November 12, 2024 • 60 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers! This week we're in session with Diane, who has been struggling with pregnancy loss and infertility as she and her husband try to have a second child. She wonders how to deal with her grief, the envy and guilt she feels about friends' and family's pregnancy announcements, and what it means that she and her husband are dealing with this rollercoaster of emotions so differently.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
This week, our fellow traveler struggles with the heartbreak of
infertility and pregnancy loss.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I had a really, really, really hard time without loss.
I was probably a month out from surgery when my
brother and sister in law announced they were pregnant. It
really kind of sucks the air out of me because
I was like, Oh, now she's going to be pregnant,
and oh, we could have been pregnant together. And that
really caused like a big friction in my relationship with
(00:58):
my brother and sister law because I just didn't want
to be around them.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
First.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:25):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partwor
and full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.
In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed
for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Lourie, Hey guy,
So what are we going to talk about today?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We're going to talk about pregnancy loss and here's the
letter we got. Dear therapists. I've been struggling with the
pain of pregnancy loss and infertility for almost four years now.
We were blessed with our first child five and a
half years ago and had no trouble getting pregnant with her,
had he wealth the pregnancy and birth. Since then, I've
(02:03):
had an ectopic pregnancy resulting in losing a fallopian tube,
a chemical pregnancy, and a miscarriage. All losses were early,
but so painful. It's been two years since our last loss,
and I haven't even been able to get pregnant, so
now we're dealing with infertility. In the meantime, our daughter
has asked so many times about siblings, and I know
(02:23):
she would be a great big sister. Almost all of
her friends have siblings. I struggle so much being surrounded
by pregnant women everywhere, it feels like, and especially in
this world of social media, every holiday means another round
of pregnancy announcements. Right now, both of my sister and
laws are pregnant, one with her fifth child and one
with her third, and here I am as barren as ever.
(02:47):
We've caught plastic mostly out of our kitchen. I've met
with a nutritionist, taken supplements, and I'm even doing acupuncture.
And so someone else getting pregnant without all that feels
especially defeating. I'm tired of everyone else's prest affecting me
so much. I was a person who loved pregnancy announcements
before this. I don't want to keep saying, well, I'm
happy for them, but sad for me. It feels so selfish.
(03:10):
It also doesn't help that I constantly struggle with people
automatically assuming pregnancy equals a baby in nine months, So
much can happen. I've met women who've lost babies at
every stage of pregnancy. I'm just really tired, tired of
trying to live in the present and also trying to
have hope for a different future. I try to be
happy with where I'm at. Some days I think I'm there,
(03:31):
other days I'm not, And some moments I just crumble.
Please help, I feel so lost. Diane.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, what Diane is describing is grief, and it's a
really complicated kind of grief that she's dealing with. It's
sort of an ambiguous grief because it's not like someone
dies and there's the grieving and people gather around and
they're there to comfort you. It's often a silent loss,
(04:02):
like with the loss of the pregnancies. It's ambiguous grief
because you don't know when or if this thing is
going to happen, so you're always every month that you
get that pregnancy test, you're dealing with another loss and
then this question of what am I going to lose
going forward. So I can understand why she's struggling so
much with this, and I.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Think what makes it more difficult is that she's right
when you lose pregnancies the way she's lost them. There
are a lot of people who shrug it off, who
don't take it seriously. She didn't make the announcements probably,
so a lot of people probably don't even know that
those things happened. And yet she's walking around with one
loss after another after another, feeling absolutely bereft, but not
(04:45):
able to get perhaps the social support, not able to
really even explain to people why it's so painful because
some people will get it, some people won't, and having
the constant, constant reminders around her, which is exactly what's
soa painful in these cases, that there's pregnancy all around,
especially when you're queued into looking for it, and so
(05:06):
just seeing it everywhere and not being able to complete
it is just excruciating for her.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And then on top of that, she feels like a
bad person for feeling what are very normal reactions to
the kind of loss that she's experiencing. So let's go
talk to her and see what we can do to help.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after
a quick break.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I'm Guy Wench And this is Deotherapists. So, Diane, welcome
to the show.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Thank you, Hi, Diane. Hi.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
We'd like to hear a little bit of the backstory.
Tell us a little bit about this journey that you've
been on and how you're feeling about it right now.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, So about five and a half years ago, I
had my first daughter, and I had a really normal pregnancy.
It was very easy to get pregnant, and I had
had a rough delivery, but still pretty good and kind
of by any standard, and then really struggled hard with
(06:21):
postpartum depression. I had a lot of a lot of
trouble adjusting to life as a new mom, like just
being needed one hundred percent of the time. I was
trying to breastfeed and pump and wasn't sleeping a lot,
and so I had a really really rough transition. I
(06:42):
always kind of knew I wanted multiple kids, but there
was a while after that I was just like, I
can't even imagine having more than one. I just you know,
needed to get through that period of time. And then
even the early kind of toddler years are pretty hard.
But when my daughter was about too you know, we
were pretty open to trying for the next one and
(07:06):
got pregnant fairly easily again and was really excited. But
then I ended up going to the er like a
day or two later because I was just in so
much pain, and I was in there and they did
an a like an early kind of ultrasound, and I
should have been about I think it was like seven
(07:28):
weeks or something, and whatever they were supposed to kind
of see, they didn't see, and so then they were.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Like, could be a topic, it could be a miscarriage.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It could just be that you're like earlier than you
think and everything will be okay in a couple weeks.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
So it's very unsettling.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
I actually remember being at the hospital and my husband
getting a text from his best friend and they said,
we just found out we're having a boy today, and
I was like, wow, that could not be worse time,
Like I'm happy for them, but I'm finding out that
I could potentially be losing this child. So it was
very up and down, very stressful.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
This was going on over the course of a few
weeks where you didn't know if the pregnancy was viable.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It was really kind of like a one to two
week period, and I was just in a lot of pain.
And they kept saying, well, if it gets to the
point where it's so extreme you you have to be
doubled over, then go to the er because then it's
you know, life threatening.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
So it was just like.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Really stressful because I kept thinking, Okay, well I'm in
a lot of pain, but does this mean.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Is it like life threatening? Is this is this bad
enough to go to the er?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
So once they determined that it was ec topic, they
gave me this medicine to help and then you know
it would be good, we won't have to do surgery.
And so I did that and was just still in
so much pain, and the doctor was just like really
(09:01):
confused because ninety percent chances should have worked, and was
ultimately like I don't want I want to do surgery
if I don't have to, because then there's always possibility
of having to remove a tube if you, you know,
do surgery.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
So after just being in a lot of pain and
kind of.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
The emotional effects of everything and having a two year
old at this point, so trying to you know, balance
just the daily struggles of motherhood as is I, we
just like ended up saying let's just do the surgery.
And I remember the first thing I asked when I
woke up, was did you save the tube? And they said, no,
(09:39):
we had to take your right tu about and so
I was just like, and the doctor had said, that
doesn't half your chance of getting pregnant, it reduces it
by like, I don't know, thirty to forty percent or something.
So after my surgery and when I was finally just
like not in so much physical pain, I really felt
(10:03):
started feeling the emotional pain of losing this pregnancy, of
losing this child. And I had a very very hard
time with it.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
During this time that you were going through all of this,
What was going on between you and your husband? How
were you both dealing with it?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
He was very supportive in just kind of being there
with me. For me, We're lucky that we lived near family,
so we had a lot of times that like my
parents would just take our daughter. So he was able
to be there with me for the surgery and everything.
He's just not a talker. He's not a sharer of feelings,
(10:47):
so I don't think he always necessarily knows how to
express himself. Even though he was really there physically and
provided a lot of that physical support and you know,
let me cry on him kind of emotionally and things
like that. It did still feel very isolating.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
When you lost the pregnancy and then found out that
you lost the Filippian tube as well. Did he ever
share with you anything about how he felt about what
was going on?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I mean I remember asking him like, are you sad
about this?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
You know?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
And he was like, yeah, I'm sad, Like he was
sad that I was so sad. So he always said,
I am sad to see you so sad, and I'm
sad that this is, you know, causing you so much
pain physically and emotionally, having it like happen in your body.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
It's very very personal.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
And I felt like I did something to fail as child,
Like I did something to fail the pregnancy.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I caused it.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Why couldn't my body sustain it?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Can we go back from it? I just want to
ask you about the postpartum depression. May I ask if
you were treated for it, how long you had it,
how your husband was doing that?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah? I was treated for it.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It was very difficult for me to find help, which
is very frustrating. I went very fast into a very
dark place and I ended up in the er. And
they wanted to admit me, and I said, well, I
really want to breastfeed my child. I really want to
(12:25):
be with my child, and they were like, you can't be.
And I didn't end up going in at that point,
and then we tried to call like a woman's center
that was kind of nearby, like a woman's mental health center.
They said like, are you a harm to yourself, to
(12:45):
your child or somebody else?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
And I said no, and they said, well you don't qualify.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
And I was like, I can't be alone with my child.
I can't like think straight, like I have these bad thoughts,
but I'm not going to do anything. And then I
try to go to my ob and I had already
been on medicine for like anxiety prior to pregnancy, and
so I was on that medicine and so the obee said, well,
(13:11):
I can't prescribe anything else because that's compounding and I'm
not qualified. And you guys are in the profession, so
you know this. But you try to call a psychiatrists
and they're like, we can see you in six to
eight weeks, and you're like, no, I need something now,
I need something today. I basically ended up finally at
(13:32):
my primary care physician, and they did prescribe me well
beutrined to go with my I think I was so
loved and thankfully that was finally the like combination that worked.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
But it was a very very long few weeks.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
My mom was only supposed to we lived like four
hours away from our parents at this time, so she
was gonna stay for like a week after the baby
was born to help, and she was there almost six
weeks because I was just like in such a bad place,
and my husband was absolutely amazing, just like caring for us,
(14:12):
for all of us.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
You said, Diane, that you had a traumatic birth, and
you kind of skipped over that. Sometimes people experience postpartum
depression because they have a history of depression. Sounds like
you have a history of anxiety. Sometimes that can be
compounded by having a traumatic birth, and then when it
turns out okay, often people ignore that. They say, oh,
(14:36):
look you got a healthy baby and now everything's fine
and congratulations and it's amazing, and you're like, I'm not
feeling amazing. I'm overwhelmed. I just had a traumatic birth.
