December 9, 2025 • 50 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. After seven years of marriage, Elena recently discovered that her husband has been having affairs—plenty of them. They are in couples counseling and he has vowed to change, but this hasn't gone so well. We help her to explore her own reluctance to change, and encourage her to prioritize her own feelings, stop falling prey to manipulation, and take action that will move her forward.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists. This week, a woman copes with her
husband's infidelity.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
It has come out and therapy that the relations have
been with men. However, my husband is very close off
and kind of just wanted to go away, listen.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
In and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partner
(03:21):
and full and we may edit it for length anden
of clarity.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Hey Guy, Hi Laurie.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
So what do we have today?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, we have a really compelling letter, so let me
get right to it, Dear therapists. I recently discovered that
my husband has been secretly meeting up with men for sex.
I discovered this about two months ago when I found
a secret email account that contained messages with multiple men
over the entire course of our seven year relationship. Before that,
(03:50):
I had slowly discovered pieces of this hidden life, starting
in August with messages to a woman. It sent me
into a frenzy looking through emails and trying to uncover
his unfaithfulness. I asked him about things I found, and
it was one line after another. I had already known
he had cheated and messaged women during our relationship, and
those were still hurts not healed. But now men, I
(04:11):
am shocked. I try to forgive and trust him, but
there is so much anger and tension between us. He
snaps at me if I ask where he's been, if
I ask about spam emails that are soliciting sex, if
he has been seeing any one when he comes home late.
I don't trust him. Our fights have increased, and so
has our mutual dislike. I want to try to save
our marriage, but I don't know if that's possible given
(04:33):
how much hurt there is. He states that I'm out
of control, crazy, unreasonable. He has no empathy for what
I'm going through. When I get upset and cry about it,
he says I'm selfish and throw him a fit. I'm
at a loss for what to do. I need my husband,
but he isn't there. He's built so many walls he
won't let me in. Our relationship is also complicated by
(04:54):
the fact that we are military, living overseas and are
away from the support of family and friends. I can't
discuss it with any one close to me or my
husband because I still care about his character and the
image he wants to display. The mental health support disavailable
to us is limited. We just recently found a therapist
to speak to, but he isn't even honest with her
(05:14):
about his affairs with men, and I don't feel it's
my right to share that information. But I need to
talk to someone that is the only therapist available to us. Here,
I am left with all this baggage and no one
to unload it to. I don't know. I wonder if
I'm out of control, if I'm crazy. I have thought
about leaving, but I don't want to leave. To be dramatic,
if I leave the relationship, I will be truly leaving
(05:36):
for good. I'm so emotionally exhausted and defeated. Please help Elena.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Wow, that is quite a tough situation, and I think.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
What strikes me most about it is that this woman
is in so much emotional pain and has been for
a while now.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, it's so common for people to wait when they
feel the first sign of pain, and they don't generally
get into our offices until the pain becomes unbearable, And
it sounds like that's why she wrote to us.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Now, so let's talk about the situation she's in, because
this has been going on for the entire length of
the relationship. He doesn't sound like he's interested in stopping
the behavior. He's incredibly defensive about discussing it.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
We see this all the time, where people come in
and somebody's had an affair, and I'm always looking to
see how willing the person who had the affair is
to talk about what happened. And what strikes me about
her letter is that her husband doesn't seem willing at
all to address what's going on, and in fact, he's
sort of gaslighting her he's making her sound crazy for
(06:45):
having a big emotional reaction to something that is really traumatic,
and he's acting like she's the problem. And I think
so often people do that because they have so much
shame around what they've done, and so they have to
turn it around on somebody else. And she's in this
really difficult position because not only is he doing that
to her, but she's so isolated where they're overseas, they're
(07:08):
not near any family or friends, and so she's starting
to question her own reality.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I think that's one of the most unfortunate aspects of
what's going on here. The thing about affairs is we've
both worked with many couples who've repaired their relationship after
an affair and truly gone on to thrive. It's absolutely dable,
and one of the basic ingredients you need for that
is for the person who's been doing the cheating to
at least take responsibility, at least be open minded and
(07:37):
hearing the anger, the pain, whatever they've caused emotionally to
the other person, and to really work to rebuild trust,
to reconnect, to renegotiate. And there's nothing here that indicates
any kind of willingness like that on her husband's part.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I agree with that to the point that she's colluding
with his dishonesty with the therapist, that she doesn't feel
comfortable telling the therapist about this new piece of information
that she discovered a few months ago about his affairs
with men, and I think she's so trying to protect him.
It's interesting too that he's not hiding his affairs with
(08:21):
women from the therapist, or at least it doesn't seem so,
but he's hiding his affairs from men. And people tend
to keep things secret from their therapists when they don't
want to change, because once they put that thing out there,
they know they're going to have to make some changes.
And I would guess that he's really struggling with what
(08:42):
would happen if he talked about his attraction to men.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Sometimes when you see somebody who's dealing with a lot
of shame, what they do is they compartmentalize. They put
it in a box and almost section it off from
their daily lives. They don't look at it themselves, they
don't think about it. And that's why he's not willing
to look or think about it with her, because he
hasn't been able to do that probably with himself either,
So I'm actually eager to speak with her.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, let's go talk to her.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after
a quick break.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb and.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Hi Elena, Lena, Hi, Well, thank you so much for
sharing your story with us. What a painful situation you're in.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Could you give us a little bit of a snapshot
of wear things on now?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Yeah, of course. So it has come out that the
relations have been with men. The therapist has tried to
kind of open up that subject and discuss it in
further detail. However, my husband is very closed off. He
kind of just wants it to go away. He doesn't
(09:57):
want to discuss it in detail. He acknowledges that it happened,
yet he doesn't want to talk about it. He just
kind of wants to forget about it.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
Elene.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I'm wondering how you guys got to therapy in the
first place. Was that your idea and he was open
to it or was he resistant to going to therapy?
Speaker 4 (10:15):
We both had discussed therapy, However, given our situation with
being overseas, it was very difficult to find help. I
was the one to call. I had told him, we
need to go to counseling. You know, what are you
doing to help the relationship? What are you doing to
try He was never making the phone calls, he was
(10:37):
never trying to find help for us, And that was
all on my part.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
How did it come up, this part about him having
affairs with men, because it sounded like that was a
secret before, and I'm wondering which of you brought that
up in therapy?
Speaker 4 (10:50):
So we see a therapist together, and then she suggested
seeing us individually. And so I was driving him to
work one day and he said, Hey, I know you
have your therapy session this morning. I think that it's
important that you mentioned the affairs are with men. I
(11:12):
was like, are you sure that's not something that you
want to tell and he's like, it doesn't really matter.
I think it's going to come out sooner or later,
so you know, if you want to say it, no,
it's fine. And so that's how that came out.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So he couldn't even really face saying it to the
therapist himself. He needed you to do that for him.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Yeah, even in my therapy session, and I was very
held back and I was still like, ah, should I
say it? Should I not say it? And I was like,
you know what this is really what's going on now?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
You know?
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And I think And then when he went into his
session later, then he knew that that had already been divulged,
and so maybe it was more comfortable talking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
You'ves have felt such relief having that out there.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah, because I haven't talked with this about anyone, Like literally,
I've not spoke to my family about it, my best friend,
I mean, no one. But to be able to finally
tell someone like this is what I found out. I
found these emails, I found the phone conversation, they separate
(12:20):
accounts like for seven years. Yeah, it was such a relief,
but also a lot to work through as well.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Has he expressed that he wants to stop having these
kinds of affairs with men and with women? Has he
expressed that intention very very clearly that I won't do
this or I'm going to try not to do this anymore?
What is he thinking the relationship needs to be able
to repair itself.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
That is a very tough question. I don't know how
to answer that because he views sex and affairs in
such a different light than I do, and he's in
our conversations that if I were to go have sex
with someone, then you know, good for me. I'm enjoying myself.
(13:17):
It's just sexual. So it's more or less that I
see it wrong. And so therefore because I see it strong,
then he's willing to change the behavior, not necessarily that
it's inappropriate or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, so he has a different standard and ethical value
about having sex than you do. I'm asking this question again.
