November 11, 2025 • 38 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week, we explore the ghosts of a partner's ex-girlfriend. A woman is happy in her new relationship, except for one thing: her boyfriend insists on taking care of his ex's dog, and she has a sinking feeling that it's not just the dog her boyfriend is holding onto.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will
love just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy call Um for Ted. And
this is Deo Therapists. This week, a man cares for
his ex girlfriend's dog and his current partner is concerned
about what that means for their relationship.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person and I'm sorry to use the word hate,
but I hate her already because she is in the
middle of our relationship.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Hey, just a note before we start.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
(03:24):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hey louri, Hey guy, So I hear
this week's letter has something to do with a dog.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It does, indeed, apparently to his company, and a dog
makes it a crowd. Let me read you the letter,
Dear therapists. I started dating a guy a few months ago,
in fact, one week before strict quarantine measures. The beautiful
part about this lockdown is we talk a lot. Does
I feel like I've gotten to know him on a
deeper level more quickly than I might have otherwise. We
(04:03):
have great emotional and physical chemistry. We read together, write together,
cook together, great conversations, etc. It's been wonderful. There is, however,
an unresolved issue from his past. He takes care of
his ex girlfriend's dog whenever she's out of town. They
maintain a close friendship, but because of COVID nineteen, she's
been somewhat willingly stranded in another part of the country,
(04:23):
and he's been dog sitting for almost three months. Now.
Here's the catch. This is the same woman whom he
cheated on his ex wife with over five years ago.
As I've learned more about him and their history, I
can't seem to get past why they still maintain a
close friendship, and I get annoyed at his inability to
return the dog. He knows how I feel. I believe
the dog represents a connection he subconsciously doesn't want to
(04:45):
let go of, and that he's not giving himself time
to heal from their break up, which was only last June,
with a one night stand in October. They were friends
before he got married and lost touch, but he described
the romantic relationship as toxic. It was on again, off again.
She never wanted to commit. She is someone that his
friends and family think is bad news. He assures me
(05:05):
this person is in his past, but I know that
their relationship was intense, passion, and one in which he
was usually hurt or dumped because he didn't want it
to end. Although he believes he can still be friends
with his ex, I'm not so sure. After many serious conversations,
he is clear that the dog has to go and
has been empathetic to my feelings, but has also asked
(05:25):
me what I think he should do regarding their friendship.
He knows that I don't want to tell him what
to do because I don't want to be the source
of blame later on, but I also wanted to come
from him. Am I reading too much into my feelings
about what this dog represents? Sincerely Amy?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So it's really interesting to me guy that this is
a letter that centers around a dog, because I don't
think people realize that dogs come up so much in
therapy because of the importance that our pets play in
our lives. And then also what happens when there's a breakup,
and like having a child with somebody, what happens to
(06:05):
the animals that were involved, even tangentially in that relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Dogs are family members for most people, so it's not
a simple thing about return the dog. And also, if
it's COVID, a dog might actually be playing a important
role in this guy's life. So I'm not even sure
what the level of sacrifice that is in terms of
giving up the dog. And I think in this case,
the dog is threatening because it represents that tie that
(06:31):
this man still has to his ex girlfriend, and so
she wants that tie severed, both the dog to be
returned and perhaps the friendship even to be severed. So
this is a letter about a dog that's actually not about.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
A dog, right, He says, that he's willing to not
take care of the dog, but at the same time
he's asking her if he should maintain the friendship. It's
almost like he's abdicating responsibility for making that decision himself.
Do you let dogs come into your sessions?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I do, and I'm not that particular about why they
have to bring the dog. I just love dogs, and
so I allow dogs. Cats not so much because they
tend to open my desk and spill things, but dogs
and babies by all means, bring them on. This is
Deo Therapists. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
You're listening to Dear Therapists from iHeartRadio. So let's go
talk to Amy.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So Hi Amy, Hi Amy, Great to meet you.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Hi guy, Hi Laurie Amy.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit
more about the relationship.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
So we met at the gym and then we started talking.
So we've been seeing each other for four months now, yeah,
I'm going in five months.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And starting at the beginning of the relationship, did you
know about this X and what were those conversations?
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Like I did not know about the ex. What he
did make clear to me at the very beginning and
literally in our first conversation was he mentioned his kids, like, oh,
I have to go do something with my kids, and
so I think he wanted to make it very clear
that there was an ex wife in his life and
he had kids. But the only reason that the ex
(08:16):
came up initially was because of the dog hair in
his apartment and the dog I mean, sorry, never mind
the dog here and the dog in his apartment. I said, oh,
who's dog in this? And it was like one of
those size like, well, this is not my dog, but
this is a friend's dog. And then little by little
(08:36):
bits and pieces of information, this friend was actually more
than a friend. He's never really called her next girlfriend.
I think they've just had this on again, off again relationship.
So as time goes by, I always get little snippets
of information that come out for whatever reason.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well for whatever reason is actually important, right, he said
he needs to heal. So how much has he said
about the fact that he was truly heartbroken after this
on and off again thing was over.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
You know what, He's very open, but sometimes when we're
in a moment, we're having a glass of wine, it
reflegged on our relationship and how much he enjoys our connection.
And I think it's always like the reference is what
he's experiencing now, which he has never experienced before.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You said that he hasn't experienced this before, So you're saying,
not just in that other relationship, but he didn't experience
this kind of whatever good feelings that he's having right
now in the level of comfort and connection, he didn't
experience that in his marriage either.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Correct. Correct. Yeah, he's been very very open about that.
He's the type of person that believes in partnership. Last
night we were I was going to cook a dinner
and he had this radio show that he had to
go on and he's like, you know, just cancel the
radio show. I's like, don't cancel. You do your hour
show out while I start the cooking. And so after
he said, you know, that to me is such a
(09:59):
level of partnership, like give and take. So he always
reflects on things that he really likes about our relationship
that he never had before.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And yet there's this feeling that you have a trust
issue with him. Correct, And so tell us where that
comes from on your end with somebody who's that expressive
and actually saying all those reassuring things. Where that comes from?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
For you, Yeah, so you know the trust issue. So
he said that he in the past in order to
avoid conflict or in order to avoid an argument if
you were laid at work, but you don't avoid a
conflict you said, oh, you know, I had to pick
out something at the grocery store. Like little lies. He
used to tell a lot of little lies. And when
(10:44):
he with this X, he was unfaithful. So when someone
is open about that with you, I think you automatically
are like, you're telling me that you used to lie
a lot to avoid conflict. You were unfaithful. And he's
talked about openly working on that with a therapist. But
(11:05):
for me, it creates a sense of will this person
do it again? You know, if you I've cheated ones,
will you cheat again? You know, if you're used to lying,
how easy is that habit to break?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Have you actually expressed to him what you just expressed
to us, which is that you wonder how that's going
to play out between the two of you, and while
he's working on it individually, how the two of you
can create a line of communication that's open around that
issue so that you're not wondering whether he's lied about
(11:37):
the little things and what can happen in your relationship
that can create an environment where not only does he
not feel like he has to lie, but that you
don't feel like you have to keep checking up on him.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Yeah, it's really funny that you say that, Laurie, because
we talk about trust a lot. Let's just start with
the infidelity part. I asked him openly. I said, I
just need to ask you. Do you believe that infidelity
on any level is okay? He said, He'll go out
with some of his friends and they all take pictures
of the group of them at the restaurant and send
it to their wives so that they know that they
(12:09):
are in fact with their friends. And I said, oh,
that just doesn't fly with me. I want to be
able to trust you when you go. If you say
you are where you are, I don't want to check
up on you. I said, that is not the type
of dynamics that I would like to create. So his
answer was absolutely. I don't believe in Fidel. He that
he destroys a relationship. He's like, it's the absolute worst
(12:32):
thing you can do in a relationship, he said, because
you never regained trust. Ever, it's out the windows. So
I feel like that was an important conversation to have.
