August 23, 2025 • 36 mins
In this Roundtable discussion, we explore the role of romance in fiction and real life. Author and political leader Stacey Abrams explains how she weaves it into her suspense novels by focusing on authentic human connection, while therapist Lori Gottlieb brings her perspective on love off the page. Together, we look at how romance is imagined, experienced, and sustained today.
Resources & links related to this episode:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This special episode the Romance Roundtable is brought to you
exclusively by Audible. Do you love a good love story?
The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every
side of you. You may love a story about a
deliance with a duke, or perhaps the sexy billionaire, set
in the big city, or at the hockey rink, or
(00:21):
in another realm with dragons. Here modern rom coms from
authors like Lily Chew, romantic series from Sarah J. Moss,
and Rebecca Yarrow's Regency favorites like the new Audible original
Pride and Prejudice, plus the really Steamy stuff. Your first
great love story is free when you sign up for
a free thirty day trial at audible dot com. Hello,
(00:57):
we are here for More Happier, a podcast where we
get happier. Today's episode is a special edition in our
Roundtable Conversation series, and the topic today is romance because
for so many of us, romance is an important aspect
of a happier life, so it's a great subject for
a roundtable discussion. The three of us are here today
to talk it over. I'm Gretchen Riven, a writer who
(01:20):
studies happiness and human nature, and I'm host of the
Happier with Gretchen Rubn podcast, and here today are my
two terrific guests. First, Stacy Abrams Stacy S.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Stacey Abrams is.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
A best selling author whose romance novels, written under the
pen name Selena Montgomery. I love the idea of having
a pen name, explores themes of passion, justice, identity, and power.
Her latest book, Coded Justice, is a legal thriller that
takes on questions of technology, ethics, and accountability with romance
woven in too.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
You may also know her.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
As a nationally recognized political leader and voting rights advocate.
She served as Minority leader of the Georgia House of
Representatives and found it Fair Fight Action and other civic
organizations to expand voting access and representation.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Hello, Stacy, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Gretchen, it's so fun to have you here, and I
am also excited to be talking to Laurie gottlieb. Laur
Gottlie is a psychotherapist and New York Times best selling
author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has
sold more than three million copies. In addition to her
clinical practice, she is also co host of the popular
Dear Therapist podcast and writes the Ask the Therapist column
(02:29):
for The New York Times. Hello, Laurie, so great to
be here, Gretchen, Well, it's so fun to be here
today to talk to you too about the state of romance.
So in fiction, Stacy, that's your lane, the reality of it, Laurie,
that's your lane. And then where the two of these
meet in our daily lives. And I think we all
have some stock ideas of what romance looks like. But today,
let's talk about what romance really means today in our
(02:52):
modern lives in twenty twenty five. Let's get into it,
the mysteries and science of attraction, maintaining passion, practical suggestions for.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Making and keeping connections, and.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
What we value most these days in our most intimate lives.
And let's start what's fiction with Stacy. I am someone
who loves fiction, and I really place tremendous value on
the role of fiction in our lives. We can learn
so much about human nature by studying novels. Plus, what
is more fun than reading nothing? So, Stacy, when you
think about building romance into your stories, how do you
(03:24):
think about that element?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I always start with what's the most honest way to
connect people, Especially when you're writing suspense, which is what
I write, whether I'm writing romantic suspense or legal thrillers,
I'm already suspending disbelief about what's happening around them. People
don't get shot at this often by you know, nefarious
or party or being threatened by rogue AI. So the
(03:49):
question is if you're going to create a human relationship
that has to feel so grounded that the absurdities makes sense.
And starting there means having characters that you know well
enough to understand what do they like, what don't they like,
and what do they need? And often romance is about
finding someone who is what you need, but that you
(04:10):
are something that they need, And constructing a novel you
have to think about how do you unravel and reveal
each of those pieces and set it up so that
it happens in between you know, mayhem and torture.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, when you say what people need, what kind of
things do you think of as what people need?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So, for example, my very first romance novel, it was
a spy who basically felt responsible for the death of
people around her, including the death of the best friend
of the man she was in love with He was
angry with her, had given up his back, and he
basically abandoned his career because he could not trust. And
so she needed to find someone who understood her and
(04:50):
could help her forgive herself. And he needed someone who
could push him past his suspicions and his instinctive rejection
of the And so they had to find each other,
but they had to navigate the fact that maybe sort
of she killed his best friend, and they had to
save the world while.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
They were doing it right. So by in need, it's
very specific.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
That's so interesting that will say, it's typically a poor
need that we if we were told articulated, we could,
but it would take talking to Lori first and later
on out. But you can usually tell that with most people.
We kind of know with our friends this is a
person or this is a gap, and you don't want
someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who
(05:30):
helps you understand how to make yourself better. So I'm
also very intentional about never having the solution to a
problem be another person's, having another person help my main
character find their own solution.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Now, have you noticed a shift in what readers expect
from romance in fiction today? As opposed to like ten
years or twenty years ago. Are there's certain tropes or
themes that fall in and out of favor that you've noticed.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I mean, certainly in the early eighties early nineties, hyper
masculinity was a big part of the romance novel genre.
We've seen that hypermasculinity necessarily be reduced, in part because
it often was a cloak for non consent or for
an aggressive approach to romance that was a bit of
(06:17):
a shorthand I don't have to deal with my issues
because I could just sweep you up in an embrace
and tell you who you need to be. But I
think it's also women because I write from a woman's perspective.
It's making sure that the women who are at the
center of the novels have as much agency in who
they want to be with as they do in the
(06:37):
fact that they're going to fall in love and what
they do with their daily lives.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
And just back to sort of what you were saying
before about you want to write something that feels real
and that people can really identify with. But you're in
these tremendously heightened circumstances that most of us do not face,
and seem sort of extreme. How do you balance that
idea of the fantastical or the idealized elements in rome,
which is part of what people like in romance, and
(07:02):
also the sense of realism that people can connect with
because we want both things at the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That seems hard to manage.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Well, when I'm writing a suspense novel, my theory is
I can write something that is improbable but not impossible.
When it comes to romance, you want to write things
that are idealized but not absurd, meaning that you are
going to have the conversation instead of talking past each other,
you are going to confront this instead of pretending you
(07:30):
didn't see the note.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
It's idealized in the sense that people behave better than
they would.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
They eventually do.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
They make the mistakes, and you can't follow a journey
if there aren't detours. But I try to make certain
that you're not screaming at the book. Just do this
unless if you're screaming, it to be because you're encouraging,
not because you're frustrated and about to throw the book
across the room. And I think the fantastical elements that
tend to happen are ones where problems get automatically solved
(07:58):
or worse, where those problems aren't real and they're just
in the heads of the person that to me. And
this is back to the tropes making sure we no
longer dismiss legitimate pain or pretend that legitimate pain can
be overcome with a good kiss and a good romance.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Like a very easy resolution. You feel like that's not
satisfying anymore. That's not giving people the working through of
a problem exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They want to join you in the journey, but they
want to believe that when they leave you behind and
can't come and visit you on Thursday, that you're still
going to be okay. And if you have the sort
of sort of damocles of emotional harm hanging out there,
I'm going to be worried about you.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So now I need to know that you at least
now have the tools to navigate once I close the book.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, when you're trying to build characters that really feel
like they're related to each other, so part of it
is that need that they're fulfilling. But what else do
you do to make it feel earned and natural? Because
I almost think that this is something that people do
look to fiction as kind of a model for like
how do people have conversations or like how would you
handle that moment of engagement? Do you listen to people
(09:00):
that you over here in a coffee shop? How do
you listen so that it has that ring of truth?
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So in Coded Justice, which is a legal thriller, there
is a relationship Avery Keane, my main character, has a
boyfriend that she met the first book under very dark circumstances,
and they're still together, but there's a tension that's developing.
