Michael Mann & Heat (1995) featuring Jamie Loftus

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now a dramatic reading from Michael Mann's Heat.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm angry. I'm very angry, Ralph. You know, you can
bawl my wife if she wants you to. You can
lounge around here on her sofa and her ex husband's
dead tech, postmodernist, bullshit house if you want to. But
you do not get to watch my fucking television set.
And now for another scene. Wait, I gotta look us up.

(00:28):
I gotta look at my line.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Give me, give me my prompt.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Why'd I get mixed up with that bitch?

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Cause she's got a great ass.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
End scene, beautiful, beautiful, Meleany. That was very I was
really nervous to do that.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're a theater person, though, right you were, you took.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Theater, I am, but I'm kind of a shy person sometimes.
But I am a theater person, you know, and I
didn't have as much time to prepare, you know, because
prep is a lot of part of being a theater
in the theater, of course, so you know, I felt
very exposed. But I think it came out okay.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
I mean, consider we decided to do this two minutes ago. Sure,
I think you did it incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
I am not theatrical. I just like trying impressions. I'm
not even saying I'm good at impressions, because I'm definitely not,
but I like trying them, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, I think that's great. I think you know, passion
is you know, eighty percent of a good impression.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I would say, I have no shame. I think that's
the bottom line.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's great. Well, we're talking about Heat today, everybody, Michael
Man and all of his work and the nineteen ninety
five classic Heat, which, like we mentioned last episode, thirty
years ago. Do you remember this movie coming out, Milly.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yes, I do, And maybe this is something we can
talk about because I remember when it came out. I
was an high school and I was like, that movie
is for guys, yes, and not me.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
You're wrong.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
I am wrong. In fact, I'm probably one of the
biggest female Heat fans you.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Could find interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
And I say that knowing that everybody can like this movie.
Now it's not just for christ But that's something that
maybe is gonna come up a little bit with the
director Michael Man, because he's so he sort of has
like a theme going in some of his most of
his A lot of his movies, which we'll dive into.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
And then we also have an amazing my area of expertise.
We have the comedian Jamie loftis host of The Bechdel Cast,
co host of The Bechdel Cast with Caitlin Durante, and
the author of the book Raw Dog, The Naked Truth
About hot Dogs. And she's gonna come on and talk
about Jesus Christ Superstar, which was a first time watch

(03:02):
for Millie. So that was a fun combo to get
to hear your thoughts, your first impressions of it.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, and I feel like you guys really theater nerd
out like, which again is like maybe related to what
you've just done, this dramatic reading.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
So there's just so much hatred for theater kids. They're
like the most hated species of human and I try
to like stick up for them a little bit.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Listen. I like that you do, because I, yes, I
am not a theater person, never have been. I've been
known to, you know, you know, have a few words
about them once in a while.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Shit.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, But honestly, I like that you defend them. And
as I'm getting older, are becoming more and more willing
to engage with the theatrics of your work.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
People are people are embarrassed by sincerity, and I think
that there's nothing more more sincere than a theater kid.
So a lot of people run away from that. But
and I see that. I understand, I understand it. But anyways,
you get it.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's kind of how I feel about being a film nerd.
It's like, you know who you are. I mean, most
people think you're a huge fucking dork, and yet you
accept it. We are cringe, but we are free.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Right, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, on that note, stay tuned everybody for a really
hot episode. You're listening to Deer Movies I Love.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
And I've Got to.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Love Me to check the bo Hello, everybody, you are
listening to Dear Movies I Love You, which is a
podcast for people who are in a relationship with movies.

(04:59):
They when they were kids, they parted ways in after
high school and college, and then somehow came back together
during you know, family reunion in their hometown.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Right, my name is Millie de Chercho, my name is
Casey O'Brien.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
And this episode is episode eighteen. Well we've done eighteen episodes.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Amazing does it feel like eighteen? It kind of does
it kind of does.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah. I did my last podcast. We did like what
two hundred episodes. Yeah, so I still feel like we're babies.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
We're babies. Yeah, but uh yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
We're uh, We're gonna have a lot of fun this week.
I right off the bat, I have to talk. I
have to bring up some film related news.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yes, please. This is kind of a we kind of
do news at the top of the show, so I
think this is a good time to bring that in.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
It's a little film housekeeping. Now, this is kind of
a roundabout film news item, but I have to talk
about it because I think it's absolutely insane. Have you
been hearing the stories about the Annabelle doll that's been
wreaking havoc in New Orleans especially?

Speaker 2 (06:09):
No, Okay, I have seen all of the Conjuring movies,
but I've never seen any of the Annabelle movies. Okay,
So I have some working knowledge of the world from
which she comes from.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Okay, so I I barely know. I mean, I think
I might have seen the first Conjuring movie, but I
barely know, and I actually barely know the real story
that it's based off of. Even though I know that
the the So basically it's a it's a true story
in the sense that the people that are in the
Conjuring are based off of a real life paranormal couple. Right.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
They were like actual, like employees of the Catholic Church,
I believe, wow, going out and trying to like solve
ghost mysteries. I'm actually like scared what you're gonna tell
me about this? Annabelle Doll?

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Okay, it's so okay. So here, I'm gonna back up
and give you the whole reason why I'm even bringing
this up. So the other night, my friend Eddie Ray
is like, hey, guys, if anybody wants to come over
to watch Annabelle, I'll be watching it. And I'm like,
why the fuck are you watching annabel again? Like that's weird,
And he was like, have you not heard about what's
going on in New Orleans? So this has actually happened.

(07:24):
There's two specific events that have happened recently in New Orleans, Louisiana.
Number one is that there was a jail break. Have
you heard about this? So I'm not gonna I don't
know all the details. You can look it up online.
It's everywhere. Basically, there were like ten inmates that escaped
from a prison.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
I saw some tiktoks about this, yes, so yes.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
And basically they like escaped through a hole in the
back of a toilet or something like that. Like and
there's been a lot and listen, TikTok is not good
if you like conspiracy theories, because there's a lot of
people being like, how is that even possible? Like you can't,
Like there's plumbers that are like how is it? Like
how were they able to do this? You know, because

(08:08):
of the unique nature of modern prisons is you know,
it's like, really it's harder than ever to break out
of a prison, let's get serious, right, But somehow these
like ten dudes are managed to do it. So there's that.
The other thing is that there was a huge fire
that happened and it was at the Notaway Plantation.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
And yes, okay, I saw this on TikTok too. I
didn't know as we're connected.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yes, well I'm about to tell you how they're connected.
So essentially this, you know, this plantation that's been around
since like the eighteen hundreds. You know, for most people
who don't who haven't either lived in the South or
didn't grow up in the South. I mean, bottom line
is that the South still has actual plantation homes that
still are around, and you know they are a lot

(08:58):
of times museums and all this stuff. I mean it's
like depending on your feelings about that. I mean, honestly,
they're a symbol of racism and hatred and people hate them. Right.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Didn't Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively get married on a plantation?

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah? And I remember, like, I mean just I remember
as a kid touring old plantation homes when I was
living in like South Carolina, and I mean, they've got
them in Georgia. I mean there was like I remember,
there was this like fucking gas station that we used
to go to pretty much every summer when we were
drive down to like Florida or whatever. That was like

(09:34):
called plantation house and it was basically like a fucking
quick trip, but it was in a plantation house. And
I was like, damn, that's so fucked up.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Did you ever go to soup plantation in Los Angeles?

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Okay? You know I did, the one that's you're the
Beverly Center. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
I don't think that one's there anymore.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Okay. I used to go to soup Plantation with my
friend my friend's April Richard's and Ship Pope, and we
used to rage on sup Plantation. Oh yeah, it's so good.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Sup Plantation is a like a buffet restaurant that serves
mostly soup and salads. They do have hot food too,
but it's like the main chili. Yeah, the main character
is like soup and salads, sostics.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
If you're not a California person. There was a very
very similar comp in Atlanta, at least for a long
time called let Us Surprise You, let us soup Prise You.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Basically oh good double pun Oh.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
I mean, whoever came up with these names? I mean,
sup Plantation is kind of problematic, but let us let
us supprise you. Fuck I went there all the time too,
you know nor Nordard Hills. Everybody knows. Okay, So back
to this plantation.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
I'm sorry I brought up sup plantat derailed.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
You had to. It's like coming out of your body.
So this not a way Plantation has burned down, burn
down to the ground, right, And so people have figured
out that these two events that have happened in New
Orleans have happened suspiciously close to this tour that has

(11:15):
been going on with the actual Annabelle doll. Okay, so
you know the real there's a real doll that you know. Obviously,
the Conjuring movies are based off of Annabelle's based off
of which is like a raggedy ann doll basically, and normally,
this fucking bitch is locked in a fucking museum and
there's like some if you look at pictures, there's like

(11:37):
handwritten note cards on the on the glass being like
do not open this shit, like please, you're gonna unleash
you know, like a demon or whatever. But somebody opened it,
and now it has opened it. She's out, She's on tour.
Casey's like, she's in New Orleans. This is the problem. Like,
so everybody is is saying that the reason these two