I'm adjusting to this new role. Were you able to
talk with anybody about the traumatic birth and the impact
that it had on you or did people just kind
(14:56):
of ignore that and you went home and everyone acted
like everything was great.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, I guess I didn't really have a chance to
process it at all. I almost feel bad saying it
was traumatic, because it was. It was traumatic for me,
I guess, but like in the grand scheme of berths,
it was it was not traumatic if.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You were not minimizing it. Can you tell us what
was traumatic about it for you?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
It was so long.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
It was the most mentally challenging thing I've ever had
to do. I was very set on doing an all
natural birth, and I had like digging classes and done
all this stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
And it was basically like.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Three days of on and off labor, like hard enough
labor that I'd have to get done on the floor
and you know, breathe through it. Like at the end
of the day, I was able to have a natural birth,
but like I thought, I was dying. I wanted to
go to sleep. I at one point was like, just
cut this baby out of me. Like I was just
(15:59):
absolute lutely exhausted. By the time she was finally born,
I had no energy left in me, and so I
just kept saying like I just want her to be
born so I can sleep, and like, that's the biggest
joke of all, because when you have a newborn, you
don't sleep.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
You wanted her to be born so that someone could
then take care of you because you've just been through
all of this, and instead it was, oh, I have
to take care of this baby.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And again, like I think a lot of it was
pressure I put on myself, Like I was so intent
on I'm going to exclusively breastfeed until she's four years old,
and you know, twenty four hours later in the hospital,
she's screaming and crying and she's not getting food, and
the nurses like you need to give her formula and
I'm crying and my husband's like, just give her the bottle,
(16:50):
you know. And so I was putting all this pressure
on myself, like now I'm a horrible mother because this
class I took told me, and now I'm giving her
poison and all this stuff. And so just started out
in this like whirlwind.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
But then it is hard because I will say that
I also felt.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Very empowered, like the fact that I was able to
have her all naturally and the fact that I was
able to complete that process so it felt empowering, but
then it was just also so overwhelming, and the fact
that somebody handed me a child and was like, now
you need to make every decision for them. And I
remember saying to my friend like, can somebody give me
(17:29):
a manual? I will follow it. I will do exactly
what they say. I will feed her this much, I
will do this. But trying to figure it all out
myself is very overwhelming.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So Dave was very supportive of me again, but I
think just didn't understand why I was holding on so
tightly to these things. Like he was sort of like,
if it's so hard for her to eat, it's really
okay if we just give her formula.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
He didn't understand what it represented for you, because there's
so much conflicting information out there, and new mothers are
told all kinds of things in very absolute terms. This
is toxic, this is poison, this will hurt your baby,
this will hurt their development. And so I think that
maybe he didn't understand that giving her formula represented something
(18:15):
for you, whether it was accurate or not correct.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Yeah, that's a good assessment.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
There's this concept in psychology called good enough parenting or
good enough mothering, and the idea of the concept is
that it's impossible to be a perfect parent. Really the
bar is can it be good enough? And I'm saying
that because I'm wondering if you were aware at the
time that you were putting a lot of pressure and
(18:42):
expectation on yourself to do things, not just a certain way,
but the correct right way.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, I don't think I realized how entrenched in it
that I really was at the time.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
You're saying that six weeks after the birth is when
your mom kind of went back home, so you would
a little bitter in terms of the postponing depression. How
much were you struggling emotionally in that first year or
four years.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Even it was challenging, especially that first year. We lived
about four hours away from our family, so well, I
worked full time, but three days I worked at home
with her, and she was not a napper. She would
maybe nap for like twenty minutes at a time, and
so it was very, very stressful because I just felt
(19:29):
like I couldn't do anything well. I couldn't parent well,
I couldn't work well, I couldn't wife well. Almost six
years later, thinking back on it, like maybe she wasn't
so high knees.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Maybe I just had a lot of trouble adjusting.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And it's also true that babies have different temperaments, and
so sometimes you'll see other mothers when you're a new
mother and they're like, my baby sleeps all the time,
and my baby's so calm, and it just makes you
feel like something is your fault. That probably isn't.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
That's true too.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
You said that during that time you started to think,
I can't do this again. I'm not sure that I
want to have another kid. So when did that shift
for you where you decided I would really like to
have another kid, And how did those conversations go with
your husband? Tell us more about what the plan was
between the two of you before you had your first child.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I always said I wanted four kids, and he always said,
I mean two is good.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
I think after she was about a year and.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
A half, we were back in the same city as
our family, but still kind of like, Okay, well this
is kind of a good time to start thinking about it,
because you want.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Him to be three years apart. You know that ideal?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And who was bringing that up? Was it your husband
who said let's start thinking about this? Or was it
you And did your husband ever say to you, you know,
I would be sad if we didn't try to have
another kid.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I guess we didn't have a specific conversation about it.
I think it was just more a sense of we're
just open to it, kind of if it happens, like
we're not gonna really try try, but.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
We're open to it.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So there wasn't a conversation with your husband where he said,
I know you've had a really rough time. How are
you feeling about the idea of having more?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
No, because I wanted I was like, yeah, I want more.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Even though I didn't really feel settled with one, I
felt like it was time to have to It's the
time so that they'll be close enough in age where
they can play together.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
You keep talking about the time, but again it sounds
like the conversation never happened. That this has been a
really stressful year and a half. You know, one point
you felt like you didn't think you could do this again,
And how are you feeling about it now? That conversation
between you and your husban didn't have not officially.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
The thing about the time, to me is another example
of you going by the this would be ideal. You
said three years is ideal, and it's fine as a
goal as a rough guideline, but there's a way in
which you internalize these quote unquote ideals that you really
set the expectation that it has to happen then, and
(22:25):
if it doesn't, it means that I'm not doing something
right or my body isn't doing something right. And it
sounds like you were even saying yes to trying at
that time because of the ideal rather than because it
felt like this was the right time for you.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I remember thinking, I know people who have had trouble,
and so in case I have trouble, I would rather
start earlier.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And then you got pregnant right away with that pregnancy
that you told us about.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, so I got pregnant right away.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Again, we weren't super trying, we were just open to it,
and I was like wow. I remember being really nervous,
you know, when we first found out, But then I
was excited and I was like, oh, this will be
really great and ended up kind of telling my parents
earlier than I thought because just like circumstance, and I
(23:13):
even went out and got like a big sister shirt
for our daughter and took pictures with her in it,
and I was like, Oh, this will be a cute
way to announce it. And then it was like a
couple days later that all my cramping started and everything happened.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And then there were two other losses that happened after
that one.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, so after my topic, I had a really really,
really hard time with that loss. I was probably a
month out from surgery when my brother and sister in
law announced they were pregnant. So and I'm really close
to my brother, to that brother especially, and it really
kind of sucked the air out of me because I
(23:57):
was like, Oh, now she's going to be pregnant over
things Giving and Christmas, and I was going to be
pregnant over Thanksgiving and Christmas, and oh we could have
been pregnant together and all this stuff. So that was
really hard, and that really caused like a big friction
in my relationship with my brother and sister in law.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Because I just didn't want to be around them. I
just I.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Needed space, I needed to separate. I actually started going
to lost groups after that, and it was so nice
to not be alone, but it was also hard because
I started finding out all of the ways you could
lose a child. So before I knew about this many
ways to lose a child, and now I was like, oh, wow,
it can really happen. At forty weeks, you can lose
(24:41):
a child. Everything can be fine one day and the
next day I can't be.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, that's not necessarily great information for somebody who's struggling
with anxiety exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
And then I was feeling guilty because a lot of
these groups I went to they didn't have any children,
and so then I was like, well, at least I
have one.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And so what you're doing there is you're doing the
comparative loss game, where you feel like, I don't deserve
to feel the depth of the loss that I'm feeling,
because look what happened to this person. They lost their
baby thirty eight weeks and for me it was seven weeks.
(25:19):
Or I already have a child and they don't have
a child, so my loss isn't as intense as their loss.
And people do that all the time, and I think
that ties into this what guy was talking about earlier
about on the one hand, you perceive everything that goes
wrong as a personal failure of yours, and on the
(25:39):
other hand, you feel like, oh, but you know, I
really have it good, so I can't really experience this
loss and I need to kind of just buck up
and be happy for my brother when he announces the pregnancy.
Did your brother know what you had been through?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And this is what made it even harder. And my
brother is super open things, and so he was even
open with me when I was going through it to
say like, oh, well, we want another one, but it's
going to be a while. It's definitely going to be
a while until we have another one. So in my mind,
(26:17):
I was like, okay, good, I'm not going to have
to deal with any pregnant family members.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
For a while. And also I shared.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
With him about how hard it was, and he goes, well,
a lot of people have miscarriages. It's pretty common, and
so it felt very dismissed and very invalidated. And then
a week later or not probably not a week later,
but a couple of weeks later is when he shared
(26:44):
that they were pregnant and then couldn't understand why, you know,
I needed more than a day to process it and
was very hurt about the fact that I didn't want
to see them, and so it just made it hard.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And has that relationship been repaired since then.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
It has made very helpful by the fact that his
oldest daughter and my daughter are year apart and they're
like best friends, and so it sort of forced me
to be like, well, I want my daughter to see
her cousin and have that relationship. And then also once
my nephew was born, it was easier to be around
(27:23):
him and to really just love and adore him and
say it's not his fault, it's not you know, he's
a beautiful gift and he's here and it's you know,
a wonderful addition to our family. And you know, they
recently announced that they're pregnant with their thirds, so and
here I am still barren as ever, so I'm like, wow,
they've had three children and I just have one time.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
I'm out, I've just had one.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
That sounds so painful and you're sort of laughing through it.
But the way that you talk about it is, well,
I'm here, i am, I'm barren, as if it's your
fault or you have any control over this. Again going
back to that perception as this being a personal failure
of yours, and I think that just adds to the pain.