There are other people who might like her, and she's
got to figure out where does she sit. And so
one of the scenes in the book is a conversation
(09:25):
that she has first with her best friend. And so
I think it's important that you have a broad canvas
of people. So, yeah, so I've replicated conversations I've had
with girlfriends. Girlfriends have me where I'm like, you do
know what you've said, you do know what that is,
And so you know that conversation you have where you're
telling what happened from your point of view, yes, and
then your best friend's like, you are full of sick,
(09:47):
what did you actually think happened? So I have that
kind of scene, and then I have a scene where
they actually don't directly confront what's happening, but they both
know there's something And so I think, before you jump
to the resolution, and you owe the reader the journey
of both sides understanding there's something happening. And so I
try to make sure there are small scenes that really
(10:09):
signal we all know what we're seeing without there having
to be a lot of exposition. Because to your point
about conversation, we learn most in dialogue and writing. It's
easier to tell than it is to show, and I
try really hard to find ways to show the dynamic.
It may be a hand on the small of her back,
it may be her leaning her head against his shoulder
(10:31):
or bringing him downer, but it's something that signals that
I know something has happened. And in addition to the
big conversation we have to have, let's show the small
elements of relationship that feel familiar, so that when the
next terrible, crazy thing happens, I believe enough in you
that I'm going to trust you to come back and
make it better.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, And when you're reading and all that is so
satisfying to see those small changes happen.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's what gives it that ring of truth so interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, coming up, we're going to hear from Lori Gottlie
about the realities of modern relationships that she has observed
as a therapist and also in her own life. But
before that, I want to say thanks to our sponsor today, Audible.
Do you love a captivating love story? Are you hungry
for a romance that will transport you to another place
in time? You can find whatever you're looking for with Audible.
(11:21):
The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every
side of you. Do you enjoy a love story featuring
a duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. Do you prefer
a story set in the excitement of a big city,
in the charm of a small town, at a busy ranch,
or a bustling college campus, or maybe on a movie
(11:44):
set at the beach or by a hockey rink. Do
you seek out stories set in the distant past, in
the familiar present, or in the remote future. Or maybe
nothing on this earth satisfies your imagination and you want
to find love in another realm with dragons. Maybe you
love a story in which friends become lovers or enemies
(12:06):
become lovers. Or maybe you love a story of a
second chance or forced proximity, or a love triangle. That's
one of my favorites. I love a good love triangle.
You can find all those stories and more with Audible.
With Audible, you can hear modern rom coms from authors
like Lily Chew, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J.
(12:27):
Moss and Rebecca Yarros, regency favorites like the new Audible
original Pride and Prejudice, plus all the really steamy stuff.
When it comes to what romance you're into, you can
find anything and everything you're looking for with Audible. Audible
is the leading creator and provider of premium audio storytelling.
(12:48):
Audible excites the imagination with stories and ideas that open
you up to more possibilities. Listening can change your mood,
your life, maybe even the world. Listening gives a break
from the every day and allows you to dream bigger.
And if you've never listened on Audible before, here is
a great deal for you. Your first great love story
(13:12):
is free when you sign up for a free thirty
day trial at audible dot com.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's right, your.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
First great love story is free when you sign up
for a free thirty day trial at audible dot com.
And now let's turn to some observations and insights from Laurie,
and then we'll have a conversation with all the three
of us at the end. But first, Laurie, you deal
with people. I'm sure relationships come up all the time.
What do you think are some of the major misconceptions
about romance that people have these days? Maybe from their
(13:42):
own upbringing, maybe it's from the media, maybe it's from fiction.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Do we have any ideas that just aren't very helpful?
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is that
people think romance needs to be really big, like the
grand romantic gesture, and sometimes the most romantic thing is
the really small thing. Yeah, it's like he was saying, like,
did the person put their hand on the small of
your back when you were entering a restaurant? The little
things that they notice about you. There's such an intimacy
(14:09):
around just being noticed and understood, and so a romantic
gesture is just maybe something a little bit unexpected because
we need a little mystery to it. But that happens
to come from a grounded place and not a let's
do this huge thing, and that's going to be romantic
because it doesn't feel personal and it doesn't feel like
you're really known. So the more that the gesture includes
(14:33):
something very specific about you makes it incredibly romantic.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So you think people have this kind of idea that
you need to have this promposal Instagram grand gesture with
one hundred roses or something, whereas in fact, what really
makes people feel loved and seen is when you're like, oh,
I saw your favorite, super random flavor of ice cream
in the drug store, and so I brought some home
for you.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yes, yes, Or it's like, you know, I'm going to
make this dessert that I know you love, but it's
a surprise you coming from a day at work and
you were.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Not expecting that, and that's incredibly romantic.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So it feels it seems like it's domestic, but it's
actually romantic.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Is there anything else any other kind of big watchouts?
That's very useful to think about, both on the receiving
end and on the giving end.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I would say I think that people put too much
pressure on the need for romance, So romance comes organically.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
The best romance is something that naturally happens.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Of course, you have to be intentional about it, but
you don't want to put pressure on it. So when
they're like Valentine's Day, everybody's trying so hard to be romantic,
and most people end up saying, I had the worst
time at this restaurant with you know. It was like
this beautiful restaurant, but it didn't feel romantic at all,
you know, or the flowers or this or that. There's
(15:43):
sort of these expectations of these symbols like, yeah, it
has to be flowers or.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Jewelry or whatever.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
These symbols are of romance that don't tend to really
speak to I think what can be an elevated sense
of romance. It reminds me I had this couple and
the woman was saying to her husband, you know what
the most romantic words you could say to me? You
know what three words I would really like to hear more.
And he, of course said, I love you. I need
to say I love you more.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
She said, no, it's I understand you.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
She's like, that is so romantic when you say I
understand you. It's so intimate to be understood fully by
this person that you know that you have this chemistry with.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Well, now, when people are so busy, there's so much pressure,
there's so many demands on our time. Do you think
people give priority to their romantic relationships these days? Do
you think that is something? I mean, people are certainly
drawn to reading about romance. They love reading about romance.
Do you think that they in their own lives they're
making it a priority.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
I think they aren't making it a priority as much
as they could. I think that's why partly why Stacy's books,
which are excellent anyway, but I think that's why people
want to read about it, because they feel like, wait
a minute, I need more of that that's missing in
my life, and so I think that people need to
think more about it, but again in these smaller ways.
I love what Stacy said earlier about sort of the
(17:00):
intersection of mayhem and torture. I thought was an app
description of romance.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
So it's like you want it to be something that
feels different and exciting, but you know, like when you're
in the beginning of a relationship and it feels so
romantic because you're.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Like, will this person call me? Do they like me?
Speaker 4 (17:17):
What's going to happen next? Are we going to kiss
on this date? You know what's going to happen? Are
we going to end up in bed together? It's all
that sort of the torture of like waiting between dates,
and then there's the may have of just it takes
you out of your everyday life. So I think when
people want to focus on romancing, do you think what
would take us out of our everyday life?
Speaker 5 (17:37):
Right?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Yes, Like it could be the simplest thing of let's
go dancing. We don't do that, like, let's just go dancing, right,
it's the simplest thing, or even things that make you
feel like doing something that does not feel like your
daily thing, like let's go to an amusement park and have.
Speaker 5 (17:51):
This scary experience on a roller coaster.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That research that shows that if a couple does something
that elevates their heart rate, they read it as emotional,
like even though it's just like, no, that's just roller coaster,
but you get to fake.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
It, right, and you're also you're in this heightened state.
And I think you know it's when you're doing an activity.
