July 30, 2021 • 57 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the I Heart Radio and Coast to Coast
a Paranormal podcast Network. Now get ready for another episode
of Dark Becomes Light with Heidi Halls. The thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host our thoughts and opinions only,
and do not necessarily reflect those of I Heart Media,
I Heart Radio, Coast to Coast a Out, employees of
(00:23):
premier networks, or their sponsors and associates. You are encouraged
to do the proper amount of research yourself, depending on
the subject matter and your needs. You are listening to
(00:51):
Dark Becomes Light with Me, Heidi Hollis on the I
Heart Radio and Coast to Coast a M Paranormal Podcast Network.
Welcome to my show. Remember each week, this is the
place you come if you want to have your experiences
(01:12):
about anything out of the ordinary be expressed, explained, give insight,
or receive it. I want you to feel welcome, So
just go to my main website Shadow Folks dot com
or Heidi Hollis dot com and tell me what's going
on out there and I will share it here on
(01:33):
the air. Or if you want to be a guest
on this program, you're also welcome to do that. As well.
Today is going to be a special show. As they
all are, right, we have a good time on this
program just talking about these things as we would with
any other topic. Humanly flawed sent to humor on top
(01:54):
of it, I hope. Anyways, we're all making ways in
this world. Today, we're going to explore the topic of synesthesia. Now,
what synesthesia is I'm going to have my guests, Patricia
Lynn Duffy explain after this first break. But it's something
that's been scientifically proven that at least four percent of
(02:16):
us have, and it is an extra level of sensory
input that we receive in this world. How we perceive it,
how we experience it, and we're all individuals. We all
have unique DNA for a reason, so we also interpret
the world differently. But there's a way to track synesthesia scientifically,
(02:40):
and that is what makes this even more precious to
all of us to know that we have these abilities,
We do have something that it's worth exploring, worth taking
those extra steps. And I'm going to share a little
bit about myself and my steps into synesthesia. I have
(03:00):
had Maureen Sieberg on this program sharing about her experiences,
her books, and she also interviewed me for one of
her articles in Psychology Today and her blog called Sensorium.
And now to share a little bit more about what
synesthesia is like for myself, because there's there's a ton
(03:23):
of different categories and I had never heard of it.
I had never had it explained to myself prior to
being connected to Maureen Sieberg, and I have always had
this understanding, this connection to what people would call inanimate objects.
I never saw a barrier, and as a kid they
(03:44):
might say, oh, you're just somebody with an act of imagination.
For myself, it was just known and I didn't feel
like I had to explain or even express it. It
was just there. And that seemed to transfer over from
you know, your teddy bear having a name and and
you have conversations as a kid, to oh, I'm going
(04:07):
to hit this volleyball, and to communicate and have this
understanding I'm going to hit you now, would you mind
hitting your mark? That was the communication that I always
seem to have And it wasn't like I had conversations.
It was just an understanding and uh, almost an acknowledgement too.
(04:29):
And it's hard to explain. But then you get something
like a computer, and a computer has a lot of
different components to it, and it just adds to the personality,
much like, hey, you might give your car a name,
you know, and it's like, doesn't have a personality, doesn't
have a certain trick to it to get it to
move the right direction, that kind of thing. But again,
it was nothing that I expressed as nothing I explained.
(04:53):
But then I noticed that sometimes, as a lot of
people who are in the paranormal world, we might exp
various street light inhibition, like the street lights will go
out when you're around it, and people call those people sliders. Well,
that happened to me all the time. And then you
have strange things going on with your electronics, lights flickering,
and a lot of things going wrong with computers or
(05:16):
cashier machines when you go to step up to them,
Like these things just happened. But I started noticing communication
almost like I don't even know how to express it,
but to get things to work better, because I felt
like I was obviously insulting these machines that they were
(05:40):
not working for me. So I felt like I needed
to approach it differently, and wow, it changed a lot
for me. It didn't just remain as this conflicting nature.
Oh hide zapping things again. And I had a major
problem with static electricity, and I would zap everything and
zapped my fingertips so often during the day I started
(06:03):
opening doors with my elbows. It was really a big problem.
But I'm happy to say I found a way. I mean,
we're always growing and learning, and I found a way
to be able to get through this world with less
shocking and computers crashing on me. And then I started
seeing that these computer things in different machinery would cooperate
(06:29):
and do things I didn't even think to ask. And
I give this example of playing Mario Brothers. I was
in college, and the first Mario didn't have a continuation
button or program or method of extending your time. If
you died at the end, you died at the end,
and you'd have to start every single level over from
(06:52):
the beginning. And I did that over and over. But
I was switching between that one and Mario Brothers three,
which had a continuation right, so I'd say, would you
like to continue? Click yes, and it allowed you to
do that at least three times over. So I'm going
between these having a good old time. When one of
my friends walks into the room is watching me play,
(07:13):
and uh, I am not kidding. This was just so
wild to me. I died and my friend starts laughing,
as like, you gotta start all over from the beginning.
I said, no, I don't. It's going to ask me
to continue, and it asked me, would you like to continue?
I click yes, bling and I continue to replay that
(07:36):
last level over again, and my friend's jaw almost hit
the floor and was like, that doesn't happen. I said,
what do you mean? You're playing Mario one Mario three?
Does that the one that she's sitting there holding in
her hands, And I'm like, I've been replaying this level
for hours. I had no idea. Because I was switching
(07:57):
between them, I expected it to happen. And because I
expected it to happen, I found that to be a
special element in this whole process, this whole communication of
having no doubt. It wasn't me asking, but it was
ME anticipating and expecting, always, uh for something to happen,
(08:20):
and it would. And uh, I've I've heard now when
I spoke of this on a program with Maureen Sieberg
where they said, oh, there's a code that you click
up left right, I don't know, something to allow yourself
to continue at the end of that game, I'm like,
well this after all these years, um gee, I'm glad
(08:43):
I know that now, But back then I sure didn't
um to me. It was like, there's a screen that
never existed in this program, and it just did this
for me out of it the kindness of its heart,
I mean, out of expectation. What was this? It was
just so as are but it continues, it continues. I
(09:03):
had two separate screens on a computer okay, a computer
system at work. I'll just say it was working in
a in a federal type building at the time. And
this is just a year ago, and I'm like, I'm
putting on my background screens that i'd like for the
two different screens. Right, you share the same screen when
(09:26):
you have two different monitors. It's one giant screen. You
should not be able to have two separate looks or
anything like that. And I'm like, gosh, I really would
like to have two separate images for each screen. I
didn't question it, and I go to choose my two
(09:47):
images I wanted for each screen and lower behold, it happened.
I have two monitors hooked up to the same computer
working as one giant screen with two different changing images.
Mind you, it wasn't just the same image but changing ones.
I'm like, yeah, this is awesome, it's working, having a
(10:08):
good old time with it. Well, somebody from the computer
department comes in months later and they're like, can I
speak with you? And like, yeah, sure, what It's like,
how did you do this? I'm like, dude, what it's
like to have these two different images? You are sharing
one screen, your mouse goes between both screens. You cannot
(10:30):
have two separate images. And these are people who are
working for the government, high tech people. I t people,
and I said because I wanted it to and they're
just like minds blown and they were looking at it
trying to figure out how I did it, and I, honestly,
I just you know, another nod to this, uh this
(10:54):
expectation that seems to happen that I don't quite understand,
and I think some of it may be partly uh well,
this part is not Poulter guyst But I have other
instances that are like with inanimate objects, like an expectation
for something to happen and it does, and I'm like, hold,
I that was just too purposeful. That had to be
(11:15):
a Poulter guys. But um, some of it it's just,
you know, how do you explain there's there's a communication,
there's this this thing, this element, and Maureen Sieberg consider
me to be what's called a machine EmPATH. I never again,
I've never heard of synaesthesia. And then to be told that,
and one thing I would always admit, like, I don't
(11:38):
say I'm psychic, I don't say I'm a medium, but
I've always said I feel other people's pain, I feel
other things around me, and so I'm empathic, you know,
have empathy. So to move it to the level of
machines inanimate objects, okay, I guess, uh, I guess that's
where we're at. So that's what we're going to be
(12:00):
speaking on synaesthesia with Patricia Duffy. And there's like over
a hundred of these different types of synesthesia that people
live and it's an extension of themselves and I totally
get that. It's that that's sensory that just lets you
(12:20):
know you're connected to everything around you. It's part of you,
it's part of who you are. And uh, yeah, if
you ever want to check out the article that was
written on me by Maureen Sieberg. Uh, go to my
main website Heidi Hollis dot com or shadow Folks dot
com and it's right there. All right, you are listening
(12:42):
to Dark Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis on the
I Heart Radio and Coast to Coast, a paranormal podcast network.
