Bad Mormon with Heather Gay

Real Housewives of Salt Lake City star Heather Gay joins Chelsea to discuss the ins-and-outs of Mormonism (and leaving it), why she’s glad her husband left, and what it feels like to be disconnected from family.  Then: A pre-teen’s parent struggles with her daughter’s body image issues. A brand-new mom shares a house (and baby duties) with her cheating soon-to-be-ex-husband. And a small-town gal just wants to get laid.

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Bad Mormon by Heather Gay

Letting Go: The Pathway of Surrender

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Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail]

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Produced by Catherine Law

Edited & Engineered by Brandon Dickert

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The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, Hi everybody. Hi Catherine, Oh, hi Chelsea. Hi. What's
going on? It's May. We're deep into throws of bank.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
This year is going by very quickly, so fast, it's
what's happening. I don't like it.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
It just like rained for several months and then all
of a sudden, a summer.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yes, yes, since summertime is coming, and that means my
family is coming. Ooh, who's visiting? Everybody's visiting? No, no, no, no, no,
no one's visiting. I actually am homeless. In June, I
become homeless. Oh no, July and August.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yes, my house is not ready until August.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
And I decided to give up my rental because it
just makes no sense that I've been in this rental
and I'm home.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Twice a week. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
So I take a couple of months off of touring
and I'm just going to bounce around Europe and Africa.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Oh fantastic, that's a great place.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Those we came home, all.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
My nieces to Africa waiting have they been before?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
No, none of them have been.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Only my sissy and I have been to Africa, and
we're going back together and we have that She's like,
you're going to be really sick of me, or which
is coach for she's going to be sick of me
and my fucking mood swings. But where we have two
weeks together and then we have one week of just
a romantic couple.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
In the villa, right, and then I have three weddings.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I have Ben Bruno's wedding, I have my cousin Ted
his wedding, and then I have someone else's wedding.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm a groomsman and Ben Bruno's wedding, so that's a
lot of responsibility. But that's the only thing I'm flying
back for.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
So I'll be in the stage for a weekend for
Ben Bruno's wedding.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Just like jet lagged af and then no, I.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Think we can fuck around that quickly, like it doesn't
have time to catch up, you know what I mean.
If I go in and out real quick of time zones,
then it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Then it's like fine, I know, well, I am abandoning
my husband to go to Mexico for a week with
a couple of my girlfriends.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Nice, I know, I'm very week.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
For about like five days, four nice five days. We've
got like a little spot that we love to go
and me and the same two girlfriends have gone.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Like the last few years. Nice.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
That's awesome, nice, very nice. So he has three pugs
to take care of all by himself, love you.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Mmmm well, they'll probably be perfectly trained by the time
you get.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Of course they will.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
They'll be seven whole months old.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
Well, hey, Chelsea, just like you and your sister, she's
looking to become a midlife lesbian.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh is she? Oh? Wow?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Well that must be a reflection of your performance, Bratt.
I do try well, not hard enough, I guess.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Well, whoopsie do at all? Well?

Speaker 3 (02:25):
On that note, should we intro our guest for today?

Speaker 1 (02:27):
I am so excited? Oh yes, we haven't.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Reformed Mormon on my favorite topic of conversation, Mormonism.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yes, And you know what, I'm not a big Housewives fan,
but The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is the
only one that I actually watch, and Heather is my favorite.
I think she's great.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
But I'm just gonna say for the record, I don't
watch the Housewives. I've never seen The Housewives. I saw
what episode once as a favorite of my assistant to
try and figure out what she's interested in, and I
decided I'm not interested anyway. So I just want to
make that claimer because I don't want to pretend that
I've seen a show that I haven't seen, even though
that's probably polite for the guest. Our guest is a

(03:07):
housewife and she's currently starring in The Real Housewives Ultimate
Girls Trip Thailand. And she recently opened the second location
of Beauty Lab and Laser in Utah. And she is
a New York Times bestselling author of Bad Mormon, owner
of Beauty Lab and Laser, and star of Bravos Real
Housewives of Salt Lake City.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Heather Gay Hi, Heather, Hi.

Speaker 5 (03:30):
I'm so nervous.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Oh, don't be, don't be. We're gonna have to just Oh,
I need a hit of it Inhaler, Do you have
another one? Fuck? I should have brought my.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Chelsea's and Haler's have a little more tea in them.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
I just yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I just was pulling out the things that are in
my purse that my house keeper packs me up with
every day because I'm like a little baby that going
off to school.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Every time I leave the house, and she has.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Like little stones, crystals, gummies with THHD and then a
little heart, a little heartstone that says strength, and she's like,
this is so funny.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I go, I know, but what I'm missing is a
fucking in.

Speaker 5 (04:04):
Hale or it's like a diaper bag exactly. You need
halar and then like a quiet book and some cheerios.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
And that's like, yeah, exactly, all right, Heather, there's no
reason to be nervous.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
What are you nervous about?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Are you nervous about talking or are you nervous about
the questions I'm gonna ask.

Speaker 5 (04:20):
I'm just nervous because I'm excited, you know. I'm like,
this is a big, big moment for me, Chelsea handler.
You know, I'm trying to like not be too effusive
and just be cool. Just be cool.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
That's my mantrage Yeah cool, cool cool. Yeah great, that's
a great start for all sad.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
So, Heather, we I read your book. We both read
your book about leaving Mormonism. And I speak for both
Catherine and myself when I say we are fascinated by Mormons.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yes, And Chelsea has a family connection.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
I do have a family connection because my sister was
a Mormon for a while and then I think she
slowly stepped out of it. She hasn't brought it up
in years, so we just pretend that it's over.

Speaker 5 (05:00):
And mention it.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
But my mom was Mormon, and she was from Germany actually,
and she grew up Mormon, which is interesting, and then
they came over to the United States.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
So I know a little bit about Mormonism.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, I guess I probably know more than the average
person because I lived with and we had, you know,
the church at our house all the time. And what
I do find very amusing though in modern times, in
today's times, is that what Mormon people do to avoid
having sex that actually is sex, Like what is it called.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
I've done these things.

Speaker 5 (05:32):
On dogging, arm pittying, all the things.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
And it's like, hey, guys, that's fucking just so you know,
you're still having sex.

Speaker 5 (05:42):
Any hole, but the holy hole. That's the mantra.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I hate when religion tells you not to have sex.
Religion is the root of all evil as well. Okay,
so tell us about your departure, because it happened probably
as a result of you being on the Housewives Right
of Salt Lake.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah, I mean going on house was for sure like
rip the band aid off. It'd been kind of a
slow bleed, but with like the church. You just don't
leave when you're surrounded by it and it's your family
and it's everybody, you just don't talk about it. If
you're not living it. You do it quietly and silently,
you know, behind the closed doors. But you tow the
line and you play the game. And I had been
doing that for years and then, but I knew that

(06:19):
if I went on reality television, I had to own
it one way or the other. Either had to become
a devout Mormon again, which was out of the cards
and probably would take like a huge disciplinary process through
the church for that to happen, or I had to.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Just stop right there. What kind of disciplinary processes are there?