He has also said to me that in his past
there were only two very significant relationships in his life.
One was before he was married, and the other one
was this ex And he said, those two people who
(12:54):
he's had a really strong bond with, he was never
unfaithful with.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Can you tell us a little bit about your relationship history,
like what your experiences have been.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I'm thirty eight. I've had probably four relationships and they
all lasted between two and three years. When I connect
with someone, I really give it a go or give
it my all, not a really casual dater type of person.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Has infidelity been a part of your relationships never?
Speaker 4 (13:23):
I told him that if you feel like you want
to be unfaithful, we need to have that conversation and
maybe we shouldn't be in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
How long was he married?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Six years? And he's been divorced for just as long.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Has he had any other relationships since in the six
years but he's been divorced.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
He's mentioned several people that he's dated, and then inevitably
he will say that this other person has sort of
been the sort of the demise of the relationship. At
some point, like she'll come back in the picture, she reappears,
and then he doesn't give that relationship a chance. I mean,
I'm definitely the longest relationship that he's had since he's
(14:04):
been divorced.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You said that in all of the other relationships that
this other woman would appear and that would be the
demise of the relationship, because she actually has appeared in
your relationship in the form of a dog.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Absolutely, And what I said at the beginning the first
few months, I said, you know, it's really funny. I
have never met this person, but I hate her already
because she is in the middle of our relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Is the dog still there?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Yes, the X is going to be temporarily relocating to
the other part of the country, and so she has
to come back to the city to move out of
her apartment. By the end of the month, she has
to be out. So he has emphatically said that this
dog has got to go by the end of the month.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you,
that he shouldn't have this dog, But you also say
that you don't want to tell him what to do
about the friendship quote unquote correctly, this X, and I'm
struggling to understand what's the difference really. In other words,
it's a big thing to say to someone you cannot
(15:15):
keep this dog, which he's had for several months. He's
basically living alone with the dog, So he might have
his own attachment to the dog because you can get
very lonely and the dog's are wonderful company. You ask,
you know about what the dog represents. The dog represents
the ex if you feel comfortable saying to him, this
dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable saying
(15:35):
and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing and
sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in the
picture either.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You know what, I feel like the dog represents this woman,
But against you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this
dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? Or
am I just totally over analyzing the situation. Can he
have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has
mentioned that he's known for twenty something years. But I said,
(16:06):
this is not a friend. I said, I don't have
snacks with my friends like this is. This is not
a normal friend.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You know, there are times when people are friends with
their exes and it works out just fine because it
was a relationship, it ended, they transitioned in whatever way
to friendship. But the difference here is that this woman has,
as he said, led to the demise of every one
of his relationships, and that there was also a very
(16:34):
unhealthy aspect to the relationship. Yeah, and you're not able
to say to him, and I'm not comfortable with this
woman with whom you have a very complicated, unresolved sexual relationship.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, you know what, I guess. I feel like if
I say sorry, you can't do that. I don't want
him to think that he has to hide it if
he wants to be friends with her anyway, because he
thinks he can be friends with her. I've tried to
make suggestions based on what I've read, saying things like
I've read that there's things that you can do, like
(17:09):
on following on social media, but Amy, that's so indirect.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
One of the things that I think he really appreciates
about this relationship, and I think you do too, is
how open you're able to be with each other, even
though there is this underlying trust issue. Why not ask
him what this friendship means to him and why he
wants to continue this friendship and how he imagines it
will impact this relationship. Have you ever had that conversation
(17:36):
with him.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
I have. His answer has been, I am friendly with
all of my exes in the sense that I can
wish I'm a happy birthday, but I'm friends with all
of my exes. I said, here's a difference. I don't
write them on a weekly basis. I don't keep their
animals for them when they leave on a trip.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
The problem with this specific X is she comes across
like the bad friends you don't and your kids hanging
around with, because she's a bad influence. She's the one
that all of his friends think is no good. She's
the ones that whenever she comes back, he's not able
to stand for some reason her charms and ends up
sleeping with her again, even after they supposedly break up
(18:17):
from what wasn't a relationship. Then in October they sleep
with each other again. In other words, he seems to
not have a great line of defense with this lady.
And I think that's the concern that you have about her.
What happens the next time she circles around to see
what's what this is? Not about staying in touch with
an ex a next that keeps its on and it's off,
(18:37):
and it's on and it's off. And it sounds like
at her bidding a reflection on his feelings or his
inability to say no to her. Have you expressed that
to him?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
You know, I don't think I have expresses what you
just said. That maybe you're vulnerable when she comes around,
because you I know, but this sounds so funny. You
just can't control yourself. Okay, So this is something important
that I did share with him. My most significant ex,
(19:11):
who is the person that I thought I was going
to marry. We dated for three years, then he ended
up ending a relationship and he would keep in touch
and if we were traveling in the same city or
something like that, we would hook up. And it started
getting unhealthy because I always wanted to be with him,
so I started being hopeful and I would always get hurt.
(19:33):
So this went on for several years, and I realized
that this person was keeping me from meeting other people.
Mister dreamman whatever could have walked right in front of
me and I wouldn't have even seen him. So I
shared that story with him, and I told him I
need to tell you how I handled this situation because
it was one of the most difficult things that I
(19:53):
have ever done. The last time we saw each other,
which was a couple of years ago, we had a
great time, but then he started giving me the cold shoulder.