So you know a lot of people say, well.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Fighting crime exactly, you have to really.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Up the ante there.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Yeah, But I do think that some people will say Oh,
it's really romantic if we're like sitting on the couch
watching Netflix. And it can be really romantic if the
mood is right and you have the setting right. But
it's also really romantic to do something completely out of
both of your ordinary experiences, you know, like going on
the roller coasters or taking a dance class or whatever
(18:37):
it is.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Well, speaking of torture and mayhem, let's talk about the
dating apps and online interactions. How has that changed the
way people develop a romantic connection these days? Is it
making it easier to fast track to intimacy. It's kind
of a different courtship. How do you see that playing out?
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I think it's much less romantic. So so many of
my therapy clients are using the dating apps and they're
all talking about how they're missing that element of courtship.
They're missing that element of first of all, discovery, getting
to know someone. You know, You've got all this information
on an app and then you project onto it. It's like, oh,
this person likes this music. That means they must be
(19:16):
like this kind of person, and so you have all
this sin of preloaded information.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
But also there's not a lot of focus.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
On one person because people will go on a date,
they will say, oh, I had a pretty good time,
and then they go home and there's there's more notifications
on their app and they're like, what about this person?
Speaker 5 (19:32):
What about this person?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
And so it becomes more job interviewing than it does
looking for being curious about another person and seeing who
they are, and that the excitement. There's the romance of
discovering who another person is. And when you feel like, well,
I'm just looking at these profiles, it's like looking at
a lot of resumes and it feels like people are
looking at your resume and it doesn't feel like there's
(19:54):
that intangible jin say quah that's happening between the two
of you.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
It just makes it much harder.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, what are some unspoken rules or expectations that seem
to govern modern romance that might have been different in
previous generations? Are there different rules or people confused about
how to go forward?
Speaker 4 (20:13):
I think that the rules would be more helpful. So
people went through this phase where they rebelled against the rules.
There are so many books that say throw out the rules, right,
and there are certain rules you don't want to have
because they're kind of manipulative and passive aggressive. But I
think certain rules like if you're not interested in someone,
don't ghost them. Those kinds of rules, Right, People think
(20:34):
that there are no rules at all, and so then
people get very hurt.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
People don't know what to expect. People don't know what
is expected of them.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yes, someone might be interested in you, or you might
be interested in them, and you think, well, them are
supposed to wait a day?
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Am I not supposed to wait a day?
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Well, they think I'm not interested if I wait too
long or I don't wait long enough. Do I feel
pathetic and desperate to them? So you know, people don't
know what the rules are. And I think it's kind
of like what we need as an aquarium. So before
there was kind of a fish bowl. The rules were
too constrictive, and then it just became an ocean where
nobody knows what they're doing and everyone's kind of lost
(21:10):
just swimming around. And I think we need more of
an aquarium where it's These are the conventions that most
people go by, and it kind of gives you a
sense of understanding, Well, what does the person mean by that?
Or can we communicate this in this way?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, it's funny that you say that because I took
a watercolor class and the teacher was so committed to
saying that there are no rules and there's no right
way and wrong way that when somebody was asking about
three point perspective, she was just like, clearly, there is
a way to do that where it looks like you
have perspective, and yet she didn't want to say that was.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
The right way to do it.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And I was like, it's okay, you can say this
is the rule for how to like draw that way.
But I think there is this feeling like there should
be no rules, but then you don't know how to
behave properly. And I wonder, Stacy, do you think that
this is part of why fiction is satisfying because it
is a universe where you sort of understand it feels
more understandable why people are doing what they're doing, and
(22:01):
you are sort of in this place where you do
understand the rules or the universe that you're in, whereas
now it's like you're playing by your rules.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Somebody's got their own rules. It's hard to navigate.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yeah, I mean part of it is there's the rule
that it's romance, which helps constrain I mean to Laurie's
point about the fifth bowl in the ocean. Yeah, you
at least want to know that you're in water.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I was talking to a guy where he was like, oh,
I'm always friends with women. They always want to be
friends with me. But he didn't want to use dating apps.
And somebody's like, but the thing about a dating app
is you can say I'm looking for a long term
relationship and they'll know that's what you want. Because you
keep getting friend zoned. You need to tell people that
you're looking for romance exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
And part of writing romance well is being clear about
the intention, even if the person doesn't intend to fall
in love, but you know that, so you're on the
journey of discovery when they realize they're wrong, or the
person is looking for love and you're with them as
they stumble through. But it gives the reader a reason
to stay, and I think to Laurie's point, if you
(22:58):
don't have a reason to be there, you don't have
a reason in the stay. And that's where rules help. They
help give us at least guardrails help. Otherwise we're falling
off the side of bridges and you can't fear extending
the metaphor way too far for a writer, but you
do want the ability to have some not constraint on
who you are, but some guardrails so that you also
(23:20):
have guide for where you're trying to get to.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Right, well, do you think both of you tackle this?
Do you think that there is a way that fictional
portrayals of romance help people understand their own relationships or
navigate their own relationships. I mean, even if they are
somewhat idealized. But do you think it does help people
make sense of what they're experiencing or do you think
that maybe because it's idealized, does it raise their expectations
(23:45):
too high?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
So I'm gonna let Laurie tell me if I'm messing
up people's lives first, and then I'll tell you what
I think.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Okay, oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I think that people might have unrealistic expectations, but I
also think that at least they're getting so sense of
what that excitement can look like. You know, especially for
people in today's world where they don't get a lot
of romance where they can say, oh.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
You know what, I would like some of that in
my life.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I would like to be more intentional about getting some
of that in my life. And I think the other
thing that Stacy said earlier was about how we don't
want to complete another person, but another person can help
us become complete by motivating us to fill in the
gaps in our own lives. And so there's this saying
we marry our unfinished business that we definitely are a
(24:33):
You know that chemistry when we talk about romance, that
chemistry initially is often a little bit of there's something
that's kind of unfinished in you, and you kind of
see it in the other person and they kind of
see it in you, and there's this chemical explosion that
happens now coming back to reality. Then when you get together,
you have to see, well, is this the kind of
a healthy unfinished business that we can help each other
(24:55):
with and help each other grow, or is this something
where we're trying to get the other person to complete us.
But I love what fiction does, and fiction kind of
shows us the ways in which we can have a
healthy version of that.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
And I wonder sometimes if you see an unhealthy version
play out, maybe that's useful too, because you say, like, oh,
I recognize this pattern. Oh I've had that conversation myself
and let's look how it's playing out in a way
that's not good.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, well what do you think, Stacy.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah, And my novel never tell it's a it's my
serial killer romance novel. But the intention was to show
a young woman who had been in a terrible, toxic
relationship trying to find her way. She did not want
to fall in love. But there's a scene, one of
my favorite scenes to write. She is talking to another
young woman who's had a similar background and similar experience,
(25:45):
and she says something to the effect of, you know,
I can believe in you for you until you can
believe in yourself. And there's something about romance that lets
us believe that the possibility is out there, even if
we can't see it right now. It's waiting for us.
And I think the fictionalized version is a renewal system.
It says, as long as people are writing about romance,
(26:06):
as long as they are talking about what's possible, it
gives us the sense that maybe the look and the
search can go on. It's the hardship is when we
forget that we are not those characters, and we expect
the other person in the relationship to respond the way
the character did in the book. Yes, and so part
of your responsibility is to recognize that we may have
(26:26):
read the book, but the other person hasn't, and so
we've got to have some grace for that. But we
also have to remember that we're not that idealized character either.
And I think where fiction can be so helpful is
it's a mirror to who we are and are not,
but it's also a roadmap to what else we want
to be.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Do you think that that does happen sometimes where people
almost are like I'll play this character and you'll play
that character, like I'll say my lines. Now you need
to say your lines. But that's not how relationships work
in real life. And yet you can get sort of
drawn into this thinking there are sort of a play
that could be played out. I've seen that in my
own life with people, and it's just like, you're not
(27:05):
both in the same play.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Also, I think there's something to remember that our partners
will disappoint us and we will disappoint them m hm.