Speaker 5 (06:35):
Okay, Well, every you meet with your local leaders regularly,
so like you meet with them quarterly or anytime that
you get a new assignment or anytime there's a shake up,
like with leadership. And they are men in your neighborhood
that you go to church with weekly, So they're not
kind of They're not like guys you can pull the
wool over their eyes. It's men that like know if
you're showing up to church, they know you in the community.
They know if you're wearing a modest clothing. They know

(06:57):
if you're messing around, they know you. You know, they're
your neighbors and your friends, and they are also your
leaders and they're in charge of you. So you have
to answer very specific a list of questions every time
you meet with them in order to like get a calling,
or go to the temple and have your temple license,
which we call a temple recommend renewed, and it's a
digitized just like a driver's license. You go to the temple,

(07:19):
they scan it. If it beeps, you get to go in.
If it doesn't, you are on.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
You're out on the street.

Speaker 4 (07:26):
So if you.

Speaker 5 (07:26):
Answer those questions wrong, then there's a disciplinary process and
they decide how bad it was. If you messed up,
like if you said I drank a beer, you could
probably just handle it with your bishop locally right there.
But if you had an affair, if you had sex,
if you associated with any anti Mormon group, if you
weren't wearing your garments day and night, then they would

(07:46):
kick it up to a regional leader, and that regional
leader would determine if the sins were merited. A disciplinary council,
which is a group of twelve men from the surrounding
area called area authorities, and they're your friend's husbands. Like
it's not just it's not just a panel. It's like
the people that you go to church with that you see.

(08:07):
It's the principle. It's like the entire community, like the doctor,
the baker, the candlestick maker, and they're all just kind
of like Handmaid's Tale. They're all sitting at a around
a table in white shirts, ties and suits, and you
sit there and you tell them all of your sins.
You tell them how many times you've had sex with
the person, or drank or you know, stepped out, anytime

(08:28):
you've broken the rules. They make you detail. It's kind
of like a venting of an airing of sins.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
It's kind of like scientology.

Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yeah, like an audit. I guess it would be similar
to like an audit. And then they determine, they meet,
they'd send you out, and then they determine your punishment.
And it can be excommunication, it can be probation. It
can be called disfellowship. And disfellowship means you can't take
the sacrament, you can't say public prayers, you can't teach lessons,
but you still have not lost your baptismal covenants. If

(08:59):
you're excommunicating, you have to get rebaptized, you have to
go through the missionary discussions, you have to pretend like
you're a virgin in the Mormon Church.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
And I think it's so interesting too that you say
like a panel of men, because it is men. It's
not a jury of your peers, including women and other people.
It is just men who are the leaders of the
Mormon churches.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Men.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
I mean, really, religion is the beginning of patriarchy. Yeah, absolutely,
really was, because before that we were a patriarchal society
and it became patriarchal because of religion. So when you left,
your mother's still part of the church, right, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
My whole family, except for two siblings, are all active
devout members that have never acknowledged the book, have not
sent a text, not sent a note, not mentioned it
at Christmas dinner. Nothing, It's like it doesn't exist. The
show existed for the first few months, like they would
talk about it because it was kind of tittillating and
fun and might be innocuous. But then once I wasn't

(09:52):
speaking well of the church, once I was drinking on camera,
you know, swearing doing all the things. Then they acted
like they just turned the television off and it does
doesn't exist either.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Denial is also part of religion.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
It's completely denial of reality or things that don't you know,
vibe with what you're putting out there totally.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
We were just talking about this, like how you're going
on a Real Housewives sort of was at the same
time as you were starting to leave the church or
have these sort of epiphanies of like maybe this isn't
for me, and that your bishop when you asked him
if you should go on the show, actually said like yes,
but take a glass of milk anytime you're at a
party with alcohol, so you're presenting the appearance of not drinking.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Like, yeah, the facade.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Is something that I find so interesting in what you
talk about.

Speaker 5 (10:37):
Well, we believe it's like a codependence, like we have
a responsibility to not only share the gospel and convert
everyone in our circle, but to represent for like anyone
in around us. We don't speak or dwell on sin.
We don't talk about it, Like when I got my
reckless drive and he's like, don't speak of it. This
is not part you know, just stamp it out forget
it ever happened. And you think that that would be

(10:59):
like that would cultivate a culture of positivity, but it's
really just a culture of shame and secrecy. Also, we're
supposed to be the happiest people on earth, so it's
a big you know, there's a conflict there, there's an edge.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Is that what Mormons think they are the happiest people
on earth?

Speaker 5 (11:14):
Well, we believe that the plan, the Mormon Plan, is
the plan of happiness and that men are that they
might have joy, you know that is and your righteousness
is absolutely you know how Jewish people can be like
upset and Jewish and it's like they can still be
devout Jews Mormons. If you don't have a smell on
your face, you must not be righteous, you must not
be blessed, you must not love the Lord because we

(11:34):
believe that like our choices dictate our blessings, and happy
people are blessed. You know, that's a sign of how
blessed you are, is how happy you are. So we're
fronting not only just to ourselves but to our community
because it's status. The happier you are, the higher your status.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
And do they care about money and wealth? And all
of that individually.

Speaker 5 (11:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we're we're I think we're tempered,
well meaning, like frugal people, like we're with so full
and I don't think like I'm a spend thrift, but
like we believe, like the only people that get the
high leadership lines are the extremely wealthy in the church
because they have to have discretionary and time and income
because they devote, you know, thirty hours a week to
shepherding the community as you know, lay leaders in the church.

(12:17):
So you can't you can't have a fifty hour a
week job and also be a bishop, you know.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
And you're also the only religion, well maybe not the
only religion. I think there's some Middle Eastern religions that
also adhere to this. But then you have living prophets,
like men are just named to be or deemed a
prophet while they're alive, which is such a crock of shit.
I mean, it's a if you want me to believe
in profits, then they at least have to be dead.

Speaker 4 (12:43):
It's true.

Speaker 5 (12:43):
It's the true and living prophet. We believe he's the
voice of God on the earth, and he has twelve
apostles that meet with him. And they do a conference
semi annually and we all listen to it. It's hours long.
And at the last conference, they denounced transgender, they denounced
diverse city, they denounced same sex marriage, they denounced everything.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
But at the same time, I thought the Church of
Latter day Saints had put out a statement saying they
accepted gay people into the church. They don't condone it,
but they accept them.

Speaker 5 (13:13):
No, you as long as you don't act on it.
You can can't law of chastity, you cannot be gay,
you can't can't or touch same sex. And the only
people they get to heaven are sis gender heteronormative heterosexual marriages.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
But if you're gay and you put your penis and
another woman's vagina, but you don't move it back and forth,
that's okay, right, you'll be.

Speaker 5 (13:35):
Heralded in heaven. If you're gay and you put in
a vagina and you do move it back and forth,
and you have children and you toe the line and
you raise a family up unto God and you deny
your sinful feelings of homosexuality is how we would.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
Look at it, right, So just be a totally different
person and you'd be fine.

Speaker 5 (13:52):
And then when you get to heaven, God will fix you.
And that's what I would tell my kids, you know, like,
it wasn't really that I believed this whole hardly is
just what I lived. It was my neighbors, it was
their friends, it was what I did, you know, twenty
hours a week. It was just my entire world. But
as soon as I had to answer a hard question,
we would just say, God'll figure it out, don't worry
about it. You know, it'll never happen to us. And

(14:12):
then you get divorced, and then you get a duy
or whatever happens, and it's happening to you, and your
kids are growing up and you have to face them,
and you have to face yourself, and if you go
on TV, you have to face the TV audience. But
there were some hard stops that forced me to just
to do this, to kind of leave openly and leave loudly.
I wouldn't say proudly, but loudly.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, Yeah, I like it. I'm behind you one hundred percent.
As they say, I'll say one hundred and seventy five percent.
No one's saying that.