I wanted more, and I texted him and I said,
please do not ever come duck me again. And not
even five minutes had passed when I said that, and
(20:15):
I started texting him. What I meant by what I
meant by please do not was please do not write
to me in a sexual way anymore. And I started
making excuses for myself and it was like, oh, because
you didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
It was like, you said, I'm going to quit the drug. Yes, wait,
just give me a little fixed to keep in my closet.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Just didn't care.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Justin get.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I was like, oh my god, this this is like
a drug. I said, I'm done. I am done. And
we never spoke again. And I said, you have no
idea how difficult that was for me to do and
how empowering. But also I didn't realize how much it
was really hurting me.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
So how did he respond any Because yes, you like
teat it right up?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
He was like someone that wasn't over, like get over
the end with a bat. He was like, Okay, I
get it, and he'll say things like that. I guess
I want him to say, I've unfollowed her, I've deleted her,
I've done it without me giving an ultimam.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Because I think you're also afraid that he will resort
to the white nying about it, and she'll text him
and then he'll just know it's just at the grocery
store and here's a picture of me with my friends
in the restaurant.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Right right exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I think the difficulty hear is that you're asking somebody
to basically get off his drug and what I think
you're struggling with is that you feel like, well, I
can tell him to you quit the drugs, but if
he's not ready, it's still an addiction, and he's still
going to find a way to you know. And so
(21:51):
that's the conversation. It's nice that you told him about
your experience because it's very relatable, but at the same time,
it wasn't a direct request. You're almost trying to be
his therapist, like, let me give you all these resources,
I mean to all these ways.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
But but like you said in your letter, he has
to want to do it. When people are addicted to something,
there's a whole process, these stages of change and readiness,
and he may really really enjoy your relationship, but he
may also still be tied to this addiction.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
It's easy to give up the dog.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
By the way, I'm not saying that he's not going
to experience some loss giving up the dog, but she
will find a way to insinuate herself into his life.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
That's a dog or no dog.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
So I don't think he's worried that she's going to
disappear if he gives back the dog. Oh no, it's
the friendship and friendship we're using that term very loosely.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, Amy, how close has he come to admitting, one
way or the other that it is a drug, that
she is addictive, that he is vulnerable to her.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Never, I mean, I just associate the pattern the behavior.
I feel like we have these cathartic experience. Like I've said,
he does this all the time. He'll he'll really reflect
on a moment, He's like, Wow, something I love about
us and what we do. But a lot of times
he'll he'll compliment it with an explanation or comparison of
(23:24):
why that wasn't working in the other relationship. And I'm
really kind of tired of hearing it. I need this
person to just not be mentioned in this relationship again.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
No, but that is that that is the thing, right,
because if he just said, Wow, it's so great with you,
I have such a great time, I feel so great
with you. But I feel so great with you, and
I didn't feel that way with the drug. And you know,
you also are conversations, so this and this and that
conversations with the drug weren't like that. It's not nice
that I'm called into the drug, but just through reference,
(23:59):
I love it. But I can certainly understand, like, can
we just keep it about me? Please? And you say
she keeps insinuating herself, but she does. But he's doing
the insinuating of her. And I'm not sure that he's
aware of how much this is embedded in so much
text and subtext.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
But she lives inside him in so many ways. So
if he's making those comparisons, that means that a lot
of the time she's sitting there on his shoulder and
he's making those comparisons. There's so many parallels between your
relationship with your ex, your recurrent relationship with this boyfriend,
and his relationship with his drug. I think at the
(24:44):
heart of all of this is that we think that
if we give an ultimatum that somehow right, that that's
going to change the way the person feels, it might
change the way they behave. But I think the big
question is what does it mean to be loved and
what does it mean to love? And I think there's
a lot of confusion when there's that addictive aspect to
(25:06):
a relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Have you thought through how the handoff goes because he
will have to see her, had any conversations with him,
or have you thought through how that handoff of the
dog should go?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
You know, I've thought about whether I should be there,
whether I shouldn't be there. Some days I want to
be there because I want her to see me, and
then other days I think, you know what, You're a
mature adult, and if you want to be in this relationship,
I trust that you're going to handle this correctly. Yeah. Yeah,
(25:43):
I'm not really sure. To be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
When we talk about that question of his friendship with her,
does he always default to you and say what do
you think I should do or does he have any
thoughts of his own?
Speaker 4 (25:55):
What's funny is he separates the two. He says, we
didn't work as a relationship, so now we're friends. But
then when maybe if we have a discussion over the dog,
he'll say, yeah, okay, I see that is coming in
between us.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So he's never said I see this makes you really uncomfortable,
and so I'll set a boundary with this woman.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
He has, And the boundary is he doesn't reach out,
he doesn't send her photos of the dog.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
That's a boundary that she doesn't know about.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Correct, Okay, so you know what I don't know. I
know that he told her he's seen someone.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Do you know what her reaction was to his telling
her that he's sing someone?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
He said that she was happy for him, and he
has said he's like, you know what, if she met someone,
I would be happy for her.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I think part of the reason that it's hard to
trust him is because I don't know that he tells
himself the truth, because he makes these comparisons constantly around
what this relationship is like compared to what wasn't working
at the other relationship, almost as a way to help
him not go back to the drug, like to almost
(27:06):
talk himself through, Wait, this is really good, don't screw
this up.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I'm really enjoying this. Yeah, he spoke to a sister
about me and she was really excited, really happy, and
that was her reaction, like, don't mess this up, and
he got a little annoyed.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So I think the problem with this question of honesty
is that I don't know that he's ready to be
honest with himself. So it's going to be hard to
be honest with you too.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So we have some advice for you haven't yet taken
a clear stand, And in part we think because it
puts him to the test, puts his intentions and his
love for you to the test, and there's something scary
about that, and so you're hoping it will happen spontaneously.
So you're hinting you're talking about the dog rather than
about her, And we think we should put it to
(28:02):
the test in that way. You have all kinds of
good reasons for it to bother you in your history,
in terms of his history, what's going on, and so
you're fully justified in actually addressing it directly and head on.
And we also think that there's a very natural opportunity
(28:23):
for you to do so. So I'm going to pass
it on to Laurie and she'll tell you exactly what
we're suggesting.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Okay, Amy.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
One of the things that I was thinking about was
that you're thirty eight and you've been in several long
term relationships that have not worked out, and you actually
talked about almost as a positive thing, that you stay
the course you stay in there in these relationships, Right,
it's a lot of time.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
It's a lot of time, and.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So we want to make sure that you're not going
to spend two or three years in a relationship with
something that doesn't work, so that you can find out
more about that now earlier on, and if it's not
going to work, then you can find somebody who's more
pro bre it for you. And if it is going
to work, then great.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And so instead of talking about it in terms of
an ultimatum, we're talking more about what would happen if
you went to him and said, if you've had a
very on again, off again, volatile, complicated relationship with this person.
