Women Without Kids with Ruby Warrington

Author Ruby Warrington joins Chelsea to talk about choosing not to procreate, why drinking less changed her life, and the joys of dying alone.  Then: A sometimes-sober AA member wrestles with a sober reset.  A Jersey girl navigates friendships as the rest of her girl-group has kids.  And a mom of two wonders why her bestie avoids her boys.

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Find Ruby’s books here!

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Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail]

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Executive Producer Catherine Law

Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert

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The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi Catherine, Oh Hi Chelsea. Oh my god, I would
a whirlwind. I love New York City so much. I
just don't know if I can leave here. I mean,
I'm homeless right now anyway, So my house in la
is still not ready, even though I'm going back there
on Monday. I did my first two shows back at
the Beacon in New York City, and they weren't fucking epic.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
In the middle of a river of water, right.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Oh my god. Yeah, there was a huge storm on
the first show I had Friday night. They were like,
do you want to cancel? And I was like, I
don't know. Once you cancel a show, it triggers so
much else. So I was like, there's going to end
up being more people that show up than people who
can't come, you know. So we decided to just pull
the trigger and do the show and it was awesome,
and then Saturday Night's show was even more awesome. And

(00:42):
I'm just so happy to be back on tour. I
feel so rested. I feel like I had the vacation
of a lifetime, a summer of a lifetime. I Mean,
I just can't believe how fucking great my life is.
And I'm just so grateful that I have so many
people and fans that have given me this life because
I just am in enjoying myself to the n degree.

(01:02):
And I also feel like it's just time for me
to move to New York City.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
You know what I mean, Liz, I have a second
home there.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
I know, I never lived in New York City. I'm
from New Jersey. I think it's time. And my business
managers I told them, I go, I think I might
want to move to New York soon, and they were like,
your house in LA is not even done yet. And
I was like, well, we're going to have to rent
that out to someone or do something. But I'm just
much more stimulated here and I just love it. Last night,

(01:28):
I was just out at this simple restaurant with like
five girlfriends, and I'm like, this is awesome. This is
what I want my life to be like. I don't
want to be in LA going to sleep at eight
o'clock every night like an elderly woman. I want to
live it up. It's time.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, and you have a lot of friends in New
York too, so it's like pop by see people.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
I like making new friends too. I make friends wherever
I go. I mean, I am just on fire with
my new friendships, my old friendships and new friendships. But
that's the one and great thing about traveling too and
bopping around. There's so many people to meet and interesting
people who add and contribute to your life and joyfulness
and experience and point of view, and it's just all

(02:06):
so interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, especially with as many places as you went this summer,
I'm sure you got lots of different experiences.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, I dosed a lot of people capting this summer.
I gave a lot of people microdosing of whatever I
had excellent. I love, especially strangers. There was this old
couple walking outside my house in MAYORCA, like a German couple,
not old but older, and they were holding hands and
we started talking. I don't know why, and they're like,

(02:33):
it's our anniversary, our thirtieth anniversary. And I was like,
oh my god, you guys should take some microdose of LSD,
Like I have a whole sheet of it, and you
guys should do that. And they both looked at each
other and they're like, we will. I go take one
of my kayaks, take it out and put it, go
right out there and go have a good night. I
go just have fun with each other. And they came
back four hours later. I was kind of like, are

(02:53):
they still out there? And they came out and they
left the kayak and they left this little note on
the kayak and it was just the cutest thing. And
so I just want to give drugs to everybody. And
I know not everybody can do drugs, so I wanted
to say that it's not for everybody, but there is
something for almost everybody.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
And sometimes it's kayaking on LSD.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, that's my favorite activity in my ARCHI I like
to get up. One night, I got up from dinner.
It was like nine thirty. I was like, I took
my Mango dakery and I ran outside. I was like,
it's time to get on a paddle board. And I
went because if the water is because we live in
this port and it's like I don't know who we are.
I'm alone, a single woman. I live there with all
the men that I have to hire to take care

(03:34):
of me, which is also a great irony in my life.
And I can go out there and paddle you know,
it's so still and placid at night, and just going
out there with my cocktail and my paddle board or
my kayak. I'm like, I just look up at the
stars and I'm like, oh God, I believe in you.
I believe in you now. Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Do to you.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, you've been there, you know. I'm just trying to
figure out if it's too late to go to Antarctica.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
You've been everywhere else.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I know, I know, but it just feels like every
time I have an opportunity to go there, it just
doesn't seem like it's going to be I hate to
say this, but luxurious. Like I want to be on
a comfortable boat, and all these boats are like it's
like an exploration and I'm not an explorer.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
No, those are some of the choppiest seas on the planet.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
I don't have a problem with that. I have a
problem with being comfortable, Like I want to be on
a yacht, not an exploration boat, because they're bare bones
and then you're living basically like sleeping on cement like
a Maxi pad on top of it.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Yeah, you have to have like an ice break.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
I'm like, do I care that much? Like I'd like
to go, Oh god, I have these bruises on the
back of my neck because Dennis Colonello, who has two
meatballs for hands. My chiropractor, but he doesn't he doesn't
crack me. He got into my neck so deeply yesterday
because I have so much tension in my neck for
my I have some slip disc in my neck and

(05:00):
and I was washing my hair this morning in the
shower and I was like ah ah, And then I
texted him, I said, you know, you assaulted me.

Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yesterday in your bruise.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
But he's like that he's happy that he hurt me,
because that's his kind of personality.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Chiropractors, Okay, I feel like they it's not a popular profession.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
They're all a little.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Weird, but like I feel like at some point they
go two different directions. There's okay, i'll crack your back,
make you feel better whatever, and the other direction they
just go so wooo.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
It's like naughty.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, he's pretty woo woo. But he doesn't ever crack me.
He just realigns me. And it's very painful because I
have a situation where I hold all my tension in
my chest and neck like, so he gets in there.
I mean he literally is like digging into my boobs.
He puts a pad there yea to like try and
pretend that it's not you know what it is in you,

(05:50):
which is him basically feeling me up. So shout out
to Dennis Colonello.

Speaker 4 (05:54):
Thanks Ennis.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
But I have a great chiropractor and whistler who cracks
me because when I ski, my ribs pop out all
the time, like this right ram bobbys pops out, and
he cracks me all the time. His name is Keith,
and he's a fucking awesome.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
I bet he gets a lot of business.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Oh not only does I probably carry him through the
whole year, because when my family comes up, we have
Keith come every night at six before dinner, and everyone
lines up and sits around and watches each other get cracked.
He's like, God, I feel like I'm in like a theater.
He goes, I can't, I'm performing for all of these people.
I'm like, yeah, I know, but it's so good when
you're out of whack to get cracked. Oh I love

(06:30):
it when it rings through your whole body. I never
cracked my neck because women there's danger in women cracking
their neck really anyone, but more so for women. But
I like sometimes for my hips to get adjusted because
they get out of whack, you know. But yeah, one
night we were all this is years ago, my whole
family was like over Christmas, we're all up in Whistler
and we're all so stoned. Everyone is as high as

(06:52):
a kite, and so we were all just like watching him.
We set him up in the living room and everyone's
just like around watching him, drinking and just like staring
at him. And I was like, God, he must think
we are a one hot mess of a family. Did
you explain why?