Speaker 5 (14:41):
That's good, thank you, thanks, you're welcome.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
So this is a local question. I was just reading
the paper over the weekend about Salt Lake, the Lake
of Salt Lake, the Great Salt Lake, and how it's
deteriorated and it's basically a quarter of the size it
was even twenty years ago.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
I have a question, do you know if this crazy.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Snowfall that you guys got and around Salt Lake City
is going to change the size of that lake.

Speaker 5 (15:07):
Mormons have been praying for moisture every single prayer in
church and constantly, and so because we've been seeing the
Great Salt Lake dry up and it's a sign of
the end of days, last coming and or global warming,
you know, we take it over the.

Speaker 6 (15:23):
Lap.

Speaker 5 (15:24):
And I mean it was snowing this morning. It was
a blizzard this morning, so I'm hoping. But you know,
I don't care much about the moisture and the Great
Salt Lake. I should, but I'm just not deeply invested.
It smells I know.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, I just don't want to deal with what's happening
in this world right now. It is so scary and
oh anyway, sorry, I digress. So I want to talk
about your relationship with your mom. So your mom are
you She's not talking to you because you left the church, right.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Yeah, I mean and Ashal, Yeah, Like I saw her
at Christmas. We didn't even exchange Christmas greetings barely. I
gave her like a stiff hug, and then everybody just
ignored me and said, how are you keeping busy? And
what are you going to do when your youngest graduates
from high school? And I thought, live my life, like,
I mean, they just don't. It's just this really weird,
strained thing that I feel like, why am I here?

(16:13):
Like why am I like pandering to these people and
acting like they are interested in anything I'm doing when
they're totally making me feel crazy?

Speaker 2 (16:20):
And why are you there so your children have a
relationship with your family or because you really do. I mean,
I'm sure you still would like a relationship.

Speaker 5 (16:27):
But I mean I've thought a lot about that because
Christmas was a little bit more intense. The book was
coming out in February, was right there, all the press
was hitting, and I thought about it, and I think
that one, I don't want to be one of those
weird people that their family hates them.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
You know.

Speaker 5 (16:40):
It just seems like it's like this sign that you're troubled.
So I think there's part of that that like wants
that validity or reassurance. But also for my kids, I
feel bad. And also I grew up with tons of cousins,
and I grew up with this like multi generational family
feeling Sundays where everyone getting together and Christmas Eve, like
all of my friends with their ten siblings and all

(17:02):
their kids, and I just, you know, I want that
for them, and I feel like I have to create that,
so I, you know, chase after it, but it doesn't
exist for me here. It's really me and my kids,
and that's it. You know.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Another interesting thing, The main thing that breaks up families
is religion, because gay people get separated from their families
when they're religious. I mean, isn't that so ironic when
you think about it, because even people still talk to
their siblings when they murder someone and their kids and
their fathers. But if you're not religious and I'm religious,

(17:36):
then it's over.

Speaker 5 (17:37):
Yeah. I mean, my siblings won't extend like readings of Love,
but they've all like made sure they did disparaging reviews
of the book. You know, don't read it, read the
Book of Mormon. Instead. They feel like it's supporting me
or supporting God, and if you're up against God and
someone's devotion to God, you're never going to win, you know,
I'm never They're never going to pick me over their martyrdom.

(17:58):
And it's just it feels like it's battle. Like I
keep saying, maybe my next book will be Bad Love
How to Escape toxic families, because I don't want to
have to go after them anymore and and prove myself
or accept them or understand them or explain it. I
just don't want to feel that sadness anymore.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, and how did your kids handle all the separation
from the church and everything.

Speaker 5 (18:20):
Well, they were like wary at first, but then when
they realized. Well, I think my college daughter, when she
realized it, she could go to college and drink and
be a true sorority girl. She's living her best life.
She's nineteen, a fan of Barbara, and I'm living vicariously
through her, you know. I just it feels like a
second life for me to watch her just party. And

(18:41):
when I went to parents' weekend, she like came out
in this braw thing and she's say, it's lingerie. I
turned into a shirt, you know. And when I was
at college, I had to have cap sleeves. I wasn't
allowed to wear anything that didn't touch my knees or
I'd get reported to the Honor Code office, you know.
Like it's just to see her like be kind of
sex positive and free and party. And she suggested a

(19:01):
drink to me, and I was just like, whoa. You know,
I just didn't grow up like that. And it makes
me feel like I broke the chain a little bit.
And my you are into it too.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, that must feel good for you for your kids.

Speaker 5 (19:13):
It's good.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
It's a real mama bear move, breaking that kind of cycle,
you know, anything so restrictive. I just feel like it's
such an inhibitor to a person's development.

Speaker 5 (19:22):
Yeah, And I think it's it's what you said about
the patriarchy too. I mean I had three daughters and
it's like I've raised them alone and I've never I've
never needed their dad. I feel bad saying that, you know,
but like I've done it on my own, and I
for them, it's more like that no restrictions. They can
become and be whatever they want. And I think that
it really was healing for them to see their mom

(19:44):
do this and not have to. You know, we decorate
the house how we want. We don't ask for money
for the movies. Like we are a matriarchal little society
and that makes me fucking proud.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
How's your relationship with your ex husband? Well, I'm assuming
you guys don't talk that.

Speaker 5 (19:59):
Much, but yeah, we don't talk to them much.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
He's Mormon, right, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (20:02):
He's Mormon. He uh. He like started doing spiritual thoughts
with the girls when he'd see them, and trying to
make sure that he could like countermand any negative influence
I was giving them. But he's just not a big
influence in our life, you know. He he left and
we just have been on our own since the girls
were little.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
You know.

Speaker 5 (20:19):
He left in twenty eleven.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Aren't you so glad he left.

Speaker 5 (20:23):
I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I
would have I would have been one of those Martyred moms,
just resentful. Probably. I don't know what I would have done,
but I wouldn't have been the mom I wanted to
be to my kids, because I would be trying to
raise them so that he thought I was a good wife,
you know, and not raising them just to be these
like spirit animals whatever they want to be, and that
feels like the most freeing honestly.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, because whatever I read or hear about a breakup,
because you know, when you're in the thick of it,
obviously doesn't feel good and you can't see the forest
for the trees.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
But whenever I read or hear about.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
It or I'm talking to someone, I'm like, I just
want I want you to just have thirty seconds of
a window into your life in six months and going
to say thank you, Like absolutely, it's always always okay.
Everyone survives breakups over and over again. There is a
period of time where you think it's unsurvivable, and then
you move into the next phase, and then you get

(21:14):
to a phase where you're like, well, thank god somebody
ended that so I didn't have to.