(28:10):
The pain is going to be there, but when you
frame it that way, I think you're layering more pain
on top of the already existing pain. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Part of what why I wrote to you guys, because
it's like, I don't even know how to process it
all well.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
In part because it's been such a series of trauma
and loss, the birth being really difficult, the postpartum depression,
struggling to get help but really not finding the help
that you needed, and then struggling for so long afterwards
even and then you have that other pregnancy, the ectomic pregnancy,
and all the trauma of that and the incredible pain
(28:49):
that you were in, and that was one thing after
the other, and then getting that text when you were
in the ear, and then in any event, it sounds
like it's been quite relentless, and so in part it's
hard to make sense of things when you're still in them.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And the other thing about this kind of loss is
that you have to face it every day in the
sense of you walk out onto the street and there
are babies and there are pregnant women, and you're walking
down the aisles of Target, and you think you're just
going for the things that you need but oop, there's
the diaper aisle and look at these women there, and
(29:27):
you want to where maybe you do burst into tears
in public and nobody knows this internal struggle that you're experiencing.
And I don't know if people at work know what's
going on with you, if other friends know what's going
on with you, if it's just your family. But often
people don't realize that even though you are trying to
(29:49):
manage and get through your days, that reminders of this
pop up all the time. And ad will pop up
on your computer for baby products. Guy use the word relentless,
and I think think it is relentless. And there's that
the silence of it because a lot of people don't know.
It's not visible what you're going through. And then there's
the again, the ambiguous grief of like maybe this month,
(30:12):
oh no, not this month, it didn't happen, will it
ever happen? So am I grieving that I'm never going
to have a second child? Or am I grieving the
loss that's right in front of me right now that
this this month, I'm not having a second child.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Yeah, I mean all those things we had to wait
a while.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
After I had to wait like at least six months
after my surgery, and then I was able to get
pregnant again and was happy about it.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
But next day I started bleeding.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Then we have to do this you know, procedure to
suck out the tissue, and so not even that was
like a simple process. It was like, okay, is this
my life? But I was like I can't. This can't
happen more than twice.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
And so.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
It was maybe not even six weeks later that I
found out I was pregnant again, and so I was
very excited and like I felt really confident this time.
And I actually started getting like nauseous the next week
and really really tired and just really had a lot
of symptoms of pregnancy, and went to get my blood
(31:21):
work done and they just said, well, it's kind of uncertain,
why don't you come back, And it was scheduled for
New Year's Eve. So it was really hard because I
had to go through Christmas and everything like not telling anybody,
And so we went for the ultrasound on New Year's
Eve and they just said I'm sorry, you know, the
(31:44):
baby step growing, and you know, I was devastated and
I cried and my husband got like he looked like
he was really upset, and I was like, oh my gosh,
he's finally showing emotion.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
The doctor left the room or whatever, but he.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Literally said to me, you have one at home, right
and I said yes, and he goes, you'll have three
kids before you know it, and I was like, what,
this is so invalidating and so upsetting, And then you know,
they go, you can let yourself out the back door
because nobody wants a crying person to walk through the
waiting room, and so you literally have to go out
(32:23):
the back door to the parking garage. And so it
just felt very like this is not happening again, Like
how am I going.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
To get through this?
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Like this feels absolutely impossible? How am I going to
even try again? Because how could I ever go through
this again? And that also just absolutely broke me.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So you got this devastating news, then you know you
have to go through a devastating medical procedure which can't
be even more painful emotionally because of it, and you're thinking,
I can't I can't go through this again. I'm not
sure how I'm getting through it this time. Are you
able to verbalize that to your husband? Was he able
to be there for you and understand the depths of
your despair at that moment.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
In some ways, yes, I mean he he said, I'm sad.
You know I wanted this baby, but like this is
gonna sound bad, but I was just like, why why
doesn't this hurt you more?
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Why isn't this more painful for you?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
What are the discussions like between the two of you
now about what your options are?
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Well, you know, we just talked about this the other
day because I said, do we even want a second one?
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Because I feel like.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I'm pushing harder than you are. He said, you are
pushing harder, but I do want another one.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Do you know if he has any fears about what
it might be like to try again given what you
both have been through.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
I should ask him that is there a plan between
the two of you, like, if we keep trying after
this many months, we are willing to try other measures
or other ideas, or we're going to say we're going
to kind of close the book on this if it
(34:14):
doesn't happen after a certain amount of time.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
And are you two on the same page, Because often
what happens is one person feels like I'm willing to
do this, and the other person feels like I've had enough.
Where are the two of you? Do you even know?
Speaker 4 (34:29):
I don't know? And this is so sad for me,
Like you don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Where you are, or you don't know where he is,
or you don't know both both.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I don't know how to talk to him about it
because what we've talked about has just sort of been like, well,
let's just try this now and see if it works.
Like at what point do I just say like one
is enough and like I hate saying that because my
(35:02):
daughter is enough, and so.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
I struggle with this.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It can be.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Both and that your daughter is enough and you want
a second child.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I understand you have these discussions with your husband occasionally,
certainly when stuff happens. How much is it in the
air between you in the day to day, how much
is it in your head in the day to day
versus his, and how much is it hovering between you
right now?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
I would say it's a huge part of where I'm at.
I take like fifteen supplements a day at this point,
and he's taking supplements and I'm like, did you take
your supplements?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
And then I.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Feel bad about that, And sometimes I'm like, well, can
you just drink less?
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Like so that, like do you care about this?
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Like what does he say when you ask him do
you care about this? And when you feel like you
have to be the person and who reminds him to
do these things that might help increase your chances of
having a child.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
He gets mad, like, of course I do, of course
I care.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
It's so hard for him.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
It sounds like it's a little bit more sporadic. He
might be taking supplements every morning, but he's not living
it every minute, perhaps the way you are. Does he
talk to you about that about whether is he concerned
that you're too much in it too much of the time?
Is he expressing your concern about you being able to
(36:33):
be fully present in the lives that you have.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, Like I think he wishes I could just let
go and just not be so anxious about things.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
What is the state of the couplehood? And how are
you doing together as a married couple with a young daughter.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Yeah, I feel like we're doing good.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
But even like you just start in a new job
that's like really stressful, and so the other day I
was like, oh, do you just feel overwhelmed, and he goes, no,
I don't get overwhelmed. I'm just figuring it out, and
I'm like, I'm always overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I don't know, but that right there might be in
a microcosm the way that the two of you are
dealing with this pregnancy issue, that he does feel things.
He does have anxiety or sadness or with times he
might have been devastated, but the way that he manages
(37:37):
those feelings is different from the way that you do.
And it doesn't mean one is better than the other.
It just means that sometimes couples can feel like, well,
why aren't you feeling anything about this? And he might
be feeling a lot about it, but what he does
with those feelings is a little bit different, and so
you don't see it in the same way.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, Like, how do I get him to acknowledge his feelings?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I think from what you're describing, what he does is
he can compartmentalize. What that means is that what you
put aside is not the knowledge of what happened, but
the emotion attached to it. You can detach from that feeling,
have the awareness, but really kind of segment the feeling
away to a certain extent, And I think that you
(38:19):
chose him perhaps for this reason, because you are somebody
who deals with a lot of anxiety, But you chose
somebody rocks onlid. You chose somebody who has these emotions
but manages them in a way that he's like steady
Eddy all the time. And you are somebody who tends
to be anxious, And so it's actually really useful to
be with someone who's very steady, because then it doesn't
(38:42):
compound the anxiety. When two people get anxious at the
same time, they can really feed into one another. I
do want to ask you, though, are you aware of
the severity of the anxiety that you have? Are you
treating it still?
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I am still taking that as for it, but I
think it's gotten worse. I've had a few people say like, oh,
you need to talk to somebody about, you know, your
struggles and things like that. One of the big things
I'm struggling with is.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Just managing.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Like I almost just wish I could be like just oh,
I'm just gonna have one and then just be done
so that I don't have to, like, you know, worry
about all this stuff and have it be so consuming.
But like I can't get it out of my mind
that like I don't necessarily feel like our families complete,
and I do, there is like hope there that maybe
(39:44):
maybe it's not. But then I also know that if
I do get that positive pregnancy test, but that's only
the beginning, and then like there's nine months of different anxiety.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I think what you're talking about is that you're in
this situation where you feel like you have so little
control not only of whether you get pregnant, or whether
the pregnancy is viable, or whether the pregnancy results in
a healthy baby, but also in terms of what happens
when you wake up in the morning, and what's going
to pop up on your screen, and what you're going
(40:19):
to see on Facebook, and who's going to announce a
new pregnancy. So all of that feels very unpredictable and
out of your control. But I think there are certain
things that you do have control over. Do I want
to know if someone's pregnant, or do I want to
know later on whether they're farther along, or maybe an
email would be better for me because I don't want
(40:40):
to have to respond in that moment. It's excruciating to
have to respond in that moment. It's like I hear
this from single people a lot, where they say, you know,
my friend called me and she told me she got engaged,
and I was supposed to be so happy. And it
was the third person that month who told me they
were engaged the same thing. And so maybe the parts
that you have control over are the parts that I
(41:01):
think are important to focus on. How do I deal
with going out in the world and the inevitable injuries
that I'm going to experience as I go through my day.
What parts of that might I ask something from people
around me to help me through this. And so before
we get to the advice, we just had one last
(41:22):
thing we wanted to ask about, which is tell us
a little bit about your daughter and what her experience
of all of this is.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
I am so grateful that she was so young when
I had my first loss and I was trying to
process it so much. But I mean, I haven't been shy,
like you know, I believe that my losses are angels
and that they're you know, they're in heaven. And so
she's asked about siblings before, and I've told her, oh,
(41:51):
you have brothers and sisters in heaven. So in the fall,
we lost our first pets, our first pets that we
had together, and she was kind of like mine before
we got married, and so it is very very hard
on all of us, but my husband especially was like
(42:14):
outwardly crying for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
And one of my.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
First thoughts was, how dare you get this upset about
our cat when you didn't even cry this much about
our children. And then I felt bad for a feeling
like that and was kind of just like, well, at
least it feels nice not to grieve alone.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Sometimes in couples, when one of them sees the other
one is really really struggling, they really button up their
emotions because it's difficult for two people to go to
pieces at the same time. And it's possible that with
the cat, he saw that you were managing it better,
and therefore he allowed himself to access his feelings a
(42:58):
little bit more, and his concern for you. In the
other cases of losing the pregnancies, his concern for you
didn't allow him to access his own feelings. So it
wasn't a statement about what he was grieving more. It
was a statement about where he felt he had room
(43:18):
to access those feelings.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And it's also possible that because he felt like he
had permission to grieve, that he wasn't just grieving the cat,
that it was complicated, and that he was grieving the
cat and he was grieving all the other losses that
he had held inside for all this time. But you
(43:41):
don't know because the two of you haven't really talked
about it. So, Diane, you've been through a lot and
it has touched everyone in the family. And we do
have some advice that we'd like you to try this week.
