December 24, 2024 • 58 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week we’re in session with Mark, who is dealing with a lot of regret after losing the woman he loves. He wonders if he might be able to get her back now that he is working on the issues that caused her to leave, and we help him navigate a path forward.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a young man seeks our counsel on whether to try
to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I
know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and
you know I told I don't have to have a
drink again.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, dignosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:11):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So, Hi Guy, Hey Lourie, what do we have today?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Today? We have a letter about a breakup and some regret,
and it goes like this, Dear therapists, My girlfriend and
I recently split up after a one year relationship. This
is my second long term relationship. The other lasted about
three years. Yet I find myself way more upset about
the breakup this time around. The worst part of it
(01:50):
all is that we are both still in love with
each other, but because of a few of my actions,
we have split up. Now, we have been broken up
for close to three weeks, and I am wondering whether
or not you think I should just shut the door
on a comeback. I understand that what I did was wrong,
like saying rude things to her when I would be drunk,
and that caused her sadness. But I also know that
she still loves me and is also extremely broken up
(02:13):
about this. She says she needs time to heal, but
I also don't want her moving on and finding someone else.
She tells me that I'm her first real love. So
I just have this feeling of hope for a reconciliation
that I'm holding on to. A lot of issues from
my first relationship have carried over to this one, and
it's been unfair to her, and I understand that. But
(02:33):
a lot of the issues are things that I just
came to terms with and I'm starting to understand now.
Thank you all for your help.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Mark Well, this issue of couples who break up and
want to consider trying again is really common and we
see that a lot in our therapy offices. And the
principle that's the most important is if you're going to
do it again, a both people have to want to
but B you have to figure out what wasn't working
and how are you going to do it differently? Just
(03:02):
one thing, to do things again, but not really understanding
what needs to be different and what to change almost
inevitably leads to the same problems happening and the breakup
just happening again.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Well, that's right, and he said he's just coming to
terms with those things now to one thing to have
the insight, it's another thing to be able to act
on it. So we always like to say that insight
is the booby prize of therapy. That you can have
all the insight in the world, but if you don't
make changes out in the world, the insight is useless.
So is he ready to use the insight that he
has and put it into action in the relationship? And
(03:34):
what is she willing to do? How much time is
she willing to invest in this as he tries to
come to terms with some things from the past.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Right, And are they able to work together to navigate
these waters, because they're going to have to communicate and
be very clear about how to avoid the icebergs that
already failed them once. So let's go talk to him
and see what this is about.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Let's do that.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
You're listening to deotherapists from Iheartradial. We'll be back after
a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench
and this is THEO Therapist. So Monk, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Thank you, Thank you guys for having me and taking time.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Mark Monk tell us a little bit about the relationship,
how you met, how old you were, how it went,
and were things are today?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Sure? So we met summer of twenty nineteen. I was
twenty four, she was twenty two, so two your difference.
She knew who I was because we went to the
same school. One of our mutual friends like introduced us
right off the bat, like we had a connection. It's
like we hung out towards the end of that summer,
and then she was going back to school. I was
(04:52):
coming off like a longer, like three year relationship. I
was probably six months removed from this relationship at this point.
I necessarily wasn't ready for another leadership. So she goes
back to school. We still communicate. She starts like leaving
school during weekends like to come see me. Clearly, it's like,
(05:14):
what's progressing more than either of us have pretty much expected.
So then we fast forward to the next summer, and
we both had rental houses for the summer near each other.
We're spending every weekend together. I would just stay down
there and make a long commute in the morning. I
would drive like an hour to work an hour back,
you know, So they almost like living together at this point.
(05:38):
We were together all summer, not official of course that
came at the end of the summer, when like we
were like, yeah, all right, we could uh take this
to the next step.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
You know when you say not official, you had been
dating for a year at that point and it was
still not official.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
No, No, we were, I would say, exclusive to each other,
you know, talking every day, so you know everything about
the title. I feel like the title at this point
was just like something in my head, like I had
gone through a really long relationship that didn't pan out,
and it was like a super stressful situation for me.
So I just felt like with the title came all
(06:13):
these added expectations and all this external pressure that I
wasn't ready for.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Sounds like you were dating for about a year in
this way where it wasn't really defined what actually made
it official between the two of you, where it was
directly communicated between the two of you that it was official.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
What changed that was just like simply me like asking
her to be my girlfriend. Our day to day nothing
really changed, you know, we talked all day every day,
We hung out every weekend. After the summer ended, our
leases ended for that for the summer, and then she
was moving out because she had graduated school at this point.
So basically throughout that whole process, I was, you know,
(06:57):
there helping her every step of the way, like I
was building all furniture for her house. At this point,
our relationship was gone, you know, I'd say, very well.
So fast forward a few weeks after that. This is
where like our issues like arise. One night when we
were out drinking, I got a little too drunk and
then I said some like mean things to her, like
(07:18):
I had gotten really drunk and for some reason I
had called her slot. These weren't like thoughts I have
of her, like I think the most of her. I
don't know where that came from at this time, and
obviously she was super upsett me, like how could you
say that to me? Like you're dating me? Like why
would you say that? And like I didn't have any
you know, explanation. I had no idea where that came from.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Had that ever happened before where you drink too much
and said things that you regretted later and that were
kind of inexplicable to you.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Back in school? I mean, it would happen, but like
I never had said that to my ex girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
When it happened back in school. What did you say,
and to whom it.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Would just be like my friends, like we would just
like get mad and get an argument, just like it
was never never anything to this point, you know, never
anything like a like a personal attack like that. It
was never something like I had to wake up the
next day and like I was like, wow, I can't believe,
like I said that.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Did it happen often or how often? Would you say
it would happen?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Not often? Not often at all?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
And with her, was this the first time that this
had happened.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Yeah, this was the first time this happened. And then
I guess like two or three weeks after that, it
happened again, and it got to the point it happened
like four times, five times, and obviously like she was
fed up this whole time, like she was trying to
get me to go to therapy because we realized, like
my first relationship there was like a lot of it
(08:43):
just like wasn't a healthy relationship at all, And that
was my first ever relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
After it happened the first time, how did the two
of you talk about it and move past that?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
She was obviously very upset. I apologized to her, I
told you, like it won't happen again. Obviously that didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So after it happened the second time, what happened between
the two of you. I want to hear what happened
each time and how the two of you dealt with it.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
The second time, she got super upset. I apologize, I said, like,
I know, I said it would have happened. I don't
know why it happened. And then after the second time
is when I started going to therapy. Actually because I realized,
I told her, I was like, listen, I'm gonna go
with therapy. I'm going to try to like get to
the rut of this problem. Like, clearly there's something you
know going on.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Did you consider motivating the drinking since it was directly
tied to of a drinking.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yes, and it didn't work. But now ever, since you know,
we broke up for like this last you know, it's
close to two months now, the drinking has been very limited.
I've you know, keeping control of myself. I'm you know,
doing things that my therapists told me to do and
I've let her know to and you know, she does
say she's proud of me, like or the progress I've
(09:54):
made was.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The drinking something that had been problematic for you.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Before this, I'd say I would definitely always have, you know,
been a drinker. Just the environment I'm in, people I
go out whatever, like you know, we're very like social group,
so I definitely like I'm exposed to it a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Did you feel like when you were drinking, that you
were drinking to a point that you would not be
in control of yourself, that that was a regular thing.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yeah, honestly, as bad as it sound like, it kind
of was to the point where it was like a
regular thing. It's not like I would wake up and
like want a drink, you know, it would just be
a Friday Saturday thing. We go out all together. The
thing that changed was in the summer, we me and
her went out together all the time, and like I
did drink then too, and she drinks as well. But
(10:46):
it was never an issue. So that's like why I've
been so confused about situation, because one day it happened,
and it's like it opened the gates and then led
it happening multiple times.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Was she able to tell you what because you don't
have the recollection of what happened? Was she able to
describe to you what happened that led you to Kotors.
In each of those cases, she.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Would say like out of nowhere, like and I know,
one day it happened and my best friends were there,
and so that was the first time it happened where
other people like heard it. It was extremely embarrassing, Like
it was just like really sad, you know, because then
I had my best friend for like fifteen years. At
(11:29):
this point, it's just been like I've never like seen
you like say or do anything like that, Like that's
so completely out of character for you.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
How long have you been seeing a therapist at.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
This point, about two months?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And what has that been like for you in terms
of understanding more about what might be going on.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Honestly, I love it. It's just like good to talk to someone,
you know. Therapy has never been something like I would
like thought I would do myself, you know. I always
thought I had everything pretty under control, but obviously that's
not the case. It's definitely been good. It's a good outlet.
I've been like journaling a lot, listening to the podcast
that I've listened to all the episodes, you know, it's
(12:08):
definitely been super helpful. I've realized a lot of the
issues have stemmed from that first relationship I was in
just because it was my first relationship, and like I was,
I guess that's how I viewed how a relationship like
that's like normal things, you know, when in reality it
wasn't necessarily normal.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Can you tell us a little bit about that relationship.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Sure, So it was my second year of college. I
met this girl. I met her in class, and we
were together on and off until a year after graduation
pretty much, so like three years. It was a pretty
crazy relationship. Like, for example, we started dating and literally
the weekend we started dating, one of my friends was
(12:52):
out with her and sent me pictures of her with
like another guy already. So like the first weekend, right
off the bat, my first real real relationship, Like that's
what I was like greeted by, you know, and that
was like lingered over our relationship the whole time, and
like that gave me like some serious trust issues.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well how did you handle that? When that happened?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I got the pictures, and like I it was late
at night, I couldn't sleep all night. The next day
she was actually working. I drove to her job to
talk to her about it. She blamed on her being
too drunk and like she didn't remember it, and I
was able to forgive her. But those trust issues definitely
lasted the whole relationship. I was always you know, questioning things,
(13:36):
and like I never like fully trusted her.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Did that girlfriend continue to hook up with other guys
or was it a one time incident that left you
feeling distrustful throughout the relationship?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, so it was definitely a one time incident from
what I know. Of course, we just like had a
lot of issues in that relationship because she was a bartender,
I like the popular bar school. I feel like that
was like the cloud on that relationship for pretty much
the whole time. Why was that a cloud, I guess
just like insecurities, just like trust issues between us mutual.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Did she have trust issues with you as well?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
No, not that I know of I don't think so.
I never like cheated on or did anything. You know.