Speaker 5 (21:18):
It's absolutely true. I think we need to change the
narrative around it, like change the narrative that women need
a man to be complete or satisfied, and change the
narrative that divorces the scarlet letter and the mark of failure,
like have a man in college, have a man to
have kids with, then raise them with somebody else and
retire someone else, or just be single your whole life,
like I will never remarry. I don't want my daughters

(21:38):
to necessarily even put it on their vision board. But
I grew up with hope chest and baby names, and
my dad said, I'll pay one hundred dollars for every
baby you name off the sealed envelope. You know, it's
just this weird concept of everything I was raised to
do is just to be a wife and mother. So
I had to reframe all of that when it fell apart,
and all of that was steeped in religion, religion in

(21:59):
the patrio.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
And also instead of calling it a breakup, we should
just call it getting back together with ourselves.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yes, yes, like I'm going back to me.

Speaker 5 (22:10):
I'm coming back for you, baby, I'm coming.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Back, circling back and then I'll branch out later down
the road for sure.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
What's happening with your love life these days? Heather?

Speaker 5 (22:21):
Just like absolutely nothing. I mean, come on, I just
for a while, I was like kind of hoping that
like the celebrity and stuff would like get me laid
and it would just have like.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
No, it's harder to get laid when you're a celebrity.

Speaker 5 (22:35):
Yeah, And I just think guys don't really like strong,
funny women. I just think they don't. Honestly, it's just
not attractive.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
To No, it's not.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
It's not attractive because that's what they're supposed to provide.
So if you're providing the same thing, they don't need it.
They're like, well, wait, I'm the strong one.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
Yeah, why are you here? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (22:52):
They may think they like it, but when it's put
into practice, it's a much different endeavor. Although that's not
to say all men. Obviously, there are men out there
that can handle a strong woman. I've met them, and
I've dated some. Most of the ones I've dated, though,
have been brief. Maybe I wasn't able to recognize it.
But it's a sometimes this is a show. It's head
for a couple of months.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
You know what I mean. Yeah, but you should be
on some I hope you're on some sites or something.

Speaker 5 (23:15):
I haven't gone online. I think I'm still kind of
steeped in this shame of like the spinster woman. That's
like trying to find a man, like I don't know,
Like I feel like when I got divorced and I
had kids, it was over, like I had to just
now be this mom. But now I'm at this space
where I'm feeling myself a little bit. I want to
get out there, but I'm not online. And I also
tend to just date like really young, dumb guys that

(23:37):
are just in it for the fun, you know, And
that's just feels like treading water. And it makes me
feel validated and like I'm not dried up and I'm
still active out there, but it's just it also feels
a little bit just like spinning your wheels. I don't
know if I'm comfortable enough in my new identity to
like be with the person without.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
It's still no yeah, it's still new and there's no rush.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
I mean, I take so much time to myself after
every relationship, just to get back together with myself. Like
I said, like I'm like, all right, I know I'm
not going to be single forever. You're not gonna be
single forever. There's gonna be dalliances and then there's gonna
be relationships. That's just the nature of life and being
a person that's outgoing enough to be on television. Like, yes,
it's harder to meet people, I think when you're a celebrity,

(24:22):
because it's just an awkward kind of mix, you know what.
I mean, it's strange, Like I go through my dms
and when guys are like hitting on me or whatever,
I'll take a look at their profile.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
But if it's a private account, I'm not going.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
To follow you to find out if you look like.
I'm not that desperate, you know what I mean. I'm like,
I'm gonna look like, oh okay, because you can look
through a whole Instagram page and get a good idea
of what kind of person you're dealing with. And I'm
not opposed to hooking up with a stranger on the
road that hits me up.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
I'm down. I just have to be too.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
I have to make sure that you're like normal and
smart and you know, not an idiot, and you don't
have like, you know, spiky jewelry or something.

Speaker 5 (25:02):
Like a Samurai sword above your bed.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Any jewelry is a non starter for me on a man,
I don't want to see anything. But anyway, okay, Well,
we're happy that you're here today, and we're happy that
you're a free of the church, free of marriage, and
feeling yourself because that is the best combination that you
could hope for, is to be able to well, not combination,
The best tenant. I think for anybody is to be

(25:24):
feeling yourself. And I'm sure that it took you a
long time to feel this good.

Speaker 5 (25:29):
Oh for sure. I mean it's like within the last
few weeks. It's really ever since I hit the best
seller list. That's really when it clicked.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
No arguing with congratulations on that, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
As we said before, the book is called Bad Mormon
in case you missed it, So make sure you pick
up a copy so we can keep either on the
New York Times list.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yes, okay, So Catherine, what do you have in store
for Oh, some good stuff.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
I am going to need your help getting one of
our callers, laid ladies.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
A great, great coming from two people who.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
We've got some mom stuff and we've got an ex
Mormon divorce thing going on. So we'll take a quick
break and we'll be right back with Heather and Chelsea.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
And we're back. We're back. Hi, Hi, Hi, Heather, Chelsea
and Catherine, it's Chessa.

Speaker 5 (26:22):
It's straight to be back.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
Well.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Our first email comes from Kara. Kara says, dear Chelsea,
I'm the mother of three girls, ages eight, five, and two.
My oldest who will turn nine in September was just
diagnosed with central precocious puberty syndrome, and I am struggling.
So basically what that means is like, she's just going
through puberty super early. She's already taller than most of

(26:46):
the other kids in her class and has started to
develop breasts and other signs of puberty. We're a really
open house and we talk about body parts and periods
and all of that.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
But I'm struggling.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
What I'm struggling with is teaching her body empowerment and pride.
She's absolutely gorgeous, but feels out of place compared to
the other girls in her class. We're also at the
stage where when we try to talk about things, she
gets embarrassed and either shuts down completely or hello hormones,
lashes out and yells, which she then feels terrible about.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Later.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
She's the only one in her class who has to
wear a bra, and some of the other kids have
noticed and asked why. I come from a long line
of body shamers and struggle with my own self image,
so I try not to say things about my weight
or my looks in front of my daughters, unless I'm
saying how absolutely bang in an outfit is that day,
but yet I still feel like I'm failing. She will
only wear oversized T shirts to school now, even though

(27:36):
she has a whole closet full of clothes she picked
out but has now decided she's quote too big four
and will say things like I miss wearing that outfit.
Mornings are rough because getting everyone out the door and
the outfit picking can lead to big emotions. I just
want her to feel comfortable and confident in her skin.
Any suggestions, Thanks so much, Kara.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
You've raised three girls. Yeah, you go first, your mother here.

Speaker 5 (28:01):
I mean, yeah, listen, get a prescription for xanax, get
some therapy. It's going to be a referend. I mean, yeah,
this is you know, it's like it doesn't change. Like
you can't teach body, and you can set a good example.
You can create a safe space where they don't have
to worry about it. You can pull them from school
if it's horrible, because it's just like just the intuitive

(28:23):
to what your kid needs and what helps me when
I because I try to control and fix and I'm
great at presenting, you know, like I want them to like, well,
you know, don't we're oversized. It makes you look boxy,
like I know all the shit because I grew up
with it, right, But I'm so over it, and I'm
so sick of trying to like overcompensate for what I
look like and trying to read the room and see

(28:44):
who's safe and who's likes. People that are do not
have good bodies or you know what I mean. But
at eight, man, that's way too early to even deal
with it. So I would just say, try to remember
who you were when you were eight, not what your
body looked like or not how people treated you, but
who you were inside, and then talk to your daughter
like you would wish somebody to talk to you when
you're eight.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
You know, well she actually she's nine, right, well almost nine?
Oh okay, yeah almost nine?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Okay, so well, Heather, thank you for listening. Then I
would also add in, I think the most powerful thing
you can do with a little girl is let her
do whatever the fuck she wants, clothing wise, whatever she wants.
Obviously she can't dress in a negligee when she's six.
But I think, however, kids feel the most comfortable that
they're gonna feel is the most important, because comfort is

