Manic Pixie Dream Girls & Garden State (2004)

In this episode of Dear Movies, I Love You, hosts Millie and Casey share the latest entries in their Film Diary before diving into Garden State (2004), one of the defining films of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl era. Plus, a Sensitive Boy movie quiz and fresh Employee Picks.

Follow, rate and review Dear Movies, I Love You wherever you get your podcasts. Keep up with the show on Instagram: @dearmoviesiloveyou.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yo, Casey, Hi Millie.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
How's it going.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Fine? It's going Actually, it's going great because we're about
to do an amazing podcast together again. Yeah, it's a
thrilling day, it is.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
So we're gonna do another round of our film diary
because I know you all want to know.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
And yes, we're gonna get really sensitive today because we're
talking about a film that is very meaningful to me.
It's called Garden State. And we're also gonna touch upon
a little thing called the uh Manic Pixie dream Girl,
which I have a lot to say. I'm sure you do.
I have quite a bit to say as well.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
And then, because we're gonna be talking about some sense TiVos,
I've prepared a wonderful game that I'm gonna make you
play about some sensitive boys in film.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
So well, I am a sensitive boy, So I'm very excited.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
All of this and more on this episode of Dear Movies,
I Love You.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
I love you, and I've got to know you love me.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
To check the books. Welcome to Dear Movies, I Love You.
This is the podcast for those who are in a
doomed relationship with movies. I'm your host, Millie to Jericho

(01:32):
and I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Your other host, Casey O'Brien. Oh, Millie, Yes, we got
a lot to talk about today.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
We definitely do. This episode is going to feel like
I'm gonna learn a lot about you. I just have
this weird feeling about it. Would that be fair to say?

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Are you fearful? No? I feel I'm worried. I'm going
to reveal things on this podcast that are going to
make you reconsider hosting a podcast with me, knowing me
as a human being. Oh so there's that. I mean,
we're gonna get into it now.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
I kind of see it as you're like this overgrown
garden to discover when it comes to to be needed.
Because we have a lot of similar tastes in movies,
I would say yeah, more than I actually thought. I
gotta admit, because you never know, you know, when you
meet people in the film streets, you're like, what are
they into? And then you're like, oh, they only like

(02:26):
I don't know, they they only like Michael Bay movies
or something, and you're like, oh, okay, gotcha. And they're like,
I'm a film freak just like you, and I'm like,
we're not the same.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
But there was a lot of guys I went to
film school with that. There's a specific type of film
school guy who I steered clear from. But they were everywhere.
And it's guys whose favorite movie is Indiana Jones and
they would also wear a fedora at film school. And
this is like a very specific type of guy and
it says a lot about them. I like Indiana Jones.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
But yeah, sure, sure, But you know, I don't want
to say that there are cinematic red flags when it
comes to meeting people, right, Oh, but there are. But yeah,
I was gonna say, is there some movie or some
director or something that is immediately like when an eyebrow
gets raised with you when you talk to someone.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Oh yes, certainly. I feel like I'm gonna be struck
dead in the art house world for saying something like this.
But when people are like I love Gadard, sure, I
find that I'm like, shut the fuck up. His movies
are boring and they suck. That's certainly one I would say.
I don't hear this, But if someone like loved Lars

(03:37):
von Dreer, I think that would be another one for me.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, what about you, I should I'd probably be struck
dead if I said this. But I'm gonna go for it.
Why not. There's also like people who I have met
who only watch A twenty four movies and pretty much
nothing else.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh, A twenty four is becoming that there's a film
fandom there that is becoming nasty. It's growing, and I
mean in some ways it's like I like that art
house cinema is being held up and people are excited
for it. But I know exactly the type of man
you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Okay, Incredible movies come out on A twenty four, no
doubt about it. Some of the best modern movies have
come out on that. I want to say label, but
it's a label production production. But that's what I mean.
It has become such a branded thing where people are
like really only kind of focusing on that and all

(04:42):
of the output and not watching other people's movies, do
you know what I mean? Like they just know, oh, well,
this is my this is my brand, Like I don't
go outside the brand. And it feels very kind of
modern capitalism in a way to be like I only
watch movies from this one production company.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Also there's like a vibe associated with it too, which
I think people have really bought into.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Again, that's it's probably gonna make me persona on grata
I suppose for saying that. But I'm also like, come on, like,
there are other movies that come out and have come
out beyond.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
This, So I hear you just have some variety, you know, absolutely,
And maybe we can help with that with our film
diary section to the podcast where we go through the
movies we watched in the last week. We discussed them
and uh, MILLI let me just ask you this before
we jump in, and this might be its own segment

(05:39):
at some point, But what's your like film watching process?
Do you have to like have a certain snack with you?
Do you have to like turn all the lights off?
Are you like, is that like a hallowed space? Or
are you like watching you know, Lawrence of Arabi on
your phone in bed or where where do you draw
the line?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Watching Lawrence of Arabia on my phone would be a
fucking nightmare?

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
So are you talking about in theater or at home?

Speaker 1 (06:10):
At home? At home the home movie watching experience.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
So here is the play and truth is that I've
become that middle aged person that can easily fall asleep
in a movie even if it's riveting, even if it's
Indiana Jones, Do you know what I mean. Yeah, So
I've kind of switched things up and started watching movies
in the morning.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
That's good fresh or in the early.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Afternoon, right, Yeah, I gotta say I love a morning movie,
and even in the theater. I love going to the
theater in the morning, like you know, before two pm,
the Senior Citizens hour where you get the good discounts
on things. So I watch things in the morning, And
to be honest, the best thing for me is to

(06:56):
like get up, make coffee, maybe make some toast, sure,
and just watch a movie like within an hour or
an hour and a half after I get.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Up, when your brain is fresh ready to absorb.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, fresh brain, and it's not as distracting. Yeah, and
I don't feel as tired. I just I don't know.
I just love that. So that's been me for the
past year or so or more. Okay, what about you?

Speaker 1 (07:21):
You know I used to be like really finicky about
like the room has to be completely black, I need
to like watch it all in one sitting without stopping
the movie. But since I've had a child, things have
become real lax. I'm watching on a laptop. Sometimes I'm
watching in fragments, and honestly, it hasn't ruined the overall experience.

(07:44):
You know, it's better to watch a movie though any
way you can, than not at all. And I was
watching them not at all because I didn't have like
a you know, a four hour block of time to
watch like Jan Dielman or whatever. Yeah, which is like
what I used to do before. It was like, all right,
turn my phone off. I'm zoned in on this movie.

(08:04):
But I've become more easygoing as I've gotten older.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yes, that's good. That's good. You don't want to get
more rigid?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Life is gonna be harder. They're more rigid.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
You are.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
I'm just telling you right now.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
It's true.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Maley.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
I gotta hear. I want to hear what movies you
watched this past week? Please tell me? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
So okay, film diary this week? First up, I watched
Anora Seawan Baker's Anora.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Fuck.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
I need to see it. Would you think it's fantastic? Damn?
I gotta see it.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
A huge fan of Sean Baker, me too. I fucking
love Red Rocket.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
See I haven't seen Red Rocks.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Like I'm a fan more than all of y'all are
of Red Rocket. I'm just gonna throw that out there. Wow,
like the whole Cybin Rex phenomenon.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yes, I love this.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
I love this. I love him. I have loved him
since the nineties when I used to see him on
MTV TV and I just loved the trajectory of his
career and like he's sort of like he's really kind
of like self effacing and very like no bullshit about
things in his life. Yeah, which I really appreciate.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
He's a dynamic person.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
And I want to see Red Rocket because I want
to see him up on the screen. I think he
got the call to like be in that movie like
a few days before they started shooting. Really. Yes.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
And also Sean Baker, just because we're friends on Instagram.
I mean not that we interact, but.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
You know, he's a good letterboxed follow he is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, Yeah, he's a huge exploitation fan, which is great.
I mean I love that about him. So, So I
saw Noora, loved it. I thought it was very, very charming.
So I then saw Pumping Iron two.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
The women. Fuck, I didn't know there was a Pumping
Iron two.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Little of us did, and I will.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Say few of us knew.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Shame because it This is my letterbox review, verbatim and
all vibes. Masterpiece five stars, five stars, five stars. Pumping
Iron to the women is better than pumping iron, and
I hold pumping Iron in the highest esteem, like everybody