Speaker 4 (07:07):
Well, now, who cares?

Speaker 1 (07:09):
You know what I mean? Who cares?

Speaker 4 (07:10):
He's like these guys we're not.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, it's better to be quiet and high than to
be loud and obnoxious. Yeah, that's what I tell myself. Anyway,
I saw Barry Manilow on my flight yesterday.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
You did, Yeah, how's he looking?

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Exactly the same, exactly the same. I was like, oh,
you look like it's almost like he's frozen in time.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
And I'm glad Barry Mallows did great.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, he seems to be thriving. Maybe he was lying around, Yeah,
lying around he was. He walked to the bathroom all
by himself. That's when I noticed him.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
Did you know al Pacino as.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Having a baby, a baby. I'm so sick of all
of this grossness.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
And there's another one. It's al Pacino and de Niro.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yes, yeah, how fun for that baby.

Speaker 4 (07:56):
One of them is eighty three.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
I'm like, you would be one hundred and one when
your kid graduated high school. If I'm doing my math correctly.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Well, you don't need to make the math because he
won't be there, so don't worry about it. It's really gross.
Rupert Murdoch has seven children or six or they all.
Elon Musk has like fourteen.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Elon Musk's dad just had a baby with his stepdaughter.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
What.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, Elon Musk's dad had a baby with his step
daughter and.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
It's a secret child. But it came out like.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Well, that explains a little bit about Elon.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
Musk, I know, like it's got a little weird, weird
shit going on.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Well that family.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, yeah, actually I think they just had their second
child together. I think that's what just came out recently.
It's pretty on that note.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
What do you think is worse a stepdaughter or your
adopted daughter Like Woody Allen and his daughter Sunny, they
just keep having babies, in my opinion, to prove that
they were really meant to be all along. Meanwhile you're like, no, no,
you were meant not.

Speaker 5 (08:55):
To be No.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Our next guest, I've been following on social media for
a while because she is an advocate for not having
children as well. I don't know if you know that
about me, but I don't want children, So I've been
following her and then I saw I got her book,
which was called Women Without Kids, and I thought, hm,
we may have something to talk about. Please welcome Ruby Warrington.

(09:17):
Good morning, good afternoon. Hi, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Point us, no chairs.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
I am in Miami.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Oh you are?

Speaker 6 (09:27):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Are you hanging out with Ron DeSantis?

Speaker 6 (09:30):
Absolutely?

Speaker 5 (09:30):
He invited me for dinner this weekend.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Oh that's fun. I hope there's a bunch of drag
queens and transgender people there totally so that they can
enjoy his presence as well.

Speaker 6 (09:38):
Thanks so much for having me on, guys. I'm so excited.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yes are we?

Speaker 1 (09:42):
As are we? I received your book Women Without Kids,
and obviously we have that in common.

Speaker 6 (09:48):
We do.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
So talk to us. Talk to us about how you
came to that decision. Talk to us about the book,
about everything, your stance on being child free.

Speaker 5 (09:58):
Well, I think that I was born this way. Honestly,
That's kind of where I've landed now. I've actually recently
started using the term a reproductive to describe how I
feel about having children, kind of like asexual, as in
like no desire to engage with the reproductive element of
my sexuality. Right, That's a term that I only came

(10:18):
up with more recently. But honestly, I feel like I
was born this way, you know, I just never had
a desire to have a child. This was something that
was questioned intensely throughout my twenties and thirties, to the
extent that I questioned it in myself, like why don't
I want to do this thing? Am I sure? I
don't want to do this thing? Will I regret not
doing this thing? And then I got to my early

(10:40):
forties and I honestly was looking ahead to menopause, and
I realized I was quite excited actually about what might
lie on the other side of this kind of monthly
hormonal roller coaster. And within that realized, no, I have
no regrets about not having had a child. There is
not one minute of panic kind of sounding in my
book body at this moment, like this was always the

(11:02):
right path for me. And how fortunate I am to
have been born in a country and in an era
where I actually got to make the choice not to
have a child, and I actually got to really live
true to myself, you know. And so I wanted to
write this book because it felt like the path of
non motherhood, no matter how a person finds themselves, there

(11:23):
is still so stigmatized. It's still seen as so other,
so unusual. People get so many questions about it. And
actually the statistics will show that women without kids are
rising in numbers dramatically all around the world and happier
and often happier and richer, richer.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
There was a study that came out that said men
who are married are the happiest men, women who are
single are the happiest women.

Speaker 5 (11:52):
Right, there are all of these kind of contradictions between
our actual lived experiences as women without kids and what
the society tells us our life are supposed to be. Like,
so I wanted to write the book to first and
foremost just validate the path of non motherhood, like again,
no matter whether it's by choice, by circumstance, not by choice.
Because a lot of people who've tried and failed to

(12:12):
have kids even there failed right like they see themselves
or they're often told that, like you just you failed
at this important thing, this most important thing. But beyond that,
you know, the statistics will show that the birth rate
is actually decreasing massively in every single country around the world.
The number one reason this is happening is because women
are getting more access to education, more access to financial freedom,

(12:36):
and more empowerment basically. And yet there are plenty of
forces who do not see this as a good thing,
who would really prefer for women to continue having lots
of children, to keep boosting the birth rate and essentially
keep our economy kind of ticking on as it is.
And a lot of the time, the quote unquote blame
for the falling birth rates is put very squarely at

(12:57):
the feet of silly, selfish women who are choosing to
do other things with their lives then have kids. And
so it just felt like this really juicy area to
dive into in book format.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
And what has the response been for you with other women?

Speaker 5 (13:12):
I've been getting just countless DM, so many women who
reflect back to me what I so often felt I
thought I was the only one. Thank you, so much
for showing me that I'm not a weirder, I'm not
a freak. I haven't failed. Thank you for giving me
so many different ways to think about why I don't
want to be a mother, or even why I'm questioning
if that is right for me. So just a real

(13:33):
sense of solidarity and support and people feeling seen and
understood when they're reading the book. Of course, there has
also been you know, the occasional this book is poison,
you ridiculous, selfish person. You're going to regret this when
you're old, Like I kind of expected. I actually expected
more of those sorts of comments actually, but yeah, there

(13:53):
have been a few of those as well.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
I get a lot of backlash, a lot of backlash
from men, conservative men. While I live in a Marria,
so we have you know, this is a hot mess
situation and a hot button topic here because men would
like to force us to have children here in this country.
So the backlash from women mostly it's supportive from women
and especially mothers are like, yeah, to each his own,
you know, why would you ever force this on somebody else?

(14:17):
But when I do get these messages from mothers going
you're such a sad person or they comment on my posts.
You're such a sad person, Chelsea. You're so sad and
you're just covering it up with humor, and you're gonna
be miserable. You're gonna die alone. I'm like, I hope
I do die alone. I don't want to die with
a bunch of other people. What are you talking about?
You're gonna die alone? You think the reason to have

(14:39):
a child is so that you don't die alone. I
don't want anyone dealing with my death. I want to
be shut and just put down or whatever. Like if
I'm sick, shoot me and bury me, or actually light
me on fire and cremate me, whatever's best for the environment,
because I think cremating is bad. Now they can liquefy
your body I heard recently, right, But anyway, those aren't

(14:59):
the reasons. And to speak to the main issue that
everyone brings up, which is in a more loving way,
is you're going to miss out on the most beautiful
love of your life. It is the most transcendent. You
can't describe how somebody feels when they give birth to
a baby and the love that they feel. Of course
I believe that to be true, but I'm okay with that,

(15:21):
and if I'm okay with missing out on that kind
of love. Just like some people will never have pets,
some people will never experience that kind of love. And
that's not the same as a kid, but for some people,
that's even better than a kid. The most common thing
that I hear among mothers is no one said it
was going to be this hard. No one said it
was going to be this hard.