(12:00):
things happened, the jail break happened in the plantation burning
now is because the Annabelle doll is in New Orleans
unleashing her powers.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
They should not have let annabel go to New Orleans
because i New Orleans is like the most haunted city
in America.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
I know. And this is the thing is that people
are like, it's if she doesn't leave, then it's there's
gonna be more problems. But here's the thing. There are
people who are actually like, actually, can Annabel come to
my city and burn down the plantation homes there because
we don't like them, Like, come to Georgia, Annabel, so

(12:38):
we can get rid of these fucking old racist homes.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
She's like Godzilla. But can't you fucking believe that that's scary.
I don't mess with that stuff. I wouldn't bring I
wouldn't call upon this doll to visit my home, even
to destroy something evil. That's scary.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Well, now I'm like, Okay, there's gotta be another movie
in the works because of all this this new information.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Blumbhouse, get on it.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
You could do the first part of it being like
sort of Jim Jarmishes down by Law, where you have
like a you know, black and white prison break, and
then you can move it into the you know, your
horror territory.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Or you know what this could be like uh nightmare
on Elm Street. What is it Freddy's new uh new
Nightmare where they're like making a Nightmare on Elm Street movie.
It could be kind of meta.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
You know, man, who would direct that? I wouldn't want
James want on this. I don't know. I don't know, no.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Shade, but who would direct this? Ron Howard uh.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Ron Howard just pops into the like fifth fucking conjuring
movie and it's like, let me, let me try my
head at this.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
He's a chameleon.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Well that fascinating. Thank you so much for informing me,
Millie and connecting these two disparate events that I didn't
even know were connected. Oh spooky, well fabulous. Well that's
the end of movie news.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Maybe forever. Yeah, last one.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
We still have not had any word from people who
have tried out. Bradley Cooper is Philly cheese steak, So
please please do what you can out there, New Yorkers. Okay,
we've dilly dally for too long. We need to open
up the film Diary to talk about the movies we've
talked about we've seen in the past week. God, open
it up. What have you watched now? Full disclosure, We

(14:52):
the last episode we recorded all but two days before
this one, so there might not have been a bunch
of time to watch movies. But let me hear what
you got.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
No.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Well, okay, this is what I'm saying. I'm about to
preface this by saying This is easily the worst film
diary that I've brought to the podcast in our eighteen episodes.
I haven't watched a movie, Okay, technically that's okay, Okay. However,
I have watched a short film that counts. This is

(15:22):
so dumb, so my afore mentioned Fred Eddie Ray, who
told me about the Nibelle curse.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
He seems like he's in the know.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Oh he's listen. Eddie Ray is the king. Okay, everybody
go follow him on Instagram. He is. He is an
absolute king. Okay. He is a producer over an adult swim,
has been for years. He's like obsessed with Halloween, obsessed
with ghosts and aliens and horror movies and K pop,
which I'm about. He's the one that and you know,

(15:55):
basically indicted me into this world. Guide he is my
and on that note, he and I the other night
watched So I did not know this because I don't
know a ton of bands. Right I'm only starting to
get my footing in this whole world and it's been
a year. By the way, have I told you my

(16:16):
origin story of getting into K pop music? I tell
you about this. So I went to a party at
his house. This was last year, last March, and he
was having a little K pop party and he was
all of his friends were there. Who's shown us all
these videos before that. I had like no idea what
the fuck it was. And the only reason why I

(16:36):
remember this is because I caught COVID at that party
for the first time.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Sounds like you caught some other kind of fever too.

Speaker 5 (16:43):
Well.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
I've been telling people that I have long COVID symptoms,
and the main one is that I like K pop.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
I wonder if that doctor Fauci has ascribed that as
one of the long COVID symptoms.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
So I'm at his house the other night and he's like,
did you know about their there's an entire K pop
vampire band.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
I did see some posts. I think I caught a
little coffin on stage, a tiny, tiny coffin on stage.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
So this shit is wild, Okay. So there's this band
called in Hypen or in hot in Hypen no no,
and hypen in hypen anyway and hypen it looks like
e N hYP e N and hypen right, So this
is a band of a c I don't know how

(17:42):
many people are in the band, but they're vampires and
there's all this like lore and stuff and they and
they just came out with these photos that make I mean,
they're insane. They look like this true true, like it's
all like kind of bordering on like the fetish world,
I have to say. I was like, damn. And then
I quickly he quick told me that there's this other
new band that has come out called a Team okay,

(18:06):
and they are ware Wolves. They're a were wolf k
pop band. And there's apparently a video on YouTube that
links the two bands together, like what is coming out
of the frame and then and the other one's coming
into the frame or something.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
This feels like some sort of continuation of the Twilight saga.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Okay. I was like, if this is what K pop
is gonna be, I'm in. I'm like, listen if they
got it. If there's an alien K pop band, I'm
in there. Like how many other I mean, what do
we what do we got like mummies? Can we do
like K pop mummies? I don't know. I'm just like
obsessed with this really like high concept ship that's going

(18:50):
on right now. So I he had to show me
there's this short film that this band in Hypen has done,
and it's like the name of it is called like
untold Concept Cinema. And the whole reason why I'm even
bringing it into the film diary is because the word
cinema is in the title. So I'm like, it's in cinema.

(19:14):
But it's this eleven minute about twelve minute short film
where the members of this K pop band are traveling
through this kind of like no vampire zone that is
like it's very dingy. It kind of looks like the
beginning of Terminator. It's like they're definitely in like downtown Lah.

(19:36):
They're all in like one like Chevy suburban van and
and they're basically trying to get to the other side
of the no Vampire zone man. And then and then
they they're they're they're a suburban gets stopped by these
like you know, militaristic future you know, anti vampire hunters,

(19:58):
and then there's like a I mean, dude, it is this.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
I feel like this could this should be a movie.
See I think it should too a feature.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah. So, and like I looked up the guy that
directed it, and he's directed other things, Like I think
he's done a couple of things on Netflix. But I'm
like Oh, this is like a fully realized cinema yeah experience.
Like I was like, and they're just like they're getting
there's parts where they're getting like shot by bullets, but
of course they're vampires, so they're not feeling the feeling
the bullet holes. I mean, I was like, I'm blown away.

(20:33):
I'm blown away by this information.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
So incredible. What was the name of it again, It's
called Untold.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Now. I don't know if Concept Cinema is actually in
the title. It's in a title on YouTube, but look
it up.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
It's made by Concept Cinema maybe.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah. There's like there's like this one section where like
somebody radios or something that's like seven confirmed vampires.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Oh my god, Untold. That's so funny. That's like usually
like the biopic or like it's like a biography of
like a diva or something. I don't know for that, Okay,
like let me tell you right now.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
This is one of my favorite things about K pop music.
I definitely think there's something that's lost in translation. But
every I swear to god, every K pop band has
an album that is literally like the most dramatic fucking title,
and it's usually like a word colon a phrase or
like or like two like two words colon one word.

(21:38):
It'll be like the Star chapter colon truth untold or
like or like you know, Map of the Soul colon tear,
and you're just like, I gotta tell you. It sounds great,
but it means.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Like, I don't know what does nonsense words?

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, So anyway, I hope that they all come out
with this movie. It's like a full length movie. They
name it something funny like that, and I can follow
the lore of this vampire K.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Pop am all right, very good.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
So that's it for me again, very very very light week.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
I had a pretty late week. Two. I saw twenty
twenty four is The Fall Guy with Ryan Gosling and
Emily Blunt. It was fun. It's directed by David Leech,
who did I believe? He co directed the first John
Wick and then he did movies like Atomic Blonde and
Bullet Train and those are all pretty fun action movies,

(22:40):
and this is a fun action movie.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
So I thought she were gonna say David Lean, the
director of Laurence Oft.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
David Lean, he's one hundred and eighteen and he's directing
these cartoonish action movies. No, it was good. It was fun.
And then I watched a movie that I really enjoy
with Ben Affleck. Came out in twenty sixteen. It's called
The Accountant. Have you seen this movie?

Speaker 5 (23:07):
No?