(10:21):
knows why. I mean, you've got young Arnold talking about
how working out is like ejaculating exactly, and then you've
got like loof Forregno and his dad. I mean, there's
so many charring parts to Pumping Iron, but like Pumping
Iron two is its own fucking beautiful universe. Like there's glamour,
there's lots of backstories, there's this like what speaking of

(10:43):
sensitive boys, There's a man in the movie who is
a bodybuilder and he's married to one of the bodybuilder
women who are competing in the Big competition, and he
is a wife guy of the highest order. I'm obsessed
with him, but not even like an annoying wife, like
a true, beautiful soul wife guy, like an eighty his
wife guy, which was hard to do back in the
eighties to be that. But he is great, and the

(11:04):
whole movie is so good and the music is great,
So I had to watch it on YouTube. I think
it's on YouTube.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Wow, but it is so good, Okay, I.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Encourage everybody to see it.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
I also watched this documentary. This is like a total
swing in the other direction. I watched the documentary about
merchant Ivory. Oh, okay, the filmmaker's merchant Ivory. Yeah, I
think it's just called merchant Ivory. It was directed by
Steven Soussie. I think it's his name sou See why

(11:36):
And I don't know if you've had a long history
with watching those movies like Room with a View.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
I've only seen The Butler. Why am I blanking on
the name? I read the book too, Remains of the Day,
The Remains of the Day. I love that movie and
I love that book. But that's the only merchant Ivory
movie I've seen. I guess Call Me by Your Name
was written by Yes, James Ivory.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Correct, basically if you don't know and Ivory. They were
the craters of these very speaking of vibes, viby, sort
of Edwardian era England.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Gentle kind of movies, would you.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Say, gentle, lush scenery. It's like a lot of farmhouses
in England in the countryside with like parasols and big dresses,
Helena bottom carter and a messy bun that's just like cascading,
you know, down.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Her shoulders, caskating messy bun.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, cas skating messy buns, but like that.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
You know.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
They've done several movies over the years, and Ismael Merchant
and James Ivory were essentially a couple they met. I
mean I think Ismail Merchant was maybe twenty four when
he met James Ivory, and they met in like, you know,
the sixties or the fifties or sixties, and they basically
were like a gay couple at a time where gay
couples were not chill, especially in England. I mean, you

(12:53):
could get arrested for being gay in England back in
the sixties. And they were like creative collaborators. They bring
in all the usual suspects, so you've got like Emma
Thompson and like Hugh Grant and all the people that
were in their films holding on a bottom carter of course,
and then they bring in all of these other people
that worked on the films, and then it was just

(13:13):
kind of this like oh, they had this farmhouse, like
I said, in the English countryside, and they had the
ware they edited was in a barn with like Ivy growing.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Up the walls and god, what a dream.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
And then people would come and like live there for
months at a time to work on their films, you know,
like their composers and their you know, story editors and everything.
And I was just like every minute that went by,
I started getting so in my feelings and I was like,
I am depressed that I had never met my life
partner at twenty four and made movies with them until

(13:47):
I died.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Like I was.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Literally sitting there going like, why didn't that not happen
for me?

Speaker 1 (13:52):
You fucked up? I know. And I just was like,
I mean.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
You know, and of course, you know, being in a
relationship for that long is very complicated, especially if you
work together, but you know, and they talk about that
a bit, but I was like, I hate my life.
I wish I had their.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Life, Relly.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
I was really in my feelings about it. I was like,
I want it.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
I want this life sucks. Why am I me?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
And that's it's a fan If you're a fan, even
if you're like a kind of like just curious about them,
it's a good watch and the last movie I watch
in my film diary this week is.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Again.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Another big swing in another direction was the two thousand
and nine movie called Obsessed, starring Beyonce.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yep and Interest Elba and Ali Lauterer. Beyonce really gave
up on acting, didn't she. She was trying to make
that happen for a while, and I don't know if
she was very good as an actor.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
We were talking about that as we were watching it
because I had actually seen it before, and I was
trying to get my friends and Eddie to watch it
because my friend Eddie has this fascination and love for
Ali Lauter, and I was like, have you ever seen Obsessed?
And he was like no, And I'm like, what, It's
only the best milk toast erotic thriller I've ever seen.
But that's the thing is that, like Beyonce. We were

(15:15):
talking about this because I was like, Okay, should we
do a Beyonce film festival? What would be included? And
it would be like gold Member? Wasn't she in gold Member?

Speaker 1 (15:22):
She was in gold Member?

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, sort of playing that like fake Pam mcgreer character.
I didn't think she was that good. Gotta be honest,
and listen, I'm in the Beehive.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
I didn't think she was that good.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
I'm in the Beehive, and I can say this, sure
we both are yes. And then I think she was
in like Cadillac Records and a couple of other.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Like she played Eda James in Cadillac or right.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
She's in another kind of like fifties motown adjacent Dreamgirls,
Oh yeah, dream Girls. But also what is it called
Fighting Temptations or something like.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
That, I don't know. In The Lion King.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
She was in The Lion King. Yeah. Well, and so
needless to say, I think we were all pressed to
find something.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
I don't know. If i'd be attending that film festival movie, yeah,
I know.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
And if only she'd been in a merchant Ivory movie,
we'd be having.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
A much different discussion.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Only But that movie Obsessed is so funny, and I
think you know why I'm saying it's funny. It's ridiculous,
Like it is a ridiculous movie. It sort of feels
like a Tyler Perry movie without Tyler Perry.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Kim Kardashian's not in that movie, is she?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
No no, no, no, no no no. But it's supposed to
be an erotic thriller, but there's no stakes, there's no
eroticness to it at all. So if you want to
see a movie, whereat Beyonce goes Hay, I'm on, Ali Lauter,
you should check it out. And that's it for me.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Kim Kardashian was in the movie Temptation Confessions of a
Marriage Counselor, which is a movie by Tyler Perry.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Okay, that's where we're getting confused.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
That's where we're crossing wires there. Wow, what a week
for you, Elly? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Real crazy? So what about you?

Speaker 1 (16:57):
I have a pathetic week compared to you. I saw
the movie wish Master from nineteen ninety seven, which is
very funny. It's like an evil Genie comes back and
basically he can only use his powers if used within

(17:19):
a wish, So he's tricking people into making wishes and
they'll be like, like, this woman, you know, working in
a clothing store was like, oh my gosh, that other
woman over there is beautiful, and he's like, don't you
wish you were the most beautiful woman on earth? And
she's like, I guess so, and he's like, then say it,
and then he like kills her it's very bad and stupid.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Is stars the late Tony Todd. Am I wrong about that?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Tony Todd, I believe does make an appearance. All right,
pe King, Well it doesn't. Maybe he doesn't start. No,
he's just in there. So Tony Todd, Robert England is
in it a lot, and the guy who played Jason
is in it. There's like a lot of other horror
movie people in it, Okay. Then I watched The Substance.
That was great.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
I haven't seen it yet. Everybody's like asking me if
I had seen it, and I have to say no.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
I love a horror movie that has a lot of
goo in it, and this is a very goo forward movie.
I love body horror. It reminded me of Brian Husena's Society.
If you've ever seen that movie, it's great cool. I
would even consider doing an episode on it. There's a
lot to say about that movie, okay. And then I