Speaker 5 (15:40):
I hear that all the time, and I'm like, are
you kidding me? Literally, everyone always talks about how it is.

Speaker 6 (15:44):
All I ever hear is this is really hard, This
is so hard.

Speaker 5 (15:47):
And then everyone I know who becomes a mom is like,
no one tells you how hard this is going to be.
I'm like, what if you've been what channel have you
been listening?

Speaker 1 (15:54):
I think there is an overwhelming chorus of people talking
about how beautiful it is, how one wonderful it is.
They don't say, hey, you're going to be up for
the first six months of their lives fifteen times a
night or whatever it is three times a night. I
guess I'm exaggerating breastfeeding, or that you're beholden that you
have no life for six months. People talk about it,
but the overwhelming chorus is one of positivity rather than

(16:16):
of negativity.

Speaker 5 (16:17):
I think, and I do actually think that the physical experience.
You can read all that stuff and you can hear
about it, but then the physical experience and I think,
actually what a lot of women find really hard, especially
women who have grown up with a degree of agency
and freedom to kind of live our lives on our
own terms thanks to the different waves of the feminist movement,
becoming a mother means say goodbye to all of that.

(16:38):
So it kind of means a loss. It actually means
a loss of privilege in a way. If freedom, autonomy,
self authorship, bodily sovereignty, these are privileges which have been
fought for by the feminist movement. Women of Gen X
Millennials gen zs were the first generations of women to
really kind of experience that in our lives, and so
of course, becoming a mother means a loss of so

(16:59):
many of those privileges, privilege which used to be only
applied to men. And so I think that it's actually
maybe even harder to weigh up the kind of sacrifices
and responsibilities of becoming a mother against the kind of
freedoms that we now have the opportunity to go after
in our lives. So I think that's something that when
I get that kind of feedback, it often does feel

(17:20):
like a projection. I think that can be quite a
envy in those kind of comments as well. Maybe if
someone is feeling a bit like I don't enjoy this
nearly as much as I should do, or the love
actually doesn't make up for all the sacrifices, but they're
not allowed to say.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
That, Or you don't feel the love that everyone's telling
you you're going to feel, you don't feel that you
experience a terrible case of postpartum, or you don't feel
that connection to your baby that everyone tells you you're
supposed to feel, and then you feel like something's wrong
with you, and then you feel like it's a whole
game of shame. Also, parenting, you feel like you never
know that you're doing the right thing. I mean, this
is the feedback I've heard and books I've read, like

(17:57):
you never know what you're doing, you know if if
you're doing the right thing, and the idea that every
woman is supposed to have a baby isn't taking into
account the baby you're supposed to have a baby, and
then and then the baby suffers because you're not prepared
or interested in the way that like, it is such
a thoughtful process to come to the conclusion that it's
not for you. It should be such a thoughtful process
to come to the conclusion that it is. There are

(18:19):
so many women that talk about I don't know if
I want one, but I'm gonna freeze my eggs and
I don't know, I don't know. It's like, if you
don't know, then maybe you don't. You don't, then you
shouldn't have a kid. You have to be one hundred
and fifty percent on board with having a child, not
be like I have these eggs, I guess you know
what I'm gonna I'm gonna be forty. I'm gonna just try.

(18:41):
I think that is just so such a mistake for
so many people.

Speaker 5 (18:45):
And that's why I wanted to write this book to
say it's it's different, and it's equally valid not to
be a parent, because that doorway has been so closed off,
because it's been so stigmatized, Like if you don't become
a parent, especially actually if you don't become a mother,
because I don't think supplies to men in the same way.
If you don't become a mother, you have missed out.
You will be unfulfilled, you are cold heartless. You are

(19:06):
going to miss out on this most transcendent, most important,
deepest love that you can ever feel. You're going to
regret it, and you will die lonely, destitute and alone.
And so when all of that stigma exists, that door
to non motherhood is closed off. So for anyone who's
questioning it, even if they have really serious doubts about
their parental readiness, like their capacity to be a parent,

(19:29):
it's going to be so much easier just to go, Ah,
I guess I'll just do it anyway, or I guess
I'll just go along with it, because I guess I
don't want to be labeled with all of that stuff,
or I don't want to take the risk on, you know,
being this lonely old spinster. Although, like you say, Chelsea,
ultimately we all die alone, right, no one's going with us,
No one's like holding our hand crossing us over to
the other side. And there's also no guarantee that our

(19:51):
kids are going to be that our kids could well die.

Speaker 6 (19:53):
Before we do.

Speaker 5 (19:54):
And also statistically, this was so sad when I read this.
Sixty percent of people living in old people's homes don't
receive any visitors. There's no guarantee you're going to have
the kind of relationship with your kids where you want
them all to be, or they all want to be
at your bedside, kind of like seeing you off, you know,
onto the next dimension. So part of the point of
the book, and I've had so many moms read it

(20:15):
and actually feel really grateful or expressible gratitude for making
them feel less like defectible, less like they've failed, if
they're actually not enjoying being a mum, or if they
actually sometimes want to still be the woman they are
without their kids, you know. But a big part of
the book was just about saying, Hey, this is the
most important decision you can ever make. It's one of

(20:36):
the only decisions you can't unmake. So know yourself, know
your capacity, know your choices, and act accordingly.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
No your partner, and know whether or not I just
was talking to a girlfriend last night. She has three kids,
she's in an unhappy marriage, she's been married for almost
twenty years, and she's stuck. She's getting ready to make
a move, but she has stayed in this unhappiness because
of her children, And that in it of itself, is like, Hello,

(21:07):
you don't know what the commitment is until you have
those children. And then so many women find themselves in
a situation where it's not a fifty to fifty parenting situation,
where the women are fucking doing everything, and not only
are the men not contributing in an equal manner, they
don't even appreciate all the work that their wife has
done to raise these children until they separate and then realize,

(21:29):
oh shit, oh fuck. I mean, I can't tell you
how many of my girlfriends have left their husbands who
didn't appreciate them, didn't value what they did in their
child's lives. Now they're divorced and they have no fucking
idea what to do with these kids because they've never
had to do it. And so there's that element on
top of it. So not only can children, you know,
trap you into being a parent, which is the idea,

(21:51):
you can get trapped in other ways by being a parent,
which you're not even thinking about. You're not thinking your
husband's not going to be a good father or a
good husband or whatever. So there's just there's so much
landscape to actually consider before making that decision. I know,
when you have a husband, I mean, then there's women
who have children to save their marriages, which is the
dumbest thing you could possibly do. I had a girlfriend
once to say, like, if you have problems in your marriage,

(22:12):
children will only intensify those problems. They're not going to
solve your problem.

