David Fincher & Zodiac (2007)

On this week’s criminal episode of Dear Movies, I Love You, Millie and Casey dissect David Fincher’s masterpiece ZODIAC (2007). Plus, another beautiful installment of ‘Gripes, Gropes, and ‘Grets’ has the hosts asking, “Is THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS a Christmas or Halloween movie?”

​Follow, rate, and review Dear Movies, I Love You wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the show on Instagram: @dearmoviesiloveyou.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Casey, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (00:03):
Really, not much? How are you? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm a little stressed out right now, but otherwise I'm fine.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Well I'm a little stressed out too, because you know
how we've been receiving all these coded messages to our
dear movies I love you email.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I mean I saw I sort of peek in there
from time to time, and then I would open up
certain emails and they just had a bunch of gobbledygook,
so I just shut them and move on.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yeah, we were We've been receiving you know, pages upon
pages of coded cipher messages, you know, and we were like, wait,
what does this mean? And there's been like threatening letters
attached saying like you have to read this code on
on the air on your podcast, and we haven't. You know.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Wow, I actually had no idea that was happening. I
just thought it was like somebody tried to send us
a fax and it turned out badly. So you're telling
me that we've been getting threatening.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Letters, yes, yes, And you know, I've been working with
our legal department to just sort of figure out what
the best way to you know, pursue this is because
we don't want, you know, we don't want to comply
to this, you know, terrorists, threats, you know, if that's
the case. So, but I spent a few weeks. I
worked with some experts. I took out a bunch of

(01:23):
code books from the library, you know, as you do,
as you do, and I cracked the code for one
of these ciphers.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Wow, okay, so what's going to happen? What's happening?

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Well, yeah, so I haven't actually like, you know, I
just decoded it, but I haven't read it, you know,
so I don't know the contents, but I just it's
been decoded. So I thought we could, I don't know,
go through that together real quick. Uh yeah, come on, Okay,
all right, let's see here. Okay, here's the first one.
Let me pull this up. It's all kind of handwritten here,
so I'm kind of sorting through a bunch of papers. Okay,

(01:58):
here here's the message. This is long, so just to
hang in there. Okay, Millie, it's addressing you first. You
are so cool. I love your film insights and your
sense of humor. Uh got me lowling l ol ing

(02:24):
all day. Okay, So that's that's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Sounds like a positive terrorist if you have.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, so maybe these are just positive. So here's the
next section. Casey, I can tell your farts really stink.
They probably smell like gasoline and coal. Slaw. Okay, you
are so farty. You probably have farts coming out of

(02:56):
your mouth when you talk. They are so potent that
I can actually smell them when I download the podcast. Wow,
they magically permeate through the speakers in my car and
into my nostrils. When you talk and I smell your farts,

(03:18):
it makes me Okay, this goes on for like pages.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Wow, dude, so.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Uh and there's no demands.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
It's just like talking about your farts that are somehow
coming through the speakers.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, I guess so, or there's some conjecture that I
have stinky farts, which is not true.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
So I don't know, And I think it's like kind
of you know, if I'm dissecting this, they say I
can tell your farts really stink, but then they say
they can smell them, So which is it? You know,
there's just sort of like there's sort of mixed messaging
in there.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
So, I mean, it's just so odd that I would
receive such positive feedback from this weird person who has
written us in code and that you are literally just
a fart machine.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah, it's hard to know their motivation, frankly.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Very hard. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
So well, well, I guess I'll keep decoding these messages
in case they ask for something. I mean, I don't know, have.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
You gotten any like phone calls with just people breathing
really heavy or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Or yeah, I'll get a phone call in the middle
of the night and it's kind of like a person
like sniffing, sniffing.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, ah, what a sick bastard.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
I know. So, like I guess to see if they
can smell my farts or whatever. But yeah, it's sick.
I mean, it's sick. It's sick behavior. So please don't
send any more of these.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well yeah, sick. Oh, I mean, I mean, if you
want to send me compliments, I'm not going to stop you. Okay,
let's just be real. But if you're going to talk
about Casey's farts and you're gonna be talking about them
in really really harrowing detail and then you're gonna call
and sniff on the phone, I mean that we can't
have that, or.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
I would say at the very least. Please don't send
them in a coded message. Just send them as an
email so I don't have to take the hours to
decode them, you know what I'm saying. So sorry about that, Millie. Sorry, No, I.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Care about you as my co host. I don't want
people talking about your farts, not on my watch, if
you know.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Well. Speaking of coded messages, yeah, we have quite an
episode today when she said.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
We do, we do, and I can't wait to get
into this. We're talking about Zodiac from two thousand and seven.
I have a lot of I have thoughts about this movie.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
God, I do too. And here's the thing. I think
we were kind of coming up with ideas, you know,
for episodes, which we do all the time. I was like,
let's just talk about this movie straight up. We don't
even need to talk about it in any other context
other than this movie just being one of my favorite movies.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah. So it's a big movie. It's huge.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
It is huge. Also, I don't know if you clocked
this or not. Did you see a bit of Christmas
in Zodiac?

Speaker 3 (06:12):
I did? I did. There's some Christmas scenes. Well, I
have to ask our friend Alanza Dralda. You know if
it can classified as a Christmas movie or not. But yeah,
I did notice that and I loved it.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Listen if they can, if they can make Eyes Watch
Shut a Christmas classic, I think they can make Zodiac
one too, just saying.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
I love that California Christmas. Look, we also are gonna
be talking about gripes and gropes and grats. Might have
to get out the guitar.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
The three G's, the three Wise Gees.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
The three Wise Geese. Sure, sure, that'll be fun.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
We got some voicemails too, which is great.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
We do.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
We always love hearing your voice.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
I do very good. Uh but yeah, that's about it.
A huge show.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, please stay tuned. We would love it. You're listening
to Deer movies. I love you, Dear, and I've got to.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Love me too. Check the books.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Hey, everybody, you are listening to Dear movies. I love you.
This is a podcast for those who are in a
relationship with movies, and we're not We're not talking about
a relationship where you write weird, creepy letters from a
distance over the course of many years. We're talking about
people who are actively involved and in a relationship with movies,

(07:49):
wouldn't you say?

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yes? Do people even write love letters anymore? Millie?

Speaker 1 (07:55):
No, not really. I mean I certainly haven't gotten one.
I think people now probably get love dms.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Ah the love DM. Do you remember in old movies
how they're like they would say, like do you make love?
In the sense that like it's like do you do
lovey things? You know when you know how like the
phrase make love used to be more like do you

(08:23):
write love letters? And are you romantic? Rather than just
have sex? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 1 (08:29):
I don't know the Orchard story of making love okay
at all, but I do I do think I've got
to say I kind of like it as a phrase.
I wish it would come come back.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Making love.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, me and my husband made love. It's like it
just feels so I.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
Don't know, like yeah very much.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
So any who, Anyway, I wanted to tell you that
I'm Milly to.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Cherco, I'm Casey O'Brien, and we.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Like we said at the beginning, we're doing a good
movie today. Are a movie that I feel like has
been misunderstood over the years.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Perhaps, Yeah, I think it was even a little misunderstood
at the time that it came out.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, but I actually think it is. To be honest,
it's one of those movies now that's gotten a complete
it's been there's been a complete upheaval from the original opinion.
I feel like there's so many people that like this
movie now more than ever.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
I absolutely, I feel like there's a lot of people
who say, like, oh, that's, if not my favorite movie,
like one of my favorite movies of all time.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Oh man. I mean, like, if you want to, we're
going to talk about the director, David Fincher, of course,
but there's many people that think it's this best movie.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, which is interesting because well, we'll get into it.
I have a lot of thoughts about that, Millie. I
want to know what you have wanted this past week
and to know that we must open up the film dire.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well. I know this podcast is called Deer Movies. I
love you, But sometimes once in a while.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Anyway, the opposite feeling occurs.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
I'm kind of I kind of had this thought when
we were talking about Almost Famous the other week, because
I was basically like, here's a movie that I don't
like that that I recommended apparently.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
And I was complicate complicated?

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Right? Is that a counterintuitive thing for this podcast? I
don't know. We like we have crushes on movies and
then sometimes we fucking hate their gifts. So anyway, it's
occurred again this week. Unfortunately. So I saw I saw
one movie. I saw it at the movie theater, my
infamous movie theater where fireworks go off and the place

(11:01):
gets shut down constantly. I did have drama this time
again because it is a theater that has you know,
reclining seats, and my fucking seat was broken and I
was stuck in this like weird like breach baby position
for like half the movie.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
And I was so annoyed by oh my god, that
would drive me crazy.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
And then of course, you know it's like if your
TV screen doesn't work on an airplane. Oh you know,
it's like.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
But imagine, like my feet are kind of hanging in
the air. My whole back is pretty much flat, and
I'm like, so there's a total stranger sitting next to me, okay.
And you know how in some of these theaters, like
the buttons for the the chair and the seat heaters
are like right on the handle, like right on the

(11:52):
arm rest. And then it's like next to the other
person's armrest. So imagine me with my fucking legs and
air desperately trying to mash buttons so I could get
out of this fucked up position, and this guy looking
at me like, what the fuck is wrong with this woman?

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Now? Did was it like that? When you walked up
to the seat for the first time?