(18:26):
watched the two thousand and two comedy written by Mike
White called Orange County. I was just in the mood
to see this movie. I remember really liking it when
it came out, and it's a fun You know, my
wife Tricia is from Orange County and so it was
kind of fun to watch that. Yeah, talk about life

(18:47):
in Orange County. And it's got a Jack Black before
School of Rock, you know, before he blew up, Colin Hanks,
Colin Hanks, Catherine O'Hara, John Lithgow, Harold ramis inclined. There's
a lot of people in it. Yeah, so Lily.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Tomlin, I love Mike White, will watch anything he does.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
So yeah, I have actually never seen Chuck and Buck.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Oh we did it for I saw what you did.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
I know you did. Yeah, I didn't watch it.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah. My favorite of his is Enlightened. I was obsessed
with Enlightened when it came out on HBO, to the
point where when it ended, I think I actually wrote
an email to somewhat internally, because at the time that
this happened, I was working for Warner Brothers Discovery, which
of course owns HBO, and I was like, let me
find somebody at HBO write a letter, like just some

(19:37):
maniac woman who sends a blind email complaining about a
show getting canceled.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
I was so pissed. Did you get a response? No,
of course not. I feel like I make emails like that,
like cold emails to random people and like, out of
a thousand of them, one of them gets answered or
like gets a response, and that so is thrilling. Actually,
I have kind of a story related to the movie
we're talking about today, kind of I guess to a
cold email that got responded to that I was going

(20:03):
to bring up. But that's great, that's our film, Diary.
That's it, dear Diary. Millie was mean today. Let's move

(20:25):
on to the big show of what we're talking about today.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
So let's I don't know, I'm cracking my knuckles. I
don't know if you can hear it. Yeah, because I'm
settling in on this movie that we're going to talk
about this time period. Like when we talked about potentially
bringing this movie to the podcast just to chat it up,
I immediately was sent back to a time and place.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yes, well, I floated the idea to you, and I
was worried you were gonna pick it up and then
throw it back at me and say, we're not talking
about this movie. So I was thrilled that you were
to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Oh yeah, listen, I love matching someone's freak. So let's
go okay, yeah, fabulous. So we're talking about garden State Today,
two thousand and fours. Garden State written and directed by
Zach Braff. Let me take you back in the time machine.
It's two thousand and four. I'm sixteen years old. Ooh
am I sensitive. I am a sensitive, sad little boy.
And this trailer almost more than the movie. The trailer

(21:25):
for this movie hit me. I was just getting into
art house film, you know. I was going to the
lagoon in Minneapolis and this played. I don't remember before
what movie, but I was just like, this is made
for the music, the imagery, the sensitivity.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
I was thinking about this. I was like, if the FBI,
like for some reason needed to try to like trick
me and kidnap me somehow, they would put this trailer
together and I would be such an easy mark to
like show up at a movie theater to watch this movie.
I mean, it was like made for me. Yes, and
I remember my friends and I were all my sensitive
boyfriends were so thrilled. We went on the first day

(22:09):
that it came out. We already owned the soundtrack. The
soundtrack was already a huge thing. We listened to the soundtrack.
I remember this day very specifically. We listened to the
soundtrack on the way to the theater, and when I
was watching it, I was like, this is the most
important movie I've ever seen. It just felt like the
stakes were so high, and I feel like this movie

(22:32):
opened it hit me right at the right time. You know.
I had probably just seen The Four Hundred Blows and
like the Seventh Seal, and I was seeing more like
artsy movies, and so I was kind of ready for
something like this, and it just it became such an
important part of my life. I look back to things

(22:54):
that I made and wrote even in college, that are
heavily influenced by this movie being core and sensitive. And
when I was in high school, my senior year, I
was in the theater program. I was very heavily involved
in the theater program in high school, and my senior year,
my theater director came to me and another guy and
were like, you guys should write a play that will

(23:16):
do for the fall play WHOA And we wrote a
play that, looking back, copied a lot of elements of
Garden State. It's like about a guy, like a grown
man coming I We're like seventeen oh, and it's like
we're got like a grown man coming back to his
hometown after trying to make it in La and the

(23:36):
dad was in a wheelchair, not the mom, which is
like in Garden State. I mean it's like such and
there's like a manic pixie dream girl esque character in it.
And I don't even know if I can hunt down
a copy of that play. It was called Prodigal Oh,
it's like about the prodigal son coming back. So anyways,
it was this is a very important movie for me

(23:59):
in high school. And it's interesting because I feel like
this movie became a punchline not long after it was released. Yes,
so after that initial bubble of love, like after high
school and maybe after college, I feel like it was
like an embarrassing movie to like, especially when I got
into film school and we're watching movies like Gumo or

(24:21):
like you know, like Sallo and stuff like that. It's
like there's no place for a movie like Garden State.
But to me, I feel like I'm still affected by
it in terms of the type of movie it is.
I've kind of come full circle on it, like this
type of movie is my kind of movie. Whether this

(24:43):
is like a totally effective movie or not, this kind
of movie is my still my kind of movie. Yes,
So that's my long winded story and experience with Garden State.
And we're kind of talking about it because it came
out twenty years ago. It's kind of like the twenty
a little longer than twenty years ago, but I think
believe it came out in August of two thousand and four. Okay,

(25:04):
so I thought it appropriate to revisit it.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
And I'm glad that you picked it because I'll just
get I'm gonna say this right now. You've said all
these beautiful things about how this was a part of
your childhood, about your formative years. It inspired you to
be a filmmaker and to be in movies, And.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yes, I mean this is one of the movies I
would say I went to film school because of this movie.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
So oh, of course, I totally totally understand. I had
the complete opposite reaction when this movie came out. Of course,
I know I'm a little bit older than you. I
was twenty four twenty five when this movie came out, So.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
You're out of the You were out of the window.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
I not only was out of the window, but I
am I immediately saw as Sus as the kids say, sus,
I was like, what is this thing? What is happening?
Because you know, being in my twenties, I think was
obviously marketed for people in their twenties two And I
was just like, but I have no connection to Zach Braff.
I have actually no connection to Natalie Portman because I'm

(26:05):
not a Star Wars person and I wasn't really I
didn't really have a connection to her.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
I was a Scrubs faf to my favorite show in
high school. I was obsessed because it was that was
like a sitcom, but it had so many like emotional
emo moments in it too, and I was just I
was just such a sucker for it. So like I
was the pump was primed for this movie to come
out for me. Oh, I was already obsessed with Zach Braff.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
See that is so interesting to me because Zach Braff,
to me is the worst part of this movie after
having seen it again, because I watched it. I think
I watched it on campus at the campus movie theater
of my old college because basically you could see movies
for a dollar there if you had your student ID,
and I had my.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Still and my student ideas was like why not?