Speaker 5 (22:17):
Because children just add stress. They add financial stress, they
add stress in terms of your time, stress in terms
of the equality balance in the marriage. Like, yeah, there's
going to be ideally like some fun times and a
lot of love, but what you're guaranteed is actually quite
a lot of stress. And one thing I realized about
myself is that I have quite a low capacity for stress.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
I also have a low capacity for stress.

Speaker 6 (22:36):
I would like to say I am low capacity for stress.

Speaker 5 (22:39):
I'm like I can get really easily overwhelmed, Like if
I have too many things in my calendar, I spin out.
I don't know if it's ADHD or what. I haven't
ever had a diagnosis like that, but I spin out
really quickly, and I get very overwhelmed with deadlines and
having to kind of switch hats too many times during
a day, and that's basically parenthood. From what I can see,
parenthood is going from one thing to the other, with

(22:59):
multiple different people going through different situations in each day. So,
like knowing about myself, how overwhelmed I get with that
kind of lifestyle. I know that parenthood would likely not
bring out the best side of me, let's say, and
that that stress would then be transferred to my kids
and it just would be kind of a shit show.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
So I agree with that statement. It would not bring
out the best side of me.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
Such a good way to put it.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
I also want to just say, this is a conversation
about child free women, and you know, and obviously anyone
who follows me on Instagram knows how I make these
PSAs about, you know, the wonders and joys of a
child free existence. Nothing I do is to shame women
for having children, And what I'm trying to do is
celebrate women who choose not to have children because they

(23:42):
don't have enough representation. Nobody is telling women, yes, you
can be whatever you want. I mean, there are some,
but that's not the overarching theme in the society we
live in. It's when are you getting married and when
are you having children. So with the joy and experiences
that I've had in my life without having to done
either of those things, I feel it is my purpose

(24:05):
to represent to the women who have either chosen not
to have children or haven't been able to have children,
that there is joyfulness and happiness to be found in
a panoply of other ways in our society and in life.
So I want to make sure women know that, you know,
if you want to have a child, of course, go
have a baby. I'm not mad at you. I want

(24:27):
everyone to feel empowered, every woman to know that the
decision is yours to make, and if you don't choose
to have children, there is nothing unvaluable about you. And
on that note, we are going to take a quick
break and we'll be right back. And we are back

(24:47):
with Ruby Warrington, author of Women Without Kids. Oh Ruby,
also sober Curious? What the fuck? What is that curious about? Sobriety?

Speaker 6 (24:57):
Yes, so sober Curious.

Speaker 5 (24:58):
This is my last book.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
So.

Speaker 5 (25:00):
I had always been an enthusiastic social drinker, shall we say,
And I got to my mid thirties and I started
getting the feeling that alcohol might actually be a cause
of some of the anxiety and depression and difficulties that
I was experiencing at the time, But my drinking didn't
really look like problem drinking. It didn't look like alcoholic drinking.
I went to a couple of AA meetings, didn't really

(25:21):
see my story reflected there. But I knew that I
wanted to make a change, and so I came up
with this term sober curious that was kind of less judgmental,
a bit more open minded, and would give me permission
to just ask some of my questions about alcohol, like
am I drinking too much? How much is too much?
Why is there so much pressure to drink? Why are
there so few decent alcohol free options on every menu everywhere?

(25:46):
Like all of these questions, right, And so that became
a bit of a movement in a way. I started
hosting events in New York which were immediately hugely popular,
and then I had a book on the subject come
out at the very end of twenty eighteen. And that
term has really taken and I think it's been embraced
by a lot of normal social drinkers who've had maybe
one too many horrific hangovers and actually really want to

(26:07):
make a change to their drinking. But without having to
give themselves the label of I'm an alcoholic or subscribe
to a kind of a program for recovery. You know,
but so you drink, I don't anymore. And I now
have got to a place where alcohol actually just doesn't
I just don't enjoy it at all. And this has
been over like ten years of experimentation and questioning and

(26:28):
experiencing longer and longer periods of abstinence, trying it in
certain situations, and just getting to a point where I'm like, actually, no,
it just makes me feel shit, Like even if I
get a few minutes of pleasure, which now actually feels
more like just numbness, the after effects are typically just
so horrible, even just from a glass of wine, like
my sleep is really badly impacted, my anxieties up, Like

(26:50):
it's just I don't enjoy it. But I've got there
from a place of choice, Like I've got there because
I decided that's not right for me, and I don't
want that in my life anymore, not because I in
a program that was telling me I was an alcoholic
and that if I ever picked up another drink, I
was gonna die. Basically, so it's just a more forgiving
more open ended approach to addressing or drinking by no

(27:11):
means is everyone who gets sober curious completely abstinent from alcohol,
but it's really for you might have heard the term
great area drinkers some people, people who kind of fall
in between just like can take it or leave it
and never really think about it to more kind of
like extreme alcoholism. There's a lot of people in that
great area drinking category who like abuse alcohol sometimes, who

(27:32):
sometimes can't control themselves, who sometimes drink more than they
know is good for them, and so the sober curious
approach really appeals to them.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
I think as you get older too, I guess maybe
if you're not an addict. I don't know. As I
get older, like I like to drink, but at a
certain point it's not fun. Like I don't like to
be drunk like I used to, right, I like to
be a bused. I don't like to be drunk. So
at a certain age you just kind of like, you know,
like I'll have a drink before I go on stage,
and then when I get off, it's like I don't
want to have another drink, you know what I mean.

(28:00):
Then I want to like have an edible or something
my whole physiological response to alcohol has changed. But I
guess that's probably not fair to say, because I probably
am not an addict. And so if you're listening and
you're like, well, wait that, I know it's different for everybody,
So that doesn't naturally happen as you get older. Some
people who are addicted to alcohol, it could get worse

(28:23):
as you get older, and then you know, it just
continues to get worse, which is more typical. I would say, right, okay, Catherine.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well with that, let's jump to our first caller, who
is sort of on this journey of sobriety. She may
be a little bit more on the spectrum of needing
to be a sober person, So just going into it
with that in mind. But Ashley says, I'm a forty
one year old nutrition counselor, lesbian and self proclaimed eternal

(28:52):
student that has been in recovery from alcohol for the
last six years. About seventy percent of that time I've
been able to say sober. A relapse is almost always
triggered by overwhelm or burnout, and never for a good time.
When I'm in captain recovery mode, I dive into meetings documentaries, books, workshops, retreats, podcasts,

(29:12):
and any and all things regarding neuroscience and addiction. I've
taught recovery groups, I've led meetings. I've recently put myself
on antibuse. I feel it's important to add I do
not adhere to any higher power. There has been much
lost and much put at risk due to this constant
tug of war. I've lost a special partner and bailed
on some major life events, weddings, funerals, even Chelsea's Netflix

(29:35):
special taping here in Nashville. Because I put myself into
a treatment center. I gave the tickets away to some
very happy sober friends. I'm just got sick over it all.
Visiting California a while back, a friend of three decades
said to me, out of the blue, Ashley, you've lost
your fight.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (29:52):
That really hit me more than any therapy session I suppose.
I'm writing to you now for more of the same.
I'd love to get your take, respectfully, Ashley.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Hi, Ashley, Hi, Ashley O.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Hi.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
This is our special guest, Ruby Warrington. Today. She wrote
the book Sober Curious and also Women with our Kids.
But we're talking about sobriety for this.