Speaker 1 (12:15):
It was like, no, no, it wouldn't have like willingly
sat in a broken chair that was already broken.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
It was. It was fine.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
And then what happened was is that I sat down
in it, I pressed the little foot, yeah, you know,
like the foot reclined, and then for some reason it
just stopped like maybe a third of the way up.
And then I was like, well, okay, I don't know.
So my mashed this other button, which made the back
of the chair go back, and that's what happened, is

(12:44):
the back of the chair went all the way back,
and then the feet were kind of just stuck in
the air.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
This is like a mister bean.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
God, it was goddamn awful. And I was like in
the dark, smashing buttons and like my foot has fallen asleep.
I'm like, oh, and I had like popcorn on my
fucking chest. It was awful.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Have you even said what movies?

Speaker 1 (13:08):
No, I haven't even said. This is just a film gripe.
This is a gripe, I guess at the beginning. But
this all happened while I was watching The Running Man
from twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
Mmm, so, starring Glenn Powell, directed by Edgar Wright.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Now maybe I should, you know, throw this caveat out there.
I wasn't in an uncomfortable position seating wise, Okay, Do
I believe it affected my attitude towards the film? Perhaps? However,
I really think that if I was sitting properly, I'd

(13:49):
probably have the same thoughts. Sure, which are I don't
understand Glenn Powell at all. I do not know what's
happening there. I know we've talked about him in the past. Asked,
because you actually asked me, like, what are your top
three Glenn Powell movies? And I'm like, I don't even
know if I have one. I've never seen him at anything.

(14:09):
I don't think I don't see twisters.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
He's yeah, he's sort of a flavorless actor, and I
haven't been totally impressed by him. I think he's good
in a maybe supporting role like in Top Top Gun.
I thought he was pretty good, and I thought he
was pretty good in Everybody Wants Some as kind of
like a sleazy kind of seventies guy.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Uh. That's actually the movie that people have mentioned to
me as something I should watch in order to form
a better opinion about Glenn Powell.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
Everybody Wants Some Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think
that's sort of the best type of thing he can do.
But I don't know if he can be a leading man.
And he's he's like a revolutionary in this movie.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Okay. The conceit of this film, right, is that you've
got this poor working class, lower working class man living
in a kind of dystopian future who has a mixed
race child married to a black woman. They live in

(15:20):
what they would call slum or, you know, a very
poor part of this techno future town, right, and he
is so desperate to buy medicine for his child that
he decides to join this game, this reality show game,
you know, the original Running Man with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Right,
And I'm watching this shit going, Ain't no fucking way

(15:43):
this guy is this guy, Ain't no fucking way Okay,
number one, I'm like, this guy does not read revolutionary
to me at all. All Right, if you want to
talk about revel lutionaries, let me put let me put
this in perspective. Okay, Leonardo DiCaprio with a mixed race

(16:06):
child potentially as a revolutionary, I buy that. Glenn Powell
as a revolutionary with a mixed race child, I'm not
buying it.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Okay, he does just like read so country club maga
codd guy.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
You know, Oh my god, that is the exact phrase
that I used when I was talking to my friends
about it. I was like, he's so maga coded, and
I'm like, and then there were times in the film
where you know, his his mission is so singular in
the film, which is that he just wants to take
care of his family. He and I'm like, that is
an important goal to have in life. But why coming

(16:42):
out of his mouth does it seem very like trad Wyvy, Like, man,
I'm sorry, but like, this motherfucker has too many abs.
I'm gonna throw that. I'm throwing that out there. There's
a section of the film where he's repelling down the
side of a building in just a towel Okay, the

(17:04):
magic of movies. Somehow that towel stayed put, which I
was like, ain't no way that happened. But then I'm like, going,
this guy, you're telling me, this guy lives in a slum.
You're telling me this guy, like you know, has zero dollars.
I'm like, he could just literally walk on stage at
Magic Mike in Las Vegas and have a job. Like

(17:26):
He's not. No, I'm not buying it. He's too handsome
and he's too absy to be this character.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Isn't it interesting that? I think that just proves that,
like what a good actor Leo is because he like
he also comes from like super white looking, privileged looking guy.
He can play that character. But he was totally believable
in one battle after another, and I just don't think
Glenn Powell could do that well.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Leo is also at that point in his age and
his you know, countenance where he can look like shit,
yeah and be like effective and funny and like he
It's like Leo could be the character actor of his
fucking fantasies now if he wanted to be. Yeah, Glenn
Powell is still the hunk, Like he cannot play someone

(18:16):
grimy or I mean, even if he was just like
a run of the mill construction worker, you know, pipe
fitter guy or whatever his character was, I was just like,
I'm not buying it. Don't flash those abs and tell
me that this guy's are revolutionary.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah. Period.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
So anyway, I kind of took me out of the
movie a little bit. I also have other opinions about
the movie, which I will keep to myself. This has
already gone on too long, but I maybe I don't
want to reveal them. Sure, for for reasons you don't
need to know about. But I I was like, yeah,
I was disappointed, and.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Well, do you like the original Running Man?

Speaker 1 (18:58):
I love Arnold, So I mean I think that answers
a question. So it's like that thing where I'm like,
and I mean, like, the concept of it is interesting, obviously,
but it's like and I also think there are definitely
great parts of the movie. I mean, Coleman Domingo is
really good in the movie. But for the most part,
I could just cannot understand what was happening with Glen
Powell and he will never be listening to this. But

(19:20):
you know, I'm sorry, sir. You maybe incredibly nice. But
then I've also seen you in a movie with Sidney Sweeney,
which don't even get me started about that.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Like, yeah, I mean they are two peas in a
little pod.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, it feels like they're kind of like the Maga
prom King and Queen. Should I even say that? It
just feels it feels that way.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
We're not saying they are that way, but even though
Sidney Sweeney is a registered Republican.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
But yeah, yeah, anyway, all that to say, my only
movie logged this week, and I was I had my
feet in the air of the entire time, and yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
A traumatic experience from head to toe.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Seems like all right, so what about your diary and
what's going on?

Speaker 3 (20:01):
Okay, So I watched three movies this week and I
liked all of them. Number one, I watched Gross point
Blank from nineteen ninety seven. I've never seen this before
done and fuck, are you serious? Yeah, I'm serious. It's
great and it's great and I loved it. And it's
interesting because I was like, John Cusack made Gross point
Blank and High Fidelity kind of back to back, and

(20:24):
he produced both of those with like his production company,
and he hasn't really done he hasn't produced, he's done
I think he did a movie called War Inc. Which
I haven't seen, which apparently is a loose sequel to
Gross point Blank. But I would love if he tried
to produce more movies kind of with his production company
out of Chicago. I don't even know if that production

(20:45):
company is like a functioning company anymore, but like Gross
point blank and High Fidelity, those are like two amazing movies. Yeah,
you know.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
And I have to say, like a lot of people
fell in love with Minie Driver, either from Circle of
Friends or Goodwill Hunting, and I have to say, this
is the one that got me her like her and
Gross point Blank. I was like, I'm in love with
that woman.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yep, uh huh, you too loved it? I yeah, I
love this type of John Cusack movie, and I just
I want more yeah of that. And I don't know
if it's too late or if he even wants to
make these types of movies, but this type of movie
is great. This kind of like funny, quirky, character driven
comedy is great and I loved it. But I love

(21:33):
John Cusack and I just want to see him more
often in movies that I want to see. Yeah, fair enough,
I've mentioned that before, but I love him. Okay. Then
I watched The Naked Gun from twenty twenty five between
Reason and Pamela Anderson. I had a damn blast. I
was giggling. I had so much fun. There is a
joke about Buffy the Vampire Slayer that had me laughing

(21:57):
so hard. Anyways, I he was great, It was great.
I loved it.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
That version was the Fergie joke for me.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
The Fergie joke the black Eyed Peas joke, they're very
similar jokes. They're kind of like run on references to
something you wouldn't think Liam Neeson's character would know anything about,
but it was. There was some really funny stuff in there,
and it's like laugh a minute. It's the type of
movie where there's like a joke every two seconds. Yeah,

(22:26):
you know. And I had a great time. Even though
David Zucker is it David Zucker who did the original
Airplane and Naked Gun. He was like, I did not
like the new one. It wasn't good. Ah well, but
I was like, it is good. I like the original
Naked Gun and I like this one. I thought this,
I don't know, I thought it was a good continuation.

(22:47):
Did I tell you?

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Did I tell you that. Did I mention this on
the podcast. What I saw in the theater. I think
it was opening maybe an opening night or opening weekend.
That everybody, virtually everybody in the theater was plus and
it warmed my heart so much.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
That's great. Yeah, that was great. Lots of laughter. It's
fun being in a theater where people are really laughing.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah, it was great.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
And then I watched a movie called micro Budget from
twenty twenty four, and this might come into play in
a future episode. I really enjoyed it. It's a mockumentary
about a the making of a micro budget movie and
it was very funny. And put a pin in that

(23:32):
for later.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Okay, we'll do.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
But that's it. That's all I have.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
All Right, Well, I guess we're closing this shit, close
it up, bye bye.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
All right, we are back. It is time for our
big movie discussion, and we're talking about Zodiac from two
thousand and seven, directed by David Fincher, screenplay by James Vanderbilt,
based on the book Zodiac by Robert Gray Smith, who's
also a character in this movie, played by Jake Jillenhall.
The genre true crime thriller ensemble period piece themes paranoia, obsession, drama.