She comes up a lot in our conversations. I get
compared to her a lot. I know you have a
(29:33):
lot of feelings there still. I know you say you're friends,
but it just makes me feel like you're not as
present with me and it brings up some trust issues
with me as well. And so what I would like
for me in this relationship is for you to write
(29:54):
to her before the dog is returned and to let
her know that you're in a new relationship. You really
want to focus on that new relationship and that you
can't be in contact with her, so that she knows
that before she sees you to return the dog. And
then when the dog is returned, I would like to
(30:16):
be there so that I feel comfortable with whatever that
interaction is, because I do want to trust you, but
the truth is I don't totally trust you yet. That's
just because of your history and because I know what
it's like to have this kind of addiction to a person,
and so I would feel more comfortable being there. Now
(30:38):
you're not saying to him and then I will break
up with you if you don't do this. You're saying,
this is what I need, and I'm letting you know
what I need, and you're going to see how responsive
he is to your needs, and you'll say to him
I want you to let me know before the dog
is returned whether this is something that you've decided to
do or you've decided not to do.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Or rather, I want you to let me know before
the dog is returned whether you're willing to write that
letter and whether you can do it before the dog
is returned. Okay, so that she has the heads up,
so she understands that the receiving of her dog back
is also the ending of the friendship.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
And then Amy, the important part is you're not saying
and then I will leave. What you're saying is this
is what I need and I'm being very clear about
my needs in this relationship.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Then it is not.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
His decision, but it is your decision, Amy, about what
to do if he chooses to ignore your needs, and
you can make whatever choice you want, but I hope
that it's not going to take two years or three
years for you to make that choice.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
You would love for you to tell us about how
that conversation went, how and when he told you what
his decision was, whether he did see the letter, and
what that was like, and how the handoff of the
dog went. So a lot of different elements that we
would love to hear about all of them.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Got it? Okay?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Well, thank you Amy, thank you, thank you. Guess we're
very excited to hear how it goes, so am I okay,
we look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks so much,
Guy and Laurie appreciate it. Take care, Bye, bye bye.
So I really like talking to Amy, and I'm excited
to hear what she does. I think the one thing
(32:22):
that she's going to have to grapple with is getting
over the hump of and what if I lose the relationship,
which is hard to do, especially during COVID. But I'm
very excited to hear how that conversation goes and what
that shows her not so much about him, but about
herself and her ability to really speak up in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
And I think having the experience of doing that will
really surf are going forward, whether it's with this guy
or not.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
This is dear Therapist, and we'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench, and you're listening
to deotherapists.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So, Guy, we heard back from Amy.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Oh, let's hear what you had to say, because she
had a lot to do.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
Hi, Laurie Guy. I just wanted to follow up with
my homework. My plan was to talk with him in
person about the letter and why I felt he needed
to write it and why it was important. But I
hadn't had the opportunity to see him because of work.
And on Monday evening, the ex wrote and said, Hey,
(33:34):
I'm coming into town and I'm leaving Wednesday. He said, perfect,
will you come and get the dog on Tuesday. I'll
leave all of the dog's things by the door, and
he said, let yourself in. I didn't know that she
still had a key. I knew nothing about this yet,
but we had plans to see each other Tuesday evening.
(33:54):
So on Tuesday evening, when he came to see me,
that's when this all came to. Like Wednesday morning, I
received a text message from him and said the dog
is gone. But you're not going to believe what happened.
I thought to myself, Oh, try me, so he said.
(34:20):
Tuesday evening he went home, the dog was still there.
He contacted her and said, what happened? Why didn't you
come and get the dog? She made an excuse and said, listen,
I'm really busy. I'm trying to pack up the apartment,
and I'm leaving tomorrow morning, so I really don't have
time to come and get the dog. By now. It
was eleven o'clock at night. He said, I'm coming to
(34:40):
drop off the dog. He got in his car, went
and dropped off the dog. She basically had no plans
to come and get it. He did tell me that
he was a little concerned because he cares for the dog,
so he said, hey, what are you going to do
with the dog. She just seemed to be very disinterested
in who kept the dog or the dog's well being.
She was angry that he returned the dog, so she
(35:06):
said to him, well, you were Plan A, so now
I'm moving to Plan B. My ex husband has decided
to take the dog, and then Plan C was to
have another ex partner take the dog. I think it
(35:27):
was what he needed to hear to be like, I've
just been used. I felt like he had just a
moment of clarity. He looked relieved, like this weight was
lifted off his shoulders. I felt relieved about how everything transpired,
but I still felt like I had to talk about
the letter, and things got a little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
It was a really difficult conversation. He said, well, I
never expected this from you. I never thought that you
would be the person that would ask me to end
a friendship. I said, look, I need you to understand
why this is important to me. I feel like this
is a risk for me if you're not clear in
(36:12):
that this person is no longer a part of your life,
because I don't want to find out six months down
the road that you do, in fact want to be
with this person. He listened, he heard me out, He understood,
and he said, I understand. I'm going to write the letter.
He wrote a letter, He did it, he sent it,
and he told me that he didn't hear back from her,
and he said that if he did hear back from her,
(36:33):
he would he would let me know. So that's what happened.
So I guess we will see where this takes us.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I think this really bodes well for them because when
she went to him and told him how she felt,
even if the sequence of events didn't happen as she
had planned, when the ex girlfriend did not pick up
the dog, he made a bold move. He went and
drove the dog to her. He said, I'm not going
to take care of your dog anymore. And I thought
(37:06):
that was a real show of support for how she
was feeling. And then, of course when she asked for
the letter, he ended up sending that letter. And so
I think this is a really good start to establishing
trust around this issue.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I agree. I think this was great for Amy because
this was clearly uncomfortable for her to do. I hope
she told him that she appreciated what he did, that
it was meaningful to her because he did quite a
bunch of stuff, and she really advocated for herself. She
stood up for herself. She was clear with herself and
with him about what she needed.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
And I think that he got something out of this too,
which is he got some clarity when he saw when
he wasn't going to take the dog, that he was
just one of many who was being asked to.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Do this thing for her.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So I think there was a moment of clarity for
him that maybe he harbored this fantasy that he was
still special to her and now he was saying, wait
a minute, I'm seeing who I am to her much
more clearly.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
And how loyal she is to people, including dogs.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, I think they're both going to benefit It really
bodes well for a couple when you can go to
somebody and say here's something that I'm uncomfortable with and
that the person is responsive to you.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
It also establishes a precedent for them that when something
is uncomfortable, we're going to raise it, we're going to
talk about it, and we're going to resolve It. Is
a great precedent to take forward into a relationship. That
brings us to the end of our show for this week.