And the first part is that something that really feeds
(44:03):
anxiety is a sense of lack of control. And there's
a lot that we don't have control over in life,
but there are some things that we do. And one
of the ways that we think you might feel like
you have a little more control in this situation is
to have a plan that you and your husband agree upon.
(44:24):
And so we'd like you to sit down with your
husband and have a real direct conversation about what is
our plan given where we are now, and very specifically,
are we willing to try one round of IVF, are
we willing to try none? Are we willing to try too?
(44:47):
What would be our timetable on that. How long are
we going to continue the acupuncture and the supplements. Are
we going to consider adoption or a surrogate or a donor,
are we going to keep trying naturally? And for how long?
So that you're not living in the maybe and in
(45:07):
the well, we'll just kind of leave it up to
something out there, but that we're taking action with an
agreed upon plan and then you know, we'll see what happens.
We don't have control over that, but we do have
control over the plan, and that's something you can come
up with together in terms of what you're both comfortable
with where you're both at emotionally, physically, fatigue wise at
(45:32):
this point.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
How do you recommend having him think about it? Because
I feel like he's just going to say we'll figure it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Out, and you'll say, actually, as you know, I struggle
with anxiety, Dave, and having this uncertainty is probably not
best for me. And as much as I would like
to just figure it out and take it step by step,
I think it would be better for both of us
if we had an idea that had parameters so we
have a sense, so we're not spending the next five
(46:03):
ten years in this still with uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
So we want you to first have that conversation with
your husband, and then we want you to have one
more conversation with him, and it's really an opener to
getting the two of you to be able to start
talking on a deeper level about what you've both been
through so that it doesn't bleed into the future when
(46:27):
you don't deal with it. And we want you to
go back to the cat dying, and we want you
to tell Dave that, even though at the time you
had a certain reaction to it, that you've really reflected
on that and that you think it's really beautiful that
he was able to express his grief and loss over
(46:50):
the cat and it made you feel so much closer
to him to see him really be able to express
his grief, and that you have a suspicion that maybe
he's been holding some of his grief back around the
pregnancy losses because your grief has been so big, and
(47:12):
that you want to let him know that you would
like to open that door and that you are able
to handle whatever he's feeling, whatever grief he's experiencing, so
that it doesn't become a dynamic between you where you're
the one who gets to express grief and he has
to be the steady eddie. That you can be the
(47:33):
steady eddie at times, and he's the one who's kind
of falling apart, and you want to let him know
that you can be that person for him, and that
you realize that when you saw him grieving over the cat,
you were so moved by it. It made you feel
so much more contained seeing that he was experiencing something
(47:54):
and you could be there for him.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
We have two quick pieces of advice. One about your daughter.
We think that the conversations that you've been having with
her around the extra sibling, they've been a little painful
for you, obviously, but we think they've been a little
heavy for her because she's just saying, hey, this would
be fun another baby brother or sister, kind of like
(48:19):
having a puppy. It's like just fun. They don't realize
that's a lot of work, that puppy and that little
baby brother and sister. So we'd like to suggest that
when she brings it up again, and she probably will,
that you say to her, you know what, we don't
know if we're going to have another baby, but you
know what, we do know that our family is great
(48:42):
as it is. And you know what, we do know
that we love each other very much, the three of
us already. So maybe we'll get an extra member of
the family, maybe we won't, but we can be so
happy just the three of us. That's the most important part.
And I see that you're tearing up when I say that, Yeah,
(49:05):
can you tell me what you're feeling?
Speaker 6 (49:10):
Yeah, because we are a beautiful family, and she's so
important to us and brings us so much joy, and
I just want her to always know that she's enough.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Great. We also think if she has friends who don't
have siblings, them's some good playdates to arrange, perhaps so
she can see that that's something that's not uncommon.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
It's almost like the way that when you walk out
into the world you see pregnant women and other women
with babies. I think that the way that it's been
framed in your family, that's what she sees when she
goes out. And you said, you kept correcting yourself. You
said all of her friends have Oh, well, I mean
most of her friends have siblings. So there are other
(49:57):
families that have one child, and it would be helpful,
I think for her to have some play dates with them,
not that you won't comment on it. You're not going
to say, look, they only have one child. You're just
going to expose her to different kinds of family so
that she understands that their families come in all shapes
and sizes.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
The last piece of advice is that we would like
you to get a little bit more informed about anxiety.
I think you know quite a bit, but I think
there's more for you to know because it's something that
you're dealing with quite significantly, and I think that you
need to read something a book such as The Anxiety
(50:39):
Toolkit by doctor Alice Boyce, which is a very practical
toolkit to deal with anxiety. It explains what goes on,
but it gives you some tools and strategies. And we'd
like you to find two tools or techniques that you
can tell us about using and that you start to
implement in your life. Does that sound okay?
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
I was diagnosed with anxiety when I was in eighth grade,
so I feel like I've been learning about it forever.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
But I think just.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
As it as like I evolve, so does it, so
I probably just need new new ways of coping with
like the new things I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
It was a pleasure talking to you, and you know
you've you've been through a lot, and we both really
really pushed the best for you.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time and
it was great. It's see your faces too. I wish
I could talk to you every week.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
I'm actually quite hopeful that Dane will be able to
follow through on all the tasks we gave her. I'm
trying to think if we've ever given somebody that many tasks.
Even though some of them were small, it was quite
a it's quite a bit that we've given her to
do right her.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
We gave her three, but the first one had a
two parter.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Right, so that was a lot to do. But I
have a lot of faith in her. I think she's
really eager to change her situation, at least emotionally, given
how she's really been through so much already.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, And I think the important point is that we're
not doing what I think a lot of people do,
which is telling her not to feel what she's feeling.
We're saying, we want to help you cope with what you're.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Feeling, and you want to help the two of you
as a couple who've been through this together cope with
what you're feeling and as a family, indeed with her
daughter as well.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.
We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
So we heard from Diane and we had given her
a lot of homework. I'm curious to see how that went.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Hi, Lori and Guy, it's Diane. I just wanted to
update you about my week. It was a busy week
with lots to do, but I, you know, told my
husband that I wanted to have these conversations about these
specific things, and we sat down and were able to
just really talk openly and honestly about how we were
(53:21):
feeling about everything. I apologized for really not having a
conversation sooner about wanting to be very intentional about trying again.
And you know, before we started doing the supplements and
the acupuncture, that was something I had sort of just
taken on by myself, and that was honestly, obviously a conversation.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
We really needed to have together.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
And then we kind of came up with a plan
going forward of you know, how long we were going
to try everything and what the next steps were. We
talked about being open to adoption and and you know,
research different options and talk to different agencies and things
like that.
Speaker 4 (54:06):
So that was exciting.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
I'm very hopeful going forward, and it really helped us
establish a great path forward for communications like this.
Speaker 4 (54:18):
So I just kind of.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Rolled the second conversation up into that first one, and
we talked about, you know, our previous losses and everything
like that. So it was really nice to really talk
about that now that we're kind of more removed from it,
and you know, talk about our feelings about that. And
then I also talked to our daughter and and emphasized
(54:45):
again that we are a complete family, just the three
of us, and she just said, I know, but I
really want a little brother. So I think she's not
quite quite there yet either, but I'm just going to
keep telling her that, you know, maybe one day she'll
have a little brother or sister, and maybe she won't,
(55:06):
but no matter what, we're just so grateful that.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
We have her.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
I also ordered the Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boys that
guy recommended, and I'm about twenty pages in even this
soon in the book, it's already really opened my eyes
to how much anxiety permeates my life. I'm really glad
that you guys opened my eyes back up to making
(55:32):
that front and center, because it is front and center,
and now I'm able to kind.
Speaker 4 (55:38):
Of address that.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
So just sort of looking ahead at the chapters on
paralyzing perfectionism and rumination, I know that just being aware
of the fact that I'm doing it, that I'm spending
time ruminating, and that I'm kind of getting in my
own way, I think is gonna really help me move forward.
(56:01):
And I haven't tried anything specifically since I just kind
of got started, but I'm very excited about really getting
into it and trying these strategies. And I also got
a few recommendations for therapists when I went to see
my acupuncturists today, so excited to reach out to them
and hopefully continue this weekly. So thank you so much.
(56:27):
You guys made such a big difference on many parts
of my life, and I'm very hopeful going forward.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
So sometimes when there's a big issue going on, it
tends to mask the other things that really need to
be addressed. And what was so great about what Diane
did this week was she really got in there and said,
I need to talk about the communication with my husband,
and she hadn't really dealt with her anxiety that had
(57:02):
been a lifelong issue with her. They were so focused
on having a baby that they didn't realize that there
were other things that also needed to be addressed.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
And what I loved was that when she told us
about telling her daughter, hey, we're a complete family. You
might have a little brother or sister, or you might not,
and her daughter was saying, yeah, I know, but I
really want a little brother. That was the kind of
thing that would have made her very upset before. And
she said it with a laugh, a smile in her voice, like, oh,
(57:35):
you know, five year olds they just wanted the little sibling.
There was already some emotional distance that she had from
that issue. And I think that when you tackle things
and you really get into the feelings and you really
talk about them in a complete way, it actually eases
the feelings you have about things, rather than exacerbates them.
(57:58):
And I'm so glad that that's happened.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Yea, it really does. And I'm so glad that she
and her husband have begun to talk about the loss
and the roller coaster that they've been on and the
grief and how it affects them individually. I don't think
that they've been able to really share their feelings with
each other, and they've kind of tiptoed around that, And
so I think this is going to be really helpful
(58:21):
as they continue on whatever path, and that they have
a path now that they're starting to say, wait, what
is the plan here? So that we aren't in limbo forever?
Speaker 2 (58:30):
And what makes that plan work is that they're making
it together.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out a year later.
Speaker 7 (58:45):
It's made me realize how hard I am on myself,
and I remember Laurie and Guys saying something about me
not feeling like I was inherently lovable as I am,
and I'm slowly beginning to realize that I don't need to.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Perform to be loved.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
You can also find us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb
dot com and you can follow me on Twitter at
(59:19):
lorigottlib one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author, and.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
I'm at Guywinch dot com and on Twitter and Instagram
at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to
discuss with us, we go smooth. Email us at Lorianguy
at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Liften. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast Fairygodmother Katie Kuric. We can't
wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 2 (59:55):
Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 6 (01:00:00):
If the Cop
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
This week, our fellow traveler struggles with the heartbreak of
infertility and pregnancy loss.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I had a really, really, really hard time without loss.
