July 9, 2024 • 37 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week, we explore the ghosts of a partner's ex-girlfriend. A woman is happy in her new relationship, except for one thing: her boyfriend insists on taking care of his ex's dog, and she has a sinking feeling that it's not just the dog her boyfriend is holding onto.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for The Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy called Him for Ted And this is der Therapists.
This week, a man cares for his ex girlfriend's dog
and his current partner is concerned about what that means
(00:25):
for their relationship. I said, you know, it's really funny.
I have never met this person, and I I'm sorry
to use the word hate, but I hate her already
because she is in the middle of our relationship. Listen
in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process. Hey,
just a note before we start. Dear Therapist is for
(00:47):
informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is
not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you
are agreeing to let i Heeart Media use it in
(01:08):
part or and full, and we may edit it for
length and or clarity. Hey Laurie, Hey guy. So I
hear this week's letter has something to do with a dog.
It does, indeed, apparently to his company, and a dog
makes it a crowd. Let me read you the letter,
Dear therapists. I started dating a guy a few months ago,
(01:32):
in fact, one week before strict quarantine measures. The beautiful
part about this lockdown is we talk a lot. Does
I feel like I've gotten to know him on a
deeper level more quickly than I might have otherwise. We
have great emotional and physical chemistry. We read together, right together,
cooked together, great conversations, etcetera. It's been wonderful. There is, however,
(01:53):
an unresolved issue from his past. He takes care of
his ex girlfriend's dog whenever she's out of town. They
maintain a close friendship, but because of COVID nineteen, she's
been somewhat willingly stranded in another part of the country,
and he's been dog sitting formost three months. Now. Here's
the catch. This is the same woman whom he cheated
on his ex wife with over five years ago. As
(02:13):
I've learned more about him in their history, I can't
seem to get past why they still maintain a close friendship,
and I get annoyed at his inability to return the dog.
He knows how I feel. I believe the dog represents
a connection he subconsciously doesn't want to let go of,
and that he's not giving himself time to heal from
their breakup, which was only last June, with a one
night stand in October. They were friends before he got
(02:35):
married and lost touch, but he described the romantic relationship
as toxic. It was on again, off again. She never
wanted to commit. She is someone that his friends and
family think is bad news. He assures me this person
is in his past, but I know that their relationship
was intense, passionate, and one in which he was usually
hurt or dumped because he didn't want it to end.
(02:56):
Although he believes he can still be friends with his ex,
I'm not so sure. After many serious conversations, he is
clear that the dog has to go and has been
empathetic to my feelings, but has also asked me what
I think he should do regarding their friendship. He knows
that I don't want to tell him what to do
because I don't want to be the source of blame
later on, but I also wanted to come from him.
Am I'm reading too much into my feelings about what
(03:18):
this dog represents, Sincerely, Amy. So it's really interesting to
me guy that this is a letter that centers around
a dog, because I don't think people realize that dogs
come up so much in therapy because of the importance
that our pets play in our lives. And then also
(03:39):
what happens when there's a breakup, and like having a
child with somebody, what happens to the animals that were involved,
even tangentially in that relationship. Dogs are family members for
most people, so it's not a simple thing about return
the dog. And also, if it's COVID, dog might actually
(04:00):
be playing a important role in this guy's life. So
I'm not even sure what the level of sacrifice that
is in terms of giving up the dog. And I
think in this case, the dog is threatening because it
represents that tie that this man still has to his
ex girlfriend, and so she wants that tie severed, both
the dog to be returned and perhaps the friendship even
to be severed. So this is a letter about a
(04:21):
dog that's actually not about a dog. Right. He says
that he's willing to not take care of the dog
but at the same time he's asking her if he
should maintain the friendship. It's almost like he's abdicating responsibility
for making that decision himself. Juvlate, dogs come into your sessions.
I do, and I'm not that particular about why they
(04:44):
have to bring the dog. I just love dogs, and
so I allow dogs. Cats not so much because they
tend to walk on my desk and spill things. But
but dogs and babies by all means, bring them on.
This is the atherapists. Thanks for listening. You're listening to
(05:10):
dear therapist from my Heart Radio. So let's go talk
to Amy. So Hi Amy, Hi Amy, Great to meet you.
Hi guys, Hi Lori Amy. I'm wondering if you could
tell us a little bit more about the relationship. So
we met at the gym and then we started talking.
So we've been seeing each other for four months now, yeah,
I'm going in five months and starting at the beginning
(05:33):
of the relationship, did you know about this X and
what were those conversations? Like, I did not know about
the X. What he did make clear to me at
the very beginning and literally in our first conversation was
he mentioned his kids, Like, oh, I have to go
do something with my kids, and and so I think
he wanted to make it very clear. But there was
an ex wife and in his life, and he had kids.
(05:55):
But the only reason that the X came up initially
was because is of the dog hair in his apartment
and the dog I mean, sorry, never mind the dog
here in his apartment. I said, who's who's dog in this?
And it was like one of those sizes like, well,
this is not my dog, but this is a friend's dog.
(06:16):
And then little by little bits and pieces of information,
this friend was actually more than a friend. He's never
really called her next girlfriend. I think they've just had
this on again, off again relationship. So as time goes by,
I always get little snippets of information that come out
for whatever reason. Well for whatever reason is actually important, right,
(06:39):
he said he needs to heal. So how much as
he said about the fact that he was truly heartbroken
after this on and again off again thing was over.
You know what, He's very open. But sometimes when we're
in a moment, we're having a glass of wine and
reflect on our relationship and how much he enjoys our connection.
And I think it's always like the reference is what
(07:01):
he's experiencing now, which he has never experienced before. You
said that he hasn't experienced this before, So you're saying,
not just in that other relationship, but he didn't experience
this kind of whatever good feelings that he's having right
now and the level of comfort and connection. He didn't
experience that in his marriage either. Correct. Correct. Yeah, he's
(07:22):
he's been very very open about that. He's the type
of person that believes in partnership. Last night we were
I was going to cook at dinner and he had
this radio show that he had to go on and
he's like, you know, I'll just cancel the radio shows, Like,
don't cancel you, you do your hour show up while
I start the cooking. And so after he said, you
know that to me is such a level of partnership,
(07:42):
like give and take. So he always reflects on things
that he really likes about our relationship that he never
had before. And yet there's this feeling that you have
a trust issue with. Correct, And so tell us where
that comes from on your end with somebody who is
that expressive and and actually saying all those reassuring things.
(08:04):
Where that comes from for you? Yeah? So you know
the trust issue. So he said that he in the
past in order to avoid conflict or in order to
avoid an argument if you were late at work, but
you don't avoid of conflict you said, oh, you know,
I had to because something of the grocery store, like
little lies. He used to tell a lot of little lies.
(08:24):
And when he with with this X, he was unfaithful.
So when someone is open about that with you, I
think you automatically you're like, you're telling me that you
used to lie a lot to avoid conflict, you were unfaithful.
And he's talked about openly working on that with a therapist.