I always like gave her full access to anything she wanted.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
When you say you gave her full access to anything
she wanted? Was she questioning you?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
No blake? If she ever felt uneasy about something or
like someone I would if she wanted, like see certain
text messages, I would show her like I never really
had anything to hide from her.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
In that it sounds like she did have some trust
issues if she was asking to see some text messages.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
She never did specifically, but like as a way for
me to prove, you know, my innocence, not that she
was like assuming I was doing things. Well.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I guess what I'm saying is in a relationship where
there's trust, people are not needing to prove their innocence. Yeah,
And so it sounds like something happened between the two
of you where she communicated in some way that she
wasn't sure she could trust you, and then you said no, no, no,
you can let me show you these text messages.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
I think it's more so my trust issues with her.
I would ask to see something, and I guess as
a way to just like even the playing field, like
she would like catch me slippy anyway?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Did she have transparency as well? Man? But she's saying, sure,
here's my phone, whatever you want. Yeah, she did. So
what was other than that first weekend? What else was
happening there that maintained the distress?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Well? For example, one time I saw a text from
one of her coworkers and I asked her, like if
I could see more about it, and then like when
I looked into the phone, it was like the coworker
asking her to go on a date, and like her
saying like yeah, And then when I questioned her about it,
she was just like, oh no, like we never did that,
like we're just like friends. She never did go on
(16:02):
this date, but like, no one does this, like no
one texts your friends.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
She said yes to the date, So that's the problem. Yeah, right,
so there was definitely stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
That was going on, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And how did you deal with that with her?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
I was like, I'm gonna lookout for this coworker, Like
I started hanging out with her friend grew more and
like I eventually was friends with him, but like it
was still just something uneasy to see that.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But you were friends with a guy who asked your
girlfriend out while he knew you were with her.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, like not like best friends, but like if I
went to an event with her friends, like he would
be there.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
It's interesting that you said there was that one incident
which happened early on, and then you said there was
nothing else that would make you distrust her throughout the relationship,
and yet here's an example. Somebody asked her out, which
that's fine because that's not her doing. But then she
said yes, And whether she went or not is kind
of irrelevant because she said yes to a date. So
(17:01):
it sounds like there was more than one incident, and
can you tell us about others?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Sure? So the kid that she cheated on me with
that first weekend, he came to school with us, so,
like we would see him around like a fair amount.
So he was always like obviously like on the back
of the mind. She like made it clear she was interested,
blocked him on everything. But there would be times where
she'd be bartending and I would see him like go
(17:28):
up here and talk to her, and obviously I would react,
come on, like what are you doing and she's like, oh,
I'm just doing my job, when in reality like it
to me, obviously, it seems like it was more than that.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
When you saw the text that she had said yes
to the date, what was the conversation like between the
two of you. So she said, well, I didn't go
on it, so it's okay, but obviously it wasn't okay
with you. How did you talk to her about that?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, So I pretty much just like made it clear,
like I was, like, no one says yes to go
on a day, Like it's not like a like a
friendly joke or something like that. And she like understood why.
I was like disappointed and mad at her about it.
And I mean after that, nothing really came of it.
I just like let it go.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And you know, did she apologize to you and did
she understand why this was creating distrust?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yes, she did apologize. I was mad at her for
like a week or so, if I remember correctly, and
she definitely apologized and like felt really bad about it.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
The thing is, you're dating a popular about tender who's
at the center of the social scene. And so there
are these two guys, the guy she hooked up with
and the other guy from work that you know there
was a hook up in the flirtation with and you
even saw in social events. The other guy go up
to her and she cames, well, understoying my job. He's
coming up to the bar. I got to talk to him.
But she's about tender. You've got to see a lot
(18:43):
of guys talking to her. That had to be a
question in your mind. Every time she's talking to someone,
what about this one what about this one? How did
you manage that over the relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, so obviously that's where a lot of our problems,
you know, came from. In that relationship. It was never easy,
but eventually, like it got to me that it's her job,
and I had to trust her as much as I could.
A lot of the nights I was there at the bar,
it was never anything like out of the ordinary, Like
(19:15):
at that point, I had just like become accustomed to it.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
But did you then become accustomed to it and were
able to trust her, because you're kind of saying I
became accustomed to the fact that this is going on,
that that's part of her job, But I still had
trust issues throughount you still had the discomfort even if
you felt, well, I can't voice it all the time
because you know, that's part of her job. But it
sounded like he was still uncomfortable by that.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, I would say that it was pretty much always
the case. As time, you know, I moved on between us,
and we spent more time together and we did all
these things together. Like I kind of just didn't forget
about it, but I just like wouldn't let it affect
me as much. But in the back of my mind.
That was always like a problem for me.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Tell us about the rest of the relationship and what
was going on while this trust issue was happening, What
was going well? Were there other issues that were not
going well?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
So besides you know the mistrust, I thought our relationship
was pretty good. We spent a lot of time together
at school, like we pretty much like lived together. We
both graduated, and then I guess that's when it started
like going downhill for good.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
So up to the point of graduation, you felt like
the trust issue was kind of in the background at
that point, and things were going well and you imagined
that you would continue dating and maybe even possibly end
up together.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, for sure, her family loved me, and my family
loved her. It was definitely pretty good. We had we
broke up a few times. We took small breaks, but
like we would always find our way back together.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You kind of tossed
that out there. We brought up a few times. So
you're saying two things. You're saying one things were going
really well, and the other thing is, oh, yeah, and
we broke up a few times, So tell us about
this few times.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
It would be like for small amounts of time, like
a week, two weeks, the longest one was. I guess
this is another important thing to tron. To start the relationship,
she had had a boyfriend in high school that she
dated for I think two years, and she was dating him,
I believe her first year of school. So this was
before I even knew her. So when I came into
(21:30):
the picture, I had known of the X And in
the beginning, we weren't together right off the bat, so
I remember we were leaving. She told me, she was like,
I don't think I could keep doing this, like I have,
you know, my ex, and so she went and visited
him in another state during this winter break. So then
(21:52):
a month after that, she pretty much like came back
to me and was like, yeah, that's like done. I
want to be with you.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
That was the start of your relationship.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, And then after that, like when we when she
finally said that to me, that's like when I started
taking in a very serious and then the weekend after
then that happened. So definitely a rough start to it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Tell us about the other breakups, the times that you
you said you broke up a few times, sure, tell
us about those.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
So it would just be like, you know, we would
be arguing a lot. She wouldn't like how I acted
if I saw her like talking to a certain guy
when in my mind, like I had reason to you know,
doubt what, like what she's actually doing?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
So what would happen? Who broke up with whom in
that situation?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
One time I broke up with her? Another time she
broke up with me?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
And did she talk to you about why this was
upsetting her? That maybe she felt controlled or she felt
like you were not giving her enough space, that she
wanted you to trust her, and you were kind of
monitor turing her and being at the bar and you know,
kind of like her chaperone as opposed to her boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
So basically, yeah, she would just like nah, I appreciate,
like me getting mad about certain things. Like her response
was always like it's my job, Like it's my job.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
What exactly was she doing that would upset you when
she would say it's my job.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
The way she would talk to some of the guys,
she would like call them close to the bar, like
lean over the bar and like talking to her obviously
like it's a loud bar. Like I understand this to
the point, but there was definitely like some people that
I was just like a little worried about because of
the buddy language. Yeah, just like it looks like flirting,
you know.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
So she would call them over sometimes, not like they
would go over and talk to her and she would
talk to them, but sometimes she might actually call them over. Yeah,
you said, we always found that way back, which is
kind of a romantic way to think about it. But
what happened? How did you get back? Who would apologize
to whom? Who would approach him?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
The time I broke up with her, I know, like
she reached out to me and just like said like, oh,
like she misses me, and you know, she wants to
work on things, so we could try again and things
would be different this time, you know, and it would
never really change.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Did the two of you ever talk about what specifically
would be different or it was just a vague things
will be different.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, it was just pretty much just like vague. At
this point, I was, you know, younger, I wasn't into
the therapy, Like I wasn't like really trying to like
look into like the issues and like find the root
and all that. That's why I think I've brought you know,
a lot of that stuff from that first relationship into
this last one. You know, like I said the letter,
I'm feel like I'm a lot more upset about this
(24:34):
one than I was that first one being over, and
that first one was much longer time together.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So how did this relationship finally end?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
After like a while together? We graduated a few months
after that. I kind of just like we weren't seeing
each other as much because we weren't super close to
each other anymore. You know, I'd see her like every
weekend if that, sometimes not even that, and it just
felt like it kind of just like ran its course.
I went to her house and we just like sat
(25:05):
down and we just talked, and then we decided to
go our separate ways. You know. After that, we didn't.
I haven't really been in contact.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You said, do you think you carried over stuff from
that first relationship to the second one? What specifically did
you think you carried over there?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I guess a bit of insecurity after that relationship, that
fresh relationship had ended, Like I started learning more and
more stuff, Like every time I had a problem in
that relationship and I would bring it up, she would
just like think it's me, Like overthinking and like bugging
out about.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Things, and so the insecurity, how did it manifest in
your next relationship?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I would always like overthink pretty much every situation. If
she went out for a while and like didn't answer
me for like an hour or two, like I would
just like text her and be like are you okay?
Like are you doing anything? And she never did anything,
and it was just like pretty unfaired her.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
So the trust issue is what carried ova really significantly
for you.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, just like being able to like fully trust her
and like she didn't do anything to me to break
that trust in the first place.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Can you tell us a little bit about what it
was like growing up for you, what your parents' relationship
was like, just a little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
My parents have been together my whole life. My mom
lived in Cuba. She moved here when she was eighteen
years old. My dad definitely drank a lot while I
was younger, so I'd hear a lot of fights between them.
I would later find out, like my dad had a
pretty serious like drug problem as well. And so when
I was a senior in high school, I got like
(26:43):
called out of school. My brother picked me up and
once my grandparents' house, and like they pretty much like
sat me down, like just like up ended my whole world.
They told me like this whole thing that had happened
with my dad and that like I'm not going to
be seeing him anymore, and so oh that was like
a pretty big deal. He decided he had to go
(27:04):
to rehab, so he like left for about a month
or so, and then he came back and ever since
then he's been completely sober. He doesn't drink anymore, doesn't
do anything. Him and my mom never split up. My
mom stood by his side during, you know, even the
bad times. So that's definitely something I saw. But this
(27:25):
is something I've talked to my other therapist about as well.
This was like a complete shock to me. The one
person like I looked up to in my life, Like
you found this out and like I had no idea.
It completely blinds side of me.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
When's the family involved in the rehab, but a lot
of the time his family is brought in, especially when
their adults. You were eighteen, I think at that point,
was you are part of that? Was that disgusted.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I went and visited him two times when he was
in there, did.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You and he talk about it. Did he talk to
you about what was going on?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, we had like a pretty serious conversations about it
after and we have a great relationship now. Him and
my mom are obviously stood together there. They're better than
I've ever been ever since. He pretty much like came
back from that. They rarely fight, nothing like it used
to be.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And his issue was with alcohol and what drugs, cocaine,
And the fact that he had those issues with alcohol
and cocaine. Did that give you any misgivings about your
own you, so any warning about I need to be
closoert about my relationship with alcohol and with drugs because
I have it with my dad and I've seen what
happened to him.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Obviously it was It's always something that's been on my mind.