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to
our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric and Next Time on
Dear Therapists An adopted woman forms a close relationship with
her biological father, but then a DNA test reveals a
shocking surprise.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
Growing up, it was super important to me to have
the answers as to who my logical parents were, so
it was pretty devastating when the person who was supposed
to be my father wasn't my father and I had
another father there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will
love just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy call Um for Ted. And
this is Deo Therapists. This week, a man cares for
his ex girlfriend's dog and his current partner is concerned
about what that means for their relationship.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person and I'm sorry to use the word hate,
but I hate her already because she is in the
middle of our relationship.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Hey, just a note before we start.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
(03:24):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and or clarity. Hey louri, Hey guy, So I hear
this week's letter has something to do with a dog.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It does, indeed, apparently to his company, and a dog
makes it a crowd. Let me read you the letter,
Dear therapists. I started dating a guy a few months ago,
in fact, one week before strict quarantine measures. The beautiful
part about this lockdown is we talk a lot. Does
I feel like I've gotten to know him on a
deeper level more quickly than I might have otherwise. We
(04:03):
have great emotional and physical chemistry. We read together, write together,
cook together, great conversations, etc. It's been wonderful. There is, however,
an unresolved issue from his past. He takes care of
his ex girlfriend's dog whenever she's out of town. They
maintain a close friendship, but because of COVID nineteen, she's
been somewhat willingly stranded in another part of the country,
(04:23):
and he's been dog sitting for almost three months. Now.
Here's the catch. This is the same woman whom he
cheated on his ex wife with over five years ago.
As I've learned more about him and their history, I
can't seem to get past why they still maintain a
close friendship, and I get annoyed at his inability to
return the dog. He knows how I feel. I believe
the dog represents a connection he subconsciously doesn't want to
(04:45):
let go of, and that he's not giving himself time
to heal from their break up, which was only last June,
with a one night stand in October. They were friends
before he got married and lost touch, but he described
the romantic relationship as toxic. It was on again, off again.
She never wanted to commit. She is someone that his
friends and family think is bad news. He assures me
(05:05):
this person is in his past, but I know that
their relationship was intense, passion, and one in which he
was usually hurt or dumped because he didn't want it
to end. Although he believes he can still be friends
with his ex, I'm not so sure. After many serious conversations,
he is clear that the dog has to go and
has been empathetic to my feelings, but has also asked
(05:25):
me what I think he should do regarding their friendship.
He knows that I don't want to tell him what
to do because I don't want to be the source
of blame later on, but I also wanted to come
from him. Am I reading too much into my feelings
about what this dog represents? Sincerely Amy?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So it's really interesting to me guy that this is
a letter that centers around a dog, because I don't
think people realize that dogs come up so much in
therapy because of the importance that our pets play in
our lives. And then also what happens when there's a breakup,
and like having a child with somebody, what happens to
(06:05):
the animals that were involved, even tangentially in that relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Dogs are family members for most people, so it's not
a simple thing about return the dog. And also, if
it's COVID, a dog might actually be playing a important
role in this guy's life. So I'm not even sure
what the level of sacrifice that is in terms of
giving up the dog. And I think in this case,
the dog is threatening because it represents that tie that
(06:31):
this man still has to his ex girlfriend, and so
she wants that tie severed, both the dog to be
returned and perhaps the friendship even to be severed. So
this is a letter about a dog that's actually not about.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
A dog, right, He says, that he's willing to not
take care of the dog, but at the same time
he's asking her if he should maintain the friendship. It's
almost like he's abdicating responsibility for making that decision himself.
Do you let dogs come into your sessions?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I do, and I'm not that particular about why they
have to bring the dog. I just love dogs, and
so I allow dogs. Cats not so much because they
tend to open my desk and spill things, but dogs
and babies by all means, bring them on. This is
Deo Therapists. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
You're listening to Dear Therapists from iHeartRadio. So let's go
talk to Amy.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So Hi Amy, Hi Amy, Great to meet you.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Hi guy, Hi Laurie Amy.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit
more about the relationship.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
So we met at the gym and then we started talking.
So we've been seeing each other for four months now, yeah,
I'm going in five months.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And starting at the beginning of the relationship, did you
know about this X and what were those conversations?
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Like I did not know about the ex. What he
did make clear to me at the very beginning and
literally in our first conversation was he mentioned his kids, like, oh,
I have to go do something with my kids, and
so I think he wanted to make it very clear
that there was an ex wife in his life and
he had kids. But the only reason that the ex
(08:16):
came up initially was because of the dog hair in
his apartment and the dog I mean, sorry, never mind
the dog here and the dog in his apartment. I said, oh,
who's dog in this? And it was like one of
those size like, well, this is not my dog, but
this is a friend's dog. And then little by little
(08:36):
bits and pieces of information, this friend was actually more
than a friend. He's never really called her next girlfriend.
I think they've just had this on again, off again relationship.
So as time goes by, I always get little snippets
of information that come out for whatever reason.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well for whatever reason is actually important, right, he said
he needs to heal. So how much has he said
about the fact that he was truly heartbroken after this
on and off again thing was over.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
You know what, He's very open, but sometimes when we're
in a moment, we're having a glass of wine, it
reflegged on our relationship and how much he enjoys our connection.
And I think it's always like the reference is what
he's experiencing now, which he has never experienced before.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You said that he hasn't experienced this before, So you're saying,
not just in that other relationship, but he didn't experience
this kind of whatever good feelings that he's having right
now in the level of comfort and connection, he didn't
experience that in his marriage either.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Correct. Correct. Yeah, he's been very very open about that.
He's the type of person that believes in partnership. Last
night we were I was going to cook a dinner
and he had this radio show that he had to
go on and he's like, you know, just cancel the
radio show. I's like, don't cancel. You do your hour
show out while I start the cooking. And so after
he said, you know, that to me is such a
(09:59):
level of partnership, like give and take. So he always
reflects on things that he really likes about our relationship
that he never had before.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And yet there's this feeling that you have a trust
issue with him. Correct, And so tell us where that
comes from on your end with somebody who's that expressive
and actually saying all those reassuring things. Where that comes from?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
For you, Yeah, so you know the trust issue. So
he said that he in the past in order to
avoid conflict or in order to avoid an argument if
you were laid at work, but you don't avoid a
conflict you said, oh, you know, I had to pick
out something at the grocery store. Like little lies. He
used to tell a lot of little lies. And when
(10:44):
he with this X, he was unfaithful. So when someone
is open about that with you, I think you automatically
are like, you're telling me that you used to lie
a lot to avoid conflict. You were unfaithful. And he's
talked about openly working on that with a therapist. But
(11:05):
for me, it creates a sense of will this person
do it again? You know, if you I've cheated ones,
will you cheat again? You know, if you're used to lying,
how easy is that habit to break?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Have you actually expressed to him what you just expressed
to us, which is that you wonder how that's going
to play out between the two of you, and while
he's working on it individually, how the two of you
can create a line of communication that's open around that
issue so that you're not wondering whether he's lied about
(11:37):
the little things and what can happen in your relationship
that can create an environment where not only does he
not feel like he has to lie, but that you
don't feel like you have to keep checking up on him.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Yeah, it's really funny that you say that, Laurie, because
we talk about trust a lot. Let's just start with
the infidelity part. I asked him openly. I said, I
just need to ask you. Do you believe that infidelity
on any level is okay? He said, He'll go out
with some of his friends and they all take pictures
of the group of them at the restaurant and send
it to their wives so that they know that they
(12:09):
are in fact with their friends. And I said, oh,
that just doesn't fly with me. I want to be
able to trust you when you go. If you say
you are where you are, I don't want to check
up on you. I said, that is not the type
of dynamics that I would like to create. So his
answer was absolutely. I don't believe in Fidel. He that
he destroys a relationship. He's like, it's the absolute worst
(12:32):
thing you can do in a relationship, he said, because
you never regained trust. Ever, it's out the windows. So
I feel like that was an important conversation to have.