(08:46):
But for me, it creates a sense of will this
person do it again? You know, if you've cheated once,
will you cheat again? You know, if you're used to line,
how how easy is that habit to break? Have you
actually expressed to him what you just expressed to us,
which is that you wonder how that's going to play
out between the two of you, and while he's working
(09:06):
on it individually, how the two of you can create
a line of communication that's open around that issue so
that you're not wondering whether he's lied about the little
things and what can happen in your relationship. That can
create an environment where not only does he not feel
like he has to lie, but that you don't feel
like you have to keep checking up on him. Yeah,
(09:29):
it's really funny that you say that, Lawer, because we
talk about trust a lot. Let's just start with the
infidelity part. I I asked him openly. I said, I
just need to ask you. Do you believe the infidelity
on any levels? Okay? He said, He'll go out with
some of his friends and they all take pictures of
the group of them at the restaurant and send into
their wives so that they know that they are in
(09:51):
fact with their friends. And I said, oh, that that
just doesn't fly with me. I want to be able
to trust you when you go. If you say you
are where you are, I don't want to check up
on you. I said, that is not the type of
dynamics that I would like to create. So his answer
was absolutely, I don't believe in infidelity that he destroys
(10:11):
a relationship. He's like, it's the absolute worst thing you
can do in a relationship, he said, because you never
regained trust. Ever, it's out the window. So I felt
like that was an important conversation to have. He has
also said to me that in his past there were
only two very significant relationships in his life. One was
was before he was married, and the other one was
(10:32):
this X. And he said, those two people who he's
had a really strong bond with, he was never unfaithful with.
Can you tell us a little bit about your relationship history,
like what, I'm thirty eight. I've had probably four relationships
and they all lasted between two and two and three years.
When I connect with someone, I'm I really give it
(10:55):
a go or give it my all, not a really
casual dater type of person. Has infidelity been a part
of your relationships? Never? I told him, if you feel
like you want to be unfaithful, we need to have
that conversation and maybe we shouldn't be in a relationship.
How long was he married? Six years? And he's been
(11:17):
divorced for just as long has he had any other
relationships since in the six years but he's been divorced.
He's mentioned several people that he's dated, and then inevitably
he will say that this other person has sort of
been the sort of the demise of the relationship at
some point, like she'll come back in the picture. She reappears,
(11:39):
and then he doesn't give that relationship a chance. I mean,
I'm definitely the longest relationship that he's had since he's
been divorced. You said that in all of the other
relationships that this other woman would appear and that would
be the demise of the relationship, because she actually has
appeared in your relationship in the form of a dog. Absolutely.
(11:59):
And I said at the beginning the first few months,
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person, but I hate her already because she
is in the middle of our relationship. Is the dog
still there? Yes, the X is going to be temporarily
relocating to the other part of the country, and so
(12:21):
she has to come back to the city to move
out of her apartment. By the end of the month,
she has to be out. So he has emphatically said
that this dog has got to go by the end
of the month. You are very clear with him that
the dog bothers you, that he shouldn't have this dog.
(12:42):
But you also say that you don't want to tell
him what to do about the friendship quote unquote with
this X. And I'm struggling to understand what's the difference really.
In other words, it's a big thing to say to
someone you cannot keep this dog, which she's had for
several months. He's they to be living alone with the dog,
so he might have his own attachment to the dog.
(13:04):
Because you can get very lonely. Dogs are wonderful company
to ask you about what the dog represents. The dog
represents the X if you feel comfortable saying to him,
this dog shouldn't be here. Why don't you feel comfortable
saying and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing
and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in
the picture either, you know what I um? I feel
(13:30):
like the dog represents this woman, But against you doubt yourself,
I think, okay, does this dog represent the woman? Is
this dog a connection? Or am I just totally over
analyzing the situation. Can he have a friendship with this person?
I mean, he has mentioned that he's known for twenty
cething years. But I said, this is not a friend.
I said, I don't have sex with my friends like
(13:51):
this is. This is not a normal friend. You know,
there are times when people are friends with their exes
and it works out just fine. Because it was relationship,
it ended, they transitioned in whatever way to friendship. But
the difference here is that this woman has, as he said,
led to the demise of every one of his relationships,
(14:12):
and that there was also a very unhealthy aspect to
the relationship. Yeah, and you're not able to say to him,
and I'm not comfortable with this woman with whom you
have a very complicated, unresolved sexual relationship. Yeah, you know what,
I guess. I feel like if I say sorry, you
(14:34):
can't do that. I don't want him to think that
he has to hide it if he wants to be
friends with her anyway, because he thinks he can be
friends with her. I've tried to make suggestions based on
what I've read, saying things like I've read that there's
things that you can do, like on following on social media,
but Amy, that's so indirect. Of the things that I
(14:55):
think he really appreciates about this relationship and they think
you do too, is how open you're able to be
with each other even though there is this underlying trust issue.
Why not ask him what this friendship means to him
and why he wants to continue this friendship and how
he imagines it will impact this relationship. Have you ever
(15:17):
had that conversation with her? I have. His answer has
has been, I am friendly with with all of my
exes in the sense that I can wish I'm a
happy birthday, but I'm friends with all of my exits.
I said, here's a difference. I don't write them on
a weekly basis. I don't keep their animals for them
when they leave on a on a trip. The problem
(15:37):
with this specific X she comes across like the bad
friends you don't and your kids hanging around with, because
she's a bad influence. She's the one that all of
his friends think is no good. She's the ones that
whenever she comes back, he's not able to withstand for
some reason her charms and ends up sleeping with her again,
even after they supposedly break up from what wasn't a relationship.
(16:00):
Then in October they sleep with each other again. In
other words, he seems to not have a great line
of defense with this lady. And I think that's the
concern that you have about her. What happens the next
time she circles around to see what's what? This is
not about staying in touch with an X and next
that keeps it on and it's off, and it's on
and it's off. And it sounds like at her bidding
(16:22):
reflection on his feelings or his inability to say no
to her. Have you expressed that to him? You know,
I don't think I have expresses what you just said
that maybe you're vulnerable when she comes around because you
(16:44):
I know that this sounds so funny. You just can't
control yourself. Okay, So this is something important that I
did share with him. My most significant X, who is
the person that I thought I was gonna married. We
dated for for three years. Then he ended up any
new relationship, and he would keep in touch and if
we were traveling in the same city or something like that,
(17:05):
we would hook up and and it started getting unhealthy
because I always wanted to be with him, so I
started being hopeful and I would always get hurt. So
this went on for several years, and I realized that
this person was keeping me from meeting other people. Mr
dream Man whatever could have walked right in front of
(17:25):
me and I wouldn't have even seen him. So I
shared that story with him, and I told him, I
need to tell you how I handled this situation. Because
it was one of the most difficult things that I
have ever done. The last time we saw each other,
which was a couple of years ago, we had a
great time, but then he started giving me the cold shoulder.
I wanted more, and I texted him and I said,
(17:48):
please do not ever contact me again. And not even
five minutes had passed when I said that, and I
started texting him. What I meant by um, what I
meant by please do not was please do not write
to me in a sexual way anymore. And I started
making excuses for myself and it was like because you didn't.