He has said specifically, therefore I will not have any
outside sex again.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Correct. Yes, he stated that. Now since this has all
come out and we've been in therapy, I've found messages
again to other women, so not men in this case,
or not meeting up physically, but that same message sextain
seeking that validation through other means.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It sounds like this new information about what's been going
on for the last seven years was a surprise to you,
but that there were other affairs that also went on,
And I'm wondering how you guys talked about those. You
keep saying he just wants it all to go away,
and I wonder how you handled it in the past.
And also when you're in therapy, if he just wants
(14:36):
it to go away, then what does he think you're
doing in therapy? So you're trying to talk about this
big thing going on in your relationship, which is this
lack of trust, these different ideas about what the rules
are in the marriage. So what happens in that moment
when the two of you are there with the therapist, So.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
When it's just him and I, then there's that wall built,
that avoidancy of him not talking about it, shutting down,
refusing to discuss it, and eventually he'll leave the home
or the other where he's angry and super defensive and
I'm asking, you know, you came home late, where were you?
(15:15):
You didn't answer your phone, your phone was shut off
on him becoming super defensive. The other side of it
is when we're in therapy, it's like a twitch, Like
he'll talk about it and he'll say he feels attacked,
or he feels like he's disgusting, or he feels that
I find him disgusting, kind of working through how he
(15:39):
feels and putting those feelings onto how I see him,
even though I don't see him as disgusting or shameful?
Is just shocking.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
You say that your fights have increased, and so has
your mutual dislike. So I'm curious about what does work
between the two of you. What are the strengths of
the relationship. What are the things that are allowing you
to have stayed for.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
As long as you have?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Well, he's a super fun person, you know, He's the
type of person that anyone can connect with. And he's funny,
he loves to tell jokes, he's intelligent.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Those are qualities about him. But I'm wondering, what are
the things that he offers to you in the relationship
other than the pleasure of his company, other.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Things that he offers to me? Yes, I mean, I guess.
I don't know if I'm just caught off guard there
or if I just can't really comment on it.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Look, one of the questions that we have, Elena, is
what's keeping you in the relationship?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
You know, I think it's uh, I mean, I don't know, honestly.
What it is is my love for him, I don't know,
you know, we all have that, like we're going tom
or this brokenness, Like I'm just going to love him
enough that he sees what true love is. I feel
(17:17):
like maybe that's part of it, you know, like, if
I love him enough, then maybe hope realize that this
is a toxic behavior. It's very obviously unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Well, right, I understand you feel well, if I just
stick in there and love the person enough, then they'll
come around in some kind of way. There's a lot
of a round that needs to be happening here. It's
a big arc we're talking about. As much as you're
paying attention to what's going on with him, are you
paying attention to what's going on with you?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
No, Like I think that I have lost a huge
part of myself. I remember the first time that I
found the first messages to a girl, and I remember
just bawling and being so hurt and shocked and everything.
And then now it's I find something that's just like
(18:16):
I'm numb to it, like, oh, I found something again,
you know, and you start to lose a part of yourself,
and it starts to become oh, it's not such big
of a deal. It's just messaging. Whereas in the beginning,
you know, like where your standard was. Absolutely I've lost
a part of myself. I've lost a huge amount of
(18:37):
self worth, of viewing myself as being enough. I feel
like I give so much to the relationship that I'm
left feeling empty and then like asking for a hug
or just reaching out for that affection because I feel
so neglected, and then hearing no, like no, I don't
(18:59):
want to give you a hugg right now, No, I
don't want to give you a section. Just feeling like
completely alone in all of it.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
You talked about out losing yourself, and I think part
of losing yourself as you start to question, well, is
he right? Am I crazy? Am I overreacting? And so
I wonder, how do you think a sane person would
respond to what's going on.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
I try to be very logical and reasonable in all
of our discussions, even when I'm talking to him and
I'm raising my voice and he says, look at you,
you're out of control. Like you're raising your voice. You're
completely out of control and thinking, Any sane person dealing
with these issues would have a raised voice. Any person
(19:45):
who has feelings would have a raised voice. I don't
think that I'm out of control.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
He keeps telling you that you're out of control, but
his behavior is so out of control and so his
presentation might look different from yours. Right, So you're reacting
to these big feelings that you're having as a result
of what's going on, and he's presenting himself as the
same as the one who's contained, as the one who's
(20:12):
in control. But his behavior says something else, don't you think?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yeah, I know, I absolutely agree. I think that often
he's kind of projecting, like, I know that this is
absurd behavior, but yeah, I'm going to project that upon you,
and I very much feel like he knows that it's astora,
he knows it's unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'm very glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
You are quite clear that even when your voice is
getting loud, given what's going on, you are entitled for
your voice to be getting loud.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And I'm so glad you see that.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
But in general, my concern is that he and the
relationship are somehow way atop your priority list, and you
and your emotional health, your feelings, your happiness is way
down on that list. Do you feel ready to put
yourself as a priority on that list.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
I've struggled with that, honestly, it wasn't until this last discovery.
So what happened is in the counselor side, where are
you at right now? And he said, I want to
work on a relationship. I'm ready to work on a relationship.
And then when he left, he gave me a big
hug and kisses and I felt better, but not hopeful.
(21:36):
And then literally twelve hours later, after we had left
our counseling session, I found messages yet again to another woman,
and I honestly think that that was the last straw.
And at what point is it going to be enough
for me to accept that I'm part of the pattern.
(21:57):
And in order to change the pattern, I need to
change my own behavior, and I'm trying to do that
right now. I'm trying to prioritize myself. I'm trying to
look in the few sure and see what do I want?
What are my goals? And is this something that I
want to continue for another seven years? Because it's really not.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You know, Elena, here's a similarity between you and your husband,
And I want to preface this by saying that change
is really hard, and you know that change is really
hard for your husband, but I also think change is
really hard for you, and you almost do to yourself
what your husband does to you. So he says I'm
going to change. I'm going to do something about this.
(22:44):
I want things to be better, and then he doesn't change,
and you do that with yourself. When guy was asking you,
are you ready to prioritize yourself? They think part of
you wants to just like part of your husband wants
to change, but another part of you isn't really keeping
that promise. So I imagine that what you're doing is
(23:04):
you're saying to yourself, you know, I'm going to prioritize myself.
I'm going to show up and be present in this
relationship in a way where I'm a real part of this.
I'm not reacting to it, but I'm participating. And I
think you make promises to yourself and then you don't
keep them. So you're doing to yourself what your husband
(23:24):
is doing to you too, which is I'm going to
help myself, and then you let yourself down. And what
Guy's asking is, are you ready to stop letting yourself down?
Are you ready to keep your promises to yourself?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
I mean yes, I want to keep promises to myself.
I feel like I'm so invested in a relationship it's
like to give up and to completely wash my hands
of it is such a hard thing for me to say.
I want to believe the best in him. I want
to believe that he can change. I want to believe
that when he says I'm sorry, I'll stop, that he
(24:00):
really means it. This time.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm less interested in whether he's going to stop, because
he hasn't shown you that he's going to do that.
But I just wonder what you think is going to
happen given the path that you're on. If you keep
going to couple's therapy and you both say you want
to quote, work on the relationship when you go to
(24:23):
couple's therapy, that's not a specific enough goal. When people
come in and they say I want to work on
the relationship, that means nothing to a couple's therapist. What
we want to hear as couple's therapists is we want
to hear what is each of you going to do
to make the relationship better. Not to get the other
person to change, not to get the other person to
(24:44):
do something differently, but what are you each going to
do individually to make things better? But if you have
this vague goal of we want to work on the relationship,
and then you keep doing the same things over and over.
I don't see how this is going to change, and
I wonder how you do.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
I don't feel like I know what to do to
change other than the relationship. Is that the only outcome. Like,
I am open to suggestions, and I am open to
working on myself. I'm just thoroughly exhausted. I'm exhausted, you know,
(25:23):
from joining through phones, from all the worry and everything.
I don't know what else to do.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Look, you have very good reason to be exhausted, because
you've been trying to fix something that takes two people
by yourself. It's like trying to mount one of those
giant TV screens with only one person. It's going to
be tricky, and that's what you've been trying to do.
And so it's exhausting because you're doing the work of
(25:53):
two people, trying to mind read what you can do
to maybe get him to change, what you can do
to allow yourself to tolerate things more. When you said
it's been seven years and I don't want it to
be another seven years, we're in the same place. You
are on path of it being another seven years and
maybe another seventy. And because when couples need to recover
(26:17):
from an affair, from multiple affairs when they need to
rebuild trust. It's absolutely possible to do, except that it
requires two people working hard to create change. And you're exhausted,
and your husband hasn't broken a sweat, and he's showing
(26:37):
no signs of breaking a sweat. Even the admission that
the affairs have been with men he left up to you.
