December 7, 2023 • 60 mins
Psychotherapist Esther Perel joins Chelsea to talk about the upsides and downsides of conflict, how to improve your relationships, and why you and your partner keep having the same argument over and over. Then: A wife wonders if her less-than-thrilling marriage is truly over. A sister struggles with her sense of obligation when her roommates' marriage turns polyamorous. And a mom’s sexual assault as a teenager has her concerned for her own daughter’s future.
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Find Esther’s course Turning Conflict Into Connection here.
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Books mentioned on today’s episode:
Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow
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Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at DearChelseaPodcast@gmail.com
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Executive Producer Catherine Law
Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert
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The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees. This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there, Catherine, Oh, Hey, Chelsea, Hey, Hey, hey jam
packed a couple of days. I'm in New York City
today yet again.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Yes, I have a jew event that I have to
go to today. What did I do yesterday?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I had.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I had a lot of exciting things happen, a lot
of exciting things. I landed in New York yesterday and
I saw about sixteen different friends and one fell swoop.
I saw so many people in one day that I
didn't even get into my hotel room until ten o'clock
at night for the first time.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And then I left again. Yeah, and I went on
a date that was cute.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Oh and then oh, I went to my knee surgeon
so he could give me the thumbs up for skiing.
Because I'm heading to Whistler soon and I'm doing all
my Canadian dates there, So if you're Canadian, make sure
you look go to Chelseahandler dot com because I'm coming
to a city near you over winter. I have all
my Canadian dates set up from January to March, so
(00:51):
I'm very excited about that. And I just announced Australia too.
I'm coming to Australia, you guys in July. So I
think I have about five or six shows there anyway.
But I have this little like thing on my knee
for my surgery that like, it's not the swelling isn't
going down on one of the incision sites, so it
looks almost like a wart. So I went into my
doctor this morning and I was like, you need to
fucking cut this off, Like what is this? And he's like, oh,
(01:14):
that looks like fluid. So I went down to have
them drain in. They're like, that's not fluid, it's like
scar tissue. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
you have to remove my leg full amputation. I can't
have this. I'm single, like I'm trying to hook up. Yeah,
I can't have a fucking ward on my knee. No,
So I'm probably gonna have to sue him. I'm not
in any lawsuits right now, so I don't see why
I shouldn't start one.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I mean, you have to have one going at all times, right.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, my father was very litigious and I picked up
a lot of that, and the last lawsuit I had
was I won. That was very satisfying, encouraging. I've been
in two lawsuits. One was short, little like short Claims
Court or whatever, Small Claims court, short claims, small Claims Court.
I sued them once for an outfit they ruined during
dry cleaning, and I won like one hundred and forty bucks.
I was like twenty two, So I felt very vindicated
(01:58):
at that point in my life. And this is my
second lawsuit and I won that too, and I won
a lot more than one hundred and forty dollars.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Well that's fantastic. I mean personally, I wouldn't continue to
roll the dice if I had like a winning streak
or two for two, I.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Know I should probably, Well, the three is a really
lucky number. That's where I really cash out. Have you
ever read the book?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Tomorrow? Tomorrow Tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
It's like literally on my nightstand right now. It almost
started it this weekend, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I've been so many people have told me to
read this book, and I'm reading it and everyone keeps saying, oh,
I go, isn't it about gaming? And they're like, it
is about gaming, but it's not about gaming. Yeah, but
it's all about gaming. The whole book is about gaming.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
See.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I love that, though, So I'm waiting for the story
that's not about gaming to happen. But I mean, I'm
still reading about gaming and it's a slow read for me.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh, you know what everybody has to.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Watch if they haven't watched American Symphony, they have to
watch American Symphony.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
But that is fucking amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And it's a documentary on John Fatiste and his wife
and she wrote that book Between Two Kingdoms.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Have you read that book, Catherine?
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, that's a great book too.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
It's all about her journey of like being sick and
she was diagnosed with leukemia when she's like twenty two,
and her whole life has just basically been one transplant
after another or after another after another.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But it's pretty it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, you know what, Chelsea, I thought of you when
I read this book. I just finished The Island of
the Sea Women. It came out a few years ago.
Have you read this?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
No? I haven't. What is that?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
It is fascinating. It's about this matriarchal society in South
Korea and these women who dive to go get seafood,
various different seafoods. And because they're the ones who dive,
they're the ones with the money and the men stay
home with the kids. But it is a fascinating history
of South Korea and about these women, and some of
them are even still alive and continue to dive to
(03:38):
this day in modern times. It's fantastic. I will bring
you my copy next week if you want to read it.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's okay, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would love that you
would like it. I'd like any society that's all women.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
It's like historical fiction, so it gets very very dramatic.
A lot of shit happens.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I like historical fiction too. I didn't used to, but
I've started to warm up to it.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I love history.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Into one of those older people that just loves history.
I can't get enough of it. The other day, I
was looking up you know, like, you know how Pearl
Harbor kind of was the reason that America ended up
getting into World War two, but they were having their
own war, the Pacific War in Japan, but Japan had
allied with Italy and Germany. Because I was like, my
friend's like, why was Japan involved in World War Two?
(04:20):
And I'm like, I feel like I know the answer
to this, but I don't, And so I had to
do a deep dive and so I do love it.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I do love it. It's something that actually I can
really focus on as history.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I feel like history is basically just like really good
gossip about world events. You know, It's stuff that we
continue to talk about, and it's juicy and it's interesting
and kind.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Sure, I'm gonna start looking at history as gossip now. Yeah,
I was hoping that was my one reprieve from gossip
because that seems to take up a lot of my time.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Also, especially when you see sixteen friends in one day.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
People fucking love gossiping, right.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Okay, So who do we have on deck today? What's
our story?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Actually, today we're talking with Esther Perell and she is
on the line.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, good morning, Esther. How are you?
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Helloilu, I'm friend, how are you?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Oh, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you this morning.
This is Catherine, she's our producer.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
There, so exciting. Okay, So, well, everybody knows you. You're
a very famous psychotherapist who deals with couples, couples therapy,
sex lives, sex between couples, breakdowns between couples, and you
are the author of Mating in Captivity, which was a huge,
huge success, which a lot of people who are listening
to this podcast have read, as well as the State
of Affairs. So I know that you are launching a
(05:39):
course on conflict, which is called Turning Conflict into Connection.
So let's discuss that conflict and connection.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Which one are you better at.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I'm really good at conflict. I'm very good at conflict.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Actually, it's very funny you mentioned that because I have
had trouble making connection in the past few months of
my life. I thought this would be the time for
me to be like blossoming and meeting someone. So there
hasn't been a ton of conflict, but there also hasn't
been a ton of connection.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
What kind of conflict person are you? What's your style style?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Well, I've been in therapy, so I've nipped my you know,
my shortcomings in the buds, so to speak. I'm not
as crazy or scary, I should say, as I used
to be.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'm much more, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
But I didn't do any tame tame, and I understand
how to speak about things, and I understand that defensiveness
is not really a winning argument, you know. But yes,
I've experienced conflicts in my relationships as everybody has. And
I feel like I've gotten much better at resolving conflict.
But you need two participants that are very good at
resolving conflict, is what I've learned.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
I think the first thing you said that I want
to highlight is that conflict is intrinsic to relationships. It's
not that this is part and parcel of it. We disagree,
we argue, we fight, and sometimes conflict is actually very
helpful to be dressed wrong, to create a different level
of engagement, to feel more emboldened, to ask for what
(07:06):
one wants. I mean, there's a lot of good juice
in conflict, but then there is also a whole other
way that people sometimes get trapped into their arguments and
they're bickering, and there's a range. Right, conflict is a
word that's like an umbrella underneath it, there are multiple
tentacles of how we fight. We disagree, we argue, we bicker,
(07:31):
we do slow you know, low intensity warfare or high
intensity warfare. But generally what people want is how do
we fight better? But this doesn't mean resolve things, but
it's how do we not devolve? How do we not
fall prey to the traps and the defeating strategies that
(07:52):
we often have when we fight, Like how do we
not bring up everything in the relationship all at once
when we are arguing about one thing. How do we
not go totalistic and it becomes you always and you never?
How do we, you know, take responsibility and not feel
like if I give in an inch, I lost my
whole sense of pride and my whole identity. How do
(08:14):
we decide what's wise not to say even if we
are right that there's a difference between being right and
being wise. It's all of that. And in these days
especially where we often have become quite conflict avoidant, it's
like I don't want to talk to you, I don't
want I have not we disagree, therefore you're out of
my life kind of thing. We really could use sharpening
(08:37):
our social skills for how to be together to deal
with fighting is not about fighting, it's about actually how
to relate and how to connect.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Obviously, the biggest roadblock for relationships is communication, right, I
mean that's pretty much all roads lead to that.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Would you agree with that or what do you think?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
I think that communication is a word that we often
use to say, how do I tell you what I
need think feel. How do I get through to you?
How I get you to acquiesce with me? How do
I get you to understand me, to validate me, to
relate to me. It's okay. It's the buzzwords under which
(09:19):
a lot is subsumed, which is fine. I prefer to
think about relating. You know, I asked a question recently
that became very It's the favorite of mine for the
last two weeks. You know, you get a question and
you tried out in many spaces. Did you grow up
playing freely on the street? I did, Yes, an enormous
(09:39):
amount of people no longer do that. And what you
got when you played freely on the street, and I
asked this in four different countries where I've been touring,
is that you had unscripted, unmonitored, unchoreographed social interaction. You
practiced social negotiation. You played, you fought, you made rules,
you broke rules, you competed, you were jealous, you made friends.
(10:03):
This whole thing allowed you to learn how to relate
and to develop social skills. When we say we don't communicate,
it's not true. We communicate all the time. We communicate
with silence, we communicate with lift, eyebrows. We communicate with smirks,
We communicate with moving our head away. We communicate by
(10:26):
arguing back. We communicate. We're just not communicating in a
way that connects us. So when people say we don't communicate,
what they're saying is we're not connecting. We're fighting. We
are a part. We are experiencing each other as enemies.
We are saying things as if we don't care about
(10:47):
the person that we're saying it to, when in fact
it's the person that we need for their life. We
communicate non stop, but some of our communication creates productive interactions,
and some of our commun udication is destructive or defeating
or disrupting.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So in the course you talk about that, you talk
about constructive versus destructive conflict. So can you give us
an example.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Of the two?
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Which one shall? I start with the negative, because we
are very, very creative in our negative ways of how
we fight. I mean, here are sure bets to torpedo
your relationship, to undermine it. Right, So we just went
through one. I'll just name it. It's called kitchen sinking.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
We're arguing about whatever you didn't water the plants or
I asked you to do something and you didn't do it,
or I forgot one more time, you know whatever. But
in the course of this argument, we are putting in
ten years of a relationship, and we put pile up
all the dirty dishes, and in fact, you can't wash
a single dish when you've got them all piled up
(11:56):
on top of each other. Or I disqualify everything you say.
You can give me ten things, and all these things
I actually have no problem with, but I'll argue with
the one thing that I have that I can disagree
with you on, you know, like seriously, that becomes really
of biblical proportion, you know, basically looking for evidence that
(12:19):
reinforces my belief. I fundamentally think you don't care about me,
and everything that I bring up are proofs that I
am right, even if it's the thing I want to
feel the least. I mean, the last thing I want
to believe is that you don't care about me. But
I'm going to prove you that you don't care about me,
and it's so twisted. I'm also going to, of course
(12:40):
think that when I was late, it's because there was traffic,
you know, but when you are late, it's because you
are really not attentive and not responsible. Mine is circumstantial,
yours is characterological. Those are some of the you know,
the classic negatives we escalate. I say something, you bring
(13:01):
up something else that is bigger than mine, and then
I say, yeah, you really want to talk about it.
Let me remind you this one, you know. And in
the end we've both completely polarized and lonely in our corners,
and you know, where's the relationship? But it's productive. It's
I'm really pissed, you know, and I want to tell
you why, and you tell it, and you don't, and
(13:21):
you don't go cursing the person, and you don't go
you always, you never, you know, and you go to
totalistic in your categorical thinking. You stick to the point
you put. You express your anger, you're discontent, your disbelief,
you're even you know, your fury doesn't matter, it's okay.
And then you say what you have to say, and
(13:43):
now you shut up and you listen for a minute,
and hopefully on the other side there's someone who either says,
I get it while you're so pissed, or it's really
hard for me to hear how pissed you are, because
it was really not my intention. That's absolutely not what
I thought about this, or you have a point, this
is true. A person earlier today says to me and
(14:06):
he says, you know, I really want to I want
us to be close. I want us to do things.