Speaker 2 (26:54):
And I was like, yo, I hate this big time.
I hate it, even though, like so of the soundtrack,
which I know we're going to get into, there are
bands on that soundtrack that I liked. I also feel
like too, it took advantage of like this rediscovery of
Nick Drake. Yeah, that I'm very resentful. I'm actually resentful
of it.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, because I think Nick Drake was in a car commercial,
a Volkswagen commercial roughly around this time. Yeah, think Moon.
I believe the song was used in that.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yes, And speaking of sensitive boys, I was a big
fan of Nick Drake. And then all of a sudden,
here comes like, you know, the cavalry being like, oh
Nick Drake, Pink Moon, Oh, Garden State Soundtruck. I was like,
you motherfuckers, Like where have you been? Honestly, where have
you been? But all of this is to say, my
thing about it is that like I had those movies

(27:41):
when I was sixteen, seventeen years old. I mean when
I was that age, you know, it was a lot
of like reality bites, singles. You know. I was kind
of like in high school in the nineties. Sure, so
there were movies like that were similar for me where
I was like I want to adopt the world. That
it's in and yeah, I want to act like the
characters and I just want to I'm like all invested

(28:03):
into this whatever. This movie is a promotion of a
life that I want or something. Yeah, so I'm not
begrudging that that is actually like a time honor tradition
for most teenagers that they find a movie that is
kind of their everything and then it becomes this like
formative moment for them.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
And I also think that movie is not necessarily the
cool it's kind of the more mainstream that actual cool
people would be resentful of late. Like I think five
Hundred Days of Summer is actually a very similar comp
to this, because when I saw that, I was like
twenty three, twenty four, and I was like, fuck this.
I resent them using Pixies music in this. Yes, I

(28:43):
resent them doing this. But I know younger people who
are like very affected by that movie. You know. It's
like there's kind of this window and it's like that
doesn't mean those things are bad inherently, but it's it's
almost like the not I don't know how to describe it.
It's like the n not cool version of something, or
like the more mainstreamified do you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, well and like okay, so maybe this is an
easy segue into maybe the larger theme of both what
this movie represents and maybe the theme of this episode
in a way. So I am not sure of the
actual timeline for any of this, and I feel like
you might know more than me, so just feel free
to correct me at any at any point. Sure, this

(29:29):
movie feels like it ushered in this era of the
mannic pixie dream girl, which was a term that was
coined by Nathan Rabin, who is a film writer and
a critic very famously created this word that has become
kind of like the catch all for a certain type
of female movie character, right.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yes, and it's he coined that term in the review
for the movie Elizabethtown, which is a Cameron Crowe movie.
Who Cameron Crowe is very filmmaker who has kind of
utilized that type of care a few times.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yes, well, I mean he he did singles. So it's like,
I mean, even if you go back to that movie,
which was made in like what ninety two ninety four, yeh, yeah,
even though we were not in a manic Pixie dream
girl era, theoretically there are elements of the male character
I mean, like I would say that Campbell Scott character

(30:21):
in Singles is very close to the zach Raff character
or you know whatever character that would be in Elizabeth
toown that sort of like good guy, some damage, sensitive,
sensitive inspired to you know, live again via a girl
who he finds charming and fascinating. Yes, that concept to
be actually honest.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Is old school, very old school.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
It's like that is, you know, very screwball comedy, early
days of Hollywood. That's set up. But I feel like
this movie Garden State was the thing that really crystallized
that new era of it. It felt like then after
Garden State, there was this like proliferation of those types
of movies like Elizabethtown and it's five hundred Days in Summer.

(31:06):
That's after guard State too.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, that's like twenty ten, five hundred days of Summer.
Nick and Nora's Infinite Playlist is one that I comes
to mind. Scott Pilgrim Versus the World is another one,
and a lot of these movies. It's a character type,
but it's also a movie type. This character exists within
a certain type of movie. It's like sensitive boy caught

(31:29):
in a rut and this unhinged woman who's free. A
free spirit gets them out of their rut. And it's
mildly problematic because it kind of is all self serving
for the man's journey, and a lot of times this
female character doesn't really have any substance to them other

(31:52):
than being kind of quirky and weird.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Right, potentially mentally ill, yes, always hanging in there, which
is very interesting to me as well. But here's the thing, though,
I mean, listen, I think, if you know who I am,
if you've listened to other podcasts I've done, if you
just know my work or anything, just don't me personally.
I mean, you know that the MANI picture dream girl is,

(32:17):
you know a little I brace myself anytime we talk
about it because it is such an archetype that doesn't
feel necessarily real. It feels like a product of a
man's brain.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Right, yes, But at the.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Same time, I want boys to be sensitive. I want
them to feel deep things, and I want them to
fall in love in a very like, earnest, beautiful way.
Like I mean, I want the evolution of men so
badly that I don't want to say it's totally bullshit
that this era exists, that this type of filmmaking exists

(32:54):
at one point because I feel like if it makes
boys more sensitive and in two and other feelings, great,
But the problem is is that like that conversation is
never as nuanced as I want it to be.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah, and it certainly doesn't talk.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
About the women as part of that at all in
any kind of real nuanced way. Like it's just basically
like a sensitive boys like projection of who he thinks
is going to come save him, you know what I mean.
And also I would add an eternal Sunshine, right, that's
another one of these movies.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
Eternal Sunshine, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, as you know
Michelle Gondry, you know, Kate Winslet and Jim Carrey. That
to me was the movie that I was like, oh,
I understand what's going on now, Like I watched that
movie several times and I actually think it's a great film. Yeah,
but it did for me go, okay, yeah, this movie

(33:47):
alongside all this other stuff. Now we're in a vibe
and I don't know what to think of it. It
feels very suspect. And also not all women are like that,
like they're not you know, whimsical and and all these things.
I mean, it's just like it is a fantasy, and
I wish that there would be more substance to that,

(34:08):
or more conversation around what that is to men, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, I think that like inherently it's not a bad thing.
Like the Magic Pixie dream Girl, I think it's good
to be able to represent women on screen in a
way that isn't like demure and quiet. It's like because
a lot of the times these women are like loud
and abrasive and like whoa, they're making a scene. And
I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing on the

(34:35):
face of it. It's a good thing, you know. But
it's when there's like all in the service of the
man and there isn't really a journey that that character
goes on, because a lot of times they're just like
there being like there to free the main character guy
from his you know, spot in life, but there isn't

(34:57):
like they don't have a journey themselves. I was just
thinking of the movie Something Wild. Yes, that's sort of
a manic Pixie dream girl, but Melanie Griffith's character, you
get to know her and her troubles and she does
go on a journey and so it's yes, there's a
way to do it correctly, you know, but yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Know well, and like it feels like a one sided
thing where it's basically like, here's a fucked up guy
who it's a fucked up girl. But there's not in
these movies to me as potentially, you know, seeing this
through the eyes of the woman, I'm just like, where's
you know, her story in relation to is he helping her?
Is there? Like the thing that drove me batshit crazy

(35:36):
about Garden State for several reasons. Okay, Like, like I said,
I watched it again for the podcast. I was like, yep,
now I'm watching this with middle aged eyes, and I'm
like this movie, I had the right instinct. I did
not like it before, maybe not as strongly, but I
definitely thought, Okay, this is not great to me, and

(35:58):
I think part of it is that well, I'll just
tell you right now, I'm not saying this is hard
and fast rule for me, but I'm just gonna say,
immediately suspect when a filmmaker who is the writer, director,
and star of his own movie is easily able to
get in his underwear.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
In multiple scenes.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
I'm like, you are in your underwear and shirtless throughout
a lot of this movie. Interesting, And I'm like, that
is bold. Yeah, It's almost like he'd been wanting to
get in his underwear for a long time on camera.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Interesting, and he.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Was able to do it. And I was like, hmm, interesting, Okay.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
That's fascinating. That didn't cross my mind when I was
watching this. I mean on Scrubs he was shirtless a
lot too, So I feel like I've seen Zach Braff shirtless.
I know it was good. It looks good shirtless, and
maybe that's why he wanted to do it.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
It's like he knows he does, Casey, That's what I'm
I think I'm hunting at. He knows he looks good shirtless,
and he's like, Yo, let me get in my underwear
a lot and let me take my shirt off a lot.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Can I tell you me watching it? Because I haven't
seen it in like eighteen years, I don't think suure.
So the last time I watched this was in my
freshman year of college, just to kind of like check
back in with it after a couple of years, and
I don't think it hit me quite as hard that time.
And watching it this time, I was like, this is

(37:11):
kind of a silly little movie. Like there's so many
visual gags and like cute moments and like well framed shots,
and visually it's fun to watch it, but I was
like the underlying emotion because I feel like when I
first saw it, I was like, this is so emotional,
and I was like the end was so powerful for me.