But like obviously I continue to do it. Now is
when I'm like realizing that, like, you know, I'm getting older,
I need to like start being more responsible and uh,
like I'm taking it a lot more serious than I
ever had before. Back then I was in school, like
I want that fun, you know. I tried to not
(28:56):
let that control me or make his dec decisions be
a reflection on me. But after this, all this has happened,
Like now I'm realizing that, like I need to cut
it down, and I have been doing so for the
last few weekends.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Now what does it mean by cutting it down? Because
everybody has a different definition of that.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Sure, Sure, now I go out and have you know,
three beers, four beers. You know, my friends have all
all continued to you know, drink as they used to,
because none of them, you know, they're all fine. But myself,
like I just like am pacing myself, you know, mixing
waters if I have to. But I haven't been drunk
in the last month, and that's been you know, it's
(29:39):
been a while since I've gone that long.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Why do you think you stayed? Given that you were
on edge so much of the time during that relationship.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I remember feeling like we're just like always thinking to myself, like, wow,
I can't wait to graduate. So like she's done with
this part time the job and you know, you know,
so like that was kind of something I held on to,
and like she was, I'm also excited. She she would
say to me like, oh, I can't wait, like when
we're done and I get like my full time job
and we just don't have to deal with this anymore.
(30:07):
So that was definitely something we both you know, thought about.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
But then it happened. You graduated, she wasn't a bartender anymore,
and so at that point you said, that was when
you split up. So what do you think happened there where?
This was this time when this big kind of elephant
in the room that existed between the two of you
was going to go away and now the two of
you could have more normalcy and see who you were
(30:32):
to each other. But it sounds like you didn't want
to explore that with each other once you had the
freedom to do that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
I was definitely excited about it. I think we both were,
but you know, as time passed, I guess, you know,
not being together as much as we used to be,
like the space we had more, a lot more space
between us. I felt like the relationship at Runn's course,
and it's like the spark was gone, you know, after
after all, like we've been through together, Like it was
(30:59):
just like it was a long relationship and it was
definitely taxing on myself.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
This is so interesting to me. It reminds me a
little bit of people who have some kind of obstacle
in their relationship, like their long distance or you know,
or someone is having an affair and they're finally going
to leave their partner and the couple will now be
free to be together. And then they've been waiting for that,
that's the thing that they've been holding on to, and
(31:28):
then they get that, and then they don't want it.
And I wonder if part of the allure when I
asked earlier why you stayed in this for so long,
was that you couldn't really have her in the way
you wanted to, and then when you maybe could, you
could at least explore that you didn't want her anymore.
And when we talk about the most recent relationship, I
(31:49):
wonder if some of that is what's being brought over
that there's something about you where part of you really
wants to have a girlfriend and is that romantic and
wants to have this kind of relationship, but another part
of you isn't quite comfortable with it and sabotages it
(32:11):
in some way.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
So in the most recent relationship, at the start, she
was the one that was like a lot more interested
in me and wanting to pursue me, And at the
beginning I was more hesitant on it, Like I got
out of a slow relationship. I wasn't ready to jump
into a new one yet. So in the beginning, like,
(32:32):
I definitely had my wall up, in my guard up
for a longer time. And yeah, and eventually I obviously
like brought her in and then I thought it was great.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Right, So consciously you quote unquote made it official and
you took that leap. But then when you drank, the
part of you that I think was maybe afraid of
what this was made sure that it would not progress
because you kept doing something that would push her away
and you weren't intentionally doing it, you were drunk. But
(33:06):
I think that you have these two parts of yourself.
There's a part that really wants to be in a
healthy relationship that feels good, and there's another part of
you that just doesn't trust that someone's going to be
there for you in that way that feels very scary,
it's very anxiety provoking, and you don't ever want to
be in that situation again. And even though this current
(33:26):
person hasn't done anything to make you feel like she's
not trustworthy, I think that you have this feeling inside,
this question inside about whether somebody really wants you and
just you Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Think that's pretty good, And you know, it's something I've
talked about with my therapist, like how I feel like
I'm self sabotaging it in a way, Just like you said,
I agree. I think part of it is because like
the people in my life that I fully trusted, you know,
I just like haven't even been able to trust. First
with my dad and everything that happened with that situation
(34:03):
like that bombshell, and then with my first girlfriendly, I
just like it wasn't even able to build up that
trust with her.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Do you know how to build trust with someone when
you're dating them, because, for example, you said you didn't
know what it was that led to you calling her
a slut four times, But given what you're describing, truly,
you can just be in a bus somewhere. You know,
a guy could just pass by and ask her where
the restroom is, and you turn around, you see her
talking to someone, and that might do it. Because one
(34:31):
thing that's important in this kind of situation is to
be super aware of what your triggers are. Have you
come up with any other kinds of steps that you
might take if this relationship were to continue to avoid
those traps?
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yeah, so like with this lash relationship, I know, it's
just a touch on your point a little bit. Like
we were out one time and like a musual friend
of ours like was taught her, Like you said, like
they got close to her ear because like we're in
a bar and it's loud, and like I would just
like have like a flashback like back at school, and
(35:07):
I was just like I'd see myself getting angry and
like I would just like try to control myself and
then I would bring it up to her. She would
just say, like you know him, like that he's my
friend too, And there was actually nothing to be worried about.
It was just kind of just like PTSD just like
kicking in, like attributing the last relationship to her, when
(35:28):
in reality, it's obviously nothing that I had to be,
you know, even worried about it all.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
When guy was asking do you know how to build trust?
I think we need to be clear about who you're
trying to trust. In this case, you said, there's nothing
she's done that would make you distrust her. Sometimes the
reason that we can't trust someone is not that we
don't trust them, it's that we don't trust that someone
will love us that we don't trust that we are lovable,
(35:56):
that we are lovable enough to sustain someone over time
and anogamous relationship. And so it's not so much about
trusting her, but it's about having trust in the idea
that someone can love you. Does that resonate with you
at all?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah? As time goes on, like you just like questioned, like,
am I enough? I'm an overthinker. And obviously you see
and hear all these stories. You know, it's definitely like
something that it's probably super hard to find someone that's gonna,
you know, love me for that long.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Why do you think that would be hard?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
I just feel like everything that goes on like nowadays,
it's just like hard to find someone that will be
like committed to one person for a long period of time.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And I think that with this last girlfriend, there will
be a trust issue on her end as well at
this point, right because full time you said these things
to her, and so she will also have a hard
time trusting. What is the current status between the two
of you? Are you in touch? You know this you
wrote a letter about you know, can this work if
(37:08):
we came back together? But is that is that an option?
Right now?
Speaker 3 (37:11):
We're not talking day of to day. Right now, she's
told me that she wants just like space to think
about things, because she does say like at this like
I don't know how I could trust your word anymore.
Like you've told me it was not gonna happen anymore.
I don't blame her at all. Like She's completely right.
I've also tried to make it clear, like how I
really feel about her, and I told her, you know,
(37:34):
every day I'm working to get better. I'm you know,
going to therapy. I'm trying to get to the root
of all these issues so we could try to control
it and hopefully if I'm giving a chance to never
happen again.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
How do you feel about her?
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Absolutely love her. Just the way I feel about her
is completely different from that that first relationship, and it
just kills me because I know the main problem, you know,
was the drinking and what came after that. And you know,
I told her I don't have to have a drink again.
Like that's something I realized recently was that's not really
(38:08):
important to me. I'm ready to like move on from
this stage.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
See, I don't think the main problem was the drinking.
I think the drinking brought out the problem. Yeah, and
the problem was that you don't trust that someone can
love you and sustain their love in you, that they're
not going to lose interest, or that some shiny person
out there won't take them away from you. And that's
(38:33):
really the issue that whether it's this relationship or another
relationship that you're going to have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Yeah, that sounds that sounds right.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
So at this point, is she saying I don't want
to have any communication for the time being, or is
there an opening there?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
She wants her space generally on day to day, but
then for example, yesterday, I shall send me a picture
of like a meal she cooked, because you know, we
would cook together, and like, you know, she sent me
like a message like saying, oh, like I miss you,
but I just know I just like I don't think
we could be together right now. Not mixed messages, but
(39:09):
like sometimes that we see each other, like they just
casually talking and like bring bringing it back, you know,
and that's kind of what it gives me hope that
we could be together again.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Does she know that you love her too?
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yes, she says it back to me as well, because
I said.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
That in that first relationship that was never repaired. What
happened that first weekend and before it was never repaired.
And the one way that you repair those things is
that you would have had to have known at that point,
like how that happened, how she had owed us up
to do that, What she can say to you that
will reassure you that she's got that under control, that
(39:49):
whatever that was won't happen again, et cetera. And this current,
this past girl friend, this most recent X is also
in that position of Okay, you apologized for it the
first time, said it wouldn't happen, and again happened again,
so it wouldn't happen again, happened again four times. I'm
sure she has her friends and family saying how many
times does it take? Which means that she doesn't have
(40:11):
and you might not have eide yet, but she doesn't
have yet a way to think about this in which
she has an understanding of what it was that triggered
it and what steps you are taking and can take
to truly prevent that from happening again. So she would
not feel that, say for the relationship with you, until
(40:32):
she really had a good idea that, oh, you know what,
maybe that will work to give him a handle on it.
Maybe that's something that would make a difference.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
So like every time I'll have a third session, if
we like come through it comes to like your realization,
Like I'll just like send their message like letting her
know like hey like this this and this. You know,
after like the last two weekends, like I I just
signed their messures like hey, like just you know, like
I'm completely sober. She would say like, yeah, I'm like
proud of you, Like I'm happy you're doing all this.
(41:04):
I'm keeping her in the loop about like the progress
that's being made. You know, I know it takes time
and it's not going to just happen overnight, but she
definitely knows how committed I am to making any necessary changes.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And that's a great first step. But I think what
we're talking about is talking about your inner world with
her in a way that you haven't yet.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So, Mark, we have some advice for you, and it's
in two parts. The first part is this, we think that, yes,
you got traumatized by that first relationship. For sure, it
was very, very difficult. But we also think that there's
a fundamental insecurity you have in which you are worried
(41:51):
that the next guy that comes along, the next shiny
object that comes along, whoever, your waves will go, Oh,
he's better, let's go over there. There is a basic
I think in security, you feel that you can be
loved fully and loyally in a trusting way just for
who you are and for what you have to offer.