Speaker 7 (30:12):
Car excellent familiar?

Speaker 5 (30:14):
Yes, oh good, well thanks for your No, it sounds familiar.
And what I mean is I've heard this from many
individuals like this is it's a good It's a roller coaster, right,
it can take us in so many different directions, and
just when we feel like we're really getting ahead of it,
there it comes here it is again, and I'm back
here again? And how did I get back here again?
And I know how frustrating and tiring and disheartening that

(30:38):
can be. I mean, I think there was one thing
in your letter that really really stood out to me,
and this is something that the sober Curious approach is
really very much about, and so many recovery programs too.
But when you said that you're drinking or your relapses
are triggered always by getting to a place of despair, overwhelmed,
just you know, doing too much stress, anxiety, etc. That's

(31:00):
such such useful information, it seems to me.

Speaker 6 (31:04):
And it seems like you do yoga.

Speaker 5 (31:06):
You're you know, you're obviously looking after your mental health
and well being as well, but really like being very
focused on that piece, like what are the life situations
and the circumstances that typically bring me into that place
of overwhelm where I know I'm going to be vulnerable
then and reach for that familiar medicator in those circumstances
that to me would be the really key thing to

(31:26):
be working on and looking at, literally, what are the
situations that bring me to that place, and how can
I work on ensuring that I encounter as few of
those situations and put myself in as few risky situations
with alcohol therefore as possible, which obviously is sometimes easier
said than done, because a lot of those stresses can

(31:47):
be external things that we don't have much control over.

Speaker 7 (31:51):
When I wrote that letter, I was I was in
a state of despair. I was two weeks sober, and
now I realized that I was in the beginning of
a mid life crisis. This month life crisis. I was
in a very antidonic state. I was joyless. And what
I've had to do is really be isolative and sort
of create this crystalis around me currently.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
First of all, nice vocabulary, four solid words right there.

Speaker 6 (32:16):
I love it.

Speaker 7 (32:19):
I've just had to sit with it, and it's fucking uncomfortable.
It's been painful. Like I said, I've lost a lot,
but I feel like something Hash shifted and you hear
that a lot in the recovery community. With me, something
hash shifted in the last couple of months, and I'm
having trouble articulating it. However, it's monumental. This chrysalis is monumental,

(32:40):
and I still struggle with. My initial question was how
do you harness that inner bad astery when you feel
inept and I don't feel capable. I have like a
debilitating inadequacy, like an undeserving feeling. I don't deserve a
seat at the table. That's why I'm struggling with the most.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
And do you feel this shift that you're talking about,
this wrestle list happening that's in your life? Is this
in the positive way?

Speaker 7 (33:04):
Yes, there's no frills to it. Like I said, it's
been really isolating, and in the recovery world they sort
of that's not what they encourage you to do. But
I've had to do it. I've had to do this alone,
this leg of it, and I feel a little bit
lighter than when I initially wrote in I have some clarity,
and I guess the big thing is I trust myself

(33:25):
and I've never been able to say that, but I
still struggle with the inadequacy.

Speaker 5 (33:31):
And again that can be such a trigger to why
do I feel this way? Okay, this is a little
bit left field. I feel like on this show I
can mention this. I'm also really into astrology, and I
don't know if you follow for your into astrology at
all now a little okay, So there is I actually
call it the astro life crisis. Between the ages of

(33:53):
about thirty nine, thirty eight, thirty nine and around forty five,
there are a series of very very tense astrological transits
that every person experiences. They're the kinds of life experiences
or that bring up the kind of life experiences and
psychological transitions where we can literally feel like all of
the illusions we've been operating under are shattered. Everything we

(34:15):
thought we knew about our life is not correct. You're nodding, Okay,
you're relating to some of this. And for me having
astrology is at aol, and particularly being able to maybe
take my birth chart to a talented astrologer and have
them kind of map out what transits I'm being impacted
by can be really helpful because it gives some meaning
or like there's something I'm going through. I'm not being

(34:35):
asked to look at some of this stuff for a reason.
And best of all, astrological transits always passed, so that
this too will pass is very kind of clear when
you apply the astrological lens. It's like, Yeah, you might
be having a really intense like Urinus transit which is
making you feel like your whole life has been turned
upside down, and there's some stuff for you to look at.

(34:56):
It's happening for you for a reason, and it's going
to pass, but you're going to come out the other
side of it. So I don't know, I just want
to offer that to you as an additional tool. I
guess potentially you know, understanding that you're interested in these
more kind of esogetetic subjects, it might be something that
could be helpful. And I also agree, like I'm an
introvert and i'm very insula and the typical recovery stuff
about like don't be in isolation that's never really served

(35:18):
me either. I charge up and I find so much
more self awareness and comfort in giving myself enough time alone, right,
enough time to actually sit with my feelings, let my
body process stuff through, like just kind of slob out, honestly,
and so I think, don't beat yourself up about feeling
like you're drawn to more alone time and that recovery

(35:38):
kind of message in your head going no, that's unhealthy,
that's dangerous. Give yourself what you need. It sounds like
you've been giving yourself some really good emotional self care
with that thank you.

Speaker 7 (35:47):
Yeah, there's an element of PTSD from being so saturated
in the recovery world for so long. You know, the
health Step foundation is built on powerlessness, and you know,
accepting or admitting that your life is unmannered. Well, I'm capable,
I know I am, but that that voice is so huge.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
I also think it's important that program works for millions
of people, But that program isn't the only way to,
you know, to quit something for an attic to quit,
because it's kind of putting it on the line each day,
like I'm sober today, Tomorrow is the next day.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
The whole kind of mantra of AA is like I'm
here today, I'm sober today, I'm making this decision today,
which makes it like you have to make the decision
almost every single day, whereas if you make a decision
to quit something that this isn't serving you in your life.
You know, midlife crises. B Rene Brown puts it down perfectly.
She's like, we call it a midlife crisis because whatever

(36:45):
trauma that we've endured comes and sneaks back up on
us by the time we hit forty and all of
your armor, everything kind of falls away because then you're
forced to face your demons. And that's what you're doing.
You're facing your demons because it's time for a new
child in your life. And this isolatory behavior that you're
talking about is totally fine. Whatever the fuck you need

(37:07):
is fine. You could be I mean, do you know
how much value there is in spending time by yourself.
I've had some of the best times of my life alone,
Like that cannot be understated. You know, seeing friends is
also beneficial for your health and your emotional health.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
And all of that.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
But you can totally take breaks from people and totally
say I'm working on myself right now. You know, do meditation,
get into yourself, spiritually, connect with your inner voice. Understand
why you have a problem with alcohol in the first place.
That's the issue, you know, not necessarily the alcohol itself
that you're using as a band aid. You have to

(37:44):
reveal and release your trauma with a therapist, with yourself,
you know, with journaling, with writing, with reading books on
people who've experienced this and come out of it, like
it doesn't matter what steps you take to get there,
and don't think you have to follow the format of
alcoholics anonymous. There's you can make your own format and

(38:04):
we're all capable of that. And you just said this yourself.
You are capable of it. You're strong enough. We all are.
When I went to get hypnotized for smoking, like he's like, okay,
this is the mantra. If you have a desire, it's
not an option. It's not an option. I don't smoke anymore.
I'm done. That's like a little thing that he gave me.
And I'm like, I am done. I know it's bad

(38:25):
for me. I know why I was doing it. I
over abused it, so now I have to give it up. Sorry,
you know, like whoopsie doodle. You abuse something and now
you have to give it up. The rewards are going
to be so much greater in your life for going
through this period of time that you're going through and
for taking like the bull by the horns. And just
because your journey happened to have some like slip ups

(38:49):
or you know, you fell off the wagon. I don't
like the way that's defined by alcoholics anonymous either. So
that's part of your journey you did that. There's no
self immolation necessary. That's okay. Hey, you fucked up. Hopefully
it won't happen again. But if it does, you're not
gonna beerate yourself. But you're definitely never going to become
the kind of drinker that you were before.