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a l dot com. Welcome back. You are listening to
(15:26):
Dark Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis on the I
Heart Radio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.
Today's guest is Patricia lind Duffy. She is the author
of Blue Cats and Chartrusse Kittens, How Sinistates Color their worlds.
She is the first author to write about her synaesthesia,
(15:50):
and an audio version of this classic synesthesia story has
just come out with research, updates and music by sinist
musicians from Audible. Patricia feels that synesthesia opens a door
to what she calls personal coding, which is a greater
awareness of the diverse, unique ways each of us thinks,
(16:12):
feels and codes and knowledge. I am so excited to
be introducing Patricia Duffy. How are you doing today, Patricia,
I'm good, I'm good, And how are you today? Oh my,
it's been a wonderful and uh fabulous day. And the
world of synaesthesia. I wish I knew that this existed.
(16:35):
And you were the first to like step out and
say this is who I am and this is how
I experienced the world in a book. How was that
experience for you when you you did that. Well, Um,
I don't know if I can say I was the
very first to say that I'm a sinnesy, but I
it looks like I was the very first to write
a book about the experience of synesthesia. And yeah, it
(17:00):
was actually a wonderful, um kind of liberating experience because
back when I was doing my research for the book,
so little was really known about synesthesia there what we
weren't many reports out in the media yet, and you know,
it was really unknown territory. And if I said to people,
(17:24):
you know, words have colors. From me, every word has
a different color. Which is the case. Um, I hear words,
but I don't only hear them. I also see their colors. Um.
And this is probably a very common form of synesthesia.
It's only one of many varieties of synesthesia. There are people,
for example, who hear music, but they don't only hear
(17:47):
the music, they also see the music. The music has
colors and shapes and sometimes even textures for them, sometimes
even movement. There are all sorts of ways that the
senses can cross over and blend and combine, which is
really the kind of definition of synesthesia. For some people,
(18:08):
words have tastes. Every word has a different taste. They
hear a word and it makes them taste something. So,
you know, yeah, I think the study of synesthesia has
shown us how different parts of the brain that we
thought didn't really have very much communication can have communication,
and that this is really activated in some people and
(18:29):
maybe all people have this capacity. But yeah, I mean
your question is very interesting because, as I said, back
when I was first researching, it's so little was known
about it that people would kind of look at me like,
are you inventing this? Um? Do you just have a
very very active imagination? Um? Are you a little bit
(18:50):
you know, a little bit loopy? Um? So if um,
the fact that you know, the scientific community was embracing
the study of synesthesia. In fact, it was a researcher,
a very pioneering researcher UM at Cambridge University, Dr Simon
Baron Cohen, who was one of the first to lead
(19:12):
a research team trying to understand why it was that
some people experienced words as having color. And he actually
set up a series of brain scanning experiments where he
read a list of words to people who reported this experience,
and he looked on the brain scan and he found
(19:34):
that there was activation when they heard words. There was
activation not only in the part of the brain that
controls language production you would expect that to be activated
upon hearing words, but also in the part of the
brain that controls color perception. So to their surprise, you know, um,
(19:54):
it was as if people with synesthesia were experiencing words
as colorful objects. And this was probably one of the
first forms of synaesthesia to be studied. But there's so
many different varieties of synesthesia and different ways that the
senses can cross over and combine. And you know, interestingly enough,
(20:15):
once you know the scientific community was providing validation for
these experiences, we began to have conferences, academic conferences on synaesthesia,
and then more and more people started to kind of emerge,
you know, and say, yeah, I've I've always experienced you know,
words is having color, or music is having shapes, or
(20:38):
or maybe even words as having tastes. But I you know,
I didn't know why. I didn't know whether I was,
you know, just crazy. I didn't know. I didn't want
to talk about it because it sounded weird to people. Um,
but it was a wonderful thing, uh, just to find
more and more people at conferences on the internet. The
(20:58):
Internet really provided a wonderful world for people with synesthesia
and those who study them to connect and to form
a community. And I think that the study of synesthesia
is really important because, you know, just as in recent decades,
I think all of us have come to better appreciate
our human ethnic diversity, cultural diversity, and to appreciate that.
(21:24):
So the study of synesthesia is really just an extension
of that. We get now we get to appreciate our
neural diversity and the fact that that no two of
us is processing information in quite the same way. That's awesome.
So many times, like what you're saying, you know, I
think children were put off to believe. Oh, you've got
(21:44):
an active imagination, that's all that is. And and now
to be able to pull it into the scientific realm
and say no, actually, mom, let me point out to
you here pat Patricia Duffy's book, Um, this is a thing.
This is really happening. And h I love that we
(22:05):
have that to go to. And you know, you're saying,
how so many people are coming forward. I'm new to this.
I'm so blown away with this reality that it were
a lot greater and more complex than we ever knew.
And to think that that there's still people that are
(22:27):
isolated and thinking that, like you said, my, it must
be crazy. What's happening here? How can we encourage parents
who might have children who speak of seeing colors with
music or whatnot. Well, you know, I'm really very happy
to report and and in my in the audiobook version
(22:48):
of my book Blue Cats that just recently came out, Um,
I've included an afterward that has information about some of
the latest research and trends and synesthesia uh that have
happened since the original print book was published. And now
thanks to Dr Julia Simner, who is at the University
(23:09):
of Sussex in England, there is now something called a
Synesthesia tool Kit for Parents, UM, and it is available
to teachers in schools UM to share with parents whose
children might have synesthesia. And it has information about synesthesia
(23:30):
and how it might work in the case of different
children in their language development, UM, in their uh, you know,
development in different different ways, and and what is the
best way for teachers and for parents to react to
it and to encourage it. And UM, I think this
(23:51):
is a really wonderful development. And UM. Also, you know,
it's for too long. You know. When I when I
was writing my book and I was interviewing other people
with synesthesia, you know, I had really so many kind
of sad stories about people telling me childhood experiences where
they mentioned that everybody's name had a color and their
(24:14):
parents said, look, you must be very stupid or very
silly to say things like that. That doesn't make any sense.
And then of course the child feels like, oh no,
there's I've done something wrong, there's something wrong with me. Um.
There was another person I interviewed who told me that
when she was a child, she she told her parents,
her teachers that you know, she said, yes, well, I'm
(24:37):
writing down the colors of everything you say, and the
teacher said, what are you talking about? The colors of
what I say? That doesn't make anything? You know, what
are you saying doesn't make any sense? And she began
to feel that she had to hide this, and uh,
you know, she said that she began to think of
it as a secret magic, that it was something you know,
(24:59):
that she preached she which was a very good thing
because you know, many children begin to internalize the negative
reactions they've had. In the case of this person, she
continued to appreciate it, but she just knew that she
couldn't you know, other people would not, so she didn't
share it with most other people. UM. But it really
(25:19):
is important that the parents know that there they don't
need to worry if their children talk about sis synistate experiences.
It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the child. Um.
There are many actually positive effects of synaesthetic experience. Synistheates
(25:40):
are are generally known to have particularly good memories. UM.
There was a study done at University of California at
San Diego that showed people with synesthesia various forms are
eight times more likely to be in the creative fessions
(26:01):
than people without synesthesia. Which means they're very very drawn
to innovation, creativity, the arts. Um. And you know, we
know that sometimes synesthesia is not in every case, of course,
but sometimes it's connected to some very very you know,
special abilities, um, even kind of savant like abilities. So
(26:25):
synesthesia is not something that parents should discourage in children.
Maybe try to listen, understand and encourage the child more
to talk about it and even to explicit Now, you know,
most parents are just most concerned does this prevent my
child from learning certain things? That's while that that they
(26:47):
have going through their heads, like is this a learning
disability or an extra ability? And you're leaning towards this
is more of an ability in the creative realm. But
there's also those who are very key into numbers and
musical notes and a spelling with synesthesia correct. Yes, actually
(27:08):
it seems to be um, you know, kind of an
enhancement of the ability to spell, because the words are
the child is kind of visualizing words quite automatically spelled
out in their different colors. Fascinating. Well, we've got to
get to our nets break. You are listening to Dark
(27:29):
Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis on the I Heart
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(30:08):
Welcome back. You are listening to Dark Becomes Light with
me Heidi Hollis on the I Heart Radio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network, And I have Pat
Duffy who is really giving us a low down on
what it is to be human. Some people would say superhuman,
but I'm feeling like this is a human ability that
(30:31):
so many of us do have. But it's not a
huge percentage necessarily. So how do we know that though?