(42:11):
We also think you have a lot to offer. We
think you're a good guy, we think you're romantic in
a very lovely way, and we're not sure that you're
fully in touch with how much you have to offer.
And so what we'd like you to do is an
exercise that's called a self affirmation exercise, And what it
(42:33):
is is that you write down a list of qualities
that you know you have that are meaningful and meaningful
in relationships, like the fact that you're a twenty six
year old guy, but you're going to therapy and you're
gainfully employed, and you're loyal, and you're emotionally available, and
you can explore your feelings and you're not afraid of
(42:55):
talking about the relationship and how each of you feel
in a situation. So there's a lot you have to
offer that's not necessarily what most twenty six year old
guys bring to the table. You do bring some of
the regular stuff. You're a good looking guy, and you
know how to have fun, and you can lead, and
you can organize, and you can be social. You bring
(43:16):
all of that to the table as well. And so
we'd like you to make that list as exhaustively as
you can. But if you want to have one hundred
items on there, all the better. And then for every
day in the next week, we'd like you to choose
one of the items you think is most meaningful and
that you embody most. You said your journal, we'd like
you to write a couple of paragraphs at least about
(43:39):
that item, one a day, about why it's meaningful, how
you've embodied it or exhibited it in the past, how
it's been received, how other people have appreciated it in
the past, and how they might appreciate it in the future.
And the idea there is to really remind yourself of
what you have to offer that is strong, that is good,
(44:04):
that is attractive, so that you feel more secure and
that you feel like it's going to take a big
man to outshine me here, so that you don't feel
that everyone who leans over and whispers something to your
girlfriend in a bar or in any setting is actually
a threat. So that's the first part. What do you
think about that?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah, for sure, I think that's something I can do.
I think it'll be good.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Great. And then we have a second part to the advice,
and that's about dealing with the ex girlfriend.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Can we give her name, sure, Niki.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
So we want you to have a conversation with Niki
where you start off by saying, you must feel like
giving me another chance would make you seem like such
an idiot after the several chances that you've already given me.
Because you've been through this before in another relationship where
(45:01):
you ask for something and the person didn't regain your trust,
you know what that's like yourself, and that you wouldn't
be asking this of her if you hadn't gone through
that from the other side yourself. So you understand the
position that she's in. But the difference here in terms
of what you're asking now is that you're really going
(45:23):
through this process of understanding what is happening, and you
want her to know that you own one hundred percent
what happened, that she is not responsible for any of it,
and that not only do you own it, but you're
starting to understand the real reasons why you did that,
what's going on, what has been happening for you, and
(45:45):
that it's not just the drinking. It's not just I
got drunk and this is what happens when I get drunk.
It's having this very vulnerable conversation about the real reason,
and the real reason is you will say to Nikki,
I have a fear that I am not enough, and
I didn't realize that I had that fear. And part
of it is that I was scarred by the relationship before,
(46:07):
but part of it is that this is just something
that I need to work on. This is something that
I come with and that I don't want to bring
into another relationship, and I certainly wouldn't want to bring
into a new version of the relationship with you. So
what I'm asking for is a reboot, given that I
understand more about where this is coming from, that I
(46:30):
own it completely, that I am working tirelessly on trying
to figure this out, and that I also have some
tools so that I can work on making this not happen.
Like I know that being in a bar is very
triggering for me right now, and that maybe that would
not be a good place for us to go on
a date. What I'm proposing is, I would like to
(46:53):
do a reboot where we take it one day at
a time and we just reevaluate after every day. How
did that go? How are we doing? Are we communicating
with each other, no rushing, fully communicating, a real chance
to get to know each other, not only again but
differently from the way we did the first time. And
(47:15):
that is my proposal. Would you go on a date
with me in this new way? Now she may say yes,
in which case the instructions are, if you go on
the date with her, we would like you to notice
how you're feeling on the date. We want you to
monitor yourself. Oh did I just notice a cute guy
(47:36):
walk by? And I got anxious? And by the way,
we don't want this date to happen in a bar.
So it might be that you take a walk together,
you go to the beach, you have a picnic, you know,
whatever it is, You go to lunch together, and can
you have fun together? And can you notice yourself? Can
you notice when things are happening before you react to
that doing a lot of self talk? Oh, I noticed
(47:58):
that she looked to the right and there was a
cute guy there, and you being able to breathe through
it right, really noticing and when you get back from
the date, to journal about what you noticed about you,
not about what she did, what you noticed about you,
and how you were able to seem more connected to her.
Instead of going off into these stories that you create
(48:19):
around what might be going on in her mind, we
want you to really focus on what's going on in
your mind and then challenge some of those beliefs. And
if she says no to the date, we would like
you to let her know that you completely understand why
she is concerned about starting to do this reboot and
(48:40):
let her know that at the same time that because
you love her so much and because you're coming to
all of these realizations that you can't be in contact
with her if you're not going to be doing this
reboot with her at least for the next month, and
so you want to go off and do the work
work that you need to do and let her do
(49:02):
whatever she needs to do in terms of the healing
she needs to do, and then ask her if it's
okay if you could call her in a month just
to see where the two of you are and if
anything has changed, and you will hopefully have done a
lot of work in that time, and maybe she'll have
done some healing in that time. And if she says yes,
then you'll call her in a month and you'll see
can you do the reboot? Then maybe you don't even
(49:24):
want to do the reboot. Then maybe you've come to
a place where you this is not what you want
to do, and maybe she doesn't want to do it.
So maybe you both will want the same thing, maybe
you will want different things, or maybe you both will
say we don't want to pursue this, but it will
take you out of that limbo that is very I
think anxiety provoking about like, well, what she doing? Is
she on the apps? Is she dating other people? What
(49:45):
does that mean that she sent me this photo of
dinner she was cooking. It will clarify something in a
very direct way. What is our status right now? And
what are we doing with each other? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (49:56):
Yeah? Yeah, that sounds good.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
One quick addition, we want you to end ephasize to
her that Nikki, I'm not asking you to trust me
because you can't right now. I'm asking you to give
me a chance to gain your trust. That's really all
I'm asking. And either I'll succeed and I think I might,
or I won't. But I'm not asking you to come
(50:19):
in blindly. I'm asking you to come in as a
skeptic and give me a chance to regain your trust.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
And the philosophy behind the one date at a time
is a little bit like people with addictions. They can't
say I will never use again, but they can say
I'm going to take this one day at a time.
And so you're going to take it one date at
a time as you're working on this, where you can
manage that smaller chunk of on this one date, can
(50:45):
I really tune into myself? Can I monitor my reactions
to things? And then you do it again on another date.
And so you're not saying to her, I will never
do this again. You're saying, if I do this kind
of work, there's a much higher likelihood that I will
never do this again.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
Yeah, awesome, Okay.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Great, we look forward to hearing back from you.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
Awesome guys that I really appreciate the time. Thank you
guys for the help.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
So I think this is one of those situations where
you think it's a discreete issue like should I get
back together with this girlfriend? But there are some underlying
issue that is driving it. And here we have this
idea that the other shoe is going to drop. First
it happened with his father, the other shoe dropped, and
then it happens with the first girlfriend. And he has
(51:41):
this belief that you can't get too comfortable because the
minute you get too comfortable, something bad will happen.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
And I think that what happened with his father was
actually really important to here, because I think for Mark,
the idea that if the person that you know so well,
your father, you didn't know this about them, and you
can suddenly be taken out of school and given this bombshell,
then how can you trust people? And I think that
combined with this insecurity that he came with that doesn't
(52:10):
recognize his own strengths and what he has to offer,
I think those things together, the dad, the experience with
a girlfriend, and that insecurity have really set him up
to have these issues in relationships and he's going to
have them until he deals with them. And I'm so
glad that he's in therapy, and I'm so glad that
he's really taking it seriously. You can see this is
(52:31):
someone who wants to figure this out and who wants
to do the work.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
That's true. After the second time that this happened, he
went to therapy. His girlfriend said you need to go
to therapy, and instead of hemming and huying or saying
I'll just cut back on my drinking, he said yes,
and he went to therapy. And I think that speaks volumes.
And I hope that when he calls her, whether or
not she decides to go on a date with him,
that she can really take in what he's saying, because
(52:57):
I think it's going to take a lot of courage
for him to do that, and so I hope that
it's received. Well, you're listening to Dear Therapist for my
Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. So, Guy,
(53:24):
we heard back from Mark, and let's hear what happened
for him.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Hi, Guy, and Laurie hope all as well. So since
our talk, I worked on the journaling exercise. Honestly, I
found it to be extremely helpful. You know, these last
few weeks have been extremely hard on me. You know,
I've been very down on myself pretty much every day
(53:51):
it's just a hard time and I just blame myself
every day for ruining the relationship. You know, something that
I was so great, something that I thought would be forever,
and my actions and my words closed too much harm.
And yeah, it's been rough, but the journaling was great,
(54:15):
you know, a nice little reminder that, you know, just
something to pick myself up as opposed to putting myself down,
which is something I just like found myself doing a
lot recently. In terms of the conversation with Niki, we
had a pretty long conversation. I told her I feel
I told everything, and unfortunately she just did not want
(54:38):
to go on a date. She just said she still
needed space and that she was like upset and just
can't get over like the words I said there. I
don't blame her at all, I know it. You know
that I hurt her and it wasn't right and that's
just not something you say to someone you care about.
(54:58):
But hopefully could revisit this in a month and you know,
maybe the space makes you realize something. I just can't
give up on the hope, So we'll see what happens.
Thank you guys so much for the help. I really
appreciate it, and I did find it to be very helpful.
(55:20):
Take care, guys.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
It sounds like things are still really rough for him,
and yet he found the conversation helpful. And I think
that's because when we understand more about our role in
a situation, and when we get more clear about what
it's really about, it gives us a path forward. It
might not be a path forward with NICKI, but it
gives us a path forward.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
And I think that he needs a little bit of
time to really employ self forgiveness. Sometimes you need to
get a little bit more distant from things before you
can look back and go, yes, I made mistakes which
he can see and accepts, and that he needs to
be able to get to that place of self forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Well right. I think the self forgiveness is so important
because you can't make progress when you are self flagellating.