Speaker 1 (23:07):
And like, actually I want to.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
It is pretty It's like pretty over the top, campy genre.
It feels like something that would have come out in
like the eighties, you know. And you know, I don't
know if it is necessarily complimentary to the neurodivergent community,
but he is supposed to be on the spectrum and
that gives him special, you know, brain abilities to be

(23:33):
an amazing accountant. But at the same time, he's also
learned all these martial arts and military skills and he's
very efficient but socially awkward and it's kind of fun.
There's a sequel and I can't wait to watch it.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
I I get every bit of information in my life
from TikTok as. You know, I had no idea that
Ben Affleck is fluent in Spanish.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yes, he's fluent. I watched those tiktoks a lot too
good for him. His mom, I believe, is fluent in
Spanish and maybe from somewhere in South America. I could
be incorrect.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
About that. Yeah, yeah, lived in Mexico or something. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, there's something like that. And it's funny because I
don't think j Lo is fluent in Spanish, but Ben
Affleck is.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
So I gotta tell you. You know, my old co
host of my old podcast, Daniel Henderson, was a huge
Ben Affleck fan, and we talked about him quite a
bit on that podcast, and I at the time didn't
know this information, and I feel like if I had
known about it, I would have retroactively been crazy for him,
just like she is.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
I have a soft spot for Ben.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, I never did until meeting Danielle, and now I'm
like watching him speak Spanish, I was quite frankly blown
away from Allin's perspective.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
If you don't wow from allin perspective. Okay, very good
from that vantage point, but that's it. That's all I watched.
So okay, let's close up those diaries.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Oh my god, these vampire k poppers.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Moving on to our main discussion, Millie, ooh, what a
good movie we're talking about today, Heat from nineteen ninety five.
Now you have said that you're a huge Heat fan.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Why oh why? Okay, a lot of it has to
do with the director, Michael Man. M I always like
hesitate to ask this question now because it's like, even
though you might not have been around for like a
certain era of things, you know, and Netflix and all

(26:01):
these things happened that you can watch anything that you can't.
But I was a child during the Miami Vice era,
and Miami Vice, for people who don't remember, the original
TV show was a sort of like I gotta tell you,
I think it's sort of one of the first sort

(26:21):
of like prestige televisiony type of things, right sure, and
you know, like kind of that whole eighties era of
this kind of like I don't know, elevated television. But
Michael Man was an executive producer and he was a
huge influence on the way that it looked and the
way that it sounded, and it was like and it
was a show that featured Don Johnson, the father of

(26:46):
Dakota Johnson, and Philip Michael Thomas, and they were like
a pair of like detectives working in Miami, and you know,
they were trying to bust all these like drug cartel
types and Edward James almost was their chief who he
was my favorite character because he was very like by
the book Stoic type. I remember this TV show coming

(27:07):
on now. It was very much here towards adults, even
though the concept of it was like supposed to be
you know, it was very influenced by MTV, so it
was like one of the first shows to play popular music.
So it was you know, they licensed like all this
popular music and it was always playing like you know,
new wave bands and stuff. And then you know, it

(27:30):
was very art deco Miami, like whites and pinks and blues.
Like I read somewhere that Michael Mann was basically like
no browns or oranges on the show. It's gotta we
got to have like a bright, you know, pastel palette.
But the show itself was very I feel like, very

(27:53):
much like kind of set the table for maybe something
like heat and certainly stuff you know, like I mean,
I think he did Manhunter around the same time that
Miami Vice was on, but you know, he had already
done Thief, and Thief was like basically Miami Vice. So
it's kind of like a connective tissue between like some
of his earlier stuff and his later stuff. But to

(28:13):
get to your original question, that shit, that world, that
he's created with like the visuals and the kind of
characters that he puts in these worlds is so appealing
to me. And I think it's because it feels like

(28:34):
going back to our couple episodes back when we talked
about Alen Delon and the Samurai, it feels very French
crime stuff. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, because
there's this kind of like methodical character study thing happening.

(28:54):
I mean, I'm sure there's explosions and there's gunfights, and
there's like a lot of like high drama stuff happening,
but for the most part, it's more about like the
interior lives of these criminals and these cops, and it's
more I don't know, there's like the pacing of it
is really attractive to me. It kind of shows you
kind of the inner workings of things and how to

(29:16):
set up crimes and heist and what the cops do
in order to bust people. And I don't know, just
like how the sausages made type of stuff, and I
just love that. And when you pair that with again
his sort of like very appealing visual style, I mean,
I just like go crazy for those Michael Mann crime movies.
And I feel like he was kind of the big one.

(29:40):
I mean that he's I mean, it became a classic
and it's influenced like so many other directors, so I
was it's kind of irresistible, even though I did not
watch it when it first came out.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
So yeah, I mean it's interesting you your connection to
like French criminal movies like this, they are he is
sort of existing in that tradition in the way that
it's like what if a criminal like loves poetry, or
like if a criminal is like thoughtful and has emotional depth,
And it's like kind of like posing that sort of

(30:14):
question with the types of criminals that he has in
his movies. Man, Like, Yeah, like you talked about the
colors of Michael Man movies, there is just like a
Michaelman vibe. There was a shot in Heat and I
think it's in like downtown LA at night and a
car is just turning onto an empty street and like

(30:34):
the light on the street is like blue at night,
and it's just like this just feels like a Michaelman world.
And we talk about that all the time with movies
like them being what makes them so enticing and exciting
is being able to enter a very specific world that

(30:55):
feels a certain way, and Michael Mann certainly has a
world he's created, and his universe feels a certain way
that's like totally uh intoxicating.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, And I gotta say in the world too, is
not too precious, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
Like it feels like it's lived in but it's not,
because you're you know, obviously talk about people like Wes
Anderson or even Hitchcock, where you're like, Okay, these are
like very methodical, distinct, curated, exactly curated worlds. But his

(31:33):
world is curated, but it's not. It still feels natural
and not artificial. And like that's the thing about Manhunter,
which Michael Man also directed Manhunter in nineteen eighty six,
which I talked about last week in my film diary
a little bit because I fell asleep during it, and
but I've seen it many times. Okay, that movie looks incredible,

(31:59):
and that's why I'm like, Okay, again, this is like
a consistent style. But again it feels very eighties to
me in a way.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Like yea, even in heat neon.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, even in heat, there's a different color palette happening
in heat it's a little darker, but there is like
a I don't know, some sort of like Patina to
it that feels like a Michael Mann Patina. Does that
make sense? Yeah, well, I was wondering, do you want
to give a synopsis to people?

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Do I have a very short You know, this is
a long movie. It's two hours and fifty minutes, but
it is kind of a It's not an uncomplicated plot
because a lot happens. It's almost like a novel this movie,
but it's the basic structure of it is pretty simple.
Neil McCauley played by Robert de Niro, is a true professional,

(32:51):
professional thief. He runs a very tight crew and takes
down huge scores. He is like a pro, very serious,
very professional vincent Hannah al Pacino. He is an equally
obsessed police detective who is trying to take down McCauley's crew.
These men are both insane and there's an awareness that

(33:11):
there's a huge score coming up. Robert de Niro's trying
to pull it off. Al Pacino's trying to thwart him.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Who will win.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Also, they have dysfunctional relationships with women, and they are
trying to handle those while they handle their professional lives.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, it's the whole movie to me seems very like
Shakespearean or kind of Greek tragedy, like because it's like
you hear, I've felt like, you know, the good versus
the bad, and they're kind of cat and mousing, but
they're also there's also kind of this weird like appreciation
for the others' work. Yeah, because they're both kind of

(33:52):
like the same type of guy, right.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, And I mean there's the famous scene where al
Pacino and Robert de Niro get coffee together. They're like
in the middle of this movie and they like, I mean,
it's very obvious to the audience and to the characters themselves.
They're like, we have such respect for each other. If
we weren't doing this, I think we'd be best friends.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, you know it just yeah, yeah, No, it's a
very like game recognized game thing happening. Yeah. So, God,
there is a lot of meat on this bone, So
I apologize if I go a little ham get it.
So I want to go back to kind of what

(34:32):
I first talked about, uh, sort of near the opening
of the episode about heat and sort of Michael Mann
movies being dude movies.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yes, What are your concept of a dude movie?

Speaker 1 (34:46):
What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe in
dude movies? I mean, I know we don't believe in them,
believe in them, right, but you know in that kind of.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Like do I believe they exist?

Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah? Or like you know, is there or have there
been times in your life where maybe you've had like
girlfriends or something or you're like female family members that
have been like, I'm not watching it. That's a guy movie.
I'm not watching that shit. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
I think there is certainly a type of movie that
men predominantly love and seems to be made for men.
A movie like Heat is such a beloved dude movie,

(35:31):
Like I feel like the most annoying guy this is
his favorite movie.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yeah, or like Scarface or the Godfather movies. Yeah, all Paccino,
anything that Pacchino's in. Yes.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
You know when you say a dude movie, it's like
a movie that is like cool and stylish in some
capacity and maybe does have like actually, I think this
is part of it too, that it dude movie has
to have some sort of emotional depth to it so
that a guy can really feel invested, be like whoa
I'm like feeling feelings.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
I would literally that's it, Like, that's what I was
trying to get you to say. In a way, I
was like, these are movies that put dudes in their
feelings so fast. Yeah, And it's interesting because you know, Okay,
first of all, when we when we say this concept,
I mean we're obviously we're kind of going on a

(36:30):
stereotype of kind of these like cis hit dudes who
are just kind of again like in their feelings about
a movie that is not actually about people who are emotional.
It's about like them trying to be emotional via other
things like crime and money and something like that. So

(36:51):
that's to me, I think what the dude movie to
me has always symbolized, which is just like guys who
watch these movies and are able to finally feel things
in some way.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
I also think though, like if you say, like your
favorite movie is Heat, that doesn't betray a masculinity, you
can be like, oh, yeah, totally dudes, dude, it's kind
of like a secret that they feel things when they
watch it. But if you say, like, you know a
more it. You know, if you say your favorite movie