(29:29):
a paramount to everything and if she wants to wear big,
baggy clothes for the next two years, letter, that's better
than the alternative, you know what I mean, or the
opposite end of the spectrum. Because kids have to be
confident in who they are. That is the number one
thing that amounts to a decent sense of self esteem
and a sense of self Like you have to know
your personality and be able to move in the direction

(29:52):
that you feel, and your parents are there to guide you,
not to stop you. You know, you have to guide
children in the right direction. They're endangering themselves. That is
a separate issue. But as far as expressing themselves through
clothing or feeling comfortable in their clothing, I think that
anything goes and just be there to be a guide

(30:12):
and a support system for this incremental period of time
that will be over when all the other girls at
school get boobs. Yeah in two years.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
Yeah boats. I was thinking what you said earlier, Like
it gets better, It'll change. It's just it's just one
year of school. And like if we look back on
our lives, I remember maybe one thing from second grade
or one thing from third grade, you know what I mean, Like,
just focus on the good and the fun and just
kind of barrel through the bad.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
As the parent just know that it'll be one year,
because the kids don't understand one year.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
When you're nine, you've only had nine.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Year eight years, so you're like a year sounds like
an eternity. Also, another quick story is I used to
when I got my boobs. I got them really young,
when I was twelve at the time. Now it's getting
even younger. But I taped them down because I was
so embarrassed because they were big right away.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
They came in overnight, and I remember my mom.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
I taped a lot of things down at different times
in my life, and my mom saw me do it.
I did it with my thighs once to make my
thighs smaller, and she kind of said, you can't do
that again. But when she saw it do it with
my boobs, she just went, oh, honey, and she didn't
say another word about it. I was embarrassed that she
caught me because we didn't have an open dialogue about
that stuff, Like I was kind of private about it.

(31:25):
But after she caught me, I was like, oh, I
started doing it in front of her and she never
said anything about it, and I didn't do it for
very long, because it wasn't long before everyone else had
boobs too, and then I was like, oh, okay, all right,
we're all together here.

Speaker 5 (31:39):
That's smart.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
One thing too, that might be helpful is doing a
little closet purge. Like make it a fun thing. Take
a Saturday and go through and be like, you know what,
we're going to go on a shopping trip. Find some
stuff that you like better than what you have now,
So let's go through the closet and just do a
little closet purge in anticipation of buying her a few things.
You know, but I think it's gonna love.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
She's good, But I think it's you know, wearing an
oversized T shirt is a very significant part of.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yes, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's like, that's what you do at a certain age,
and it's usually when you're developing.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Now, I see.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Girls that are really young and that want to show
off their bodies. I'm like, oh wow, look at you.
They seem too young to be doing that. But I'm like,
what the fuck do I know? Like what can't you know?
Let them do whatever like makes them happy and confident, confident.

Speaker 5 (32:26):
It's tricky with women because we want to say, like,
you're not your body, you're your personality. But that's a lie.
Beauty is currency for women, and we have to fight
it and like overcome it every single day and it sucks,
you know, but it's it's hard to be honest with
your kids, you know.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, waking up every morning having to overcome my own beauty, it's.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Exhausting and taxing.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
I look at myself and I'm like, oh my god,
girl's tricky. You better stay in today if you don't
want to see any car accidents.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Okay, what do we have next?

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Okay, well, our next question. This is a caller who's
going to be joining us, and her name is Meg.
She says, Dear Chelsea, thank you so much for being
my inspiration for what a socially conscious, independent and hilarious
woman can and should be. I'm hoping to channel some
of your power as I overcome my life's biggest hurdle
so far. My husband and I married at eighteen and

(33:27):
twenty two, respectively. We've been married almost thirteen years and
have a fourteen month old son to care for. Unfortunately,
I left the Mormon church at twenty five, and my
husband followed me out three years later. It's now been
three years of us being together as post Mormon people,
and three challenging years of couple's therapy after he had
an affair in his initial panic over his departure from

(33:49):
the church. Now he's saying he feels claustrophobic and can't
recover from the religious trauma he endured while in our marriage.
He says he still loves me, but that he needs
us to separate to find himself. I respect that he's
been through a lot. He was raised in the church
while I was a convert, so it wasn't as traumatic
for me. How do I learn to set boundaries with
the only person I've lived with for thirteen years. We're

(34:10):
stuck living together for at least the next few months
when our lease ends. And then what I backburnered my
career for twelve years while he became an MD. I've
never been a single adult and I'm thirty one. I
am excited for the possibilities that lie ahead after his
pain subsides, but feeling lost in the soup of all
this change. Please help me find my power. I'm done
feeling like a victim. I just don't know how to

(34:32):
start belonging to myself after all this time, with love
and gratitude. Meg Hi, meg hi.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Meg hi. Look at how cute you I am.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
You can't worry about you?

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Ready for your life?

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Girl?

Speaker 5 (34:50):
Poor face begins now.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Oh my god, you have your whole world in front
of you.

Speaker 5 (34:58):
Yes, yeah, you're gonna be okay, you're gonna be great.
You're gonna be better than great.

Speaker 4 (35:03):
Wow. Done.

Speaker 5 (35:05):
Give yourself the same freedom he wants because you deserve
it just as much and you will love it. And
just make sure he takes the baby half the time
so that you get the same break.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
Ye. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
I feel like there should be commercials for divorce because
there are so many upsides for divorce. A. You get
your kids fifty percent of the time, which sounds crazy
to people when you have babies because mothers can't be
apart from them. But do you understand how much freedom
that is going to bring to your life. When you
have a responsible fifty fifty to fifty divorce with your spouse,

(35:37):
you get to explore a whole other world, and that
world is of.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Someone without children.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Obviously, you're never without your children when you're a parent,
but like you're gonna be able to operate go on
trips with girls. Go, you know, do whatever you want
in your free time.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
Date.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
And I also want to just say, like, I think
you have a great opportunity. You have so many opportunities,
but you have a great opportunity during.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
This transition hout of your marriage to.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Really cement a great friendship with your ex husband soon
to be. You have a chance right now to show
up in a way that you're gonna admire.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yourself if you do it the right way.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Later you're gonna admire yourself for acting with grace and
acting with dignity understanding that this is okay, that he's
gonna go, and you know he needs to be by himself.
That's great because you're gonna be by yourself too, and
that's also great. And use this time to separate with
dignity and love so that you can maintain this really

(36:32):
healthy friendship with appropriate boundaries for you for the rest
of your lives that you guys have to deal with
each other with your children.

Speaker 5 (36:40):
You know, amen, I agree.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
And so when you're talking about boundaries right now, this
is a great time for you to set up boundaries.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
And boundaries don't have to be about what you need.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
They have to be about what both people want, Like
he's allowed to say what he wants as well, and
you're allowed to say what you want, and then you
compromise and meet somewhere in the middle. And it's a
great pathway to divorce. Like, which is where it sounds
like you guys are headed. So like all of this
lead time. Heather didn't have any lead.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Time when her husband left her. He just sent her
a letter and like cent her divorce papers.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
A lot of divorce as or divorce men don't get
lead time, So like that's a huge gift right there.
You know what I mean to phase out of a marriage,
because once your head is there, like it's gonna follow
its suit.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (37:26):
This like three months or six months or however long
you stay together until the marriage is over.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
But what did you mean when you reference boundaries in
your letter?