(24:22):
Stand out actors. Who isn't in this What actor is
not in this movie? There's so many all your guys,
my guys, all.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
My guys, like even ones. I was like, oh shit,
that is my.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Guy, Elius Cotius, my king, my Greek king. I love him.
I'm talking Donald Log Donald Logue, Yeah, he loved him,
met him.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
He love him. Brian Cox, who doesn't love that? Motherfucker?
Anthony Edwards, who we love here on this podcast.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
We do love here. Yeah, Miracle Mile.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Or Calemile You kidding?

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Come on, I would love to have acted in this movie.
Can you imagine just a big fat Evandy's tie? What
great smoking cigarettes on set? God?

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, this is like you know, we talked about this
when we were talking about the ice Storm because you
were like bringing up doesn't like something about like seventies
movies looking really hokey. Yeah, and they have the tendency
to do that, but that there's a couple of movies
that they're the seventies has really lived in. This is
one of them.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Oh absolutely, it didn't feel like that different from our reality.
It's just like fashions a little different. They aren't using computers. Yeah,
you know, like it felt very real. Uh yeah. Standout
actor is Jake Jyllenholme, Mike Mark, Mike Ruffalo, Mark Ruffalo,
Robert Downey Junior, Anthony Edwards, Brian Cox, Dermott Milroney, pops in.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
There, James la Grosse.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
I mean, come on, man, James la Grosse, Chloe Savigner
famous quotes, Na, this.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Is the Zodiac speaking. I feel like that's that's like,
A is.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
The Zodiac speaking. Yeah, it is a. I guess that
is a famous quote because he did they did say that.
Uh huh yeah, Millie, MILLI. What's your personal connection to
this movie?

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Why do I laugh every single time? I'm never gonna
not laugh. My personal connection is very fucking strong, because
here's the tea. Like I when I first saw Zodiac,
I saw it a couple of years after it came out,
not right when it came out, but a couple of
years after. I was literally like looking around, going, why
all y'all hate this movie? This is fucking fantastic. This

(26:30):
is a fucking great movie. Uh and you know this
I'm talking about. This is how I felt, in spite
of the baggage. The centophile baggage of David Fincher. I'm
gonna say it, yeah, like so many dudes love to
talk about David Fincher, and it's like so exhausting, Okay, yeah. Unfortunately,

(26:58):
I feel like sometimes when when you have these types
of directors that people just like talk about ad nauseum
a bros. Film brows, You're just like, ugh, don't even
want to fucking watch his movies. Like, just so, having
said that, I was like, this movie is, dare I
say a masterpiece?

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Please? Dare I think it is a masterpiece?

Speaker 1 (27:22):
And so from that point on, I just really couldn't
understand why people didn't like it. And then I a
couple of years ago, actually well, I was still living
in LA. They showed it at the New Beverly Cinema,
which everybody knows in La, famous movie theater in LA.
They were playing Zodiac and I was like, I'm riding
my bike to see that shit, are you kidding me?
I've never seen it in a movie theater, went and

(27:44):
saw it, had an amazing time. Two and a half
hours later, came out of a movie theater scared out
of my fucking mind, and I was like, oh, I
got to ride my bike back home in the dark,
and I was terrified.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
I was terrified. Did you have a light on your bike?
Or you're wearing helmet?

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Very concerned all these things. I say, I have a
helmet as MIPS. It's a MIPS helmet. I had, like
to two lights, flashing light. But I'm a woman riding
a bike a loan in West Hollywood, where tons of
famous murders have happened.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
So I was scared.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
And like, when I watched it this time so we
could talk about it, I was scared.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
Again.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
This shit rattles me. Man, Like, yeah, it's great. What
about you? What's your connection?

Speaker 3 (28:34):
So I was one of these shitheads who would have
been screaming at you. Really, I would have been yelling
this movie sucks. I saw this in college. I saw
it in the theaters, and you know, I was in
film school, so you know, I'm right in. I'm in
the pool. I'm in the stew of the shitheads and
we love you know. I loved Seven, I loved The Game,

(28:59):
Panic Room, Fight Club. All those movies have a very
edgy sort of look to them, and they're all pretty
violent and thrilling, you know, Yeah, and they're all kind
of the same. They are very much all sort of
the same genre, I would say, a movie. And so
when I went to go see Zodiac also, I want

(29:20):
to say, this was also right when movies were sort
of starting to be shot on digital. If you recall,
so there was like movies like Collateral that came out
or I don't know, there was a few others that
came out around this time, and Zodiac was one of them.

(29:42):
And in film school it was very much like digital
things shot digitally suck. Digital is evil. Things need to
be shot on film. And then Zodiac is shot on digital.
And I will say, even watching it this time, some
of the night scenes, I'm like, this doesn't look very
good to It's not that it doesn't look good, but
I'm like, I can tell this is a digital camera.

(30:04):
And I think when I saw it in theaters that
really bothered me. But more than that, I was just
kind of like, this isn't like a David Fincher movie.
This is like messy and long and big and not
tight and violent like I'm used to with David Fincher movie.
So I kind of was like, I don't get this.
I don't think this is good. I think he messed up. Anyways,

(30:25):
that was the last time I saw the movie, and
so when I was gonna rewatch it, I was like, oh,
everybody has changed their pindir tune on this one, and
I guarantee you I will not. I'm gonna think this
sucks still. And I loved it it totally. I was like,
this is the best David Fincher movie. I totally have
done a total one eighty on it. Yes, And I

(30:46):
thought it was so good. I thought it was so textured.
I thought it was so funny. I thought it was
had a lighter touch than a lot of other David
Fincher movies. And I was just like really impressed. And
I also was able to appreciate it this time as
more of a newspaper journalism movie, which it very much is,

(31:07):
in addition to being scary. Yeah. So anyways, that's very
long winded, but that's sort of my personal connection to
the movie.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah. No, I'm actually I mean, it pleases me very
much that you have revised your opinion on Zodiac, because
I do think that, I mean, I do think that
this movie is a perfect example of something which we
you know, basically a spouse here on the podcast which
is that you should see movies again, like if you can't,

(31:34):
if you can stomach it, that is, Yeah, because time
and place contexts your personal life, everything plays into.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Growth as a human being. I mean something you just
I mean I talked about that with the Ice Storm.
I was like when I watched it, when I was like,
I don't know, nineteen, I was like, I don't get this,
you know, but like now I'm a middle aged man
with a child, then maybe I have some more understanding
of the world now.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
So yeah, and I think that just like, I mean,
this is like kind of like foundation of the cinema
shithead that we talk about so much here, which is
that you know, at certain points you just crave different
tempos for films. I mean, when I was younger, I
liked really gnarly, violent, salacious, fucked up movies. And then

(32:21):
as I've gotten older, I find myself wanting slower pacing
a little bit more, you know, to unravel. Like this
is what I think is so pleasing about, and this
is something I wanted to talk to you about kind
of right off the bat. Is the idea of these
kind of crime procedural films, which are very like long
because I think that that was a criticism of the movie.

(32:44):
I think when I had was starting to watch it,
maybe like again like twenty nine twenty ten, which is
that it's like God is so boring. It's like so
detail oriented. It's like, who gives a shit? You know,
like why are we going through like, you know, these
tiny little details. And I that is one of the
best things about the movie to me is that this
is just a slow burn of all these facts that

(33:09):
I think as a younger person I probably wouldn't have
had the stomach for I would have gotten bored too.
But now as an older person, I'm like, yes, this
is juicy, Give me everything, give me the deeps.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean like every little fact, I was like, ooh,
the handwriting doesn't match. His r's are different, you know.
I was really hanging on each little development.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Right, And this is an unsolved case. So it is, yes,
possibly one of the most famous unsolved crimes in history,
I would say, if not the most, definitely in the
top three.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
So there's a lot of meat on that boat. And
I feel like, like a good movie is knows how
to distill that information to where you feel like you're
getting a lot of info and it isn't five hours
at six hours long, I feel like it's a perfect
balance of these things, and like, quite honestly, it made
me want to read Robert Graysmith's book, Like.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
I absolutely I'm about to go buy that shit right now.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
I'm like, this sounds asolutely awesome and I definitely want
to know more about it. But it's I don't know
if you thought about this. I certainly thought about it
this time. Did it not seem that there were so
many setups? Like because think about this movie being like
what two and a half hours something like that. Yeah,
and they it's packed with you know, procedure almost kind

(34:32):
of like day by day in a lot of sequences,
but that they were all have the scenes were happening fast.
So I was like, I was like, going, how many
setups did they use total in this film? Because there's
different clothes, different scenes, different setups, and I'm going they

(34:53):
must have had like a thousand or so cuts on
the cutting room floor that they didn't use.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
It seems like an exhausting movie to put together. Yeah,
I do think that's what like makes that is one
of David Fincher's superpowers is his like meticulous concentration on
very specific details, and he's like so detail oriented that
it seems like he's like the kind of man who
can make a movie like this. Because this movie does
take place over like years, like you're saying, it's like

(35:22):
there's like all these like like they go back to
the same locations, but it's like it's years later, so
they look they probably look a little different, and people
are wearing different clothes and stuff, and it's just the same.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
There's not even really like super long takes though, do
you know what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, they really
chop it up. And I'm like, I don't know, I
just I was kind of like reeling from that fact
this time. I'm like, man, they must have like.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Had it was a long shoot. Yeah, it was a
long shoot, and I know some of the actors were
getting a little worn down by not just to shoot,
but also Fincher's meticulous nature, which maybe we'll get into
a little bit later. I'm just gonna start some of
the synopsis right now, do it, Okay. So the opening
of the movie, it kind of opens with two murders

(36:09):
pretty close together. This this this plot is gonna be
tough to put out. So I'm gonna just I'm a
painting with broad brushstrokes here. So we open with a
very frightening scene of Darlene Farren and Mike Majeaux being
shot in a car in Lover's lane like this is
like the first scene of the movie and their young

(36:30):
kids and Mike survives and Darlene doesn't. Okay, we've introduced
this murderer. Later, the San Francisco and this is in
northern California. Later, the s at the San Francisco Chronicle,
they receive coded letters from a man calling himself Zodiac.
He demands that his coded letters be printed in the
paper or else he's going to kill a bunch of people.