Speaker 5 (39:10):
Yeah, I all relapses reminds you learn something with every
time that it comes back, that you're there again, and
like you become stronger every time you listen and pay
attention and act on what you've learned from each of those.
So yeah, and also Chelsea picked up on that you
said it, I am capable, I can do this. How
dare they tell me I'm not? That is the inner
badass that you've been thinking you don't have, Like there

(39:31):
she is right there, you know, I.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Think Also, you know we always are just like we
have all these constructs that everyone's telling us about. You
can forge your own path. You're strong enough, you're smart enough,
like you're you can define what your life is going
to look like moving forward. And what I would just
deter you from is this judgment that you are putting
on yourself, because no one wants that for you, especially you.

(39:57):
You don't need it. You don't need to be judging yourself.
You're living an authentic life. So you've struggled with alcoholism
or addiction or however you want to frame it. So
has have hundreds of millions of people and much worse.
So it's not something that has to define your life.
It's just part of your life.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
You know, you mentioned a chrysalis, but when I think
about a chrystalist, I also think of emerging.

Speaker 4 (40:19):
And I think you're gonna know.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
When is the right time to sort of like come
out of your chrystalist and be around your friends again,
whether that's your AA friends or other friends, and enter
the world again.

Speaker 4 (40:31):
But I think the point here is you will emerge.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
As a butterfly. Yes, thank you all, You're welcome.

Speaker 7 (40:37):
Thanks for digging deep with Menis I appreciate you all?

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, I appreciate you. Ashley, thank you here.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
I Oh, that smile is worth everything.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, that's an example of a caller who's almost almost
gotten to where she's going and just needed in one
more push in the right direction because she's already there.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
I have a couple of questions in a different vein here.
Our next question comes from Jay Dear Chelsea, I'd like
to start off by thanking you for always being an
advocate for women who have chosen not to have children.

Speaker 4 (41:12):
You make me feel.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Validated and seen and heard in a world dominated by
a society that continues to value women becoming mothers over
women prioritizing themselves. I'm almost thirty, successful and live in
a mid sized coastal town in the South. I do
the majority of my dating through HINGE, and I'm genuinely
looking for a long term relationship. I've always known that
I never wanted to be a mother and have ended

(41:35):
a relationship in the past because of this. Here comes
the part I need advice about. For the past year
or so, I've been bringing this topic up on the
first date. I hate having my time wasted and give
the same respect to others, so I typically start by
asking do you want children? So far, the answer is
always yes. I wonder if they think that's what I
want to hear, if it's a cultural thing since I'm

(41:56):
in the South and having children is as normal as breathing,
or if it has to do with their age. The
average age for men I'm dating is around thirty five.
But since I know I'm not changing my mind about this,
I would never expect someone else to. Is it possible
I'm putting too much weight on this topic. I hate
the idea of being the woman that a man dates
before they eventually decide to go and find the mother

(42:16):
of their children. And I refuse to believe that because
I don't want children, then it means I have to
be single forever. Do you have any advice on dating
in my position or a different way to go about it?
Thanks so much, Chelsea Jay.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
I think it's better to be upfront before you go
on the date then, I mean to speak to your
experience when you're talking to the guys and going just
so you know, Like, I've been on a lot of
dates and it's been an issue. It's come up a
lot of times that I'm meeting men who want children
and I'm not interested in that, So I just want
to get that out of the way. I mean, that's
pretty like an aggressive way to go about it. But

(42:49):
if you don't even want to waste your time with
a first date where you can kind of collect that
information and you want to get to the bottom of it.
I mean, then that's what you should do. You should
just preemptively be like just so you know, Like, I know,
we're only going on a first date, so I don't
want to sound crazy, but I don't want children, and
I've been out with a lot of guys and that's
a deal breaker. So I just want to see if
you want kids, Like, maybe we should skip it. You

(43:10):
could just be upfront like that. I mean, I think
the more natural thing to do is to go on
a date and have the conversation then, but if you
are sick of that, then this is a good way
to avoid having that happen again.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, maybe it's ticket right on your profile, like not
interested in having kids?

Speaker 4 (43:25):
Would you do that?

Speaker 5 (43:25):
Right?

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (43:26):
I think they should have they should have that as
a category, right. I think it would be really really
helpful because ultimately a lot of people are going on
dating apps to meet somebody to potentially do that with,
and so if you're not into that, I think it
would be really helpful if the apps themselves had a
category like what is your what's your stance on this?

Speaker 1 (43:43):
You know, or put a picture of a baby up
on your profile app and with a cross, like a
big X over it.

Speaker 5 (43:48):
That's a good way to let people know perfect. But
can I say one other thing on this? There was
a question as well about like why is it why
do all these guys say that they definitely want to
have kids, And I honestly think because it is the
faults to want to be a parent, Like we're kind
of living in this culture, which is very what they
call pro natalist, like parents are seen as more valid
than non parents. It's just like the normal thing to do.

(44:10):
I think that a lot of the time when guys
are saying that, it's just reflective of the fact that
having kids and becoming a parent is seen more as
like a woman's issue. It's something that we are taught
to think about since we first having sex, since we
first get our period, as in like, don't get pregnant,
be careful, you don't get pregnant until you're such and
such age and until you've met the right person.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
Right.

Speaker 5 (44:30):
So we're kind of like indoctrinated with this, not indoctrinated,
but we're encouraged to really think about it from a
very early age, and I just don't think And I
think that shines the light actually on how much more
education there needs to be for men in terms of
like the responsibilities of parenthood and do you know what
it actually means to be a father? And you know, so,
I just think it's kind of interesting that you've got

(44:51):
all these guys who are immediately saying, yeah, I want
to be a dad, and it just makes me question
if they've really thought about what that actually would mean
for their lives.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Yeah, I agree with that. I mean surprised to even
hear men say yeah, we want kids, we want kids
like usually I would. I think they'd be open to
not having them since they don't do anything.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Our next caller is Krinn Krinne says, through doing the
work in counseling, I'm realizing that marriage isn't really what
I want for myself anymore.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Same can be said about kids.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
I'm realizing that I'm absolutely happy being a cool and
loving aunt to my nieces and nephews. I know that
you can relate to all of this, which is why
I need your help. Where are all the thirty somethings
single and child free people at I ask because two
more of my closest friends are expecting their first baby,
one shortly after the other. While I'm thrilled that this
is where their journey has led them, it's not the

(45:44):
same for me. And as excited as I am that
I get to have two more munchkins to spoil my
group of friends that I can text last minute to
see if they want to get away for the weekend
is quickly dwindling. So some have suggested the app meetup,
which I have but still feels a liffy. What would
you suggest to help me connect more with this community?