I mean I think I heard the number was at
four percent of the population. Yeah, four percent of the
population experienced some form of synaesthesia. Um. And there are
I think according to the most recent data, there is
(30:54):
something like at least sixty five different different forms of synesthesia,
different ways that the senses can blend and and combine
and uh and and create particular perceptions. Um. So there
are many, many different forms of synesthesia. And it seems
the more we study it, the more we realize that
(31:16):
it's a it's a it's a lot more common. When I,
for example, when I first started doing my research into synesthesia,
which was probably in the early nineteen nineties. I think
the statistics I read were, oh, this is something extremely rare.
Maybe one in ten million people experience this. And okay,
after the Cambridge University study it was one in two thousand.
(31:38):
That was back in the n or something like that.
Now with you know, with subsequent studies, we realize it's
even a lot more common than that. It's something like,
you know, as you said, four percent of the population um.
When it comes to the kind of synesthesia that I experience,
the colored word colored numbers synesthesia is between one and
(32:01):
two percent of the population um. It's probably one of
the most common forms of synesthesia. Uh, and it's also
been probably the most studied form um. But I think
there's a lot a lot more, a lot more studies
to be done in this area. I also think that
synesthesia opens a door to considering so many different types
(32:26):
of perceptions, um that all of us have, because it's
not only people with synesthesia, it's every person on the
planet that has a very unique neural pattern, a very
unique way of processing information and and for coding knowledge.
And then in the opening you mentioned personal coding, and
(32:48):
that's what I mean that now and it's not an
emotional thing or can it evoke and intertwined emotions like
when somebody hears music they might get goose bumps. Uh that,
I mean, it doesn't quite make sense. Why would somebody
get goose bumps? I mean, is that kind of a
laid into synesthesia type experiences or what are we what
(33:11):
are we speaking of as all neurological or is that
spiritual emotional content deep in there? I think it's I
think it's uh, you know, it's all part of a continuum,
let's say, of or you know, of a spectrum of
possible ways human ways, right that we can react for
(33:32):
some people report a very you know, a very great
emotional component to their synaesthetic experience. Um. Certainly with music.
Music evokes emotions anyway, and the color is just becomes
another aspect of that, you know, that that emotional you know,
simulation that the person feels. Um in the even in
(33:56):
the case of words synesthesia, there I've been tribuwed synies
states that personify the letters of the alphabet. They say,
I don't experience this myself, but um, you know a
number of people will say, oh yeah, each letter of
the alphabet has a particular personality. And there are some
letters that I like because you know, they're very they're
(34:18):
very kind of easy going and friendly, like like the
letter OH or the letter P. And there are some
letters like K that I don't like because you know
that you know, they're kind of a sharp angular, you know,
nervous sort of sort of person if it's not that
warm and and fuzzy. UM. So, you know, people there
(34:38):
is an emotional component to synesthesia. I think the emotional
component might vary with with the individual. UM. There are
some people who are kind of more you, yeah, the
words have colors, but they don't feel a great emotional
attachment to any of the colors. It's just kind of
observing what they are. UM. So think people can experience
(35:01):
it many in many different ways. Interestingly, UM, there is
a professor Roger Walsh at the University of California, Irvine,
and UH he found that people who don't normally experience
synesthesia will experience it when they are in very deep
(35:21):
states of meditation. He followed a group of very serious
meditators over a number of years, and he found that
this was an experience that quite a lot of them
began to have, even though they did not have it
before they started meditating or when they were not meditating.
So you know, this also kind of indicates some sort
(35:44):
of capacity in in in all of us, um for
for a synesthetic experience. We know that people report experiences
like that sometimes when they take hallucinogenic drugs, right, we
know that, UM people have report we did, oh yeah,
the music had all these ship moving shapes, and maybe
they did not experience that without the drug experience. But
(36:08):
obviously the drug activated something some capacity which maybe in
some people. Who knows why some people that capacity is
just automatically activated. That's fascinating because it lets us know,
like you said, it's just something that is attainable somehow
(36:28):
in some form. And and as we've discussed on another occasion, uh,
sometimes people have brain injuries and it triggers a certain
part of the brain to interpret the world as it
was meant to be maybe or however it is more
unique now to the person. So the brain is so magnificent.
(36:50):
And and you know, with the type of audience that
I have, and we're all into uh, matters of the
extreme and the mysterious, I'm areas of people who have
these different varieties of synaesthesia are interpreting also the world
of the paranormal or spiritual experiences more easily or more
(37:14):
profound than the next person. I mean, how how would
you think somebody could uh, Like, for instance, some people
see a ufo in the sky, there could be fifty
people there. Some people don't see anything, others see a handful,
will see extraordinary colors, while others will just see metal disk.
(37:35):
You know, Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah? This,
this is this is one of the great mysteries of perception.
And you know, and perhaps the study of things like
synaesthesia will will kind of enlighten us about that. But
but but you're absolutely right, I would say in interviewing,
(37:55):
you know a great number of synaesthes from my book,
there's there's really a kind of spectrum. I mean, there's
a there's a whole array of ways that people interpret
their synesthesia. However, um I would say that you know,
synesthesia synesthetic experiences have often been reported as part of
(38:18):
mystical experiences. Um I. There's for example, there is a
part of the Bible uh in Exodus where the people
are gathered with Moses at Mount Sinai, and it describes
how together. They all they all saw the voice of
(38:40):
God and heard visions. So it seems, you know that
that certainly sounds like a very synaesthetic description. Um. We
also know that, you know, Rambo and Baudelaire, right, these
great poets of the nineteenth century. Um, they were fascinated
(39:02):
with synesthesia. In fact, it was quite fashionable in that
in that circle of poets to be a true Synisthe
because some of the poets had these kinds of you know,
very kind of mystical experiences as a result of experimenting
with with drugs, right that were that were popular at
(39:23):
the time, with hashish and so on. They had experiences
like that. But Rambo actually, you know, he he loved
reading medical encyclopedias to try to find some reference to
what he had experienced, you know, during these altered states.
And in reading the medical encyclopedia he was amazed to
(39:46):
find that there was actually a documented condition. Back then
it was it was referred to more as chromosthesia, which
is you know, you know, uh sort of color sensation. Um.
And without taking any drugs at all. He said, wow,
you mean there are people who just they just experienced
what I experienced without doing anything special without ingesting anything.
(40:11):
And he thought these people must be connected automatically, in
touch with some more sublime level of reality. And there
was there was that belief among the circle of nineteenth
century poets, and in fact, it led Rambou to writing
a very famous, what became a very famous poem called
(40:34):
Sonnet of the Vowels, where he talks about how each
vowel has a different color and then um, you know,
that description kind of spins off into this description of
all sorts of surreal landscapes and and so on in
the poem. And interestingly, scientists at the time, the scientific
(40:55):
community was so fascinated by the poem that it actually
really you know, they began to to to study synesthesia.
War Before that, it had been a documented condition, but
people didn't, you know, most scientists didn't pay much attention
to it. Um. But after that, I think something like
four times the number of papers on synaesthesia were presented
(41:18):
as at a major academic conference in Paris, I think
it was the Conference on Physiological Psychology in eighteen eighty nine.
And and and after that, you know, the study of
synesthesia was was taken more seriously. It stopped at a
certain point um. People say when behavior of psychology came
(41:38):
in vogue later in the twentieth century, UM, and you know,
there was no way to kind of take in an
empirical way whether people were really having What did people
mean when they said they were having these these these
unusual experiences. We don't have any way to test for that.
How do we know it's really happening. Maybe it's just
their imagination. You know, things are often dismissed as you
(42:01):
as you've mentioned earlier, UM, things are often to dismissed as, oh,
it's just your imagination, UM, or maybe you're just an
artistic type of And indeed, even when it comes to
the topic of UFOs, but we're finding out o G.