I want us to go out, I want to say,
And then she says, he says, you're not there. You're
not there. And then she says, give me an example.
That's like the killer one. Give me an example, because
the first thing you're going to do with the example
is shut it down, right. So he gives examples, and
so of course she argues with every example, and she
tries to say and basically he says, but you're there
(14:28):
for all your friends, you know, and you're just not there.
And basically I said to her, it's like, but you
agree with him, Why don't you just tell him you're right?
For some reason, I have an energy for my friends
I don't have for you. And I'm sorry, I get
it why it's upsetting to you, And honestly it's upsetting
to me too, because I actually don't understand why I
(14:48):
have zero energy to bring into our relationship. That makes
a conversation very short. Rather than arguing with every example
that he gave to prove to him that he shouldn't
feel lonely because she's really present, she's not.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
But so, then what's the next step when somebody like
admits something like that, like, you're right, I don't have
the energy for you that I have for my girlfriends,
then what And I.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Don't know why, And I completely can see why that's
upsetting to you, And you know what, it's upsetting to
me too because I don't understand it and I don't
like it, and I don't know what to do about it.
But I'm gonna take I'm gonna take it seriously. I'm sorry.
So that's the beginning, Is you acknowledge a shared reality,
(15:33):
then then what? Then you often go from the anger
to the sadness, to the longing to the yearning to the.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Loss, which is a nicer place to be to start
a conversation. Absolutely well, okay, so talk about explosives versus implosives.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So imagine explosives. Is I'm one, you know, when I
get in there, my volume goes up, you know, and
if you don't answer, my value goes my volume goes
up a little more, you know. And I'm living with
someone who the higher I go, the quieter they go.
And they think that because they're quiet at some point,
(16:11):
you know, quite people sometimes thinks if I don't say anything,
at some point, she will stop. But of course she
or whoever that person is, doesn't necessarily stop, because if
you don't answer, then I feel like I'm talking to
the wind. And then I just become more and more
vociferous because there is no container. Whereas if you just
said to me, I get it, I hear you something,
(16:35):
then I know my point has crossed the bridge and
has arrived on the other side of the river. You know.
So what you have is people who are fighters, people
who are more into flight, and sometimes you have a
dynamic where you have one fight, one flight, and it
goes like this. So there's three primary choreographies. These are
(16:58):
just ways of organizing what we see and so that
we can enter. You know, it's like, what's the theater
of this argument? How do these people? How do these
people get stuck? What do they say and what do
they do to each other? And whether are they not
saying or doing that would make it better for them
when they go into this cycle of conflict?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And do do you meet with people a lot where
you feel like this must have happened. I don't know
if this is a frequent thing where you feel like
one of the partners is just unable to do the
work or to be able to hear the other person,
and that you found the situation hopeless, or do you
feel like there's always a kernel of something you can
deliver to them to help them engage.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
I'll do my best, and sometimes I think not yet
or not today. You know, I'm thinking of an episode
in the podcast, and where should we begin? Where they
have vicious fights, so they both explode. When she asks
him to do something, he instantly hears his dad giving
him orders. When he doesn't do what she asks, she
(18:04):
instantly experiences once again, I'm going to be all alone.
I took care of everybody in my family growing up,
and this puts me right back there again. It's all
on me. And so the first thing you do that
you hope people can transition with you is instead of
what is it that you're fighting about like the cat
litter in their case, it's what is it that you're
(18:26):
fighting for, which in her case is I'm fighting not
to be all alone? In his case, is I'm fighting
not to be dismissed by my father. I was going
to put an adjective, but I want. And what I
ended up doing with them, which was really, you know,
you try anything you can when you've got this crescendo going.
(18:46):
I just said, at one point, can I just ask
you something? Would you please both life flat on the
floor and continue the argument. Now, there's something about when
we fight, we like we are mammals. We are upright,
our shoulders go up, our neck goes in, our clothes
come out, you know. But if you lie flat on
the floor, it's kind of hard to continue. So you
(19:07):
go into the body. You try through the instrument of
the body to say, you know, let's let's see if
I can get you unglued from these inevitable corners where
you find yourself. On occasion, somebody says I'm not lying down,
or this is ridiculous, or what's that going to do?
(19:28):
Or why shall I? Or why me? You know why
you keep pointing your finger at me? And then you
come back the next time and you say, this is
not about pointing a finger at you, because but you
don't want to live like this, you wouldn't be here.
Of course, I understand coupos therapy is sometimes a drop
off center, right, you bring your partner to get fixed,
(19:48):
and you say and you say, I'm an expert and
I can help you if.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You need Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's like I've been a therapy, let me show you
the way exactly. It never works either. Okay, we're going
to take a quick break and then we're going to
come back and take some callers.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
And we're back.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I was just thinking about the pressure it must. I mean,
obviously this is your chosen career and you're very successful
at it, but the pressure that you must feel with
couples coming in because I know I've been a couples
therapy and I was like, all right, it's on you.
If you can save this relationship, great, but this is
your responsibility now. I mean, the pressure you must feel
(20:31):
must be immense.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
So the first thing I want to tell you, Chelsea
is I've met you before, like I know this entrance
point and my typical The first thought that comes to
mind is I cannot want this more than you need
to want it yourself, because it's not my relationship. I
cannot take this song where I care more about what's
going to happen to the two of you than you.
(20:55):
So I care a ton, but I am disempowered. If
I care more than the person whose own relationship is
at stake, I feel a tremendousness of responsibility. I also
think that often people come past do date, and you know,
it depends what good will is left, how much people
(21:16):
really want this to change. If they just want to
be right, then there's a good chance that they will
be right and alone right.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
And from there let's transition into colors.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Our first question is not.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Really about conflict, but Crystal is our email center today.
Dear Chelsea. When I was thirty seven, I was diagnosed
with breast cancer and had to go through it, all
of it all at once, freezing my eggs, double mistectomy,
and chemo. Two years later and I'm on the other
side of it, cancer free and finally feeling ready to
date and have sex again. Here's the thing. I had
(21:51):
reconstructive surgery shortly after I was diagnosed. My new boobs
look perfectly fine. They aren't in ten and two positions
or anything, but they're pretty hard and they are spots.
I can feel the crinkle of the implants. When I
asked my surgeon if they were ever going to feel
any better, She explained, They're never going to fully feel
like real boobs since my milk ducks and fat toooshore
are gone, it's just the bags in there. It was
(22:12):
upsetting to wrap my heat around, but it is what
it is. I guess I should be thankful that I
still have my nipples. Here are my questions now that
I'm about to start dating again. Should I tell a
guy about my boobs if I want to have sex
with him? Do I not say anything? Because it's a heavy,
awkward conversation and frankly a turn off. If I don't
say anything, I'm worried I'll be super self conscious during
(22:32):
sex and be caught up studying his reaction. Also, how
do I mentally prepare myself in case some guy says
something insensitive or has a less than desirable reaction? How
do I reframe this very deep insecurity for myself? Thanks
for all you do, Crystal.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, Esther, why don't you go first? Since you're the professional,
So I'll just tell you what came up for me
as I'm listening to you, Crystal, is that you are
a thirty six near old woman who has just gone
through a huge experience, and you have gone through something
that most of us do not know, and you're coming
(23:10):
out on the other side, and you want to re
engage with life, and you want to reconnect with the
erotic force inside of you, and that is absolutely beautiful.
And you are a woman with a whole body and
all kinds of other organs, and your biggest organ is
your skin, and you're focusing on one thing, your boobs.
(23:33):
If you had her piece, it would be a different story.
It would affect the other person. In this case, this
is yours.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
And as you get to know the person you're dating,
at some point you'd start to talk about what have
been some important experiences in your life, and you'll probably
end up talking about, I had cancer very young, and
this is what happened to me, and part of that
you know, and how do you feel today? Well, one
thing that I have is this, but I am alive
(23:59):
and I am healthy, and all of that proceeds, and
that's where you will draw your sense of strength and
your resilience and your confidence rather than just focusing on
the insecurity may not necessarily be a turn off. You
don't know if you mind somebody, for whom you know
your breast are their fati ish short while, but bring
(24:20):
the rest of who you are to the experience, and
at some point when you feel more comfortable, when you
feel a little more trusting, when you've heard a little
bit of the reactions about other things, then you just say
and then you ask how does that information land on
you? You know, lead it, don't be too scared. And most
of the time the people won't know what to say.
(24:42):
So if you hold the conversation and you lead it
with confidence, you will feel so empowered. Actually, what is
it like for you that this is a situation? Is
that even important to you? You can be a wonderful
lover regardless of what happens to your breasts. And that's
what we matters is what you end up experiencing together
(25:02):
with this person. If they end up focusing just on that,
you probably have the wrong address.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, And also I would like to say additionally, there
are so many things as a woman that I get
turned off by from men if I'm on a date
or whatever, and when you really like someone, that all
flies away. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know, every woman
has something they're insecure about. Anyway, You're just focusing on
that because that is your issue right now. But what
you know, what Esther said is so much more important
(25:29):
and valuable. You're alive, you're healthy, you're ready to mingle.
You want to have some action, Like you want to
be in love and be in a relationship. That's more
important than a couple of lumps or bumps or whatever.
You feel like, is it perfect about your breast? Every
woman has a body part that they're not happy about,
you know. Eventually you just have to get over it
and realize what your attributes are or what the best
things about you are that you love, you know, and
(25:52):
then that comes across too.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So yeah, get out there, sister.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, and I think you know, Sarah, I'm so glad
you brought up like that. Might be somebody who's like
a fetish or you know, some guys are like that's
what they love. They love fake boobs, so they're like
very into that.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Or they might be an ass man who knows, Yeah,
they might not care about boobs at all. So it's
like you're worrying about something that you're creating a worry
that you don't have to. You know, you go out
there and just and be your lovely, beautiful self. Everybody
has a little thing that they don't like, so you're
not alone in that. And the more important thing is
that you're healthy and you're able to go on dates.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
I think the concern is real, you know. I think
I understand the question, and I really appreciate you asking
the question because you're just coming out and there is
this kind of you know, who am I now? And
there is a sense that this is not the body
that you knew. But you will find yourself more at
ease inside your own skin as you did people and
hopefully you did mature people for whom what matters is
(26:50):
what is created between the two of you, not what
hangs on you.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
What would you say is the right sort of timing
to bring this up?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
You know, obviously it's not while you're like walking in
the front door making out, but you know, is it
early on? Is that after you've kind of gotten to
know the person? Is it maybe after you've even had
sex ones?
Speaker 4 (27:10):
You know, I don't think there's a rule on these things,
but I think that what you want is a broader conversation.
The conversation is, you know, it can be Have you
ever had transformative experiences. Have ever been close to death?
Have you ever felt physically vulnerable? Have you known fear?
Have you know? You know, there's other questions that are
(27:32):
broad questions, and then you bring that question to you
and you say, actually, yes, I once was diagnosed with cancer.
And so that's how it's brought in. It's not like
this is part of your CV, you know, and you
have to share this as your data. You know, this
is not data. This is stuff that grows out of
exploration and discovery of two people who get to know
(27:55):
each other. And you may find that, you know, you
have no idea what people bring, what the experiences people have.
You know, they may not have had cancer themselves, but
there's a good chance that they know somebody who died
of it or who had it or survived it, or
you know. So it's that conversation. It has to do
with trust, it has to do with context. This was
(28:18):
a good moment to say it. They don't say it
when you naked, I actually would not. Don't say it
while you're walking together and you know, in your in motion,
so that the stress can also kind of evacuate through
the through the body, and don't bring it as I
have a secret to tell you. This is not a secret,
and it's not a piece of data. You don't owe anything.
(28:40):
This is as we're getting to know each other, one
of the important things to know about me is this
experience that I had, as I have had other very
important experiences, but maybe this one has shaped me even
more than anything else. And in the course of that
experience you talk about you know, actually one of the
things that has stayed with me is that I had
to have reconstructive surgery. And you don't say is that
(29:03):
okay with you? You just sis, that's the part. It's
a piece of my life that's.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Not okay with you.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Awesome wheur next question comes from Sammy. She is thirty six.
Dear Chelsea. Last year, three days before I moved in
with my sister, her husband informed me that they now
have an open marriage and my sister is dating a
twenty two year old gal. Needless to say, I was
a little shocked and put off by the situation. Polyamory
(29:30):
in general doesn't bother me, but my sister and her
husband already don't have the strongest marriage. Bringing in this
third person has proven nothing more than the catastrophe you'd
imagine On top of that, they tend to be so
wrapped up in the relationship they completely forget they have children.