(36:52):
He makes a bunch of threats about killing all sorts
of people, including school children. Paul Avery, played by Robert
Downey Junior, is a right at and reporter at the
Chronicle and he ends up being kind of the main
guy writing about the Zodiac for the San Francisco Chronicle.
Robert gray Smith is a political cartoonist play by Jake Gillenhall,
and he is just sort of around collecting information overhearing conversations.

(37:19):
He's a political cartoonist. He has no involvement in these cases.
He's not even writing about it, but he's just around.
So then another couple is murdered, Brian Hartnell and Cecilia Sheppard.
These are real people. They are stabbed by the Zodiac
while hanging out near Lake Barriessa. Again, the man survives

(37:40):
and the woman is killed. So that's sort of the
beginning kind of the setup, these two murders, and the
Zodiac is taking credit for these murders in his letters
to the newspaper. So this is sort of the setup.
And this is the seventies, this is the late sixties
at this point in nineteen sixty nine, and this movie
takes place over the course of like fifteen twenty years,

(38:02):
right basically, So what you know, we talked about even
Fincher a little bit, but like, what is your relationship
to David fincher movies? And would you did you say
that this is your favorite one?

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, it is for sure. I mean I have sort
of dipped in and out of him in my life.
I mean, to be completely honest with you, I'm like,
he gets an a plus for me for shooting those
Madonna videos from the eighties, shot express let's express yourself

(38:34):
yog So I love that stuff, can't get enough of that.
I loved seven in high school. I have gone on
record talking about this. I saw what you did. I
was stupidly obsessed with that. Me and my friends were
so stupidly obsessed with seven when it came out, and

(38:56):
we were just dorks about it. If you remember me
talking about my affiliation with the Seven Deadly Monkeys, you
might know exactly what I'm talking about. I I liked
Seven and rewatched it for the pod, thought it was great,
and then like there's just stuff in between that I was,
I mean, no interest in Fight Club by the way,

(39:18):
like Zero I watched it, I was like, I mean,
I don't even need to go into that at all. Yeah,
did not see Benji Buttons, but I liked Gone Girls,
So it was kind of that feeling of like eh,
and then I'm like, oh, this is interesting. Oh and
then you know, so it's kind of like I don't know,
I'm very like hot and cold with him. But when

(39:39):
I when I saw Zodiac, I was like, absolutely fantastic,
and I was like, this has to be his best movie.
I don't know, is it because it's the Underdog. I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah, it is sort of his most like it is
kind of a non commercial movie in some ways. Yeah,
because it is just so long and boring in the
best possible way. But yeah, I I have kind of
a similar relationship to David Fincher that you have. I'm
a little hot and cold on him. I like seven.

(40:13):
I really liked Fight Club when I was in high school.
I need to rewatch that because I'm like, bro, I'm
just like curious what my reaction to it would be. Now.
I really liked The Social Network when that came out,
and I liked Gone Girl a lot. I also liked
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and but I really did

(40:35):
not like Mank really Yeah, and I thought The Killer
was pretty good. The Killer was pretty too, But I
would I would say he's like not my He's not
I don't really like hold him. I like a lot
of his movies, but I don't like love him like
like some people are like love him as a like director,

(40:55):
like I don't. I'm a tour I don't really like
hold him in a personal place in my heart. I
guess this is what I would say. But he is
the thing that I do sort of find his whole thing.
He's famous for taking like one hundred takes of every scene.
Is he and actors really get annoyed with him? And

(41:18):
Robert Downey Junior said on this movie because Jake Jonenhall
was like getting really irritated filming this movie. And Robert
Downey Junior said, I just decided, aside from several times
I wanted to grow to him, which means strangle him,
that I was going to give him what he wanted.
I think I'm a perfect person to work for him
because I understand goologs. That's Robert Downey Junior's quote about

(41:40):
working on this movie. So I don't know. I think
that like sort of Stanley Kubrick style of filmmaking and
directing is a little like corny and outdated. Like being
this like dictator on the set I think is kind
of bad for the film industry. But he doesn't. He's

(42:03):
not like a cancelable director or anything. But I do
find that kind of attitude obnoxious.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
I guess, yeah, I do. I do think that that's
probably pretty annoying. I also think, at the same time,
Mike do I feel sorry for Jake jollen Hall having
to do one hundred takes in Zodiac, I'm like, I
don't know, he's hot, he's famous, he dated Taylor Show, So.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
What's he got to complain about?

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Oh, this is your only job. Hey, I wish my
job could be an awesome dude in an awesome movie.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
My wife is very attracted to him. That's another thing
that he's got going for him.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
This is the hot This is a high era of
Jake g I would say too.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Yeah, because I like Jake Jillen Hall.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Yeah, I'm also kind of hot and cold with him
too in that interesting Yeah, I don't know, Like there
are times where I'm like, oh, he's cute, and like
in Zodia, I was like, he's adorable this movie, adorable
as he could be in a movie about a serial killer, right,
But then there are times where I'm like, yeah, I
don't really like him very much. But it's it's hard
because it's like again, like I don't know, Like this

(43:09):
movie is so chalk full of like dudes, right, Like
all these dudes that sinophile types have opinions about, including RDJ,
will get to that. I'm sure Mark Ruffalo people fucking
love Mark Ruffalo. I actually think he's fantastic in this movie,
by the way, But you put it all together and

(43:30):
you're kind of like, Okay, like, what's if I can do?
I need to strip back my personal opinions about people
in the context of like sinophilia and just try to
see it for what it is, because unfortunately it colors
your opinions about things like the ways in which people
talk about certain actors and directors that are quote unquote artists,

(43:54):
this kind of stuff, and you're, you know, sometimes you're
just like negatively affected by it.

Speaker 3 (44:01):
Right, Sometimes fans of things negatively affect the thing itself, yes,
and that's unfortunate. You know. Christopher Nolan is kind of
a similar type of director in my mind as David Fincher,
and I like a lot of Christopher Nolan movies, but
his fans are really annoying to me, and it makes
me want to seek out his movies.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
Last well, I mean, we talked about it a bit,
we were talking about PTA and one battle after another,
it's like this.

Speaker 4 (44:25):
You know.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
It's like I show up at a movie theater and
there's three hundred other dudes there and I'm just like, Okay,
I see what this is. Even though I love Pta
and I am a huge fan of a lot of
his movies. It's just, you know, it's that thing. I
don't feel like I'm punching down by saying suck it up,
Jake Chillenhall or something. But I also think it is annoying.

(44:48):
I would I would think to be an actor and
to have somebody make new things over and over.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
And over again. Yeah, all right, I'm gonna move on
to the next section here. So a cab driver, Paul Stein,
is killed by the Zodiac in San Francisco. The Zodiac
has entered the city because up until now it's been
sort of in these counties outside of San Francisco. So
Dave Toski played by Mark Ruffalo and his partner Bill

(45:13):
Armstrong played by Anthony Edwards are assigned to the case.
So this is where these two guys enter the picture.
And I like them immediately. Yes, Mark ruf Dave Tosky.
He loves animal crackers, so do I. You know. The
Zodiac demands also to talk to famed attorney Melvin Belli

(45:33):
played by Brian Cox on TV, and they do this
on TV. Melvin Belli is like Zodiac call in and
the Zodiac allegedly calls in, but it's unclear if it's
actually him, which is kind of an ongoing thing. Who
is the Zodiac? Was this an actual message from the
Zodiac or a copycat? It's hard to know. But the

(45:58):
Zodiac also sent a piece of the dead cab driver's
blooded shirt too, Reporter Paul Avery. So now Robert Donney
Junior's character is actually getting male from the Zodiac killer.
What do you think of RDJ?

Speaker 1 (46:17):
God, why are you asking me all these like film
school shithead questions today?

Speaker 3 (46:23):
Why are you asking me all these questions about movies?