The government had them all along. Well, we've got to
get to hardness break. You are listening to Dark Becomes
(42:21):
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(44:44):
are listening to Dark Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis
on the I Heart Radio and Coast to Coast AM
Paranormal podcast network and I have Hat Duffy and Wow,
we're really getting into the conversations of what it is
to be a real human and seems like the possibilities
of evolutionary processes that are going on among a lot
(45:06):
of us four percent officially, but and we're finding that
it's something that can be triggered as well. And you know,
it's something when it comes to those who experience synesthesia,
and you're speaking of, you know, words that have colors
or sound to these individuals, is it always consistent what
(45:27):
they see and experience or is it something that's changing
for them as well? Well? Generally it's considered one of
the hall marks of of of synesthetic experience that um,
generally speaking, the colors if you have particular colors for
words or alphabet letters or musical notes that this is
this is very consistent. And in fact, that is one
(45:50):
of the tests. UM. You know, when UM universities do
their studies of synesthesia and they look for subjects, for volunteers,
so objects to be in these studies, well, they want
to know, you know, just this person really experienced synthesia,
or maybe they just think they do. They're not really
sure what it is, and they do give a test,
(46:11):
and one of those tests is that they have the
person identify all, for example, the colors they experience for
their alphabet, all twenty six letters and colors, and then
six months later they'll call they'll just, you know, without warning,
call them back into the lab and say, okay, could
you tell tell us what those colors are again? And
(46:33):
it has to be something like nine consistent. They know that, UM,
that it always is for genuine synesthates, and it's it's
not for for other people. Even if they try to
memorize most people, UM can't you know, can't retain all
of that existency without warning is important. Now this is
(46:55):
a this, this this little synaesthetic aspect of some people experience.
I think would be very distracting when people describe tasting
words or or names of things. It's like, I think
I understand better that phrase you put a bad taste
in my mouth. Well, interestingly, you know, I think some
(47:19):
of our metaphors might originate from people's synaesthetic experiences. Um.
But yeah, you're absolutely right. Um. Now, this is also
an interesting thing about you know. There there are different
kinds of synesthesia. There's what we call developmental synesthesia, which
means ever since the person can remember that, you know,
(47:41):
words have had color, or music has had colors or shapes,
they don't know what it is to experience that in
any other way. It's just always been that way as
far back as they can, you know, they can recall. Um.
There are other people who might suddenly developed the synesthetic
experience as a result of a brain injury. They might
(48:05):
have a head trauma, for example, and as a result
of that, uh, you know, sounds they hear in words
they here tend to take on colors which they did
not have before. There are differences in the two experiences,
um uh. For example, the people who have synesthesia as
(48:26):
a result of head injury, usually the colors are not
very consistent. They could. You know, you could hear the
same sound and it might be read one day in
green the next day. UM, and it is distracting for
those people. It's very distracting for those people because they
have you know, they have not experienced it before, this
suddenly coming into their consciousness. UM. It's not a way
(48:49):
that they've you know, they've kind of processed information before. However,
developmental synthesis who say, well, it's always been like that
for me, are not distract by the experience. It's just
part and parcel of what they've always how they've always
perceived the world, and it would seem very strange to
them if suddenly they didn't have it anymore. Um. If
(49:12):
you ask, you know, most synathees, and I'm sure there
are some exceptions, there might be, you know, there are
might be some people who say, oh, sometimes it's just
overwhelming and I would rather not have it, But the
vast majority will say, oh, no, I would never want
to lose it. If you said, well, if I could
snap my fingers and your synaesthesia would go away, would
(49:33):
you would you like that? They say no, no, why
would I want colors to disappear? Why would I want
this other dimension of things to disappear. It's a part
of you. And I find it interesting too. I've read
somewhere that those who are remote viewers or are considered
to be psychic or a medium, that the best ones
(49:55):
and those fields have synaesthesia. Well, you know, it wouldn't
it wouldn't. It wouldn't surprise me that that that would
be an aspect of their experience. It's just you know,
synesthesia is about kind of having more avenues, right, more dimensions, uh,
to process information, to process the world things that are
(50:20):
coming in. And so it wouldn't surprise me at all
of synesthesia was part of that for something. With the
folks that are experiencing the paranormal, the UFOs and even
something they consider to be interdimensional, I can see how
it is more profound for those certain people and how
they may be better at, say doing remote viewing, uh,
(50:44):
if they do have those extra avenues. That's it's it's
kind of intriguing. I'm I'm I'm really curious about some
of the scientific research and what they find when those
areas of the brain get triggered. But what stage would
you say this research is at. It sounds like it's
(51:05):
just forever growing, Like there's just so much that still
hasn't been covered. Yeah, I think right now, a lot
of Uh, you're absolutely right. I mean this is such
a vast field. Um, and I think we're we're still
in the very very beginning stages of it. Um. I
(51:26):
think it's some very important research going on now. Is
how synesthesia develops in in children. Um. A long time ago,
we had research on babies, you know where we know
that babies, let's say less than six months old, what
we could say that they all in a way of
synesthesia because um, you know, the you know the world
(51:50):
that the baby perceives as kind of coming in as
one undifferentiated whole because the brain has not developed enough
yet to kind of compartmentalize all of its functions. You
know that I'm hearing this, but I'm smelling this, but
I'm seeing this, I'm touching this. Um, you know, everything
(52:11):
is kind of is kind of one. So actually, one
theory of synesthesia is that that you know, as the
brain matures and begins to compartmentalize its functions, in some
people this doesn't come you know, this process that does
not completely take place, some overlap still remain and that
(52:34):
is why you know, those people will continue to have
this kind of blended perception in some area with maybe
words having tastes and and so on. However, very recently
we have more research on synesthesia in school aged children
because you know, as you said before, our parents are
very concerned. They want to know, ye know, they want
(52:56):
to know everything that um, their child maybe experienced saying
and if it's something that they should be concerned about
or or you know, not concerned about or um. So
I think this is a this is a real area
of focus right now. Another area focuses whether or not
synesthesia can be learned um by adults. Um can you
(53:18):
can you teach it? Um? And actually there there is
uh there is a researcher who says that he was
successful at teaching a group of adults to experience colored
words and asthesia too. Um after a nine week training
period where they they read, they read every day on
(53:40):
tablets where the words were written in in various colors
in a very consistent way. UM. So that after that
nine week period a lot of them would report actually
even when they read black text, you know, the usual
black text against a white background, in some way, they
would they would continue to experience the colors, which is
(54:02):
what syniestates will report to UM. The difference is that
that with that experimental group, it kind of all faded
for them, maybe you know, two or three months after
the study, where with syniestates it never fades. It's just
it just stays, just stays with fascinating. I think that
having more conversations about this, it's really going to expand
(54:23):
and open up a lot of people's minds to helping
to explain for themselves and others around them what it
is that they've been experiencing. I I know for myself
coming across us and and and getting some things explained
to me. I know that I have synesthesia. I know
I'm a synistate. And it seems like the list is
(54:43):
just growing and growing, all the different avenues that people
experience synesthesia. So I'm I commend you for your work
and for being so brave to step forward and and
being the first to report because uh, in your in
your book, because there's something special about the person that
does that. There's so many that could say they're a
researcher of this or that, but to be a researcher
(55:05):
and an experiencer even in the field of the mysterious
is really important. What are some of the resources that
you can give for people to learn more about this
The Synesthesia tree dot com um. I also hope that
that everyone is familiar with this wonderful column on synesthesia
in Psychology Today, a kind of regular blog that's written
(55:28):
by Maureen Sieberg, who's who's interviewed a great variety of
celebrated synithy. And by the way, this might be a
good a good chance to say that synisthates are in
good companies. Some people that are out there in the
public eye have talked a lot about their sinisation. For example,
Billie Eilish has talked about her experiences of the colors
(55:49):
of of music, as as Pharrell Williams Rights famous for
his song Happy. There are more and more synisthy characters
in fiction. It is is growing and growing. And Maureen
is a great friend and she interviewed me but in
Psychology today, so I feel fortunate to meet you and
her and wow, opening up a lot of eyes. Thank
(56:11):
you so much, Patricia Duffy for coming on the show today.
This is great. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm
so so enjoyed talking to you, thank you, thank you,
Blue Cats and Sharp Truth Kittens. Everybody be sure to
check out her new audible book and also remember to
go to shadow Folks dot com or Heidi Hollis dot
com and send over whatever it is that you're experiencing
(56:33):
out of the ordinary. And with that we've come to
the bottom of another fabulous episode. I hope to catch
you next week. This has been Dark Becomes Light with
me Heidi Hollis on the I Heart Radio and Coast
to Coast a paranamble podcast network. We'll see you next time.
Be safe, goodbye, everybody. M h M. Well, if you
(57:05):
liked this edition of Dark Becomes Light, wait till you
hear the next one. You've been listening to the I
Heart Radio and Coast Coast a m paranormal podcast network.