I hear several times a week from both of them,
I need to spend more time with the kids, but
this is never done. In fact, they spend more time
(29:52):
fighting about their situation than anything. Then they make up
and watch Big Love or Sister Wives and pretend they
have this perfect union. A few months later, the girl
moved into the house. She isn't working or going to school.
My sister and brother in law have added her to
their bank accounts now and their will and as an
emergency contact for kids at the school, literally leaving me
(30:14):
to be nothing but a babysitter when they want to
do things as a threatle They've basically made me the
enforcer of rules, chores, etc. Furthermore, I pay rent to
live here, and the paramour does not big surprise. I know.
I went from being the cool aunt to the mean aunt,
and all I want is for my nieces and nephews
to give me the same love and respect they give
their other aunts and uncles. I love my sister and
(30:36):
the kids, but this whole situation is nothing more than
a disaster. Waiting to blow up bigger than it already is.
I'll eventually move out of the house. I told my
sister when I moved in, i'd stay for two years
to help with the mortgage, etc. And I plan to
keep my word on that. But what can I do
in the meantime? Love and respect, Sammy.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
Hi, sam Hi, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
What a hot mess of a situation your Oh no.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Not understatement of the year.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Oh my gosh. Okay, Astair, you go first. I'm dying
to hear what you have to say about this.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
What are you doing there? Seriously? I mean, I offered
to pay for the mortgage, and I'm going to keep
my commitment. I mean, what where is your life?
Speaker 5 (31:22):
I was in a place where, you know, I was
struggling on my own, so I was happy to come
help my sister out with her family, and I had
a place to stay in a reof over my head.
But I wasn't expecting all of it.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Okay, but now things have changed, so you may have
had very good reasons for why you chose to do
this back then. This is absolutely not a judgment, but
now it's like, why what are you doing there? Why
are you doing this, Let them be, let them swim
in their own messes, and be available to the kids
(31:57):
if you want to and have a life of your own.
You're absorbing this whole drama that isn't yours and that
doesn't need a fight, that just needs simply I think
that at this moment, your life's have evolved in a
certain way and I need to retreat and kind of
(32:17):
resume my own track. What's standing in the way of
your doing.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
That currently finances, I'm working on paying some stuff back,
some loans back, So as soon as that is all
taking care of, my goal is to run as fast
as I can.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
And you're paying rent, right, So can you pay that
rent to somebody else?
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Yes, but probably not as nice of the rent that
I'm paying now. I'm still paying rent, but it's still
significantly less than my own place, for sure.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
You know. But is there somebody else? Can you rent
a room in someone else's big house?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Possibly?
Speaker 5 (32:51):
I mean I've looked. I'm on you know, Facebook, sites
with renting rooms and that kind of stuff, and I've
been reaching out and inquire. But a lot of it
is I have a dog and a cat, and a
lot of people don't allow pats. So that's kind of
a little bit of a wall too. So I'm I'm
actively working on it, and I have you know, friends
that are looking and helping me as well.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
But I think that that's the primary You know, this
is not about what do you tell your sister, what
do you tell the other woman? What you tell you know,
it's really challenging when you are in the midst of
another family and you see things that hurt other people
and therefore hurt you. So you watch the little Smurfs
(33:33):
and you say, I feel for them. Nobody's attending to them.
I have to be here, but nobody appreciates what I do,
so here I am. So I'm in a bind because
I want to attend to them. But it's but you know,
what did you call it? The hired maid? And you
know you'll continue your relationship with them, but you don't
(33:56):
want to be in a situation where you taught you
were becoming coming in as a special person, as the
sister of as this family member, as the savior of
the day. So this is what's happened, is that you
feel devalued and you feel like you lost you know,
you have zero status and you feel taken for granted
and you feel underappreciated, and this whole scenario it won't
(34:21):
change necessarily. You can have a conversation and just say
here's what I'm is going on, and then they may
either say, yes, this is true, or they may say
you're oversensitive. You know, you're making a big deal out
of nothing, or what is actually do you want for
us to give you a price at the end of
every week? Or you know, you may be appreciated or dismissed.
But there's also another way to just say this is
(34:42):
not my place at this moment, and so if you
are actively looking, that's probably what I would suggest.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, And I think the best way you said you're
helping your sister. You had committed to helping your sister
pay with the rent. Is that part of the reason
you moved in?
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Yeah, because honestly, the house that they bought, they bought
it at kind of a crazy time, And I think
they're kind of financially dependent on me too. So I
think a big reason that she hasn't already like kicked
me out is because they're dependent on that income.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Right, So that becomes very eky. Right, you need to
stay because you have the money tissue, and you need
them and they need you to stay. They would everybody
would rather not be together, but we all have financially
dependent on each other, and so it becomes this ekey thing.
I don't want to be with you, but I have
no choice. I don't want to be with you, but
I have no choice, right right?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
And Sammie, can I ask how old the kids are?
Speaker 5 (35:35):
They are twelve?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Okay, Okay, Well, you know, I mentioning that the kids
have you feel like the kids have lost respect for you.
I would say I would attribute that to you allowing
yourself to be caught up in this situation. You moving
out would be another way to reclaim their respect for
you because you tolerating this situation. Also, as in setting
the greatest example, I know you probably feel a little
bit responsible because they are your niece and nephews, but
(35:59):
your responsibility, a first and foremost is to yourself, is
to get yourself out of that situation, and then you
can be actively a much better influence at and all
of the things that you are to them by kind
of extricating yourself. I mean, I agree, you've got to
get yourself out of that situation because listen, there's a
lot of judgment coming from you, and maybe rightfully so
because it does sound like a hot mess. But that's
(36:21):
not good for any dynamic at all. You're all just
gonna get pissed and bitter. The twenty two year old
girl should be paying rent. You shouldn't be working and
paying rent. It's one or the other, you know. If
you're staying there, if you're babysitting for them all the time,
then why are you paying rent?
Speaker 1 (36:34):
But listen, forget about all that convoluted stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
It's just more important you'll find somebody who accepts a
cat and dog, get a nice, humble room so you
can work to pay off what you need to pay
off in this interim time and reclaim your self respect
because you're not in a situation where you're feeling respectful
towards yourself because of the people that you're surrounded with. Yeah,
and I think you will feel better getting out of there,
you know, and you will have less judgment towards them
(36:59):
when it's not in your face every single day.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Right.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Absolutely, you would be a very good therapist.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Ah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Making sure that the kids know that you're available to
them and having that conversation with them, even though right
now they kind of like are annoyed with you or
whatever because you're the only one setting any rules. Like,
they're probably gonna be a little fearal for a little
while because you know, mom and dad aren't paying attention.
But like checking in with them, letting them know that
you're there, I think is maybe the best thing that
you can do.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
And be firm.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Listen, be firm with kids. Kids like boundaries, even if
they don't act like it. It works. It always works
to be firm as an adult with children so that
they know where you stand and they're not going to
take advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
You're not going to put up with any bullshit. You
know you're there. You love them, They can come to you.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
It's your love is unconditional, but you're not going to
put up with any sort of behavior.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
Awesome, Thank you so much. I think it's kind of
the kick in the butt that I need, because you know,
you can tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself,
but you know you kind of have to hear it
from an outside source before you can really give yourself
the p.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
It's said with care from the three of us.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
Absolutely, yeah, no, I know that.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yes, I'm sending you lots of love and I'm sure
you'll find a place soon, so keep on trucking.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Thanks Sammy, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That is really one hot mess of a situation, I know.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
And having added this one to their will and their
bank accounts, I'm like, oh geez, what is going on?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Well, bank accounts? What is that about? What I mean?
Those are they on ecstasy? Like what are they thinking?
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Let's I imagine so.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Well.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Our next caller is Laura, and she had a bit
of a traumatic experience, but is wondering how this is
going to affect her daughter. So Laura says, I'm now
thirty seven, but when I was eighteen, I was invited
to a party by an older guy. My friend and
her boyfriend came with, but my interaction with this guy
quickly went south. He pushed me with full force into
(39:01):
a bush on the side of the house where no
one was and jumped on top of me. Even typing this,
it makes me feel so angry. My friend and her
boyfriend thankfully noticed I was gone, came looking for me,
and rustled him off of me. Almost twenty years later,
I live in a small town and he is a
cop here. Seeing him makes me so uncomfortable. I'm married
(39:21):
now and my husband fully knows the whole story and
hates him deeply too. But i have a beautiful young
daughter I'm raising, and I'm so deeply terrified of the
what ifs for her experience with males. How do I
cope with the fear of what could happen? I know
it's not useful or helpful to me at all, but
it's hard not to be so scared.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Laura Hi Kutie esther perel Lisa here today as our
special guest.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Lui lu oh wow Hi.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Okay, So the guy is a police officer in your neighborhood.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
Have you and him actually met after the yes, since
he's yes now as the and do you have a
sense when you meet him that he knows that you
know that he knows?
Speaker 6 (40:04):
Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent. Actually, three or
four weeks ago, my husband's truck got broken into and
we called the police, and he, of course was the
officer to show up, and then my husband knows. But
it was very uncomfortable because I mean, I have zero
trust in him, obviously because of what he did to me. So,
(40:26):
I mean, it just kind of felt like, I don't
know how to put it, but like, no matter what,
he didn't really care as much, you know, because he
knew what I knew, and he had no idea that
I guess he kind of like thought it was a
secret team he and I. I could kind of tell
he didn't think I had told my husband. I could tell,
but and at the time, my husband's not very confrontational,
(40:46):
so I wasn't gonna say anything about it not so
he didn't want to embarrass me.
Speaker 5 (40:50):
But yeah, it was.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
It was very uncomfortable. And then he gave me his
email address too, so I could send video footage of
the guy who got into the truck. So just I
felt like a never ending process because I didn't want
to speak to him or see him ever again.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
But I mean that's impossible in this town. Do you
ever want to have a conversation with him? Do you
feel the need to tell him, you know, I want
this to be clear between us.
Speaker 6 (41:17):
I've thought about that and I don't know if I
I think it would just be for me because he
doesn't seem remorseful, and I can only tell by you know,
how he handled the situation recently, but even at the
time and the person he's been since then towards me,
he doesn't seem like he would ever care, like at all,
(41:38):
it would never affect him.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Okay, then we have a thing. But then you're asking
about your d I think. But when when I listened
to the story, here's what came up to me. You
had good friends who went with you. Yes, yeah, you
had friends who instantly noticed when you were not there,
thank goodness. Yes. So what this tells you is their
situation where you don't go alone. There are situations where
(42:03):
you go with very close friends and you have a
little quick code in advance. If any of us is
absent for more than you know, we go looking. And
you teach that to your daughter. You don't teach fear,
but you teach the need to understand, to have good
judgment and to have situations where, especially if there's going
to be drinking involved or this or that, to never
(42:26):
just be on your own because we need to watch
out for each other. And then later, much later, I fact,
at some point it matters. You just say, you know,
part of why I'm so vigilant is because and I
just want to make sure that you know this never
happens to you, and it's okay to tell. You don't
have to give details, but you can just say, you know,
(42:48):
I once went to a party and this is what happened.
You don't have to see who it is or any
of that, but just to say, my vigilance comes from somewhere,
it is. It has a good intention. I'm not here
to to restrain you and control you, and that's it.
You're part of You will remain vigilant. Sometimes you will
feel hyper vigilant. Sometimes you will just feel reasonably careful.
(43:12):
And sometimes you won't know if you are being too
much of something or too little of something, because once
you have these kind of experiences that take you outside
of the limits, then you don't. Then that's what gets shaken,
is the sense of the container the limits. Where is safety?
Am I being overly careful? Am I being overly casual?
(43:34):
And that is a part of what we stay with
when we have had boundaries infringed upon like that?
Speaker 6 (43:42):
Right, No, that makes sense. I guess they call me
like a helicopter mom. I guess you'd say I'm like
extra worried all the time, and I feel like I'm
constantly on if that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Yes, of course, of course, but you also want to
teach her as best you can to recognize the science,
because if you take over and you become the watchtower,
then you actually don't then she may have underdeveloped skills
that she could develop herself. It's that fine balance that
(44:16):
you want to You want to be careful for her,
but you don't want to take over to the point
where she becomes less capable of being in the world
because you are her flashlight. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
I think that's very sagacious advice. And I also would
just add that, you know, back to him being a
police officer in your community, you don't have to have
him show up if and when you ever need the
police to come to your house again. There's no reason
that you ever have to interact with him again. You
can easily. I know you live in a small town,
but there's no reason that you can't go to the
police station and be very honest. I mean, I know
(44:49):
you probably don't want to start something in a very
small town, but say I don't want him coming to
my house ever again, like this has to you know,
if there's an emergency. I want even in you know
you're not gonna want to do it in the moment
of it urgency, But he doesn't care, just like you
said he didn't care about your car being stolen. There's
no reason you have to sit with your somebody who
assaulted you in that dynamic. You can very clearly go
(45:10):
in there, explain what happened and say I'm not I
don't want this police officer, or you can leave out
the story and just say I don't want this police
officer ever coming to my house again, you know, and
let them be very clear about the fact that in
case of an emergency or anything else that comes up,
that they can't send him there. You know that's not
fair to you, and that's ridiculous. You could press you know,
(45:30):
you could have pressed charges if you wanted to. Obviously
there's a statute of limitations, but you know that is
not okay for him to come to your house and
you have to interact with him as somebody who's going.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
To protect you, Yeah, and retraumatize you. Have you had
any therapy around that experience, specifically, because I can feel
it in your body still even just reading your email.