(37:35):
But this time, I was like, this is just kind
of cute and there's not as much. I think at
the end of the movie, I was a little bit
like what was this all for? What are we doing here?
And there were points in the movie where I'm like,
where are we going? Yes, why are we still watching
this movie? There wasn't a overarching narrative that kept it

(37:59):
all together. And at the time, you know, I was
suffering from depression and anxiety, but in kind of a
smaller way, sure, and so I was really attached to
Zach Braff's character and he's like struggling with depression and
ant and he's on all these pills that are numbing him.
That was such a big thing. It was like I

(38:19):
don't want to take these pills because they know I
feel nothing, and I just want to feel something. Anyways,
flash forward a few years where I am medicated for
my depression and I'm going to therapy and I'm like,
I don't find this as cute of a problem. Yeah,
and I don't think it's as accurate and its depiction

(38:42):
of depression. And when I was on medication, I was like, Oh,
thank god, it's numbing some of those feelings. I never
felt like, God, I just want to feel I don't
feel anything.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
You know.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
And so that type of storyline I was less affected by,
or I didn't find as much, you know, I didn't
connect with the character as much this time, and so
I was kind of like, this is like a funny,
cute movie, but I just it didn't have the punch
it once had, and it kind of made me sad.

(39:15):
To be honest, I wasn't able to tap into that
younger version of myself. Yes, and I feel like I
kind of like, in a way, was letting this movie down.
I know that's sort of a slight thing to say,
but I was like, no, no, I feel like you meant
so much to me and I'm just not able to
get there with you. I mean, I'm thirty six now
and I'm still a very emotionally sensitive person, but I

(39:37):
just didn't connect to this. And I just read this
graphic novel called Blankets. Have you ever heard of this book? No,
it's from two thousand and four also, and it's about
a high school romance. It's similar Garden State. It's like
so intense and just like every little thing is the
biggest thing in the world. And reading it as a

(39:58):
thirty six year old, I was like, can't get into this. Yeah,
I'm not there. I'm not there anymore in it. And
I feel like I let Blankets down because I was like,
if I had read this in high school, it would
have been in my world. But I'm just not there anymore.
And that kind of makes me sad. I guess No, actually,
I kind of enjoyed it, and I see all the
issues with it that you pointed out, but still I

(40:19):
have such a soft spot for it that I was
able to overlook that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Like and as much like it may seem funny to
say you let a movie down, I feel like that's okay,
Like it's okay to age out of a movie that
you loved, we have kind of the like opposite problem
happening within popular culture was that people feel so protective
over things from their childhood that even if they're like,

(40:45):
I can't even really functionally fuck with this as hard
as I used to, they'll still protect it to the
hill because they're just sort of like in it. They've
invested so much. Yeah, I feel like we should be
moving away from that instinct. Like art is flexible and
it's you know, sometimes you really with things, sometimes you don't.
I mean, I totally understand how this could be somebody's
everything at one period of life, and also I understand

(41:08):
how it could still be everyone's someone's everything. I mean,
this is a question I probably want to ask you then,
because I feel like maybe this is what's happening for me,
even though I'm not as strongly tied to this movie
or this era or anything. Do you feel like watching
it now because we have moved so much further in

(41:29):
time twenty years right, Yes? Does it seem like Garden
State is now almost like a parody of itself because
we saw the proliferation of these types of films, because
the Manipixie dreamgirl trope has been beaten to death so much,
because you know, twenty years past that you're just kind
of like, oh, this seems a little like corny and
derivative and not as great because I don't know like

(41:52):
time has moved forward in that way.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Honestly watching it this time, I was like, this is
such a relic. Yes, Like I like, I actually like
really liked watching for that reason. Like I remember like
shopping at urban outfitters in two thousand and four and
like finding the clothes that everyone was that people were
like wearing in this movie, and so I feel like
I can honor it in that way a little bit
more than like my direct emotional connection to it. I
can be like, this is like a fun thing to

(42:16):
like watch just to see how people are dressed and
the music and the just the overall vibe of it.
So it's hard. I wouldn't say like it's a parody
necessarily of itself, but I do feel like I'm like,
this is just like a time capsule of two thousand
and four, and it's kind of in a fun way.
And I feel like, you know, in terms of like

(42:36):
defending it, I feel like I have to kind of
defend the Garden State in a way because I feel
like it is such a punchline to this day, you know,
and I think you're guilty of that. And I think
you said some really really rude things about this movie,
and I think that's kind of fucked up.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
So well, allisten, I both apologize and don't apologize.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I think that's fine. I think that's fine. I'm just
kidding obviously.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Like listen, Casey, you have to say maybe maybe not.
I don't know. I'm dangling this one. Yeah, that ending
drove me fucking bananas. Where they're in the airport on
the stairs, he's like cupping her tiny little bird face
in his hands, and he's just like she's crying her
fucking eyes out because he's leaving. He's going back to

(43:19):
lay because she fixed him, and now he's got to
go off, you know, fly the coop, fly her bird coop,
and she's fucking beside herself with the idea that they're
gonna be a part, and he's just like, I gotta go,
gotta go fucking wipe the tears away, and then he
just like walks away. She ends up like going into
a phone both and crying, and of course, you know,

(43:40):
like we all know what's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Spoiler alert. I think I think he comes back.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
And realizes he's been an idiot, But that moment felt
so I wanted to stab him in the fucking eyeball
for that. Yeah, it felt a little cold. It felt
very like I'm being cavalier now that you know we've
had this have to go. It's just what's gonna happen?
And I was like, fuck that bitch, what the fuck? Like,
he's not healed, he's just as a cerbic and abrasive

(44:08):
as he always has been.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
But he comes back, Milly, he came back.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
That felt so stupid.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
I know the ending is I think in my little
sixteen year old heart, I was kind of like, this ending,
there is a realization, but we don't see it, and
it's just kind of like, hey, I'm gonna go, you
know what, maybe I shouldn't go. That's essentially that's how
it goes. But there's a lot of cool shots and
music playing that Fruffrew song really, because I think like

(44:35):
the trailer is with that Frufrew song. So that was
so big in the trailer, and then when you heard
it in the movie, I think I was able to
just forgive whatever happened. I was like, whatever, God, let's talk.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
About the little bit of the soundtrack, because that was
like a huge.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Huge you want a Grammy for it? Who did Zach
Braff Zack Braff want a Grammy for that movie?

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Okay, you should see Millie's face right now. She's scowling.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
I know. I think it's just because I want to
win a Grammy for a soundtrack that I put together
akia Spotify playlist.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Maybe you win it for a podcast.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Yeah, well, okay, so the soundtrack, you know, I just
like two thousand and four. I was like, actually, I
started my grown up job in two thousand and four,
but I was kind of fresh out of undergrad and
I'd worked at the college radio station when I was
in school, and so this soundtrack was kind of percolating

(45:28):
as I was leaving college radio, right, Yeah, certainly all
these bands were all over college radio. Like. It includes
a track from the first track off of the very
first cold Play album, which is pretty much the only
cold Play album that I fuck with. Yeah, I kind
of like the second one, but the first one is great.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
That was the only cold Play I've ever listened to.
Yes two album, and then.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Of course, you know what happened to cold Play, but
it's like that thing where I.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Was like, oh, I was brought back to that like.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
First cold Play album era. Then of course the Shins,
which I feel like the Shins got super popular because
of the soundtrack they did.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, absolutely, And that's like I'd never heard the Shins before.
So when she's like, you want to hear a movie
song that will change your life, oh I heard that,
I was like, this is changing my life. They really
picked a song that is changing my life. Yeah, that
worked for me too well.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
And like here and here's another part of the movie
that it features a song that I actually really love,
but the part of the movie that it played in
drove me bananas. It was the Simon and garvocal song
The Only Living Boy in New York, which actually think
is such a sweet song.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
I love, yes, I love that, love that song, But
the part that.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
It plays in was like the big, sweet, big romantic
moment thing in the movie because basically, you know, it's
like there's a section where they're coming out of somebody's
weird house in a rock quarry and Zach braff Is
I think finally it's kind of the like manifestation of
all of his like feelings that he's been feeling since