H
Welcome to the I Heart Radio and Coast to Coast
a Paranormal podcast Network. Now get ready for another episode
of Dark Becomes Light with Heidi Halls. The thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host our thoughts and opinions only,
and do not necessarily reflect those of I Heart Media,
I Heart Radio, Coast to Coast a Out, employees of
(00:23):
premier networks, or their sponsors and associates. You are encouraged
to do the proper amount of research yourself, depending on
the subject matter and your needs. You are listening to
(00:51):
Dark Becomes Light with Me, Heidi Hollis on the I
Heart Radio and Coast to Coast a M Paranormal Podcast Network.
Welcome to my show. Remember each week, this is the
place you come if you want to have your experiences
(01:12):
about anything out of the ordinary be expressed, explained, give insight,
or receive it. I want you to feel welcome, So
just go to my main website Shadow Folks dot com
or Heidi Hollis dot com and tell me what's going
on out there and I will share it here on
(01:33):
the air. Or if you want to be a guest
on this program, you're also welcome to do that. As well.
Today is going to be a special show. As they
all are, right, we have a good time on this
program just talking about these things as we would with
any other topic. Humanly flawed sent to humor on top
(01:54):
of it, I hope. Anyways, we're all making ways in
this world. Today, we're going to explore the topic of synesthesia. Now,
what synesthesia is I'm going to have my guests, Patricia
Lynn Duffy explain after this first break. But it's something
that's been scientifically proven that at least four percent of
(02:16):
us have, and it is an extra level of sensory
input that we receive in this world. How we perceive it,
how we experience it, and we're all individuals. We all
have unique DNA for a reason, so we also interpret
the world differently. But there's a way to track synesthesia scientifically,
(02:40):
and that is what makes this even more precious to
all of us to know that we have these abilities,
We do have something that it's worth exploring, worth taking
those extra steps. And I'm going to share a little
bit about myself and my steps into synesthesia. I have
(03:00):
had Maureen Sieberg on this program sharing about her experiences,
her books, and she also interviewed me for one of
her articles in Psychology Today and her blog called Sensorium.
And now to share a little bit more about what
synesthesia is like for myself, because there's there's a ton
(03:23):
of different categories and I had never heard of it.
I had never had it explained to myself prior to
being connected to Maureen Sieberg, and I have always had
this understanding, this connection to what people would call inanimate objects.
I never saw a barrier, and as a kid they
(03:44):
might say, oh, you're just somebody with an act of imagination.
For myself, it was just known and I didn't feel
like I had to explain or even express it. It
was just there. And that seemed to transfer over from
you know, your teddy bear having a name and and
you have conversations as a kid, to oh, I'm going
(04:07):
to hit this volleyball, and to communicate and have this
understanding I'm going to hit you now, would you mind
hitting your mark? That was the communication that I always
seem to have And it wasn't like I had conversations.
It was just an understanding and uh, almost an acknowledgement too.
(04:29):
And it's hard to explain. But then you get something
like a computer, and a computer has a lot of
different components to it, and it just adds to the personality,
much like, hey, you might give your car a name,
you know, and it's like, doesn't have a personality, doesn't
have a certain trick to it to get it to
move the right direction, that kind of thing. But again,
it was nothing that I expressed as nothing I explained.
(04:53):
But then I noticed that sometimes, as a lot of
people who are in the paranormal world, we might exp
various street light inhibition, like the street lights will go
out when you're around it, and people call those people sliders. Well,
that happened to me all the time. And then you
have strange things going on with your electronics, lights flickering,
and a lot of things going wrong with computers or
(05:16):
cashier machines when you go to step up to them,
Like these things just happened. But I started noticing communication
almost like I don't even know how to express it,
but to get things to work better, because I felt
like I was obviously insulting these machines that they were
(05:40):
not working for me. So I felt like I needed
to approach it differently, and wow, it changed a lot
for me. It didn't just remain as this conflicting nature.
Oh hide zapping things again. And I had a major
problem with static electricity, and I would zap everything and
zapped my fingertips so often during the day I started
(06:03):
opening doors with my elbows. It was really a big problem.
But I'm happy to say I found a way. I mean,
we're always growing and learning, and I found a way
to be able to get through this world with less
shocking and computers crashing on me. And then I started
seeing that these computer things in different machinery would cooperate
(06:29):
and do things I didn't even think to ask. And
I give this example of playing Mario Brothers. I was
in college, and the first Mario didn't have a continuation
button or program or method of extending your time. If
you died at the end, you died at the end,
and you'd have to start every single level over from
(06:52):
the beginning. And I did that over and over. But
I was switching between that one and Mario Brothers three,
which had a continuation right, so I'd say, would you
like to continue? Click yes, and it allowed you to
do that at least three times over. So I'm going
between these having a good old time. When one of
my friends walks into the room is watching me play,
(07:13):
and uh, I am not kidding. This was just so
wild to me. I died and my friend starts laughing,
as like, you gotta start all over from the beginning.
I said, no, I don't. It's going to ask me
to continue, and it asked me, would you like to continue?
I click yes, bling and I continue to replay that
(07:36):
last level over again, and my friend's jaw almost hit
the floor and was like, that doesn't happen. I said,
what do you mean? You're playing Mario one Mario three?
Does that the one that she's sitting there holding in
her hands, And I'm like, I've been replaying this level
for hours. I had no idea. Because I was switching
(07:57):
between them, I expected it to happen. And because I
expected it to happen, I found that to be a
special element in this whole process, this whole communication of
having no doubt. It wasn't me asking, but it was
ME anticipating and expecting, always, uh for something to happen,
(08:20):
and it would. And uh, I've I've heard now when
I spoke of this on a program with Maureen Sieberg
where they said, oh, there's a code that you click
up left right, I don't know, something to allow yourself
to continue at the end of that game, I'm like,
well this after all these years, um gee, I'm glad
(08:43):
I know that now, But back then I sure didn't
um to me. It was like, there's a screen that
never existed in this program, and it just did this
for me out of it the kindness of its heart,
I mean, out of expectation. What was this? It was
just so as are but it continues, it continues. I
(09:03):
had two separate screens on a computer okay, a computer
system at work. I'll just say it was working in
a in a federal type building at the time. And
this is just a year ago, and I'm like, I'm
putting on my background screens that i'd like for the
two different screens. Right, you share the same screen when
(09:26):
you have two different monitors. It's one giant screen. You
should not be able to have two separate looks or
anything like that. And I'm like, gosh, I really would
like to have two separate images for each screen. I
didn't question it, and I go to choose my two
(09:47):
images I wanted for each screen and lower behold, it happened.
I have two monitors hooked up to the same computer
working as one giant screen with two different changing images.
Mind you, it wasn't just the same image but changing ones.
I'm like, yeah, this is awesome, it's working, having a
(10:08):
good old time with it. Well, somebody from the computer
department comes in months later and they're like, can I
speak with you? And like, yeah, sure, what It's like,
how did you do this? I'm like, dude, what it's
like to have these two different images? You are sharing
one screen, your mouse goes between both screens. You cannot
(10:30):
have two separate images. And these are people who are
working for the government, high tech people. I t people,
and I said because I wanted it to and they're
just like minds blown and they were looking at it
trying to figure out how I did it, and I, honestly,
I just you know, another nod to this, uh this
(10:54):
expectation that seems to happen that I don't quite understand,
and I think some of it may be partly uh well,
this part is not Poulter guyst But I have other
instances that are like with inanimate objects, like an expectation
for something to happen and it does, and I'm like, hold,
I that was just too purposeful. That had to be
(11:15):
a Poulter guys. But um, some of it it's just,
you know, how do you explain there's there's a communication,
there's this this thing, this element, and Maureen Sieberg consider
me to be what's called a machine EmPATH. I never again,
I've never heard of synaesthesia. And then to be told that,
and one thing I would always admit, like, I don't
(11:38):
say I'm psychic, I don't say I'm a medium, but
I've always said I feel other people's pain, I feel
other things around me, and so I'm empathic, you know,
have empathy. So to move it to the level of
machines inanimate objects, okay, I guess, uh, I guess that's
where we're at. So that's what we're going to be
(12:00):
speaking on synaesthesia with Patricia Duffy. And there's like over
a hundred of these different types of synesthesia that people
live and it's an extension of themselves and I totally
get that. It's that that's sensory that just lets you
(12:20):
know you're connected to everything around you. It's part of you,
it's part of who you are. And uh, yeah, if
you ever want to check out the article that was
written on me by Maureen Sieberg. Uh, go to my
main website Heidi Hollis dot com or shadow Folks dot
com and it's right there. All right, you are listening
(12:42):
to Dark Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis on the
I Heart Radio and Coast to Coast, a paranormal podcast network.