Speaker 6 (45:49):
Actually, the year after words. I went to my guydecologists
for my appointment, and I know it sounds silly because
I was eighteen at the time, but I always my
mom goes with me, so my mom was there and
he asked in front of my mom even if something
had happened to me physically, so of course then the
conversation got brought up with my mom. So I did
see a counselor after that. But actually here as of lately,
(46:11):
just with stuff going on with my daughter, I got
back into therapy online and it's been very resourceful for
me with everything going on. But here lately we've started
to like dig deeper into the past. So I think now,
especially talking with you guys, I think it would be
a good idea to bring it up.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Absolutely absolutely, yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
And you're going to be a better mom for it also,
you know, dealing with your trauma, getting it out of
your body, being empowered, you know, which is what you
need to be as a mother and as a woman.
Speaker 6 (46:43):
Thank you. I appreciate that, because the most important thing
to me is to make sure I raise her to
be strong and a good woman and that she doesn't
let I hope she doesn't let anything go on with
her like I did.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
I should have.
Speaker 6 (46:57):
I feel like I should have fought back a little
bit more, but I know it wasn't on me, it
was on him.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
But still the situation was.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, but you don't know what you're going to do
in those situations, people are in shock. Don't beat yourself
up for that. You don't know what you're going to
do in a situation, and you know when you're taking
off guard. You can't be responsible for your actions in
that moment, you know, so absolutely, But thank you for
calling in and I hope that was helpful.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Thank you absolutely, it was.
Speaker 6 (47:22):
Thank you so much, and it was a pleasure talking
with you all and meeting you all very much.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
Thanks a Laura, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
By Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be
back with a final question.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Okay, okay, and we're back.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
We are back, Lindsey says dear Chelsea. I don't know
if I should stay married. I've been with my husband
for eight years, married for one and we have two
little kids, two and four. I also have an older stepdaughter.
About seven months ago, I had a very sudden overnight
awakening where I suddenly felt like all the small all
things about my relationship i'd ignored became big issues for me.
(48:04):
For example, my husband doesn't really have any friends. If
we do things socially, I plan or get the invite
and he comes along. He doesn't have a separate social
life at all. I'm very driven. I'm an ambitious person
with lots of goals. I recently asked him what his
goals were for the future, and he didn't have a
single one. Nothing more than what it is now. This
is okay. I think it's just wildly different from me.
(48:26):
When I talk about my goals, he says, oh, you're
just gonna leave me behind one day. I'm scared to
stay small in order to keep the peace at home.
He's a wonderful dad, and he takes care of his
share of things around the house, but as usual, I
do more than fifty percent of the kid's stuff. We
also don't communicate at times. We don't say a single
word before he leaves the house in the morning. He
(48:46):
doesn't ask me questions or engage in things I have
going on. Basically, we're not active participants in each other's lives.
We cohabitat raise kids together, but are not connected. And
I am craving communication. I love to talk and have
deep conversations, and I feel very deprived of that. I've
explained to him how lonely I feel and how unhappy
I am at times. We have couples therapy scheduled, and
(49:08):
I feel heartbroken by the idea of splitting my kids.
I also know there's an issue because I have feelings
for someone else. This is the second person in a
handful of months I have met and felt feelings for.
There's nothing happening there at all. I just feel strongly
for someone else, which feels important in this situation. The
problem seems to be that I'm settling for good and
(49:29):
dreaming of great It's very hard to choose to leave
a good man with a decent job, who's a great dad.
I'm terrified of the dating world and of heartbreak. I
just don't know what to do or how to do it.
I'm really afraid of making a huge mistake. Thanks so
much for reading, Lindsey.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
That seems to be such a recurring theme, right, the
idea that they want something better, but they're also scared
to go get it.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
So you know they are eight years together when you're married,
and my first question is Lindsey, How did you meet
and what drew you to this man? I mean, what's
the origin story? Obviously he would not have said this
when you when you met him, So what drew you
to him? What was it? And where did you come
(50:15):
from before that he was the person that you chose
at that moment. I think that that would give me
a lot of information in terms of where she's landing
at this moment, because often the very things that one's
complaining about are the same things that one found initially attractive.
You know, he was stable, he was a good dad,
(50:37):
he was reliable, he was there for me. And this
may probably come on the heels of I was in
another relationship that was unstable, that was not reliable. You know,
there's a yin yang in our lives about this. So
this is the first thing. And then I have a
sense that it may be a coincidence that the seven
months ago when this lady woke up, this woman woke up,
(51:01):
is also the seven months when she met this new
person that she has feelings for. You know, these things
are often well timed, and so at this moment, what
are these new feelings or at these feelings that have
taken on a new intensity because you are flirting in
your mind with the idea of another person. And then
(51:21):
this notion that you're going to capos therapy but you
hate to break up your family. You're not going to
copos therapy to break up your family, but you may
be going to cople therape to understand that the man
you are with now is the man you've always been with,
and that this is about also coming to terms with
your choice. No, he may not be any mootor he
may be more on a spectrum more. He may be
(51:43):
not a person who has great ambitions, but he is
a person who will support your ambitions, and that is
a perfectly valuable platform as well. He will be there
so that you can go out into the world and
he will accompany you, and he won't argue where you
ask him to come. You may want someone who has
their own life and their own initiatives and all of that.
(52:05):
Did he have them when you met? Did he forego
them in order to solidify his connection with It's like
there's a few pieces of information here that would help
say this is the direction or that this is not
about I'm willing to let go of good for great
is I don't think that this is a question about
how can I optimize and maximize my life. This is
(52:27):
fundamentally about you're coming to terms with the choice you
made that you may or may not have acknowledged to
yourself from day one.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
You know, I think a lot of people feel this way.
Be careful what you wish for. Right You could be
in a relationship with somebody who has a million things
going on, and then you could feel ignored and invisible
and that.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
You're not getting enough from that person.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
So it's like there is this feeling of the grass
is always greener as there are like with couples, you
know they get to this.
Speaker 4 (52:52):
It took my sentence away. I was going to go there,
and I decided to wait. But yes, it's like you
know you when you are with someone who is very
active and has a whole life, the fault line is
you know you're not available for me. When you are
with a person who is available for you but doesn't
have many other things, then it's you know you're too
(53:13):
dependent on me. In both cases, the question is less
about this man and more about this woman and the
nature of her relationship to him, and this idea that
she has to make herself small in order to maintain
the peace. No, No, he's not. Probably he's maybe not
asking that either. If you say, you know, if I
lift my boat, it lifts all boats. And we are
(53:36):
going on this together. And what I get from you
is the support for my ambitions. That's what matters, not
does he have his own? You know? What you want
is to know what he does with yours? Is he
threatened by it? When he says you made when day
leave me? Is because you keep telling him that he's
a bum and you don't really find him interesting or
(53:56):
attractive because he doesn't have anything pulling him. What's the
dialogue that we don't hear here is what I would
like to understand. And one last thing I would add
maybe is sometimes your relationship is the source of the nurturance,
of the happiness of the engagement. But sometimes the relationship
is more of a scaffolding, and the scaffolding that makes
(54:20):
it available for you to go into the world and
to get your food and your nourishment and your engagements
and your ambitions met there. And those are two viable models.
It may be that in this instance what's between the
two of you is less about the intimacy of the
connection as between what this relationship gives to each of
(54:44):
you makes possible for both of you in life. And
that is also a respectable choice, just so you know,
may not be the one she chooses to make, but
it is a very common choice. It just is often
not named like this, but it is a very clear decision.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
And I also would add looking at counseling as an opportunity,
not as a failure, like you're going to go to
counseling and there's a huge opportunity for growth there between
you and your partner, reconnecting and finding rediscovering each other
in a way that you had it before. It's an
opportunity for your partner to gain a better understanding of
(55:22):
what you're feeling and how you're feeling and how you're
feeling seen and what you.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
Want from him.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
And if at the end of all of that, you
guys don't get together and get stronger, then you have
a very kind of clear path forward that it's not what.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
You're looking for.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
You know, if you're distracted by other people during your marriage,
I don't think that's an uncommon theme. I think it's
a matter of is that distraction like a yearning to
be out of your marriage or is it simply a distraction.
I mean, it's very clear, like as you were reading
this letter that you were going to mention you had
a crush on somebody at some point.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
Because that's what was you know, we've asked.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Both of us were like, ah, yeah, but just look
at counseling is huge. It's a huge opportunity for growth
within yourself, within your marriage, and for your partner. So
look at everything as an advantage. The more knowledge you have,
the better you are making a decision. And if your
marriage can survive this, then you're going to be stronger
for it. And if you do decide to split, then
that's okay too. Then you can go pursue all.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Of these things you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Hopefully you can pursue them within your marriage by just
having a better line of communication and understanding of each other.
Speaker 4 (56:28):
I think I would add another piece to it as well, Chelseae,
is that what I'm not hearing enough is a basic
appreciation for the man, for the person, for what he represents,
not for what he does, not for the fifty percent,
but for who he is, for the love he brings,
for the care, the attention, the reliability. All these things
(56:48):
are actually very big things if your relationship will disintegrate
if it becomes a relationship where two people are basically
criticizing each other and pointing only at the shortcomings and
the failures and the gaps rather than and take for
granted what is and only highlight what's missing. And that
piece is something I hope you develop in and cultivating
(57:12):
the couple's therapy and in you know, people want to
know that they matter, that they mean something, that they're there,
and that their presence is appreciated and not that their
presence is evaluated and measured.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yeah, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
Okay, well, good luck with that situation and thank you
as Stair. So your course on conflict, how can people
sign up for that?
Speaker 4 (57:33):
Rate to the website Esteraparil dot com. Is the couple
of course. It's called Turning Conflict into Connection. Where should
we begin? You all know it's the podcast. It's on
Apple and on vox and anywhere you listen to your
podcasts with the subscription on Apple, and it is basically this,
it's live couples Therapy. It's what we've been doing together,
(57:55):
is the podcast. It's live relationship therapy with individuals and
couples where you fly on the wall listening in on
the sessions of others and where should we begin the game.
It's also on my website and on Amazon, And that's
how do you actually It's the tool for communication to
establish connection, curiosity, trust, playfulness in your relationships by having
(58:19):
very beautiful questions that lead to storytelling, not to answers,
but to storytelling, because relationships are stories.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Wonderful.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
Your husband must be like he must lose any sort
of argument at any time that you guys have had.
I mean, how can you be married to someone like
you and stay at your ground?
Speaker 1 (58:36):
He must have to defer to you on everything. It's
the ultimate position to be in, you.
Speaker 4 (58:40):
Think you think for decades later? No, no, no, I
have someone who but I'll tell you you goes a
long way as you know. Yeah, okay, so one way
to deflate me completely is to make me laugh. That
quite me?
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Ye, that works for me as well for my future lovers. Anyway,
thank you Snare for being on our podcast today as pleasure.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (59:07):
Thank you Bothay take care theare Chelsea. Do you have
some new dates for us? Oh?
Speaker 1 (59:14):
You know, I do you know, I do. I have
a lot of We added lots.
Speaker 2 (59:18):
Of Canadian cities, Canadians, I'm coming.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
We added about fifteen new tour dates.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
I'm coming to Denver again, Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Richmond, Virginia,
Santa Rosa, California, Gary and Deanna, Baltimore, Verona, New York,
and about seven dates in Canada. So go to Chelseahandler
dot com. I am performing everywhere. I will be on
tour all for the rest of the year and through December,
(59:49):
and then next year I'm going to be touring all year.
Speaker 1 (59:52):
So come and get it, you guys. It's good times and.
Speaker 2 (59:55):
It's a very much needed reprieve from all the fucking
madness that's going on in this world.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
So I'm here to bring joy and sunshine.
Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Do you have a.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
Holiday themed question for Chelsea? Please send us all the
questions you need answered about crazy family get togethers, arguing
over which Cranberry sauce recipe to us, and all your
holiday drama. Just send your questions to Dear Chelsea podcast
at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
by Brad Dickard, executive producer Catherine Law and be sure
(01:00:26):
to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com
Hi there, Catherine, Oh, Hey, Chelsea, Hey, Hey, hey jam
packed a couple of days. I'm in New York City
today yet again.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Yes, I have a jew event that I have to
go to today. What did I do yesterday?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I had.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I had a lot of exciting things happen, a lot
of exciting things. I landed in New York yesterday and
I saw about sixteen different friends and one fell swoop.
I saw so many people in one day that I
didn't even get into my hotel room until ten o'clock
at night for the first time.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And then I left again. Yeah, and I went on
a date that was cute.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Oh and then oh, I went to my knee surgeon
so he could give me the thumbs up for skiing.
Because I'm heading to Whistler soon and I'm doing all
my Canadian dates there, So if you're Canadian, make sure
you look go to Chelseahandler dot com because I'm coming
to a city near you over winter. I have all
my Canadian dates set up from January to March, so
(00:51):
I'm very excited about that. And I just announced Australia too.
I'm coming to Australia, you guys in July. So I
think I have about five or six shows there anyway.
But I have this little like thing on my knee
for my surgery that like, it's not the swelling isn't
going down on one of the incision sites, so it
looks almost like a wart. So I went into my
doctor this morning and I was like, you need to
fucking cut this off, Like what is this? And he's like, oh,
(01:14):
that looks like fluid. So I went down to have
them drain in. They're like, that's not fluid, it's like
scar tissue. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
you have to remove my leg full amputation. I can't
have this. I'm single, like I'm trying to hook up. Yeah,
I can't have a fucking ward on my knee. No,
So I'm probably gonna have to sue him. I'm not
in any lawsuits right now, so I don't see why
I shouldn't start one.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I mean, you have to have one going at all times, right.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, my father was very litigious and I picked up
a lot of that, and the last lawsuit I had
was I won. That was very satisfying, encouraging. I've been
in two lawsuits. One was short, little like short Claims
Court or whatever, Small Claims court, short claims, small Claims Court.
I sued them once for an outfit they ruined during
dry cleaning, and I won like one hundred and forty bucks.
I was like twenty two, So I felt very vindicated
(01:58):
at that point in my life. And this is my
second lawsuit and I won that too, and I won
a lot more than one hundred and forty dollars.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Well that's fantastic. I mean personally, I wouldn't continue to
roll the dice if I had like a winning streak
or two for two, I.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Know I should probably, Well, the three is a really
lucky number. That's where I really cash out. Have you
ever read the book?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Tomorrow? Tomorrow Tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
It's like literally on my nightstand right now. It almost
started it this weekend, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I've been so many people have told me to
read this book, and I'm reading it and everyone keeps saying, oh,
I go, isn't it about gaming? And they're like, it
is about gaming, but it's not about gaming. Yeah, but
it's all about gaming. The whole book is about gaming.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
See.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I love that, though, So I'm waiting for the story
that's not about gaming to happen. But I mean, I'm
still reading about gaming and it's a slow read for me.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh, you know what everybody has to.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Watch if they haven't watched American Symphony, they have to
watch American Symphony.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
But that is fucking amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And it's a documentary on John Fatiste and his wife
and she wrote that book Between Two Kingdoms.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Have you read that book, Catherine?
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, that's a great book too.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
It's all about her journey of like being sick and
she was diagnosed with leukemia when she's like twenty two,
and her whole life has just basically been one transplant
after another or after another after another.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
But it's pretty it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, you know what, Chelsea, I thought of you when
I read this book. I just finished The Island of
the Sea Women. It came out a few years ago.
Have you read this?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
No? I haven't. What is that?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
It is fascinating. It's about this matriarchal society in South
Korea and these women who dive to go get seafood,
various different seafoods. And because they're the ones who dive,
they're the ones with the money and the men stay
home with the kids. But it is a fascinating history
of South Korea and about these women, and some of
them are even still alive and continue to dive to
(03:38):
this day in modern times. It's fantastic. I will bring
you my copy next week if you want to read it.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's okay, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would love that you
would like it. I'd like any society that's all women.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
It's like historical fiction, so it gets very very dramatic.
A lot of shit happens.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I like historical fiction too. I didn't used to, but
I've started to warm up to it.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I love history.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Into one of those older people that just loves history.
I can't get enough of it. The other day, I
was looking up you know, like, you know how Pearl
Harbor kind of was the reason that America ended up
getting into World War two, but they were having their
own war, the Pacific War in Japan, but Japan had
allied with Italy and Germany. Because I was like, my
friend's like, why was Japan involved in World War Two?
(04:20):
And I'm like, I feel like I know the answer
to this, but I don't, And so I had to
do a deep dive and so I do love it.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I do love it. It's something that actually I can
really focus on as history.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I feel like history is basically just like really good
gossip about world events. You know, It's stuff that we
continue to talk about, and it's juicy and it's interesting
and kind.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Sure, I'm gonna start looking at history as gossip now. Yeah,
I was hoping that was my one reprieve from gossip
because that seems to take up a lot of my time.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Also, especially when you see sixteen friends in one day.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
People fucking love gossiping, right.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Okay, So who do we have on deck today? What's
our story?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Actually, today we're talking with Esther Perell and she is
on the line.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, good morning, Esther. How are you?
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Helloilu, I'm friend, how are you?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Oh, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you this morning.
This is Catherine, she's our producer.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
There, so exciting. Okay, So, well, everybody knows you. You're
a very famous psychotherapist who deals with couples, couples therapy,
sex lives, sex between couples, breakdowns between couples, and you
are the author of Mating in Captivity, which was a huge,
huge success, which a lot of people who are listening
to this podcast have read, as well as the State
of Affairs. So I know that you are launching a
(05:39):
course on conflict, which is called Turning Conflict into Connection.
So let's discuss that conflict and connection.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Which one are you better at.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I'm really good at conflict. I'm very good at conflict.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Actually, it's very funny you mentioned that because I have
had trouble making connection in the past few months of
my life. I thought this would be the time for
me to be like blossoming and meeting someone. So there
hasn't been a ton of conflict, but there also hasn't
been a ton of connection.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
What kind of conflict person are you? What's your style style?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Well, I've been in therapy, so I've nipped my you know,
my shortcomings in the buds, so to speak. I'm not
as crazy or scary, I should say, as I used
to be.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'm much more, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
But I didn't do any tame tame, and I understand
how to speak about things, and I understand that defensiveness
is not really a winning argument, you know. But yes,
I've experienced conflicts in my relationships as everybody has. And
I feel like I've gotten much better at resolving conflict.
But you need two participants that are very good at
resolving conflict, is what I've learned.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
I think the first thing you said that I want
to highlight is that conflict is intrinsic to relationships. It's
not that this is part and parcel of it. We disagree,
we argue, we fight, and sometimes conflict is actually very
helpful to be dressed wrong, to create a different level
of engagement, to feel more emboldened, to ask for what
(07:06):
one wants. I mean, there's a lot of good juice
in conflict, but then there is also a whole other
way that people sometimes get trapped into their arguments and
they're bickering, and there's a range. Right, conflict is a
word that's like an umbrella underneath it, there are multiple
tentacles of how we fight. We disagree, we argue, we bicker,
(07:31):
we do slow you know, low intensity warfare or high
intensity warfare. But generally what people want is how do
we fight better? But this doesn't mean resolve things, but
it's how do we not devolve? How do we not
fall prey to the traps and the defeating strategies that
(07:52):
we often have when we fight, Like how do we
not bring up everything in the relationship all at once
when we are arguing about one thing. How do we
not go totalistic and it becomes you always and you never?
How do we, you know, take responsibility and not feel
like if I give in an inch, I lost my
whole sense of pride and my whole identity. How do
(08:14):
we decide what's wise not to say even if we
are right that there's a difference between being right and
being wise. It's all of that. And in these days
especially where we often have become quite conflict avoidant, it's
like I don't want to talk to you, I don't
want I have not we disagree, therefore you're out of
my life kind of thing. We really could use sharpening
(08:37):
our social skills for how to be together to deal
with fighting is not about fighting, it's about actually how
to relate and how to connect.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Obviously, the biggest roadblock for relationships is communication, right, I
mean that's pretty much all roads lead to that.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Would you agree with that or what do you think?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
I think that communication is a word that we often
use to say, how do I tell you what I
need think feel. How do I get through to you?
How I get you to acquiesce with me? How do
I get you to understand me, to validate me, to
relate to me. It's okay. It's the buzzwords under which
(09:19):
a lot is subsumed, which is fine. I prefer to
think about relating. You know, I asked a question recently
that became very It's the favorite of mine for the
last two weeks. You know, you get a question and
you tried out in many spaces. Did you grow up
playing freely on the street? I did, Yes, an enormous
(09:39):
amount of people no longer do that. And what you
got when you played freely on the street, and I
asked this in four different countries where I've been touring,
is that you had unscripted, unmonitored, unchoreographed social interaction. You
practiced social negotiation. You played, you fought, you made rules,
you broke rules, you competed, you were jealous, you made friends.
(10:03):
This whole thing allowed you to learn how to relate
and to develop social skills. When we say we don't communicate,
it's not true. We communicate all the time. We communicate
with silence, we communicate with lift, eyebrows. We communicate with smirks,
We communicate with moving our head away. We communicate by
(10:26):
arguing back. We communicate. We're just not communicating in a
way that connects us. So when people say we don't communicate,
what they're saying is we're not connecting. We're fighting. We
are a part. We are experiencing each other as enemies.
We are saying things as if we don't care about
(10:47):
the person that we're saying it to, when in fact
it's the person that we need for their life. We
communicate non stop, but some of our communication creates productive interactions,
and some of our commun udication is destructive or defeating
or disrupting.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So in the course you talk about that, you talk
about constructive versus destructive conflict. So can you give us
an example.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Of the two?
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Which one shall? I start with the negative, because we
are very, very creative in our negative ways of how
we fight. I mean, here are sure bets to torpedo
your relationship, to undermine it. Right, So we just went
through one. I'll just name it. It's called kitchen sinking.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
We're arguing about whatever you didn't water the plants or
I asked you to do something and you didn't do it,
or I forgot one more time, you know whatever. But
in the course of this argument, we are putting in
ten years of a relationship, and we put pile up
all the dirty dishes, and in fact, you can't wash
a single dish when you've got them all piled up
(11:56):
on top of each other. Or I disqualify everything you say.
You can give me ten things, and all these things
I actually have no problem with, but I'll argue with
the one thing that I have that I can disagree
with you on, you know, like seriously, that becomes really
of biblical proportion, you know, basically looking for evidence that
(12:19):
reinforces my belief. I fundamentally think you don't care about me,
and everything that I bring up are proofs that I
am right, even if it's the thing I want to
feel the least. I mean, the last thing I want
to believe is that you don't care about me. But
I'm going to prove you that you don't care about me,
and it's so twisted. I'm also going to, of course
(12:40):
think that when I was late, it's because there was traffic,
you know, but when you are late, it's because you
are really not attentive and not responsible. Mine is circumstantial,
yours is characterological. Those are some of the you know,
the classic negatives we escalate. I say something, you bring
(13:01):
up something else that is bigger than mine, and then
I say, yeah, you really want to talk about it.
Let me remind you this one, you know. And in
the end we've both completely polarized and lonely in our corners,
and you know, where's the relationship? But it's productive. It's
I'm really pissed, you know, and I want to tell
you why, and you tell it, and you don't, and
(13:21):
you don't go cursing the person, and you don't go
you always, you never, you know, and you go to
totalistic in your categorical thinking. You stick to the point
you put. You express your anger, you're discontent, your disbelief,
you're even you know, your fury doesn't matter, it's okay.
And then you say what you have to say, and
(13:43):
now you shut up and you listen for a minute,
and hopefully on the other side there's someone who either says,
I get it while you're so pissed, or it's really
hard for me to hear how pissed you are, because
it was really not my intention. That's absolutely not what
I thought about this, or you have a point, this
is true. A person earlier today says to me and
(14:06):
he says, you know, I really want to I want
us to be close. I want us to do things.
I want us to go out, I want to say,
And then she says, he says, you're not there. You're
not there. And then she says, give me an example.
That's like the killer one. Give me an example, because
the first thing you're going to do with the example
is shut it down, right. So he gives examples, and
so of course she argues with every example, and she
tries to say and basically he says, but you're there
(14:28):
for all your friends, you know, and you're just not there.