Speaker 4 (37:35):
I think it's hard. We live in a very small
house and we are taking care of a very young child,
so there is a lot of being together overlap our
social networks. We're pretty codependent, so we have a lot
of Like my best friend is the wife of his
best friends, so they're still overlapping events. But and I

(37:56):
think honestly, just hearing everything you just said is amazing
because it feels good now that we've sort of let
each other go. But it's also been my whole adult
life and all of these changes, and it just I mean,
my mom overheard me talking to him on the phone
yesterday coordinating things for the baby, and she was like,

(38:16):
you guys are so nice to each other, and I
was like, yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
I don't think it's.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
Good for me to be mean or to make anyone
wrong or right. So I want to have healthy boundaries.
But sometimes there are voices that are sometimes like you
deserve blah blah blah, you should be telling him blah
blah blah. You should be you know, like put your
foot down with blah blah blah, And it's like not always.

Speaker 5 (38:38):
Helpful with no, you don't want you're not trying to
like get anything out of him. You have to treat
him with the same grace and respect that you want.
You guys have the perfect scenario, like you are both
like married, so when you're eighteen, you know you're a baby.
Like I think that sometimes we think we're supposed to
have heartbreak in order to justify the love or make
the love this great love afair. The heartbreak has to

(38:59):
be equal to it. And then this situation, I feel
like you can transition out with love and respect and
a plan and like not feel betrayal or heartbroke and
just be like, I'm so glad I had you for
this tumultuous time and to create this baby. And now
I want to support you. Why you discover who you
are and I'm going to discover who I am and
I'm going to become financially independent. And then as soon

(39:20):
as I am financially independent and have my own identity
and self actualization, maybe you'll fall back in love with
him when your child's fifteen, maybe when he's ten. You
know it's but you need to be financially independent and
emotionally independent and you have the capabilities to do it.
Just because he defined you from eighteen on doesn't mean
he has any bearing on who you might be for

(39:41):
the next fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, and what your example with your friendship?

Speaker 2 (39:45):
You know, the two best friends you guys both have
that are married, Like, that's a great place to start
to be, Like, Okay, hey, listen, I know I'm best friend,
Like I don't want that to change, like I would
love in an ideal world, like paint the picture of
how you would like your relationship to proceed past this point.
I mean during the time that you're living together. Of course,
you know whatever you need. You don't want to be

(40:05):
disrespected or devalued in any way. But other than that,
that's a great way to just set up some boundaries.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
I mean, what boundaries do you want. Let's talk about
a couple.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
I'm mainly concerned, like I feel like very I've been
reading my Let It Go. Thank you, Chelsea. It's been
super helpful, and I have been finding my spirituality again
because for a long timehether, I'm sure you can relate
to this, it was just like no religion, no spirituality,
like get away from you with your dogma. But I
feel like this has broken me open to a place

(40:38):
where I can be open to other versions of spirituality
that work for me. And I have essentially felt a
lot of ownership over this man because of our relationship,
and I've invested in his career and everything, and so
I'm afraid that those attachments are going to get really

(40:58):
mad when I see him dating other women and when
I have to come face to face with him having
a relationship with somebody else, having no control over who
he dates. And I mean, what if.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
Now he's a doctor, he's an MD. You support him
through school. Now he's going to take his new girlfriend,
who beautiful.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
Yeah, he's rich's And I'm just like my ego's mad,
Like I put in all of the work, and it's
to stay in a marriage that doesn't make me happy. No,
not going to use that excuse to stay in a
marriage that doesn't make me happy. But it's going to
be hard for me to watch somebody else do all
of that. So I'm I want to be together as
much as possible for the baby. And we're considering like

(41:40):
staying in the same house for longer. And I don't
know if we should do that financially. We don't live
in a city where it's cheap to have two places.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
It's just how long are you considering staying in the
same house.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
Well, we have to until June, possibly August, and then.

Speaker 5 (41:56):
We'll keep having sex with him. That's my advice. Don't
begin your hoar phase and tell you have a separate
place to live.

Speaker 4 (42:04):
But yeah, oh no, no, I definitely won't. And we've
already said boundaries. I was like, you can know whatever
you're going to do out there, but don't bring anything
near our child, and don't bring anything in the house anyone.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Good.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
That's how that's nice because I would have even said,
you can say, let's not let's both put that on
pause until we leave the house, like I would have. Yeah,
so that's already good. Listen, you're more scared of what
your reaction might be than what it is gonna happen.
Once you see your ex soon to be X with
another person, you're gonna be over it. It's the anticipation

(42:36):
of that moment that is bigger than that moment.

Speaker 5 (42:38):
Tell that to Betty Broderick, Chelsea, tell that to Betty.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Well for for for normal fucking people. Okay, because I wanted.

Speaker 5 (42:46):
To drive a car over Billy when I got on
his phone, So it triggers everyone generally. But he happens
to be more evolved.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
But I'm saying this with this head start that they have,
they've already agreed to go. They're separate ways. It's not
like you're finding him with some woman in the middle
of a marriage. This is a much different scenario, right.
This is you coming into your own. This is like
the age of your enlightenment. You know, keep reading books
like Letting Go, keep investing in your spirituality and your steadiness,

(43:20):
because those are going to be the tools that you
need when you feel like you're going to fly off
the handle or get jealous, or react to something in
a way that you're going to regret. All of that
is in spirituality, right. They give you all this information
about how to control yourself, not in a religious way,
not in a way that they're indoctrinating you, in a
way that you're a more healthy human balance being right, Yeah,

(43:42):
where you know your self worth, You have a connection
with yourself, You have a relationship with yourself. And I
think that you're anticipating all these things and the fact
that you're talking about it and being proactive about it.
I think you're going to be just fine. This is
going to be a huge growth opportunity for you and
your world is about to begin in a whole new way.
Oh why did you leave a church?

Speaker 1 (44:03):
What happened? You didn't like that religion?

Speaker 4 (44:06):
It was incorrect, it was not true. No, I converted
as a teenager and then I went to BUYU and
right after marrying my husband, I transferred to schools, and
at BUYU they force you to, like stud you have
to take religion classes every semester. And it was two

(44:28):
weeks into my first semester that I was like, I'm sorry,
what do I believe? Because I don't think that's right.
And I've just always I was raised by people who
are like southern California spiritualists, and I was not raised
in this church. And then I had some really close
friends at BUYU who sort of came out and were saying, like,
they're just gonna live celibate and they were going to

(44:49):
stay in the church and they didn't want their sexuality
to come between them and God. And I just saw,
I mean, they have every right to do whatever they want,
but like seeing somebody sacrifice their happiness, I just oh,
I can't. I can't just like be a cafeteria Mormon.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
I have to leave.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
It's not gonna I get it.