(18:11):
It was like, you said, I'm going to quit the drug. Yes, wait,
just give me a little fixed to keep in my closet.
Just I didn't care. Justine. I was like, oh my god,
this this is like a drug. Said I'm done. I
am done. And we never spoke again. And I said,
you have no idea how difficult that was for me
to do and how empowering. But also I didn't realize
(18:34):
how much it was really hurting me. So how did
he respond any Because yes, you liked he it right up.
He was like someone that wasn't over like hit over
there with a bat he was like, Okay, I get it,
and he'll say things like that. I guess I want
him to say, I've unfollowed her, I've deleted her, I've
done it without me giving an ultimatum, because I think
(18:57):
you're also afraid that he will resort to the white
line about it and she will text him and he
will just know it's just at the grocery store and
here's a picture of me with my friends in the restaurant,
right exactly. I think the difficult to hear is that
you're asking somebody to basically get off his drug And
(19:19):
what I think you're struggling with is that you feel like, well,
I can tell him to you quit the drugs, but
if he's not ready, it's still an addiction and he's
still going to find a way to you know. And
so that's the conversation. It's nice that you told him
about your experience because it's very relatable, but at the
same time, it wasn't a direct request. You're almost trying
(19:41):
to be his therapist, like, let me to do all
these resources, I mean, all these ways to do it.
But but like you said in your letter, he has
to want to do it. When people are addicted to something.
There's a whole process, these stages of change and readiness,
and he may really really enjoy your relationship, but he
(20:04):
may also still be tied to this addiction. It's easy
to give up the dog. By the way, I'm not
saying that he's not going to experience some loss giving
up the dog, but she will find a way to
insinuate herself into his life, dog or no dog. So
I don't think he's worried that she's going to disappear
if he gives back the dog. It's the friendship and friendship.
(20:27):
We're using that term very loosely. Yeah, Amy, how close
has he come to admitting one way or the other
that it is a drug, that she is addictive, that
he is vulnerable to her. Never, I mean, I just
associate the pattern that the behavior. I feel like we
(20:48):
have these cathartic experience. Like I've said, he does this
all the time. He'll will really reflect on a moment
He's like, Wow, something I love about us and what
we do. But a lot of times he'll he'll compliment
it with an explanation or a comparison of why that
wasn't working in the other relationship and I'm really kind
(21:09):
of tired of hearing it. I need this person to
just not be mentioned in this relationship again. No, but
that is that that is the thing, right, because if
he just said, Wow, it's so great with you, had
such a great time, I feel so great with you,
but I feel so great with you, and I didn't
(21:29):
feel that way with the drug. And you know you
also conversations so this and this and my conversations with
the drug weren't like that. It's not nice that I'm
calling at the drug, but just reference. But I can
certainly understand, like, can we just keep it about me? Please?
And you say she keeps insinuating herself, but she does,
(21:50):
but he's doing the insinuating her. And I'm not sure
that he's aware of how much this is embedded in
so much text and subtext. But she lives inside him
in so many ways. So if he's making those comparisons,
that means that a lot of the time she's sitting
(22:11):
there on his shoulder and he's making those comparisons. There's
so many parallels between your relationship with your ex, your
current relationship with this boyfriend, and his relationship with his drug.
I think at the heart of all of this is
that we think that if we give an ultimatum that
somehow right, that that's going to change the way the
(22:33):
person feels. It might change the way they pave. But
I think the big question is what does it mean
to be loved? And what does it mean to love?
And they think there's a lot of confusion when there's
that addictive aspect to a relationship. Have you thought through
how the handoff goes because he will have to see her,
(22:56):
had any conversations with him? Or have you thought through
how that enough of the dog should go? You know,
I've thought about whether I should be there, whether I
shouldn't be there. Some days I want to be there
because I want her to see me, and then other
days I think, you know what, You're a mature adult,
(23:19):
and if you want to be in this relationship, I
trust that you're going to handle this correctly. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm not really sure to be honest with you, When
we talk about that question of his friendship with her,
does he always default to you and say what do
you think I should do? Or does he have any
thoughts of his own? What's funny is he separates the two.
He says, we didn't work as a relationship. So now
(23:44):
we're friends. But then when maybe if we have a
discussion over the dog, he'll say, yeah, okay, I see
that this is coming in between us. So he's never said,
I see this makes you really uncomfortable, and so I'll
set a boundary with this woman he has, And the
boundary is he doesn't reach out, he doesn't send her
(24:05):
photos of the dog. That's a that's a boundary that
she doesn't know about. Correct, Okay, so you know what
I don't know. I know that he told her he's
seeing someone. Do you know what her reaction was to
to his telling her that he seeing someone? He said
that she was happy for him, And he has said
he's like, you know what, if she met someone, I
(24:26):
would be happy for her. I think part of the
reason that it's hard to trust him is because I
don't know that he tells himself the truth, because he
makes these comparisons constantly around what this relationship is like
compared to what wasn't working at the other relationship, almost
as as a way to help him not go back
to the drug, like to almost talk himself through a wait,
(24:49):
this is really good, don't screw this up. I'm really
enjoying this. Yeah, he spoke to his sister about me,
and she was really excited, really happy, and that was
her reaction, like, don't this up, and he got a
little annoying. So I think the problem with this question
of honesty is that I don't know that he's ready
to be honest with himself. So it's going to be
(25:10):
hard to be honest with you too. So we have
some advice for you. You haven't yet taken a clear stand,
and in part, we think because it puts him to
the test, puts his intentions and his love for you
(25:32):
to the test, and there's something scary about that, and
so you're hoping it will happen spontaneously, so you're hinting
you're talking about the dog rather than about her, And
we think we should put it to the test. In
that way. You have all kinds of good reasons for
it to bother you in your history, in terms of
his history, what's going on, and so you're fully justified
(25:55):
in actually addressing it directly and head on. And we
all to think that there's a very natural opportunity for
you to do so. So I'm gonna pass it on
to Laurie, and she'll tell you exactly what we're suggesting. Okay, Amy,
One of the things that I was thinking about was
(26:15):
that you're thirty eight and you've been in several long
term relationships that have not worked out, and you you
actually talked about almost as a positive thing, that you
stay the course, you stay in there in these relationships, right,
it's a lot of time. It's a lot of time,
and so we want to make sure that you're not
(26:37):
going to spend two or three years in a relationship
with something that doesn't work, so that you can find
out more about that now earlier on, and if it's
not going to work, then you can find somebody who's
more appropriate for you. And if it is going to work,
then great. And so instead of talking about it in
terms of an ultimatum, we're talking more about what would
(27:00):
happen if you went to him and said, if you've
had a very on again, off again, volatile, complicated relationship
with this person. She comes up a lot in our conversations.
I get compared to her a lot. I know you
have a lot of feelings they're still I know you
say your friends, but it just makes me feel like
(27:21):
you're not as present with me, and it brings up
some trust issues with me as well. And so what
I would like for me in this relationship is for
you to write to her before the dog is returned
and to let her know that you're in a new relationship.