And basically I said to her, it's like, but you
agree with him, Why don't you just tell him you're right?
For some reason, I have an energy for my friends
I don't have for you. And I'm sorry, I get
it why it's upsetting to you, And honestly it's upsetting
to me too, because I actually don't understand why I
(14:48):
have zero energy to bring into our relationship. That makes
a conversation very short. Rather than arguing with every example
that he gave to prove to him that he shouldn't
feel lonely because she's really present, she's not.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
But so, then what's the next step when somebody like
admits something like that, like, you're right, I don't have
the energy for you that I have for my girlfriends,
then what And I.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Don't know why, And I completely can see why that's
upsetting to you, And you know what, it's upsetting to
me too because I don't understand it and I don't
like it, and I don't know what to do about it.
But I'm gonna take I'm gonna take it seriously. I'm sorry.
So that's the beginning, Is you acknowledge a shared reality,
(15:33):
then then what? Then you often go from the anger
to the sadness, to the longing to the yearning to the.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Loss, which is a nicer place to be to start
a conversation. Absolutely well, okay, so talk about explosives versus implosives.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So imagine explosives. Is I'm one, you know, when I
get in there, my volume goes up, you know, and
if you don't answer, my value goes my volume goes
up a little more, you know. And I'm living with
someone who the higher I go, the quieter they go.
And they think that because they're quiet at some point,
(16:11):
you know, quite people sometimes thinks if I don't say anything,
at some point, she will stop. But of course she
or whoever that person is, doesn't necessarily stop, because if
you don't answer, then I feel like I'm talking to
the wind. And then I just become more and more
vociferous because there is no container. Whereas if you just
said to me, I get it, I hear you something,
(16:35):
then I know my point has crossed the bridge and
has arrived on the other side of the river. You know.
So what you have is people who are fighters, people
who are more into flight, and sometimes you have a
dynamic where you have one fight, one flight, and it
goes like this. So there's three primary choreographies. These are
(16:58):
just ways of organizing what we see and so that
we can enter. You know, it's like, what's the theater
of this argument? How do these people? How do these
people get stuck? What do they say and what do
they do to each other? And whether are they not
saying or doing that would make it better for them
when they go into this cycle of conflict?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And do do you meet with people a lot where
you feel like this must have happened. I don't know
if this is a frequent thing where you feel like
one of the partners is just unable to do the
work or to be able to hear the other person,
and that you found the situation hopeless, or do you
feel like there's always a kernel of something you can
deliver to them to help them engage.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
I'll do my best, and sometimes I think not yet
or not today. You know, I'm thinking of an episode
in the podcast, and where should we begin? Where they
have vicious fights, so they both explode. When she asks
him to do something, he instantly hears his dad giving
him orders. When he doesn't do what she asks, she
(18:04):
instantly experiences once again, I'm going to be all alone.
I took care of everybody in my family growing up,
and this puts me right back there again. It's all
on me. And so the first thing you do that
you hope people can transition with you is instead of
what is it that you're fighting about like the cat
litter in their case, it's what is it that you're
(18:26):
fighting for, which in her case is I'm fighting not
to be all alone? In his case, is I'm fighting
not to be dismissed by my father. I was going
to put an adjective, but I want. And what I
ended up doing with them, which was really, you know,
you try anything you can when you've got this crescendo going.
(18:46):
I just said, at one point, can I just ask
you something? Would you please both life flat on the
floor and continue the argument. Now, there's something about when
we fight, we like we are mammals. We are upright,
our shoulders go up, our neck goes in, our clothes
come out, you know. But if you lie flat on
the floor, it's kind of hard to continue. So you
(19:07):
go into the body. You try through the instrument of
the body to say, you know, let's let's see if
I can get you unglued from these inevitable corners where
you find yourself. On occasion, somebody says I'm not lying down,
or this is ridiculous, or what's that going to do?
(19:28):
Or why shall I? Or why me? You know why
you keep pointing your finger at me? And then you
come back the next time and you say, this is
not about pointing a finger at you, because but you
don't want to live like this, you wouldn't be here.
Of course, I understand coupos therapy is sometimes a drop
off center, right, you bring your partner to get fixed,
(19:48):
and you say and you say, I'm an expert and
I can help you if.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You need Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's like I've been a therapy, let me show you
the way exactly. It never works either. Okay, we're going
to take a quick break and then we're going to
come back and take some callers.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
And we're back.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I was just thinking about the pressure it must. I mean,
obviously this is your chosen career and you're very successful
at it, but the pressure that you must feel with
couples coming in because I know I've been a couples
therapy and I was like, all right, it's on you.
If you can save this relationship, great, but this is
your responsibility now. I mean, the pressure you must feel
(20:31):
must be immense.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
So the first thing I want to tell you, Chelsea
is I've met you before, like I know this entrance
point and my typical The first thought that comes to
mind is I cannot want this more than you need
to want it yourself, because it's not my relationship. I
cannot take this song where I care more about what's
going to happen to the two of you than you.
(20:55):
So I care a ton, but I am disempowered. If
I care more than the person whose own relationship is
at stake, I feel a tremendousness of responsibility. I also
think that often people come past do date, and you know,
it depends what good will is left, how much people
(21:16):
really want this to change. If they just want to
be right, then there's a good chance that they will
be right and alone right.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
And from there let's transition into colors.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Our first question is not.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Really about conflict, but Crystal is our email center today.
Dear Chelsea. When I was thirty seven, I was diagnosed
with breast cancer and had to go through it, all
of it all at once, freezing my eggs, double mistectomy,
and chemo. Two years later and I'm on the other
side of it, cancer free and finally feeling ready to
date and have sex again. Here's the thing. I had
(21:51):
reconstructive surgery shortly after I was diagnosed. My new boobs
look perfectly fine. They aren't in ten and two positions
or anything, but they're pretty hard and they are spots.
I can feel the crinkle of the implants. When I
asked my surgeon if they were ever going to feel
any better, She explained, They're never going to fully feel
like real boobs since my milk ducks and fat toooshore
are gone, it's just the bags in there. It was
(22:12):
upsetting to wrap my heat around, but it is what
it is. I guess I should be thankful that I
still have my nipples. Here are my questions now that
I'm about to start dating again. Should I tell a
guy about my boobs if I want to have sex
with him? Do I not say anything? Because it's a heavy,
awkward conversation and frankly a turn off. If I don't
say anything, I'm worried I'll be super self conscious during
(22:32):
sex and be caught up studying his reaction. Also, how
do I mentally prepare myself in case some guy says
something insensitive or has a less than desirable reaction? How
do I reframe this very deep insecurity for myself? Thanks
for all you do, Crystal.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, Esther, why don't you go first? Since you're the professional,
So I'll just tell you what came up for me
as I'm listening to you, Crystal, is that you are
a thirty six near old woman who has just gone
through a huge experience, and you have gone through something
that most of us do not know, and you're coming
(23:10):
out on the other side, and you want to re
engage with life, and you want to reconnect with the
erotic force inside of you, and that is absolutely beautiful.
And you are a woman with a whole body and
all kinds of other organs, and your biggest organ is
your skin, and you're focusing on one thing, your boobs.
(23:33):
If you had her piece, it would be a different story.
It would affect the other person. In this case, this
is yours.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
And as you get to know the person you're dating,
at some point you'd start to talk about what have
been some important experiences in your life, and you'll probably
end up talking about, I had cancer very young, and
this is what happened to me, and part of that
you know, and how do you feel today? Well, one
thing that I have is this, but I am alive
(23:59):
and I am healthy, and all of that proceeds, and
that's where you will draw your sense of strength and
your resilience and your confidence rather than just focusing on
the insecurity may not necessarily be a turn off. You
don't know if you mind somebody, for whom you know
your breast are their fati ish short while, but bring
(24:20):
the rest of who you are to the experience, and
at some point when you feel more comfortable, when you
feel a little more trusting, when you've heard a little
bit of the reactions about other things, then you just say
and then you ask how does that information land on
you? You know, lead it, don't be too scared. And most
of the time the people won't know what to say.
(24:42):
So if you hold the conversation and you lead it
with confidence, you will feel so empowered. Actually, what is
it like for you that this is a situation? Is
that even important to you? You can be a wonderful
lover regardless of what happens to your breasts. And that's
what we matters is what you end up experiencing together
(25:02):
with this person. If they end up focusing just on that,
you probably have the wrong address.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, And also I would like to say additionally, there
are so many things as a woman that I get
turned off by from men if I'm on a date
or whatever, and when you really like someone, that all
flies away. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know, every woman
has something they're insecure about. Anyway, You're just focusing on
that because that is your issue right now. But what
you know, what Esther said is so much more important
(25:29):
and valuable. You're alive, you're healthy, you're ready to mingle.
You want to have some action, Like you want to
be in love and be in a relationship. That's more
important than a couple of lumps or bumps or whatever.
You feel like, is it perfect about your breast? Every
woman has a body part that they're not happy about,
you know. Eventually you just have to get over it
and realize what your attributes are or what the best
things about you are that you love, you know, and
(25:52):
then that comes across too.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So yeah, get out there, sister.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, and I think you know, Sarah, I'm so glad
you brought up like that. Might be somebody who's like
a fetish or you know, some guys are like that's
what they love. They love fake boobs, so they're like
very into that.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Or they might be an ass man who knows, Yeah,
they might not care about boobs at all. So it's
like you're worrying about something that you're creating a worry
that you don't have to. You know, you go out
there and just and be your lovely, beautiful self. Everybody
has a little thing that they don't like, so you're
not alone in that. And the more important thing is
that you're healthy and you're able to go on dates.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
I think the concern is real, you know. I think
I understand the question, and I really appreciate you asking
the question because you're just coming out and there is
this kind of you know, who am I now? And
there is a sense that this is not the body
that you knew. But you will find yourself more at
ease inside your own skin as you did people and
hopefully you did mature people for whom what matters is
(26:50):
what is created between the two of you, not what
hangs on you.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
What would you say is the right sort of timing
to bring this up?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
You know, obviously it's not while you're like walking in
the front door making out, but you know, is it
early on? Is that after you've kind of gotten to
know the person? Is it maybe after you've even had
sex ones?
Speaker 4 (27:10):
You know, I don't think there's a rule on these things,
but I think that what you want is a broader conversation.
The conversation is, you know, it can be Have you
ever had transformative experiences. Have ever been close to death?
Have you ever felt physically vulnerable? Have you known fear?
Have you know? You know, there's other questions that are
(27:32):
broad questions, and then you bring that question to you
and you say, actually, yes, I once was diagnosed with cancer.
And so that's how it's brought in. It's not like
this is part of your CV, you know, and you
have to share this as your data. You know, this
is not data. This is stuff that grows out of
exploration and discovery of two people who get to know
(27:55):
each other. And you may find that, you know, you
have no idea what people bring, what the experiences people have.
You know, they may not have had cancer themselves, but
there's a good chance that they know somebody who died
of it or who had it or survived it, or
you know. So it's that conversation. It has to do
with trust, it has to do with context. This was
(28:18):
a good moment to say it. They don't say it
when you naked, I actually would not. Don't say it
while you're walking together and you know, in your in motion,
so that the stress can also kind of evacuate through
the through the body, and don't bring it as I
have a secret to tell you. This is not a secret,
and it's not a piece of data. You don't owe anything.
(28:40):
This is as we're getting to know each other, one
of the important things to know about me is this
experience that I had, as I have had other very
important experiences, but maybe this one has shaped me even
more than anything else. And in the course of that
experience you talk about you know, actually one of the
things that has stayed with me is that I had
to have reconstructive surgery. And you don't say is that
(29:03):
okay with you? You just sis, that's the part. It's
a piece of my life that's.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Not okay with you.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Awesome wheur next question comes from Sammy. She is thirty six.
Dear Chelsea. Last year, three days before I moved in
with my sister, her husband informed me that they now
have an open marriage and my sister is dating a
twenty two year old gal. Needless to say, I was
a little shocked and put off by the situation. Polyamory
(29:30):
in general doesn't bother me, but my sister and her
husband already don't have the strongest marriage. Bringing in this
third person has proven nothing more than the catastrophe you'd
imagine On top of that, they tend to be so
wrapped up in the relationship they completely forget they have children.
I hear several times a week from both of them,
I need to spend more time with the kids, but
this is never done. In fact, they spend more time
(29:52):
fighting about their situation than anything. Then they make up
and watch Big Love or Sister Wives and pretend they
have this perfect union. A few months later, the girl
moved into the house. She isn't working or going to school.