(37:26):
is like Portrait of a Lady on Fire, that says
something about you emotionally, you're like, oh you you you
are a thoughtful person, you know, or like you have
a lot of emotional depth to you. You have a
lot of feelings, and you're open with your feelings. But
if you say your favorite movie's Heat, it's kind of

(37:47):
like you can still be like, oh, I'm just like
I'm a man's man, you know, it still has the
shield of being a manly man. You know what I'm saying,
right right, And that's it's yeah, it's very my' like
a okay, like here, I'm my masculinity is protected because
my favorite movie is Heat, which I think obviously now,

(38:09):
I mean we're talking about like nineties, like mid nineties,
I guess we were still all still caring about that
a lot. I think that's slowly being dismantled, thank you
very much, modern masculinity. But it's like that feeling of like,
so I think that that is what made me not
want to watch Heat for a long time, of course,
and it really wasn't until I was older that I

(38:32):
actually watched it and that I began to really love
just the Michael Mann movies like and then I of course,
you know, I kind of got into French crime films
and noir and stuff. I kind of opened the world
up for some of this, even though these are not
issues that I deal with on a regular basis.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
I don't deal with or care about men trying to
have feelings with their friend who's a cop and their criminals.
You know what I mean? This is that very I
guess I don't really have a ton to grab onto
in that way, but I find it fascinating somehow. I
love the character studies and that kind of stuff, and
there is something like super super fun about Pacino and

(39:15):
de Niro together.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Right absolutely. I mean that was a big thing when
this came out, was that they're advertising it's like they're
actually this is the first time they've ever been on
screen together, these two titans of cinema, and they've been
in they were in the same movie. They're both in
The Godfather too, but they're never share a scene together.
And they're in sort of similar types of movies in
the seventies and eighties and stuff, and so to have

(39:39):
them kind of face off, it's a big deal, you know.
And it is this sort of these sort of two
titans of masculinity in some ways Italian masculinity, Italian masculinity.
And I will say al Pacino is uh a wild
man in this I was.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Gonna say, first of all, I have to ask you,
are you a Paccino or de Niro boy?

Speaker 2 (40:05):
I'm a much I'm a huge Pacino boy. I'm a
Pachi pachchi year leader, er leader. You know. I like
Robert de Niro. But I might get struck dead by
saying this, but he does kind of the same thing

(40:29):
a lot of the time.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
M hmm mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
And like, I feel like al Pacino he is so
wild in some of these scenes. It's kind of like,
is does he know the cameras rolling? Like he just
seems so insane in some of these scenes, Like and
he's taking such big swings that it's like almost outrageous.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, he has. Like this is the thing about Pacino's
acting is that he seems like he's being possessed a lot. Yes,
Like you can tell his eyes go off to the
like when he's like in this moment, You're like, oh fuck,
like he's gonna explode. I don't even think he really
knows what he's gonna say. Like he's kind of being
possessed maybe by the Annabel doll, but you know whatever.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Like, but get the Annabel Doll away from al Pacino.
He's become it's made him do crazy things.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, and like you're right about well, I won't say
you're right about de Niro being kind of one note,
but he is like he has this he's an archetype, right,
and which a lot of people have glommed onto it.
And I like him.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
I don't dislike him, yeah, you know, but I just
think about that scene with like Albert. I think he
is this like criminal they check in on out who
like kind of out in the boonies. Do you remember
that scene where they're like setting up a meeting with
his brother at a club, this criminal Albert and like
al Pacino, I think it's Albert. Is that his name?

(41:53):
You mean?

Speaker 1 (41:54):
Tone Loake's brother, Tone.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Loake's brother that they had the first meeting with where
he was like I was just gonna come see you, Vincent,
and he's like Albert, Albert WHOA. He's like just bouncing around,
standing up. He's like, don't fucking waste my time.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Ho.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
He's like dancing around and it's like almost like he's
not in the scene, like it's like he's doing such
crazy He's kind of just like looking around, bouncing in
his chair, and I mean he's it's so nutty.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, I mean, and like, here's the vibe. He's always
been this way. If you watch like Dog Day Afternoon,
that's basically him going Attica attica, but in a different,
different time, in a different era. Like he's he's been
this type of actor his entire career. And so I
guess when I do watch Heat, I'm just like reminded
of how much I enjoy his stupid shit. Like I'm

(42:43):
just like, I love this stupid shit, like whatever it is.
I mean, it's actually there are times where I'm like,
this is good acting. There are times where I'm like,
he's possessed by the Annibel doll, and this is fucking
weird and funny. So I wanted to ask a little
bit about this because I have to. It's just my
nature to want to talk about this. But so everybody

(43:06):
in this movie, all the men in this movie, for
the most part, maybe not tom Noonan, which we'll talk
about in a second.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
We brought him up another tom Noonan appearance on our podcast.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Tom Noonan working in master Control in the archives of
the old cable television building. Uh, they all have for
the most part women in their lives, like wives and girlfriends,
that kind of stuff. Now, the scenario is you've got
de Niro's crew, who feature actors such as Danny Trejo,

(43:48):
Tom Sizemore, Belle Kilmer most famously right yep. And then
there's the Nazi guy. We'll talk about him later because
he sucks. Yeah, it's just mean girl. No, oh, Wayne, girl,
don't you go to him a mean girl? Like to
say the least. Casey, he's a bit of a girl.
So there's actually this really famous scene of all of

(44:09):
them going out to dinner and it's kind of like, okay,
everybody and his crew comes to dinner, their lives and
their kids are there. It's this very like, you know,
nice celebratory kind of event. And then you've got de
Niro's character, right McCauley. Now, he sort of famously is
single for this movie. He eventually meets a woman, but

(44:34):
up until that point he lives this kind of very austere,
no attachments, get in and out kind of life.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Like.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
It's kind of his famous line in the in the film,
which is don't let yourself get attached to anything you
are not willing to walk out on in thirty seconds
flat if you feel heat around the corner.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
So, this is why this motherfucker has no furniture in
his house. This is why he has no partner, this
is why he's got no kids. And he's just like
ready to go because he's like, I don't attachments weigh
me down and get you in trouble. If you're trying
to be a master criminal, you can't have your shit right.
But at some point he wants a girlfriend. I mean,

(45:21):
let's get sire. He just wants a girlfriend. He's looking
around at this dinner. All of his partners have partners
and everyone's getting diamond rings and the kids are giggling
and all the shit. And now he's like, oh, I'm
a little lonely. So he ends up meeting this woman, Edie,
who is played.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
By Amy Brennanman Amy Brennanman.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Now this woman he meets in a bookstore, effectively she
works at the bookstore. They're at a lunch counter and
she's like, hey, come in often, what's your name? What
you do this? And then or first he's like, what
you trying to know about me lady, like I tell
you shit. But then he softens and then they start
dating effectively, and that it moves on. Obviously, this is

(46:08):
a big storyline in the film for him. But this
is the thing that I wanted to talk about in
terms of the male characters in this movie, but also
the male characters in a lot of Michael Mann movies,
which is that they seem to be men who want
to leave the business to have a stable life, and

(46:31):
usually that stable life has to deal with women and
wives and girlfriends, which I think is a very interesting
theme that reoccurs MM. And there's definitely different scenarios going
on in Heat because like, for example, the Val Kilmer character,
his wife is played by Ashley Judd, and she they

(46:55):
have a kid, a small child, and she's just like,
all right, you you're a criminal. Then you come home.
Then you come home and you make you know, you
gamble all your money away. What are we going to
get a better life. We live in a shitthole apartment, like,
let's get it together. And he loves her very much
and doesn't want to lead it, doesn't want her to

(47:15):
leave him, but he is kind of unable to work
on himself. I guess, yeah, and then you've got you know,
obviously McAuley being this like very like one foot up
door type of guy, doesn't want a girlfriend eventually wanting
a girlfriend. And then you've got on the other side,
this al Pacino character who is effectively in a relationship.
He is the step dad to a woman's you know,

(47:40):
teenage daughter who's played by Natalie Portman, and you can
tell he wants that life. He wants to be married
and wants specially wants to be the dad to this
Natalie Portman group, but his job is too important. And
so this is I think what I want to talk
about is that idea of like the push and pull

(48:01):
for these men who are like, but I love my job,
but I want my woman and the woman's unhappy, and
what do I do. I can't I'm obsessed, I can't
have to answer my pager, I can't be at the
recital or whatever. And so I don't know, I mean
to have that come up because it also comes up
in Thief, right, yeah, with the James conn character who

(48:22):
also is like trying to date or trying to have
h love in his life. So I mean, don't you
think that's a weird thing to kind of keep coming
up in different films.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yeah, it is interesting because it's also interesting because that's
just such a sort of a normal problem, yes, that
you know, the balance of family and your career, and
it's and I feel like a lot of men sort
of think like, well, my avenue to a life that

(48:52):
can be easier in the future and I can then
give more time to my family. The avenue to get
to that place, that imaginary place in the future is
through working harder through my job, I will get more
money and then I'll be able to take more time
off and be with my family more. But that's sort