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a l dot com. Welcome back. You are listening to
(15:26):
Dark Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis on the I
Heart Radio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.
Today's guest is Patricia lind Duffy. She is the author
of Blue Cats and Chartrusse Kittens, How Sinistates Color their worlds.
She is the first author to write about her synaesthesia,
(15:50):
and an audio version of this classic synesthesia story has
just come out with research, updates and music by sinist
musicians from Audible. Patricia feels that synesthesia opens a door
to what she calls personal coding, which is a greater
awareness of the diverse, unique ways each of us thinks,
(16:12):
feels and codes and knowledge. I am so excited to
be introducing Patricia Duffy. How are you doing today, Patricia,
I'm good, I'm good, And how are you today? Oh my,
it's been a wonderful and uh fabulous day. And the
world of synaesthesia. I wish I knew that this existed.
(16:35):
And you were the first to like step out and
say this is who I am and this is how
I experienced the world in a book. How was that
experience for you when you you did that. Well, Um,
I don't know if I can say I was the
very first to say that I'm a sinnesy, but I
it looks like I was the very first to write
a book about the experience of synesthesia. And yeah, it
(17:00):
was actually a wonderful, um kind of liberating experience because
back when I was doing my research for the book,
so little was really known about synesthesia there what we
weren't many reports out in the media yet, and you know,
it was really unknown territory. And if I said to people,
(17:24):
you know, words have colors. From me, every word has
a different color. Which is the case. Um, I hear words,
but I don't only hear them. I also see their colors. Um.
And this is probably a very common form of synesthesia.
It's only one of many varieties of synesthesia. There are people,
for example, who hear music, but they don't only hear
(17:47):
the music, they also see the music. The music has
colors and shapes and sometimes even textures for them, sometimes
even movement. There are all sorts of ways that the
senses can cross over and blend and combine, which is
really the kind of definition of synesthesia. For some people,
(18:08):
words have tastes. Every word has a different taste. They
hear a word and it makes them taste something. So,
you know, yeah, I think the study of synesthesia has
shown us how different parts of the brain that we
thought didn't really have very much communication can have communication,
and that this is really activated in some people and
(18:29):
maybe all people have this capacity. But yeah, I mean
your question is very interesting because, as I said, back
when I was first researching, it's so little was known
about it that people would kind of look at me like,
are you inventing this? Um? Do you just have a
very very active imagination? Um? Are you a little bit
(18:50):
you know, a little bit loopy? Um? So if um,
the fact that you know, the scientific community was embracing
the study of synesthesia. In fact, it was a researcher,
a very pioneering researcher UM at Cambridge University, Dr Simon
Baron Cohen, who was one of the first to lead
(19:12):
a research team trying to understand why it was that
some people experienced words as having color. And he actually
set up a series of brain scanning experiments where he
read a list of words to people who reported this experience,
and he looked on the brain scan and he found
(19:34):
that there was activation when they heard words. There was
activation not only in the part of the brain that
controls language production you would expect that to be activated
upon hearing words, but also in the part of the
brain that controls color perception. So to their surprise, you know, um,
(19:54):
it was as if people with synesthesia were experiencing words
as colorful objects. And this was probably one of the
first forms of synaesthesia to be studied. But there's so
many different varieties of synesthesia and different ways that the
senses can cross over and combine. And you know, interestingly enough,
(20:15):
once you know the scientific community was providing validation for
these experiences, we began to have conferences, academic conferences on synaesthesia,
and then more and more people started to kind of emerge,
you know, and say, yeah, I've I've always experienced you know,
words is having color, or music is having shapes, or
(20:38):
or maybe even words as having tastes. But I you know,
I didn't know why. I didn't know whether I was,
you know, just crazy. I didn't know. I didn't want
to talk about it because it sounded weird to people. Um,
but it was a wonderful thing, uh, just to find
more and more people at conferences on the internet. The
(20:58):
Internet really provided a wonderful world for people with synesthesia
and those who study them to connect and to form
a community. And I think that the study of synesthesia
is really important because, you know, just as in recent decades,
I think all of us have come to better appreciate
our human ethnic diversity, cultural diversity, and to appreciate that.
(21:24):
So the study of synesthesia is really just an extension
of that. We get now we get to appreciate our
neural diversity and the fact that that no two of
us is processing information in quite the same way. That's awesome.
So many times, like what you're saying, you know, I
think children were put off to believe. Oh, you've got
(21:44):
an active imagination, that's all that is. And and now
to be able to pull it into the scientific realm
and say no, actually, mom, let me point out to
you here pat Patricia Duffy's book, Um, this is a thing.
This is really happening. And h I love that we
(22:05):
have that to go to. And you know, you're saying,
how so many people are coming forward. I'm new to this.
I'm so blown away with this reality that it were
a lot greater and more complex than we ever knew.
And to think that that there's still people that are
(22:27):
isolated and thinking that, like you said, my, it must
be crazy. What's happening here? How can we encourage parents
who might have children who speak of seeing colors with
music or whatnot. Well, you know, I'm really very happy
to report and and in my in the audiobook version
(22:48):
of my book Blue Cats that just recently came out, Um,
I've included an afterward that has information about some of
the latest research and trends and synesthesia uh that have
happened since the original print book was published. And now
thanks to Dr Julia Simner, who is at the University
(23:09):
of Sussex in England, there is now something called a
Synesthesia tool Kit for Parents, UM, and it is available
to teachers in schools UM to share with parents whose
children might have synesthesia. And it has information about synesthesia
(23:30):
and how it might work in the case of different
children in their language development, UM, in their uh, you know,
development in different different ways, and and what is the
best way for teachers and for parents to react to
it and to encourage it. And UM, I think this
(23:51):
is a really wonderful development. And UM. Also, you know,
it's for too long. You know. When I when I
was writing my book and I was interviewing other people
with synesthesia, you know, I had really so many kind
of sad stories about people telling me childhood experiences where
they mentioned that everybody's name had a color and their
(24:14):
parents said, look, you must be very stupid or very
silly to say things like that. That doesn't make any sense.
And then of course the child feels like, oh no,
there's I've done something wrong, there's something wrong with me. Um.
There was another person I interviewed who told me that
when she was a child, she she told her parents,
her teachers that you know, she said, yes, well, I'm
(24:37):
writing down the colors of everything you say, and the
teacher said, what are you talking about? The colors of
what I say? That doesn't make anything? You know, what
are you saying doesn't make any sense? And she began
to feel that she had to hide this, and uh,
you know, she said that she began to think of
it as a secret magic, that it was something you know,
(24:59):
that she preached she which was a very good thing
because you know, many children begin to internalize the negative
reactions they've had. In the case of this person, she
continued to appreciate it, but she just knew that she
couldn't you know, other people would not, so she didn't
share it with most other people. UM. But it really
(25:19):
is important that the parents know that there they don't
need to worry if their children talk about sis synistate experiences.
It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the child. Um.
There are many actually positive effects of synaesthetic experience. Synistheates
(25:40):
are are generally known to have particularly good memories. UM.
There was a study done at University of California at
San Diego that showed people with synesthesia various forms are
eight times more likely to be in the creative fessions
(26:01):
than people without synesthesia. Which means they're very very drawn
to innovation, creativity, the arts. Um. And you know, we
know that sometimes synesthesia is not in every case, of course,
but sometimes it's connected to some very very you know,
special abilities, um, even kind of savant like abilities. So
(26:25):
synesthesia is not something that parents should discourage in children.
Maybe try to listen, understand and encourage the child more
to talk about it and even to explicit Now, you know,
most parents are just most concerned does this prevent my
child from learning certain things? That's while that that they
(26:47):
have going through their heads, like is this a learning
disability or an extra ability? And you're leaning towards this
is more of an ability in the creative realm. But
there's also those who are very key into numbers and
musical notes and a spelling with synesthesia correct. Yes, actually
(27:08):
it seems to be um, you know, kind of an
enhancement of the ability to spell, because the words are
the child is kind of visualizing words quite automatically spelled
out in their different colors. Fascinating. Well, we've got to
get to our nets break. You are listening to Dark
(27:29):
Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis on the I Heart
Radio and Coast to coast am Pternival Podcast Network. We'll
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(30:08):
Welcome back. You are listening to Dark Becomes Light with
me Heidi Hollis on the I Heart Radio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network, And I have Pat
Duffy who is really giving us a low down on
what it is to be human. Some people would say superhuman,
but I'm feeling like this is a human ability that
(30:31):
so many of us do have. But it's not a
huge percentage necessarily. So how do we know that though?