(27:43):
You really want to focus on that new relationship, and
that you can't be in contact with her, so that
she knows that before she sees you to return the dog.
And then when the dog has returned, I would like
to be there so that I feel comfortable with whatever
the interaction is, because I do want to trust you,
(28:05):
but the truth is I don't totally trust you yet.
That's just because of your history and because I know
what it's like to have this kind of addiction to
a person, and so I would feel more comfortable being there.
Now you're not saying to him and then I will
break up with you if you don't do this. You're saying,
this is what I need, and I'm letting you know
(28:26):
what I need, and you're going to see how responsive
he is to your needs, and you'll say to him,
I want you to let me know before the dog
is returned whether this is something that you've decided to
do or you've decided not to do or rather, I
want you to let me know before the dog is
returned whether you're willing to write that letter and whether
you can do it before the dog is returned. Okay,
(28:50):
So that she has the heads up, so she understands
that the receiving of her dog back is also the
ending of the friendship. And then Amy, the important part
is you're not saying and then I will leave. What
you're saying is this is what I need and I'm
being very clear about my needs in this relationship. Then
it is not his decision, but it is your decision, Amy,
(29:13):
about what to do if he chooses to ignore your needs,
and you can make whatever choice you want, but I
hope that it's not going to take two years or
three years for you to make that choice. We would
love for you to tell us about how that conversation went,
how and when he told you what his decision was,
whether you did see the letter, and what that was like,
(29:35):
and how the handoff of the dog went. So a
lot of different elements that would love to hear about
all of them. Got it? Okay? Well, thank you, Amy,
thank you, thank you guys. We're very excited to hear
how it goes. So so am I. We look forward
to hearing back from you. Thanks so much, I appreciate it.
Take care of a bye bye. So I really like
(29:59):
to talking to Amy, and I'm excited to hear what
she does. I think the one thing that she's going
to have to grapple with is getting over the hump
of and what if I lose the relationship, which is
hard to do, especially during COVID. But I'm very excited
to hear how that conversation goes and what that shows
her not so much about him, but about herself and
(30:20):
her ability to really speak up in a relationship. And
I think having the experience of doing that will really
sort of going forward, whether it's with this guy or not.
This is Dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a
short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench, and
(30:45):
you're listening to Dea Therapists. So, Guy, we heard back
from Amy. Oh, let's see what she had to say,
because she had a lot to do. Hi, Laurie, Guy,
I just wanted to follow up with my homework. My
plan was to talk with him in person about the
letter and why I felt he needed to write it
and why it was important, but I hadn't had the
(31:08):
opportunity to see him because of work. And on Monday evening,
the X wrote and said, Hey, I'm coming into town
and I'm I'm leaving Wednesday. He said, perfect, will you
come and get the dog on Tuesday. I'll leave all
of the dogs things by the door, and he said,
let yourself in. I didn't know that she still had
(31:30):
a key. I knew nothing about this yet, but we
had plans to see each other Tuesday evening. So on
Tuesday evening, when he came to see me, that's when
this all came to Like Wednesday morning, I received a
text message from him and said the dog is gone.
(31:51):
But you're not going to believe what happened. I thought
to myself, Oh, dry me, So he said. Tuesday evening
he went home, the dog was still there. He contacted
her and said, what happened? Why didn't she come and
get the dog. She made an excuse and said, listen,
(32:13):
I'm really busy. I'm trying to pack out the apartment
and I'm leaving tomorrow morning, so I really don't have
time to come and get the dog by now. It
was eleven o'clock at night. He said, I'm coming to
drop off the dog. He got in his car, went
and dropped off the dog. She basically had no plans
to come and get it. He did tell me that
he was a little concerned because he cares for the dog,
(32:35):
so he said, hey, what are you gonna do with
the dog? She just seemed to be very disinterested and
who kept the dog or the dog's well being. She
was angry that he returned the dog, so she said
to him, well, you were Plan A, so now I'm
moving to Plan B. My ex husband has decided to
(32:58):
take the dog, and then Plan C was to have
another ex partner take the dog. I think it was
what he needed to hear to be like, I've just
been used. I felt like he had a just a
moment of clarity. He looked relieved, like this weight was
(33:19):
lifted off his shoulders. I felt relieved about how how
everything transpired, but I still felt like I had to
talk about the letter, and things got a little bit uncomfortable.
I'm not gonna lie. It was a really difficult conversation.
He said, well, I never expected this from you. I
never thought that you would be the person that would
ask me to end a friendship. I said, look, I
(33:43):
I need you to understand why this is important to me.
I feel like this is a risk for me if
you're not clear and that this person is no longer
part of your life, because I don't want to find
out six months down the road that you do, in
fact gonna be with this person. He listened, he he
heard me out, He understood, and he said, I understand.
(34:04):
I'm gonna write the letter. He wrote a letter, He
did it, he sent it, and he told me that
he didn't hear back from her, and he said that
if he did hear back from her, he would he
would let me know. So that's what happened. So I
guess we will see where this takes us. I think
(34:27):
this really bodes well for them because when she went
to him and told him how she felt, even if
the sequence of events didn't happen as she had planned,
when the ex girlfriend did not pick up the dog,
he made a bold move. He went and drove the
dog to her. He said, I'm not going to take
care of your dog anymore. And I thought that was
(34:48):
a real show of support for how she was feeling.
And then of course when she asked for the letter,
he ended up sending that letter, And so I think
this is a really good start to establishing truck surround
this issue. I agree. I think this was great for
Amy because this was clearly uncomfortable for her to do.
I hope she told him that she appreciated what he did,
(35:09):
that it was meaningful to her because he did quite
a bunch of stuff, and she really advocated for herself.
She stood up for herself. She was clear with herself
and with him about what she needed. And I think
that he got something out of this too, which is
he got some clarity when he saw when he wasn't
going to take the dog, that he was just one
(35:29):
of many who was being asked to do this thing
for her. So I think there was a moment of
clarity for him that maybe he harbored this fantasy that
he was still special to her and now he was saying,
wait a minute, I'm seeing who I am to her
much more clearly, and all loyalty used to people, including dogs. Yeah,
(35:52):
I think they're both going to benefit. It really voges
well for a couple when you can go to somebody
and say here's something that I'm on comfortable with and
the person is responsive to you. It also establishes a
precedent for them that when something is uncomfortable, we're going
to raise it, we're going to talk about it, and
we're going to resolve it as a great precedent to
(36:12):
take forward into a relationship. That brings us to the
end of our show for this week. Thank you so
much for listening. You can follow us both online. I'm
at Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow me
on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb one or on Instagram at
Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author and I'm at guy Winch dot com.
(36:34):
I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at guy Winch. If
you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorian guy at I
heart Media dot com. Our executive producers Christopher hasci Otis,
were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric
(36:56):
and Next Time on Dear Therapists. An adopted woman for
was a close relationship with her biological father, but then
a DNA test reveals a shocking surprise. Growing up, it
was super important to me to have the answers as
to who my pological parents were, so it was pretty
devastating when the person who was supposed to be my
father wasn't my father and I had another father there somewhere.