Speaker 5 (45:05):
I get it totally so and that alone takes so
much strength, and like you already know that you have
like the hood spots to like, yeah, that's it's through this,
you know, and so it's in you. I mean not
to make it about me, but I married a man
with money, and I thought I got in the golden ticket.
I helped him support whatever, and that you kind of
feel like you pay your dues and then you get

(45:25):
to sit pretty for the rest of your life and
there's no such thing. It feels different, it spends different,
like earn it yourself, find out what you want to do,
and not live on a stipend or a doll from anybody,
you know, because it doesn't matter. The second I decided
that it was me, I wasn't going to find some
night to fix it. I was so much happier, and

(45:46):
I was like forty and fat and like all the
things you know, and it just you don't know what
you can do until you're forced to do it. So
let it motivate you, you know, instead of being angry that
he has it all and you gave it to him,
get it for yourself.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Listen, and there's a bigger purpose that you can't see, right,
there is a bigger purpose. Yes, you helped him, and
you helped his career and you helped him get settled.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Great, that's great, that's good karma.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
You wiped somebody come into their own and now he's
gonna be he can help you with your kid for
the rest of your life.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
He's going to be responsible like that.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
That isn't something to say, Oh I can't believe it
or be angry about.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
That's good vibes.

Speaker 5 (46:26):
That's the father of your baby.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
As long as you don't hold it over his head,
it's good vibes.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
And to get biblical about it, like, leave tomorrow's problems
for tomorrow. We'll only worry about what we need today.
I'm bringing it twelve years of question school.

Speaker 5 (46:41):
I mean that that makes.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Roota or not. I feel like all religions should be represented.

Speaker 5 (46:48):
We need a she I'm sitzeeing here.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Is there a sheep in the house? Okay, so Meg,
I have a question for you.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
What do you do for a living?

Speaker 4 (47:00):
This is the only time in my career I've been
completely unemployed, so it's kind of bad timing there. But
I have a teaching license. I'm a public school teacher.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Oh great, so nice.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
Yes, what you always say about having kids is totally correct. Though,
now that I have one of my own, I don't
have the bandwidth to go back into America's public school system,
especially in the schools where I was working. I mean
Chicago Public schools and in Aurora, Colorado, Like I've been
working in places that I haven't worked in easy schools,

(47:31):
and it was really rewarding and I learned a lot
and I failed a lot. But I'm looking now to
pivot to use what I've learned in a way that's
not classroom teaching, just because when you have young kids
of your own, absorbing thirty kids, everything every day is
just a.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Lot, right, So are you thinking about tutoring or something
like that.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
Yeah, so I am looking at a master's program where
I can become a dyslexia therapist, or my real reach
would be a clinical psychology masters and eventual PhD, because
I would love to do counseling, Like that's the best
part of teaching, is doing the emotional work.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
When we get off Google.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
There was an article on the Sunday New York Times
about psychoanalysis and the optick and the people who are
training to be psychoanalysts, and it was about Freud, but
it talks about like the offshoots and all these people.
Now it's a real rising field all psychology. So yeah,
so that sounds good. Okay, well you're all set listen,
You're fucking beautiful.

Speaker 5 (48:30):
You're not the only fans I suggest the only fans I.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Suggested to you, Heather, I suggested it for you. I'll
do it.

Speaker 5 (48:41):
Sure, let's see how many subscribers.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
But Meg, for sure, Meg, you're gonna be This is
going to be a great life for you.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
I'm almost jealous.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
Same same.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
Thanks perspective.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Do you feel like you got any advice?

Speaker 4 (48:58):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (48:59):
I do.

Speaker 4 (49:00):
I do want to ask Color something. So he's currently
like he doesn't want to be a bad guy, and
he's very much like, well, you'll stay legally married to
me as long as you want. You can stay on
my health insurance. We can split the money. And that's
I think, very generous. While I'm getting on my speech,
but I really don't want to do that thing, like
that golden ticket thing that you're talking about, So like,

(49:22):
just listen.

Speaker 5 (49:23):
That was a lot of bullshit what I was just saying.
If they're willing to pay, take the money, but take
the money, but don't bank on the money. Take the
money like it's a scholarship or it's invested. It's seed
money to become the person you want to.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
Be, independent, transitional money.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
It's a great way to think about it. Because you're
after a while. You're not gonna want his money anyway.
You're gonna want your own independence, but you're.

Speaker 5 (49:47):
Gonna want money. If he's taking his new girlfriend and
living in a mansion on a doctor's thing and you're
doing the school thing, it's gonna it's gonna great for
the rest of your life. So fight hard now with
a good attorney, without being angry, but just knowing that
you can be nice to the of your life when
he's got the MD salary and you're you know, working
with the kids reading program. Just try to balance out

(50:07):
and make sure you just preserve your peace at all costs.
Don't bet Rebroaderick because that's pretty much what I go
to on everything, and that didn't work out well for her.
So don't drive your suburban through his front door when
he's with his new girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
So that's how about just don't drive a suburban because
the world is melted.

Speaker 5 (50:25):
Listen, she has a backgrounded Mormonism. A suburban is at
the top of her list.

Speaker 4 (50:32):
But now I only have to have one child, So
there there you go.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
You're saving the planet. Congratulations, Thank you for that. Yes,
thank you, Megan, was nice to speak with you. Thanks
for calling in.

Speaker 4 (50:43):
Thank you so much. You guys are amazing.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Take care, Thank you bye.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
She and I had just talked on the phone before,
not on a zoom call, and so that was a
whole fun surprise to find out she's just fully gorgeous.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Like Hollywood ready, Oh my god. I was looking at
her like, oh oh you're beautiful.

Speaker 5 (51:04):
I'd like to hire you.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Yes, you guys, this podcast is about feelings, okay, not looks.
So let's sorry, take it downny.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
Beauty is currency.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
So we'll take a quick break and we'll be right
back to close out.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
And we're back.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Well, okay, so we can quickly get Alisa laid. Her
question is get her laid? She needs to get laid.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
She's newly divorced, so.

Speaker 5 (51:36):
No experience in this. I'll try, she says.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Dear Chelsea, my sex drive is high, my trust in people.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Wait one second, Heather, you've had sex since your divorce?

Speaker 5 (51:46):
Right, Yes, yes, I'm going to launch full And I
was just saying, like, it's not my forte getting laid,
but I'll work on it.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Got it.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Well, I'll just kind of skim over this and she's
going to join us here. She's intimidated by on line dating,
she doesn't really know the etiquette. She does want to
go out there and start having like one night stands
or hooking up with guys, but she's not totally sure
how to go about it. So she says, how do
I have casual sex when I can't make the first move? Alisa?

Speaker 4 (52:15):
Hi?

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Lisa?

Speaker 5 (52:17):
Hi, Lisa, I like your style first casual sex girl,
Let's talk about it.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Heather Gay is our special guest today.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
So that's Heather. This is Catherine, I'm me Hi, Hi,
How are you good?

Speaker 5 (52:32):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
So you're looking to get some action, First of all,
you should use dating sites because that's the quickest way
to make that happen. Unless you're just gonna go walk
down the street to the bar and pick up a guy.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
But if you're embarrassed about making a first move, is
that what it is?

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Are you scared?

Speaker 2 (52:47):
I got a little shy around boys too sometimes if
I like them, Yeah, making the first move.

Speaker 6 (52:52):
Like I was, I socialized a lot when I was younger,
but these days, I'm kind of more of an introvert
and a homebody.

Speaker 5 (52:59):
So, well, you're not going to get laid at home.
You got to get out, I know, I.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Know, so actually you'll get laid at home, but.