And so you know, I think when people have this
romantic checklist of I want all these qualities and the
person has to be like this, and they have to
know what to say, and they have to be charming
and funny and every moment. Well, first of all, I'm
not realistic. But also it's not just what is on
(27:27):
your list. I'll say to people, Okay, so that's your list.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Of what you want.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Make a list now of all the things that someone
would have to put up with to be with you.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yes, that is a great exercise.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Because then you have a little more grace for the
other person. It's that you know you also are a
human being, and you also have things that might not
be in their script of romance either.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
And yet what I think is great about romance is that.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
It transcends those things that people then say, Look, I'm
not perfect, you're not perfect. We don't hold each other
to these perfect standards. And there's some thing incredibly romantic
about and I love you deeply for all of who
you are, including that, and you know, all the other
good parts. So it's not just like with romance. I
think where people get kind of tripped up is they
(28:13):
think only the good parts are part of it. But
there's something so romantic about being loved for the entirety
of who you are, which might not fit into the
rubric of what you would maybe put on a list
of what's romantic.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
I mean, one of the things I use in my
novels is just always in the back of my head
is the line from the musical Rent you know, I've
got baggage, You've got baggage. I'm looking for baggage that
goes with mine.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Oh yes, and.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I'm misquoted, So I've got baggage. You've got baggage to anyway, Yeah,
they're the peerist who's going to be mad at me.
But the whole point is that last line, I'm looking
for baggage that goes with mine. And to Lori's point,
part of it is we've got to a knowledge our
own baggage. And I think the richest characters that I
write the books I love and go back to the
baggage of the characters is what I'm want. I want
(28:57):
to see what you've done wrong. I want to know
how I can map differently. But it also is a
reminder that it's okay that I'm a little broken and
I don't need you to fix me. I just need
you to recognize that the broken pieces are there and
that I'm still worth the investment.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I think some of the most exciting and transcendent moments
of connection, either that I've seen in novels or Intellivision shows, movies, plays,
is when there is a moment where you can see
that someone is making a choice of how to respond
and they're sort of like, are they going to respond
the way they've always responded or are they now going
(29:32):
to see that there is a possibility to make a
bigger choice and to do something with more grace and love.
And then when they do that, and yet Stacy back
to your point, is like, it has to feel earned,
it has to feel like somebody would actually do in
the moment. But when they make that choice, it does
make you feel like there is a possibility for more
love in the world. There is an opportunity for people
to make a different choice that is the more loving choice.
(29:55):
And Laurie, I imagine you see these moments in your work,
and it's just whenever you encounter them in li or
in fiction, it's like, that is what is so exciting.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
I think there's something I often say with couples, which is,
before you say something, imagine how it's going to land
on the other person. And there's something about those moments
where the person couldn't do it, couldn't do it, couldn't
do it. And then you see it happen right in
front of you, where all of a sudden they make
a different choice and they say it a different way,
and you see the result in the Parker Because we're
(30:23):
all doing this dance and so if you change your
dance steps, the other person's going to change their dance
steps too, or else are going to fall off the
dance floor or leave the dance floor. And so when
you make that twice, when you imagine what is it
going to feel like? When I say this, how's it
going to land on the other person? They're going to
have a totally different reaction to you too.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
And I'm sure you practically see like a light bulb
going on over their heads, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
I mean, that's one of the things that surprised me
most like in writing about happiness is we can't change
other people. But when I change, a relationship changes, and
when a relationship changes, the atmosphere around us changes, and
so sometimes we do change other people just by changing ourselves.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
What I like to say is we can't change other people,
but we can influence other people to change mmmmmmmmm.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Stacy, do you think that reading romance novels makes people
more loving or do you think sometimes people just read
it for just the joy of it and they it
doesn't really sink in or both Maybe I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I think it's both. I think when you read a
really good romance novel that has rich characters who have
earned their joy but who have also changed in a
way that feels authentic and accessible, it stays with you.
Because the book stays with you, that character stays with you,
and it's hard to have something living in your head
that doesn't influence who you are. So I don't think
(31:42):
it's these seismic moments, but I do think there's influence.
And for people for whom it's just a skim and move,
they're not really diving deep so that you're going to
see a lot of change. But at least during the
times they're reading, they're not out there being mean.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And Laurie, what do you think do you think that
reading romance can help people to see like a different path.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
I think there's something really hopeful about reading romance. Yes,
I think we really need a sense of hope.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
It's hopeful. That's a sollly good word for it.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
So yes, the characters are idealized and they're saying the
right things eventually, you know, as they go through their journeys.
But I also think it gives us hope that we
can change too, that we can have something different, that
if we are more aware, we can maybe have the
kind of thing that we want with a partner.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
So I find them incredibly hopeful.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Okay, last question for each of you. I always like
to ask us if they have a tried this at
home suggestion for listeners, something simple and concrete that they
could do in their everyday lives to make their lives
in this case, more romantic, to bring more romance into
their lives.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So, Stacy, do you have a suggestion?
Speaker 3 (32:46):
So I talk about the four quadrants that Dwight Eisenhewer had.
Things that are important and urgent, things that are important
but not urgent, things that are urgent but not important.
But my favorite section is the not important, not urgent.
We rarely let ourselves go there, and I think that's like,
at least once a week, make certain that you and
your partner are doing something that's not important and not
(33:07):
urgent and if you don't have a partner, do it
for yourself so that you're ready when you meet someone,
because you've given yourself this chance to decompress. You didn't
change anything, you didn't help anybody, and that was perfectly okay.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Well, and you're not marching through a to do list
or like racing around a hardware story. You just let's
just stroll down the street and exactly. And I love
it because everybody talks about the other quadrants, but nobody
talks about that quadrant.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I am a firm believer and not important and not urgent.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I love that, Lorie. How about you, Chris By?
Speaker 5 (33:37):
I love that so much. Yeah, not important, not urgent.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
I feel like I needs to be a mug yeah, yes,
and a life practice.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
I think that something that people undervalue about romance is
the sense of being delighted in by the other person. Yes,
there's that sense of this person is just delighted to
be with me, and I'm just delighted to be with
that other person. But we forget that in our daily lives.
You know, we're like going through things. You know, we
know the other person loves us, but do they delight
(34:07):
in us?
Speaker 5 (34:08):
So some things that.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
My therapy clients have found is that when they do
something that shows their delight, it's the smallest thing. You know,
I delight in the way that they laugh when this happens, right,
and you really make it clear that you delight in
that in that moment. I think just sharing how much
you delight in the other person the smallest thing. It
does not expensive, it's not a big deal.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
You don't have to plan it.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
It's just when you notice yourself delighting in your partner,
communicate that. It just changes the entire environment in the room.
And I think it's something that we don't share enough.
We might be thinking it, but we don't actually share it.
And even if you don't have a partner, when do
you delight in yourself? What are those moments when you
delight in yourself? Can you take a moment and say
(34:54):
that was delightful? I really love that about myself.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Well, I love that we're ending on the notes of
delight and not our and not important.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
That sounds so enticing.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
So thank you, Laurie, Thank you Stacy, And that is
it for this Romance Roundtable episode of Happier. Thank you
to Stacy Abraham, said Lori Gottlieb for this terrific conversation.
It was so much fun thanks to our producer Chuck
Reid and too Audible. Remember the best time to start
a happiness project is twenty years ago. The second best
time is now. Thanks for listening to the Romance Roundtable,
(35:41):
which was brought to you exclusively by Audible. Do you
love a good love story? The Audible Romance Collection has
audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you. You may
love a story about a dalliance with a duke or
perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. You may love one set in
the big city or at the hockey, or in another
(36:01):
realm with dragons. Here modern rom coms from authors like
Lily Chow, We're Mantacey series from Sarah J. Moss and
Rebecca Yarros. Regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride
and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff. Your first great
love story is free when you sign up for a
free thirty day trial at audible dot com.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Go to Audible dot com.