(49:13):
of a fallacy in real life, and also in these movies,
you know, they can never there's no future place where
it will be easier to be with the woman of
your dreams. You know, you have to kind of do
that now, not at some future point, you know.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah. The interesting thing I think, to be honest, I
think the Paccino relationship is maybe the most interesting because,
I mean there's a lot of stuff that happened. There's
a lot of stuff. By the way, trigger warning and
spoiler alert, right, there is a scene towards the end

(49:55):
of the film where the Natalie Portman character, who is
again his kind of stepdaughter, the daughter of this woman
that he's either married to or dating, and you know,
basically her real father is like nowhere to be found,
and she just seems very you know, unmoored by all
of this trauma. Let's get serious, and she ends up

(50:19):
attempting to unerlive herself in a bathtub in al Pacino's
character's hotel.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Which is sort of an interesting choice because al Pacino
has effectively been kicked out of his own home and
is staying at a hotel, and we just have to
assume that Natalie Portman looked up where he was staying
and then decided to end her life in the bathroom
of the hotel where he was staying.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
And I gotta tell you, I mean, I've seen this
movie a few times now, man, it is so tragic.
When that I was like, is this kind of like
too much? Well, and like this is I think the
the constant runner in the film for his character is
that he's he's basically like I think he feels very

(51:08):
tenderly and there are times where, like there are scenes
in the film where he acts very human towards family members,
his own family members, but the family members of people
who have died in the film. Like he's and you
can tell he's like rocked by all of his all
of the job stuff that he has to have where
he has to like deal with horrible crimes and and

(51:30):
it's almost like he knows. He's almost like he knows
that this is messing with him and that's and it's
like hurting him on like a psychic emotional mental level, right, Yeah,
but he almost can't help it, like he's like, well,
this is my life. My life is that I'm so
fucking badly damaged by my job that I cannot have stability. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
There's a scene that I was kind of made me
like laugh, but it illustrated how obsessed he is with
his job. I think it's the one where he comes
home and his wife is getting ready to go out,
and he's.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Like, where are we going? Where are you going?

Speaker 2 (52:14):
And she's like, I'm going out, and she like leaves
and goes out, and he had just come home from work,
but he kind of sees that she's going out and
he's like, okay, cool, I can go work some more then,
and he leaves and like hops in a copter, you know,
like to go like but it's like he can't even
It's like she really is holding him back in a way.
If she wasn't there, what would he be? He would

(52:37):
be even worse.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, you know, yes, yeah, I mean there are times where, yeah,
that balance is kind of kind of nutty.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Not couldn't be me. I would never work that much.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Really, you would quit this podcast to go and hang
out with your wife and your daughter. I mean, i'd
let you. To be completely honest with you, I want
you to have work life balance right now.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
I do. But you know, the game, the podcast game.
It's just I'm addicted to it.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
I know. I keep paging you nine to one one
to be like answer my phone calls. All right, we
got to talk about I'm sorry now that I'm on
this tip, we gotta talk about Eadie and this whole fair.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Note in your notes. In your notes, it says, ain't
no fucking way.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
This fan dango, dude. This is the one thing about
Heat that I literally cannot get over, which is this
fucking book selling graphic designer who fucks McCauley. On the

(53:58):
first night, he was sort of mean to her.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Well, I was gonna. They meet at the coffee shop
and he has a book on medals that he bought
at her bookstore, and she's like, what are you reading?
And he's like, fuck you care what you what are
you talking to me for? And I'm like, it's amazing
he went from that to sleeping with that woman in
one night. Like he's such an ass Like so she's like,
stay out of my business, and she's like, Jesus Christ, sorry.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Listen, I'm probably as hard up as anyone as anyone
at this point in my life. But if that I
would never sleep with a guy. If he was that
mean to me at the beginning, like that is so crazy.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
I would have Really he was really in the negative.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
He really you know what, I'd need a second date
with this guy because he was kind of an asshole
to me when I asked him about that my book.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
Not even kind of an asshole, but like like it's
like he was about to fight her, like eating soup
at a counter.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
It's like, yo, eatie, feel this guy out a little bit, okay,
come on, girl, like Jesus Christ. So there's that thing
where I'm just like, okay, she I don't know. Clearly
was like fuck it right. So then there's the whole
like her whole backstory is so insane because it's like,
she's from Appalachia has.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
The word it's way too complicated because he asks where's
your family from and she said Scotland and then they
came to Appalachian the seventeen hundreds. I was like, why
do we need to know this about the character?

Speaker 1 (55:35):
I was like, so you are not from Scotland at all.
Like when people are like, oh, I'm Irish, like my
family came to America like in the fourteen hundreds, or
I'm like okay, like yeah, that's a long time ago.
Aren't you just from North Carolina? Just say it?

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
So She's Appalachian has the worst Southern accent.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
By the way, Sorry, no shade to She's Appalachian went
to Parsons in New York City and is now in
Los Angeles for the graphic design, but is working at
Hennessy and Ingles, the famed architecture bookstore in Los Angeles.
It's like, what why is this in the could I
feel like they could have cut out a little bit of.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
That, Oh, Parsons, I forgot she went to Parsons that
is so so funny. But this is the thing, is
that the whole basis of her character is to give
DeNiro some like human steaks, right, It's like to get
his ass on the ground, put some roots down, because

(56:46):
he's so fucking insane about it. Like he doesn't have
furniture in his house. He doesn't have furniture. Val Kilmer
shows up after he's gotten kicked out of his own
house by Ashley Judd. He's lying on the fucking floor
or taking a map. Yeah, I listen. If I went
to your house when to visit you in Minneapolis and

(57:08):
you didn't have anywhere for me to sleep, I'd be like,
my friend is fucked up, dude.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Like, oh yes, you would be like you would think
I'm Christian Bale and American psycho or something. Okay, spoiler
alert for the ending here. I do think, not that
this is a weakness, but it does make me kind
of like question why he did what he did. So
the end of the movie is essentially Robert de Niro,

(57:39):
not everyone in his crew, but Robert de Niro gets
away and he has the money he did it. He
got away and he's about to get on a plane,
but he finds out at the last second that Wayne grow,
the guy who sold him and his crew out, is
hold up at this hotel. And this is sort of
bait that al Pacino has dangled, hoping he would take it.

(58:04):
But it's sort of confusing why he He's such a
professional and he's showed so many times before that he's
willing to like cut everything off just for the score,
you know, and yet he goes after this guy and
kills him and that is eventually his downfall, and he's
not doing that. I think it would have made sense
if he ended up doing something in order to be

(58:28):
with Edie and that got him killed. It doesn't make
sense sort of from a story point of view, why
he did that or why that got him killed. Does
that make sense what I'm saying, Like, it's like I
feel like he would have been more professional and just
walked away from that situation. He was so good about
walking away. Why couldn't you walk away from this one?

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Well, because the whole movie is about guys who just
can't help it. They got to sabotage their own happiness
in order to get revenge or get their thing, And
it's like that's what it makes it so Shakespearean and
so kind of Greek tragedy. Like, but I want to
put a pin in this for a brief moment. I
want to go back two fucking steps. Yes, why is

(59:12):
this bitch going to New Zealand with this guy?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Why did Edie?

Speaker 2 (59:18):
She finds out, like the night before she's to leave
New Zealand that hey, I am not a metal salesman.
I am actually a murderous criminal. And you know, like
all those hundreds of people that are dead in downtown LA,
that was me. Let's go to New Zealand. And she's

(59:39):
mad at first, Oh yeah, but she forgives it, seems,
and is willing to go to New Zealand.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
This is some fucking looking for mister goodbar shit. I
can't even tell you cause I'm like, Okay, she's pissed
on the on a cliff by the way, like they're
having a conversation in the dark on the side of
a mountain about this guy being a violent, disturbing criminal,
and she's just like, oh, I'm so pissed at him,

(01:00:09):
I can't believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Don't kiss me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
I'm mad, God, I thought you were a metal salesman.
What the fuck I'm like, first of all, I would
never see that motherfucker in the nighttime. I'm I'm scared
of him. I'm officially scared of him. But apparently she's
got like no street smarts whatsoever. She's like, Okay, fine,
I guess I accept that you're a horrible, violent criminal

(01:00:31):
who's been a jail and let's hug it out or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
I killed multiple people today.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Today in the same day that we're having this conversation.
And then like, so there's that where I just was like, Okay,
she accepted this shit real fast, which I just very
much believe is fandango maloney malurky. Okay, but I get
that you have to like move this fucking story along

(01:00:57):
or whatever. Then he's like, baby, I got a run,
Like I gotta run. John Voight is setting us up.
He's gonna put us on a plane in New Zealand.
Are you coming or not? And she's like, listen, maybe
her job at the architectural bookstore ain't all that, and

(01:01:20):
maybe she can do graphic design from anywhere, she can
work from home from anywhere making her CD covers, But
there is no fucking way in hell I believe that
she's going to New Zealand with this guy. Even if
she was scared of him, Well, she's clearly not. But
I'm just saying, this is so insane to me. I'm like,
there's no way she just met the guy. She literally

(01:01:42):
just met the guy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
It ended up being okay for her. I think, I hope.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
I want to get back though to your point, your
original point about yes, whether or not it sucks for
the plot line that he I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I'm just kind of like this doesn't fall in either
camp of him being professional or him following his him
being weakened by his emotional relationship with a woman. Yes,
you know, it's sort of this in between. I'm just like,
I just don't. I don't know. I was like, that
goes against everything he's done in this movie up to

(01:02:18):
this point. But it does make sense in terms of,
like he can't quit the job.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Sure. I mean, if I was him, I've been. I
was on the phone with John Voyd. He's like, guess what,
You're home free, baby. Here's all your money, here's your flight,
here's your girlfriend. All you gotta do is drive to
Lax and you're and you're gone, even if in a
moment's notice, somebody had been like, hey, remember that asshole
that you hired who ended up being a Nazi scumbag
who killed a bunch of people and sold you out.