And I don't think he can really do the work
that he needs to do when he's in this place
of blaming himself. You know, there's this saying hope is
not a good strategy, so he needs to do more
than hope. He keeps talking about hope, but I think
(56:27):
what he needs to do is he needs to do
the work. And I think he's finally gotten the wake
up call and now he just needs to act on it.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
So Mark, if you're listening, this is the time to
practice self forgiveness and to really do that work.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Next week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 4 (56:49):
I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in
a sense because then people ask you like about your history,
and it's embarrassing one to be free and single. You know,
when you mentioned that to people, they're always like shocked,
and I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with
us by go smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at
iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric. We
can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a young man seeks our counsel on whether to try
to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I
know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and
you know I told I don't have to have a
drink again.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, dignosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:11):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So, Hi Guy, Hey Lourie, what do we have today?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Today? We have a letter about a breakup and some regret,
and it goes like this, Dear therapists, My girlfriend and
I recently split up after a one year relationship. This
is my second long term relationship. The other lasted about
three years. Yet I find myself way more upset about
the breakup this time around. The worst part of it
(01:50):
all is that we are both still in love with
each other, but because of a few of my actions,
we have split up. Now, we have been broken up
for close to three weeks, and I am wondering whether
or not you think I should just shut the door
on a comeback. I understand that what I did was wrong,
like saying rude things to her when I would be drunk,
and that caused her sadness. But I also know that
she still loves me and is also extremely broken up
(02:13):
about this. She says she needs time to heal, but
I also don't want her moving on and finding someone else.
She tells me that I'm her first real love. So
I just have this feeling of hope for a reconciliation
that I'm holding on to. A lot of issues from
my first relationship have carried over to this one, and
it's been unfair to her, and I understand that. But
(02:33):
a lot of the issues are things that I just
came to terms with and I'm starting to understand now.
Thank you all for your help.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Mark Well, this issue of couples who break up and
want to consider trying again is really common and we
see that a lot in our therapy offices. And the
principle that's the most important is if you're going to
do it again, a both people have to want to
but B you have to figure out what wasn't working
and how are you going to do it differently? Just
(03:02):
one thing, to do things again, but not really understanding
what needs to be different and what to change almost
inevitably leads to the same problems happening and the breakup
just happening again.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Well, that's right, and he said he's just coming to
terms with those things now to one thing to have
the insight, it's another thing to be able to act
on it. So we always like to say that insight
is the booby prize of therapy. That you can have
all the insight in the world, but if you don't
make changes out in the world, the insight is useless.
So is he ready to use the insight that he
has and put it into action in the relationship? And
(03:34):
what is she willing to do? How much time is
she willing to invest in this as he tries to
come to terms with some things from the past.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Right, And are they able to work together to navigate
these waters, because they're going to have to communicate and
be very clear about how to avoid the icebergs that
already failed them once. So let's go talk to him
and see what this is about.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Let's do that.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
You're listening to deotherapists from Iheartradial. We'll be back after
a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench
and this is THEO Therapist. So Monk, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Thank you, Thank you guys for having me and taking time.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Mark Monk tell us a little bit about the relationship,
how you met, how old you were, how it went,
and were things are today?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Sure? So we met summer of twenty nineteen. I was
twenty four, she was twenty two, so two your difference.
She knew who I was because we went to the
same school. One of our mutual friends like introduced us
right off the bat, like we had a connection. It's
like we hung out towards the end of that summer,
and then she was going back to school. I was
(04:52):
coming off like a longer, like three year relationship. I
was probably six months removed from this relationship at this point.
I necessarily wasn't ready for another leadership. So she goes
back to school. We still communicate. She starts like leaving
school during weekends like to come see me. Clearly, it's like,
(05:14):
what's progressing more than either of us have pretty much expected.
So then we fast forward to the next summer, and
we both had rental houses for the summer near each other.
We're spending every weekend together. I would just stay down
there and make a long commute in the morning. I
would drive like an hour to work an hour back,
you know, So they almost like living together at this point.
(05:38):
We were together all summer, not official of course that
came at the end of the summer, when like we
were like, yeah, all right, we could uh take this
to the next step.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
You know when you say not official, you had been
dating for a year at that point and it was
still not official.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
No, No, we were, I would say, exclusive to each other,
you know, talking every day, so you know everything about
the title. I feel like the title at this point
was just like something in my head, like I had
gone through a really long relationship that didn't pan out,
and it was like a super stressful situation for me.
So I just felt like with the title came all
(06:13):
these added expectations and all this external pressure that I
wasn't ready for.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Sounds like you were dating for about a year in
this way where it wasn't really defined what actually made
it official between the two of you, where it was
directly communicated between the two of you that it was official.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
What changed that was just like simply me like asking
her to be my girlfriend. Our day to day nothing
really changed, you know, we talked all day every day,
We hung out every weekend. After the summer ended, our
leases ended for that for the summer, and then she
was moving out because she had graduated school at this point.
So basically throughout that whole process, I was, you know,
(06:57):
there helping her every step of the way, like I
was building all furniture for her house. At this point,
our relationship was gone, you know, I'd say, very well.
So fast forward a few weeks after that. This is
where like our issues like arise. One night when we
were out drinking, I got a little too drunk and
then I said some like mean things to her, like
(07:18):
I had gotten really drunk and for some reason I
had called her slot. These weren't like thoughts I have
of her, like I think the most of her. I
don't know where that came from at this time, and
obviously she was super upsett me, like how could you
say that to me? Like you're dating me? Like why
would you say that? And like I didn't have any
you know, explanation. I had no idea where that came from.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Had that ever happened before where you drink too much
and said things that you regretted later and that were
kind of inexplicable to you.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Back in school? I mean, it would happen, but like
I never had said that to my ex girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
When it happened back in school. What did you say,
and to whom it.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Would just be like my friends, like we would just
like get mad and get an argument, just like it
was never never anything to this point, you know, never
anything like a like a personal attack like that. It
was never something like I had to wake up the
next day and like I was like, wow, I can't believe,
like I said that.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Did it happen often or how often? Would you say
it would happen?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Not often? Not often at all?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
And with her, was this the first time that this
had happened.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Yeah, this was the first time this happened. And then
I guess like two or three weeks after that, it
happened again, and it got to the point it happened
like four times, five times, and obviously like she was
fed up this whole time, like she was trying to
get me to go to therapy because we realized, like
my first relationship there was like a lot of it
(08:43):
just like wasn't a healthy relationship at all, And that
was my first ever relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
After it happened the first time, how did the two
of you talk about it and move past that?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
She was obviously very upset. I apologized to her, I
told you, like it won't happen again. Obviously that didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So after it happened the second time, what happened between
the two of you. I want to hear what happened
each time and how the two of you dealt with it.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
The second time, she got super upset. I apologize, I said, like,
I know, I said it would have happened. I don't
know why it happened. And then after the second time
is when I started going to therapy. Actually because I realized,
I told her, I was like, listen, I'm gonna go
with therapy. I'm going to try to like get to
the rut of this problem. Like, clearly there's something you
know going on.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Did you consider motivating the drinking since it was directly
tied to of a drinking.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yes, and it didn't work. But now ever, since you know,
we broke up for like this last you know, it's
close to two months now, the drinking has been very limited.
I've you know, keeping control of myself. I'm you know,
doing things that my therapists told me to do and
I've let her know to and you know, she does
say she's proud of me, like or the progress I've
(09:54):
made was.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The drinking something that had been problematic for you.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Before this, I'd say I would definitely always have, you know,
been a drinker. Just the environment I'm in, people I
go out whatever, like you know, we're very like social group,
so I definitely like I'm exposed to it a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Did you feel like when you were drinking, that you
were drinking to a point that you would not be
in control of yourself, that that was a regular thing.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yeah, honestly, as bad as it sound like, it kind
of was to the point where it was like a
regular thing. It's not like I would wake up and
like want a drink, you know, it would just be
a Friday Saturday thing. We go out all together. The
thing that changed was in the summer, we me and
her went out together all the time, and like I
did drink then too, and she drinks as well. But
(10:46):
it was never an issue. So that's like why I've
been so confused about situation, because one day it happened,
and it's like it opened the gates and then led
it happening multiple times.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Was she able to tell you what because you don't
have the recollection of what happened? Was she able to
describe to you what happened that led you to Kotors.
In each of those cases, she.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Would say like out of nowhere, like and I know,
one day it happened and my best friends were there,
and so that was the first time it happened where
other people like heard it. It was extremely embarrassing, Like
it was just like really sad, you know, because then
I had my best friend for like fifteen years. At
(11:29):
this point, it's just been like I've never like seen
you like say or do anything like that, Like that's
so completely out of character for you.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
How long have you been seeing a therapist at.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
This point, about two months?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And what has that been like for you in terms
of understanding more about what might be going on.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Honestly, I love it. It's just like good to talk to someone,
you know. Therapy has never been something like I would
like thought I would do myself, you know. I always
thought I had everything pretty under control, but obviously that's
not the case. It's definitely been good. It's a good outlet.
I've been like journaling a lot, listening to the podcast
that I've listened to all the episodes, you know, it's
(12:08):
definitely been super helpful. I've realized a lot of the
issues have stemmed from that first relationship I was in
just because it was my first relationship, and like I was,
I guess that's how I viewed how a relationship like
that's like normal things, you know, when in reality it
wasn't necessarily normal.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Can you tell us a little bit about that relationship.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Sure, So it was my second year of college. I
met this girl. I met her in class, and we
were together on and off until a year after graduation
pretty much, so like three years. It was a pretty
crazy relationship. Like, for example, we started dating and literally
the weekend we started dating, one of my friends was
(12:52):
out with her and sent me pictures of her with
like another guy already. So like the first weekend, right
off the bat, my first real real relationship, Like that's
what I was like greeted by, you know, and that
was like lingered over our relationship the whole time, and
like that gave me like some serious trust issues.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well how did you handle that? When that happened?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I got the pictures, and like I it was late
at night, I couldn't sleep all night. The next day
she was actually working. I drove to her job to
talk to her about it. She blamed on her being
too drunk and like she didn't remember it, and I
was able to forgive her. But those trust issues definitely
lasted the whole relationship. I was always you know, questioning things,
(13:36):
and like I never like fully trusted her.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Did that girlfriend continue to hook up with other guys
or was it a one time incident that left you
feeling distrustful throughout the relationship?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, so it was definitely a one time incident from
what I know. Of course, we just like had a
lot of issues in that relationship because she was a bartender,
I like the popular bar school. I feel like that
was like the cloud on that relationship for pretty much
the whole time. Why was that a cloud, I guess
just like insecurities, just like trust issues between us mutual.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Did she have trust issues with you as well?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
No, not that I know of I don't think so.
I never like cheated on or did anything. You know.
I always like gave her full access to anything she wanted.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
When you say you gave her full access to anything
she wanted? Was she questioning you?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
No blake? If she ever felt uneasy about something or
like someone I would if she wanted, like see certain
text messages, I would show her like I never really
had anything to hide from her.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
In that it sounds like she did have some trust
issues if she was asking to see some text messages.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
She never did specifically, but like as a way for
me to prove, you know, my innocence, not that she
was like assuming I was doing things. Well.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I guess what I'm saying is in a relationship where
there's trust, people are not needing to prove their innocence. Yeah,
And so it sounds like something happened between the two
of you where she communicated in some way that she
wasn't sure she could trust you, and then you said no, no, no,
you can let me show you these text messages.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
I think it's more so my trust issues with her.