My sister and brother in law have added her to
their bank accounts now and their will and as an
emergency contact for kids at the school, literally leaving me
(30:14):
to be nothing but a babysitter when they want to
do things as a threatle They've basically made me the
enforcer of rules, chores, etc. Furthermore, I pay rent to
live here, and the paramour does not big surprise. I know.
I went from being the cool aunt to the mean aunt,
and all I want is for my nieces and nephews
to give me the same love and respect they give
their other aunts and uncles. I love my sister and
(30:36):
the kids, but this whole situation is nothing more than
a disaster. Waiting to blow up bigger than it already is.
I'll eventually move out of the house. I told my
sister when I moved in, i'd stay for two years
to help with the mortgage, etc. And I plan to
keep my word on that. But what can I do
in the meantime? Love and respect, Sammy.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
Hi, sam Hi, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
What a hot mess of a situation your Oh no.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Not understatement of the year.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Oh my gosh. Okay, Astair, you go first. I'm dying
to hear what you have to say about this.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
What are you doing there? Seriously? I mean, I offered
to pay for the mortgage, and I'm going to keep
my commitment. I mean, what where is your life?
Speaker 5 (31:22):
I was in a place where, you know, I was
struggling on my own, so I was happy to come
help my sister out with her family, and I had
a place to stay in a reof over my head.
But I wasn't expecting all of it.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Okay, but now things have changed, so you may have
had very good reasons for why you chose to do
this back then. This is absolutely not a judgment, but
now it's like, why what are you doing there? Why
are you doing this, Let them be, let them swim
in their own messes, and be available to the kids
(31:57):
if you want to and have a life of your own.
You're absorbing this whole drama that isn't yours and that
doesn't need a fight, that just needs simply I think
that at this moment, your life's have evolved in a
certain way and I need to retreat and kind of
(32:17):
resume my own track. What's standing in the way of
your doing.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
That currently finances, I'm working on paying some stuff back,
some loans back, So as soon as that is all
taking care of, my goal is to run as fast
as I can.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
And you're paying rent, right, So can you pay that
rent to somebody else?
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Yes, but probably not as nice of the rent that
I'm paying now. I'm still paying rent, but it's still
significantly less than my own place, for sure.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
You know. But is there somebody else? Can you rent
a room in someone else's big house?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Possibly?
Speaker 5 (32:51):
I mean I've looked. I'm on you know, Facebook, sites
with renting rooms and that kind of stuff, and I've
been reaching out and inquire. But a lot of it
is I have a dog and a cat, and a
lot of people don't allow pats. So that's kind of
a little bit of a wall too. So I'm I'm
actively working on it, and I have you know, friends
that are looking and helping me as well.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
But I think that that's the primary You know, this
is not about what do you tell your sister, what
do you tell the other woman? What you tell you know,
it's really challenging when you are in the midst of
another family and you see things that hurt other people
and therefore hurt you. So you watch the little Smurfs
(33:33):
and you say, I feel for them. Nobody's attending to them.
I have to be here, but nobody appreciates what I do,
so here I am. So I'm in a bind because
I want to attend to them. But it's but you know,
what did you call it? The hired maid? And you
know you'll continue your relationship with them, but you don't
(33:56):
want to be in a situation where you taught you
were becoming coming in as a special person, as the
sister of as this family member, as the savior of
the day. So this is what's happened, is that you
feel devalued and you feel like you lost you know,
you have zero status and you feel taken for granted
and you feel underappreciated, and this whole scenario it won't
(34:21):
change necessarily. You can have a conversation and just say
here's what I'm is going on, and then they may
either say, yes, this is true, or they may say
you're oversensitive. You know, you're making a big deal out
of nothing, or what is actually do you want for
us to give you a price at the end of
every week? Or you know, you may be appreciated or dismissed.
But there's also another way to just say this is
(34:42):
not my place at this moment, and so if you
are actively looking, that's probably what I would suggest.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, And I think the best way you said you're
helping your sister. You had committed to helping your sister
pay with the rent. Is that part of the reason
you moved in?
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Yeah, because honestly, the house that they bought, they bought
it at kind of a crazy time, And I think
they're kind of financially dependent on me too. So I
think a big reason that she hasn't already like kicked
me out is because they're dependent on that income.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Right, So that becomes very eky. Right, you need to
stay because you have the money tissue, and you need
them and they need you to stay. They would everybody
would rather not be together, but we all have financially
dependent on each other, and so it becomes this ekey thing.
I don't want to be with you, but I have
no choice. I don't want to be with you, but
I have no choice, right right?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
And Sammie, can I ask how old the kids are?
Speaker 5 (35:35):
They are twelve?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Okay, Okay, Well, you know, I mentioning that the kids
have you feel like the kids have lost respect for you.
I would say I would attribute that to you allowing
yourself to be caught up in this situation. You moving
out would be another way to reclaim their respect for
you because you tolerating this situation. Also, as in setting
the greatest example, I know you probably feel a little
bit responsible because they are your niece and nephews, but
(35:59):
your responsibility, a first and foremost is to yourself, is
to get yourself out of that situation, and then you
can be actively a much better influence at and all
of the things that you are to them by kind
of extricating yourself. I mean, I agree, you've got to
get yourself out of that situation because listen, there's a
lot of judgment coming from you, and maybe rightfully so
because it does sound like a hot mess. But that's
(36:21):
not good for any dynamic at all. You're all just
gonna get pissed and bitter. The twenty two year old
girl should be paying rent. You shouldn't be working and
paying rent. It's one or the other, you know. If
you're staying there, if you're babysitting for them all the time,
then why are you paying rent?
Speaker 1 (36:34):
But listen, forget about all that convoluted stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
It's just more important you'll find somebody who accepts a
cat and dog, get a nice, humble room so you
can work to pay off what you need to pay
off in this interim time and reclaim your self respect
because you're not in a situation where you're feeling respectful
towards yourself because of the people that you're surrounded with. Yeah,
and I think you will feel better getting out of there,
you know, and you will have less judgment towards them
(36:59):
when it's not in your face every single day.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Right.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Absolutely, you would be a very good therapist.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Ah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Making sure that the kids know that you're available to
them and having that conversation with them, even though right
now they kind of like are annoyed with you or
whatever because you're the only one setting any rules. Like,
they're probably gonna be a little fearal for a little
while because you know, mom and dad aren't paying attention.
But like checking in with them, letting them know that
you're there, I think is maybe the best thing that
you can do.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
And be firm.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Listen, be firm with kids. Kids like boundaries, even if
they don't act like it. It works. It always works
to be firm as an adult with children so that
they know where you stand and they're not going to
take advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
You're not going to put up with any bullshit. You
know you're there. You love them, They can come to you.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
It's your love is unconditional, but you're not going to
put up with any sort of behavior.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
Awesome, Thank you so much. I think it's kind of
the kick in the butt that I need, because you know,
you can tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself,
but you know you kind of have to hear it
from an outside source before you can really give yourself
the p.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
It's said with care from the three of us.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
Absolutely, yeah, no, I know that.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yes, I'm sending you lots of love and I'm sure
you'll find a place soon, so keep on trucking.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Thanks Sammy, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That is really one hot mess of a situation, I know.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
And having added this one to their will and their
bank accounts, I'm like, oh geez, what is going on?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Well, bank accounts? What is that about? What I mean?
Those are they on ecstasy? Like what are they thinking?
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Let's I imagine so.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Well.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Our next caller is Laura, and she had a bit
of a traumatic experience, but is wondering how this is
going to affect her daughter. So Laura says, I'm now
thirty seven, but when I was eighteen, I was invited
to a party by an older guy. My friend and
her boyfriend came with, but my interaction with this guy
quickly went south. He pushed me with full force into
(39:01):
a bush on the side of the house where no
one was and jumped on top of me. Even typing this,
it makes me feel so angry. My friend and her
boyfriend thankfully noticed I was gone, came looking for me,
and rustled him off of me. Almost twenty years later,
I live in a small town and he is a
cop here. Seeing him makes me so uncomfortable. I'm married
(39:21):
now and my husband fully knows the whole story and
hates him deeply too. But i have a beautiful young
daughter I'm raising, and I'm so deeply terrified of the
what ifs for her experience with males. How do I
cope with the fear of what could happen? I know
it's not useful or helpful to me at all, but
it's hard not to be so scared.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Laura Hi Kutie esther perel Lisa here today as our
special guest.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Lui lu oh wow Hi.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Okay, So the guy is a police officer in your neighborhood.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
Have you and him actually met after the yes, since
he's yes now as the and do you have a
sense when you meet him that he knows that you
know that he knows?
Speaker 6 (40:04):
Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent. Actually, three or
four weeks ago, my husband's truck got broken into and
we called the police, and he, of course was the
officer to show up, and then my husband knows. But
it was very uncomfortable because I mean, I have zero
trust in him, obviously because of what he did to me. So,
(40:26):
I mean, it just kind of felt like, I don't
know how to put it, but like, no matter what,
he didn't really care as much, you know, because he
knew what I knew, and he had no idea that
I guess he kind of like thought it was a
secret team he and I. I could kind of tell
he didn't think I had told my husband. I could tell,
but and at the time, my husband's not very confrontational,
(40:46):
so I wasn't gonna say anything about it not so
he didn't want to embarrass me.
Speaker 5 (40:50):
But yeah, it was.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
It was very uncomfortable. And then he gave me his
email address too, so I could send video footage of
the guy who got into the truck. So just I
felt like a never ending process because I didn't want
to speak to him or see him ever again.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
But I mean that's impossible in this town. Do you
ever want to have a conversation with him? Do you
feel the need to tell him, you know, I want
this to be clear between us.
Speaker 6 (41:17):
I've thought about that and I don't know if I
I think it would just be for me because he
doesn't seem remorseful, and I can only tell by you know,
how he handled the situation recently, but even at the
time and the person he's been since then towards me,
he doesn't seem like he would ever care, like at all,
(41:38):
it would never affect him.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Okay, then we have a thing. But then you're asking
about your d I think. But when when I listened
to the story, here's what came up to me. You
had good friends who went with you. Yes, yeah, you
had friends who instantly noticed when you were not there,
thank goodness. Yes. So what this tells you is their
situation where you don't go alone. There are situations where
(42:03):
you go with very close friends and you have a
little quick code in advance. If any of us is
absent for more than you know, we go looking. And
you teach that to your daughter. You don't teach fear,
but you teach the need to understand, to have good
judgment and to have situations where, especially if there's going
to be drinking involved or this or that, to never
(42:26):
just be on your own because we need to watch
out for each other. And then later, much later, I fact,
at some point it matters. You just say, you know,
part of why I'm so vigilant is because and I
just want to make sure that you know this never
happens to you, and it's okay to tell. You don't
have to give details, but you can just say, you know,
(42:48):
I once went to a party and this is what happened.
You don't have to see who it is or any
of that, but just to say, my vigilance comes from somewhere,
it is. It has a good intention. I'm not here
to to restrain you and control you, and that's it.
You're part of You will remain vigilant. Sometimes you will
feel hyper vigilant. Sometimes you will just feel reasonably careful.
(43:12):
And sometimes you won't know if you are being too
much of something or too little of something, because once
you have these kind of experiences that take you outside
of the limits, then you don't. Then that's what gets shaken,
is the sense of the container the limits. Where is safety?
Am I being overly careful? Am I being overly casual?
(43:34):
And that is a part of what we stay with
when we have had boundaries infringed upon like that?
Speaker 6 (43:42):
Right, No, that makes sense. I guess they call me
like a helicopter mom. I guess you'd say I'm like
extra worried all the time, and I feel like I'm
constantly on if that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Yes, of course, of course, but you also want to
teach her as best you can to recognize the science,
because if you take over and you become the watchtower,
then you actually don't then she may have underdeveloped skills
that she could develop herself. It's that fine balance that
(44:16):
you want to You want to be careful for her,
but you don't want to take over to the point
where she becomes less capable of being in the world
because you are her flashlight. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
I think that's very sagacious advice. And I also would
just add that, you know, back to him being a
police officer in your community, you don't have to have
him show up if and when you ever need the
police to come to your house again. There's no reason
that you ever have to interact with him again. You
can easily. I know you live in a small town,
but there's no reason that you can't go to the
police station and be very honest. I mean, I know
(44:49):
you probably don't want to start something in a very
small town, but say I don't want him coming to
my house ever again, like this has to you know,
if there's an emergency. I want even in you know
you're not gonna want to do it in the moment
of it urgency, But he doesn't care, just like you
said he didn't care about your car being stolen. There's
no reason you have to sit with your somebody who
assaulted you in that dynamic. You can very clearly go
(45:10):
in there, explain what happened and say I'm not I
don't want this police officer, or you can leave out
the story and just say I don't want this police
officer ever coming to my house again, you know, and
let them be very clear about the fact that in
case of an emergency or anything else that comes up,
that they can't send him there. You know that's not
fair to you, and that's ridiculous. You could press you know,
(45:30):
you could have pressed charges if you wanted to. Obviously
there's a statute of limitations, but you know that is
not okay for him to come to your house and
you have to interact with him as somebody who's going.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
To protect you, Yeah, and retraumatize you. Have you had
any therapy around that experience, specifically, because I can feel
it in your body still even just reading your email.