(46:55):
he's been back home, and he has this for this
manic pixie dream girl, and it's like him the Natalie
Portman character, and then the Peter Sarsar character, who I
actually love.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Peter Sarsgard, by the way, he's a great too.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
He's a great dude. They're like standing on top of
like a like an excavator or something.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Like yeah, and next to a Corey.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah Insto Corey and there were in trash bags because
it's raining, and then all of a sudden, Zach Braff's
character is like, I gotta kiss this woman. Yeah, and
I'll do it in front of my friend who was
just watching us, which is so awkward.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
Mellie.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
This is after they screamed into the quarry emotionally to
let it out. I mean, that was on it. I
admittedly a powerful moment for me in twenty four. Twenty
twenty four, I was like, it'll be Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
There was a lot of this like dorky excising of emotions,
but the part where she's in front of the fucking
fireplace and she's like doing a tap dance.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Tap dance for you, I'd love for you to tap
dance for me.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
I was like, Yo, that's her avoiding intimacy. By the way,
did you know that?

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yes? I mean I think we could do a whole
section on her, uh being a non sexual entity and
him being a non sexual entity, and like the infantilizing
of Natalie Portman, there's a lot to get into there.
But yeah, anyways, continue.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
It's like when he admits something to her that's any
kind of real vulnerability, She's like, I'm just gonna do
a weird dance.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
You know.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
It just fucking drives me crazy. But in that moment,
there was this moment where I was like, Okay, he
just decides that he's like swept away. In the moment
he's on the excavator, the only living boy in New
York is playing. It's a very romantic scene, and then
Peter Sarsguard's just looking at them, and I'm like, he
should have left that excavator. He's like, oh, my friends
are making out. I gotta go, like I don't want
to watch them.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Or if I was directing that scene, and I've directed
some things so I could say this. If I was
directing that scene Peter Sar's guard, I would have not
had that character go up there. Yes, yes, and that
could have been a motivating he could have you know,
he's a cigarette smoker. Maybe he's smoking a cigarette down there.
He doesn't want to climb this thing. Yeah, and then
Natalie Portman and Zach Braff could scream into the quarry

(48:57):
and make out and it would be less awkward. Yeah.
I noticed that when we were watching.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
I would have had the drone fly over the two.
Peter Sarsgard exits stage wherever, why climbs off the excitator, Like, Yo,
my friends are in a moment, I'm gonna leave because,
as a person who has been the third wheel for
many romantic encounters in my life, I'm like, I ain't
watching these two. I'm fucking off.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Yes, I have been in the same situations where I
think I'm hanging out with two friends and I turn
around and they are making out and I'm like, WHOA.
So I have been in that situation where it's been
a sneak attack makeout that I didn't know was gonna happen. Yeah,
so I've been there. But it's too silly of a
moment to have in the movie.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Yeah. Well, like I said, I could truly go on
with some of the stuff. But the soundtrack to me,
I mean it was kind of like a mixed bag
in terms of how I was feeling at the time
when I was rewatching it, because I was like, oh,
this cold Play song still hits, oh through through, Wow, Okay,
this happening at this really important in time, Like the
lyrics of it are so appropriate for the scene that

(50:05):
it's happening in, and you know. Then there was also like,
I don't know these bands that I remember that I
haven't heard since this.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah, like no, totally.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Remy Zero, I have not heard Remy zero since two
thousand and four.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Yeah, I mean at the time, I was like, every
song on this hits so hard, And now when I
listened to it, I was like a few of these hits, yeah,
the rest of a little bit, Millie, we we kind
of got to get moving on here. Is there any
last thoughts you have? Yes, I will.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
I will say this. As much as I've shipped on.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Your me as a person, all over me as a.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Person, your interior life, your feelings, your childhood, all of that,
I actually think it's insanely adorable that you loved this
movie as much as you did and could admit to
it and can talk about it with no has because
we should not be embarrassed by the things. There is
no cringe to me. I don't believe in cringe.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yes, I mean you and I have talked off record.
We are cringe, but we are free, you know, and
there is no cringe. We moved through the cringe. That's right.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Like, it's wonderful that you're like this is I was
shaped by a film like this, and I know everybody
thinks it's lame, but I will defend it.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Steah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
There's something very sweet about that, and I feel like
it ends up making me like people more when they
can say stuff like that, Like, I don't know, I
just I appreciate it as much as I did not
have that experience. You know, I was already in my
like stupid idiot edge lord, twenty five year old, you know,
smoking cigarettes, watching cannibal movies from Italy type of modes.

(51:51):
I hold space for you having the passion and the
appreciation for Garden State.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Well, thank you. I understand all the criticism of it,
and even I have grown. I did buy it on
blu ray. Oh so I now own this movie. So
if the apocalypse comes and I'm having to watch movie
via generator in my you know, shack out in the woods,
I will be able to watch Garden State Forever.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Is there a Zach Braf commentary on that blue ray?

Speaker 1 (52:23):
I believe there is, and I think I've actually watched
the Zach Braff commentary already at some point. I don't
really want to like elaborate on this, but it is
sort of interesting that Zach Braff didn't become a bigger filmmaker.
He didn't make another movie for ten years. Oh wow,
this was a hit, yeah, you know, and it's a
movie he wrote and directed and started. You'd think he
would have had another one lined up in a year

(52:44):
or two. But his legacy is odd too, as I
see him in commercials for a cell phone company now
with the other guy from Scrubs, and it makes me
sort of sad, yeah too, because I'm like, you could
have been, like, I don't know, A two thousand's Hal
Hartley er sure, which I have more to say about

(53:05):
Hal Hartley and my recommendation section. I just think there's
space for this type of movie, a sensitive, romantic, funny movie,
and I don't think we get movies like this anymore,
and like you can say what you will about Garden State,
I wish there were more movies that were kind of
like Garden State. We just don't have those anymore, and

(53:28):
that makes me sad.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, I would agree with that. I feel like ernestness
is in a weird place right now generally.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yeah, I agree, all right, Moving on to something that
I'm interested in. Scared of really presented the idea of
doing a sensitive boy as quiz to me, and I'm

(53:55):
I feel like I'm the authority on sensitive boys. I
am a sensitive boy. Yes, you know, I am a
straight white male, but I like to identify as a
soft strait however you want. I am a soft straight
and you know I mean that in every way of
that you know meaning. And so I feel like I'm

(54:17):
the authority on this type of stuff. So Millie, take
it away. What are we doing today? All right?

Speaker 2 (54:23):
So we're playing a little game here. It's gonna be
five questions. Each question is gonna be basically a synopsis
or log line or something about a movie that has
come out in the past. I would say thirty to
forty years. So nothing, nothing that's super old, I would
say keep it in like the seventies, eighties, nineties, and

(54:43):
beyond two thousands perhaps. Okay, I'm gonna read you the
synopsis of the film, and I need you to name
the film. And then if you can remember the character's
name or who played the character or characters in some
of this, then that'd be great. But just name the
name the movie. So this is basically a a game
where you have to guess what movie features you know,

(55:04):
a sensitive boy, a sensitivevo bro, or a you know,
some kind of beautiful male creature in a film.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
A beautiful male creature. Love that. And so I get
a point for naming the movie, and I get a
point for naming the actor. Is that right?