I would ask to see something, and I guess as
a way to just like even the playing field, like
she would like catch me slippy anyway?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Did she have transparency as well? Man? But she's saying, sure,
here's my phone, whatever you want. Yeah, she did. So
what was other than that first weekend? What else was
happening there that maintained the distress?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Well? For example, one time I saw a text from
one of her coworkers and I asked her, like if
I could see more about it, and then like when
I looked into the phone, it was like the coworker
asking her to go on a date, and like her
saying like yeah, And then when I questioned her about it,
she was just like, oh no, like we never did that,
like we're just like friends. She never did go on
(16:02):
this date, but like, no one does this, like no
one texts your friends.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
She said yes to the date, So that's the problem. Yeah, right,
so there was definitely stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
That was going on, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And how did you deal with that with her?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
I was like, I'm gonna lookout for this coworker, Like
I started hanging out with her friend grew more and
like I eventually was friends with him, but like it
was still just something uneasy to see that.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But you were friends with a guy who asked your
girlfriend out while he knew you were with her.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, like not like best friends, but like if I
went to an event with her friends, like he would
be there.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
It's interesting that you said there was that one incident
which happened early on, and then you said there was
nothing else that would make you distrust her throughout the relationship,
and yet here's an example. Somebody asked her out, which
that's fine because that's not her doing. But then she
said yes, And whether she went or not is kind
of irrelevant because she said yes to a date. So
(17:01):
it sounds like there was more than one incident, and
can you tell us about others?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Sure? So the kid that she cheated on me with
that first weekend, he came to school with us, so,
like we would see him around like a fair amount.
So he was always like obviously like on the back
of the mind. She like made it clear she was interested,
blocked him on everything. But there would be times where
she'd be bartending and I would see him like go
(17:28):
up here and talk to her, and obviously I would react,
come on, like what are you doing and she's like, oh,
I'm just doing my job, when in reality like it
to me, obviously, it seems like it was more than that.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
When you saw the text that she had said yes
to the date, what was the conversation like between the
two of you. So she said, well, I didn't go
on it, so it's okay, but obviously it wasn't okay
with you. How did you talk to her about that?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, So I pretty much just like made it clear,
like I was, like, no one says yes to go
on a day, Like it's not like a like a
friendly joke or something like that. And she like understood why.
I was like disappointed and mad at her about it.
And I mean after that, nothing really came of it.
I just like let it go.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And you know, did she apologize to you and did
she understand why this was creating distrust?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yes, she did apologize. I was mad at her for
like a week or so, if I remember correctly, and
she definitely apologized and like felt really bad about it.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
The thing is, you're dating a popular about tender who's
at the center of the social scene. And so there
are these two guys, the guy she hooked up with
and the other guy from work that you know there
was a hook up in the flirtation with and you
even saw in social events. The other guy go up
to her and she cames, well, understoying my job. He's
coming up to the bar. I got to talk to him.
But she's about tender. You've got to see a lot
(18:43):
of guys talking to her. That had to be a
question in your mind. Every time she's talking to someone,
what about this one what about this one? How did
you manage that over the relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, so obviously that's where a lot of our problems,
you know, came from. In that relationship. It was never easy,
but eventually, like it got to me that it's her job,
and I had to trust her as much as I could.
A lot of the nights I was there at the bar,
it was never anything like out of the ordinary, Like
(19:15):
at that point, I had just like become accustomed to it.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
But did you then become accustomed to it and were
able to trust her, because you're kind of saying I
became accustomed to the fact that this is going on,
that that's part of her job, But I still had
trust issues throughount you still had the discomfort even if
you felt, well, I can't voice it all the time
because you know, that's part of her job. But it
sounded like he was still uncomfortable by that.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah, I would say that it was pretty much always
the case. As time, you know, I moved on between us,
and we spent more time together and we did all
these things together. Like I kind of just didn't forget
about it, but I just like wouldn't let it affect
me as much. But in the back of my mind.
That was always like a problem for me.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Tell us about the rest of the relationship and what
was going on while this trust issue was happening, What
was going well? Were there other issues that were not
going well?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
So besides you know the mistrust, I thought our relationship
was pretty good. We spent a lot of time together
at school, like we pretty much like lived together. We
both graduated, and then I guess that's when it started
like going downhill for good.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
So up to the point of graduation, you felt like
the trust issue was kind of in the background at
that point, and things were going well and you imagined
that you would continue dating and maybe even possibly end
up together.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, for sure, her family loved me, and my family
loved her. It was definitely pretty good. We had we
broke up a few times. We took small breaks, but
like we would always find our way back together.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You kind of tossed
that out there. We brought up a few times. So
you're saying two things. You're saying one things were going
really well, and the other thing is, oh, yeah, and
we broke up a few times, So tell us about
this few times.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
It would be like for small amounts of time, like
a week, two weeks, the longest one was. I guess
this is another important thing to tron. To start the relationship,
she had had a boyfriend in high school that she
dated for I think two years, and she was dating him,
I believe her first year of school. So this was
before I even knew her. So when I came into
(21:30):
the picture, I had known of the X And in
the beginning, we weren't together right off the bat, so
I remember we were leaving. She told me, she was like,
I don't think I could keep doing this, like I have,
you know, my ex, and so she went and visited
him in another state during this winter break. So then
(21:52):
a month after that, she pretty much like came back
to me and was like, yeah, that's like done. I
want to be with you.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
That was the start of your relationship.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, And then after that, like when we when she
finally said that to me, that's like when I started
taking in a very serious and then the weekend after
then that happened. So definitely a rough start to it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Tell us about the other breakups, the times that you
you said you broke up a few times, sure, tell
us about those.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
So it would just be like, you know, we would
be arguing a lot. She wouldn't like how I acted
if I saw her like talking to a certain guy
when in my mind, like I had reason to you know,
doubt what, like what she's actually doing?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
So what would happen? Who broke up with whom in
that situation?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
One time I broke up with her? Another time she
broke up with me?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
And did she talk to you about why this was
upsetting her? That maybe she felt controlled or she felt
like you were not giving her enough space, that she
wanted you to trust her, and you were kind of
monitor turing her and being at the bar and you know,
kind of like her chaperone as opposed to her boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
So basically, yeah, she would just like nah, I appreciate,
like me getting mad about certain things. Like her response
was always like it's my job, Like it's my job.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
What exactly was she doing that would upset you when
she would say it's my job.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
The way she would talk to some of the guys,
she would like call them close to the bar, like
lean over the bar and like talking to her obviously
like it's a loud bar. Like I understand this to
the point, but there was definitely like some people that
I was just like a little worried about because of
the buddy language. Yeah, just like it looks like flirting,
you know.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
So she would call them over sometimes, not like they
would go over and talk to her and she would
talk to them, but sometimes she might actually call them over. Yeah,
you said, we always found that way back, which is
kind of a romantic way to think about it. But
what happened? How did you get back? Who would apologize
to whom? Who would approach him?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
The time I broke up with her, I know, like
she reached out to me and just like said like, oh,
like she misses me, and you know, she wants to
work on things, so we could try again and things
would be different this time, you know, and it would
never really change.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Did the two of you ever talk about what specifically
would be different or it was just a vague things
will be different.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, it was just pretty much just like vague. At
this point, I was, you know, younger, I wasn't into
the therapy, Like I wasn't like really trying to like
look into like the issues and like find the root
and all that. That's why I think I've brought you know,
a lot of that stuff from that first relationship into
this last one. You know, like I said the letter,
I'm feel like I'm a lot more upset about this
(24:34):
one than I was that first one being over, and
that first one was much longer time together.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So how did this relationship finally end?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
After like a while together? We graduated a few months
after that. I kind of just like we weren't seeing
each other as much because we weren't super close to
each other anymore. You know, I'd see her like every
weekend if that, sometimes not even that, and it just
felt like it kind of just like ran its course.
I went to her house and we just like sat
(25:05):
down and we just talked, and then we decided to
go our separate ways. You know. After that, we didn't.
I haven't really been in contact.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You said, do you think you carried over stuff from
that first relationship to the second one? What specifically did
you think you carried over there?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I guess a bit of insecurity after that relationship, that
fresh relationship had ended, Like I started learning more and
more stuff, Like every time I had a problem in
that relationship and I would bring it up, she would
just like think it's me, Like overthinking and like bugging
out about.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Things, and so the insecurity, how did it manifest in
your next relationship?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I would always like overthink pretty much every situation. If
she went out for a while and like didn't answer
me for like an hour or two, like I would
just like text her and be like are you okay?
Like are you doing anything? And she never did anything,
and it was just like pretty unfaired her.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
So the trust issue is what carried ova really significantly
for you.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, just like being able to like fully trust her
and like she didn't do anything to me to break
that trust in the first place.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Can you tell us a little bit about what it
was like growing up for you, what your parents' relationship
was like, just a little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
My parents have been together my whole life. My mom
lived in Cuba. She moved here when she was eighteen
years old. My dad definitely drank a lot while I
was younger, so I'd hear a lot of fights between them.
I would later find out, like my dad had a
pretty serious like drug problem as well. And so when
I was a senior in high school, I got like
(26:43):
called out of school. My brother picked me up and
once my grandparents' house, and like they pretty much like
sat me down, like just like up ended my whole world.
They told me like this whole thing that had happened
with my dad and that like I'm not going to
be seeing him anymore, and so oh that was like
a pretty big deal. He decided he had to go
(27:04):
to rehab, so he like left for about a month
or so, and then he came back and ever since
then he's been completely sober. He doesn't drink anymore, doesn't
do anything. Him and my mom never split up. My
mom stood by his side during, you know, even the
bad times. So that's definitely something I saw. But this
(27:25):
is something I've talked to my other therapist about as well.
This was like a complete shock to me. The one
person like I looked up to in my life, Like
you found this out and like I had no idea.
It completely blinds side of me.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
When's the family involved in the rehab, but a lot
of the time his family is brought in, especially when
their adults. You were eighteen, I think at that point,
was you are part of that? Was that disgusted.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I went and visited him two times when he was
in there, did.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You and he talk about it. Did he talk to
you about what was going on?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, we had like a pretty serious conversations about it
after and we have a great relationship now. Him and
my mom are obviously stood together there. They're better than
I've ever been ever since. He pretty much like came
back from that. They rarely fight, nothing like it used
to be.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And his issue was with alcohol and what drugs, cocaine,
And the fact that he had those issues with alcohol
and cocaine. Did that give you any misgivings about your
own you, so any warning about I need to be
closoert about my relationship with alcohol and with drugs because
I have it with my dad and I've seen what
happened to him.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Obviously it was It's always something that's been on my mind.