I was probably a month out from surgery when my
brother and sister in law announced they were pregnant. It
really kind of sucks the air out of me because
I was like, Oh, now she's going to be pregnant,
and oh, we could have been pregnant together. And that
really caused like a big friction in my relationship with
(00:58):
my brother and sister law because I just didn't want
to be around them.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
First.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:25):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partwor
and full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.
In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed
for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Lourie, Hey guy,
So what are we going to talk about today?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We're going to talk about pregnancy loss and here's the
letter we got. Dear therapists. I've been struggling with the
pain of pregnancy loss and infertility for almost four years now.
We were blessed with our first child five and a
half years ago and had no trouble getting pregnant with her,
had he wealth the pregnancy and birth. Since then, I've
(02:03):
had an ectopic pregnancy resulting in losing a fallopian tube,
a chemical pregnancy, and a miscarriage. All losses were early,
but so painful. It's been two years since our last loss,
and I haven't even been able to get pregnant, so
now we're dealing with infertility. In the meantime, our daughter
has asked so many times about siblings, and I know
(02:23):
she would be a great big sister. Almost all of
her friends have siblings. I struggle so much being surrounded
by pregnant women everywhere, it feels like, and especially in
this world of social media, every holiday means another round
of pregnancy announcements. Right now, both of my sister and
laws are pregnant, one with her fifth child and one
with her third, and here I am as barren as ever.
(02:47):
We've caught plastic mostly out of our kitchen. I've met
with a nutritionist, taken supplements, and I'm even doing acupuncture.
And so someone else getting pregnant without all that feels
especially defeating. I'm tired of everyone else's prest affecting me
so much. I was a person who loved pregnancy announcements
before this. I don't want to keep saying, well, I'm
happy for them, but sad for me. It feels so selfish.
(03:10):
It also doesn't help that I constantly struggle with people
automatically assuming pregnancy equals a baby in nine months, So
much can happen. I've met women who've lost babies at
every stage of pregnancy. I'm just really tired, tired of
trying to live in the present and also trying to
have hope for a different future. I try to be
happy with where I'm at. Some days I think I'm there,
(03:31):
other days I'm not, And some moments I just crumble.
Please help, I feel so lost. Diane.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, what Diane is describing is grief, and it's a
really complicated kind of grief that she's dealing with. It's
sort of an ambiguous grief because it's not like someone
dies and there's the grieving and people gather around and
they're there to comfort you. It's often a silent loss,
(04:02):
like with the loss of the pregnancies. It's ambiguous grief
because you don't know when or if this thing is
going to happen, so you're always every month that you
get that pregnancy test, you're dealing with another loss and
then this question of what am I going to lose
going forward. So I can understand why she's struggling so
much with this, and I.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Think what makes it more difficult is that she's right
when you lose pregnancies the way she's lost them. There
are a lot of people who shrug it off, who
don't take it seriously. She didn't make the announcements probably,
so a lot of people probably don't even know that
those things happened. And yet she's walking around with one
loss after another after another, feeling absolutely bereft, but not
(04:45):
able to get perhaps the social support, not able to
really even explain to people why it's so painful because
some people will get it, some people won't, and having
the constant, constant reminders around her, which is exactly what's
soa painful in these cases, that there's pregnancy all around,
especially when you're queued into looking for it, and so
(05:06):
just seeing it everywhere and not being able to complete
it is just excruciating for her.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And then on top of that, she feels like a
bad person for feeling what are very normal reactions to
the kind of loss that she's experiencing. So let's go
talk to her and see what we can do to help.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after
a quick break.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I'm Guy Wench And this is Deotherapists. So, Diane, welcome
to the show.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Thank you, Hi, Diane. Hi.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
We'd like to hear a little bit of the backstory.
Tell us a little bit about this journey that you've
been on and how you're feeling about it right now.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, So about five and a half years ago, I
had my first daughter, and I had a really normal pregnancy.
It was very easy to get pregnant, and I had
had a rough delivery, but still pretty good and kind
of by any standard, and then really struggled hard with
(06:21):
postpartum depression. I had a lot of a lot of
trouble adjusting to life as a new mom, like just
being needed one hundred percent of the time. I was
trying to breastfeed and pump and wasn't sleeping a lot,
and so I had a really really rough transition. I
(06:42):
always kind of knew I wanted multiple kids, but there
was a while after that I was just like, I
can't even imagine having more than one. I just you know,
needed to get through that period of time. And then
even the early kind of toddler years are pretty hard.
But when my daughter was about too you know, we
were pretty open to trying for the next one and
(07:06):
got pregnant fairly easily again and was really excited. But
then I ended up going to the er like a
day or two later because I was just in so
much pain, and I was in there and they did
an a like an early kind of ultrasound, and I
should have been about I think it was like seven
(07:28):
weeks or something, and whatever they were supposed to kind
of see, they didn't see, and so then they were.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Like, could be a topic, it could be a miscarriage.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It could just be that you're like earlier than you
think and everything will be okay in a couple weeks.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
So it's very unsettling.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
I actually remember being at the hospital and my husband
getting a text from his best friend and they said,
we just found out we're having a boy today, and
I was like, wow, that could not be worse time,
Like I'm happy for them, but I'm finding out that
I could potentially be losing this child. So it was
very up and down, very stressful.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
This was going on over the course of a few
weeks where you didn't know if the pregnancy was viable.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It was really kind of like a one to two
week period, and I was just in a lot of pain.
And they kept saying, well, if it gets to the
point where it's so extreme you you have to be
doubled over, then go to the er because then it's
you know, life threatening.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
So it was just like.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Really stressful because I kept thinking, Okay, well I'm in
a lot of pain, but does this mean.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Is it like life threatening? Is this is this bad
enough to go to the er?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
So once they determined that it was ec topic, they
gave me this medicine to help and then you know
it would be good, we won't have to do surgery.
And so I did that and was just still in
so much pain, and the doctor was just like really
(09:01):
confused because ninety percent chances should have worked, and was
ultimately like I don't want I want to do surgery
if I don't have to, because then there's always possibility
of having to remove a tube if you, you know,
do surgery.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
So after just being in a lot of pain and
kind of.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
The emotional effects of everything and having a two year
old at this point, so trying to you know, balance
just the daily struggles of motherhood as is I, we
just like ended up saying let's just do the surgery.
And I remember the first thing I asked when I
woke up, was did you save the tube? And they said, no,
(09:39):
we had to take your right tu about and so
I was just like, and the doctor had said, that
doesn't half your chance of getting pregnant, it reduces it
by like, I don't know, thirty to forty percent or something.
So after my surgery and when I was finally just
like not in so much physical pain, I really felt
(10:03):
started feeling the emotional pain of losing this pregnancy, of
losing this child. And I had a very very hard
time with it.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
During this time that you were going through all of this,
What was going on between you and your husband? How
were you both dealing with it?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
He was very supportive in just kind of being there
with me. For me, We're lucky that we lived near family,
so we had a lot of times that like my
parents would just take our daughter. So he was able
to be there with me for the surgery and everything.
He's just not a talker. He's not a sharer of feelings,
(10:47):
so I don't think he always necessarily knows how to
express himself. Even though he was really there physically and
provided a lot of that physical support and you know,
let me cry on him kind of emotionally and things
like that. It did still feel very isolating.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
When you lost the pregnancy and then found out that
you lost the Filippian tube as well. Did he ever
share with you anything about how he felt about what
was going on?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
I mean I remember asking him like, are you sad
about this?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
You know?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
And he was like, yeah, I'm sad, Like he was
sad that I was so sad. So he always said,
I am sad to see you so sad, and I'm
sad that this is, you know, causing you so much
pain physically and emotionally, having it like happen in your body.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
It's very very personal.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
And I felt like I did something to fail as child,
Like I did something to fail the pregnancy.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I caused it.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Why couldn't my body sustain it?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Can we go back from it? I just want to
ask you about the postpartum depression. May I ask if
you were treated for it, how long you had it,
how your husband was doing that?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah? I was treated for it.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It was very difficult for me to find help, which
is very frustrating. I went very fast into a very
dark place and I ended up in the er. And
they wanted to admit me, and I said, well, I
really want to breastfeed my child. I really want to
(12:25):
be with my child, and they were like, you can't be.
And I didn't end up going in at that point,
and then we tried to call like a woman's center
that was kind of nearby, like a woman's mental health center.
They said like, are you a harm to yourself, to
(12:45):
your child or somebody else?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
And I said no, and they said, well you don't qualify.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
And I was like, I can't be alone with my child.
I can't like think straight, like I have these bad thoughts,
but I'm not going to do anything. And then I
try to go to my ob and I had already
been on medicine for like anxiety prior to pregnancy, and
so I was on that medicine and so the obee said, well,
(13:11):
I can't prescribe anything else because that's compounding and I'm
not qualified. And you guys are in the profession, so
you know this. But you try to call a psychiatrists
and they're like, we can see you in six to
eight weeks, and you're like, no, I need something now,
I need something today. I basically ended up finally at
(13:32):
my primary care physician, and they did prescribe me well
beutrined to go with my I think I was so
loved and thankfully that was finally the like combination that worked.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
But it was a very very long few weeks.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
My mom was only supposed to we lived like four
hours away from our parents at this time, so she
was gonna stay for like a week after the baby
was born to help, and she was there almost six
weeks because I was just like in such a bad place,
and my husband was absolutely amazing, just like caring for us,
(14:12):
for all of us.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
You said, Diane, that you had a traumatic birth, and
you kind of skipped over that. Sometimes people experience postpartum
depression because they have a history of depression. Sounds like
you have a history of anxiety. Sometimes that can be
compounded by having a traumatic birth, and then when it
turns out okay, often people ignore that. They say, oh,
(14:36):
look you got a healthy baby and now everything's fine
and congratulations and it's amazing, and you're like, I'm not
feeling amazing. I'm overwhelmed. I just had a traumatic birth.