So I'm not hearing anything that would indicate to me
that he is willing to roll up his sleeves and
do the significant amount of work it would take to
get the relationship back on track. You cannot fix a
(26:59):
relationship by yourself.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Oh no, I think you're good.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So let's think about this.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Then.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Would you be open to an open relationshipship? No, so
you're clear on that.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, I cannot. It's not something that I want for myself.
I know that's just not who I am, So open
relationship is not an option for me.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
So you're very clear that you don't want to be
in an open relationship, but you're less clear about whether
you want to be in a relationship that is full
of betrayal.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
I don't know if that's true. I feel like I'm
clear to tell him that I'm not accepting of these behaviors,
that it hurts me. But I don't know if he
just doesn't care or if it just doesn't click. I'm
not sure.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It doesn't really matter whether he doesn't care or it
doesn't click. What matters is what you're left with. And
when you say I'm not accepting because it's so hurtful,
you are accepting, because not accepting means I won't tolerate it.
I'll leave if this continues. Accepting means I'll be really upset,
but I'll stay, And that's acceptance. I think part of
(28:10):
why this is the predicament that you're in is because
you're so isolated from any kind of social and emotional
support that you haven't spoken about this to anyone. You
have been left alone, perhaps by his prompting or by
your own feelings about it. But it's very difficult to
(28:33):
really be clear about things when you don't have a
sounding board. It's very difficult to really stay true to
the promises you give yourself when there is no one
to whom you have to be accountable, and so who
do you have that theoretically could be a source of
support for you?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I have a great family. I'm particularly close with my mom,
and at one point in one conversation, I was crying
to her and she's like, you know, what could it be?
Even in that moment, I couldn't bring myself my loyalty
to my husband, Like, couldn't even bring myself to tell
(29:13):
my mother, whom I'm so close with.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
You're calling that loyalty. I wonder if that's really what
loyalty is.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, and I have no issue. Is it loyalty? Is
it abuse?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
When someone's harming you emotionally on a repeated basis, it's
not loyalty to allow them to keep doing it.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Even today, he said to me, I will never leave you.
That's more than you can say.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Don't you feel left by him already? I'm not sure
how much he is showing up at all in your marriage.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Yeah, and you know I've made excuses for it, like, oh,
he suffers from a bad childhood, he has these hurts
and traumas. But you know, in the end, it's like
when you hurt someone, like you know you're hurting someone.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
He has the bad childhood and the trauma, But how
many blow jobs does he have to get over that?
Apparently quite a few and he's not done. And the
issue there is that he keeps orienting you towards what
you're doing to him, what his needs are, what his
feelings are. Your discussions are constantly about him, and if
(30:27):
it's about you, then it's in an accusatory way that well,
you know, you can't say that you would stay, or
you're being crazy, or you're out of control. He keeps
bringing it back to him and him and him and him,
And this is why you've gotten lost over seven years,
because he doesn't talk about you and your feelings. He
doesn't touch them other than to criticize you for having
(30:49):
them and for being hysterical about them, even though what
he's doing is so incredibly hurtful and provocative. He's telling
you that to be loyal to yourself, to be protective
of yourself, to prevent yourself from having further hurt, is
disloyal to him when he's the one causing the hurt,
and that is manipulation on his part, and it's up
(31:14):
to you to not fall for it.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Yeah, that's easier having done, guy.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I think the easier said than done part is that
you're so focused on his trauma. There's something going on
with you too, in the sense of feeling like you
will be validated if you can be the one to
save him, you will feel special, You will feel like
the chosen one, the person who had the power to
(31:42):
save him from something that you weren't even around for.
You weren't around for his childhood. I don't know if
you've looked enough inside in your individual work with the
therapist about what is it about me that feels like
if I just give enough love, this person will change.
What is it about your history that makes you believe that.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I mean, yeah, that's probably a whole other issue that
requires a whole other call.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Right, But the point is that you have some healing
to do too, not just from what happened here in
the present in your marriage, but maybe something that came
before that. You know, there's a saying that we marry
our unfinished business, and I think you both have married
your unfinished business, but you're not dealing with it, and
all the focus is on his unfinished business. But I
(32:35):
want you to think about making some room for yours,
because whatever happens with this relationship, or if you split
up and you end up in a different relationship, this
history that you're carrying around is going to come with you,
and you're not going to want to get into a
situation where you have this belief that you can fundamentally
change another person, because that won't be a happy relationship
(32:58):
for you. So, Lena, we have some ideas for you,
and it's in a couple of parts. Guy, why don't
you start We.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
See no evidence that your husband is going to change
his behavior. The fact that he held out for twelve
hours before violating the promise he gave you is not impressive.
When someone is really willing to make a change and
to take accountability for their actions. It's a very profound moment,
(33:38):
and he's not in the ballpark, and we're more concerned
about the fact that you might not be ready to
change either.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
I think you're right. I think that I am very
much holding on to the hope of change and I
don't want it to end. But I think if I've
ever been close to leaving, I am the closest now.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
We have some suggestions that might help you to increase
your readiness if that's what you decide to do, and
one of them is that it's easy to lose track
of what's really going on. Without having some kind of accountability.
(34:26):
We think you should choose somebody in your life where
the secret is out, meaning here's everything that is going
on on a day to day basis, because I think
that just as he can compartmentalize what's going on, you've
been compartmentalizing it too, and when things are better, you
kind of forget about the other stuff that's happening. And
(34:48):
so if you can find one person to whom you
tell everything, that person can help your perspective so that
you aren't just seeing things through your husband's eyes, but
that you have somebody who's seeing what is really going
on and can be a reminder to you. And while
you have that person, it's important that you have the
(35:09):
accountability to yourself too. And I wonder if you can
keep some kind of journal of everything that's going on,
so that whenever you have these moments of well, maybe
my love will save him or maybe it will change,
you can just open that journal and say, Okay, look
what happened in the last week, right, Look what happened
(35:31):
in the last two months after this promise was made
or that promise was made. And that way you really
have a record of what's going on that can serve
as a reality check for you.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
I've actually been keeping a journal of arguments and things
that have come up, and he's used that against me
as saying that I don't want to move forward because
I want to journal it and reflect on the path
and hold grudges.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
But here's the thing, Lena, anything you do is fodder
for him to criticize. Unless you are completely happy to
go along with whatever, then he has a criticism of
what you're doing. Whenever you think of what you can do,
you automatically imagine what his response would be, even if
(36:27):
he's not had it yet. Well, he'll say this, He'll
accuse me of that. You need to start doing what's
important for you and anticipate that he'll have criticisms. He'll
blame you, and when the time comes, he'll blame you
for the marriage not working out, not himself, because he
was willing to stick it out as long as he
can keep doing what he's doing. So there's no way
around that. But when you're journaling, did you write down
(36:49):
what happened and how you felt about it, or just
what happened.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
I try to be honest with myself. I try to
be unbiased. I try to write literally what happened?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Do you write down and when this happened, I felt blank?
When that happened, I felt blank blank. We would like
you to do that insert between every incident how it
made you feel in the moment thereafter, your emotional reality
is as an important reality as the facts of what
actually happened, and that's being missed right now in the journaling.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Now, just one other thing.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
We said that we want you to be transparent with
one person in your life, that there's one person who
cares about you that you don't hide your pain from.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Who can that be?
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Probably my best friend. I feel like she's very honest
and open with me.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
What have her thoughts been about what's going on.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
She's whatever you decide, I'll be here for you. She
doesn't really judge me. I mean, she obviously doesn't agree
with the behaviors or the actions, but she knows that
eventually all come to my terms and make a decision
for myself.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
And I think you have to preface this with her
by asking if she will take on that role with you,
because you want to let her know. There's a frame
for this, which is that I'm really struggling with this
and I feel like sometimes I lose perspective. Would you
be willing to let me tell you everything that's going
(38:31):
on so that when I do lose perspective, there's somebody
else who has been witnessed to this, even by proxy,
and she may say no, But if she says yes,
then she understands why you're telling her this. You're not
telling her this so that she can then bash your husband, right,
(38:51):
You're telling her this so that she can remind you
of some of your history and some of the things
that happen that you might be compartmentalizing.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Do you feel overloaded or do you think you can
take on one more task?