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Well, it's like, Okay, I need to stay for the
record that I've not seen the Iron Man movies. Okay,
I don't know RDYJ in his current form, which is
that he's a Marvel guy. Okay, Yeah, I know him
from eighties movies like Weird Science, which I think he

(46:48):
was great in despite people's feelings about Weird Science. But
I grew up with him in these movies in like
the Less Than Zero's and the pick Up Artists and stuff. Right,
So that's the charisma that I remember him having as
an actor, which I feel like he has just continued
to do throughout his career, right, so really you're like, Okay,

(47:12):
well he's kind of the same dude. Maybe he's not
that way in chaplain, but you know what I mean,
Like for the most part, like when he's not like
stuck in an impression of someone and he's allowed to
just be himself, like that base character base him is
great to me. I think he's charming and funny and
and I think that in Zodiac it's the best, one

(47:34):
of the best representations of that personality. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (47:39):
I agree. I like the whole RDJ thing. I think
he's charming and funny. But there are movies where it
feels like the inmates are running the asylum and he
has been taken off the chain, and I feel like
the movie suffers as a result. I remember seeing Home
for the Holidays. Do you remember that Thanksgiving movie from
nineteen ninety five, directed by Jodie Foster, Uh huh. I

(48:00):
feel like RDJ was really allowed to let loose in
that one, and it just felt like out of control.
So this I felt like was the best use of him,
because it was he was, you know, under the thumb
of David Fincher, but still so charming and funny, but
within the confines of the movie more it felt like
it was being utilized properly in this movie, so I

(48:23):
enjoyed having him in it.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yeah, he plays his character is kind of like a
bohemian newspaper reporter, has droken alcohol problems, yes, but he's
kind of just like this. I don't know that. He's
got this like zestiness to him that is just really
fun and it kind of breaks up the other characters

(48:45):
in the movie who were kind of a little less quirky.
I mean, they all have their quirks. I mean, animal crackers,
Are you kidding me? But like you know, he has
he's kind of the most Sam francisco Ish kind of guy.
Yeah you know what I mean of a hippie.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
This really made me want to go to San Francisco,
and I haven't spend like any time there, but it
sort of seems like a place. It seems like the
city doesn't exist anymore, or like people don't move there
in the way that people like, you know, I just
know a lot of people who are like, oh, I
moved to Portland, Oregon, or I moved to New York

(49:23):
or La or Austin. These sort of like destination cities
to like find themselves or start over. And I feel
like San Francisco used to be kind of on that list,
but now it's just such a Silicon valley, which people city.
It makes me sad that this really original, famous city

(49:44):
is not what it once was.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, I mean, you cannot deny that the tech industry
pretty much ruined San Francisco, you know, in a lot
of yeahs. I used to go there. I went there
a couple times in my like early twenties. That's when
I went to that mod party that I talked about
during the dig episode. Yeah. Yeah, And I mean I

(50:07):
had had such a fondness for it because it was, like,
you know, I was really into like beat poetry, writers
and counterculture and this kind of stuff. And then I
would visit every so often for work and things like that.
And yeah, I mean I think it I think it
was different. I was having a different experience I think

(50:27):
than I was saying like nineteen ninety eight, right.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
But it's interesting in the context of films because San
Francisco is a place where a lot of crime movies
have happened.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
I mean it's like, yeah, I mean we talked about
this on I can't remember what we talked about on
what noir movie we were talking about, but it was like,
what cities do noir movies take place in? It's like
La New York, San Francisco. Yeah, And you know, and it's.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Funny because I feel like San Francisco. Like, for example,
if you think about seven, let's just talk about seven,
the other David Finch movie that takes place in like
what Seattle or something like that.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Where it's like an unnamed city, right, but it's like
you it's definitely Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
It rains constantly, you know, and you're like, oh, yeah,
I mean this is depressing. Of course, crime happens here
San Francisco. There's a lot of crime films that are
set in San Francisco, right, And I think about it
in terms of, like, wow, what a city to be
kind of in movies, like this representation of like gritty

(51:29):
like cops and you know, crimes. And then you know,
it's like you think about it in terms of having
this big like hippie history and the idea that now
there's like the tech industry there, and you're like, why
was a lot of like why was Verdigo shot in
San Francisco, or like why was you know whatever the

(51:51):
conversation or point blank, like you know all these kind
of gritty, these kind of gritty movies happening in this
place of peace, love and happiness, I suppose, but.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
The weather's really unpredictable in San Francisco. By the way,
I've never been to a city in my life where
I've had to buy clothes as much as I have.
I swear to go every time I go to services school,
I have to buy clothes because I'm like not dressed, right.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Yeah. They talked about that with like a Candlestick Park,
which is where the forty nine ers used to play,
and they were like, it was the coldest vortex in
the on the planet. It was like even on a
nice day, it was like you had to wear like
a full winter jacket in there for some reason.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yeah, yeah, no, it was. It's I always have to
buy scarves and hats and jackets sometimes. And I don't know,
I love it. I love going there, but it's it's
such an interesting, interesting place and yeah, I don't know,
Like and I think about it in terms of the
zodiac too, you're like sixty nine you know, a Zodiac

(52:55):
killer rolling around up there. You're like, yeah, it's kind
of that feeling of I mean, they play like, they
play the song throughout the film, but that Donovan song
the Hurdy Gurdy Man, which I think is the perfect
creepy hippie song to play.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
Okay, I'm gonna move on to the next section, which
this whole secon The next section, I feel like, is
just this one scene, which is where they interview Arthur
Lee Allen played by John Carroll Lynch. Now we have
detectives Toski and Armstrong. That's Mark Ruffalo and Anthony Edwards,
but we also have Jack Mullenax who's a sergeant, and

(53:32):
that he's played by Elius Cotias and the great Elias Cotiis.
He's in so many movies. I love Exotica, Crash.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Some kind of wonderful, what are you fucking kid me?

Speaker 3 (53:42):
Some kind of wonderful, The Thin Red Line. So they
interview this guy, Arthur Lee Allen also known as Lee Allen,
and there are all of these kind of uh, what
do you call it when it's not a hard piece
of evidence, but it's a circumstantial lots of circumstantial evidence,

(54:03):
like he was near Lake Barriessa when the couple was killed.
He had bloodied knives in his car at the time
that they were stabbed, but he says they're unrelated. He
knows all these references that are like specific to the zodiac.
He has a watch that has the zodiac sign on it.

(54:24):
And this is like, I think this is such a
center point of the entire movie, this whole scene, and
it was chilling. I don't know, what did you think
about this scene? I thought it was incredible. I think
this like really puts things into focus, this whole scene.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
You know how sometimes you just catch a vibe from
a creepy dude. Yes, and you're like, that guy's murdered people,
no question.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
This is how I think about that when I'm at
I think about that when I'm at Disneyland. Unlike, somebody
here has killed somebody. There is someone here who has
gotten away with murder. And I may have brushed past him. Yeah,
I might have just been sending in line at the
turtle stand behind. Yeah, but yes, I hear your say.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
This is how I felt basically about Arthur Lee Allen
as played by John Carroll Lynch, which, by the way,
Sir John Carroll Lynch, Sir, I'm sure you're an incredibly
nice man, a wonderful actor, but you played the fuck
out of this role to the degree which I cannot
see you as a normal character at all.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
He has a there's a scene at near the end
of the movie where he has a look that really
he like, I was like, this is acting because he
is sending me messages just with like a little look
in his face that is frightening me. Yeah, like unbelievable.
He's so good in this.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
This is the thing about the movie that I think
is really interesting is that Hammer's home the idea of
these people that have all of these things that they
think are pointing to who they want to be the person.
Like they're like, we have this, this, this, this and
this in my life everyday life. I would you know,

(56:10):
And I'm and I'm just saying with zero stakes, like
if you told me, oh, my friend is dating this
guy who did this, this, this, this, this is red flags,
I'd be like, all right, dump him, right. I mean,
if I'm using all of this circumstantial evidence quote unquote
to like tell my friend that her boyfriend sucks or something,
you know, But to the degree which happens in this film,

(56:33):
which is basically police officers who are sort of doing
that thing where they're like, but we have him, here's
what we have. And then somebody having to be like,
actually that means nothing.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Like it's not don't prove Yeah. Yeah. And then you
couple that.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
With someone who's just a fucking creep, which that gets
fleshed out a lot when they go and visit his
fucking trailer, which there was a c there was a
brief shot in that movie that shook me to the
core which we might talk about but.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Wait, say it now where they go and they go
and look in his trailer and it's full of squirrels.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Full of squirrels, and like Anthony Edwards looks down by
the bed and sees this fucking dildo with like what
crisco or something on the floor, which I never noticed
before until I saw it this time that I was
shook as fuck seeing that I could not handle it.