Speaker 6 (53:07):
Eventually, Yeah. So I've joined some hiking groups and oh
good of things that I enjoyed doing. And I'm new
to this province in Canada too, so I've been like
going to my favorite bar, sitting at the bar, reading
a book, getting a drink.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yes, I like that. That's hot. Reading a book at
the bar and the city behavior.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (53:34):
I just find with the social sites, you know, you
have to sift through like so much, and then I
don't know what words to use and how to communicate
with people on these dating sites, and then I'm very
much like I like to get a vibe. So I
don't know, I just find them difficult.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Well, there are certain apps that you can use if
you are more interested in just hooking up.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Field is one.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
There's a few other ones that are specifically for like
they're more like hookupy. But also I think people are
using Bumble, Like I have a couple of friends who
are in an open marriage and they're like, we use bumble,
So you know.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
I think you should.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
I think you should get on sites, get on a couple,
you know, like bumble Hinge is like reputable, right, and
that's the other there's another new one. Not Tinder is
like a little bits old.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
That's too much.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
Yeah, plenty of fish. There's plenty of fish still poppiners.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
That that's from that's from the seventies. Also, howther I
don't Yeah.

Speaker 6 (54:28):
I don't. I definitely don't want to discount that idea.
I also live in a small town, so I've just
the pool is pretty small.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, you need to be online.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
It's the best way to get the most options as
quickly as possible.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Right, It's the most efficient way to start dating or
start fooling.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Around with somebody. Like whatever it is you're after, that's
the way to do it. I love that you're going
to a bar reading a book by yourself at the bar.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Fucking awesome. Keep doing that.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Join your groups, join another group, like instead of a
hiking group. You know, Canadians love to do what else
do they like?

Speaker 1 (54:59):
They like to fi? I should stay away from.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
That and drink beer.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
See I'm imagining her like going down to the docks
and having like a hot fisherman with like big muscle.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Muscle are no hot fishermen and dies, but go ahead, Lisa.

Speaker 5 (55:16):
Yeah, the ragged guys for sure, the oil riggers.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
I don't know what you think you're saying when you
say you don't know what words to use.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Like you mean like the trendy language that's going around,
or abbreviations and stuff like that, Like, what do you
mean by that?

Speaker 6 (55:29):
Well, I was chatting with this guy online on bumble
years ago and he messaged me, and then I wasn't
the next person to message him, Like the etiquette, you know,
it's like I didn't message him back, so then you
just never.

Speaker 5 (55:41):
Messaged me again.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Oh well, don't worry. That's going to happen all the
time online that there is no etiquette. You know, it's
your etiquette is whatever you decide it's going to be.
But you should practice just being forward with people, like,
you know, do you want to have a drink?

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Do you want to meet for a drink?

Speaker 2 (55:55):
You should definitely meet them for a drink before you
invite anyone to your house.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Please don't do that.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Or meet for you know, whatever you're into. I mean,
I'm into drinks, so that's what I'm going to meet for.
But you know, listen, you're online. Who gives a shit
you don't care if you ever see these fucking people again.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
It's the perfect way to be a little bit.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
More daring, and then with that will come you being
more daring in real life, you know.

Speaker 5 (56:19):
Okay, yeah, you hide behind the screen a little bit.
And also, might I suggest they've made a song into
Adam Levine's sexteen and he's really good at it, like
little things to say like you're so hot, amazing, like
he knows how to sex amazing.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah, just say that to anything, amazing.

Speaker 5 (56:34):
Just whatever Adam Levine said when he was sexty people
on the side. I think that's a great playbook to
pull from, honestly.

Speaker 6 (56:41):
Okay, thank you. I also was like, I've been tuning
in and bought a really good vibrator, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
That's also good. What do you need today for?

Speaker 2 (56:52):
I know you well know that's good to get everything
ready for your days, keep it moving, and.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
It helps to have that practice.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
I do think, you know, you get out of practice
with that stuff, even for yourself.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Yeah, maybe I'm revealing too much. I don't I don't
know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Because a vibrator, I mean, how do you have to
practice with a vibrator.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
It's just just.

Speaker 5 (57:12):
Like small talk with your vibrator.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Put it where it's supposed to go, and.

Speaker 5 (57:17):
Then it it's just a new tool.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Are vibrator? Are you like?

Speaker 3 (57:25):
I mean, just like the frequency when you get out
of practice, it's like you don't care about it anymore.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
But oh right, okay, and that's sound. Yeah, yes, I.

Speaker 6 (57:34):
Feel like if I have a vibe like I don't
you know, I'm not like super attached or craving having
this like strong craving And.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah that's smart. I like that angle. That's true.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
That way, you're not like, yeah, you just masturbate before
every date. Also, so you don't have to be super
super duper horny unless you need to be, and then
you can whip that up again.

Speaker 5 (57:54):
Anyway, sometimes you need the horny to motivate you to
be a little bit more forward. You know, you got
to balance it. You want it to razor's edge.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
Really, see, how do I know you'd have an advice?

Speaker 1 (58:05):
Tous edge really is what it is.

Speaker 5 (58:08):
Yeah, give her just a little, but not too much. Amore?

Speaker 3 (58:14):
All right, Alisa, tell us when you get laid Okay, yes.

Speaker 5 (58:22):
I'll tell you how it goes.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Okay, bye bye, Well you guys, solved all of her
problems so fast.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
That was great.

Speaker 5 (58:34):
I just want to have like an advice show. This
is like, it's motivating me. All the tips and tricks.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Yeah, I know that we're just pulling out of our asses.
People are very trustworthy. All right, Well we are wrapping
things up. Yeah, I mean that was an hour. What
a fun hour, Heather, that.

Speaker 5 (58:50):
Was a fun hour. You guys, I had the best time.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Awesome.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Well, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
And guys, yeah, we'll talk so okay, take care of that.

Speaker 5 (58:58):
I loved it. Thanks guys, appreciate bye, take care bye.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
And her book is called Bad Mormon, which you guys
can pick up wherever you like to buy your books,
hopefully at a local bookstore.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
Yes, and I will have a link in the show
notes as well. I actually all of our links to
our books that I put in the show notes go
to bookshop dot org, which also donates. It's like an
alternative to Amazon, but they donate to local bookshops.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Oh yeah, so it gets to like order online. I
love that. Yeah. Tabulous support books everybody. Okay, we love books.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
And I have just announced new stand updates for my
Little Big Bitch tour. Guys, I announced twenty five new cities.
These are probably a lot of the cities people have
been mentioning in the comments. I start out in East Hampton.
I go to New York, d C, Duram, North Carolina, LA, Phoenix, Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Chicago, Madison, Portland,

(59:50):
to name just some. I will be performing at the
Kennedy Center everybody that's in DC October sixth. I'm super
psyched to be performing there. Also exciting announcement for this week.
I just added second shows in New York, DC.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Seattle, and San Francisco.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
So today's pre sale still so that code is little,
and then general on sale starts tomorrow. Okay, yes, and
I'll see everybody this weekend. I'll be in Bangor, Maine, Wallingford, Connecticut, and.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Manicchello, New York. There are more.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I have tour dates coming up for the next three months,
and then more dates coming up in the fall.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
So those have all been announced. They're on my Instagram
page or you can go to Chelsea Hamma dot com.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and
be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
com