Speaker 4 (39:08):
No, I'm good, I can take it on.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
We would like you to write a description on what
life looks like in five years time if you're in
this marriage, and what life looks like in five years
time if you're not, And you should write those at
different times because they're different mindsets.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Okay, And when you write the one about what it's
like if I'm still in this marriage in five years,
we're basing that not on if something looks different from
how it is now, but how it is now and
how you feel about that still being in the marriage
five years from now.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Okay, So if it doesn't change and how it will
feel in five.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Years from now, right if no miracles occur, Okay?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
So with me finding my husband having texted women in
just within hours of being in counseling, I've kind of
already alluded to the fact that I'm done and I'm leaving,
and you know, he needs to basically be prepared for that.
And that's why I took the weekend away to really
(40:23):
gather my thoughts and what I want to do. And
this interview couldn't have came at a better time, honestly.
So that's really giving me a lot of perspective because
I don't want to stay here for another five years.
You know, I'm looking for the phones, email, wondering where
he's thatt Like, I don't want to be there. So
I feel like I already have that foot out the door.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
It's a toe, Elena, and it's not a full foot.
You have a toe out. We'd like you to add
some toes to that one toe.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I want to say one last thing. You're going to
try the things that we suggested and maybe it will
help you to come to a decision. And maybe it
won't if you do come to a decision. We haven't
given advice on how you might separate if that is
what you decide to do, so right now, we're just
asking you to get a few more toes in there,
(41:19):
try these things, and then report back to us and
let's see how much clarity you have at that point.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
Okay, thank you, Thank you guys for all of your questions.
It's really let me kind of re evaluate in delvent.
So I really appreciate your time that you've taken to
listen and hear me, so.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Thank you well, thank you, and just know that we're
cheering you on.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Thank you. That means a lot, honestly, thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
So it's interesting because she was very much on the
fence about it. She does have a toe.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Outside I would say a toe nail.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yes, it's a sliver of something. And I think for
people in these early stages of really solidifying a decision
to leave, it's very much a waffling back and forth.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
It's a whole process. People imagine that change is something
like you make a decision and then you change, and
so much emotional preparation for these kinds of decisions goes
into it, so people are thinking about it, but they
don't even really know that they're thinking about it, and
then they're in this contemplation stage, and then they're in
the preparation stage, which is where she is right now,
(42:30):
somewhere between contemplation and preparation. And then there has to
be the action phase, and then there's the maintenance phase.
Sometimes people will make a decision like I'm going to
stop having affairs or I'm going to leave this person,
but then the person texts them at three in the morning,
and the next thing I know, they're back in that relationship.
(42:50):
So that's the maintenance part. And so I think she's
very early on. She's been thinking about this for a while,
but I think she's still very early on in the process.
And what I would hope for her is to learn
more about herself and why she feels like she can
save this person and why that's important to her, and
why she would give up her selfhood in the service
(43:11):
of another person and get nothing in return. I think
those are things that she's going to have to explore
once she gets out of the situation, because it's so
clouded by the drama and the anxiety of what's going
to happen next, and where is he and why isn't
he home? You can't really think about yourself when all
you can think about is what's happening with him.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
And when you're in a relationship with somebody who gaslights,
there's a recovery you have to go through because your
perceptions have been distorted, your sense of self has been diminished,
and so it's a recovery. It's the exploration of why
she was prone to be in this situation in the
first place, what happened in her life that set her
up to be in this kind of situation. There's a
(43:56):
lot of work she has to do on herself right.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
One of the things that people realize when they're in
a long term relationship is that part of it is
about what the other person is doing, but part of
it is about the things that they haven't worked out
for themselves too.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
So when we talk to her next, what do you
think she's going to tell us.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
I think she's going to say that it was helpful
for her to have something on paper and to talk
to her friend, that it will be a relief in
some way. But I also think there's something that is
making her very afraid of leaving. Her entire world is him,
(44:34):
and so if he goes away, we don't think she
knows who she is outside of him.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I think that's very true, and I think that's very
scary for her. I also think that he has convinced
her that her leaving is an act of absolute betrayal.
So I'm not expecting something drastic to happen, but I
expect that when it does happen for her, it will
happen quickly. She says, you know, it was the last straw. Oh,
She's got lots more straws coming. But when it will
(45:00):
be the last straw, I think then she'll be like, Okay,
now there's no turning back.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I agree. I see so much in therapy that the
way people changes gradually and then suddenly, and I think
that will happen with her too. You're listening to Dear
Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a
quick break. I'm Guy Wench and I'm Laurie Gottlieb, and
(45:34):
this is Dear Therapist.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
So, Lauri, we heard from Elena and we gave her
a lot to do. So let's see how that went.
Speaker 4 (45:42):
So I took your instructions. And was documenting just things
and how it made me feel. And then also I
shared with a friend and then basically explained to the
counselor and my husband about where my line in the
sand was and what changes needed to happen if the
(46:06):
relationship were to continue. Obviously, when you do something like that,
then the person is naturally going to feel like they're
given an ultimatum, which makes them very defensive, and so
there was a lot of resistance with that. However, he's agreed,
(46:26):
and so we met with a specialist with I don't
want to say sex addiction, but in that area, you know,
and that was really enlightening and eye opening, and after
the conversation is even more now open to finding help
in that area, like a sponsor mentor to help hold
(46:49):
him accountable, and also someone who's maybe walked in his
shoes a little bit better where he can maybe confide in.
On a meeting with the sex counselor, his question is
is it an addiction or is it a choice that
I'm making because it's something of who I am and
(47:11):
what I enjoy and they're walking us through the stuffs like, Okay,
if it is, then that's fine, but you need to
be honest with your wife and yourself and say that's
the choice you're making. And that's something that isn't always
easy to hear because obviously you want people to choose you.
(47:34):
But at the end of the day, I love him
enough to not want him to be something that he's not.
We were talking in our therapy session. You know, you
always knew that it was wrong, Why did you keep
doing it? And he's like, maybe she might find out,
but she wouldn't leave. And now that I know that
(47:56):
this is this is her tolerant. Now I know I
have to either do something different or she will leave.
So that's kind of where we're at right now. Thank
you guys for your time and everything that you junk here.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
So I was really proud of her. I think that
given where she was and then what she accomplished in
just a couple of weeks, that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
What she's done is a huge step forward. She's not
fully there yet by any means, but she's tasted what
it's like to take the power back in the relationship
and in her life. And she didn't have that flavor
before and now she does. And so I'm hoping she
can do something with it.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
And there's this other piece that I think they both
have to do something with that they aren't really talking
about because they're focusing on the addiction and the monogamy,
which is is he bisexual or is he gay? And
is he really exploring that because it may be that
what he's struggling with is this Sophie's choice, that he
(49:02):
really loves Elena and wants to be with her, and
he may also be feeling like he has to push
down this other part of his identity which has to
do with his sexual orientation. And so it's not just
about are you going to stop the behavior, but it's
about what is actually going on here and are you
going to actively explore the roots of it now? Because
(49:25):
I am not okay with how things are going.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Well exactly, and I think that her not being okay
with how things are going has to continue in the
sense of the pressure that she puts on him to
continue or even perhaps begin that exploration, because now that
her eyes are open to what's going on, to what
the possibilities are, they also have to be open to
it's possible that that is going on with her husband
(49:50):
and if he's not exploring that, she has to push
him to do that.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, And I think that once people experience that kind
of eye opening, hey there's something else out there all
of a sudden, I think they build on that. And
so we were saying, maybe she had a toenail in
the water or a toe in the water. She's got
a couple of toes in the water, and I think
she's going to have her foot in the water very soon.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice
from the podcast in your own life, send us a
quick voice memo to Luridguy at iHeartMedia dot com and
tell us about it. We may include it in a
future show that brings us to the end of our
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If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to
(50:40):
rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small. Email us
at Loriianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to
our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. Next week, a man
estranged from his daughter for twenty five years wants a
chance to reconnect.
Speaker 5 (51:23):
She said, I changed my mind. I don't want you
to come to my wedding. And I just asked her,
why are.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
You doing this?
Speaker 5 (51:29):
And she said to me, you weren't there for my
teenage years, the last several years that I was growing up.