But like obviously I continue to do it. Now is
when I'm like realizing that, like, you know, I'm getting older,
I need to like start being more responsible and uh,
like I'm taking it a lot more serious than I
ever had before. Back then I was in school, like
I want that fun, you know. I tried to not
(28:56):
let that control me or make his dec decisions be
a reflection on me. But after this, all this has happened,
Like now I'm realizing that, like I need to cut
it down, and I have been doing so for the
last few weekends.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Now what does it mean by cutting it down? Because
everybody has a different definition of that.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Sure, Sure, now I go out and have you know,
three beers, four beers. You know, my friends have all
all continued to you know, drink as they used to,
because none of them, you know, they're all fine. But myself,
like I just like am pacing myself, you know, mixing
waters if I have to. But I haven't been drunk
in the last month, and that's been you know, it's
(29:39):
been a while since I've gone that long.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Why do you think you stayed? Given that you were
on edge so much of the time during that relationship.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I remember feeling like we're just like always thinking to myself, like, wow,
I can't wait to graduate. So like she's done with
this part time the job and you know, you know,
so like that was kind of something I held on to,
and like she was, I'm also excited. She she would
say to me like, oh, I can't wait, like when
we're done and I get like my full time job
and we just don't have to deal with this anymore.
(30:07):
So that was definitely something we both you know, thought about.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
But then it happened. You graduated, she wasn't a bartender anymore,
and so at that point you said, that was when
you split up. So what do you think happened there where?
This was this time when this big kind of elephant
in the room that existed between the two of you
was going to go away and now the two of
you could have more normalcy and see who you were
(30:32):
to each other. But it sounds like you didn't want
to explore that with each other once you had the
freedom to do that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
I was definitely excited about it. I think we both were,
but you know, as time passed, I guess, you know,
not being together as much as we used to be,
like the space we had more, a lot more space
between us. I felt like the relationship at Runn's course,
and it's like the spark was gone, you know, after
after all, like we've been through together, Like it was
(30:59):
just like it was a long relationship and it was
definitely taxing on myself.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
This is so interesting to me. It reminds me a
little bit of people who have some kind of obstacle
in their relationship, like their long distance or you know,
or someone is having an affair and they're finally going
to leave their partner and the couple will now be
free to be together. And then they've been waiting for that,
that's the thing that they've been holding on to, and
(31:28):
then they get that, and then they don't want it.
And I wonder if part of the allure when I
asked earlier why you stayed in this for so long,
was that you couldn't really have her in the way
you wanted to, and then when you maybe could, you
could at least explore that you didn't want her anymore.
And when we talk about the most recent relationship, I
(31:49):
wonder if some of that is what's being brought over
that there's something about you where part of you really
wants to have a girlfriend and is that romantic and
wants to have this kind of relationship, but another part
of you isn't quite comfortable with it and sabotages it
(32:11):
in some way.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
So in the most recent relationship, at the start, she
was the one that was like a lot more interested
in me and wanting to pursue me, And at the
beginning I was more hesitant on it, Like I got
out of a slow relationship. I wasn't ready to jump
into a new one yet. So in the beginning, like,
(32:32):
I definitely had my wall up, in my guard up
for a longer time. And yeah, and eventually I obviously
like brought her in and then I thought it was great.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Right, So consciously you quote unquote made it official and
you took that leap. But then when you drank, the
part of you that I think was maybe afraid of
what this was made sure that it would not progress
because you kept doing something that would push her away
and you weren't intentionally doing it, you were drunk. But
(33:06):
I think that you have these two parts of yourself.
There's a part that really wants to be in a
healthy relationship that feels good, and there's another part of
you that just doesn't trust that someone's going to be
there for you in that way that feels very scary,
it's very anxiety provoking, and you don't ever want to
be in that situation again. And even though this current
(33:26):
person hasn't done anything to make you feel like she's
not trustworthy, I think that you have this feeling inside,
this question inside about whether somebody really wants you and
just you Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Think that's pretty good, And you know, it's something I've
talked about with my therapist, like how I feel like
I'm self sabotaging it in a way, Just like you said,
I agree. I think part of it is because like
the people in my life that I fully trusted, you know,
I just like haven't even been able to trust. First
with my dad and everything that happened with that situation
(34:03):
like that bombshell, and then with my first girlfriendly, I
just like it wasn't even able to build up that
trust with her.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Do you know how to build trust with someone when
you're dating them, because, for example, you said you didn't
know what it was that led to you calling her
a slut four times, But given what you're describing, truly,
you can just be in a bus somewhere. You know,
a guy could just pass by and ask her where
the restroom is, and you turn around, you see her
talking to someone, and that might do it. Because one
(34:31):
thing that's important in this kind of situation is to
be super aware of what your triggers are. Have you
come up with any other kinds of steps that you
might take if this relationship were to continue to avoid
those traps?
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yeah, so like with this lash relationship, I know, it's
just a touch on your point a little bit. Like
we were out one time and like a musual friend
of ours like was taught her, Like you said, like
they got close to her ear because like we're in
a bar and it's loud, and like I would just
like have like a flashback like back at school, and
(35:07):
I was just like I'd see myself getting angry and
like I would just like try to control myself and
then I would bring it up to her. She would
just say, like you know him, like that he's my
friend too, And there was actually nothing to be worried about.
It was just kind of just like PTSD just like
kicking in, like attributing the last relationship to her, when
(35:28):
in reality, it's obviously nothing that I had to be,
you know, even worried about it all.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
When guy was asking do you know how to build trust?
I think we need to be clear about who you're
trying to trust. In this case, you said, there's nothing
she's done that would make you distrust her. Sometimes the
reason that we can't trust someone is not that we
don't trust them, it's that we don't trust that someone
will love us that we don't trust that we are lovable,
(35:56):
that we are lovable enough to sustain someone over time
and anogamous relationship. And so it's not so much about
trusting her, but it's about having trust in the idea
that someone can love you. Does that resonate with you
at all?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah? As time goes on, like you just like questioned, like,
am I enough? I'm an overthinker. And obviously you see
and hear all these stories. You know, it's definitely like
something that it's probably super hard to find someone that's gonna,
you know, love me for that long.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Why do you think that would be hard?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
I just feel like everything that goes on like nowadays,
it's just like hard to find someone that will be
like committed to one person for a long period of time.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And I think that with this last girlfriend, there will
be a trust issue on her end as well at
this point, right because full time you said these things
to her, and so she will also have a hard
time trusting. What is the current status between the two
of you? Are you in touch? You know this you
wrote a letter about you know, can this work if
(37:08):
we came back together? But is that is that an option?
Right now?
Speaker 3 (37:11):
We're not talking day of to day. Right now, she's
told me that she wants just like space to think
about things, because she does say like at this like
I don't know how I could trust your word anymore.
Like you've told me it was not gonna happen anymore.
I don't blame her at all. Like She's completely right.
I've also tried to make it clear, like how I
really feel about her, and I told her, you know,
(37:34):
every day I'm working to get better. I'm you know,
going to therapy. I'm trying to get to the root
of all these issues so we could try to control
it and hopefully if I'm giving a chance to never
happen again.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
How do you feel about her?
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Absolutely love her. Just the way I feel about her
is completely different from that that first relationship, and it
just kills me because I know the main problem, you know,
was the drinking and what came after that. And you know,
I told her I don't have to have a drink again.
Like that's something I realized recently was that's not really
(38:08):
important to me. I'm ready to like move on from
this stage.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
See, I don't think the main problem was the drinking.
I think the drinking brought out the problem. Yeah, and
the problem was that you don't trust that someone can
love you and sustain their love in you, that they're
not going to lose interest, or that some shiny person
out there won't take them away from you. And that's
(38:33):
really the issue that whether it's this relationship or another
relationship that you're going to have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Yeah, that sounds that sounds right.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
So at this point, is she saying I don't want
to have any communication for the time being, or is
there an opening there?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
She wants her space generally on day to day, but
then for example, yesterday, I shall send me a picture
of like a meal she cooked, because you know, we
would cook together, and like, you know, she sent me
like a message like saying, oh, like I miss you,
but I just know I just like I don't think
we could be together right now. Not mixed messages, but
(39:09):
like sometimes that we see each other, like they just
casually talking and like bring bringing it back, you know,
and that's kind of what it gives me hope that
we could be together again.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Does she know that you love her too?
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yes, she says it back to me as well, because
I said.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
That in that first relationship that was never repaired. What
happened that first weekend and before it was never repaired.
And the one way that you repair those things is
that you would have had to have known at that point,
like how that happened, how she had owed us up
to do that, What she can say to you that
will reassure you that she's got that under control, that
(39:49):
whatever that was won't happen again, et cetera. And this current,
this past girl friend, this most recent X is also
in that position of Okay, you apologized for it the
first time, said it wouldn't happen, and again happened again,
so it wouldn't happen again, happened again four times. I'm
sure she has her friends and family saying how many
times does it take? Which means that she doesn't have
(40:11):
and you might not have eide yet, but she doesn't
have yet a way to think about this in which
she has an understanding of what it was that triggered
it and what steps you are taking and can take
to truly prevent that from happening again. So she would
not feel that, say for the relationship with you, until
(40:32):
she really had a good idea that, oh, you know what,
maybe that will work to give him a handle on it.
Maybe that's something that would make a difference.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
So like every time I'll have a third session, if
we like come through it comes to like your realization,
Like I'll just like send their message like letting her
know like hey like this this and this. You know,
after like the last two weekends, like I I just
signed their messures like hey, like just you know, like
I'm completely sober. She would say like, yeah, I'm like
proud of you, Like I'm happy you're doing all this.
(41:04):
I'm keeping her in the loop about like the progress
that's being made. You know, I know it takes time
and it's not going to just happen overnight, but she
definitely knows how committed I am to making any necessary changes.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And that's a great first step. But I think what
we're talking about is talking about your inner world with
her in a way that you haven't yet.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So, Mark, we have some advice for you, and it's
in two parts. The first part is this, we think that, yes,
you got traumatized by that first relationship. For sure, it
was very, very difficult. But we also think that there's
a fundamental insecurity you have in which you are worried
(41:51):
that the next guy that comes along, the next shiny
object that comes along, whoever, your waves will go, Oh,
he's better, let's go over there. There is a basic
I think in security, you feel that you can be
loved fully and loyally in a trusting way just for
who you are and for what you have to offer.
(42:11):
We also think you have a lot to offer. We
think you're a good guy, we think you're romantic in
a very lovely way, and we're not sure that you're
fully in touch with how much you have to offer.