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Yeah, Well, if you just name the movie, you get
a point. Okay, if you remember the character name or
the person who played them, great, but just name the movie.
That's that's the meat of this game.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Okay, okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Question number one in our sensitive Boys.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Game, I'm listening. I have my listening face.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
A group of thoughtful young men attempting a prep school
in the late nineteen fifties create a secret club inspired
by their favorite teacher, where they explore writing poetry, and
the pursuit of their true.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Passions dead poet society. Correct. Yeah, lots of sensitive boys.
They love the theater, film, and they love making a
scene by standing up on a desk and reciting to
their favorite teacher. Yes, God, I went, and it's so
a tumnal and like East Coast. I really wanted to
be on the East Coast as a kid. I mean,
maybe that's why I like Garden Stakes. I was like, oh,
I want to be a New Jersey. I want to

(56:15):
be out of Minneapolis. But yeah, yeah, I would.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
If you were to say Ethan Hawk or Robert Sean Leonard.
He was kind of the most sensitive Sean Leonard.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Yes, he was kind of.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Like a gay coded character, wouldn't you say? Maybe Ethan
Hawk's character too was a little gay coded. So anyway,
absolutely right, So you got one.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Right, great fabulous fabulus.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Number two sensitive boy, a sports agent decides to adopt
a more personal, ethical approach to his career after being
fired from his job, navigating both professional struggles and a
complicated relationship with a single.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Mother and her child. Jerry maguire. It's interesting you bring
up Jerry McGuire because that's another Cameron Chrome movie us
a sensitive dude, and I think it's funny. He also
it gets name checked, but the ultimate sensitive boy book
Catcher in the Rye is name checked in that movie.

(57:16):
So anyways, to right, you got that second one, right?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
How could you not?

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Tom Cruise, Cuba Gooding, Junior, rene Zel, Wigger, Jonathan Lipnikki.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
I forgot about that name. Wow, you get bonus for that?

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Yeah, Nick, my goodness. J Moore Moore, Yeah, man, it's
been a while since I've seen that. There's a there's
a video collective in La called Everything Is Terrible. Yes,
have you seen them? I have? Yeah, they do tours, okay,
and they had a thing where they were like collecting
every VHS copy of Jerry McGuire. I think they have

(57:52):
like thousands of Jerry McGuire because I think it's a
frequent one in like a goodwill VHS spin it's like
every but he had Jerry mcgarre on VHS. So anyways, that's.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Weirdly enough, my family did not. Even though my parents
had the weirdest VHS tapes, they only had like twelve
or something, ten or twelve and they were all weird
as shit.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
It's so fun.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
I'm surprised Jerry McGuire wasn't one of them anyway. That's
the second one. Great got too right? Number three and
our sensitive Boys quiz. In this nineteen eighties coming of
age classic, a sensitive and mature young boy from a
troubled family becomes the emotional leader of a group of

(58:34):
friends who are on a journey to find a dead body.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Oh stand by Me, Yes, Oh man, this is a weeper.
This isn't just like a sensitive boy. I feel like
this is just I can't really even watch this movie anyway. Wow,
it's like that monologue of River Phoenix talking about stealing
the lunch money. I think you guys covered this song.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Oh we did.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
I saw what you did. I mean, it's so just
such a gut punch, And like, I remember being really
affected when the epilogue when they're like, this is what
happened to the characters? Oh, and you're like.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
God, spoiler alert, me fucking.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Dies And I was like shook.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
That haunted me forever.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Yes, you know, it's kind of similar to the end
of American Graffiti where it's like their lives sucked after
this kind of yeah, And it's like the main character
in Standby Me becomes a successful writer. But it's like
one guy lost his mind in Vietnam. One guy. It's
just kind of like, man, fuck, that is so fucking depressing.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
So depressing. I was like, is this why Stephen King
is because this horrible fact has been brought in here
and now I'm mully it over for the rest of
my life.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
He got stabbed in the neck standing in line, like
at a fast food restaurant. There was something like that.
It's like, God almighty, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Well, but I would argue that River Phoenix was like
one of the og sens of boys from my childhood, So.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
God would I would have literally I would have killed
the person if I could have had his hair. Oh God,
I had such a curly hair in the nineties, and
it was all about that River Phoenix, cool guy hair.
If someone was like one person on earth could die,
but you'd have that hair, I would be like, do
I have to know that person? And they were like no.
I might have said yes because I was like, I

(01:00:22):
wanted that hair so badly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I mean, listen his whole mythology at this point. I mean,
it's it's kind of interesting to call it a mythology,
but it is. I mean, he was like a famous
young actor that died young. So of course there's this
like an aura and a mythology around him in his life,
right in this era when he became like nineties famous,
when he was dating Martha Plimpton, who to me was

(01:00:45):
like she was she symbolized with the actual cool girl
because she was kind of like tom boyish. She was
like alternative, you know, she wasn't like this. She just
seemed like a girl that I would know from my
high school and be friends with. So when she was
dating River Phoenix, and you know it was like rumored
that he was bisexual or whatever, I was like, this

(01:01:06):
is who I want to thrive forever. I wanted to
live together in a brownstone in New York and grow
old together. Yeah, they were gonna be my you know,
the model for my life. It was such a magical
time when they were together, and I know that he
was probably going through demons and there was a lot
of tucked in there, but like, honestly, for my money,

(01:01:27):
that was the eternal couple for me. Fascinating anyway, Okay,
moving on, So you got three right, number four.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I thought you're gonna make this hard.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
I know, listen. I had to softball it because I
wasn't sure what you were going to think.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Yeah, if I had done badly, I might have gotten
too sensitives. Yeah, cried about it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
I should I should have pulled in some gudar and
really rocked you. Number four, A compassionate, sensitive, and unorthodox
therapist helps a troubled young genius working as a jenner
at mit his past and realize his full potential.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
See. I thought, I was like, oh, this is a
good one. She's doing ordinary people. Oh but I also
I love that movie Sensitive Boy in the Hall of
Fame for sensitive boy movies of course. Oh Goodwill Hunting Uh.
Speaking of River Phoenix, Gus Fan Sant directed My Own
Private Idaho with River Phoenix, and he's kind of a

(01:02:24):
sensitive boy director too. Well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
And here's the thing, this is technically the second Robin
Williams in this quiz. Yeah, and it's not very long,
but his character is the sensitive Yes. As much as
like people focus on Matt Damon and sort of his
evolution in the movie, No, the therapist is a sensitive boy.
He's the soft boy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Yeah, you know, the soft boy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
His whole speech about talking about his late wife is
on TikTok like all the time, and every fucking time
I watch it all the way through.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
We need to do an episode about movies on TikTok.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Oh, my god, that would blow the doors off. We
would have what two million downloads.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Easily, We'd have so many gen Z followers.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Put a pin in that casey Jesus. Okay, last one,
last one, Okay, bring up the caboose. Here we go,
last and the Sensitive Boys Quiz number five. A high
school graduate falls deeply in love with a girl from
his class, famously holding a boombox above his head while
it plays Peter Gabriels in your Eyes outside of her
window as the ultimate expression of his true feelings.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Say anything, yes?

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Now?

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Lots of sensitive boys in this movie. John Cusack obviously
ultimate sensitive boy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Do you think that Lloyd Dobbler is the prototype for
the sensitive boy and maybe like the Zach Braff iteration
of the sensitive boy?

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Yeah? Oh, I definitely the prototype for the sensitive boy.
I didn't bring this up, but I feel like a
could be made for Harold from Harold and Mont. Yes. Absolutely, okay,
the graduate, Yes he's a sensitive boy. Sure, but John
Cusack is in that lineage. Certainly. I actually know someone

(01:04:13):
who did this sort of unironically and held music outside
somebody's window like this. What It's one of those things.
It's kind of like Garden State where you're like really really,
but it's still touching and it's a it's a good movie.
It's a little bit darker than I think. Like the

(01:04:35):
whole thing was like the dad going to jail, yes
and saying anything is odd?

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
And is that Cameron Crowe? Oh, I'm just saying I
think Camon Crowe was responsible for a lot of this,
a lot of this malarkey.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
The architect, he directed it. He is the architect for
the Sensitive Boy Boy. What has Cameron crow done recently?