I'm adjusting to this new role. Were you able to
talk with anybody about the traumatic birth and the impact
that it had on you or did people just kind
(14:56):
of ignore that and you went home and everyone acted
like everything was great.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, I guess I didn't really have a chance to
process it at all. I almost feel bad saying it
was traumatic, because it was. It was traumatic for me,
I guess, but like in the grand scheme of berths,
it was it was not traumatic if.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You were not minimizing it. Can you tell us what
was traumatic about it for you?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
It was so long.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
It was the most mentally challenging thing I've ever had
to do. I was very set on doing an all
natural birth, and I had like digging classes and done
all this stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
And it was basically like.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Three days of on and off labor, like hard enough
labor that I'd have to get done on the floor
and you know, breathe through it. Like at the end
of the day, I was able to have a natural birth,
but like I thought, I was dying. I wanted to
go to sleep. I at one point was like, just
cut this baby out of me. Like I was just
(15:59):
absolute lutely exhausted. By the time she was finally born,
I had no energy left in me, and so I
just kept saying like I just want her to be
born so I can sleep, and like, that's the biggest
joke of all, because when you have a newborn, you
don't sleep.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
You wanted her to be born so that someone could
then take care of you because you've just been through
all of this, and instead it was, oh, I have
to take care of this baby.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And again, like I think a lot of it was
pressure I put on myself, Like I was so intent
on I'm going to exclusively breastfeed until she's four years old,
and you know, twenty four hours later in the hospital,
she's screaming and crying and she's not getting food, and
the nurses like you need to give her formula and
I'm crying and my husband's like, just give her the bottle,
(16:50):
you know. And so I was putting all this pressure
on myself, like now I'm a horrible mother because this
class I took told me, and now I'm giving her
poison and all this stuff. And so just started out
in this like whirlwind.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
But then it is hard because I will say that
I also felt.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Very empowered, like the fact that I was able to
have her all naturally and the fact that I was
able to complete that process so it felt empowering, but
then it was just also so overwhelming, and the fact
that somebody handed me a child and was like, now
you need to make every decision for them. And I
remember saying to my friend like, can somebody give me
(17:29):
a manual? I will follow it. I will do exactly
what they say. I will feed her this much, I
will do this. But trying to figure it all out
myself is very overwhelming.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So Dave was very supportive of me again, but I
think just didn't understand why I was holding on so
tightly to these things. Like he was sort of like,
if it's so hard for her to eat, it's really
okay if we just give her formula.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
He didn't understand what it represented for you, because there's
so much conflicting information out there, and new mothers are
told all kinds of things in very absolute terms. This
is toxic, this is poison, this will hurt your baby,
this will hurt their development. And so I think that
maybe he didn't understand that giving her formula represented something
(18:15):
for you, whether it was accurate or not correct.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Yeah, that's a good assessment.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
There's this concept in psychology called good enough parenting or
good enough mothering, and the idea of the concept is
that it's impossible to be a perfect parent. Really the
bar is can it be good enough? And I'm saying
that because I'm wondering if you were aware at the
time that you were putting a lot of pressure and
(18:42):
expectation on yourself to do things, not just a certain way,
but the correct right way.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, I don't think I realized how entrenched in it
that I really was at the time.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
You're saying that six weeks after the birth is when
your mom kind of went back home, so you would
a little bitter in terms of the postponing depression. How
much were you struggling emotionally in that first year or
four years.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Even it was challenging, especially that first year. We lived
about four hours away from our family, so well, I
worked full time, but three days I worked at home
with her, and she was not a napper. She would
maybe nap for like twenty minutes at a time, and
so it was very, very stressful because I just felt
(19:29):
like I couldn't do anything well. I couldn't parent well,
I couldn't work well, I couldn't wife well. Almost six
years later, thinking back on it, like maybe she wasn't
so high knees.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Maybe I just had a lot of trouble adjusting.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And it's also true that babies have different temperaments, and
so sometimes you'll see other mothers when you're a new
mother and they're like, my baby sleeps all the time,
and my baby's so calm, and it just makes you
feel like something is your fault. That probably isn't.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
That's true too.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
You said that during that time you started to think,
I can't do this again. I'm not sure that I
want to have another kid. So when did that shift
for you where you decided I would really like to
have another kid, And how did those conversations go with
your husband? Tell us more about what the plan was
between the two of you before you had your first child.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I always said I wanted four kids, and he always said,
I mean two is good.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
I think after she was about a year and.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
A half, we were back in the same city as
our family, but still kind of like, Okay, well this
is kind of a good time to start thinking about it,
because you want.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Him to be three years apart. You know that ideal?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And who was bringing that up? Was it your husband
who said let's start thinking about this? Or was it
you And did your husband ever say to you, you know,
I would be sad if we didn't try to have
another kid.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I guess we didn't have a specific conversation about it.
I think it was just more a sense of we're
just open to it, kind of if it happens, like
we're not gonna really try try, but.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
We're open to it.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So there wasn't a conversation with your husband where he said,
I know you've had a really rough time. How are
you feeling about the idea of having more?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
No, because I wanted I was like, yeah, I want more.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Even though I didn't really feel settled with one, I
felt like it was time to have to It's the
time so that they'll be close enough in age where
they can play together.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
You keep talking about the time, but again it sounds
like the conversation never happened. That this has been a
really stressful year and a half. You know, one point
you felt like you didn't think you could do this again,
And how are you feeling about it now? That conversation
between you and your husban didn't have not officially.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
The thing about the time, to me is another example
of you going by the this would be ideal. You
said three years is ideal, and it's fine as a
goal as a rough guideline, but there's a way in
which you internalize these quote unquote ideals that you really
set the expectation that it has to happen then, and
(22:25):
if it doesn't, it means that I'm not doing something
right or my body isn't doing something right. And it
sounds like you were even saying yes to trying at
that time because of the ideal rather than because it
felt like this was the right time for you.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I remember thinking, I know people who have had trouble,
and so in case I have trouble, I would rather
start earlier.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And then you got pregnant right away with that pregnancy
that you told us about.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, so I got pregnant right away.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Again, we weren't super trying, we were just open to it,
and I was like wow. I remember being really nervous,
you know, when we first found out, But then I
was excited and I was like, oh, this will be
really great and ended up kind of telling my parents
earlier than I thought because just like circumstance, and I
(23:13):
even went out and got like a big sister shirt
for our daughter and took pictures with her in it,
and I was like, Oh, this will be a cute
way to announce it. And then it was like a
couple days later that all my cramping started and everything happened.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And then there were two other losses that happened after
that one.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, so after my topic, I had a really really,
really hard time with that loss. I was probably a
month out from surgery when my brother and sister in
law announced they were pregnant. So and I'm really close
to my brother, to that brother especially, and it really
kind of sucked the air out of me because I
(23:57):
was like, Oh, now she's going to be pregnant over
things Giving and Christmas, and I was going to be
pregnant over Thanksgiving and Christmas, and oh we could have
been pregnant together and all this stuff. So that was
really hard, and that really caused like a big friction
in my relationship with my brother and sister in law.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Because I just didn't want to be around them. I
just I.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Needed space, I needed to separate. I actually started going
to lost groups after that, and it was so nice
to not be alone, but it was also hard because
I started finding out all of the ways you could
lose a child. So before I knew about this many
ways to lose a child, and now I was like, oh, wow,
it can really happen. At forty weeks, you can lose
(24:41):
a child. Everything can be fine one day and the
next day I can't be.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, that's not necessarily great information for somebody who's struggling
with anxiety exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
And then I was feeling guilty because a lot of
these groups I went to they didn't have any children,
and so then I was like, well, at least I
have one.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And so what you're doing there is you're doing the
comparative loss game, where you feel like, I don't deserve
to feel the depth of the loss that I'm feeling,
because look what happened to this person. They lost their
baby thirty eight weeks and for me it was seven weeks.
(25:19):
Or I already have a child and they don't have
a child, so my loss isn't as intense as their loss.
And people do that all the time, and I think
that ties into this what guy was talking about earlier
about on the one hand, you perceive everything that goes
wrong as a personal failure of yours, and on the
(25:39):
other hand, you feel like, oh, but you know, I
really have it good, so I can't really experience this
loss and I need to kind of just buck up
and be happy for my brother when he announces the pregnancy.
Did your brother know what you had been through?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And this is what made it even harder. And my
brother is super open things, and so he was even
open with me when I was going through it to
say like, oh, well, we want another one, but it's
going to be a while. It's definitely going to be
a while until we have another one. So in my mind,
(26:17):
I was like, okay, good, I'm not going to have
to deal with any pregnant family members.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
For a while. And also I shared.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
With him about how hard it was, and he goes, well,
a lot of people have miscarriages. It's pretty common, and
so it felt very dismissed and very invalidated. And then
a week later or not probably not a week later,
but a couple of weeks later is when he shared
(26:44):
that they were pregnant and then couldn't understand why, you know,
I needed more than a day to process it and
was very hurt about the fact that I didn't want
to see them, and so it just made it hard.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And has that relationship been repaired since then.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
It has made very helpful by the fact that his
oldest daughter and my daughter are year apart and they're
like best friends, and so it sort of forced me
to be like, well, I want my daughter to see
her cousin and have that relationship. And then also once
my nephew was born, it was easier to be around
(27:23):
him and to really just love and adore him and
say it's not his fault, it's not you know, he's
a beautiful gift and he's here and it's you know,
a wonderful addition to our family. And you know, they
recently announced that they're pregnant with their thirds, so and
here I am still barren as ever, so I'm like, wow,
they've had three children and I just have one time.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
I'm out, I've just had one.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
That sounds so painful and you're sort of laughing through it.
But the way that you talk about it is, well,
I'm here, i am, I'm barren, as if it's your
fault or you have any control over this. Again going
back to that perception as this being a personal failure
of yours, and I think that just adds to the pain.
(28:10):
The pain is going to be there, but when you
frame it that way, I think you're layering more pain
on top of the already existing pain. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Part of what why I wrote to you guys, because
it's like, I don't even know how to process it
all well.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
In part because it's been such a series of trauma
and loss, the birth being really difficult, the postpartum depression,
struggling to get help but really not finding the help
that you needed, and then struggling for so long afterwards
even and then you have that other pregnancy, the ectomic pregnancy,
and all the trauma of that and the incredible pain
(28:49):
that you were in, and that was one thing after
the other, and then getting that text when you were
in the ear, and then in any event, it sounds
like it's been quite relentless, and so in part it's
hard to make sense of things when you're still in them.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And the other thing about this kind of loss is
that you have to face it every day in the
sense of you walk out onto the street and there
are babies and there are pregnant women, and you're walking
down the aisles of Target, and you think you're just
going for the things that you need but oop, there's
the diaper aisle and look at these women there, and
(29:27):
you want to where maybe you do burst into tears
in public and nobody knows this internal struggle that you're experiencing.