And so what we'd like you to do is an
exercise that's called a self affirmation exercise, And what it
(42:33):
is is that you write down a list of qualities
that you know you have that are meaningful and meaningful
in relationships, like the fact that you're a twenty six
year old guy, but you're going to therapy and you're
gainfully employed, and you're loyal, and you're emotionally available, and
you can explore your feelings and you're not afraid of
(42:55):
talking about the relationship and how each of you feel
in a situation. So there's a lot you have to
offer that's not necessarily what most twenty six year old
guys bring to the table. You do bring some of
the regular stuff. You're a good looking guy, and you
know how to have fun, and you can lead, and
you can organize, and you can be social. You bring
(43:16):
all of that to the table as well. And so
we'd like you to make that list as exhaustively as
you can. But if you want to have one hundred
items on there, all the better. And then for every
day in the next week, we'd like you to choose
one of the items you think is most meaningful and
that you embody most. You said your journal, we'd like
you to write a couple of paragraphs at least about
(43:39):
that item, one a day, about why it's meaningful, how
you've embodied it or exhibited it in the past, how
it's been received, how other people have appreciated it in
the past, and how they might appreciate it in the future.
And the idea there is to really remind yourself of
what you have to offer that is strong, that is good,
(44:04):
that is attractive, so that you feel more secure and
that you feel like it's going to take a big
man to outshine me here, so that you don't feel
that everyone who leans over and whispers something to your
girlfriend in a bar or in any setting is actually
a threat. So that's the first part. What do you
think about that?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah, for sure, I think that's something I can do.
I think it'll be good.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Great. And then we have a second part to the advice,
and that's about dealing with the ex girlfriend.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Can we give her name, sure, Niki.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
So we want you to have a conversation with Niki
where you start off by saying, you must feel like
giving me another chance would make you seem like such
an idiot after the several chances that you've already given me.
Because you've been through this before in another relationship where
(45:01):
you ask for something and the person didn't regain your trust,
you know what that's like yourself, and that you wouldn't
be asking this of her if you hadn't gone through
that from the other side yourself. So you understand the
position that she's in. But the difference here in terms
of what you're asking now is that you're really going
(45:23):
through this process of understanding what is happening, and you
want her to know that you own one hundred percent
what happened, that she is not responsible for any of it,
and that not only do you own it, but you're
starting to understand the real reasons why you did that,
what's going on, what has been happening for you, and
(45:45):
that it's not just the drinking. It's not just I
got drunk and this is what happens when I get drunk.
It's having this very vulnerable conversation about the real reason,
and the real reason is you will say to Nikki,
I have a fear that I am not enough, and
I didn't realize that I had that fear. And part
of it is that I was scarred by the relationship before,
(46:07):
but part of it is that this is just something
that I need to work on. This is something that
I come with and that I don't want to bring
into another relationship, and I certainly wouldn't want to bring
into a new version of the relationship with you. So
what I'm asking for is a reboot, given that I
understand more about where this is coming from, that I
(46:30):
own it completely, that I am working tirelessly on trying
to figure this out, and that I also have some
tools so that I can work on making this not happen.
Like I know that being in a bar is very
triggering for me right now, and that maybe that would
not be a good place for us to go on
a date. What I'm proposing is, I would like to
(46:53):
do a reboot where we take it one day at
a time and we just reevaluate after every day. How
did that go? How are we doing? Are we communicating
with each other, no rushing, fully communicating, a real chance
to get to know each other, not only again but
differently from the way we did the first time. And
(47:15):
that is my proposal. Would you go on a date
with me in this new way? Now she may say yes,
in which case the instructions are, if you go on
the date with her, we would like you to notice
how you're feeling on the date. We want you to
monitor yourself. Oh did I just notice a cute guy
(47:36):
walk by? And I got anxious? And by the way,
we don't want this date to happen in a bar.
So it might be that you take a walk together,
you go to the beach, you have a picnic, you know,
whatever it is, You go to lunch together, and can
you have fun together? And can you notice yourself? Can
you notice when things are happening before you react to
that doing a lot of self talk? Oh, I noticed
(47:58):
that she looked to the right and there was a
cute guy there, and you being able to breathe through
it right, really noticing and when you get back from
the date, to journal about what you noticed about you,
not about what she did, what you noticed about you,
and how you were able to seem more connected to her.
Instead of going off into these stories that you create
(48:19):
around what might be going on in her mind, we
want you to really focus on what's going on in
your mind and then challenge some of those beliefs. And
if she says no to the date, we would like
you to let her know that you completely understand why
she is concerned about starting to do this reboot and
(48:40):
let her know that at the same time that because
you love her so much and because you're coming to
all of these realizations that you can't be in contact
with her if you're not going to be doing this
reboot with her at least for the next month, and
so you want to go off and do the work
work that you need to do and let her do
(49:02):
whatever she needs to do in terms of the healing
she needs to do, and then ask her if it's
okay if you could call her in a month just
to see where the two of you are and if
anything has changed, and you will hopefully have done a
lot of work in that time, and maybe she'll have
done some healing in that time. And if she says yes,
then you'll call her in a month and you'll see
can you do the reboot? Then maybe you don't even
(49:24):
want to do the reboot. Then maybe you've come to
a place where you this is not what you want
to do, and maybe she doesn't want to do it.
So maybe you both will want the same thing, maybe
you will want different things, or maybe you both will
say we don't want to pursue this, but it will
take you out of that limbo that is very I
think anxiety provoking about like, well, what she doing? Is
she on the apps? Is she dating other people? What
(49:45):
does that mean that she sent me this photo of
dinner she was cooking. It will clarify something in a
very direct way. What is our status right now? And
what are we doing with each other? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (49:56):
Yeah? Yeah, that sounds good.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
One quick addition, we want you to end ephasize to
her that Nikki, I'm not asking you to trust me
because you can't right now. I'm asking you to give
me a chance to gain your trust. That's really all
I'm asking. And either I'll succeed and I think I might,
or I won't. But I'm not asking you to come
(50:19):
in blindly. I'm asking you to come in as a
skeptic and give me a chance to regain your trust.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
And the philosophy behind the one date at a time
is a little bit like people with addictions. They can't
say I will never use again, but they can say
I'm going to take this one day at a time.
And so you're going to take it one date at
a time as you're working on this, where you can
manage that smaller chunk of on this one date, can
(50:45):
I really tune into myself? Can I monitor my reactions
to things? And then you do it again on another date.
And so you're not saying to her, I will never
do this again. You're saying, if I do this kind
of work, there's a much higher likelihood that I will
never do this again.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
Yeah, awesome, Okay.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Great, we look forward to hearing back from you.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
Awesome guys that I really appreciate the time. Thank you
guys for the help.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
So I think this is one of those situations where
you think it's a discreete issue like should I get
back together with this girlfriend? But there are some underlying
issue that is driving it. And here we have this
idea that the other shoe is going to drop. First
it happened with his father, the other shoe dropped, and
then it happens with the first girlfriend. And he has
(51:41):
this belief that you can't get too comfortable because the
minute you get too comfortable, something bad will happen.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
And I think that what happened with his father was
actually really important to here, because I think for Mark,
the idea that if the person that you know so well,
your father, you didn't know this about them, and you
can suddenly be taken out of school and given this bombshell,
then how can you trust people? And I think that
combined with this insecurity that he came with that doesn't
(52:10):
recognize his own strengths and what he has to offer,
I think those things together, the dad, the experience with
a girlfriend, and that insecurity have really set him up
to have these issues in relationships and he's going to
have them until he deals with them. And I'm so
glad that he's in therapy, and I'm so glad that
he's really taking it seriously. You can see this is
(52:31):
someone who wants to figure this out and who wants
to do the work.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
That's true. After the second time that this happened, he
went to therapy. His girlfriend said you need to go
to therapy, and instead of hemming and huying or saying
I'll just cut back on my drinking, he said yes,
and he went to therapy. And I think that speaks volumes.
And I hope that when he calls her, whether or
not she decides to go on a date with him,
that she can really take in what he's saying, because
(52:57):
I think it's going to take a lot of courage
for him to do that, and so I hope that
it's received. Well, you're listening to Dear Therapist for my
Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. So, Guy,
(53:24):
we heard back from Mark, and let's hear what happened
for him.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Hi, Guy, and Laurie hope all as well. So since
our talk, I worked on the journaling exercise. Honestly, I
found it to be extremely helpful. You know, these last
few weeks have been extremely hard on me. You know,
I've been very down on myself pretty much every day
(53:51):
it's just a hard time and I just blame myself
every day for ruining the relationship. You know, something that
I was so great, something that I thought would be forever,
and my actions and my words closed too much harm.
And yeah, it's been rough, but the journaling was great,
(54:15):
you know, a nice little reminder that, you know, just
something to pick myself up as opposed to putting myself down,
which is something I just like found myself doing a
lot recently. In terms of the conversation with Niki, we
had a pretty long conversation. I told her I feel
I told everything, and unfortunately she just did not want
(54:38):
to go on a date. She just said she still
needed space and that she was like upset and just
can't get over like the words I said there. I
don't blame her at all, I know it. You know
that I hurt her and it wasn't right and that's
just not something you say to someone you care about.
(54:58):
But hopefully could revisit this in a month and you know,
maybe the space makes you realize something. I just can't
give up on the hope, So we'll see what happens.
Thank you guys so much for the help. I really
appreciate it, and I did find it to be very helpful.
(55:20):
Take care, guys.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
It sounds like things are still really rough for him,
and yet he found the conversation helpful. And I think
that's because when we understand more about our role in
a situation, and when we get more clear about what
it's really about, it gives us a path forward. It
might not be a path forward with NICKI, but it
gives us a path forward.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
And I think that he needs a little bit of
time to really employ self forgiveness. Sometimes you need to
get a little bit more distant from things before you
can look back and go, yes, I made mistakes which
he can see and accepts, and that he needs to
be able to get to that place of self forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Well right. I think the self forgiveness is so important
because you can't make progress when you are self flagellating.
And I don't think he can really do the work
that he needs to do when he's in this place
of blaming himself. You know, there's this saying hope is
not a good strategy, so he needs to do more
than hope. He keeps talking about hope, but I think
(56:27):
what he needs to do is he needs to do
the work. And I think he's finally gotten the wake
up call and now he just needs to act on it.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
So Mark, if you're listening, this is the time to
practice self forgiveness and to really do that work.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Next week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 4 (56:49):
I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in
a sense because then people ask you like about your history,
and it's embarrassing one to be free and single. You know,
when you mentioned that to people, they're always like shocked,
and I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with
us by go smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at
iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric. We
can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
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