(37:20):
Dear Therapist is a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for The Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy called Him for Ted And this is der Therapists.
This week, a man cares for his ex girlfriend's dog
and his current partner is concerned about what that means
(00:25):
for their relationship. I said, you know, it's really funny.
I have never met this person, and I I'm sorry
to use the word hate, but I hate her already
because she is in the middle of our relationship. Listen
in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process. Hey,
just a note before we start. Dear Therapist is for
(00:47):
informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is
not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you
are agreeing to let i Heeart Media use it in
(01:08):
part or and full, and we may edit it for
length and or clarity. Hey Laurie, Hey guy. So I
hear this week's letter has something to do with a dog.
It does, indeed, apparently to his company, and a dog
makes it a crowd. Let me read you the letter,
Dear therapists. I started dating a guy a few months ago,
(01:32):
in fact, one week before strict quarantine measures. The beautiful
part about this lockdown is we talk a lot. Does
I feel like I've gotten to know him on a
deeper level more quickly than I might have otherwise. We
have great emotional and physical chemistry. We read together, right together,
cooked together, great conversations, etcetera. It's been wonderful. There is, however,
(01:53):
an unresolved issue from his past. He takes care of
his ex girlfriend's dog whenever she's out of town. They
maintain a close friendship, but because of COVID nineteen, she's
been somewhat willingly stranded in another part of the country,
and he's been dog sitting formost three months. Now. Here's
the catch. This is the same woman whom he cheated
on his ex wife with over five years ago. As
(02:13):
I've learned more about him in their history, I can't
seem to get past why they still maintain a close friendship,
and I get annoyed at his inability to return the dog.
He knows how I feel. I believe the dog represents
a connection he subconsciously doesn't want to let go of,
and that he's not giving himself time to heal from
their breakup, which was only last June, with a one
night stand in October. They were friends before he got
(02:35):
married and lost touch, but he described the romantic relationship
as toxic. It was on again, off again. She never
wanted to commit. She is someone that his friends and
family think is bad news. He assures me this person
is in his past, but I know that their relationship
was intense, passionate, and one in which he was usually
hurt or dumped because he didn't want it to end.
(02:56):
Although he believes he can still be friends with his ex,
I'm not so sure. After many serious conversations, he is
clear that the dog has to go and has been
empathetic to my feelings, but has also asked me what
I think he should do regarding their friendship. He knows
that I don't want to tell him what to do
because I don't want to be the source of blame
later on, but I also wanted to come from him.
Am I'm reading too much into my feelings about what
(03:18):
this dog represents, Sincerely, Amy. So it's really interesting to
me guy that this is a letter that centers around
a dog, because I don't think people realize that dogs
come up so much in therapy because of the importance
that our pets play in our lives. And then also
(03:39):
what happens when there's a breakup, and like having a
child with somebody, what happens to the animals that were involved,
even tangentially in that relationship. Dogs are family members for
most people, so it's not a simple thing about return
the dog. And also, if it's COVID, dog might actually
(04:00):
be playing a important role in this guy's life. So
I'm not even sure what the level of sacrifice that
is in terms of giving up the dog. And I
think in this case, the dog is threatening because it
represents that tie that this man still has to his
ex girlfriend, and so she wants that tie severed, both
the dog to be returned and perhaps the friendship even
to be severed. So this is a letter about a
(04:21):
dog that's actually not about a dog. Right. He says
that he's willing to not take care of the dog
but at the same time he's asking her if he
should maintain the friendship. It's almost like he's abdicating responsibility
for making that decision himself. Juvlate, dogs come into your sessions.
I do, and I'm not that particular about why they
(04:44):
have to bring the dog. I just love dogs, and
so I allow dogs. Cats not so much because they
tend to walk on my desk and spill things. But
but dogs and babies by all means, bring them on.
This is the atherapists. Thanks for listening. You're listening to
(05:10):
dear therapist from my Heart Radio. So let's go talk
to Amy. So Hi Amy, Hi Amy, Great to meet you.
Hi guys, Hi Lori Amy. I'm wondering if you could
tell us a little bit more about the relationship. So
we met at the gym and then we started talking.
So we've been seeing each other for four months now, yeah,
I'm going in five months and starting at the beginning
(05:33):
of the relationship, did you know about this X and
what were those conversations? Like, I did not know about
the X. What he did make clear to me at
the very beginning and literally in our first conversation was
he mentioned his kids, Like, oh, I have to go
do something with my kids, and and so I think
he wanted to make it very clear. But there was
an ex wife and in his life, and he had kids.
(05:55):
But the only reason that the X came up initially
was because is of the dog hair in his apartment
and the dog I mean, sorry, never mind the dog
here in his apartment. I said, who's who's dog in this?
And it was like one of those sizes like, well,
this is not my dog, but this is a friend's dog.
(06:16):
And then little by little bits and pieces of information,
this friend was actually more than a friend. He's never
really called her next girlfriend. I think they've just had
this on again, off again relationship. So as time goes by,
I always get little snippets of information that come out
for whatever reason. Well for whatever reason is actually important, right,
(06:39):
he said he needs to heal. So how much as
he said about the fact that he was truly heartbroken
after this on and again off again thing was over.
You know what, He's very open. But sometimes when we're
in a moment, we're having a glass of wine and
reflect on our relationship and how much he enjoys our connection.
And I think it's always like the reference is what
(07:01):
he's experiencing now, which he has never experienced before. You
said that he hasn't experienced this before, So you're saying,
not just in that other relationship, but he didn't experience
this kind of whatever good feelings that he's having right
now and the level of comfort and connection. He didn't
experience that in his marriage either. Correct. Correct. Yeah, he's
(07:22):
he's been very very open about that. He's the type
of person that believes in partnership. Last night we were
I was going to cook at dinner and he had
this radio show that he had to go on and
he's like, you know, I'll just cancel the radio shows, Like,
don't cancel you, you do your hour show up while
I start the cooking. And so after he said, you
know that to me is such a level of partnership,
(07:42):
like give and take. So he always reflects on things
that he really likes about our relationship that he never
had before. And yet there's this feeling that you have
a trust issue with. Correct, And so tell us where
that comes from on your end with somebody who is
that expressive and and actually saying all those reassuring things.
(08:04):
Where that comes from for you? Yeah? So you know
the trust issue. So he said that he in the
past in order to avoid conflict or in order to
avoid an argument if you were late at work, but
you don't avoid of conflict you said, oh, you know,
I had to because something of the grocery store, like
little lies. He used to tell a lot of little lies.
(08:24):
And when he with with this X, he was unfaithful.
So when someone is open about that with you, I
think you automatically you're like, you're telling me that you
used to lie a lot to avoid conflict, you were unfaithful.
And he's talked about openly working on that with a therapist.