(01:02:45):
He's just like hanging out at a hotel by the airport.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
On the way on the way, right next to Elix,
actually wearing the.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
Fluffy robe and slippers that they give you. What are
you gonna do about it? I would be like, you
know what, maybe somebody else will handle it. Maybe, like
even though it's terrifying that he might like spill some
information and like get caught or whatever. I'd be like,
somebody will also kill him. Maybe ve'll kill them or

(01:03:14):
will kill him. Somebody else will will handle them, or
he'll just be such a fucking dumb ass go back
to jail or get himself killed. Like, well, what is
he gonna what is he gonna spill too? Write?

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Actually, Robert de Niro stole that money. They were like, yeah,
no shit, we were just shooting at each other.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
So I'm saying, like, the effort is not worth the
reward in that way, the juice is not worth the squeak. Absolutely.
I love that phrase, by the way, I say it
a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
But you know what, the face off between Pacino and
you know when they when Pacino and de Niro at
the end, when they're like holding hands, I got a
little give me a break, who I felt a little thing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
You'd have to be a stone to not feel your feelings.
First of all, that sequence is so stressful. It is
because you really have no idea. You have no idea,
and it's pretty much silent, does not even ambient sounds
happening in the background except for like planes taking off.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Who do you think was better prepared fitness wise to
run across that field? Robert de Niro or Al Pacino?

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Wow, what a question.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
I have a definitive answer. There's a clear answer for me,
there's a clear answer.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
I feel like Pacino was not tactically dressed as well.
Mm hmm, Like he's probably wearing like dress shoes from
floor shime or something, and he's just not like he's
not dressed to be running through a old Yeah, And
I feel like so I feel like in that way,

(01:05:04):
de Niro is better suited for that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
Well, if we look at the history of their roles,
you know, de Niro gained a bunch of weight for
Raging Bull, and then he got in super good shape
to be in Raging Bull. He has a history of
body transformation, bringing him you know, his uh you know
body to a film in a certain way, and I
don't think Pacino has that history. Also, Pacina just seems

(01:05:28):
like more of a madman and was like smoking packs
of cigarettes while filming this movie. It seemed like, So,
I just feel like, I just think those running sequences
would have almost killed al Pacinos.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
What I'm saying, I mean, how old were they? Actually
probably in their forties, older than that? Oh do you think? So,
let's let's see do the math.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Al Pacino is fifty five, Holy shit, really yeah at
the time of this movie, and Robert de Niro was
fifty two. And it should be said that both of
these men, al Pacino and Robert de Niro, who are
respectively eighty five and eighty one years old, I believe,
have newborn children.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Oh God, don't even get me started. I was like,
can the Annabelle Doll haunt those guys so that they
never have any more kids?

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Can the annabel Doll put a curse on these old
man penises so that they stop start shooting blanks? For
God's sake? What the fuck?

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Get come on, get a fucking sex. Just put a
jack bag of frozen peas on it and call it
a day. This is insane, guys, this is insane. It's disgusting.

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
Is there?

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
We really gotta move on?

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
We have I'm sorry, Jesus, we have really squeezed the
sponge out of yes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Oh my goodness. Well, let's move on to our a
different type of conversation, one with the wonderful Jamie Loftus,
where we talk about another insane movie, Jesus Christ Superstar. Okay, everybody,

(01:07:18):
this is another installment of my area of Expertise segment.
We bring in an expert to talk about wealth. They're
area of expertise, and today we have another expert. It's
Jamie loftis the co host of the podcast The Bechdel
Cast with Caitlin Dorante. She also hosted the short series
which I Really Loved, My Year in Mensa, that chronicles

(01:07:40):
the events surrounding her applying to joining Mensa. She's the
author of Raw Dog, The Naked Truth about Hot Dogs. Jamie,
thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
I'm so happy to be here talking about one of.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Your area of expertise, which is.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
Jesus Christ Superstar seventy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Three wonderful Now, Jamie, I have a very deep personal
relationship with this movie too. I would say it might
be the movie I've seen the most in my lifetime.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Really wow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Yeah, I went to Catholic school and we watched it
every single year, at least once a year. But I
want to hear about your relationship with Jesus Christ Superstar,
how it came into your life, and how it became
I guess your area of expertise.

Speaker 5 (01:08:26):
That's so fascinating to me because as I was rewatching
this movie. I watched this movie, we bounced around, We
sampled a lot of religions. When I was my parents
were traumatized Catholics, so I was like a baptized Catholic.
But we went to we went to a Wiccan church

(01:08:46):
for a while. We but we sort of ended up
settling at this congregational church that was at the time.
I hoped this isn't still true, but at the time
it was the only queer friendly Christian church in my
town and it was a pretty I mean, I thought

(01:09:07):
it was boring because it was church, but it wasn't
traumatic outside of being boring.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
But this was.

Speaker 5 (01:09:14):
It was a very like substitute teacher energy going on
at the Sunday School. It was not intense, it was
not scary, and it was a lot of Jesus Christ
Superstar on VHS, a lot of the Prince of Egypt
on VHS, a lot of veggietails.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
They were just like they put on a.

Speaker 5 (01:09:29):
Tape and left the room and they were like, hopefully
you grow closer to God today.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
But I was.

Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
My mom was I think like ten when Jesus Christ
Superstar came out, and she was obsessed and she and
was not religious, but was really excited to share it
with me. We listened to the soundtrack a lot and
then I saw it for the first time in Sunday.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
School, probably when I was like nine or ten. And
the opening it's not the opening shop.

Speaker 5 (01:09:59):
But like that slow push in on Carl Anderson in
the orange outfit. I was like, gone done. I was
obsessed with Carl Anderson. As a kid, I was like
on Team Judas.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Which is like so like this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
It is interesting. The main character of Jesus Christ Superstar
is Judas essentially, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:10:22):
In every way like and I think you know Ted
Neely does a great job and him going get out
is like still one of my favorite moments in all
of cinematic history. But like Carl Anderson just takes the show.
We see Judas get resurrected and not Jesus like I
at the time I was, I was weirdly, I don't

(01:10:42):
think this movie really made me more interested in religion.
It made me more interested in my religion as a
middle schooler, which is musical theater.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
I was gonna say, yeah, I wanted to ask you
right off the bat, what is your relationship to Andrew
Lloyd Webber if you have one?

Speaker 5 (01:11:02):
So it's it's certainly become complicated over the years. He's
a bad man. But my mom was a huge Andrew
lew weberhead. It was Jesus Christ superstar.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
And she was also really into Phantom.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
I remember like one of them me too.

Speaker 5 (01:11:19):
Like one of the huge like revelations of my childhood
was realizing that Phantom and the Hunchback of Notre Dame
have all the same story beats, and so that I
could take my Hunchback of Notre Dame dolls and have
my mom turn on the Phantom soundtrack and just act
out the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:39):
And that was like my favorite indoor kid activity.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
You could recast the hunchback figures to play it in
Phantom of the Operation.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:11:50):
I mean the Phantom is quasimotive, Christine is Azrarelda, and.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
The Kevin Klein guy is the Patrick Wilson guy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
Millie, what was it? What was your impression as the
movie started, like as a person who just watches for
the first time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Yeah, I want to preface all of this by saying,
I think I think you guys have a lot in
common in terms of the musical theater elements and the
and the Jesus Christ Superstar elements. I this is a
first I watched for me, so and to be honest, like,
I do not know a ton about theater. I saw

(01:12:30):
Cats the movie before seeing Cats another, And I gotta
be honest, like, I've always thought that Andrew Lloyd Webber
was kind of ridiculous and like like a lot of
his you know, is like I don't know his pumpit circumstance, Right,
So I came out of this with totally fresh eyes,

(01:12:51):
and I gotta say, like, I this shit blew my
fucking mind. Like I was like, first of all. I
was literally googling because I'm also I grew up Catholic too,
but I didn't go to Catholic school or anything like that.
I'm a terrible Catholic when it comes to like knowledge,
Like I was looking up, Oh, what did happen at
the Crucifixion? Do I know what? Who was at the

(01:13:15):
Last I literally googled who was at the Last Supper? Yeah,
And I didn't realize, Oh, it was just the Apostles.
I was like thinking it was just random people. Like
I couldn't even remember who was at the Last Supper.
So I was literally googling all the historical facts, but
that it didn't even really matter because this thing is
an entire show, like it is from start to finish,
just like this huge production.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
It's Oh, I'm so glad you like it. So it's
like and it also is like, I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:13:47):
I was I remember being like, Mom, is this what
the seventies is? And she's like kind of kind of
like the whole like just so many great line reads
that I was showing it to my fiance for the
first time, and he also was not prepared for the
raw power of Jesus Christ superstar of just like.

Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
One thing I'll say for him, Jesus is cool. You're like,
what a weird thing to do.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
That in that scene where it's like we need a
more permanent solution to all problem. And I feel like
I say that to my wife and she has no idea,
like what I need to I need to show it
to her so she can fully understand who I am
as a person as well.

Speaker 5 (01:14:30):
So much choreography, like I just and and von Ellman
as Mary is so like her.

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
Both of her songs make me cry.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Yeah beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
The most famous one I think is the how do
how do I love?

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
I don't know how to love him?

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
Yeah, so good, Oh my gosh, so good. Do you
have a Is there like a song or scene that
like stands out particularly for you?

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:15:08):
I mean any of the Judas songs heaven on their minds?

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
I do.

Speaker 5 (01:15:12):
I think I listened to it at least once a week,
like just in my life.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
It puts me in a great mood.

Speaker 5 (01:15:19):
I don't mean, I do really appreciate that because I
think Andrews like Weber, He's also like this, like you know, Nepoie,
like grew up with a shitload of money, so he
was able to get this production off the ground in
his early twenties. And he blatantly rips off the Batman
theme like in the it's so weird in a.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
Scene like.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Yeah, I can't I never put that together, but I
hear it now.

Speaker 5 (01:15:47):
Yeah, but yeah, I love Heaven on their Minds and
Superstar are my favorite. Cad the outfit Judas. I think
the movie is on Judas's side because, like, look at
the outfit he gets to wear at the end of
the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
It's so much better to Jesus is totally.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
It's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
My mom like she was like, oh Judas's voice that act,
he's incredible. He is like the Star. And she was like,
the guy who plays Jesus, I don't like his voice.
Like my mom was like very anti Jesus in this movie.

Speaker 5 (01:16:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
It's interesting about Carl Anderson. I love that you love
him so much because I there was a moment when
I because I had no reference for this at all,
Like I was just I don't even know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
Who's in it, who plays Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
So when I looked at the castles and I was like,
Carl Anderson, how do I know that name. For me,
this is random as shit, So just walk with me here.
When I was a kid, I remember Carl Anderson because
he did his duet with this woman, Gloria Loring, and
they did this song called Friends and Lovers that was

(01:16:47):
on Days of Our Lives, the soap opera Days of
Our Lives, and it was this like huge song, like
I think they played it at like my dances, like
they would play it at his like school dances and stuff,
and it was like we used to play like on
the radio constantly, Like sometimes you'll hear it at the
drug store. Now, if you listen to it, you'll be like, oh,
because it kind of sounds like a Disney duet or something.

(01:17:09):
It's huge. It sounds huge. But that's how I know
Carl Anderson is from Days of Our Lives.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Basically wild I.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Know, and so I couldn't believe it was him. I
was like, oh my god, it's that guy. It's amazing.
It is fine.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
I don't like really know. The only person I know
in this movie that I like know he isn't something
else is the guy who plays King herod Zero must Yeah,
Zero Miste's son, who plays the principal and Billy Madison,
who's like in love with Billy, and it's like, that's
like the only other actor that I from this that

(01:17:43):
I've seen elsewhere.

Speaker 5 (01:17:44):
God, I didn't realize cause I watched half of it
and then it was edited in iMovie, so I had
to turn it off. But there was like it was
on Amazon Prime. It was I think made by like
Ted Neely's friend, like less than ten years ago, the
remaining living cast meeting up and talking about the production,

(01:18:05):
and it was interesting, but it was it was really
edited in iMovie.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
The audio is so bad.

Speaker 5 (01:18:11):
But I didn't realize that like Ted Neely and Carl
Anderson were the understudies, like they were just Broadway understudies,
because I mean, and there is the whole I mean.
When I started thinking about this movie critically, I had
to make myself stop because you're like white, you know,
white Jesus black Judas, that the optics are bad, but

(01:18:32):
the I guess the original Broadway Judas was Ben Vereen
and you're like, oh, that was probably really good. And
then Vone Elleman was the original Mary. I think she's
the only like.

Speaker 3 (01:18:47):
Broadway actual carryover to the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
I hope.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Yet it's like we don't really know. And I don't
feel like any of them went on.

Speaker 5 (01:18:54):
To like have the like huge careers afterwards. I think
they're almost fa this for being in this movie.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
Yeah. I think Yvonne Ellman, she had one, she had
one popular song. It was I think it was in
Saturday Night Fever, but it was like, yes, if I
can't have you at Alan, Oh, yeah, that's the That's
how I even know her name.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
But I didn't even know that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
Again, like random songs and I'm like, oh, these people
are in Jesus Christ Superstar.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
What the hell? Like they're people of the seventies, I
know well.

Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
And also I want to ask you about the seventiesness
of it, because you were talking to you, You're saying
about how your mom, You're asking your mom what was it?

Speaker 5 (01:19:32):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
I feel like this movie really took advantage of the seventies,
like early seventies like hippie lifestyle. We're like everybody in
the movie is kind of sweaty and gross but kind
of hot and like they're dirty hippie hot. Yeah, in
like in a very seventies kind of way.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
They don't let people be like that in movies anymore.
The teeth.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
People are just really fucked u like bad skin. Some
of them had bad skin. And I was like, this
is like a thing that they don't allow famous people
to be anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
It's true.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
One thing I didn't I didn't have time. There's I
don't know. When I was like getting ready for this,
I was like, oh, I have.

Speaker 5 (01:20:15):
So many more questions, but like I'm curious, I have
no idea, but like that because I'm pretty sure God's
Spell came out basically at the exact same time as
Jesus Christ Superstar in the early seventies, and like both
launched really because that was like by Stephen Schwartz. Yeah,
And I'm like, what was it about the early seventies

(01:20:36):
that made like these hippie Jesus musicals? Like what what
was in the water that that was happening?

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
That is interesting and it's funny because I always growing
up was like, oh, God's Spell is like the ripoff
of Jesus Christ Superstar. But I think God's Spell was first.

Speaker 5 (01:20:55):
And so I need to I feel like there's your
because my my aunt and uncle they were Godspell family,
where Jesus Christ Superstar family.

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
And Coke and PEPSI Yeah, I had no, I mean,
I need It's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
I don't know. I still to this day, I'm like
gospel's trash.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
I haven't. I haven't even I don't. I don't think
I've even seen it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
My loyalties lie with jac Superstar.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
So did you Jamie growing up? You know you're watching
this movie. They're wheeling it in on a you know,
Sunday school to watch it. Were you were and it?
Were you alone in your fascination with Jesus Christ Superstar
or did you, like you any of your friends have
any like particular love for this or was this sort
of you and your mom fascination?

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Yeah? Like it Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
Like many of my passions.

Speaker 5 (01:21:44):
I was no one in my peer group to share
my enthusiasm for Jesus Christ Superstar.

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):
It was nice.

Speaker 5 (01:21:52):
It was a nice thing to bond with my mom
over and just musical theater with my mom in general.
And I had plenty of you know, friends in l
Entry into middle school that were really into musical theater,
but I couldn't get anyone into this particular one. It
was like, I feel like I was in middle school
and the Chris Columbus rent adaptation came out and I

(01:22:16):
made a lot of friends around that. The time I
met my college roommate at a local production of Rent,
when I was like, really twelve, Yeah that's so funny,
but yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:27):
Jay Z's Superstar. I get why it's a hard cell.

Speaker 5 (01:22:30):
It's hard to get someone to sit down and watch
it with you because it sounds like it's gonna be boring.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
Uh, yeah, it's not boring. I'm just gonna throw that
out there. I mean, as much as I am so
uneducated about anything involving Catholicism, despite the fact that I'm Catholic,
I was like riveted. I mean, there are some truly
insane moments. There's it feels a little gay am I

(01:22:57):
with the guys and the harnesses. I don't even know
who that way, I don't even know who they were,
but it was it felt very like, I don't know,
like leather Natty and the desert type of thing. No.

Speaker 5 (01:23:13):
Absolutely, and then there felt like there was a gay
character right like King Herod is like so heavily queer coded.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
Yeah, like it's I don't know why that choice was made.
I just know that I supported.

Speaker 5 (01:23:31):
The moment where like, oh my god, I used to
like act this out and I would play both parts
in my room where the scene where Jesus and Judas
are are feuding after uh and then Judas runs away
with the sheep, and it's all very symbolic whenever, but
where they like touch each other's hands in this very

(01:23:51):
particular way and like touch each other's faces, and it
I was there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
I was there with them.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
It's what I It was like that scene.

