of them will give you a migraine because it's
really about four dimensions at all.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
But that's my best of til it all.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Especially in an audio format, this is challenging to describe,
but the bottom line is, yes, Claia, it's possible to
build a geometry where space is finite in some dimension
an infinite in others. And this is actually very exciting
theoretically because it might explain one of the open puzzles
in physics, which is why gravity is so much weaker
(21:10):
than the other forces. Like, if you think of gravity
as a force, we know that it's much much weaker
than all the other forces out there, and like the
canonical example is that you can hold up a paper
clip using a kitchen magnet, which is counteracting the entire
gravitational force of the Earth, right a huge mass, or
you know, like a toddler's legs are strong enough to
(21:31):
overcome the gravity of the Earth and learn to jump.
That's electro mechanical, and they're so cute and squishy, I know,
And they're defeating an entire planet's gravity.
Speaker 9 (21:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So gravity is a crazy weak force, and that's a
puzzle for physicists because we like things to be in balance.
We like to understand why things are out of balance
if they are. So the explanation is, maybe the reason
gravity is weak is because it's special. Maybe the universe
has a bunch of other dimensions, but like Clara suggests,
(22:01):
their loops and their small little dimensions, their loops are
like a centimeter or even a millimeter or even smaller.
And so what happens is that gravity actually isn't weaker
than the other forces. It's just the same strength, but
it feels weaker to us because at distances bigger than
a centimeter or bigger than these dimensions, it's already sort
of bled out into these other dimensions. It spreads out
(22:23):
in these other dimensions, and so it seems weak to us.
So that's like a cool explanation for another puzzle in
particle physics, if we could prove that the universe did
have additional dimensions that were finite.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
So one of my favorite parts of doing science is
designing experiments. Is there an experiment you could design to test, like,
for example, to look for those loops? Or this is
just too hard because it's all too big and it
goes on too long.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
No, there absolutely is an experiment, but you're not gonna
like it.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
You don't know me, but you probably know me well enough.
I'm probably not gonna like it, but go for it.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I mean, it might destroy the planet. So if you're
cool with that, then yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
No, no, my kids are on this planet. You know
how I feel about when you endanger my kids.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So the idea is to do an experiment that tests
whether gravity gets really strong when things get close together.
And one way you can do that is try to
just measure the gravity of things that are really close together,
Like take two balls and put them a millimeter apart
and measure their gravity. This turns out to be really,
really hard because gravity is so weak and anything you
(23:29):
build is going to have really weak gravity. And there's
some real experimental Virtuoso's at University of Washington who've been
doing these kinds of experiments, and it's really amazing. They
have to isolate it from like anytime somebody coughs three
blocks away, or like a dog wags its tail and
changes the you know, the airflow or whatever. It's ridiculous
what they have to buffer themselves against because they're looking
(23:51):
for such a tiny effect. On the other hand, we
can also do it at the large Hagon collider because
if gravity gets really powerful when things get close together. Hey,
that's what we do all day. We take protons, we
put them really close together. And so the idea is
maybe sometimes when protons get really close together, their gravity
gets really strong and they make a tiny black hole.
(24:13):
And so these extra dimensions could enhance the power of
gravity at short distances and give us a chance to
make more black holes than we otherwise could, maybe even
seeing one evaporate in our detector, and of course not
destroying the earth and keeping Kelly's children alive and healthy.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Thank you, my children in particular. Wait, so if we're
worried about dimensions, does creating a black hole is that,
you know, sort of analogous to the loops in the
dimensions that you were talking about.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
The black hole, if it exists, would also exist in
those other dimensions. But ideas that those dimensions also weaken
the gravity for things that are further apart than the
size of those dimensions, and so you can create a
black hole by getting things really really close. That's sort
of the idea. We've never seen a black holes large
a drunk light, So we have no experimental proof of
(25:02):
any of these additional spatial dimensions. There's another way you
could look for them, which is to look for weird
echos of the particles that we have seen. Like if
the electron exists in our universe, there might be an
echo of the electron in which it's like vibrating in
this additional dimension, and so it would look like an
electron but with more mass, like a heavier version of
(25:23):
the electron, and because of resonance effects, you would get
a bunch of these. You would get like one that's heavier,
and when that's twice is heavy and three times is heavy,
you get this whole tower of weird heavy electrons. So
we've looked for those and haven't seen them. So yes,
we can look for these things. No, we have no
evidence that the universe does have additional finite dimensions on
(25:45):
top of the three probably infinite dimensions that we know about.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
And finding another dimension doesn't immediately answer the question. Is
the universe finite in one direction and infinite in the other, Right,
you'd still need additional that's just part of it.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, that's right. First step is discover the other dimension.