Speaker 6 (45:49):
Actually, the year after words. I went to my guydecologists
for my appointment, and I know it sounds silly because
I was eighteen at the time, but I always my
mom goes with me, so my mom was there and
he asked in front of my mom even if something
had happened to me physically, so of course then the
conversation got brought up with my mom. So I did
see a counselor after that. But actually here as of lately,
(46:11):
just with stuff going on with my daughter, I got
back into therapy online and it's been very resourceful for
me with everything going on. But here lately we've started
to like dig deeper into the past. So I think now,
especially talking with you guys, I think it would be
a good idea to bring it up.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Absolutely absolutely, yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
And you're going to be a better mom for it also,
you know, dealing with your trauma, getting it out of
your body, being empowered, you know, which is what you
need to be as a mother and as a woman.
Speaker 6 (46:43):
Thank you. I appreciate that, because the most important thing
to me is to make sure I raise her to
be strong and a good woman and that she doesn't
let I hope she doesn't let anything go on with
her like I did.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
I should have.
Speaker 6 (46:57):
I feel like I should have fought back a little
bit more, but I know it wasn't on me, it
was on him.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
But still the situation was.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, but you don't know what you're going to do
in those situations, people are in shock. Don't beat yourself
up for that. You don't know what you're going to
do in a situation, and you know when you're taking
off guard. You can't be responsible for your actions in
that moment, you know, so absolutely, But thank you for
calling in and I hope that was helpful.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Thank you absolutely, it was.
Speaker 6 (47:22):
Thank you so much, and it was a pleasure talking
with you all and meeting you all very much.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
Thanks a Laura, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
By Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be
back with a final question.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Okay, okay, and we're back.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
We are back, Lindsey says dear Chelsea. I don't know
if I should stay married. I've been with my husband
for eight years, married for one and we have two
little kids, two and four. I also have an older stepdaughter.
About seven months ago, I had a very sudden overnight
awakening where I suddenly felt like all the small all
things about my relationship i'd ignored became big issues for me.
(48:04):
For example, my husband doesn't really have any friends. If
we do things socially, I plan or get the invite
and he comes along. He doesn't have a separate social
life at all. I'm very driven. I'm an ambitious person
with lots of goals. I recently asked him what his
goals were for the future, and he didn't have a
single one. Nothing more than what it is now. This
is okay. I think it's just wildly different from me.
(48:26):
When I talk about my goals, he says, oh, you're
just gonna leave me behind one day. I'm scared to
stay small in order to keep the peace at home.
He's a wonderful dad, and he takes care of his
share of things around the house, but as usual, I
do more than fifty percent of the kid's stuff. We
also don't communicate at times. We don't say a single
word before he leaves the house in the morning. He
(48:46):
doesn't ask me questions or engage in things I have
going on. Basically, we're not active participants in each other's lives.
We cohabitat raise kids together, but are not connected. And
I am craving communication. I love to talk and have
deep conversations, and I feel very deprived of that. I've
explained to him how lonely I feel and how unhappy
I am at times. We have couples therapy scheduled, and
(49:08):
I feel heartbroken by the idea of splitting my kids.
I also know there's an issue because I have feelings
for someone else. This is the second person in a
handful of months I have met and felt feelings for.
There's nothing happening there at all. I just feel strongly
for someone else, which feels important in this situation. The
problem seems to be that I'm settling for good and
(49:29):
dreaming of great It's very hard to choose to leave
a good man with a decent job, who's a great dad.
I'm terrified of the dating world and of heartbreak. I
just don't know what to do or how to do it.
I'm really afraid of making a huge mistake. Thanks so
much for reading, Lindsey.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
That seems to be such a recurring theme, right, the
idea that they want something better, but they're also scared
to go get it.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
So you know they are eight years together when you're married,
and my first question is Lindsey, How did you meet
and what drew you to this man? I mean, what's
the origin story? Obviously he would not have said this
when you when you met him, So what drew you
to him? What was it? And where did you come
(50:15):
from before that he was the person that you chose
at that moment. I think that that would give me
a lot of information in terms of where she's landing
at this moment, because often the very things that one's
complaining about are the same things that one found initially attractive.
You know, he was stable, he was a good dad,
(50:37):
he was reliable, he was there for me. And this
may probably come on the heels of I was in
another relationship that was unstable, that was not reliable. You know,
there's a yin yang in our lives about this. So
this is the first thing. And then I have a
sense that it may be a coincidence that the seven
months ago when this lady woke up, this woman woke up,
(51:01):
is also the seven months when she met this new
person that she has feelings for. You know, these things
are often well timed, and so at this moment, what
are these new feelings or at these feelings that have
taken on a new intensity because you are flirting in
your mind with the idea of another person. And then
(51:21):
this notion that you're going to capos therapy but you
hate to break up your family. You're not going to
copos therapy to break up your family, but you may
be going to cople therape to understand that the man
you are with now is the man you've always been with,
and that this is about also coming to terms with
your choice. No, he may not be any mootor he
may be more on a spectrum more. He may be
(51:43):
not a person who has great ambitions, but he is
a person who will support your ambitions, and that is
a perfectly valuable platform as well. He will be there
so that you can go out into the world and
he will accompany you, and he won't argue where you
ask him to come. You may want someone who has
their own life and their own initiatives and all of that.
(52:05):
Did he have them when you met? Did he forego
them in order to solidify his connection with It's like
there's a few pieces of information here that would help
say this is the direction or that this is not
about I'm willing to let go of good for great
is I don't think that this is a question about
how can I optimize and maximize my life. This is
(52:27):
fundamentally about you're coming to terms with the choice you
made that you may or may not have acknowledged to
yourself from day one.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
You know, I think a lot of people feel this way.
Be careful what you wish for. Right You could be
in a relationship with somebody who has a million things
going on, and then you could feel ignored and invisible
and that.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
You're not getting enough from that person.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
So it's like there is this feeling of the grass
is always greener as there are like with couples, you
know they get to this.
Speaker 4 (52:52):
It took my sentence away. I was going to go there,
and I decided to wait. But yes, it's like you
know you when you are with someone who is very
active and has a whole life, the fault line is
you know you're not available for me. When you are
with a person who is available for you but doesn't
have many other things, then it's you know you're too
(53:13):
dependent on me. In both cases, the question is less
about this man and more about this woman and the
nature of her relationship to him, and this idea that
she has to make herself small in order to maintain
the peace. No, No, he's not. Probably he's maybe not
asking that either. If you say, you know, if I
lift my boat, it lifts all boats. And we are
(53:36):
going on this together. And what I get from you
is the support for my ambitions. That's what matters, not
does he have his own? You know? What you want
is to know what he does with yours? Is he
threatened by it? When he says you made when day
leave me? Is because you keep telling him that he's
a bum and you don't really find him interesting or
(53:56):
attractive because he doesn't have anything pulling him. What's the
dialogue that we don't hear here is what I would
like to understand. And one last thing I would add
maybe is sometimes your relationship is the source of the nurturance,
of the happiness of the engagement. But sometimes the relationship
is more of a scaffolding, and the scaffolding that makes
(54:20):
it available for you to go into the world and
to get your food and your nourishment and your engagements
and your ambitions met there. And those are two viable models.
It may be that in this instance what's between the
two of you is less about the intimacy of the
connection as between what this relationship gives to each of
(54:44):
you makes possible for both of you in life. And
that is also a respectable choice, just so you know,
may not be the one she chooses to make, but
it is a very common choice. It just is often
not named like this, but it is a very clear decision.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
And I also would add looking at counseling as an opportunity,
not as a failure, like you're going to go to
counseling and there's a huge opportunity for growth there between
you and your partner, reconnecting and finding rediscovering each other
in a way that you had it before. It's an
opportunity for your partner to gain a better understanding of
(55:22):
what you're feeling and how you're feeling and how you're
feeling seen and what you.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
Want from him.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
And if at the end of all of that, you
guys don't get together and get stronger, then you have
a very kind of clear path forward that it's not what.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
You're looking for.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
You know, if you're distracted by other people during your marriage,
I don't think that's an uncommon theme. I think it's
a matter of is that distraction like a yearning to
be out of your marriage or is it simply a distraction.
I mean, it's very clear, like as you were reading
this letter that you were going to mention you had
a crush on somebody at some point.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
Because that's what was you know, we've asked.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
Both of us were like, ah, yeah, but just look
at counseling is huge. It's a huge opportunity for growth
within yourself, within your marriage, and for your partner. So
look at everything as an advantage. The more knowledge you have,
the better you are making a decision. And if your
marriage can survive this, then you're going to be stronger
for it. And if you do decide to split, then
that's okay too. Then you can go pursue all.
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Of these things you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Hopefully you can pursue them within your marriage by just
having a better line of communication and understanding of each other.
Speaker 4 (56:28):
I think I would add another piece to it as well, Chelseae,
is that what I'm not hearing enough is a basic
appreciation for the man, for the person, for what he represents,
not for what he does, not for the fifty percent,
but for who he is, for the love he brings,
for the care, the attention, the reliability. All these things
(56:48):
are actually very big things if your relationship will disintegrate
if it becomes a relationship where two people are basically
criticizing each other and pointing only at the shortcomings and
the failures and the gaps rather than and take for
granted what is and only highlight what's missing. And that
piece is something I hope you develop in and cultivating
(57:12):
the couple's therapy and in you know, people want to
know that they matter, that they mean something, that they're there,
and that their presence is appreciated and not that their
presence is evaluated and measured.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yeah, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
Okay, well, good luck with that situation and thank you
as Stair. So your course on conflict, how can people
sign up for that?
Speaker 4 (57:33):
Rate to the website Esteraparil dot com. Is the couple
of course. It's called Turning Conflict into Connection. Where should
we begin? You all know it's the podcast. It's on
Apple and on vox and anywhere you listen to your
podcasts with the subscription on Apple, and it is basically this,
it's live couples Therapy. It's what we've been doing together,
(57:55):
is the podcast. It's live relationship therapy with individuals and
couples where you fly on the wall listening in on
the sessions of others and where should we begin the game.
It's also on my website and on Amazon, And that's
how do you actually It's the tool for communication to
establish connection, curiosity, trust, playfulness in your relationships by having
(58:19):
very beautiful questions that lead to storytelling, not to answers,
but to storytelling, because relationships are stories.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Wonderful.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
Your husband must be like he must lose any sort
of argument at any time that you guys have had.
I mean, how can you be married to someone like
you and stay at your ground?
Speaker 1 (58:36):
He must have to defer to you on everything. It's
the ultimate position to be in, you.
Speaker 4 (58:40):
Think you think for decades later? No, no, no, I
have someone who but I'll tell you you goes a
long way as you know. Yeah, okay, so one way
to deflate me completely is to make me laugh. That
quite me?
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Ye, that works for me as well for my future lovers. Anyway,
thank you Snare for being on our podcast today as pleasure.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (59:07):
Thank you Bothay take care theare Chelsea. Do you have
some new dates for us? Oh?
Speaker 1 (59:14):
You know, I do you know, I do. I have
a lot of We added lots.
Speaker 2 (59:18):
Of Canadian cities, Canadians, I'm coming.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
We added about fifteen new tour dates.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
I'm coming to Denver again, Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Richmond, Virginia,
Santa Rosa, California, Gary and Deanna, Baltimore, Verona, New York,
and about seven dates in Canada. So go to Chelseahandler
dot com. I am performing everywhere. I will be on
tour all for the rest of the year and through December,
(59:49):
and then next year I'm going to be touring all year.
Speaker 1 (59:52):
So come and get it, you guys. It's good times and.
Speaker 2 (59:55):
It's a very much needed reprieve from all the fucking
madness that's going on in this world.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
So I'm here to bring joy and sunshine.
Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Do you have a.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
Holiday themed question for Chelsea? Please send us all the
questions you need answered about crazy family get togethers, arguing
over which Cranberry sauce recipe to us, and all your
holiday drama. Just send your questions to Dear Chelsea podcast
at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
by Brad Dickard, executive producer Catherine Law and be sure
(01:00:26):
to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com
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