He has also said to me that in his past
there were only two very significant relationships in his life.
One was before he was married, and the other one
was this ex And he said, those two people who
(12:54):
he's had a really strong bond with, he was never
unfaithful with.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Can you tell us a little bit about your relationship history,
like what your experiences have been.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
I'm thirty eight. I've had probably four relationships and they
all lasted between two and three years. When I connect
with someone, I really give it a go or give
it my all, not a really casual dater type of person.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Has infidelity been a part of your relationships never?
Speaker 4 (13:23):
I told him that if you feel like you want
to be unfaithful, we need to have that conversation and
maybe we shouldn't be in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
How long was he married?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Six years? And he's been divorced for just as long.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Has he had any other relationships since in the six
years but he's been divorced.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
He's mentioned several people that he's dated, and then inevitably
he will say that this other person has sort of
been the sort of the demise of the relationship. At
some point, like she'll come back in the picture, she reappears,
and then he doesn't give that relationship a chance. I mean,
I'm definitely the longest relationship that he's had since he's
(14:04):
been divorced.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You said that in all of the other relationships that
this other woman would appear and that would be the
demise of the relationship, because she actually has appeared in
your relationship in the form of a dog.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Absolutely, And what I said at the beginning the first
few months, I said, you know, it's really funny. I
have never met this person, but I hate her already
because she is in the middle of our relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Is the dog still there?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Yes, the X is going to be temporarily relocating to
the other part of the country, and so she has
to come back to the city to move out of
her apartment. By the end of the month, she has
to be out. So he has emphatically said that this
dog has got to go by the end of the month.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you,
that he shouldn't have this dog, But you also say
that you don't want to tell him what to do
about the friendship quote unquote correctly, this X, and I'm
struggling to understand what's the difference really. In other words,
it's a big thing to say to someone you cannot
(15:15):
keep this dog, which he's had for several months. He's
basically living alone with the dog, So he might have
his own attachment to the dog because you can get
very lonely and the dog's are wonderful company. You ask,
you know about what the dog represents. The dog represents
the ex if you feel comfortable saying to him, this
dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable saying
(15:35):
and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing and
sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in the
picture either.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You know what, I feel like the dog represents this woman,
But against you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this
dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? Or
am I just totally over analyzing the situation. Can he
have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has
mentioned that he's known for twenty something years. But I said,
(16:06):
this is not a friend. I said, I don't have
snacks with my friends like this is. This is not
a normal friend.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You know, there are times when people are friends with
their exes and it works out just fine because it
was a relationship, it ended, they transitioned in whatever way
to friendship. But the difference here is that this woman has,
as he said, led to the demise of every one
of his relationships, and that there was also a very
(16:34):
unhealthy aspect to the relationship. Yeah, and you're not able
to say to him, and I'm not comfortable with this
woman with whom you have a very complicated, unresolved sexual relationship.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, you know what, I guess. I feel like if
I say sorry, you can't do that. I don't want
him to think that he has to hide it if
he wants to be friends with her anyway, because he
thinks he can be friends with her. I've tried to
make suggestions based on what I've read, saying things like
I've read that there's things that you can do, like
(17:09):
on following on social media, but Amy, that's so indirect.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
One of the things that I think he really appreciates
about this relationship, and I think you do too, is
how open you're able to be with each other, even
though there is this underlying trust issue. Why not ask
him what this friendship means to him and why he
wants to continue this friendship and how he imagines it
will impact this relationship. Have you ever had that conversation
(17:36):
with him.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
I have. His answer has been, I am friendly with
all of my exes in the sense that I can
wish I'm a happy birthday, but I'm friends with all
of my exes. I said, here's a difference. I don't
write them on a weekly basis. I don't keep their
animals for them when they leave on a trip.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
The problem with this specific X is she comes across
like the bad friends you don't and your kids hanging
around with, because she's a bad influence. She's the one
that all of his friends think is no good. She's
the ones that whenever she comes back, he's not able
to stand for some reason her charms and ends up
sleeping with her again, even after they supposedly break up
(18:17):
from what wasn't a relationship. Then in October they sleep
with each other again. In other words, he seems to
not have a great line of defense with this lady.
And I think that's the concern that you have about her.
What happens the next time she circles around to see
what's what this is? Not about staying in touch with
an ex a next that keeps its on and it's off,
(18:37):
and it's on and it's off. And it sounds like
at her bidding a reflection on his feelings or his
inability to say no to her. Have you expressed that
to him?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
You know, I don't think I have expresses what you
just said. That maybe you're vulnerable when she comes around,
because you I know, but this sounds so funny. You
just can't control yourself. Okay, So this is something important
that I did share with him. My most significant ex,
(19:11):
who is the person that I thought I was going
to marry. We dated for three years, then he ended
up ending a relationship and he would keep in touch
and if we were traveling in the same city or
something like that, we would hook up. And it started
getting unhealthy because I always wanted to be with him,
so I started being hopeful and I would always get hurt.
(19:33):
So this went on for several years, and I realized
that this person was keeping me from meeting other people.
Mister dreamman whatever could have walked right in front of
me and I wouldn't have even seen him. So I
shared that story with him, and I told him I
need to tell you how I handled this situation because
it was one of the most difficult things that I
(19:53):
have ever done. The last time we saw each other,
which was a couple of years ago, we had a
great time, but then he started giving me the cold shoulder.