This special episode the Romance Roundtable is brought to you
exclusively by Audible. Do you love a good love story?
The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every
side of you. You may love a story about a
deliance with a duke, or perhaps the sexy billionaire, set
in the big city, or at the hockey rink, or
(00:21):
in another realm with dragons. Here modern rom coms from
authors like Lily Chew, romantic series from Sarah J. Moss,
and Rebecca Yarrow's Regency favorites like the new Audible original
Pride and Prejudice, plus the really Steamy stuff. Your first
great love story is free when you sign up for
a free thirty day trial at audible dot com. Hello,
(00:57):
we are here for More Happier, a podcast where we
get happier. Today's episode is a special edition in our
Roundtable Conversation series, and the topic today is romance because
for so many of us, romance is an important aspect
of a happier life, so it's a great subject for
a roundtable discussion. The three of us are here today
to talk it over. I'm Gretchen Riven, a writer who
(01:20):
studies happiness and human nature, and I'm host of the
Happier with Gretchen Rubn podcast, and here today are my
two terrific guests. First, Stacy Abrams Stacy S.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Stacey Abrams is.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
A best selling author whose romance novels, written under the
pen name Selena Montgomery. I love the idea of having
a pen name, explores themes of passion, justice, identity, and power.
Her latest book, Coded Justice, is a legal thriller that
takes on questions of technology, ethics, and accountability with romance
woven in too.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
You may also know her.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
As a nationally recognized political leader and voting rights advocate.
She served as Minority leader of the Georgia House of
Representatives and found it Fair Fight Action and other civic
organizations to expand voting access and representation.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Hello, Stacy, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Gretchen, it's so fun to have you here, and I
am also excited to be talking to Laurie gottlieb. Laur
Gottlie is a psychotherapist and New York Times best selling
author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has
sold more than three million copies. In addition to her
clinical practice, she is also co host of the popular
Dear Therapist podcast and writes the Ask the Therapist column
(02:29):
for The New York Times. Hello, Laurie, so great to
be here, Gretchen, Well, it's so fun to be here
today to talk to you too about the state of romance.
So in fiction, Stacy, that's your lane, the reality of it, Laurie,
that's your lane. And then where the two of these
meet in our daily lives. And I think we all
have some stock ideas of what romance looks like. But today,
let's talk about what romance really means today in our
(02:52):
modern lives in twenty twenty five. Let's get into it,
the mysteries and science of attraction, maintaining passion, practical suggestions for.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Making and keeping connections, and.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
What we value most these days in our most intimate lives.
And let's start what's fiction with Stacy. I am someone
who loves fiction, and I really place tremendous value on
the role of fiction in our lives. We can learn
so much about human nature by studying novels. Plus, what
is more fun than reading nothing? So, Stacy, when you
think about building romance into your stories, how do you
(03:24):
think about that element?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I always start with what's the most honest way to
connect people, Especially when you're writing suspense, which is what
I write, whether I'm writing romantic suspense or legal thrillers,
I'm already suspending disbelief about what's happening around them. People
don't get shot at this often by you know, nefarious
or party or being threatened by rogue AI. So the
(03:49):
question is if you're going to create a human relationship
that has to feel so grounded that the absurdities makes sense.
And starting there means having characters that you know well
enough to understand what do they like, what don't they like,
and what do they need? And often romance is about
finding someone who is what you need, but that you
(04:10):
are something that they need, And constructing a novel you
have to think about how do you unravel and reveal
each of those pieces and set it up so that
it happens in between you know, mayhem and torture.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, when you say what people need, what kind of
things do you think of as what people need?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So, for example, my very first romance novel, it was
a spy who basically felt responsible for the death of
people around her, including the death of the best friend
of the man she was in love with He was
angry with her, had given up his back, and he
basically abandoned his career because he could not trust. And
so she needed to find someone who understood her and
(04:50):
could help her forgive herself. And he needed someone who
could push him past his suspicions and his instinctive rejection
of the And so they had to find each other,
but they had to navigate the fact that maybe sort
of she killed his best friend, and they had to
save the world while.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
They were doing it right. So by in need, it's
very specific.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
That's so interesting that will say, it's typically a poor
need that we if we were told articulated, we could,
but it would take talking to Lori first and later
on out. But you can usually tell that with most people.
We kind of know with our friends this is a
person or this is a gap, and you don't want
someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who
(05:30):
helps you understand how to make yourself better. So I'm
also very intentional about never having the solution to a
problem be another person's, having another person help my main
character find their own solution.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Now, have you noticed a shift in what readers expect
from romance in fiction today? As opposed to like ten
years or twenty years ago. Are there's certain tropes or
themes that fall in and out of favor that you've noticed.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I mean, certainly in the early eighties early nineties, hyper
masculinity was a big part of the romance novel genre.
We've seen that hypermasculinity necessarily be reduced, in part because
it often was a cloak for non consent or for
an aggressive approach to romance that was a bit of
(06:17):
a shorthand I don't have to deal with my issues
because I could just sweep you up in an embrace
and tell you who you need to be. But I
think it's also women because I write from a woman's perspective.
It's making sure that the women who are at the
center of the novels have as much agency in who
they want to be with as they do in the
(06:37):
fact that they're going to fall in love and what
they do with their daily lives.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
And just back to sort of what you were saying
before about you want to write something that feels real
and that people can really identify with. But you're in
these tremendously heightened circumstances that most of us do not face,
and seem sort of extreme. How do you balance that
idea of the fantastical or the idealized elements in rome,
which is part of what people like in romance, and
(07:02):
also the sense of realism that people can connect with
because we want both things at the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That seems hard to manage.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Well, when I'm writing a suspense novel, my theory is
I can write something that is improbable but not impossible.
When it comes to romance, you want to write things
that are idealized but not absurd, meaning that you are
going to have the conversation instead of talking past each other,
you are going to confront this instead of pretending you
(07:30):
didn't see the note.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
It's idealized in the sense that people behave better than
they would.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
They eventually do.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
They make the mistakes, and you can't follow a journey
if there aren't detours. But I try to make certain
that you're not screaming at the book. Just do this
unless if you're screaming, it to be because you're encouraging,
not because you're frustrated and about to throw the book
across the room. And I think the fantastical elements that
tend to happen are ones where problems get automatically solved
(07:58):
or worse, where those problems aren't real and they're just
in the heads of the person that to me. And
this is back to the tropes making sure we no
longer dismiss legitimate pain or pretend that legitimate pain can
be overcome with a good kiss and a good romance.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Like a very easy resolution. You feel like that's not
satisfying anymore. That's not giving people the working through of
a problem exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They want to join you in the journey, but they
want to believe that when they leave you behind and
can't come and visit you on Thursday, that you're still
going to be okay. And if you have the sort
of sort of damocles of emotional harm hanging out there,
I'm going to be worried about you.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So now I need to know that you at least
now have the tools to navigate once I close the book.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, when you're trying to build characters that really feel
like they're related to each other, so part of it
is that need that they're fulfilling. But what else do
you do to make it feel earned and natural? Because
I almost think that this is something that people do
look to fiction as kind of a model for like
how do people have conversations or like how would you
handle that moment of engagement? Do you listen to people
(09:00):
that you over here in a coffee shop? How do
you listen so that it has that ring of truth?
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So in Coded Justice, which is a legal thriller, there
is a relationship Avery Keane, my main character, has a
boyfriend that she met the first book under very dark circumstances,
and they're still together, but there's a tension that's developing.