(57:33):
I could not.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
Handle it, Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (57:35):
Ah.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
But yeah, I mean, this is the thing is that
it's like, okay, like this is you know, in the aggregate,
this is the creepiest man to ever live. But is
he the Zodiac killer. Unfortunately, nobody can actually prove any
of it, which is why the case is still unsolved.
And it's just fascinating to me because that's the thing
about what David Fincher does in the movie that makes

(57:58):
the movie so appealing to me is that he's like
working it out in real time.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
You know, Like there's the absolutely the part where the
Mark Ruffalo character is told by Jermott mulroney that it's
not him, and he just like takes his jacket and
just walks out of the office like he's just I
can't believe it. You know.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
There goes everything that I thought, my work, my life,
you know this.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
Yeah, he says that thing where he's like, I don't
know if I wanted it to be him because I
thought it was him, or if I just want this
to be over.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Yes, And I just I felt the frustration of that
because it's like again, it's it's just probably an unbelievable
feeling to just feel like it's not it isn't what
you thought, yeah, despite all of your hard work.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
Or you're like, this is definitely him, I just can't
prove it. Yeah, Like that's what the thing is. It's
like I it is him, you know, but you can't
prove it really.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Oh, I wanted to tell you about the animal crackers thing.
This is a detective Toski thing, which it's kind of
a runner in the I don't really think it lands
one hundred percent, to be honest.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
I think it's really corny and I think it doesn't work.
It's kind of like this is his little quark.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
And it's like, plus, I don't like plain animal crackers
are like iceed animal crackers.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
I like them both.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Yeah, good for you, but yeah, it's it kind of
wears thin or all over the time. But I do
like the Mark Ruffalo is so great in this film.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
And and him and Anthony Edwards together are really good.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Yeah, I think well, and I want to ask you
this too, because we're talking about these detectives. We haven't
even really talked about the Jake Gillenhall character, which we will.
The thing that I think is interesting I like to
call this movie it's basically This Zodiac is essentially the
heat of serial killer movies, if you think about it,
because not only is an ensemble cast of cool bros,

(59:52):
but they're all like completely obsessed with this crime to
the dismay of their families. And it's like you got
multiple wives in this film that are like, you're too obsessed,
get out of the game. Ended right, in the same
way that Heat is like all of those all of

(01:00:12):
those girlfriends and wives are trying to pull them out
of the game.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
But it's like they're too obsessed.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
Yeah, And in this film, I understand why they're obsessed.
Like it like that is communicated to me perfectly where
I'm like, oh, I couldn't give this up either if
I was.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Then Yeah, it is interesting because I feel like Heat
it's kind of adrenaline thing. It's a high that they
are they're addicted to, where this it does feel like
more for a purpose or something like, and it's like
so much more infuriated. Yeah, It's like it's not they're

(01:00:50):
not doing it for pleasant reason. It's not like they're
getting joy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
It's a quest and I would be obsessed with the quest.
I couldn't still to be in that whatever, that factory
that Arthur Lee Allen is working in when they go
and visit him and interrogate him. Couldn't stand to sit
there feeling like I was like, I know this guy
did it and he's just smug as fuck, Like he's

(01:01:17):
like he has this line right before he like goes
back to work where he's basically like, I long for
the day where cops are no longer considered pigs or something. Yeah,
And it just made me nostalgic for when we called
cops pigs.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Let's bring it back. I feel like we should there.
I love I.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Grew up in the generation by the way, which I
feel like was completely informed by skateboarding, which is we
cops were pigs and then they also were obsessed with donuts.
That was like the two jokes. Yeah, that existed when
I was a teenager about cops, and I was like,
we should bring.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
That back, bring it back. I feel like they do
that on Wayne's World. Yeah, they like see that cop
in the donut job and they're like something seems like bacon.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Yeah exactly. It's like, if you want to find all
the cops, they're hanging out in the donut shop. That's
what the Bangles said, and walk like an Egyptian. And
these are just jokes that I grew up with it.
I feel like they don't exist anymore. Like now everybody
says like a cab or whatever, which is fine, but like,
go back to the donut joke. I love that joke.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
Yeah, let's go back to the donut joke. I like this,
it seems more effective. Are uh is okay if I
move on to the last section here that I have Yeah, okay.
So four years pass, nothing happens. The case has essentially
gone cold, but everyone is haunted by it. Like MILLI
was saying, Paul Avery has become a full blown alcoholic.
He lives on a boat. Robert gray Smith he has

(01:02:51):
decided he's like going through a divorce. He's losing his
wife is walking out on him. He's decided to take
up this investigation by himself because he is a civilian.
But he knows so much about the case. And part
of the problem with the initial investigation is that there
were all these jurisdictions that had to communicate to each
other and were like withholding evidence from each other because
the murders happened across all these counties. Basically, so gray Smith,

(01:03:14):
as a civilian, is able to go to all these
jurisdictions and collect evidence. There's a very frightening scene where
he goes to this guy, Bob Vaughn's house, played by
Charles Fleischer, and it turns out that his handwriting matches
the zodiac or is a very close match, and he
ends up in the basement of this guy. It's a

(01:03:35):
very scary scene.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
It's a famous.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Yeah, I think that's the scene people bring up with
this movie a lot. But anyways, Jake Jillenhall is talking
all these cops and he's they can't convict anybody. They
just can't. But if you put together a book that
takes all the evidence, you can point to somebody basically

(01:03:59):
who did it. And all this circumstantial evidence points to
Lee Allen, And towards the end of the movie, Jake
Jillenhall goes to where Lee Allen is working and is
like just staring at him. He just wants to look
at him and see him, because he says something earlier

(01:04:21):
in the movie where he's like, I just want to
go look at the zodiac, look at the zodiac, and
he says something like I think I'd know if he
did it if I saw him, or something like that.
Doesn't he say something like that earlier in the movie,
And him and John Carroll Lynch sort of stare at
each other, and this is the scene I was referring
to and John Carroll Lynch looks fucking horrifying. He looks

(01:04:42):
so scary, and I'm like, in that moment, I'm like, yeah,
he did it. But then later also Mike Migeaux, who
is the survivor of the very first killing, he picks
Lee Allen out of a lineup and is like, that's
the guy who shot me. So yeah, Zodiac.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Ah man, Well yeah, this is when I think, like
the movie really starts to focus on Robert gray Smith
as like the Jake Jillett Hall.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
He's not in the movie for a long period of time.
In fact, when he came back, I was like, oh, Jake,
I missed you. He was gone. He was like gone
from the movie for all.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Yeah, he was kind of peppered in with the other boys.
But then you know, it starts to become really about
him because he's the one that wrote the book that
the movie's based off of. But also like he's kind
of the one like everybody is exhausted by this fucking
case that they're just like, I wash my hands of it.
There's so much else happening in San Francisco. I don't

(01:05:38):
give a fuck about the Zodiac anymore. He hasn't written
us in like twenty years or whatever. It's like, you know,
they're all over it. But like Robert gray Smith, the
Jake Gillenhall character is basically like, come on, boys, we
got we got stuff. I gotta go back to the library.
There's all this evidence that we didn't think about. And
at the same time, he decides to like form a

(01:05:58):
relationship with a woman that he goes on a date with,
who is played by Chloe seventy and like, I think
she looked fantastic in this movie. She was so authentically seventies.
In fact, I was like, you know what, they could
actually be my parents if we think about it from
like my parents, when did they get married in seventy

(01:06:19):
one or something like that. Like I was like that,
could they could be my mom and dad for all
I know?

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
And you does part of you wish they were?

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
No, I like my mom and dad, but you know,
in a movie, in a movie context, sure they're my
mom and dad. But I wanted to ask you this
because I always thought this was so funny. They go
on on the first date and like he's so wrapped
up in the zodiac that she's just like fuck, this
is our entire first date. I guess I'm just.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Gonna hang Yeah, well, you obsess over the zodiac and
make phone calls and wait for a phone call from
Robert done ju Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Right, And I kept thinking to myself, I'd probably do
that too. Actually, I would be like if it listen,
if I was on a first date with a guy
that's like, I'm hunting the Zodiac, I'd be like, sure,
I'll go. I'll go anywhere with you, would you?

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
Yeah? Oh? You know. If I met my wife Tricia,
we went on a date and she's like, I'm hunting
the Zodiac, I would have been like, I'm I'm there
with you. What do you need? Get coffee?

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I'm saying, like, who was? Who in the fuck is
gonna be like, god, red flag, I don't know about this.
I'm going home. I'd be like where, let me help you, Like,
let's ride out, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
I'm not do you need animal crackers?

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
I could go get something, you know, I'm like in
it to win it. I was like, what a great
first date story.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
By the way, I you know, it's interesting watching Jake
Jollenholl's character. He's obsessed, obsessed with finding the zodiac. I
don't have that drive I could. This couldn't be me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
It could definitely be me. I would fall down this
rabbit hole. You think that looking up gray Goo on
Wikipedia was bad? I would be so fucking obsessed. I mean,
they're like, I'm surprised that I'm not just like an
amateur sleuth on Reddit.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
To be honest, yeah, I'm surprised your walls don't have
a bunch of red yarn connecting a bunch of photographs.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
I think I have too many hobbies. If I could
whittle it down, though, If I could, you know, basically
shut off a lot of my extracurriculars and just focus
on like one thing like that, I'd be fucking great
at it. Because I gotta tell you, I love busting
people like I have done.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
Bust. It makes you feel good, bust it makes me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Feel not just good, but great. You have no idea
how many times in my life where I have like
figured out that like a coworker or somebody is like
like a real slimeball shthead, or like you know, somebody's
boyfriend was like cheating, or like I'm the one that
loves evidence. I'm like, yo, bring it to me, I'll
put it on my murder board, like I'll tie the

(01:09:01):
strings together. I get a fucking thrill out of it.
So I'm sitting here watching this movie going, man, I
would be in the hole with.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
I mean, I just really would.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
One thing that I think we got to talk about,
and this is just because this character is extremely triggering.
Is that Bob von Guy movie lover, cinema shithead.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Bob you might listen to our podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Yeah, he is the cinema shithead of Zodiac works at
a silent movie I mean, come on.