(08:46):
But for me, it creates a sense of will this
person do it again? You know, if you've cheated once,
will you cheat again? You know, if you're used to line,
how how easy is that habit to break? Have you
actually expressed to him what you just expressed to us,
which is that you wonder how that's going to play
out between the two of you, and while he's working
(09:06):
on it individually, how the two of you can create
a line of communication that's open around that issue so
that you're not wondering whether he's lied about the little
things and what can happen in your relationship. That can
create an environment where not only does he not feel
like he has to lie, but that you don't feel
like you have to keep checking up on him. Yeah,
(09:29):
it's really funny that you say that, Lawer, because we
talk about trust a lot. Let's just start with the
infidelity part. I I asked him openly. I said, I
just need to ask you. Do you believe the infidelity
on any levels? Okay? He said, He'll go out with
some of his friends and they all take pictures of
the group of them at the restaurant and send into
their wives so that they know that they are in
(09:51):
fact with their friends. And I said, oh, that that
just doesn't fly with me. I want to be able
to trust you when you go. If you say you
are where you are, I don't want to check up
on you. I said, that is not the type of
dynamics that I would like to create. So his answer
was absolutely, I don't believe in infidelity that he destroys
(10:11):
a relationship. He's like, it's the absolute worst thing you
can do in a relationship, he said, because you never
regained trust. Ever, it's out the window. So I felt
like that was an important conversation to have. He has
also said to me that in his past there were
only two very significant relationships in his life. One was
was before he was married, and the other one was
(10:32):
this X. And he said, those two people who he's
had a really strong bond with, he was never unfaithful with.
Can you tell us a little bit about your relationship history,
like what, I'm thirty eight. I've had probably four relationships
and they all lasted between two and two and three years.
When I connect with someone, I'm I really give it
(10:55):
a go or give it my all, not a really
casual dater type of person. Has infidelity been a part
of your relationships? Never? I told him, if you feel
like you want to be unfaithful, we need to have
that conversation and maybe we shouldn't be in a relationship.
How long was he married? Six years? And he's been
(11:17):
divorced for just as long has he had any other
relationships since in the six years but he's been divorced.
He's mentioned several people that he's dated, and then inevitably
he will say that this other person has sort of
been the sort of the demise of the relationship at
some point, like she'll come back in the picture. She reappears,
(11:39):
and then he doesn't give that relationship a chance. I mean,
I'm definitely the longest relationship that he's had since he's
been divorced. You said that in all of the other
relationships that this other woman would appear and that would
be the demise of the relationship, because she actually has
appeared in your relationship in the form of a dog. Absolutely.
(11:59):
And I said at the beginning the first few months,
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person, but I hate her already because she
is in the middle of our relationship. Is the dog
still there? Yes, the X is going to be temporarily
relocating to the other part of the country, and so
(12:21):
she has to come back to the city to move
out of her apartment. By the end of the month,
she has to be out. So he has emphatically said
that this dog has got to go by the end
of the month. You are very clear with him that
the dog bothers you, that he shouldn't have this dog.
(12:42):
But you also say that you don't want to tell
him what to do about the friendship quote unquote with
this X. And I'm struggling to understand what's the difference really.
In other words, it's a big thing to say to
someone you cannot keep this dog, which she's had for
several months. He's they to be living alone with the dog,
so he might have his own attachment to the dog.
(13:04):
Because you can get very lonely. Dogs are wonderful company
to ask you about what the dog represents. The dog
represents the X if you feel comfortable saying to him,
this dog shouldn't be here. Why don't you feel comfortable
saying and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing
and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in
the picture either, you know what I um? I feel
(13:30):
like the dog represents this woman, But against you doubt yourself,
I think, okay, does this dog represent the woman? Is
this dog a connection? Or am I just totally over
analyzing the situation. Can he have a friendship with this person?
I mean, he has mentioned that he's known for twenty
cething years. But I said, this is not a friend.
I said, I don't have sex with my friends like
(13:51):
this is. This is not a normal friend. You know,
there are times when people are friends with their exes
and it works out just fine. Because it was relationship,
it ended, they transitioned in whatever way to friendship. But
the difference here is that this woman has, as he said,
led to the demise of every one of his relationships,
(14:12):
and that there was also a very unhealthy aspect to
the relationship. Yeah, and you're not able to say to him,
and I'm not comfortable with this woman with whom you
have a very complicated, unresolved sexual relationship. Yeah, you know what,
I guess. I feel like if I say sorry, you
(14:34):
can't do that. I don't want him to think that
he has to hide it if he wants to be
friends with her anyway, because he thinks he can be
friends with her. I've tried to make suggestions based on
what I've read, saying things like I've read that there's
things that you can do, like on following on social media,
but Amy, that's so indirect. Of the things that I
(14:55):
think he really appreciates about this relationship and they think
you do too, is how open you're able to be
with each other even though there is this underlying trust issue.
Why not ask him what this friendship means to him
and why he wants to continue this friendship and how
he imagines it will impact this relationship. Have you ever
(15:17):
had that conversation with her? I have. His answer has
has been, I am friendly with with all of my
exes in the sense that I can wish I'm a
happy birthday, but I'm friends with all of my exits.
I said, here's a difference. I don't write them on
a weekly basis. I don't keep their animals for them
when they leave on a on a trip. The problem
(15:37):
with this specific X she comes across like the bad
friends you don't and your kids hanging around with, because
she's a bad influence. She's the one that all of
his friends think is no good. She's the ones that
whenever she comes back, he's not able to withstand for
some reason her charms and ends up sleeping with her again,
even after they supposedly break up from what wasn't a relationship.
(16:00):
Then in October they sleep with each other again. In
other words, he seems to not have a great line
of defense with this lady. And I think that's the
concern that you have about her. What happens the next
time she circles around to see what's what? This is
not about staying in touch with an X and next
that keeps it on and it's off, and it's on
and it's off. And it sounds like at her bidding
(16:22):
reflection on his feelings or his inability to say no
to her. Have you expressed that to him? You know,
I don't think I have expresses what you just said
that maybe you're vulnerable when she comes around because you
(16:44):
I know that this sounds so funny. You just can't
control yourself. Okay, So this is something important that I
did share with him. My most significant X, who is
the person that I thought I was gonna married. We
dated for for three years. Then he ended up any
new relationship, and he would keep in touch and if
we were traveling in the same city or something like that,
(17:05):
we would hook up and and it started getting unhealthy
because I always wanted to be with him, so I
started being hopeful and I would always get hurt. So
this went on for several years, and I realized that
this person was keeping me from meeting other people. Mr
dream Man whatever could have walked right in front of
(17:25):
me and I wouldn't have even seen him. So I
shared that story with him, and I told him, I
need to tell you how I handled this situation. Because
it was one of the most difficult things that I
have ever done. The last time we saw each other,
which was a couple of years ago, we had a
great time, but then he started giving me the cold shoulder.
I wanted more, and I texted him and I said,
(17:48):
please do not ever contact me again. And not even
five minutes had passed when I said that, and I
started texting him. What I meant by um, what I
meant by please do not was please do not write
to me in a sexual way anymore. And I started
making excuses for myself and it was like because you didn't.
(18:11):
It was like, you said, I'm going to quit the drug. Yes, wait,
just give me a little fixed to keep in my closet.