There are other people who might like her, and she's
got to figure out where does she sit. And so
one of the scenes in the book is a conversation
(09:25):
that she has first with her best friend. And so
I think it's important that you have a broad canvas
of people. So, yeah, so I've replicated conversations I've had
with girlfriends. Girlfriends have me where I'm like, you do
know what you've said, you do know what that is,
And so you know that conversation you have where you're
telling what happened from your point of view, yes, and
then your best friend's like, you are full of sick,
(09:47):
what did you actually think happened? So I have that
kind of scene, and then I have a scene where
they actually don't directly confront what's happening, but they both
know there's something And so I think, before you jump
to the resolution, and you owe the reader the journey
of both sides understanding there's something happening. And so I
try to make sure there are small scenes that really
(10:09):
signal we all know what we're seeing without there having
to be a lot of exposition. Because to your point
about conversation, we learn most in dialogue and writing. It's
easier to tell than it is to show, and I
try really hard to find ways to show the dynamic.
It may be a hand on the small of her back,
it may be her leaning her head against his shoulder
(10:31):
or bringing him downer, but it's something that signals that
I know something has happened. And in addition to the
big conversation we have to have, let's show the small
elements of relationship that feel familiar, so that when the
next terrible, crazy thing happens, I believe enough in you
that I'm going to trust you to come back and
make it better.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, And when you're reading and all that is so
satisfying to see those small changes happen.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's what gives it that ring of truth so interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, coming up, we're going to hear from Lori Gottlie
about the realities of modern relationships that she has observed
as a therapist and also in her own life. But
before that, I want to say thanks to our sponsor today, Audible.
Do you love a captivating love story? Are you hungry
for a romance that will transport you to another place
in time? You can find whatever you're looking for with Audible.
(11:21):
The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every
side of you. Do you enjoy a love story featuring
a duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. Do you prefer
a story set in the excitement of a big city,
in the charm of a small town, at a busy ranch,
or a bustling college campus, or maybe on a movie
(11:44):
set at the beach or by a hockey rink. Do
you seek out stories set in the distant past, in
the familiar present, or in the remote future. Or maybe
nothing on this earth satisfies your imagination and you want
to find love in another realm with dragons. Maybe you
love a story in which friends become lovers or enemies
(12:06):
become lovers. Or maybe you love a story of a
second chance or forced proximity, or a love triangle. That's
one of my favorites. I love a good love triangle.
You can find all those stories and more with Audible.
With Audible, you can hear modern rom coms from authors
like Lily Chew, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J.
(12:27):
Moss and Rebecca Yarros, regency favorites like the new Audible
original Pride and Prejudice, plus all the really steamy stuff.
When it comes to what romance you're into, you can
find anything and everything you're looking for with Audible. Audible
is the leading creator and provider of premium audio storytelling.
(12:48):
Audible excites the imagination with stories and ideas that open
you up to more possibilities. Listening can change your mood,
your life, maybe even the world. Listening gives a break
from the every day and allows you to dream bigger.
And if you've never listened on Audible before, here is
a great deal for you. Your first great love story
(13:12):
is free when you sign up for a free thirty
day trial at audible dot com.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's right, your.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
First great love story is free when you sign up
for a free thirty day trial at audible dot com.
And now let's turn to some observations and insights from Laurie,
and then we'll have a conversation with all the three
of us at the end. But first, Laurie, you deal
with people. I'm sure relationships come up all the time.
What do you think are some of the major misconceptions
about romance that people have these days? Maybe from their
(13:42):
own upbringing, maybe it's from the media, maybe it's from fiction.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Do we have any ideas that just aren't very helpful?
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is that
people think romance needs to be really big, like the
grand romantic gesture, and sometimes the most romantic thing is
the really small thing. Yeah, it's like he was saying, like,
did the person put their hand on the small of
your back when you were entering a restaurant? The little
things that they notice about you. There's such an intimacy
(14:09):
around just being noticed and understood, and so a romantic
gesture is just maybe something a little bit unexpected because
we need a little mystery to it. But that happens
to come from a grounded place and not a let's
do this huge thing, and that's going to be romantic
because it doesn't feel personal and it doesn't feel like
you're really known. So the more that the gesture includes
(14:33):
something very specific about you makes it incredibly romantic.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So you think people have this kind of idea that
you need to have this promposal Instagram grand gesture with
one hundred roses or something, whereas in fact, what really
makes people feel loved and seen is when you're like, oh,
I saw your favorite, super random flavor of ice cream
in the drug store, and so I brought some home
for you.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yes, yes, Or it's like, you know, I'm going to
make this dessert that I know you love, but it's
a surprise you coming from a day at work and
you were.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Not expecting that, and that's incredibly romantic.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So it feels it seems like it's domestic, but it's
actually romantic.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Is there anything else any other kind of big watchouts?
That's very useful to think about, both on the receiving
end and on the giving end.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I would say I think that people put too much
pressure on the need for romance, So romance comes organically.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
The best romance is something that naturally happens.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Of course, you have to be intentional about it, but
you don't want to put pressure on it. So when
they're like Valentine's Day, everybody's trying so hard to be romantic,
and most people end up saying, I had the worst
time at this restaurant with you know. It was like
this beautiful restaurant, but it didn't feel romantic at all,
you know, or the flowers or this or that. There's
(15:43):
sort of these expectations of these symbols like, yeah, it
has to be flowers or.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Jewelry or whatever.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
These symbols are of romance that don't tend to really
speak to I think what can be an elevated sense
of romance. It reminds me I had this couple and
the woman was saying to her husband, you know what
the most romantic words you could say to me? You
know what three words I would really like to hear more.
And he, of course said, I love you. I need
to say I love you more.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
She said, no, it's I understand you.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
She's like, that is so romantic when you say I
understand you. It's so intimate to be understood fully by
this person that you know that you have this chemistry with.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Well, now, when people are so busy, there's so much pressure,
there's so many demands on our time. Do you think
people give priority to their romantic relationships these days? Do
you think that is something? I mean, people are certainly
drawn to reading about romance. They love reading about romance.
Do you think that they in their own lives they're
making it a priority.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
I think they aren't making it a priority as much
as they could. I think that's why partly why Stacy's books,
which are excellent anyway, but I think that's why people
want to read about it, because they feel like, wait
a minute, I need more of that that's missing in
my life, and so I think that people need to
think more about it, but again in these smaller ways.
I love what Stacy said earlier about sort of the
(17:00):
intersection of mayhem and torture. I thought was an app
description of romance.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
So it's like you want it to be something that
feels different and exciting, but you know, like when you're
in the beginning of a relationship and it feels so
romantic because you're.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Like, will this person call me? Do they like me?
Speaker 4 (17:17):
What's going to happen next? Are we going to kiss
on this date? You know what's going to happen? Are
we going to end up in bed together? It's all
that sort of the torture of like waiting between dates,
and then there's the may have of just it takes
you out of your everyday life. So I think when
people want to focus on romancing, do you think what
would take us out of our everyday life?
Speaker 5 (17:37):
Right?
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Yes, Like it could be the simplest thing of let's
go dancing. We don't do that, like, let's just go dancing, right,
it's the simplest thing, or even things that make you
feel like doing something that does not feel like your
daily thing, like let's go to an amusement park and have.
Speaker 5 (17:51):
This scary experience on a roller coaster.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That research that shows that if a couple does something
that elevates their heart rate, they read it as emotional,
like even though it's just like, no, that's just roller coaster,
but you get to fake.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
It, right, and you're also you're in this heightened state.
And I think you know it's when you're doing an activity.
So you know a lot of people say, well.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Fighting crime exactly, you have to really.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Up the ante there.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Yeah, But I do think that some people will say Oh,
it's really romantic if we're like sitting on the couch
watching Netflix. And it can be really romantic if the
mood is right and you have the setting right. But
it's also really romantic to do something completely out of
both of your ordinary experiences, you know, like going on
the roller coasters or taking a dance class or whatever
(18:37):
it is.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Well, speaking of torture and mayhem, let's talk about the
dating apps and online interactions. How has that changed the
way people develop a romantic connection these days? Is it
making it easier to fast track to intimacy. It's kind
of a different courtship. How do you see that playing out?