I wanted more, and I texted him and I said,
please do not ever come duck me again. And not
even five minutes had passed when I said that, and
(20:15):
I started texting him. What I meant by what I
meant by please do not was please do not write
to me in a sexual way anymore. And I started
making excuses for myself and it was like, oh, because
you didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
It was like, you said, I'm going to quit the drug. Yes, wait,
just give me a little fixed to keep in my closet.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Just didn't care.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Justin get.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I was like, oh my god, this this is like
a drug. I said, I'm done. I am done. And
we never spoke again. And I said, you have no
idea how difficult that was for me to do and
how empowering. But also I didn't realize how much it
was really hurting me.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
So how did he respond any Because yes, you like
teat it right up?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
He was like someone that wasn't over, like get over
the end with a bat. He was like, Okay, I
get it, and he'll say things like that. I guess
I want him to say, I've unfollowed her, I've deleted her,
I've done it without me giving an ultimam.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Because I think you're also afraid that he will resort
to the white nying about it, and she'll text him
and then he'll just know it's just at the grocery
store and here's a picture of me with my friends
in the restaurant.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Right right exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I think the difficulty hear is that you're asking somebody
to basically get off his drug and what I think
you're struggling with is that you feel like, well, I
can tell him to you quit the drugs, but if
he's not ready, it's still an addiction, and he's still
going to find a way to you know. And so
(21:51):
that's the conversation. It's nice that you told him about
your experience because it's very relatable, but at the same time,
it wasn't a direct request. You're almost trying to be
his therapist, like, let me give you all these resources,
I mean to all these ways.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
But but like you said in your letter, he has
to want to do it. When people are addicted to something,
there's a whole process, these stages of change and readiness,
and he may really really enjoy your relationship, but he
may also still be tied to this addiction.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
It's easy to give up the dog.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
By the way, I'm not saying that he's not going
to experience some loss giving up the dog, but she
will find a way to insinuate herself into his life.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
That's a dog or no dog.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
So I don't think he's worried that she's going to
disappear if he gives back the dog. Oh no, it's
the friendship and friendship we're using that term very loosely.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, Amy, how close has he come to admitting, one
way or the other that it is a drug, that
she is addictive, that he is vulnerable to her.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Never, I mean, I just associate the pattern the behavior.
I feel like we have these cathartic experience. Like I've said,
he does this all the time. He'll he'll really reflect
on a moment, He's like, Wow, something I love about
us and what we do. But a lot of times
he'll he'll compliment it with an explanation or comparison of
(23:24):
why that wasn't working in the other relationship. And I'm
really kind of tired of hearing it. I need this
person to just not be mentioned in this relationship again.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
No, but that is that that is the thing, right,
because if he just said, Wow, it's so great with you,
I have such a great time, I feel so great
with you. But I feel so great with you, and
I didn't feel that way with the drug. And you know,
you also are conversations, so this and this and that
conversations with the drug weren't like that. It's not nice
that I'm called into the drug, but just through reference,
(23:59):
I love it. But I can certainly understand, like, can
we just keep it about me? Please? And you say
she keeps insinuating herself, but she does. But he's doing
the insinuating of her. And I'm not sure that he's
aware of how much this is embedded in so much
text and subtext.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
But she lives inside him in so many ways. So
if he's making those comparisons, that means that a lot
of the time she's sitting there on his shoulder and
he's making those comparisons. There's so many parallels between your
relationship with your ex, your recurrent relationship with this boyfriend,
and his relationship with his drug. I think at the
(24:44):
heart of all of this is that we think that
if we give an ultimatum that somehow right, that that's
going to change the way the person feels, it might
change the way they behave. But I think the big
question is what does it mean to be loved and
what does it mean to love? And I think there's
a lot of confusion when there's that addictive aspect to
(25:06):
a relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Have you thought through how the handoff goes because he
will have to see her, had any conversations with him,
or have you thought through how that handoff of the
dog should go?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
You know, I've thought about whether I should be there,
whether I shouldn't be there. Some days I want to
be there because I want her to see me, and
then other days I think, you know what, You're a
mature adult, and if you want to be in this relationship,
I trust that you're going to handle this correctly. Yeah. Yeah,
(25:43):
I'm not really sure. To be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
When we talk about that question of his friendship with her,
does he always default to you and say what do
you think I should do or does he have any
thoughts of his own?
Speaker 4 (25:55):
What's funny is he separates the two. He says, we
didn't work as a relationship, so now we're friends. But
then when maybe if we have a discussion over the dog,
he'll say, yeah, okay, I see that is coming in
between us.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So he's never said I see this makes you really uncomfortable,
and so I'll set a boundary with this woman.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
He has, And the boundary is he doesn't reach out,
he doesn't send her photos of the dog.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
That's a boundary that she doesn't know about.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Correct, Okay, so you know what I don't know. I
know that he told her he's seen someone.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Do you know what her reaction was to his telling
her that he's sing someone?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
He said that she was happy for him, and he
has said he's like, you know what, if she met someone,
I would be happy for her.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I think part of the reason that it's hard to
trust him is because I don't know that he tells
himself the truth, because he makes these comparisons constantly around
what this relationship is like compared to what wasn't working
at the other relationship, almost as a way to help
him not go back to the drug, like to almost
(27:06):
talk himself through, Wait, this is really good, don't screw
this up.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I'm really enjoying this. Yeah, he spoke to a sister
about me and she was really excited, really happy, and
that was her reaction, like, don't mess this up, and
he got a little annoyed.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So I think the problem with this question of honesty
is that I don't know that he's ready to be
honest with himself. So it's going to be hard to
be honest with you too.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So we have some advice for you haven't yet taken
a clear stand, And in part we think because it
puts him to the test, puts his intentions and his
love for you to the test, and there's something scary
about that, and so you're hoping it will happen spontaneously.
So you're hinting you're talking about the dog rather than
about her, And we think we should put it to
(28:02):
the test in that way. You have all kinds of
good reasons for it to bother you in your history,
in terms of his history, what's going on, and so
you're fully justified in actually addressing it directly and head on.
And we also think that there's a very natural opportunity
(28:23):
for you to do so. So I'm going to pass
it on to Laurie and she'll tell you exactly what
we're suggesting.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Okay, Amy.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
One of the things that I was thinking about was
that you're thirty eight and you've been in several long
term relationships that have not worked out, and you actually
talked about almost as a positive thing, that you stay
the course you stay in there in these relationships, Right,
it's a lot of time.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
It's a lot of time, and.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So we want to make sure that you're not going
to spend two or three years in a relationship with
something that doesn't work, so that you can find out
more about that now earlier on, and if it's not
going to work, then you can find somebody who's more
pro bre it for you. And if it is going
to work, then great.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And so instead of talking about it in terms of
an ultimatum, we're talking more about what would happen if
you went to him and said, if you've had a
very on again, off again, volatile, complicated relationship with this person.