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
I know, like.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
Movie theater.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Yes, I know, like ten guys like Bob Lan. I
mean you don't know one dude from all your years
living in La.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Yeah, oh absolutely, come on, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
And specifically silent film dudes. Oh my god, that's so funny,
very interesting. I knew that guy was somehow involved from
the moment he was like, Hey, you want to come
back to my house. I'm like, Nope, I wouldn't. What
do you doing, Robert, that's crazy. Don't go to this

(01:10:15):
guy's house.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
He is a going down. Let's go down to the basement.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
He's a silent film collector. What are you kid me?
He's probably got mummies down there. Yeah, And that is
why that part of the movie is so creepy, is
what do he the fucking terrifying light bulb that goes off?
And Jake Joenhall's characters her He's like, oh, no, I
write those posters after he had just spent like the

(01:10:39):
last week or so proving that the handwriting was the
zodiacs he had writing, and he's like, no, it's the
guy that I'm sitting in this creepy house. Yeah, with
he's his handwriting. Oh fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):
It's interesting because he's like he finds out it's like, oh,
the guy I think could potentially be the Zodiac. I
am sitting across the table from him in his kitchen,
so I've made this discovery. And then Bob Vaughn's like,
let's go to the basement to check my records, and
Jake Jillenhall's like okay. And I think that was really

(01:11:11):
interesting because I'm like, do you want to get killed
by the Zodiac? Like part of me felt like Jake
Jillenhall's character was like, I want I want to go
to the end to see where this goes, you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Know, I want to be a victim as basically, yeah,
I have to say that this is a type of situation.
This is, and this is at multiple points in the
film where as a single person of a certain age,
you are quivering in your boots that you're not somebody
like this.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Do you know what I'm saying, That you're not Bob
Vaughn or the.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Zodiac or some fucking freak that is tangentially related to
a serial killer, because you're like, these are just middle
aged people who live alone, who have passions like old movies,
and you're like, oh no, and now they're creepy as
fuck and being investigated because they know people who are

(01:12:11):
creepy as fuck, which do you know how the creeps
I know come on Like it's just scary. It's scary
when you see a lifestyle that is sort of similar
to yours on a screen. It can in a crime
film and you're like, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
In connection to a brutal serial killer. So you're saying
you're worried that the FBI is gonna come knocking on
your door, and it's like, we have some questions about
this guy you that's in your circle. I mean sort of.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
It's more that somebody like Jake Jillenhall would come to
my house and think I was a creep because they're like, oh,
do you realize how many fucking DVDs this woman has?

Speaker 3 (01:12:54):
Like, ugh, there's an a lend a lawn life size
cutout in her home. I'm scared, That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
It's like people are getting the rock impression of me,
that I'm this like fucked up person, and I'm like abnormal.
I promise. I just collect weird things sometimes, like hats
and rock t shirts and.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Oh my god, wow, that's a that's a read of
this movie. I wasn't prepared to hear this.

Speaker 1 (01:13:21):
And this is why our podcasts exists.

Speaker 3 (01:13:23):
Okay, oh man? Any other final thoughts on The Zodiac Well.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
I would like to ask you who do you think
the Zodiac Killer is.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
I think that one of the things I like about
this movie is that, yes, it's open ended, like they
throughout the movie there are several actors playing the Zodiac Killer, sure,
and you never see their face, but it's like different
voices and stuff, so you're not sure. But this movie
also is basically like it's Lee l Like, I mean,
it's pretty pointed towards this one guy. Yeah, which I

(01:13:56):
I'm glad they took that point of view, that it's
like it does like evidence would point to this man.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
Yeah, I will say that I believe that that's true too.
I mean, like I said, without having done hard research
on the case and really just has seen David Fincher Zodiac,
I will say all signs points to Lee Allen. I
hate that he has taken the Most Dangerous Game and
has sullied it. The movie by the way, because have

(01:14:24):
you ever seen.

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
The movie The Most Dangerous I haven't seen the movie with.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
My boyfriend Joel McCrae nineteen thirty two. Oh Ray, fantastic
pre code. You gotta watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
But it's all I'll check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
It's now become the like shorthand for murderers and such.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Yeah, I think I uh read the book in high
school with the story it's based on.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
But well do I I don't like that there's a
lot of old movie creeps that are being implicated in
this fandango. But I do think that Lee Allen did it.
Probably who knows?

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
It does seem like it, but yeah, who knows, who knows?
But man, what a film. Really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
I'm glad you like it now. I'm glad you like
it now because I love it. I think y'all should
all watch it. It's great.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
It's a joy to take a movie from my dislike
Calum and put it in my love call telling you
you know, so, it's a treat for me. All Right,
we're back and it's time for some gripes, scropes and grits. Grabs,

(01:15:36):
groups and grits, grabs, groups and grits. I got something
that's making me obsave, all right, So we got a
few here, Hi, Millian Casey. I recently listened to your
episode about eight twenty four films at mid and Midsommer.

(01:16:00):
The conversation at the end regarding various films that have
won awards but haven't left a lasting mark on the
cultural zeitgeist made me wonder about the inverse, which films
from recent years or any number of years ago, did
not receive any awards slash critical acclaim upon their release,
but later became significant in our culture and continue to

(01:16:22):
influence the film industry today. Thanks for reading my question,
and I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks again, Elena
from Boston. Huh Zodiac.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
I feel like we just talked about one.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
I mean there's so many. I mean, like I'm a
cult movie person. Yeah, you know, think about like how
many shitty movies quote unquote that have now become classics.
I mean it's like Rocky Horror Picture Show or anything.
Just name it, Like I mean John Waters is you know,
like has this that is in the museum world and

(01:17:06):
you know is on a Criterion collection. And I mean
it's like everybody got their just desserts in that way.
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
Yeah. I'm trying to think of any that are like
came out in like recent years that would that I
think will be big or important that just nobody or
got very little fan fair.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I mean it's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
I mean I feel like there are movies that have
influenced the kind of visual culture that we have now
that are like, you know, I don't know, like stylistically,
like you think about stuff like Natural Born Killers or like,
you know, nineties movies that have like lasted to where

(01:17:54):
the visual style of them has continued, like Terror. I
would say Tarantino movies are that way. You know, there's
a lot of that kind of stuff that has persisted
in even in social media and commercials and that kind
of stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
There's I mean, there's so many movies that just get
missed because they'd come out at the wrong time or
people aren't ready for them, and I don't know, it's
this is hard, this is this is like a research paper.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
Yeah, I mean I think I think that cult movies
are kind of ripe for that kind of stuff because
a lot of times they are purposely or you know,
kind of destined to be obscure because they're quote unquote
badly made, low budget, you know, made by maniacs. But
then at some point the movie persists and it kind

(01:18:44):
of jumps from the kind of cult audience to like
mainstream culture, right.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
Yeah, I mean I think about like even stuff like
Penelopece Versus to Cloud of Western civilization documentaries and that
kind of stuff where it's like, you know, you see
elements of those films in a lot of stuff now.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
So, yeah, Jennifer's Body another movie we've covered on the show.
I feel like was critically panned at the time, and
it's become a huge cult classic, Like people really love
that movie now. So that's another one. But yeah, thank
you Elena for the question. All right, Millie, I have
a voicemailing going to play here for you.

Speaker 5 (01:19:25):
Dear Milly and Casey, thank you so so much for
your film advice. I need your help and your expert
advice and navigation as I venture into American Western movies. Obviously,
everything and beyond American cinema I would take. But let's

(01:19:46):
just say that my inn here is Tombstone and Val
Kilmer acting his gorgeous, gorgeous RP King, but Val Kilmer
acting his gorgeous gorgeous.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
Ass off as Doc Holiday.

Speaker 5 (01:20:01):
See. Now, if people told me that Western movies could
be full of complex, bizarre worlds and strange character work,
you know what, I maybe would have tapped in a
lot sooner. Okay, but this is why I need your guidance.

Speaker 3 (01:20:18):
Please.

Speaker 5 (01:20:19):
Thank you so very much.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Casey.

Speaker 5 (01:20:23):
You're doing an insanely good job. I absolutely love the
dialogue between you two. Millie. Thank you so so much.
Your laugh makes me laugh. And anyway, long story, love
you guys. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
Thank you Christina for the voicemail, Millie, do you have
any Western suggestions that Christina can start off with?

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
Do you want my top ten top five shit I'm
not gonna rank them. I'm not gonna rank them. I'm
just gonna I'm gonna start listing them out. I love
western and I swear I started liking them after I
started working at TCM, because I actually began to understand

(01:21:09):
them more. When I was younger, I thought they were
all boring and really American, and you know, there's a
lot of problematic elements to Westerns. American Westerns for sure, absolutely,
But I again, we were talking about the tempo of
films and how your patience for them changes over the years.

(01:21:33):
I think Westerns became appealing to me as I got older,
because I just like the way that they're rolled out.
The acting is, you know a lot of times very understated.
It's like these kind of morality tales, a lot of
great character actors and just sort of like, I don't know,
the scenery of a Western, the desert. I mean, when

(01:21:55):
I lived in California, I was like, this is fantastic,
Like I love you know, the john Ford shot in
National Parks vibes and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
So let me throw some out please.