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Karin Hikerin hiker In Hello, Hello, Oh.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Here, I'm here, yay.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
And I should mention that Krin is a teacher, which
is great birth control. I am sure she just jetted
out from class.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
I did.

Speaker 8 (46:21):
Yes, Yes, it's a Yes, it is birth control, but
it's also I do love it.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Yes, that's nice, that's great.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
And our guest is Ruby Warrington, who wrote the book
Women Without Kids, so she is perfect for her questions.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Oh hello Ruby, perfect.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
Yes, the subtitle lift my book is the Revolutionary Rise
of an Unsung Sisterhood, and that piece unsung sisterhood speaks
to this exact thing you're talking about so often when
you decide you don't want to have children, and it
feels like I'm the only one. More I realized the
more I started talking about it, asking people about it,
looking on social media for other people who felt the

(46:59):
same way, I was like, Oh, there's so many of us.
We just don't have anything to kind of like show
that we're women without kids, because what we have in
common is the lack of a child, right, And there
aren't like after school groups for us or meet up
groups for us. Like there's so much stuff that brings
mums together to find other mums, but for women without kids,
there isn't that same thing. And what I wanted one

(47:20):
of the things I wanted to do with the book
was to kind of start to unite us, even just
by having more people go hey, me over here, and
what about me over here, and like what do we need?
What kind of stuff would we like to do together?
Like I can totally imagine a future where there are
child free holiday vacation companies, and I don't know all
sorts of things that actually cater to specifically to child

(47:42):
free people. I did actually go on one of the
Virgin cruises over Christmas this year, and they are child
free cruises. Oh okay, Well, everybody on board didn't have
their kids with them, and I'm assuming that a fair
number of them probably don't have children. So the other
thing you might be interested to know, as much as
it can feel like with our only ones in our groups,

(48:03):
I think it's like almost fifty percent of women age
seventeen to forty five in the US do not have children.
So actually there are far more of us out there
than you think. It might just take a little bit
of looking around to find people, you know. I'm hosting
a women without Kids retreat, like an in person retreat
at Cropola and Massachusetts in the middle of June, for

(48:24):
the express purpose of kind of giving people an opportunity
to meet each other. But social media is a great
place to find this plenty of kind of like child
ree influences.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Yeah, only where to start, you know.

Speaker 8 (48:35):
And like I said, I'm very happy that they're having kids,
but my group of friends to hang out with is
just really dwindling. I've noticed that the communication between us
is definitely at a blow because I'm just connecting differently
than they are.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
And which makes sense.

Speaker 8 (48:52):
You know, their kids are having friends, they're getting older,
they're getting more involved, so less need for me in
their life. But at the same time, it's like, but
I'm still part of their life. So unless it's for
a sporting game or a holiday or a birthday, there's
not too much for me to you know, hang around
with them.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
So where do I start?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Like, you know, go on my Instagram page and look
at all the comments from women who are single, like
on any of my child free videos, and go look
at their profile. Where do you live.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
I'm in New York.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Oh yeah, go, I mean that's half of my followers are.

Speaker 5 (49:27):
Fround zero ground zero without kids.

Speaker 6 (49:29):
They're everywhere.

Speaker 5 (49:30):
Yeah, you can go out to anyone in the street
and be like, hey, won want to hang out.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
It's going to be it's it's once you start, it's
going to just be easier. It'll all come together. But
I understand you're kind of like feeling at a crossroads.
But literally, go on my Instagram page, find the people
who are commenting about how great their lives are as
single women, child free women, and look where they live
and if they live near your area, reach out to them.
I'm sure what area of New York are you in.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
I'm about an hour north of the city.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
Okay, great, so and Ruby. It goes the same for
Ruby Warrington. Go to her site. She all she talks
about is child free and find women and go, hey,
express your situation. You're gonna find so many people that
are in the same exact position as you that are like, oh, yeah,
you're right. And also start going out alone a little bit.
You know, you don't have to do it all the time,

(50:16):
but go to a bar if you get invited by, like,
you know, one of your friends from school, another teacher,
like say yes to things that you normally wouldn't say
yes to, so you can come broaden your horizons and
find out what else is happening out there.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, I'll also connect you with there's a group of
child free gals in New York specifically that are dear
Chelsea fans.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
I will put you onto Oh Catherine, what the fuck?
Why don't you just up with that?

Speaker 5 (50:40):
Hey, look, the unsung Sistered is out there. I'm actually
moving back to New York at the end of the
summer as well. I hear this from so many people,
and I know there's such a hunger to meet other
people to just socialize and hang out with, you know,
who aren't like coming in baby vomit.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Or comes with like a whole nother baggage and just.

Speaker 6 (50:58):
Kind of like sleep deprived. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
It's not just the baby.

Speaker 8 (51:02):
It's the baby bag, it's the diapers, it's the toys,
it's the pack and play.

Speaker 5 (51:06):
I'm like, oh, right, and I'm thinking about starting some
kind of a regular meet up group. So if you
go onto my Instagram and follow that, they'll be news
about whatever that looks like in the future just as well.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
The last thing I'll say too is Bumble also has
a friend mode, so you can actually turn it to
I'm just looking for friends, see all kinds of friends.
You're looking for female, child free whatever that.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
I think that's really on your social media. It's fine
to be like advertising that, you know what I mean,
being like, Hey, I'm just here single, have no children,
not looking for any, but it would love some other
child free people to hang out with or whatever. Just
get a little bit more creative, change up the kind
of dynamic of your social structure, and I think it'll
be easy. Your normal fun pretty like smart, You've got

(51:50):
everything that people would want to be friends with.

Speaker 5 (51:53):
I heard someone say this to me just yesterday. I
can't remember the exact quote, but it's kind of like
when your friends have kids, they'll disappear for five years
and then they'll be back. So remember that first five
years they're going to be very all consumed with the
newness and the sleep deprivation and all of the things.
And then the more independent their kids.

Speaker 6 (52:12):
Are, they'll be like, hey, where is she?

Speaker 3 (52:16):
Hi?

Speaker 5 (52:16):
Can we hang out? So, like, don't give up on
don't give up on them just because they're not available
to you now. You are living very different lives right now.
But that's not going to be the case forever. Like,
if there's a strong friendship, it's gonna last. If anything,
I would say, give them moments to like, send them
a funny meme, send them a nice voice note I'm
thinking of you. Just let them know that you're there
and that you could not that you appreciate that. Like

(52:38):
they've got other stuff going on right now, but like
you're here, and yes, see to hang and here for
a cocktail if you want to forget that you've got
kids for a night.

Speaker 6 (52:45):
You know where I am.

Speaker 5 (52:47):
You know, right, be that person in their life as well.