You just weren't in my life. I said, I wasn't
in your life because you kicked me out.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists. This week, a woman copes with her
husband's infidelity.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
It has come out and therapy that the relations have
been with men. However, my husband is very close off
and kind of just wanted to go away, listen.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
In and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partner
(03:21):
and full and we may edit it for length anden
of clarity.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Hey Guy, Hi Laurie.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
So what do we have today?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, we have a really compelling letter, so let me
get right to it, Dear therapists. I recently discovered that
my husband has been secretly meeting up with men for sex.
I discovered this about two months ago when I found
a secret email account that contained messages with multiple men
over the entire course of our seven year relationship. Before that,
(03:50):
I had slowly discovered pieces of this hidden life, starting
in August with messages to a woman. It sent me
into a frenzy looking through emails and trying to uncover
his unfaithfulness. I asked him about things I found, and
it was one line after another. I had already known
he had cheated and messaged women during our relationship, and
those were still hurts not healed. But now men, I
(04:11):
am shocked. I try to forgive and trust him, but
there is so much anger and tension between us. He
snaps at me if I ask where he's been, if
I ask about spam emails that are soliciting sex, if
he has been seeing any one when he comes home late.
I don't trust him. Our fights have increased, and so
has our mutual dislike. I want to try to save
our marriage, but I don't know if that's possible given
(04:33):
how much hurt there is. He states that I'm out
of control, crazy, unreasonable. He has no empathy for what
I'm going through. When I get upset and cry about it,
he says I'm selfish and throw him a fit. I'm
at a loss for what to do. I need my husband,
but he isn't there. He's built so many walls he
won't let me in. Our relationship is also complicated by
(04:54):
the fact that we are military, living overseas and are
away from the support of family and friends. I can't
discuss it with any one close to me or my
husband because I still care about his character and the
image he wants to display. The mental health support disavailable
to us is limited. We just recently found a therapist
to speak to, but he isn't even honest with her
(05:14):
about his affairs with men, and I don't feel it's
my right to share that information. But I need to
talk to someone that is the only therapist available to us. Here,
I am left with all this baggage and no one
to unload it to. I don't know. I wonder if
I'm out of control, if I'm crazy. I have thought
about leaving, but I don't want to leave. To be dramatic,
if I leave the relationship, I will be truly leaving
(05:36):
for good. I'm so emotionally exhausted and defeated. Please help Elena.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Wow, that is quite a tough situation, and I think.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
What strikes me most about it is that this woman
is in so much emotional pain and has been for
a while now.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, it's so common for people to wait when they
feel the first sign of pain, and they don't generally
get into our offices until the pain becomes unbearable, And
it sounds like that's why she wrote to us.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Now, so let's talk about the situation she's in, because
this has been going on for the entire length of
the relationship. He doesn't sound like he's interested in stopping
the behavior. He's incredibly defensive about discussing it.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
We see this all the time, where people come in
and somebody's had an affair, and I'm always looking to
see how willing the person who had the affair is
to talk about what happened. And what strikes me about
her letter is that her husband doesn't seem willing at
all to address what's going on, and in fact, he's
sort of gaslighting her he's making her sound crazy for
(06:45):
having a big emotional reaction to something that is really traumatic,
and he's acting like she's the problem. And I think
so often people do that because they have so much
shame around what they've done, and so they have to
turn it around on somebody else. And she's in this
really difficult position because not only is he doing that
to her, but she's so isolated where they're overseas, they're
(07:08):
not near any family or friends, and so she's starting
to question her own reality.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I think that's one of the most unfortunate aspects of
what's going on here. The thing about affairs is we've
both worked with many couples who've repaired their relationship after
an affair and truly gone on to thrive. It's absolutely dable,
and one of the basic ingredients you need for that
is for the person who's been doing the cheating to
at least take responsibility, at least be open minded and
(07:37):
hearing the anger, the pain, whatever they've caused emotionally to
the other person, and to really work to rebuild trust,
to reconnect, to renegotiate. And there's nothing here that indicates
any kind of willingness like that on her husband's part.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I agree with that to the point that she's colluding
with his dishonesty with the therapist, that she doesn't feel
comfortable telling the therapist about this new piece of information
that she discovered a few months ago about his affairs
with men, and I think she's so trying to protect him.
It's interesting too that he's not hiding his affairs with
(08:21):
women from the therapist, or at least it doesn't seem so,
but he's hiding his affairs from men. And people tend
to keep things secret from their therapists when they don't
want to change, because once they put that thing out there,
they know they're going to have to make some changes.
And I would guess that he's really struggling with what
(08:42):
would happen if he talked about his attraction to men.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Sometimes when you see somebody who's dealing with a lot
of shame, what they do is they compartmentalize. They put
it in a box and almost section it off from
their daily lives. They don't look at it themselves, they
don't think about it. And that's why he's not willing
to look or think about it with her, because he
hasn't been able to do that probably with himself either,
So I'm actually eager to speak with her.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, let's go talk to her.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after
a quick break.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb and.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Hi Elena, Lena, Hi, Well, thank you so much for
sharing your story with us. What a painful situation you're in.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Could you give us a little bit of a snapshot
of wear things on now?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Yeah, of course. So it has come out that the
relations have been with men. The therapist has tried to
kind of open up that subject and discuss it in
further detail. However, my husband is very closed off. He
kind of just wants it to go away. He doesn't
(09:57):
want to discuss it in detail. He acknowledges that it happened,
yet he doesn't want to talk about it. He just
kind of wants to forget about it.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
Elene.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I'm wondering how you guys got to therapy in the
first place. Was that your idea and he was open
to it or was he resistant to going to therapy?
Speaker 4 (10:15):
We both had discussed therapy, However, given our situation with
being overseas, it was very difficult to find help. I
was the one to call. I had told him, we
need to go to counseling. You know, what are you
doing to help the relationship? What are you doing to
try He was never making the phone calls, he was
(10:37):
never trying to find help for us, And that was
all on my part.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
How did it come up, this part about him having
affairs with men, because it sounded like that was a
secret before, and I'm wondering which of you brought that
up in therapy?
Speaker 4 (10:50):
So we see a therapist together, and then she suggested
seeing us individually. And so I was driving him to
work one day and he said, Hey, I know you
have your therapy session this morning. I think that it's
important that you mentioned the affairs are with men. I
(11:12):
was like, are you sure that's not something that you
want to tell and he's like, it doesn't really matter.
I think it's going to come out sooner or later,
so you know, if you want to say it, no,
it's fine. And so that's how that came out.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So he couldn't even really face saying it to the
therapist himself. He needed you to do that for him.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Yeah, even in my therapy session, and I was very
held back and I was still like, ah, should I
say it? Should I not say it? And I was like,
you know what this is really what's going on now?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
You know?
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And I think And then when he went into his
session later, then he knew that that had already been divulged,
and so maybe it was more comfortable talking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
You'ves have felt such relief having that out there.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah, because I haven't talked with this about anyone, Like literally,
I've not spoke to my family about it, my best friend,
I mean, no one. But to be able to finally
tell someone like this is what I found out. I
found these emails, I found the phone conversation, they separate
(12:20):
accounts like for seven years. Yeah, it was such a relief,
but also a lot to work through as well.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Has he expressed that he wants to stop having these
kinds of affairs with men and with women? Has he
expressed that intention very very clearly that I won't do
this or I'm going to try not to do this anymore?
What is he thinking the relationship needs to be able
to repair itself.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
That is a very tough question. I don't know how
to answer that because he views sex and affairs in
such a different light than I do, and he's in
our conversations that if I were to go have sex
with someone, then you know, good for me. I'm enjoying myself.
(13:17):
It's just sexual. So it's more or less that I
see it wrong. And so therefore because I see it strong,
then he's willing to change the behavior, not necessarily that
it's inappropriate or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, so he has a different standard and ethical value
about having sex than you do. I'm asking this question again.
He has said specifically, therefore I will not have any
outside sex again.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Correct. Yes, he stated that. Now since this has all
come out and we've been in therapy, I've found messages
again to other women, so not men in this case,
or not meeting up physically, but that same message sextain
seeking that validation through other means.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It sounds like this new information about what's been going
on for the last seven years was a surprise to you,
but that there were other affairs that also went on,
And I'm wondering how you guys talked about those. You
keep saying he just wants it all to go away,
and I wonder how you handled it in the past.