Just I didn't care. Justine. I was like, oh my god,
this this is like a drug. Said I'm done. I
am done. And we never spoke again. And I said,
you have no idea how difficult that was for me
to do and how empowering. But also I didn't realize
(18:34):
how much it was really hurting me. So how did
he respond any Because yes, you liked he it right up.
He was like someone that wasn't over like hit over
there with a bat he was like, Okay, I get it,
and he'll say things like that. I guess I want
him to say, I've unfollowed her, I've deleted her, I've
done it without me giving an ultimatum, because I think
(18:57):
you're also afraid that he will resort to the white
line about it and she will text him and he
will just know it's just at the grocery store and
here's a picture of me with my friends in the restaurant,
right exactly. I think the difficult to hear is that
you're asking somebody to basically get off his drug And
(19:19):
what I think you're struggling with is that you feel like, well,
I can tell him to you quit the drugs, but
if he's not ready, it's still an addiction and he's
still going to find a way to you know. And
so that's the conversation. It's nice that you told him
about your experience because it's very relatable, but at the
same time, it wasn't a direct request. You're almost trying
(19:41):
to be his therapist, like, let me to do all
these resources, I mean, all these ways to do it.
But but like you said in your letter, he has
to want to do it. When people are addicted to something.
There's a whole process, these stages of change and readiness,
and he may really really enjoy your relationship, but he
(20:04):
may also still be tied to this addiction. It's easy
to give up the dog. By the way, I'm not
saying that he's not going to experience some loss giving
up the dog, but she will find a way to
insinuate herself into his life, dog or no dog. So
I don't think he's worried that she's going to disappear
if he gives back the dog. It's the friendship and friendship.
(20:27):
We're using that term very loosely. Yeah, Amy, how close
has he come to admitting one way or the other
that it is a drug, that she is addictive, that
he is vulnerable to her. Never, I mean, I just
associate the pattern that the behavior. I feel like we
(20:48):
have these cathartic experience. Like I've said, he does this
all the time. He'll will really reflect on a moment
He's like, Wow, something I love about us and what
we do. But a lot of times he'll he'll compliment
it with an explanation or a comparison of why that
wasn't working in the other relationship and I'm really kind
(21:09):
of tired of hearing it. I need this person to
just not be mentioned in this relationship again. No, but
that is that that is the thing, right, because if
he just said, Wow, it's so great with you, had
such a great time, I feel so great with you,
but I feel so great with you, and I didn't
(21:29):
feel that way with the drug. And you know you
also conversations so this and this and my conversations with
the drug weren't like that. It's not nice that I'm
calling at the drug, but just reference. But I can
certainly understand, like, can we just keep it about me? Please?
And you say she keeps insinuating herself, but she does,
(21:50):
but he's doing the insinuating her. And I'm not sure
that he's aware of how much this is embedded in
so much text and subtext. But she lives inside him
in so many ways. So if he's making those comparisons,
that means that a lot of the time she's sitting
(22:11):
there on his shoulder and he's making those comparisons. There's
so many parallels between your relationship with your ex, your
current relationship with this boyfriend, and his relationship with his drug.
I think at the heart of all of this is
that we think that if we give an ultimatum that
somehow right, that that's going to change the way the
(22:33):
person feels. It might change the way they pave. But
I think the big question is what does it mean
to be loved? And what does it mean to love?
And they think there's a lot of confusion when there's
that addictive aspect to a relationship. Have you thought through
how the handoff goes because he will have to see her,
(22:56):
had any conversations with him? Or have you thought through
how that enough of the dog should go? You know,
I've thought about whether I should be there, whether I
shouldn't be there. Some days I want to be there
because I want her to see me, and then other
days I think, you know what, You're a mature adult,
(23:19):
and if you want to be in this relationship, I
trust that you're going to handle this correctly. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm not really sure to be honest with you, When
we talk about that question of his friendship with her,
does he always default to you and say what do
you think I should do? Or does he have any
thoughts of his own? What's funny is he separates the two.
He says, we didn't work as a relationship. So now
(23:44):
we're friends. But then when maybe if we have a
discussion over the dog, he'll say, yeah, okay, I see
that this is coming in between us. So he's never said,
I see this makes you really uncomfortable, and so I'll
set a boundary with this woman he has, And the
boundary is he doesn't reach out, he doesn't send her
(24:05):
photos of the dog. That's a that's a boundary that
she doesn't know about. Correct, Okay, so you know what
I don't know. I know that he told her he's
seeing someone. Do you know what her reaction was to
to his telling her that he seeing someone? He said
that she was happy for him, And he has said
he's like, you know what, if she met someone, I
(24:26):
would be happy for her. I think part of the
reason that it's hard to trust him is because I
don't know that he tells himself the truth, because he
makes these comparisons constantly around what this relationship is like
compared to what wasn't working at the other relationship, almost
as as a way to help him not go back
to the drug, like to almost talk himself through a wait,
(24:49):
this is really good, don't screw this up. I'm really
enjoying this. Yeah, he spoke to his sister about me,
and she was really excited, really happy, and that was
her reaction, like, don't this up, and he got a
little annoying. So I think the problem with this question
of honesty is that I don't know that he's ready
to be honest with himself. So it's going to be
(25:10):
hard to be honest with you too. So we have
some advice for you. You haven't yet taken a clear stand,
and in part, we think because it puts him to
the test, puts his intentions and his love for you
(25:32):
to the test, and there's something scary about that, and
so you're hoping it will happen spontaneously, so you're hinting
you're talking about the dog rather than about her, And
we think we should put it to the test. In
that way. You have all kinds of good reasons for
it to bother you in your history, in terms of
his history, what's going on, and so you're fully justified
(25:55):
in actually addressing it directly and head on. And we
all to think that there's a very natural opportunity for
you to do so. So I'm gonna pass it on
to Laurie, and she'll tell you exactly what we're suggesting. Okay, Amy,
One of the things that I was thinking about was
(26:15):
that you're thirty eight and you've been in several long
term relationships that have not worked out, and you you
actually talked about almost as a positive thing, that you
stay the course, you stay in there in these relationships, right,
it's a lot of time. It's a lot of time,
and so we want to make sure that you're not
(26:37):
going to spend two or three years in a relationship
with something that doesn't work, so that you can find
out more about that now earlier on, and if it's
not going to work, then you can find somebody who's
more appropriate for you. And if it is going to work,
then great. And so instead of talking about it in
terms of an ultimatum, we're talking more about what would
(27:00):
happen if you went to him and said, if you've
had a very on again, off again, volatile, complicated relationship
with this person. She comes up a lot in our conversations.
I get compared to her a lot. I know you
have a lot of feelings they're still I know you
say your friends, but it just makes me feel like
(27:21):
you're not as present with me, and it brings up
some trust issues with me as well. And so what
I would like for me in this relationship is for
you to write to her before the dog is returned
and to let her know that you're in a new relationship.
(27:43):
You really want to focus on that new relationship, and
that you can't be in contact with her, so that
she knows that before she sees you to return the dog.