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I think it's much less romantic. So so many of
my therapy clients are using the dating apps and they're
all talking about how they're missing that element of courtship.
They're missing that element of first of all, discovery, getting
to know someone. You know, You've got all this information
on an app and then you project onto it. It's like, oh,
this person likes this music. That means they must be
(19:16):
like this kind of person, and so you have all
this sin of preloaded information.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
But also there's not a lot of focus.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
On one person because people will go on a date,
they will say, oh, I had a pretty good time,
and then they go home and there's there's more notifications
on their app and they're like, what about this person?
Speaker 5 (19:32):
What about this person?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
And so it becomes more job interviewing than it does
looking for being curious about another person and seeing who
they are, and that the excitement. There's the romance of
discovering who another person is. And when you feel like, well,
I'm just looking at these profiles, it's like looking at
a lot of resumes and it feels like people are
looking at your resume and it doesn't feel like there's
(19:54):
that intangible jin say quah that's happening between the two
of you.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
It just makes it much harder.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Well, what are some unspoken rules or expectations that seem
to govern modern romance that might have been different in
previous generations? Are there different rules or people confused about
how to go forward?
Speaker 4 (20:13):
I think that the rules would be more helpful. So
people went through this phase where they rebelled against the rules.
There are so many books that say throw out the rules, right,
and there are certain rules you don't want to have
because they're kind of manipulative and passive aggressive. But I
think certain rules like if you're not interested in someone,
don't ghost them. Those kinds of rules, Right, People think
(20:34):
that there are no rules at all, and so then
people get very hurt.
Speaker 5 (20:39):
People don't know what to expect. People don't know what
is expected of them.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yes, someone might be interested in you, or you might
be interested in them, and you think, well, them are
supposed to wait a day?
Speaker 5 (20:48):
Am I not supposed to wait a day?
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Well, they think I'm not interested if I wait too
long or I don't wait long enough. Do I feel
pathetic and desperate to them? So you know, people don't
know what the rules are. And I think it's kind
of like what we need as an aquarium. So before
there was kind of a fish bowl. The rules were
too constrictive, and then it just became an ocean where
nobody knows what they're doing and everyone's kind of lost
(21:10):
just swimming around. And I think we need more of
an aquarium where it's These are the conventions that most
people go by, and it kind of gives you a
sense of understanding, Well, what does the person mean by that?
Or can we communicate this in this way?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, it's funny that you say that because I took
a watercolor class and the teacher was so committed to
saying that there are no rules and there's no right
way and wrong way that when somebody was asking about
three point perspective, she was just like, clearly, there is
a way to do that where it looks like you
have perspective, and yet she didn't want to say that was.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
The right way to do it.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And I was like, it's okay, you can say this
is the rule for how to like draw that way.
But I think there is this feeling like there should
be no rules, but then you don't know how to
behave properly. And I wonder, Stacy, do you think that
this is part of why fiction is satisfying because it
is a universe where you sort of understand it feels
more understandable why people are doing what they're doing, and
(22:01):
you are sort of in this place where you do
understand the rules or the universe that you're in, whereas
now it's like you're playing by your rules.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Somebody's got their own rules. It's hard to navigate.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yeah, I mean part of it is there's the rule
that it's romance, which helps constrain I mean to Laurie's
point about the fifth bowl in the ocean. Yeah, you
at least want to know that you're in water.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I was talking to a guy where he was like, oh,
I'm always friends with women. They always want to be
friends with me. But he didn't want to use dating apps.
And somebody's like, but the thing about a dating app
is you can say I'm looking for a long term
relationship and they'll know that's what you want. Because you
keep getting friend zoned. You need to tell people that
you're looking for romance exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
And part of writing romance well is being clear about
the intention, even if the person doesn't intend to fall
in love, but you know that, so you're on the
journey of discovery when they realize they're wrong, or the
person is looking for love and you're with them as
they stumble through. But it gives the reader a reason
to stay, and I think to Laurie's point, if you
(22:58):
don't have a reason to be there, you don't have
a reason in the stay. And that's where rules help. They
help give us at least guardrails help. Otherwise we're falling
off the side of bridges and you can't fear extending
the metaphor way too far for a writer, but you
do want the ability to have some not constraint on
who you are, but some guardrails so that you also
(23:20):
have guide for where you're trying to get to.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Right, well, do you think both of you tackle this?
Do you think that there is a way that fictional
portrayals of romance help people understand their own relationships or
navigate their own relationships. I mean, even if they are
somewhat idealized. But do you think it does help people
make sense of what they're experiencing or do you think
that maybe because it's idealized, does it raise their expectations
(23:45):
too high?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
So I'm gonna let Laurie tell me if I'm messing
up people's lives first, and then I'll tell you what
I think.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Okay, oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I think that people might have unrealistic expectations, but I
also think that at least they're getting so sense of
what that excitement can look like. You know, especially for
people in today's world where they don't get a lot
of romance where they can say, oh.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
You know what, I would like some of that in
my life.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I would like to be more intentional about getting some
of that in my life. And I think the other
thing that Stacy said earlier was about how we don't
want to complete another person, but another person can help
us become complete by motivating us to fill in the
gaps in our own lives. And so there's this saying
we marry our unfinished business that we definitely are a
(24:33):
You know that chemistry when we talk about romance, that
chemistry initially is often a little bit of there's something
that's kind of unfinished in you, and you kind of
see it in the other person and they kind of
see it in you, and there's this chemical explosion that
happens now coming back to reality. Then when you get together,
you have to see, well, is this the kind of
a healthy unfinished business that we can help each other
(24:55):
with and help each other grow, or is this something
where we're trying to get the other person to complete us.
But I love what fiction does, and fiction kind of
shows us the ways in which we can have a
healthy version of that.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
And I wonder sometimes if you see an unhealthy version
play out, maybe that's useful too, because you say, like, oh,
I recognize this pattern. Oh I've had that conversation myself
and let's look how it's playing out in a way
that's not good.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, well what do you think, Stacy.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah, And my novel never tell it's a it's my
serial killer romance novel. But the intention was to show
a young woman who had been in a terrible, toxic
relationship trying to find her way. She did not want
to fall in love. But there's a scene, one of
my favorite scenes to write. She is talking to another
young woman who's had a similar background and similar experience,
(25:45):
and she says something to the effect of, you know,
I can believe in you for you until you can
believe in yourself. And there's something about romance that lets
us believe that the possibility is out there, even if
we can't see it right now. It's waiting for us.
And I think the fictionalized version is a renewal system.
It says, as long as people are writing about romance,
(26:06):
as long as they are talking about what's possible, it
gives us the sense that maybe the look and the
search can go on. It's the hardship is when we
forget that we are not those characters, and we expect
the other person in the relationship to respond the way
the character did in the book. Yes, and so part
of your responsibility is to recognize that we may have
(26:26):
read the book, but the other person hasn't, and so
we've got to have some grace for that. But we
also have to remember that we're not that idealized character either.
And I think where fiction can be so helpful is
it's a mirror to who we are and are not,
but it's also a roadmap to what else we want
to be.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Do you think that that does happen sometimes where people
almost are like I'll play this character and you'll play
that character, like I'll say my lines. Now you need
to say your lines. But that's not how relationships work
in real life. And yet you can get sort of
drawn into this thinking there are sort of a play
that could be played out. I've seen that in my
own life with people, and it's just like, you're not
(27:05):
both in the same play.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Also, I think there's something to remember that our partners
will disappoint us and we will disappoint them m hm.