Speaker 5 (01:24:03):
And then there was some scene in the first Pirates
of the Caribbean movie between Jack Sparrow and Orlando Bloom
where I was.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
Like, they should kiss, like this movie wants you. I
think this movie wants Judas and Jesus to kiss.

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):
Jamie, do you feel like you know you said musical
theater was like a big part of your life as
a young, younger person. Do you feel like it still
is a big part of your life, And if so,
how does that come out in like the work you're producing.
Do you think it has any influence on you today?

Speaker 3 (01:24:39):
I wish it had more.

Speaker 5 (01:24:40):
I just don't have any musical talent myself, and so
I feel like I in musical theater, I guess consistently
has been one of the main like escape mechanisms for me,
and I think part of it I kind of love
that I have. I couldn't be a ambitious in that

(01:25:01):
department if I wanted to be. I can't write lyrics.
I can barely function in at a karaoke night. But
I love musical theater and it's just it's it still
feels just like a really and it's just nice. I
don't know, like hanging out with uh because I wasn't

(01:25:21):
super into musical theater in college because I went to
an art school and I do think there's such a
thing as being too into it. Oh and so for
a couple of years, I was like, we're gonna put
this interest on the back burner because I actually don't
want to talk about it for like seven hours a day.
But then later on like kind of came back to it,

(01:25:43):
and yeah, I still I love. I love the amount
of sincerity that it requires to do musical theater well,
and I love the amount of I mean, like in
this music is such a good example of like what
a big weird fucking swing at something, and it like
doesn't work unless everyone is fully committed to this big

(01:26:04):
weird thing. And if that's I mean, that's as close
as I like. I always want to try to take
swings like that, and what I do, I can't do
it in song. But I just love how committed everyone
is to Jesus in the Desert.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
Well, Jamie, thank you so much for being on the
show to talk about Jesus Christ Superstar in the seventies.
Is there anything you'd like to plug.

Speaker 5 (01:26:27):
Yeah, my my book Raw Dog, The Naked Truth about
Hot Dogs is coming out in paperback, and I'll be
on tour at an objectively random list of cities throughout
the spring and summer. And so yeah, if you follow
me on Instagram, Oh my god, literally my instagram is

(01:26:48):
Jamie Christ Superstar.

Speaker 3 (01:26:50):
Well I never got to say I love that that. Yeah,
this I'm not I'm not a fake fan.

Speaker 5 (01:26:58):
So yeah, if you follow me and instig grab at
Jamiechrist Superstar of all my book tour dates are.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
There, fabulous. Well, thank you so much. And listen to
the Bechdel Cast Get Great, one of the best movie
podcasts out there. Thank you again, Jamie, really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:14):
Oh, thank you for talking to me about this. What
a dream.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
Alrighting, now is time for employees Picks, where we recommend
a movie based on the conversation we had today, Mellly,
what do you get?

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
Okay? So I know there's many different avenues that we
can travel down for this episode. So I'm just gonna
go down the al Pacichi one because oh Nice talked
about I'm going to recommend a movie from nineteen seventy one.
It was directed by Jerry Schatzburg and it's called The
Panic in Needle Park.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
Ooh, I've never seen it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
It's a good one, very bleak. It's about heroin addiction.
It stars it's him and Kitty Wynn who was in
the Exorcist films, and it was actually co written by
Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
Yeah, she wrote an essay about this.

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
Yes, absolutely. So it's basically like a story of these
like two heroin addictive you know, young people in New
York City. It's like really grim. They're you know, in
a relationship, they're trying to keep the relationship together, but
it's really you know, it's obviously very difficult when you're
in the throes of addiction. And the poster, now, the poster,

(01:28:39):
if you look it up, that poster to me was
something that was I used to like, stare at this
poster all the time because it's so evocative, Like it's
basically like huge black letters. It says, God help Bobby
and Helen. They're in love in Needle Park, and it's
like a black and white It just kind of looks
like kind of tabloidy. It's very like but like to

(01:29:01):
sell a movie, You're like, holy fuck, that's that does it?
That makes me want to see a movie?

Speaker 5 (01:29:08):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):
This is kind of dark. But I always told myself
that if I ever got married, I try to like
do my wedding invitations to look like this poster.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
That's good. That would be good.

Speaker 1 (01:29:18):
God help them, God help them, they're getting married, and
it would be uh met me and like a nasty
knit cap I. Yeah, I this movie. If you're in
for that kind of movie, like a really dark, gritty
New York seventies drug film, it's for you. And al Pacino.

(01:29:40):
I know that he's not supposed to look great in
this movie, but he looks great. He's young, and he's
in love, so love it. Yeah, that's my wreck. What
about you?

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
Awesome? I have two recommendations, and I'm picking two because
these are two movies. Because these are like both like
children of Michael Mann.

Speaker 1 (01:29:59):
Movie, Oh I see, I see, Okay, Okay, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:30:02):
Why I'm And neither are as good as Heat, but
I feel like they were both heavily influenced by Heat,
and they're they're fun. One movie I'm recommending is twenty
twenty two's Ambulance with Jake Gillenhall. Did you ever see
this movie?

Speaker 1 (01:30:22):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):
I hadn't riten by Michael Bay and it is wild
and it's about a bank heist gone wrong and they
escape in a ambulance, so it's obviously incredibly inspired by Heat,
but it's fun. I had a good time watching this movie,

(01:30:43):
and it definitely is more like If you love the
shootout sequence and heat, this is that movie for you.
But if you love the vibes of heat, I recommend
twenty eleven's Drive by Nicholas Winding reference during Ryan Gosling,
which is so clearly inspired by Heat and Michael Mann
the neon the soundtrack. But this was such a big

(01:31:06):
deal when that movie came out in my little circle
of people, and I really enjoyed it when it came out,
and I've seen it recently and I've enjoyed it less
but it's still a good movie, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
Can I tell you a little secret, Yeah, I've never
seen drive You've never seen Drives. No, it's good.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
It's very of twenty eleven, so I would be curious
kind of you seeing it now. It's very stylish. Albert
Brooks is really good in it. And yeah, I don't
know if I would say you need to see it, Millie,
but I like that movie, and I don't love all
of Nicholas Winding Reffens movies, but yeah, this one's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):
Yeah. No, I think I'll probably like it, to be honest,
even all of the hype and stuff that came around it,
and after it, I think it's still like it, so
I will watch it actually.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
Okay, Okay, wow, Millie. We recorded another episode. Thank you
so much, Jamie Loftus for joining us today. It was
really fun to get to talk about Jesus Christ Superstar,
a really wacky movie. Check out her podcast, The Bechdel Cast.
But yeah, that's wow.

Speaker 1 (01:32:26):
Another episode, Canny believe. Well, next week we're gonna do
another deep dive into a topic that I personally I
have a lot of steaks in.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
We did Prince and Purple Rain this is somewhat. This
is kind of an equivalent to you. Yeah, it's your
area exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
We're going to talk about Southern Gothic films and we're
gonna focus it on the classic film Elizabeth Taylor Paul Newman,
written by Miss Williams kat on a hot tin roof
from nineteen fifty eight. So we're gonna actually go backwards
in time and watch a more classic film. But it's

(01:33:09):
gonna be fun. I have a lot to say about it,
so please join us.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
I've never seen this movie first time.

Speaker 1 (01:33:17):
Watch for me talk about men and their feelings. Oh,
you're gonna be in your feelings about it. Don't make
me feel.

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):
Fabulous. Well, if you want to write into our show
to ask for film advice, I promise we'll do that
segment again sometime soon.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
Please do so.

Speaker 2 (01:33:34):
Write into Deer Movies at exactlyrightmedia dot com. I'm reading
all your little emails. They're so great. And if you
want to send us a love letter too, we'll take
those two. We won't read them on the air, we'll
just print them off and you know, fold them up
and keep them next to our hearts. So you can
write in or you can send us up voicemail, which
we love. We love playing people's voicemails on the show.

(01:33:55):
Just record it on your phone and email it to
Dear Movies at exactly rightmedia dot com under a minute
and record in a quiet place, please, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
And follow us on social media. We are at Deer
Movies I Love You on Instagram and Facebook, and we're
individually on letterboxed. So Casey is at Casey le O'Brien
and I'm at m de'chericho.

Speaker 2 (01:34:20):
That's right, And please listen to Deer Movies I Love
You on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
get your podcasts. And hey, while you're out on those
internet streets, please rate and review our show. It means
ever so much to do when you do that, so
if you're able to, please do so.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
All right, Casey Millie, great job this week.

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
You too, Milli. You really brought your a game and
I was just trying.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
To keep up. I told you I'm never going back.

Speaker 2 (01:34:50):
Milli and I are virtually holding hands as she loses consciousness.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
See you guys next week. Bybee. This has been an
Exactly Right production hosted by me Milli to Cherico and
produced by my co host Kasey O'Brien.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfocal. Our associate producer
is Christina Chamberlain, Our guest booker is Patrick Cottner, and
our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
Our incredible theme music is by the best band in
the entire world, The Softies.

Speaker 2 (01:35:23):
Thank you to our executive producers Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark,
Daniel Kramer and Milli.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
To Jericho, we love you. Goodbye, Becer

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