I mean I think I heard the number was at
four percent of the population. Yeah, four percent of the
population experienced some form of synaesthesia. Um. And there are
I think according to the most recent data, there is
(30:54):
something like at least sixty five different different forms of synesthesia,
different ways that the senses can blend and and combine
and uh and and create particular perceptions. Um. So there
are many, many different forms of synesthesia. And it seems
the more we study it, the more we realize that
(31:16):
it's a it's a it's a lot more common. When I,
for example, when I first started doing my research into synesthesia,
which was probably in the early nineteen nineties. I think
the statistics I read were, oh, this is something extremely rare.
Maybe one in ten million people experience this. And okay,
after the Cambridge University study it was one in two thousand.
(31:38):
That was back in the n or something like that.
Now with you know, with subsequent studies, we realize it's
even a lot more common than that. It's something like,
you know, as you said, four percent of the population um.
When it comes to the kind of synesthesia that I experience,
the colored word colored numbers synesthesia is between one and
(32:01):
two percent of the population um. It's probably one of
the most common forms of synesthesia. Uh, and it's also
been probably the most studied form um. But I think
there's a lot a lot more, a lot more studies
to be done in this area. I also think that
synesthesia opens a door to considering so many different types
(32:26):
of perceptions, um that all of us have, because it's
not only people with synesthesia, it's every person on the
planet that has a very unique neural pattern, a very
unique way of processing information and and for coding knowledge.
And then in the opening you mentioned personal coding, and
(32:48):
that's what I mean that now and it's not an
emotional thing or can it evoke and intertwined emotions like
when somebody hears music they might get goose bumps. Uh that,
I mean, it doesn't quite make sense. Why would somebody
get goose bumps? I mean, is that kind of a
laid into synesthesia type experiences or what are we what
(33:11):
are we speaking of as all neurological or is that
spiritual emotional content deep in there? I think it's I
think it's uh, you know, it's all part of a continuum,
let's say, of or you know, of a spectrum of
possible ways human ways, right that we can react for
(33:32):
some people report a very you know, a very great
emotional component to their synaesthetic experience. Um. Certainly with music.
Music evokes emotions anyway, and the color is just becomes
another aspect of that, you know, that that emotional you know,
simulation that the person feels. Um in the even in
(33:56):
the case of words synesthesia, there I've been tribuwed synies
states that personify the letters of the alphabet. They say,
I don't experience this myself, but um, you know a
number of people will say, oh yeah, each letter of
the alphabet has a particular personality. And there are some
letters that I like because you know, they're very they're
(34:18):
very kind of easy going and friendly, like like the
letter OH or the letter P. And there are some
letters like K that I don't like because you know
that you know, they're kind of a sharp angular, you know,
nervous sort of sort of person if it's not that
warm and and fuzzy. UM. So, you know, people there
(34:38):
is an emotional component to synesthesia. I think the emotional
component might vary with with the individual. UM. There are
some people who are kind of more you, yeah, the
words have colors, but they don't feel a great emotional
attachment to any of the colors. It's just kind of
observing what they are. UM. So think people can experience
(35:01):
it many in many different ways. Interestingly, UM, there is
a professor Roger Walsh at the University of California, Irvine,
and UH he found that people who don't normally experience
synesthesia will experience it when they are in very deep
(35:21):
states of meditation. He followed a group of very serious
meditators over a number of years, and he found that
this was an experience that quite a lot of them
began to have, even though they did not have it
before they started meditating or when they were not meditating.
So you know, this also kind of indicates some sort
(35:44):
of capacity in in in all of us, um for
for a synesthetic experience. We know that people report experiences
like that sometimes when they take hallucinogenic drugs, right, we
know that, UM people have report we did, oh yeah,
the music had all these ship moving shapes, and maybe
they did not experience that without the drug experience. But
(36:08):
obviously the drug activated something some capacity which maybe in
some people. Who knows why some people that capacity is
just automatically activated. That's fascinating because it lets us know,
like you said, it's just something that is attainable somehow
(36:28):
in some form. And and as we've discussed on another occasion, uh,
sometimes people have brain injuries and it triggers a certain
part of the brain to interpret the world as it
was meant to be maybe or however it is more
unique now to the person. So the brain is so magnificent.
(36:50):
And and you know, with the type of audience that
I have, and we're all into uh, matters of the
extreme and the mysterious, I'm areas of people who have
these different varieties of synaesthesia are interpreting also the world
of the paranormal or spiritual experiences more easily or more
(37:14):
profound than the next person. I mean, how how would
you think somebody could uh, Like, for instance, some people
see a ufo in the sky, there could be fifty
people there. Some people don't see anything, others see a handful,
will see extraordinary colors, while others will just see metal disk.
(37:35):
You know, Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah? This,
this is this is one of the great mysteries of perception.
And you know, and perhaps the study of things like
synaesthesia will will kind of enlighten us about that. But
but but you're absolutely right, I would say in interviewing,
(37:55):
you know a great number of synaesthes from my book,
there's there's really a kind of spectrum. I mean, there's
a there's a whole array of ways that people interpret
their synesthesia. However, um I would say that you know,
synesthesia synesthetic experiences have often been reported as part of
(38:18):
mystical experiences. Um I. There's for example, there is a
part of the Bible uh in Exodus where the people
are gathered with Moses at Mount Sinai, and it describes
how together. They all they all saw the voice of
(38:40):
God and heard visions. So it seems, you know that
that certainly sounds like a very synaesthetic description. Um. We
also know that, you know, Rambo and Baudelaire, right, these
great poets of the nineteenth century. Um, they were fascinated
(39:02):
with synesthesia. In fact, it was quite fashionable in that
in that circle of poets to be a true Synisthe
because some of the poets had these kinds of you know,
very kind of mystical experiences as a result of experimenting
with with drugs, right that were that were popular at
(39:23):
the time, with hashish and so on. They had experiences
like that. But Rambo actually, you know, he he loved
reading medical encyclopedias to try to find some reference to
what he had experienced, you know, during these altered states.
And in reading the medical encyclopedia he was amazed to
(39:46):
find that there was actually a documented condition. Back then
it was it was referred to more as chromosthesia, which
is you know, you know, uh sort of color sensation. Um.
And without taking any drugs at all. He said, wow,
you mean there are people who just they just experienced
what I experienced without doing anything special without ingesting anything.
(40:11):
And he thought these people must be connected automatically, in
touch with some more sublime level of reality. And there
was there was that belief among the circle of nineteenth
century poets, and in fact, it led Rambou to writing
a very famous, what became a very famous poem called
(40:34):
Sonnet of the Vowels, where he talks about how each
vowel has a different color and then um, you know,
that description kind of spins off into this description of
all sorts of surreal landscapes and and so on in
the poem. And interestingly, scientists at the time, the scientific
(40:55):
community was so fascinated by the poem that it actually
really you know, they began to to to study synesthesia.
War Before that, it had been a documented condition, but
people didn't, you know, most scientists didn't pay much attention
to it. Um. But after that, I think something like
four times the number of papers on synaesthesia were presented
(41:18):
as at a major academic conference in Paris, I think
it was the Conference on Physiological Psychology in eighteen eighty nine.
And and and after that, you know, the study of
synesthesia was was taken more seriously. It stopped at a
certain point um. People say when behavior of psychology came
(41:38):
in vogue later in the twentieth century, UM, and you know,
there was no way to kind of take in an
empirical way whether people were really having What did people
mean when they said they were having these these these
unusual experiences. We don't have any way to test for that.
How do we know it's really happening. Maybe it's just
their imagination. You know, things are often dismissed as you
(42:01):
as you've mentioned earlier, UM, things are often to dismissed as, oh,
it's just your imagination, UM, or maybe you're just an
artistic type of And indeed, even when it comes to
the topic of UFOs, but we're finding out o G.