Speaker 1 (01:22:10):
I would say, watch red River from nineteen forty eight
starring Montgomery Cliff and John Wayne. Great film about kind
of like old school versus new school cowboys, and Montgomery
Cliff is fantastic in it and probably one of his
best roles ever. I would be remiss if I didn't

(01:22:31):
mention Johnny Guitar from nineteen fifty four, probably like one
of the best feminist masterpieces of film, Nicholas Ray Joan Crawford.
I'm gonna also go with if you've never seen stage
Coach the originals like nineteen thirty nine with John Wayne
and Claire Trevor. Stage Coach is fantastic. Like I mean,

(01:22:55):
say what you want about John Wayne, and I promise
I have a lot to say about him, but you know,
some of these movies are that he's made over the
years really are great and he happens to be in them,
if you know what I mean. Uh more newish stuff.
Mccab and Missus Miller Robert Altman nineteen seventy one really great,

(01:23:19):
like such a vibe, like an amazing movie. I would say,
if you should watch, you should watch McCay and Missus
Miller and then watch like some Sam Peck and Paul
movies like The Wild Bunch. Absolutely, you gotta watch the
Treasure of the Siarah Madre nineteen forty eight, Humphrey Bogart,
Tim Holt, Walter Houston. I mean this is important, Like

(01:23:43):
everybody talks about the Treasure of Siera Madre being like
a classic important Hollywood film. It totally is. It is,
it stands the hype. You've gotta watch it. Another kind
of like revisionists cea Western thing along the lines of mcay,
but missus Miller and the Peck and Pall stuff is
Butch Cassidy and so the dance Kid. You cannot go

(01:24:04):
wrong with Redford Newman, Charm, Pizza Arm, what else? Who else?

Speaker 3 (01:24:13):
Oh? I think that? Yes, yes, of course, of course by.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
The High Country Randolph Scott and my aforementioned boyfriend Joel McCrae,
a meditation on aging. It is fantastic. Honestly, could keep going.
I mean I love Western so much. I mean, you
got I didn't even mention like the Man from Laramie
and Magnificent seven, and even like the freakin Sergio Leoni movies.

Speaker 3 (01:24:42):
I mean, there's so much, so much that's a that's
a great place to start.

Speaker 1 (01:24:48):
I think I would watch Hood Hud nineteen sixty three
of Paul Newman. Okay, promise I'm gonna shut up now. Okay,
that's enough, right, that's a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:24:56):
That was more than enough. That was actually two men, Christine,
I hope that was helpful.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Me too, Me too.

Speaker 3 (01:25:06):
Okay, we have one more of this. One's quick. Hi
Millie Casey.

Speaker 4 (01:25:11):
This is Sydney, this is Lauren, and we have a
long standing film feud for you both, really an argument
that's been going on for years, and we'd like you
to be the deciding factor of why I'm right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:25):
I'm right.

Speaker 4 (01:25:26):
So Night More Before Christmas Tim Burton classic, uh huh,
classic Halloween movie, classic Christmas movie. So we need your
advice and your expertise and your input and your opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
And it might not change our opinions, but it will, right.

Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
It will solidify the right answer for Night Before Christmas
being a Halloween movie. So if you could answer this
question for us, that would be great, really appreciated.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
We love it, Thank you, thank you, We love you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
Guys. Okay, I don't know if you have an opinion
on this. There's a well choreographed voicemail by the way,
under a minute.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
Yeah, it was like a duo. They're adorable.

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
Yeah, that was very cute. I love that I have
a definitive answer to this. Do you have any opinion
on that?

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
I want you to say you're definitive answer.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
It's a Halloween movie. It's spooky, it takes place in
Halloween Town predominantly. It is the same plot as how
the Grin Stole Christmas kind of, but it's it's you know,
Halloween is always sort of in conversation with Christmas because
it's kind of these two huge holidays that are like
beating up on Thanksgiving, And uh, I don't know, it's

(01:26:43):
it's a spooky movie. It's one hundred percent a Halloween movie.
That is my final decision on that. What do you think, MILLI, Well,
like Santa Claus is in it, right, yeah, so it
can't be a Christmas movie. Would you watch this on Christmas? Sure?
Why the fuck not? I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:00):
Like again, it goes back to the like real low
stakes of a Christmas movie. If we can call Zodiac
Christmas movie, why the fuck are we not called The
Nightmare before Christmas a Christmas movie?

Speaker 3 (01:27:12):
Would you say it? But it's it's more a Halloween movie.

Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
Though, okay, But also the idea that there is just
simply a Christmas tinge to it means you can watch
it on Christmas. In my opinion, if we're going by
the current metrics of what makes a Christmas movie a
Christmas movie, I mean maybe this is another alons Old
all Day question. I'm just trying to provide a counterbalance

(01:27:36):
to this definitive answer that you'd give it. Like you've
got the definitive answer.

Speaker 3 (01:27:43):
It's would you classify it a Christmas movie or a
Halloween movie? And I would definitively classify it as a
Halloween movie, I guess in my estimation. But you know
what you think otherwise, And.

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Well, I'm just saying the I think basing it on
the current metrics of what makes a Christmas movie, which
is that you just need like zero point zero one
percent of Christmas vibes and it becomes a Christmas movie.
So by that standard, I would call this a Christmas movie.

(01:28:18):
Do I think that it has more Halloween in it? Sure,
but there's also more sex in Eyes Wide Shut than
there is Christmas, and people watch on Christmas. I think
there's more explosions than die Hard. I also watch Holiday also,
I think there's more explosions in die Hard than there

(01:28:40):
is Christmas, and yet people watch die Hard on Christmas?

Speaker 3 (01:28:43):
Do you know? Do you understand what I'm saying. I
don't think we helped Sydney or Lauren, but.

Speaker 1 (01:28:48):
We picked, we picked sides, and I feel like we
provided a swath of opinions.

Speaker 3 (01:28:54):
So sure, yeah, Okay, Well, thank you for everyone who
wrote and called in, please continue to do so. All right,
it is time for Employees Picks, where we pick movie
recommendations based on the theme of the episode. Billy, what
is your employee pick?

Speaker 1 (01:29:10):
Well, this is a layup this week because I really
don't feel like giving you something that's like super obscure.
But I'm gonna pick Silence of the Lambs from nineteen
ninety one who Jonathan Demi, also about a serial killer,
also a crime procedural film. What have I not said

(01:29:30):
about the Silence of the Lambs. It's a great film.
Rewatched it, like semi recently in a theater and was
scared to death as I was when I was watching Zodiac.
So these are like both like movies that are extremely
effective many years after and yeah, that's a mark of

(01:29:51):
a good movie to me. So I don't know if
you haven't seen it for some reason. You should watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:29:56):
Great movie putting the pieces together. It's thrilling. Yes, I
also have a layup this week and it is All
the President's Men from nineteen seventy six, a great newspaper movie.
And I would consider Zodiac a great newspaper movie. There's
such a high of like a guy going around interviewing,
getting all these like little details and it coming together.

(01:30:19):
And All the President's Men really scratches that itch. It's
so exciting and enthralling and so fun and so like
that nineteen seventies paranoia movies. Those are so good. And yeah,
and rip Robert Redford. Yes, looking beautiful. So check out

(01:30:39):
All the Presidents Men. But that's our show in the future.
If you'd like film advice or if you need a
specific recommendation, if you have a gripe a grope a gret,
email us at dear Movies at exactly right Media. You
can also send in a voicemail like a few of
our listeners have. Please do so. Make sure it's under
a minute, You've recorded it in a nice quiet space,

(01:31:02):
and you can email that too. Deer movies at exactly
rightmedia dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:31:06):
Also please Okay. I made a call I think it
was either the last episode or the one before it,
where I was like, please follow us on Instagram, and
it seemed to have worked, so I'm gonna say it again.
Follow us on Instagram. It's like basically where we hang
out besides the email, right, we are at Deer Movies

(01:31:27):
I Love You on Instagram. We're also on Facebook if
you're a Facebook person, and also we're on Letterbox, each
of us individually. I'm at mda Cherco. He's at Casey
Lei O'Brien and if you have the iHeartRadio app, please
listen to Deer Movies I Love You there. If you
have Apple Podcasts, we're also there. Honestly, wherever you get

(01:31:50):
your podcasts, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:31:52):
And rate and review our show. That helps. Please. Okay,
next week, big episode. I think you kind of know.

Speaker 1 (01:32:03):
What's gonna happen because it's the end of the year,
goodbye twenty twenty five, and uh, we're gonna do a
best of our faves from the year. Are we qualified to.

Speaker 3 (01:32:14):
Do that now, Millie? I was just going to ask
the same goddamn question. I don't know if we have
the qualifications to say what was the best of twenty
twenty five, to be honest, but we're gonna try.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
We'll try, we'll see what happens. Let's just say, let's
just say, let's just walk in with good intentions and
hopefully it'll work out the best of intentions.

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
Yes, uh, but yeah, that's it. Thank you, Millie. Hey,
always a pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:32:41):
Thank you, Casey. I'm sorry you're getting those fart emails.
Hopefully we can clear that up pretty quickly.

Speaker 3 (01:32:45):
Yeah, no more fart emails people, please, Bye bye.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
This has been an exactly right production hosted by me
Millie to Cherco and produced by my co host Casey O'Brien.

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):
This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogal. Our associate producer
is Christina Chamberlain, our guest booker is Patrick Cottner, and
our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):
Our incredible theme music is by the best band in
the entire world, The Softies.

Speaker 3 (01:33:14):
Thank you to our executive producers Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark,
Daniel Kramer and Millie to Jerico, we love you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
Goodbye Beer