Second is to measure the curvature of that dimension. If
it's highly curved, then it probably is a loop. Then
it probably is finite. Clara wins the Nobel Prize. If
it turns out to be infinite, then like that blows
our minds in a whole other way. Like another infinite
dimension in our universe.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
That would be crazy or infuriating.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Or headache inducing.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Now it would be cool.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
All right. So that's the answer for Clara. Yes, the
universe could have finite and infinite dimensions at the same time,
as much as that's difficult to think about. And while
we are doing experiments to search for these additional dimensions,
we do not yet have any evidence that they exist.
But we're going to keep looking to hope to provide
Clara with a Nobel Prize in the future.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, thank you for this amazing question.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
And thanks to everybody out there who thinks about the universe,
wonders about it, wants to understand it, and writes to us.
Send us your questions to questions at Dangel and Jorge
dot com. Everybody gets an answer and some people get
highlighted on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Woo, it's like getting a hugo.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yes, you can put it on your CP for sure.
All right, Thanks very much Kelly for helping me answer
these questions.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Thanks so much for having me on the show. It
was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
All right. Everyone, tune in next time for more science
and curiosity. Come find us on social media where we
answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, instat,
and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel
and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.
(27:42):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you
pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably
not thinking about the environmental impact. The people in the
dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day
(28:03):
to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources,
and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is US Dairy
tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn
the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,
and electric cars. Visit usdairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to
learn more.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Hey, I'm Jacklie Thomas, the host of a brand new
Black Effects original series, black Lit, the podcast for diving
deep into the rich world of black literature. Black Lit
is for the page turners, for those who listen to
audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a
busy day. From thought provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll
explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black
(28:46):
Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by diet Coke.
I'm doctor Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast.
Is the US election approach? It can feel like we're
angrier and more divided than ever, But in a new
copule season of my podcast, I'll share with the science
really shows that we're surprisingly more united than most people.
Speaker 7 (29:13):
Think we all know something is wrong in our culture
and our politics, and that we need to do better
and that we can be better.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
From tips for healthy living to the latest medical breakthroughs.
WebMD's Health Discovered podcast keeps you up to date on
today's most important health issues. Through in depth conversations with
experts from across the healthcare community. WebMD reveals how today's
health news will impact your life tomorrow.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
It's not that people don't know that exercise is healthy.
It's just that people don't know why it's healthy, and
we're struggling to try to help people help themselves in
each other.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Listen to WebMD Health Discovered on the iHeartRadio app, or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 8 (29:57):
I'm Joe Gatto, I'm Steve Byrne.
Speaker 9 (30:00):
Two Cool Moms.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
We certainly are and guess where we could find us now?
Speaker 8 (30:03):
Oh, I don't know the iHeart podcast network. That's right,
We're an official iHeart podcast and I'm super excited about it.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
I am too.
Speaker 8 (30:10):
I thought Two Cool Moms was such a fun podcast,
but now it's even more funner and cooler and heartier.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
That's right, it's more ieheartier.
Speaker 7 (30:19):
I knew it.
Speaker 8 (30:21):
Check your heart rate.
Speaker 9 (30:22):
We're here at iHeart.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, you could find us wherever you listen to. Your
podcasts are on the iHeartRadio app.
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