The government had them all along. Well, we've got to
get to hardness break. You are listening to Dark Becomes
(42:21):
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(44:44):
are listening to Dark Becomes Light with me Heidi Hollis
on the I Heart Radio and Coast to Coast AM
Paranormal podcast network and I have Hat Duffy and Wow,
we're really getting into the conversations of what it is
to be a real human and seems like the possibilities
of evolutionary processes that are going on among a lot
(45:06):
of us four percent officially, but and we're finding that
it's something that can be triggered as well. And you know,
it's something when it comes to those who experience synesthesia,
and you're speaking of, you know, words that have colors
or sound to these individuals, is it always consistent what
(45:27):
they see and experience or is it something that's changing
for them as well? Well? Generally it's considered one of
the hall marks of of of synesthetic experience that um,
generally speaking, the colors if you have particular colors for
words or alphabet letters or musical notes that this is
this is very consistent. And in fact, that is one
(45:50):
of the tests. UM. You know, when UM universities do
their studies of synesthesia and they look for subjects, for volunteers,
so objects to be in these studies, well, they want
to know, you know, just this person really experienced synthesia,
or maybe they just think they do. They're not really
sure what it is, and they do give a test,
(46:11):
and one of those tests is that they have the
person identify all, for example, the colors they experience for
their alphabet, all twenty six letters and colors, and then
six months later they'll call they'll just, you know, without warning,
call them back into the lab and say, okay, could
you tell tell us what those colors are again? And
(46:33):
it has to be something like nine consistent. They know that, UM,
that it always is for genuine synesthates, and it's it's
not for for other people. Even if they try to
memorize most people, UM can't you know, can't retain all
of that existency without warning is important. Now this is
(46:55):
a this, this this little synaesthetic aspect of some people experience.
I think would be very distracting when people describe tasting
words or or names of things. It's like, I think
I understand better that phrase you put a bad taste
in my mouth. Well, interestingly, you know, I think some
(47:19):
of our metaphors might originate from people's synaesthetic experiences. Um.
But yeah, you're absolutely right. Um. Now, this is also
an interesting thing about you know. There there are different
kinds of synesthesia. There's what we call developmental synesthesia, which
means ever since the person can remember that, you know,
(47:41):
words have had color, or music has had colors or shapes,
they don't know what it is to experience that in
any other way. It's just always been that way as
far back as they can, you know, they can recall. Um.
There are other people who might suddenly developed the synesthetic
experience as a result of a brain injury. They might
(48:05):
have a head trauma, for example, and as a result
of that, uh, you know, sounds they hear in words
they here tend to take on colors which they did
not have before. There are differences in the two experiences,
um uh. For example, the people who have synesthesia as
(48:26):
a result of head injury, usually the colors are not
very consistent. They could. You know, you could hear the
same sound and it might be read one day in
green the next day. UM, and it is distracting for
those people. It's very distracting for those people because they
have you know, they have not experienced it before, this
suddenly coming into their consciousness. UM. It's not a way
(48:49):
that they've you know, they've kind of processed information before. However,
developmental synthesis who say, well, it's always been like that
for me, are not distract by the experience. It's just
part and parcel of what they've always how they've always
perceived the world, and it would seem very strange to
them if suddenly they didn't have it anymore. Um. If
(49:12):
you ask, you know, most synathees, and I'm sure there
are some exceptions, there might be, you know, there are
might be some people who say, oh, sometimes it's just
overwhelming and I would rather not have it, But the
vast majority will say, oh, no, I would never want
to lose it. If you said, well, if I could
snap my fingers and your synaesthesia would go away, would
(49:33):
you would you like that? They say no, no, why
would I want colors to disappear? Why would I want
this other dimension of things to disappear. It's a part
of you. And I find it interesting too. I've read
somewhere that those who are remote viewers or are considered
to be psychic or a medium, that the best ones
(49:55):
and those fields have synaesthesia. Well, you know, it wouldn't
it wouldn't. It wouldn't surprise me that that that would
be an aspect of their experience. It's just you know,
synesthesia is about kind of having more avenues, right, more dimensions, uh,
to process information, to process the world things that are
(50:20):
coming in. And so it wouldn't surprise me at all
of synesthesia was part of that for something. With the
folks that are experiencing the paranormal, the UFOs and even
something they consider to be interdimensional, I can see how
it is more profound for those certain people and how
they may be better at, say doing remote viewing, uh,
(50:44):
if they do have those extra avenues. That's it's it's
kind of intriguing. I'm I'm I'm really curious about some
of the scientific research and what they find when those
areas of the brain get triggered. But what stage would
you say this research is at. It sounds like it's
(51:05):
just forever growing, Like there's just so much that still
hasn't been covered. Yeah, I think right now, a lot
of Uh, you're absolutely right. I mean this is such
a vast field. Um, and I think we're we're still
in the very very beginning stages of it. Um. I
(51:26):
think it's some very important research going on now. Is
how synesthesia develops in in children. Um. A long time ago,
we had research on babies, you know where we know
that babies, let's say less than six months old, what
we could say that they all in a way of
synesthesia because um, you know, the you know the world
(51:50):
that the baby perceives as kind of coming in as
one undifferentiated whole because the brain has not developed enough
yet to kind of compartmentalize all of its functions. You
know that I'm hearing this, but I'm smelling this, but
I'm seeing this, I'm touching this. Um, you know, everything
(52:11):
is kind of is kind of one. So actually, one
theory of synesthesia is that that you know, as the
brain matures and begins to compartmentalize its functions, in some
people this doesn't come you know, this process that does
not completely take place, some overlap still remain and that
(52:34):
is why you know, those people will continue to have
this kind of blended perception in some area with maybe
words having tastes and and so on. However, very recently
we have more research on synesthesia in school aged children
because you know, as you said before, our parents are
very concerned. They want to know, ye know, they want
(52:56):
to know everything that um, their child maybe experienced saying
and if it's something that they should be concerned about
or or you know, not concerned about or um. So
I think this is a this is a real area
of focus right now. Another area focuses whether or not
synesthesia can be learned um by adults. Um can you
(53:18):
can you teach it? Um? And actually there there is
uh there is a researcher who says that he was
successful at teaching a group of adults to experience colored
words and asthesia too. Um after a nine week training
period where they they read, they read every day on
(53:40):
tablets where the words were written in in various colors
in a very consistent way. UM. So that after that
nine week period a lot of them would report actually
even when they read black text, you know, the usual
black text against a white background, in some way, they
would they would continue to experience the colors, which is
(54:02):
what syniestates will report to UM. The difference is that
that with that experimental group, it kind of all faded
for them, maybe you know, two or three months after
the study, where with syniestates it never fades. It's just
it just stays, just stays with fascinating. I think that
having more conversations about this, it's really going to expand
(54:23):
and open up a lot of people's minds to helping
to explain for themselves and others around them what it
is that they've been experiencing. I I know for myself
coming across us and and and getting some things explained
to me. I know that I have synesthesia. I know
I'm a synistate. And it seems like the list is
(54:43):
just growing and growing, all the different avenues that people
experience synesthesia. So I'm I commend you for your work
and for being so brave to step forward and and
being the first to report because uh, in your in
your book, because there's something special about the person that
does that. There's so many that could say they're a
researcher of this or that, but to be a researcher
(55:05):
and an experiencer even in the field of the mysterious
is really important. What are some of the resources that
you can give for people to learn more about this
The Synesthesia tree dot com um. I also hope that
that everyone is familiar with this wonderful column on synesthesia
in Psychology Today, a kind of regular blog that's written
(55:28):
by Maureen Sieberg, who's who's interviewed a great variety of
celebrated synithy. And by the way, this might be a
good a good chance to say that synisthates are in
good companies. Some people that are out there in the
public eye have talked a lot about their sinisation. For example,
Billie Eilish has talked about her experiences of the colors
(55:49):
of of music, as as Pharrell Williams Rights famous for
his song Happy. There are more and more synisthy characters
in fiction. It is is growing and growing. And Maureen
is a great friend and she interviewed me but in
Psychology today, so I feel fortunate to meet you and
her and wow, opening up a lot of eyes. Thank
(56:11):
you so much, Patricia Duffy for coming on the show today.
This is great. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm
so so enjoyed talking to you, thank you, thank you,
Blue Cats and Sharp Truth Kittens. Everybody be sure to
check out her new audible book and also remember to
go to shadow Folks dot com or Heidi Hollis dot
com and send over whatever it is that you're experiencing
(56:33):
out of the ordinary. And with that we've come to
the bottom of another fabulous episode. I hope to catch
you next week. This has been Dark Becomes Light with
me Heidi Hollis on the I Heart Radio and Coast
to Coast a paranamble podcast network. We'll see you next time.
Be safe, goodbye, everybody. M h M. Well, if you
(57:05):
liked this edition of Dark Becomes Light, wait till you
hear the next one. You've been listening to the I
Heart Radio and Coast Coast a m paranormal podcast network.
H
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