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
I don't know. Is he still married to the one
of the Heart sisters?

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Oh Nancy Wilson, No?

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Oh bow No, Well you got all five right, just
like I thought.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Wowow, thank you Millie, Wow fabulous. Ye, thank you so
much for putting that together. Of course I knew I
would ace it, but it still feels good to get
a good score on that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Now it's time for employee picks. This is where we
recommend movies based on, you know, the things we talked
about in this very episode, Millie, what do you got?

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
I was thinking, what is one of my favorite sensitive boys?
And maybe this is a bit dark. I'm taking it
in the darker direction. I would have to say that
my film recommendation for this week would have to be
a Psycho from nineteen sixty because Norman Bates Wow is
a sensitive boy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Yes, certainly, I would say too sensitive.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Very much, very much. So here's the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Recommending Psycho is like recommending that you drink water every day.
I know it's such a layup.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
But it's so good. I've watched it in the last
two years and it's so I went through a bit
of a Hitchcock thing, yes, a little while back, but
Psycho is so good.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
I think so too. If you're a person who sort
of like again like feels a little suss about the
kind of Cannon film Cannon, classic film Cannon, and you
think Alfred Hitchcock, why what, I he seems like such
a dude or whatever. I think Psycho is one of
his best and feels like a slightly different take than

(01:06:45):
certain things. I mean, honestly, it's great. It's like a
great character study. I think Norman Bates as a character
is super fascinating obviously for many reasons. Yeah, but I
also think, like if you ever read about Anthony Perkins
and the actor who played Norman Bates obviously and sort
of his life before and after he played Norman Bates

(01:07:05):
is really fascinating, Like he really couldn't shake it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Yeah, and he tried a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
He actually tried and then didn't try because then he
started the Psycho remakes. We did all of them.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
I think I have not seen these movies.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
A Psycho four is kind of great, dude, Like it's
weird it out. So it's like there's something to the
idea of like him remaining tied to a film as
the franchise destroys the original legacy of the film. Like
it's that funny thing of like that's a person who
just wants to keep going and keep making worse and

(01:07:37):
worse iterations of this classic.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Yeah, I love that, But I also think.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
That he did try to do some interesting stuff after,
and I think people just thought he was creepy for
the rest of his life.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
I think it's sad because I feel like it's much
easier to pivot to a different type of thing now.
Like people are much more forgiving of Like there was
a time not too long ago when it was like, oh,
you're on TV, you can't be in movies. Yeah, you'd
never be a movie star. And it's like people are
much more accepting of that now, or like, oh, you
started off as this one specific thing and now you
do something else. But like back then, if you're like

(01:08:09):
known as Norman Bates, you're Norman Bates. There's no way
to get away from that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
And also I mean his son, Oz Perkins, who's out
here making a shit ton of horror movies. He did
Long Legs. Yeah, the movie The Monkey is about to
come out.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
He did the Pretty Little Thing in the House. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah,
So I like his movies. He's good.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
So it's kind of cool that his son is a
kind of a horror director now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Anthony Perkins also wrote a great who done it called
The Last of Sheila, which he co wrote with Stephen Sondheu. Yeah,
which is a great movie.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Love that movie.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
That's not my wreck, not my wreck, but it's good.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Well what is your wreck?

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Then? Smarty Pants, sensitive Boy, smarty pants sky over here.
So I brought this guy up already There's a filmmaker
named Hal Hartley and he is kind of a nineties
indie king. I would say his most famous movie is
what would you say, Henry, Henry Fool. He's made a

(01:09:12):
ton of movies, but he is a very independent filmmaker,
Like he owns his own movies, and he like distributed
his own movies. I think he like funded his own movies.
And he's just like a really interesting guy. And I
don't think he's celebrated enough because a lot of his
movies are about sensitive boys, yes, and they're romantic, and

(01:09:32):
they're kind of silly and cute, but also kind of dark.
And he made a lot of his stuff just like
on Long Island, and he's great. I haven't seen all
of his movies. Some of them are a bit eye rolly,
you might say, a little bit like just they're earnest
and they're sincere, and that can sometimes come across as cringey,

(01:09:54):
as Millie said. But I'm gonna recommend one of his
first movies, Trust. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
I love that movie.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
I love Trust, And I mentioned he's independent. Stream it
on his website go to Halhartley dot com. You can
stream it there. Don't rent it from Amazon if you can,
just to support the filmmaker. And a quick story about
Hal Hartley. I'm in the midst of making an independent
film right now and I was trying to raise money

(01:10:21):
and it was really hard. And I wrote to him
on his website what and he wrote me back what
with a very thoughtful email.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Now, I was basically like, how do you do this?
I'm in hell? This sucks. I don't think you'll ever
write me back, but I just had to like express
that to somebody, you know, trying to raise money for this.
He wrote me back the sweetest email, and he was
laying basically was like, yep, raising money even now a
successful filmmaker as I am. It is hell and it sucks,

(01:10:53):
and it was really sweet. Now I don't know if
I would if I ever wrote him back, he'd write
me back. It was just like maybe I just caught
him on the right day. Yes, it made me like
him even more. And so he's like my sensitive boy
king watch trust Yeah. On his website Hal Hartley dot com.
He's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
You know what I love about Hal Hartley. One of
the things of many things is that his like muse
or something was Martin Donovan who.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Was like this cool actor.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
You know what, I what. I kind of think it's
in the same way. It's kind of like Hal Hartley
used Martin Donovan in the same way that with Stillman
uses Chris Eigman for his films.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
Yeah, it's kind of like this, you know actor.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
That they work with in many movies, but that that
actor becomes kind of the archetype for that director's movie.
Totally like the Martin Donovan characters that are in the
Hall Hartley movies, becomes a guy that you just associate
with Hal Hartley and the same thing I feel with
with Stillman and Chris Agman, same vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
All this is to say I missed the nineties so
much because this was like a thing that I felt
like happened a lot in nineties movies, and I just
wish it would happen more.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Yes, So yeah, that's my recommendation. Trust God to hell
Heartley dot com and support him. He had a Kickstarter
like a year ago for his newest movie. I mean
it's hard out there, even for someone who's made a
bunch of movies.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Yeah, Wow, what a cool dude.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Well, that's our show in the future. We would love
to be giving out film advice at the end of
our show, sort of a mail bag of sorts, but
to give you all advice. If you need a specific recommendation,
if you need help navigating a director's filmography, or if
you need a film gripe resolved, please write in. You
can email us at Dear Movies at exactly rightmedia dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Yes, and for some reason you want to do it
with a voicemail. Even if you want to ask for
advice or if you just want to say something to us,
you can do a voicemail and all I gotta do
is record it on your phone. Make sure it's under
one minute, law please and email it to us at
Dearmovies at exactlyrightmedia dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
You can follow us on our socials at dear Movies,
I love you on Instagram and Facebook. Yes, and if you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Are a letterboxed user and you want to follow us,
we are at Casey Lee O'Brien and at M de Jericho.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
Well, Millie, thank you so much for letting me talk
about the most important movie of the twenty first century,
Garden State, and being patient with me, and you know,
being patient rewatching a movie. I don't know if you
necessarily absolutely loved upon your first viewing, So I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Listen, I appreciate that you appreciate it, and I appreciate you,
and that's all that matters.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
Thank you, Millie, Bye, everybody, goodbye.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
This has been an exactly right production hosted by me
Millie to Cherico and produced by my co host, Casey O'Brien.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogle. Our associate is
Christina Chamberlain, our guest booker is Patrick Cottner, and our
artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Our incredible theme music is by the best band in
the entire world, The Softies.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Thank you to our executive producers Karen Kilgareff, Georgia hart Stark,
Daniel Kramer and Millie to Jerico, we love you. Goodbye,
Beker