And so you know, I think when people have this
romantic checklist of I want all these qualities and the
person has to be like this, and they have to
know what to say, and they have to be charming
and funny and every moment. Well, first of all, I'm
not realistic. But also it's not just what is on
(27:27):
your list. I'll say to people, Okay, so that's your list.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Of what you want.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Make a list now of all the things that someone
would have to put up with to be with you.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yes, that is a great exercise.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Because then you have a little more grace for the
other person. It's that you know you also are a
human being, and you also have things that might not
be in their script of romance either.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
And yet what I think is great about romance is that.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
It transcends those things that people then say, Look, I'm
not perfect, you're not perfect. We don't hold each other
to these perfect standards. And there's some thing incredibly romantic
about and I love you deeply for all of who
you are, including that, and you know, all the other
good parts. So it's not just like with romance. I
think where people get kind of tripped up is they
(28:13):
think only the good parts are part of it. But
there's something so romantic about being loved for the entirety
of who you are, which might not fit into the
rubric of what you would maybe put on a list
of what's romantic.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
I mean, one of the things I use in my
novels is just always in the back of my head
is the line from the musical Rent you know, I've
got baggage, You've got baggage. I'm looking for baggage that
goes with mine.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Oh yes, and.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I'm misquoted, So I've got baggage. You've got baggage to anyway, Yeah,
they're the peerist who's going to be mad at me.
But the whole point is that last line, I'm looking
for baggage that goes with mine. And to Lori's point,
part of it is we've got to a knowledge our
own baggage. And I think the richest characters that I
write the books I love and go back to the
baggage of the characters is what I'm want. I want
(28:57):
to see what you've done wrong. I want to know
how I can map differently. But it also is a
reminder that it's okay that I'm a little broken and
I don't need you to fix me. I just need
you to recognize that the broken pieces are there and
that I'm still worth the investment.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I think some of the most exciting and transcendent moments
of connection, either that I've seen in novels or Intellivision shows, movies, plays,
is when there is a moment where you can see
that someone is making a choice of how to respond
and they're sort of like, are they going to respond
the way they've always responded or are they now going
(29:32):
to see that there is a possibility to make a
bigger choice and to do something with more grace and love.
And then when they do that, and yet Stacy back
to your point, is like, it has to feel earned,
it has to feel like somebody would actually do in
the moment. But when they make that choice, it does
make you feel like there is a possibility for more
love in the world. There is an opportunity for people
to make a different choice that is the more loving choice.
(29:55):
And Laurie, I imagine you see these moments in your work,
and it's just whenever you encounter them in li or
in fiction, it's like, that is what is so exciting.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
I think there's something I often say with couples, which is,
before you say something, imagine how it's going to land
on the other person. And there's something about those moments
where the person couldn't do it, couldn't do it, couldn't
do it. And then you see it happen right in
front of you, where all of a sudden they make
a different choice and they say it a different way,
and you see the result in the Parker Because we're
(30:23):
all doing this dance and so if you change your
dance steps, the other person's going to change their dance
steps too, or else are going to fall off the
dance floor or leave the dance floor. And so when
you make that twice, when you imagine what is it
going to feel like? When I say this, how's it
going to land on the other person? They're going to
have a totally different reaction to you too.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
And I'm sure you practically see like a light bulb
going on over their heads, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
I mean, that's one of the things that surprised me
most like in writing about happiness is we can't change
other people. But when I change, a relationship changes, and
when a relationship changes, the atmosphere around us changes, and
so sometimes we do change other people just by changing ourselves.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
What I like to say is we can't change other people,
but we can influence other people to change mmmmmmmmm.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Stacy, do you think that reading romance novels makes people
more loving or do you think sometimes people just read
it for just the joy of it and they it
doesn't really sink in or both Maybe I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I think it's both. I think when you read a
really good romance novel that has rich characters who have
earned their joy but who have also changed in a
way that feels authentic and accessible, it stays with you.
Because the book stays with you, that character stays with you,
and it's hard to have something living in your head
that doesn't influence who you are. So I don't think
(31:42):
it's these seismic moments, but I do think there's influence.
And for people for whom it's just a skim and move,
they're not really diving deep so that you're going to
see a lot of change. But at least during the
times they're reading, they're not out there being mean.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And Laurie, what do you think do you think that
reading romance can help people to see like a different path.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
I think there's something really hopeful about reading romance. Yes,
I think we really need a sense of hope.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
It's hopeful. That's a sollly good word for it.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
So yes, the characters are idealized and they're saying the
right things eventually, you know, as they go through their journeys.
But I also think it gives us hope that we
can change too, that we can have something different, that
if we are more aware, we can maybe have the
kind of thing that we want with a partner.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
So I find them incredibly hopeful.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Okay, last question for each of you. I always like
to ask us if they have a tried this at
home suggestion for listeners, something simple and concrete that they
could do in their everyday lives to make their lives
in this case, more romantic, to bring more romance into
their lives.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So, Stacy, do you have a suggestion?
Speaker 3 (32:46):
So I talk about the four quadrants that Dwight Eisenhewer had.
Things that are important and urgent, things that are important
but not urgent, things that are urgent but not important.
But my favorite section is the not important, not urgent.
We rarely let ourselves go there, and I think that's like,
at least once a week, make certain that you and
your partner are doing something that's not important and not
(33:07):
urgent and if you don't have a partner, do it
for yourself so that you're ready when you meet someone,
because you've given yourself this chance to decompress. You didn't
change anything, you didn't help anybody, and that was perfectly okay.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Well, and you're not marching through a to do list
or like racing around a hardware story. You just let's
just stroll down the street and exactly. And I love
it because everybody talks about the other quadrants, but nobody
talks about that quadrant.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I am a firm believer and not important and not urgent.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I love that, Lorie. How about you, Chris By?
Speaker 5 (33:37):
I love that so much. Yeah, not important, not urgent.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
I feel like I needs to be a mug yeah, yes,
and a life practice.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
I think that something that people undervalue about romance is
the sense of being delighted in by the other person. Yes,
there's that sense of this person is just delighted to
be with me, and I'm just delighted to be with
that other person. But we forget that in our daily lives.
You know, we're like going through things. You know, we
know the other person loves us, but do they delight
(34:07):
in us?
Speaker 5 (34:08):
So some things that.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
My therapy clients have found is that when they do
something that shows their delight, it's the smallest thing. You know,
I delight in the way that they laugh when this happens, right,
and you really make it clear that you delight in
that in that moment. I think just sharing how much
you delight in the other person the smallest thing. It
does not expensive, it's not a big deal.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
You don't have to plan it.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
It's just when you notice yourself delighting in your partner,
communicate that. It just changes the entire environment in the room.
And I think it's something that we don't share enough.
We might be thinking it, but we don't actually share it.
And even if you don't have a partner, when do
you delight in yourself? What are those moments when you
delight in yourself? Can you take a moment and say
(34:54):
that was delightful? I really love that about myself.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Well, I love that we're ending on the notes of
delight and not our and not important.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
That sounds so enticing.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
So thank you, Laurie, Thank you Stacy, And that is
it for this Romance Roundtable episode of Happier. Thank you
to Stacy Abraham, said Lori Gottlieb for this terrific conversation.
It was so much fun thanks to our producer Chuck
Reid and too Audible. Remember the best time to start
a happiness project is twenty years ago. The second best
time is now. Thanks for listening to the Romance Roundtable,
(35:41):
which was brought to you exclusively by Audible. Do you
love a good love story? The Audible Romance Collection has
audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you. You may
love a story about a dalliance with a duke or
perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. You may love one set in
the big city or at the hockey, or in another
(36:01):
realm with dragons. Here modern rom coms from authors like
Lily Chow, We're Mantacey series from Sarah J. Moss and
Rebecca Yarros. Regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride
and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff. Your first great
love story is free when you sign up for a
free thirty day trial at audible dot com.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Go to Audible dot com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.