And then when the dog has returned, I would like
to be there so that I feel comfortable with whatever
the interaction is, because I do want to trust you,
(28:05):
but the truth is I don't totally trust you yet.
That's just because of your history and because I know
what it's like to have this kind of addiction to
a person, and so I would feel more comfortable being there.
Now you're not saying to him and then I will
break up with you if you don't do this. You're saying,
this is what I need, and I'm letting you know
(28:26):
what I need, and you're going to see how responsive
he is to your needs, and you'll say to him,
I want you to let me know before the dog
is returned whether this is something that you've decided to
do or you've decided not to do or rather, I
want you to let me know before the dog is
returned whether you're willing to write that letter and whether
you can do it before the dog is returned. Okay,
(28:50):
So that she has the heads up, so she understands
that the receiving of her dog back is also the
ending of the friendship. And then Amy, the important part
is you're not saying and then I will leave. What
you're saying is this is what I need and I'm
being very clear about my needs in this relationship. Then
it is not his decision, but it is your decision, Amy,
(29:13):
about what to do if he chooses to ignore your needs,
and you can make whatever choice you want, but I
hope that it's not going to take two years or
three years for you to make that choice. We would
love for you to tell us about how that conversation went,
how and when he told you what his decision was,
whether you did see the letter, and what that was like,
(29:35):
and how the handoff of the dog went. So a
lot of different elements that would love to hear about
all of them. Got it? Okay? Well, thank you, Amy,
thank you, thank you guys. We're very excited to hear
how it goes. So so am I. We look forward
to hearing back from you. Thanks so much, I appreciate it.
Take care of a bye bye. So I really like
(29:59):
to talking to Amy, and I'm excited to hear what
she does. I think the one thing that she's going
to have to grapple with is getting over the hump
of and what if I lose the relationship, which is
hard to do, especially during COVID. But I'm very excited
to hear how that conversation goes and what that shows
her not so much about him, but about herself and
(30:20):
her ability to really speak up in a relationship. And
I think having the experience of doing that will really
sort of going forward, whether it's with this guy or not.
This is Dear Therapists, and we'll be back after a
short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench, and
(30:45):
you're listening to Dea Therapists. So, Guy, we heard back
from Amy. Oh, let's see what she had to say,
because she had a lot to do. Hi, Laurie, Guy,
I just wanted to follow up with my homework. My
plan was to talk with him in person about the
letter and why I felt he needed to write it
and why it was important, but I hadn't had the
(31:08):
opportunity to see him because of work. And on Monday evening,
the X wrote and said, Hey, I'm coming into town
and I'm I'm leaving Wednesday. He said, perfect, will you
come and get the dog on Tuesday. I'll leave all
of the dogs things by the door, and he said,
let yourself in. I didn't know that she still had
(31:30):
a key. I knew nothing about this yet, but we
had plans to see each other Tuesday evening. So on
Tuesday evening, when he came to see me, that's when
this all came to Like Wednesday morning, I received a
text message from him and said the dog is gone.
(31:51):
But you're not going to believe what happened. I thought
to myself, Oh, dry me, So he said. Tuesday evening
he went home, the dog was still there. He contacted
her and said, what happened? Why didn't she come and
get the dog. She made an excuse and said, listen,
(32:13):
I'm really busy. I'm trying to pack out the apartment
and I'm leaving tomorrow morning, so I really don't have
time to come and get the dog by now. It
was eleven o'clock at night. He said, I'm coming to
drop off the dog. He got in his car, went
and dropped off the dog. She basically had no plans
to come and get it. He did tell me that
he was a little concerned because he cares for the dog,
(32:35):
so he said, hey, what are you gonna do with
the dog? She just seemed to be very disinterested and
who kept the dog or the dog's well being. She
was angry that he returned the dog, so she said
to him, well, you were Plan A, so now I'm
moving to Plan B. My ex husband has decided to
(32:58):
take the dog, and then Plan C was to have
another ex partner take the dog. I think it was
what he needed to hear to be like, I've just
been used. I felt like he had a just a
moment of clarity. He looked relieved, like this weight was
(33:19):
lifted off his shoulders. I felt relieved about how how
everything transpired, but I still felt like I had to
talk about the letter, and things got a little bit uncomfortable.
I'm not gonna lie. It was a really difficult conversation.
He said, well, I never expected this from you. I
never thought that you would be the person that would
ask me to end a friendship. I said, look, I
(33:43):
I need you to understand why this is important to me.
I feel like this is a risk for me if
you're not clear and that this person is no longer
part of your life, because I don't want to find
out six months down the road that you do, in
fact gonna be with this person. He listened, he he
heard me out, He understood, and he said, I understand.
(34:04):
I'm gonna write the letter. He wrote a letter, He
did it, he sent it, and he told me that
he didn't hear back from her, and he said that
if he did hear back from her, he would he
would let me know. So that's what happened. So I
guess we will see where this takes us. I think
(34:27):
this really bodes well for them because when she went
to him and told him how she felt, even if
the sequence of events didn't happen as she had planned,
when the ex girlfriend did not pick up the dog,
he made a bold move. He went and drove the
dog to her. He said, I'm not going to take
care of your dog anymore. And I thought that was
(34:48):
a real show of support for how she was feeling.
And then of course when she asked for the letter,
he ended up sending that letter, And so I think
this is a really good start to establishing truck surround
this issue. I agree. I think this was great for
Amy because this was clearly uncomfortable for her to do.
I hope she told him that she appreciated what he did,
(35:09):
that it was meaningful to her because he did quite
a bunch of stuff, and she really advocated for herself.
She stood up for herself. She was clear with herself
and with him about what she needed. And I think
that he got something out of this too, which is
he got some clarity when he saw when he wasn't
going to take the dog, that he was just one
(35:29):
of many who was being asked to do this thing
for her. So I think there was a moment of
clarity for him that maybe he harbored this fantasy that
he was still special to her and now he was saying,
wait a minute, I'm seeing who I am to her
much more clearly, and all loyalty used to people, including dogs. Yeah,
(35:52):
I think they're both going to benefit. It really voges
well for a couple when you can go to somebody
and say here's something that I'm on comfortable with and
the person is responsive to you. It also establishes a
precedent for them that when something is uncomfortable, we're going
to raise it, we're going to talk about it, and
we're going to resolve it as a great precedent to
(36:12):
take forward into a relationship. That brings us to the
end of our show for this week. Thank you so
much for listening. You can follow us both online. I'm
at Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow me
on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb one or on Instagram at
Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author and I'm at guy Winch dot com.
(36:34):
I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at guy Winch. If
you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorian guy at I
heart Media dot com. Our executive producers Christopher hasci Otis,
were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric
(36:56):
and Next Time on Dear Therapists. An adopted woman for
was a close relationship with her biological father, but then
a DNA test reveals a shocking surprise. Growing up, it
was super important to me to have the answers as
to who my pological parents were, so it was pretty
devastating when the person who was supposed to be my
father wasn't my father and I had another father there somewhere.
(37:20):
Dear Therapist is a production of I Heart Radio.
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