She comes up a lot in our conversations. I get
compared to her a lot. I know you have a
(29:33):
lot of feelings there still. I know you say you're friends,
but it just makes me feel like you're not as
present with me and it brings up some trust issues
with me as well. And so what I would like
for me in this relationship is for you to write
(29:54):
to her before the dog is returned and to let
her know that you're in a new relationship. You really
want to focus on that new relationship and that you
can't be in contact with her, so that she knows
that before she sees you to return the dog. And
then when the dog is returned, I would like to
(30:16):
be there so that I feel comfortable with whatever that
interaction is, because I do want to trust you, but
the truth is I don't totally trust you yet. That's
just because of your history and because I know what
it's like to have this kind of addiction to a person,
and so I would feel more comfortable being there. Now
(30:38):
you're not saying to him and then I will break
up with you if you don't do this. You're saying,
this is what I need, and I'm letting you know
what I need, and you're going to see how responsive
he is to your needs, and you'll say to him
I want you to let me know before the dog
is returned whether this is something that you've decided to
do or you've decided not to do.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Or rather, I want you to let me know before
the dog is returned whether you're willing to write that
letter and whether you can do it before the dog
is returned. Okay, so that she has the heads up,
so she understands that the receiving of her dog back
is also the ending of the friendship.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
And then Amy, the important part is you're not saying
and then I will leave. What you're saying is this
is what I need and I'm being very clear about
my needs in this relationship.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Then it is not.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
His decision, but it is your decision, Amy, about what
to do if he chooses to ignore your needs, and
you can make whatever choice you want, but I hope
that it's not going to take two years or three
years for you to make that choice.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
You would love for you to tell us about how
that conversation went, how and when he told you what
his decision was, whether he did see the letter, and
what that was like, and how the handoff of the
dog went. So a lot of different elements that we
would love to hear about all of them.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Got it? Okay?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Well, thank you Amy, thank you, thank you. Guess we're
very excited to hear how it goes, so am I okay,
we look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks so much,
Guy and Laurie appreciate it. Take care, Bye, bye bye.
So I really like talking to Amy, and I'm excited
to hear what she does. I think the one thing
(32:22):
that she's going to have to grapple with is getting
over the hump of and what if I lose the relationship,
which is hard to do, especially during COVID. But I'm
very excited to hear how that conversation goes and what
that shows her not so much about him, but about
herself and her ability to really speak up in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
And I think having the experience of doing that will
really surf are going forward, whether it's with this guy
or not.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
This is dear Therapist, and we'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench, and you're listening
to deotherapists.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So, Guy, we heard back from Amy.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Oh, let's hear what you had to say, because she
had a lot to do.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
Hi, Laurie Guy. I just wanted to follow up with
my homework. My plan was to talk with him in
person about the letter and why I felt he needed
to write it and why it was important. But I
hadn't had the opportunity to see him because of work.
And on Monday evening, the ex wrote and said, Hey,
(33:34):
I'm coming into town and I'm leaving Wednesday. He said, perfect,
will you come and get the dog on Tuesday. I'll
leave all of the dog's things by the door, and
he said, let yourself in. I didn't know that she
still had a key. I knew nothing about this yet,
but we had plans to see each other Tuesday evening.
(33:54):
So on Tuesday evening, when he came to see me,
that's when this all came to. Like Wednesday morning, I
received a text message from him and said the dog
is gone. But you're not going to believe what happened.
I thought to myself, Oh, try me, so he said.
(34:20):
Tuesday evening he went home, the dog was still there.
He contacted her and said, what happened? Why didn't you
come and get the dog? She made an excuse and said, listen,
I'm really busy. I'm trying to pack up the apartment,
and I'm leaving tomorrow morning, so I really don't have
time to come and get the dog. By now. It
was eleven o'clock at night. He said, I'm coming to
(34:40):
drop off the dog. He got in his car, went
and dropped off the dog. She basically had no plans
to come and get it. He did tell me that
he was a little concerned because he cares for the dog,
so he said, hey, what are you going to do
with the dog. She just seemed to be very disinterested
in who kept the dog or the dog's well being.
She was angry that he returned the dog, so she
(35:06):
said to him, well, you were Plan A, so now
I'm moving to Plan B. My ex husband has decided
to take the dog, and then Plan C was to
have another ex partner take the dog. I think it
(35:27):
was what he needed to hear to be like, I've
just been used. I felt like he had just a
moment of clarity. He looked relieved, like this weight was
lifted off his shoulders. I felt relieved about how everything transpired,
but I still felt like I had to talk about
the letter, and things got a little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
It was a really difficult conversation. He said, well, I
never expected this from you. I never thought that you
would be the person that would ask me to end
a friendship. I said, look, I need you to understand
why this is important to me. I feel like this
is a risk for me if you're not clear in
(36:12):
that this person is no longer a part of your life,
because I don't want to find out six months down
the road that you do, in fact want to be
with this person. He listened, he heard me out, He understood,
and he said, I understand. I'm going to write the letter.
He wrote a letter, He did it, he sent it,
and he told me that he didn't hear back from her,
and he said that if he did hear back from her,
(36:33):
he would he would let me know. So that's what happened.
So I guess we will see where this takes us.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I think this really bodes well for them because when
she went to him and told him how she felt,
even if the sequence of events didn't happen as she
had planned, when the ex girlfriend did not pick up
the dog, he made a bold move. He went and
drove the dog to her. He said, I'm not going
to take care of your dog anymore. And I thought
(37:06):
that was a real show of support for how she
was feeling. And then, of course when she asked for
the letter, he ended up sending that letter. And so
I think this is a really good start to establishing
trust around this issue.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I agree. I think this was great for Amy because
this was clearly uncomfortable for her to do. I hope
she told him that she appreciated what he did, that
it was meaningful to her because he did quite a
bunch of stuff, and she really advocated for herself. She
stood up for herself. She was clear with herself and
with him about what she needed.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
And I think that he got something out of this too,
which is he got some clarity when he saw when
he wasn't going to take the dog, that he was
just one of many who was being asked to.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Do this thing for her.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
So I think there was a moment of clarity for
him that maybe he harbored this fantasy that he was
still special to her and now he was saying, wait
a minute, I'm seeing who I am to her much
more clearly.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
And how loyal she is to people, including dogs.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, I think they're both going to benefit It really
bodes well for a couple when you can go to
somebody and say here's something that I'm uncomfortable with and
that the person is responsive to you.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
It also establishes a precedent for them that when something
is uncomfortable, we're going to raise it, we're going to
talk about it, and we're going to resolve It. Is
a great precedent to take forward into a relationship. That
brings us to the end of our show for this week.
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to
our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric and Next Time on
Dear Therapists An adopted woman forms a close relationship with
her biological father, but then a DNA test reveals a
shocking surprise.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
Growing up, it was super important to me to have
the answers as to who my logical parents were, so
it was pretty devastating when the person who was supposed
to be my father wasn't my father and I had
another father there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
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