And also when you're in therapy, if he just wants
(14:36):
it to go away, then what does he think you're
doing in therapy? So you're trying to talk about this
big thing going on in your relationship, which is this
lack of trust, these different ideas about what the rules
are in the marriage. So what happens in that moment
when the two of you are there with the therapist, So.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
When it's just him and I, then there's that wall built,
that avoidancy of him not talking about it, shutting down,
refusing to discuss it, and eventually he'll leave the home
or the other where he's angry and super defensive and
I'm asking, you know, you came home late, where were you?
(15:15):
You didn't answer your phone, your phone was shut off
on him becoming super defensive. The other side of it
is when we're in therapy, it's like a twitch, Like
he'll talk about it and he'll say he feels attacked,
or he feels like he's disgusting, or he feels that
I find him disgusting, kind of working through how he
(15:39):
feels and putting those feelings onto how I see him,
even though I don't see him as disgusting or shameful?
Is just shocking.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
You say that your fights have increased, and so has
your mutual dislike. So I'm curious about what does work
between the two of you. What are the strengths of
the relationship. What are the things that are allowing you
to have stayed for.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
As long as you have?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Well, he's a super fun person, you know, He's the
type of person that anyone can connect with. And he's funny,
he loves to tell jokes, he's intelligent.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Those are qualities about him. But I'm wondering, what are
the things that he offers to you in the relationship
other than the pleasure of his company, other.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Things that he offers to me? Yes, I mean, I guess.
I don't know if I'm just caught off guard there
or if I just can't really comment on it.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Look, one of the questions that we have, Elena, is
what's keeping you in the relationship?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
You know, I think it's uh, I mean, I don't know, honestly.
What it is is my love for him, I don't know,
you know, we all have that, like we're going tom
or this brokenness, Like I'm just going to love him
enough that he sees what true love is. I feel
(17:17):
like maybe that's part of it, you know, like, if
I love him enough, then maybe hope realize that this
is a toxic behavior. It's very obviously unhealthy.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Well, right, I understand you feel well, if I just
stick in there and love the person enough, then they'll
come around in some kind of way. There's a lot
of a round that needs to be happening here. It's
a big arc we're talking about. As much as you're
paying attention to what's going on with him, are you
paying attention to what's going on with you?
Speaker 4 (17:53):
No, Like I think that I have lost a huge
part of myself. I remember the first time that I
found the first messages to a girl, and I remember
just bawling and being so hurt and shocked and everything.
And then now it's I find something that's just like
(18:16):
I'm numb to it, like, oh, I found something again,
you know, and you start to lose a part of yourself,
and it starts to become oh, it's not such big
of a deal. It's just messaging. Whereas in the beginning,
you know, like where your standard was. Absolutely I've lost
a part of myself. I've lost a huge amount of
(18:37):
self worth, of viewing myself as being enough. I feel
like I give so much to the relationship that I'm
left feeling empty and then like asking for a hug
or just reaching out for that affection because I feel
so neglected, and then hearing no, like no, I don't
(18:59):
want to give you a hugg right now, No, I
don't want to give you a section. Just feeling like
completely alone in all of it.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
You talked about out losing yourself, and I think part
of losing yourself as you start to question, well, is
he right? Am I crazy? Am I overreacting? And so
I wonder, how do you think a sane person would
respond to what's going on.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
I try to be very logical and reasonable in all
of our discussions, even when I'm talking to him and
I'm raising my voice and he says, look at you,
you're out of control. Like you're raising your voice. You're
completely out of control and thinking, Any sane person dealing
with these issues would have a raised voice. Any person
(19:45):
who has feelings would have a raised voice. I don't
think that I'm out of control.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
He keeps telling you that you're out of control, but
his behavior is so out of control and so his
presentation might look different from yours. Right, So you're reacting
to these big feelings that you're having as a result
of what's going on, and he's presenting himself as the
same as the one who's contained, as the one who's
(20:12):
in control. But his behavior says something else, don't you think?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yeah, I know, I absolutely agree. I think that often
he's kind of projecting, like, I know that this is
absurd behavior, but yeah, I'm going to project that upon you,
and I very much feel like he knows that it's astora,
he knows it's unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'm very glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
You are quite clear that even when your voice is
getting loud, given what's going on, you are entitled for
your voice to be getting loud.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And I'm so glad you see that.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
But in general, my concern is that he and the
relationship are somehow way atop your priority list, and you
and your emotional health, your feelings, your happiness is way
down on that list. Do you feel ready to put
yourself as a priority on that list.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
I've struggled with that, honestly, it wasn't until this last discovery.
So what happened is in the counselor side, where are
you at right now? And he said, I want to
work on a relationship. I'm ready to work on a relationship.
And then when he left, he gave me a big
hug and kisses and I felt better, but not hopeful.
(21:36):
And then literally twelve hours later, after we had left
our counseling session, I found messages yet again to another woman,
and I honestly think that that was the last straw.
And at what point is it going to be enough
for me to accept that I'm part of the pattern.
(21:57):
And in order to change the pattern, I need to
change my own behavior, and I'm trying to do that
right now. I'm trying to prioritize myself. I'm trying to
look in the few sure and see what do I want?
What are my goals? And is this something that I
want to continue for another seven years? Because it's really not.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You know, Elena, here's a similarity between you and your husband,
And I want to preface this by saying that change
is really hard, and you know that change is really
hard for your husband, but I also think change is
really hard for you, and you almost do to yourself
what your husband does to you. So he says I'm
going to change. I'm going to do something about this.
(22:44):
I want things to be better, and then he doesn't change,
and you do that with yourself. When guy was asking you,
are you ready to prioritize yourself? They think part of
you wants to just like part of your husband wants
to change, but another part of you isn't really keeping
that promise. So I imagine that what you're doing is
(23:04):
you're saying to yourself, you know, I'm going to prioritize myself.
I'm going to show up and be present in this
relationship in a way where I'm a real part of this.
I'm not reacting to it, but I'm participating. And I
think you make promises to yourself and then you don't
keep them. So you're doing to yourself what your husband
(23:24):
is doing to you too, which is I'm going to
help myself, and then you let yourself down. And what
Guy's asking is, are you ready to stop letting yourself down?
Are you ready to keep your promises to yourself?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
I mean yes, I want to keep promises to myself.
I feel like I'm so invested in a relationship it's
like to give up and to completely wash my hands
of it is such a hard thing for me to say.
I want to believe the best in him. I want
to believe that he can change. I want to believe
that when he says I'm sorry, I'll stop, that he
(24:00):
really means it. This time.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm less interested in whether he's going to stop, because
he hasn't shown you that he's going to do that.
But I just wonder what you think is going to
happen given the path that you're on. If you keep
going to couple's therapy and you both say you want
to quote, work on the relationship when you go to
(24:23):
couple's therapy, that's not a specific enough goal. When people
come in and they say I want to work on
the relationship, that means nothing to a couple's therapist. What
we want to hear as couple's therapists is we want
to hear what is each of you going to do
to make the relationship better. Not to get the other
person to change, not to get the other person to
(24:44):
do something differently, but what are you each going to
do individually to make things better? But if you have
this vague goal of we want to work on the relationship,
and then you keep doing the same things over and over.
I don't see how this is going to change, and
I wonder how you do.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
I don't feel like I know what to do to
change other than the relationship. Is that the only outcome. Like,
I am open to suggestions, and I am open to
working on myself. I'm just thoroughly exhausted. I'm exhausted, you know,
(25:23):
from joining through phones, from all the worry and everything.
I don't know what else to do.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Look, you have very good reason to be exhausted, because
you've been trying to fix something that takes two people
by yourself. It's like trying to mount one of those
giant TV screens with only one person. It's going to
be tricky, and that's what you've been trying to do.
And so it's exhausting because you're doing the work of
(25:53):
two people, trying to mind read what you can do
to maybe get him to change, what you can do
to allow yourself to tolerate things more. When you said
it's been seven years and I don't want it to
be another seven years, we're in the same place. You
are on path of it being another seven years and
maybe another seventy. And because when couples need to recover
(26:17):
from an affair, from multiple affairs when they need to
rebuild trust. It's absolutely possible to do, except that it
requires two people working hard to create change. And you're exhausted,
and your husband hasn't broken a sweat, and he's showing
(26:37):
no signs of breaking a sweat. Even the admission that
the affairs have been with men he left up to you.