Speaker 8 (52:50):
Sure, you know, it's like the like the pendulum right now,
it's swinging in the direction where we're not as close,
but yeah it could.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
It's going to swing swing back the other. But yeah,
that's a good, great, excellent point as well.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
And they're going to also need your help because you're
a teacher, so you're going to have for that they're
going to need access to when their kids are growing up.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's already happening. Yeah, what do I
do or where can I find? What do you suggest?

Speaker 8 (53:14):
Yeah, you're right, Yeah, all great points to consider and
just take in too.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, and be loud about your child free stance so
that you are attracting people that are also feeling that
same way, you know, like that could be your thing, like, oh,
I'm child free and single, I'm looking for other child
free people. Who else is?

Speaker 3 (53:31):
You know?

Speaker 1 (53:32):
And get activated that way. There's no shame in that game.
It's good to pronounce what you're about.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Taking your lead.

Speaker 8 (53:37):
You're normalizing it and it's like, yeah, maybe kids in
a marriage isn't for me, and yeah, make it more known,
normalize it.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
It's okay, Yes, cool.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Well, Karen, you got your marching orders. I'll hook you
up with the New York gals as well. Who are
the dear tel.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yes, yes, yes, please, I would much appreciate that. Yes, right,
thank you so much.

Speaker 6 (53:57):
We'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
Let us know how it goes.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Thank you guys so much much.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Bye, Honey, bye, thank you, Bye bye Ruby Bye. What
a cute she is. I didn't know we had a
fucking group of child free people. Can we do?

Speaker 7 (54:13):
No?

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Remember, they keep writing in be like, can you add
me to the list? I told you, I told you.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Where do they congregate?

Speaker 4 (54:19):
I actually don't know.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
I should check in with them, but I got like
several of them together on an email thread and they're like, well,
let you know how it goes, Bloper please, yeah, yes, yeah,
I'll connect her. I knew she was East cousin, I
didn't know if she was New York.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
So that's that's perfect.

Speaker 6 (54:33):
But let's take a.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Quick break, and I actually have one more quick question
for you when we come back, which is.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
Sort of the opposite of the question we just covered.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
And we're back.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
We're back.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Our last question comes from Jen. Hey, girls, my name
is Jen Cod and I'm seeking advice from a child
free woman's perspective on how much I should really expect
from my best friend when it comes to my children.
We have been best friends for twelve years, and to
this day, she prefers to not hang out if my
boys are with me, ages ten and six. I definitely

(55:11):
don't think they should be around every time we hang out,
but she has never made any effort to bond with
them or get to know them. I try my hardest
to never cancel plans with her, but sometimes I ask
if it's okay for the boys to come, and she
reschedules every time. She does claim she wants kids, just
not yet. But I don't understand why she doesn't want
anything to do with mine, seeing as how they are

(55:32):
such a big part of my life.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
Much love Jen, Okay, Well Jen, as the Devil's advocate,
I would just say, are your boys of fucking pain?
And they ask to hang out with a they ask
yourself that question because maybe they are, Maybe they're very rambunctious.
Maybe that really annoys her.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
I don't know how old did she say at ten
and six?

Speaker 1 (55:54):
So probably yeah, Like that's not for everyone. And while
it's disappointing, and I would always make an effort for
any one of my friends that have children, I not
an effort to hang out with them, but an effort
to know about them and get to know them, or
you know, I don't need to be on playdates with them.
I know it's your best friend and you want her
to be more interested, but I don't think you can

(56:15):
impose that upon her. Your life choices are not her
life choices, and while you may want her to care,
you can't control the way she feels about that. And
maybe your kids are just not for her. Like, I
don't know a lot of people that aren't mothers that
want to hang out with a ten and six year
old boy.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
I don't, especially ones that are not related to Technically, yeah, yeah,
my friend has has two boys and she's one of
my closest friends.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
She's never asked me to hang out with them. And
it's not because I wouldn't. I would, but she's never
asked me, So I just I don't think that that's
a fair request. What do you think, Ruby, Yeah, well.

Speaker 5 (56:47):
I think that. I mean, I'll speak for myself. Some
people just aren't good with kids. One of the I
think one of the reasons I never wanted to have children,
is I didn't really like being a child, Like I
didn't even know how to be with kids when I
was a kid, Do you know what I mean? Like,
I I don't know, I just don't really know how
to talk to kids. I don't really know what they're
interested in. I kind of clam up around kids, like

(57:09):
I'm just not a kid person on any level. And
so yeah, it kind of like completely changes the dynamic
of a friend.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
Hang.

Speaker 5 (57:16):
If I think I'm going to be spending the day
with my friend and then her kids are there as well,
because I just get really kind of self conscious and
sort of like are we talking to them?

Speaker 6 (57:24):
And if so, what do we talk about?

Speaker 5 (57:26):
Because I've got no idea, And like there's also other
stuff that could be going on under the surface, Right,
it could be that I don't know, maybe your friend
is would like to have children and can't for some
reason that you guys haven't had time to discuss. And
actually she doesn't really want to be in a situation
where she's constantly reminded of the fact that she hasn't
got there in her life yet. Like there's so many

(57:48):
things that could be going on that are kind of
resulting in this but yeah, I can understand how it
might feel hurtful.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
It's a distraction also to hang out with two kids,
Like then you're not really hanging with each other. It's
all about the kids, So like that's take away from
the friendship. And I understand she's saying once in a while,
but I really don't think it's a it's a fair
demand of your friend to want to hang out with
your kids. You can't make somebody want to do something.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
And I think don't take it personally either, Like she's
not doing it to.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
Be hurtful to you.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
She's just not interested in your kids. And I think
that's okay, just seeing as time with her is time
away from your kids. It's grown up time.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
Yeah, thank you so much, Ruby Warrington. I wish you
so much success. Thank you for being our guest today.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
Yeah, well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 6 (58:30):
I mean, honestly, Chelsea.

Speaker 5 (58:31):
After your Netflix special came out and then you produced
your genius, genius Diary of a Child Free Women real,
I literally was getting DMS and messages most days, several
messages most days.

Speaker 6 (58:42):
Send Chelsea a copy of your book. Chelsea needs your book.
So thank you.

Speaker 5 (58:45):
I'm so happy you've got the book and that you're
reading it. To have had this conversation with you and
have had the opportunity to answer some of your your
reading questions today, it's been really great. Thanks.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, it has been Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (58:58):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Okay. Second shows have been added for those of you
coming to see my new stand up tour, which you
have to come because I'm having the best time. We
added a second show into Cincinnati, Los Angeles, which is
actually October thirteenth. There are still tickets for October thirteenth
show in Los Angeles. We added second shows in Chicago,
the Chicago Theater at Portland, Oregon, San Francisco. They're both

(59:20):
almost completely sold out. Detroit, Michigan, and then we added
a second show in Cincinnati in the daytime at five
o'clock PM. I'm doing my first show because I don't
have a night where I can go back, so we
added a second show at five pm, and the original
show is at eight pm. Original show is sold out.
Second show tickets are available Cincinnati. I'm also coming to
Cleveland on October twentieth, and then I'll be in Columbus

(59:44):
October twenty first and Pittsburgh October twenty second. So those
three shows I still have tickets available, and you can
go to Chelsea Hamler dot com for other tickets and
other information. And if you want to buy some of
our merch, that's all available on Chelseahanmler dot com. And yeah, guys,
I'll see you on the road.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and
be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
com