And I don't know if people at work know what's
going on with you, if other friends know what's going
on with you, if it's just your family. But often
people don't realize that even though you are trying to
(29:49):
manage and get through your days, that reminders of this
pop up all the time. And ad will pop up
on your computer for baby products. Guy use the word relentless,
and I think think it is relentless. And there's that
the silence of it because a lot of people don't know.
It's not visible what you're going through. And then there's
the again, the ambiguous grief of like maybe this month,
(30:12):
oh no, not this month, it didn't happen, will it
ever happen? So am I grieving that I'm never going
to have a second child? Or am I grieving the
loss that's right in front of me right now that
this this month, I'm not having a second child.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Yeah, I mean all those things we had to wait
a while.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
After I had to wait like at least six months
after my surgery, and then I was able to get
pregnant again and was happy about it.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
But next day I started bleeding.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Then we have to do this you know, procedure to
suck out the tissue, and so not even that was
like a simple process. It was like, okay, is this
my life? But I was like I can't. This can't
happen more than twice.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
And so.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
It was maybe not even six weeks later that I
found out I was pregnant again, and so I was
very excited and like I felt really confident this time.
And I actually started getting like nauseous the next week
and really really tired and just really had a lot
of symptoms of pregnancy, and went to get my blood
(31:21):
work done and they just said, well, it's kind of uncertain,
why don't you come back, And it was scheduled for
New Year's Eve. So it was really hard because I
had to go through Christmas and everything like not telling anybody,
And so we went for the ultrasound on New Year's
Eve and they just said I'm sorry, you know, the
(31:44):
baby step growing, and you know, I was devastated and
I cried and my husband got like he looked like
he was really upset, and I was like, oh my gosh,
he's finally showing emotion.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
The doctor left the room or whatever, but he.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Literally said to me, you have one at home, right
and I said yes, and he goes, you'll have three
kids before you know it, and I was like, what,
this is so invalidating and so upsetting, And then you know,
they go, you can let yourself out the back door
because nobody wants a crying person to walk through the
waiting room, and so you literally have to go out
(32:23):
the back door to the parking garage. And so it
just felt very like this is not happening again, Like
how am I going.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
To get through this?
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Like this feels absolutely impossible? How am I going to
even try again? Because how could I ever go through
this again? And that also just absolutely broke me.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So you got this devastating news, then you know you
have to go through a devastating medical procedure which can't
be even more painful emotionally because of it, and you're thinking,
I can't I can't go through this again. I'm not
sure how I'm getting through it this time. Are you
able to verbalize that to your husband? Was he able
to be there for you and understand the depths of
your despair at that moment.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
In some ways, yes, I mean he he said, I'm sad.
You know I wanted this baby, but like this is
gonna sound bad, but I was just like, why why
doesn't this hurt you more?
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Why isn't this more painful for you?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
What are the discussions like between the two of you
now about what your options are?
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Well, you know, we just talked about this the other
day because I said, do we even want a second one?
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Because I feel like.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
I'm pushing harder than you are. He said, you are
pushing harder, but I do want another one.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Do you know if he has any fears about what
it might be like to try again given what you
both have been through.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
I should ask him that is there a plan between
the two of you, like, if we keep trying after
this many months, we are willing to try other measures
or other ideas, or we're going to say we're going
to kind of close the book on this if it
(34:14):
doesn't happen after a certain amount of time.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
And are you two on the same page, Because often
what happens is one person feels like I'm willing to
do this, and the other person feels like I've had enough.
Where are the two of you? Do you even know?
Speaker 4 (34:29):
I don't know? And this is so sad for me,
Like you don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Where you are, or you don't know where he is,
or you don't know both both.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I don't know how to talk to him about it
because what we've talked about has just sort of been like, well,
let's just try this now and see if it works.
Like at what point do I just say like one
is enough and like I hate saying that because my
(35:02):
daughter is enough, and so.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
I struggle with this.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It can be.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Both and that your daughter is enough and you want
a second child.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I understand you have these discussions with your husband occasionally,
certainly when stuff happens. How much is it in the
air between you in the day to day, how much
is it in your head in the day to day
versus his, and how much is it hovering between you
right now?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
I would say it's a huge part of where I'm at.
I take like fifteen supplements a day at this point,
and he's taking supplements and I'm like, did you take
your supplements?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
And then I.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Feel bad about that, And sometimes I'm like, well, can
you just drink less?
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Like so that, like do you care about this?
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Like what does he say when you ask him do
you care about this? And when you feel like you
have to be the person and who reminds him to
do these things that might help increase your chances of
having a child.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
He gets mad, like, of course I do, of course
I care.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
It's so hard for him.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
It sounds like it's a little bit more sporadic. He
might be taking supplements every morning, but he's not living
it every minute, perhaps the way you are. Does he
talk to you about that about whether is he concerned
that you're too much in it too much of the time?
Is he expressing your concern about you being able to
(36:33):
be fully present in the lives that you have.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, Like I think he wishes I could just let
go and just not be so anxious about things.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
What is the state of the couplehood? And how are
you doing together as a married couple with a young daughter.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Yeah, I feel like we're doing good.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
But even like you just start in a new job
that's like really stressful, and so the other day I
was like, oh, do you just feel overwhelmed, and he goes, no,
I don't get overwhelmed. I'm just figuring it out, and
I'm like, I'm always overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I don't know, but that right there might be in
a microcosm the way that the two of you are
dealing with this pregnancy issue, that he does feel things.
He does have anxiety or sadness or with times he
might have been devastated, but the way that he manages
(37:37):
those feelings is different from the way that you do.
And it doesn't mean one is better than the other.
It just means that sometimes couples can feel like, well,
why aren't you feeling anything about this? And he might
be feeling a lot about it, but what he does
with those feelings is a little bit different, and so
you don't see it in the same way.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, Like, how do I get him to acknowledge his feelings?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I think from what you're describing, what he does is
he can compartmentalize. What that means is that what you
put aside is not the knowledge of what happened, but
the emotion attached to it. You can detach from that feeling,
have the awareness, but really kind of segment the feeling
away to a certain extent, And I think that you
(38:19):
chose him perhaps for this reason, because you are somebody
who deals with a lot of anxiety, But you chose
somebody rocks onlid. You chose somebody who has these emotions
but manages them in a way that he's like steady
Eddy all the time. And you are somebody who tends
to be anxious, And so it's actually really useful to
be with someone who's very steady, because then it doesn't
(38:42):
compound the anxiety. When two people get anxious at the
same time, they can really feed into one another. I
do want to ask you, though, are you aware of
the severity of the anxiety that you have? Are you
treating it still?
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I am still taking that as for it, but I
think it's gotten worse. I've had a few people say like, oh,
you need to talk to somebody about, you know, your
struggles and things like that. One of the big things
I'm struggling with is.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Just managing.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Like I almost just wish I could be like just oh,
I'm just gonna have one and then just be done
so that I don't have to, like, you know, worry
about all this stuff and have it be so consuming.
But like I can't get it out of my mind
that like I don't necessarily feel like our families complete,
and I do, there is like hope there that maybe
(39:44):
maybe it's not. But then I also know that if
I do get that positive pregnancy test, but that's only
the beginning, and then like there's nine months of different anxiety.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I think what you're talking about is that you're in
this situation where you feel like you have so little
control not only of whether you get pregnant, or whether
the pregnancy is viable, or whether the pregnancy results in
a healthy baby, but also in terms of what happens
when you wake up in the morning, and what's going
to pop up on your screen, and what you're going
(40:19):
to see on Facebook, and who's going to announce a
new pregnancy. So all of that feels very unpredictable and
out of your control. But I think there are certain
things that you do have control over. Do I want
to know if someone's pregnant, or do I want to
know later on whether they're farther along, or maybe an
email would be better for me because I don't want
(40:40):
to have to respond in that moment. It's excruciating to
have to respond in that moment. It's like I hear
this from single people a lot, where they say, you know,
my friend called me and she told me she got engaged,
and I was supposed to be so happy. And it
was the third person that month who told me they
were engaged the same thing. And so maybe the parts
that you have control over are the parts that I
(41:01):
think are important to focus on. How do I deal
with going out in the world and the inevitable injuries
that I'm going to experience as I go through my day.
What parts of that might I ask something from people
around me to help me through this. And so before
we get to the advice, we just had one last
(41:22):
thing we wanted to ask about, which is tell us
a little bit about your daughter and what her experience
of all of this is.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
I am so grateful that she was so young when
I had my first loss and I was trying to
process it so much. But I mean, I haven't been shy,
like you know, I believe that my losses are angels
and that they're you know, they're in heaven. And so
she's asked about siblings before, and I've told her, oh,
(41:51):
you have brothers and sisters in heaven. So in the fall,
we lost our first pets, our first pets that we
had together, and she was kind of like mine before
we got married, and so it is very very hard
on all of us, but my husband especially was like
(42:14):
outwardly crying for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
And one of my.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
First thoughts was, how dare you get this upset about
our cat when you didn't even cry this much about
our children. And then I felt bad for a feeling
like that and was kind of just like, well, at
least it feels nice not to grieve alone.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Sometimes in couples, when one of them sees the other
one is really really struggling, they really button up their
emotions because it's difficult for two people to go to
pieces at the same time. And it's possible that with
the cat, he saw that you were managing it better,
and therefore he allowed himself to access his feelings a
(42:58):
little bit more, and his concern for you. In the
other cases of losing the pregnancies, his concern for you
didn't allow him to access his own feelings. So it
wasn't a statement about what he was grieving more. It
was a statement about where he felt he had room
(43:18):
to access those feelings.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And it's also possible that because he felt like he
had permission to grieve, that he wasn't just grieving the cat,
that it was complicated, and that he was grieving the
cat and he was grieving all the other losses that
he had held inside for all this time. But you
(43:41):
don't know because the two of you haven't really talked
about it. So, Diane, you've been through a lot and
it has touched everyone in the family. And we do
have some advice that we'd like you to try this week.