So I'm not hearing anything that would indicate to me
that he is willing to roll up his sleeves and
do the significant amount of work it would take to
get the relationship back on track. You cannot fix a
(26:59):
relationship by yourself.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Oh no, I think you're good.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So let's think about this.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Then.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Would you be open to an open relationshipship? No, so
you're clear on that.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, I cannot. It's not something that I want for myself.
I know that's just not who I am, So open
relationship is not an option for me.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
So you're very clear that you don't want to be
in an open relationship, but you're less clear about whether
you want to be in a relationship that is full
of betrayal.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
I don't know if that's true. I feel like I'm
clear to tell him that I'm not accepting of these behaviors,
that it hurts me. But I don't know if he
just doesn't care or if it just doesn't click. I'm
not sure.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It doesn't really matter whether he doesn't care or it
doesn't click. What matters is what you're left with. And
when you say I'm not accepting because it's so hurtful,
you are accepting, because not accepting means I won't tolerate it.
I'll leave if this continues. Accepting means I'll be really upset,
but I'll stay, And that's acceptance. I think part of
(28:10):
why this is the predicament that you're in is because
you're so isolated from any kind of social and emotional
support that you haven't spoken about this to anyone. You
have been left alone, perhaps by his prompting or by
your own feelings about it. But it's very difficult to
(28:33):
really be clear about things when you don't have a
sounding board. It's very difficult to really stay true to
the promises you give yourself when there is no one
to whom you have to be accountable, and so who
do you have that theoretically could be a source of
support for you?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I have a great family. I'm particularly close with my mom,
and at one point in one conversation, I was crying
to her and she's like, you know, what could it be?
Even in that moment, I couldn't bring myself my loyalty
to my husband, Like, couldn't even bring myself to tell
(29:13):
my mother, whom I'm so close with.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
You're calling that loyalty. I wonder if that's really what
loyalty is.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, and I have no issue. Is it loyalty? Is
it abuse?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
When someone's harming you emotionally on a repeated basis, it's
not loyalty to allow them to keep doing it.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Even today, he said to me, I will never leave you.
That's more than you can say.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Don't you feel left by him already? I'm not sure
how much he is showing up at all in your marriage.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Yeah, and you know I've made excuses for it, like, oh,
he suffers from a bad childhood, he has these hurts
and traumas. But you know, in the end, it's like
when you hurt someone, like you know you're hurting someone.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
He has the bad childhood and the trauma, But how
many blow jobs does he have to get over that?
Apparently quite a few and he's not done. And the
issue there is that he keeps orienting you towards what
you're doing to him, what his needs are, what his
feelings are. Your discussions are constantly about him, and if
(30:27):
it's about you, then it's in an accusatory way that well,
you know, you can't say that you would stay, or
you're being crazy, or you're out of control. He keeps
bringing it back to him and him and him and him,
And this is why you've gotten lost over seven years,
because he doesn't talk about you and your feelings. He
doesn't touch them other than to criticize you for having
(30:49):
them and for being hysterical about them, even though what
he's doing is so incredibly hurtful and provocative. He's telling
you that to be loyal to yourself, to be protective
of yourself, to prevent yourself from having further hurt, is
disloyal to him when he's the one causing the hurt,
and that is manipulation on his part, and it's up
(31:14):
to you to not fall for it.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Yeah, that's easier having done, guy.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I think the easier said than done part is that
you're so focused on his trauma. There's something going on
with you too, in the sense of feeling like you
will be validated if you can be the one to
save him, you will feel special, You will feel like
the chosen one, the person who had the power to
(31:42):
save him from something that you weren't even around for.
You weren't around for his childhood. I don't know if
you've looked enough inside in your individual work with the
therapist about what is it about me that feels like
if I just give enough love, this person will change.
What is it about your history that makes you believe that.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I mean, yeah, that's probably a whole other issue that
requires a whole other call.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Right, But the point is that you have some healing
to do too, not just from what happened here in
the present in your marriage, but maybe something that came
before that. You know, there's a saying that we marry
our unfinished business, and I think you both have married
your unfinished business, but you're not dealing with it, and
all the focus is on his unfinished business. But I
(32:35):
want you to think about making some room for yours,
because whatever happens with this relationship, or if you split
up and you end up in a different relationship, this
history that you're carrying around is going to come with you,
and you're not going to want to get into a
situation where you have this belief that you can fundamentally
change another person, because that won't be a happy relationship
(32:58):
for you. So, Lena, we have some ideas for you,
and it's in a couple of parts. Guy, why don't
you start We.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
See no evidence that your husband is going to change
his behavior. The fact that he held out for twelve
hours before violating the promise he gave you is not impressive.
When someone is really willing to make a change and
to take accountability for their actions. It's a very profound moment,
(33:38):
and he's not in the ballpark, and we're more concerned
about the fact that you might not be ready to
change either.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
I think you're right. I think that I am very
much holding on to the hope of change and I
don't want it to end. But I think if I've
ever been close to leaving, I am the closest now.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
We have some suggestions that might help you to increase
your readiness if that's what you decide to do, and
one of them is that it's easy to lose track
of what's really going on. Without having some kind of accountability.
(34:26):
We think you should choose somebody in your life where
the secret is out, meaning here's everything that is going
on on a day to day basis, because I think
that just as he can compartmentalize what's going on, you've
been compartmentalizing it too, and when things are better, you
kind of forget about the other stuff that's happening. And
(34:48):
so if you can find one person to whom you
tell everything, that person can help your perspective so that
you aren't just seeing things through your husband's eyes, but
that you have somebody who's seeing what is really going
on and can be a reminder to you. And while
you have that person, it's important that you have the
(35:09):
accountability to yourself too. And I wonder if you can
keep some kind of journal of everything that's going on,
so that whenever you have these moments of well, maybe
my love will save him or maybe it will change,
you can just open that journal and say, Okay, look
what happened in the last week, right, Look what happened
(35:31):
in the last two months after this promise was made
or that promise was made. And that way you really
have a record of what's going on that can serve
as a reality check for you.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
I've actually been keeping a journal of arguments and things
that have come up, and he's used that against me
as saying that I don't want to move forward because
I want to journal it and reflect on the path
and hold grudges.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
But here's the thing, Lena, anything you do is fodder
for him to criticize. Unless you are completely happy to
go along with whatever, then he has a criticism of
what you're doing. Whenever you think of what you can do,
you automatically imagine what his response would be, even if
(36:27):
he's not had it yet. Well, he'll say this, He'll
accuse me of that. You need to start doing what's
important for you and anticipate that he'll have criticisms. He'll
blame you, and when the time comes, he'll blame you
for the marriage not working out, not himself, because he
was willing to stick it out as long as he
can keep doing what he's doing. So there's no way
around that. But when you're journaling, did you write down
(36:49):
what happened and how you felt about it, or just
what happened.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
I try to be honest with myself. I try to
be unbiased. I try to write literally what happened?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Do you write down and when this happened, I felt blank?
When that happened, I felt blank blank. We would like
you to do that insert between every incident how it
made you feel in the moment thereafter, your emotional reality
is as an important reality as the facts of what
actually happened, and that's being missed right now in the journaling.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Now, just one other thing.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
We said that we want you to be transparent with
one person in your life, that there's one person who
cares about you that you don't hide your pain from.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Who can that be?
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Probably my best friend. I feel like she's very honest
and open with me.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
What have her thoughts been about what's going on.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
She's whatever you decide, I'll be here for you. She
doesn't really judge me. I mean, she obviously doesn't agree
with the behaviors or the actions, but she knows that
eventually all come to my terms and make a decision
for myself.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
And I think you have to preface this with her
by asking if she will take on that role with you,
because you want to let her know. There's a frame
for this, which is that I'm really struggling with this
and I feel like sometimes I lose perspective. Would you
be willing to let me tell you everything that's going
(38:31):
on so that when I do lose perspective, there's somebody
else who has been witnessed to this, even by proxy,
and she may say no, But if she says yes,
then she understands why you're telling her this. You're not
telling her this so that she can then bash your husband, right,
(38:51):
You're telling her this so that she can remind you
of some of your history and some of the things
that happen that you might be compartmentalizing.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Do you feel overloaded or do you think you can
take on one more task?
Speaker 4 (39:08):
No, I'm good, I can take it on.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
We would like you to write a description on what
life looks like in five years time if you're in
this marriage, and what life looks like in five years
time if you're not, And you should write those at
different times because they're different mindsets.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Okay, And when you write the one about what it's
like if I'm still in this marriage in five years,
we're basing that not on if something looks different from
how it is now, but how it is now and
how you feel about that still being in the marriage
five years from now.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Okay, So if it doesn't change and how it will
feel in five.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Years from now, right if no miracles occur, Okay?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
So with me finding my husband having texted women in
just within hours of being in counseling, I've kind of
already alluded to the fact that I'm done and I'm leaving,
and you know, he needs to basically be prepared for that.
And that's why I took the weekend away to really
(40:23):
gather my thoughts and what I want to do. And
this interview couldn't have came at a better time, honestly.
So that's really giving me a lot of perspective because
I don't want to stay here for another five years.
You know, I'm looking for the phones, email, wondering where
he's thatt Like, I don't want to be there. So
I feel like I already have that foot out the door.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
It's a toe, Elena, and it's not a full foot.
You have a toe out. We'd like you to add
some toes to that one toe.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I want to say one last thing. You're going to
try the things that we suggested and maybe it will
help you to come to a decision. And maybe it
won't if you do come to a decision. We haven't
given advice on how you might separate if that is
what you decide to do, so right now, we're just
asking you to get a few more toes in there,
(41:19):
try these things, and then report back to us and
let's see how much clarity you have at that point.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
Okay, thank you, Thank you guys for all of your questions.
It's really let me kind of re evaluate in delvent.
So I really appreciate your time that you've taken to
listen and hear me, so.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Thank you well, thank you, and just know that we're
cheering you on.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Thank you. That means a lot, honestly, thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
So it's interesting because she was very much on the
fence about it. She does have a toe.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Outside I would say a toe nail.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yes, it's a sliver of something. And I think for
people in these early stages of really solidifying a decision
to leave, it's very much a waffling back and forth.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
It's a whole process. People imagine that change is something
like you make a decision and then you change, and
so much emotional preparation for these kinds of decisions goes
into it, so people are thinking about it, but they
don't even really know that they're thinking about it, and
then they're in this contemplation stage, and then they're in
the preparation stage, which is where she is right now,
(42:30):
somewhere between contemplation and preparation. And then there has to
be the action phase, and then there's the maintenance phase.
Sometimes people will make a decision like I'm going to
stop having affairs or I'm going to leave this person,
but then the person texts them at three in the morning,
and the next thing I know, they're back in that relationship.
(42:50):
So that's the maintenance part. And so I think she's
very early on. She's been thinking about this for a while,
but I think she's still very early on in the process.
And what I would hope for her is to learn
more about herself and why she feels like she can
save this person and why that's important to her, and
why she would give up her selfhood in the service
(43:11):
of another person and get nothing in return. I think
those are things that she's going to have to explore
once she gets out of the situation, because it's so
clouded by the drama and the anxiety of what's going
to happen next, and where is he and why isn't
he home? You can't really think about yourself when all
you can think about is what's happening with him.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
And when you're in a relationship with somebody who gaslights,
there's a recovery you have to go through because your
perceptions have been distorted, your sense of self has been diminished,
and so it's a recovery. It's the exploration of why
she was prone to be in this situation in the
first place, what happened in her life that set her
up to be in this kind of situation. There's a
(43:56):
lot of work she has to do on herself right.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
One of the things that people realize when they're in
a long term relationship is that part of it is
about what the other person is doing, but part of
it is about the things that they haven't worked out
for themselves too.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
So when we talk to her next, what do you
think she's going to tell us.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
I think she's going to say that it was helpful
for her to have something on paper and to talk
to her friend, that it will be a relief in
some way. But I also think there's something that is
making her very afraid of leaving. Her entire world is him,
(44:34):
and so if he goes away, we don't think she
knows who she is outside of him.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I think that's very true, and I think that's very
scary for her. I also think that he has convinced
her that her leaving is an act of absolute betrayal.
So I'm not expecting something drastic to happen, but I
expect that when it does happen for her, it will
happen quickly. She says, you know, it was the last straw. Oh,
She's got lots more straws coming. But when it will
(45:00):
be the last straw, I think then she'll be like, Okay,
now there's no turning back.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I agree. I see so much in therapy that the
way people changes gradually and then suddenly, and I think
that will happen with her too. You're listening to Dear
Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a
quick break. I'm Guy Wench and I'm Laurie Gottlieb, and
(45:34):
this is Dear Therapist.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
So, Lauri, we heard from Elena and we gave her
a lot to do. So let's see how that went.
Speaker 4 (45:42):
So I took your instructions. And was documenting just things
and how it made me feel. And then also I
shared with a friend and then basically explained to the
counselor and my husband about where my line in the
sand was and what changes needed to happen if the
(46:06):
relationship were to continue. Obviously, when you do something like that,
then the person is naturally going to feel like they're
given an ultimatum, which makes them very defensive, and so
there was a lot of resistance with that. However, he's agreed,
(46:26):
and so we met with a specialist with I don't
want to say sex addiction, but in that area, you know,
and that was really enlightening and eye opening, and after
the conversation is even more now open to finding help
in that area, like a sponsor mentor to help hold
(46:49):
him accountable, and also someone who's maybe walked in his
shoes a little bit better where he can maybe confide in.
On a meeting with the sex counselor, his question is
is it an addiction or is it a choice that
I'm making because it's something of who I am and
(47:11):
what I enjoy and they're walking us through the stuffs like, Okay,
if it is, then that's fine, but you need to
be honest with your wife and yourself and say that's
the choice you're making. And that's something that isn't always
easy to hear because obviously you want people to choose you.
(47:34):
But at the end of the day, I love him
enough to not want him to be something that he's not.
We were talking in our therapy session. You know, you
always knew that it was wrong, Why did you keep
doing it? And he's like, maybe she might find out,
but she wouldn't leave. And now that I know that
(47:56):
this is this is her tolerant. Now I know I
have to either do something different or she will leave.
So that's kind of where we're at right now. Thank
you guys for your time and everything that you junk here.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
So I was really proud of her. I think that
given where she was and then what she accomplished in
just a couple of weeks, that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
What she's done is a huge step forward. She's not
fully there yet by any means, but she's tasted what
it's like to take the power back in the relationship
and in her life. And she didn't have that flavor
before and now she does. And so I'm hoping she
can do something with it.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
And there's this other piece that I think they both
have to do something with that they aren't really talking
about because they're focusing on the addiction and the monogamy,
which is is he bisexual or is he gay? And
is he really exploring that because it may be that
what he's struggling with is this Sophie's choice, that he
(49:02):
really loves Elena and wants to be with her, and
he may also be feeling like he has to push
down this other part of his identity which has to
do with his sexual orientation. And so it's not just
about are you going to stop the behavior, but it's
about what is actually going on here and are you
going to actively explore the roots of it now? Because
(49:25):
I am not okay with how things are going.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Well exactly, and I think that her not being okay
with how things are going has to continue in the
sense of the pressure that she puts on him to
continue or even perhaps begin that exploration, because now that
her eyes are open to what's going on, to what
the possibilities are, they also have to be open to
it's possible that that is going on with her husband
(49:50):
and if he's not exploring that, she has to push
him to do that.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, And I think that once people experience that kind
of eye opening, hey there's something else out there all
of a sudden, I think they build on that. And
so we were saying, maybe she had a toenail in
the water or a toe in the water. She's got
a couple of toes in the water, and I think
she's going to have her foot in the water very soon.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice
from the podcast in your own life, send us a
quick voice memo to Luridguy at iHeartMedia dot com and
tell us about it. We may include it in a
future show that brings us to the end of our
show for this week, Thank you so much for listening.
If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to
(50:40):
rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small. Email us
at Loriianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to
our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. Next week, a man
estranged from his daughter for twenty five years wants a
chance to reconnect.
Speaker 5 (51:23):
She said, I changed my mind. I don't want you
to come to my wedding. And I just asked her,
why are.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
You doing this?
Speaker 5 (51:29):
And she said to me, you weren't there for my
teenage years, the last several years that I was growing up.
You just weren't in my life. I said, I wasn't
in your life because you kicked me out.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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