And the first part is that something that really feeds
(44:03):
anxiety is a sense of lack of control. And there's
a lot that we don't have control over in life,
but there are some things that we do. And one
of the ways that we think you might feel like
you have a little more control in this situation is
to have a plan that you and your husband agree upon.
(44:24):
And so we'd like you to sit down with your
husband and have a real direct conversation about what is
our plan given where we are now, and very specifically,
are we willing to try one round of IVF, are
we willing to try none? Are we willing to try too?
(44:47):
What would be our timetable on that. How long are
we going to continue the acupuncture and the supplements. Are
we going to consider adoption or a surrogate or a donor,
are we going to keep trying naturally? And for how long?
So that you're not living in the maybe and in
(45:07):
the well, we'll just kind of leave it up to
something out there, but that we're taking action with an
agreed upon plan and then you know, we'll see what happens.
We don't have control over that, but we do have
control over the plan, and that's something you can come
up with together in terms of what you're both comfortable
with where you're both at emotionally, physically, fatigue wise at
(45:32):
this point.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
How do you recommend having him think about it? Because
I feel like he's just going to say we'll figure it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Out, and you'll say, actually, as you know, I struggle
with anxiety, Dave, and having this uncertainty is probably not
best for me. And as much as I would like
to just figure it out and take it step by step,
I think it would be better for both of us
if we had an idea that had parameters so we
have a sense, so we're not spending the next five
(46:03):
ten years in this still with uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
So we want you to first have that conversation with
your husband, and then we want you to have one
more conversation with him, and it's really an opener to
getting the two of you to be able to start
talking on a deeper level about what you've both been
through so that it doesn't bleed into the future when
(46:27):
you don't deal with it. And we want you to
go back to the cat dying, and we want you
to tell Dave that, even though at the time you
had a certain reaction to it, that you've really reflected
on that and that you think it's really beautiful that
he was able to express his grief and loss over
(46:50):
the cat and it made you feel so much closer
to him to see him really be able to express
his grief, and that you have a suspicion that maybe
he's been holding some of his grief back around the
pregnancy losses because your grief has been so big, and
(47:12):
that you want to let him know that you would
like to open that door and that you are able
to handle whatever he's feeling, whatever grief he's experiencing, so
that it doesn't become a dynamic between you where you're
the one who gets to express grief and he has
to be the steady eddie. That you can be the
(47:33):
steady eddie at times, and he's the one who's kind
of falling apart, and you want to let him know
that you can be that person for him, and that
you realize that when you saw him grieving over the cat,
you were so moved by it. It made you feel
so much more contained seeing that he was experiencing something
(47:54):
and you could be there for him.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
We have two quick pieces of advice. One about your daughter.
We think that the conversations that you've been having with
her around the extra sibling, they've been a little painful
for you, obviously, but we think they've been a little
heavy for her because she's just saying, hey, this would
be fun another baby brother or sister, kind of like
(48:19):
having a puppy. It's like just fun. They don't realize
that's a lot of work, that puppy and that little
baby brother and sister. So we'd like to suggest that
when she brings it up again, and she probably will,
that you say to her, you know what, we don't
know if we're going to have another baby, but you
know what, we do know that our family is great
(48:42):
as it is. And you know what, we do know
that we love each other very much, the three of
us already. So maybe we'll get an extra member of
the family, maybe we won't, but we can be so
happy just the three of us. That's the most important part.
And I see that you're tearing up when I say that, Yeah,
(49:05):
can you tell me what you're feeling?
Speaker 6 (49:10):
Yeah, because we are a beautiful family, and she's so
important to us and brings us so much joy, and
I just want her to always know that she's enough.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Great. We also think if she has friends who don't
have siblings, them's some good playdates to arrange, perhaps so
she can see that that's something that's not uncommon.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
It's almost like the way that when you walk out
into the world you see pregnant women and other women
with babies. I think that the way that it's been
framed in your family, that's what she sees when she
goes out. And you said, you kept correcting yourself. You
said all of her friends have Oh, well, I mean
most of her friends have siblings. So there are other
(49:57):
families that have one child, and it would be helpful,
I think for her to have some play dates with them,
not that you won't comment on it. You're not going
to say, look, they only have one child. You're just
going to expose her to different kinds of family so
that she understands that their families come in all shapes
and sizes.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
The last piece of advice is that we would like
you to get a little bit more informed about anxiety.
I think you know quite a bit, but I think
there's more for you to know because it's something that
you're dealing with quite significantly, and I think that you
need to read something a book such as The Anxiety
(50:39):
Toolkit by doctor Alice Boyce, which is a very practical
toolkit to deal with anxiety. It explains what goes on,
but it gives you some tools and strategies. And we'd
like you to find two tools or techniques that you
can tell us about using and that you start to
implement in your life. Does that sound okay?
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
I was diagnosed with anxiety when I was in eighth grade,
so I feel like I've been learning about it forever.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
But I think just.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
As it as like I evolve, so does it, so
I probably just need new new ways of coping with
like the new things I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
It was a pleasure talking to you, and you know
you've you've been through a lot, and we both really
really pushed the best for you.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time and
it was great. It's see your faces too. I wish
I could talk to you every week.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
I'm actually quite hopeful that Dane will be able to
follow through on all the tasks we gave her. I'm
trying to think if we've ever given somebody that many tasks.
Even though some of them were small, it was quite
a it's quite a bit that we've given her to
do right her.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
We gave her three, but the first one had a
two parter.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Right, so that was a lot to do. But I
have a lot of faith in her. I think she's
really eager to change her situation, at least emotionally, given
how she's really been through so much already.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, And I think the important point is that we're
not doing what I think a lot of people do,
which is telling her not to feel what she's feeling.
We're saying, we want to help you cope with what you're.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Feeling, and you want to help the two of you
as a couple who've been through this together cope with
what you're feeling and as a family, indeed with her
daughter as well.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.
We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
So we heard from Diane and we had given her
a lot of homework. I'm curious to see how that went.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Hi, Lori and Guy, it's Diane. I just wanted to
update you about my week. It was a busy week
with lots to do, but I, you know, told my
husband that I wanted to have these conversations about these
specific things, and we sat down and were able to
just really talk openly and honestly about how we were
(53:21):
feeling about everything. I apologized for really not having a
conversation sooner about wanting to be very intentional about trying again.
And you know, before we started doing the supplements and
the acupuncture, that was something I had sort of just
taken on by myself, and that was honestly, obviously a conversation.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
We really needed to have together.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
And then we kind of came up with a plan
going forward of you know, how long we were going
to try everything and what the next steps were. We
talked about being open to adoption and and you know,
research different options and talk to different agencies and things
like that.
Speaker 4 (54:06):
So that was exciting.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
I'm very hopeful going forward, and it really helped us
establish a great path forward for communications like this.
Speaker 4 (54:18):
So I just kind of.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Rolled the second conversation up into that first one, and
we talked about, you know, our previous losses and everything
like that. So it was really nice to really talk
about that now that we're kind of more removed from it,
and you know, talk about our feelings about that. And
then I also talked to our daughter and and emphasized
(54:45):
again that we are a complete family, just the three
of us, and she just said, I know, but I
really want a little brother. So I think she's not
quite quite there yet either, but I'm just going to
keep telling her that, you know, maybe one day she'll
have a little brother or sister, and maybe she won't,
(55:06):
but no matter what, we're just so grateful that.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
We have her.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
I also ordered the Anxiety Toolkit by Alice Boys that
guy recommended, and I'm about twenty pages in even this
soon in the book, it's already really opened my eyes
to how much anxiety permeates my life. I'm really glad
that you guys opened my eyes back up to making
(55:32):
that front and center, because it is front and center,
and now I'm able to kind.
Speaker 4 (55:38):
Of address that.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
So just sort of looking ahead at the chapters on
paralyzing perfectionism and rumination, I know that just being aware
of the fact that I'm doing it, that I'm spending
time ruminating, and that I'm kind of getting in my
own way, I think is gonna really help me move forward.
(56:01):
And I haven't tried anything specifically since I just kind
of got started, but I'm very excited about really getting
into it and trying these strategies. And I also got
a few recommendations for therapists when I went to see
my acupuncturists today, so excited to reach out to them
and hopefully continue this weekly. So thank you so much.
(56:27):
You guys made such a big difference on many parts
of my life, and I'm very hopeful going forward.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
So sometimes when there's a big issue going on, it
tends to mask the other things that really need to
be addressed. And what was so great about what Diane
did this week was she really got in there and said,
I need to talk about the communication with my husband,
and she hadn't really dealt with her anxiety that had
(57:02):
been a lifelong issue with her. They were so focused
on having a baby that they didn't realize that there
were other things that also needed to be addressed.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
And what I loved was that when she told us
about telling her daughter, hey, we're a complete family. You
might have a little brother or sister, or you might not,
and her daughter was saying, yeah, I know, but I
really want a little brother. That was the kind of
thing that would have made her very upset before. And
she said it with a laugh, a smile in her voice, like, oh,
(57:35):
you know, five year olds they just wanted the little sibling.
There was already some emotional distance that she had from
that issue. And I think that when you tackle things
and you really get into the feelings and you really
talk about them in a complete way, it actually eases
the feelings you have about things, rather than exacerbates them.
(57:58):
And I'm so glad that that's happened.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Yea, it really does. And I'm so glad that she
and her husband have begun to talk about the loss
and the roller coaster that they've been on and the
grief and how it affects them individually. I don't think
that they've been able to really share their feelings with
each other, and they've kind of tiptoed around that, And
so I think this is going to be really helpful
(58:21):
as they continue on whatever path, and that they have
a path now that they're starting to say, wait, what
is the plan here? So that we aren't in limbo forever?
Speaker 2 (58:30):
And what makes that plan work is that they're making
it together.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out a year later.
Speaker 7 (58:45):
It's made me realize how hard I am on myself,
and I remember Laurie and Guys saying something about me
not feeling like I was inherently lovable as I am,
and I'm slowly beginning to realize that I don't need to.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Perform to be loved.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
You can also find us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb
dot com and you can follow me on Twitter at
(59:19):
lorigottlib one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author, and.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
I'm at Guywinch dot com and on Twitter and Instagram
at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to
discuss with us, we go smooth. Email us at Lorianguy
at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Liften. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast Fairygodmother Katie Kuric. We can't
wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 2 (59:55):
Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 6 (01:00:00):
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