December 31, 2024 • 51 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week we’re in session with Lauren, a woman in her 50s who feels shame and embarrassment about her limited sexual and romantic experience. We help her recognize the real reasons she felt unable to have sex for so many years and how those same dynamics are still holding her back.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in
a sense because then people ask you about your history,
and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single.
You know, when you mentioned that to people, that are
always like shocked, And I've had people say, oh gosh,
what's wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
First. A quick note therapist is going national purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician mental health professional or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:18):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Hey guy, Hi Laurie. So I think we have a
really interesting letter today. It goes like this, Dear therapists.
I'm fifty three years old and I have never been
married and have no children. I didn't have a boyfriend
until I was thirty two and lost my virginity with
him when I was thirty two. We dated for four years.
(01:49):
It was not a good relationship. Since then, I've had
a few relationships, but nothing lasting. I feel a lot
of shame and embarrassment over this, so much so that
I think I avoid dating. I don't have to share
this with anyone. I even feel embarrassed putting it and
writing to you. It actually makes me WinCE and I
feel like such a loser. Admitting that I didn't have
a boyfriend until I was thirty two and was a
(02:10):
virgin until then too. It just makes me want to
run and hide. I feel like it's a dirty secret
I carry around with me. I'm very lonely and feel
this shame or secret is holding me back from entering
into the loving adult intimate relationship. I crave Can you
help me get over or work through this shame? I
feel thank you, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, I feel really bad for Lauren, just because shame
is such a toxic feeling. Shame means that we feel
really bad about who we are as a person. You know,
guilt is about an action, Shame is about who you are.
And so to feel so bad fundamentally about who she
is for decades, I'm glad, she wrote, And I really
(02:50):
hope you can help them.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm so glad, she wrote too, because shame prevents people
from getting the things that they want in life. What
it does is it makes them hide. They feel like
they can't show the truth of who they are to anybody,
that they are fundamentally unlovable. And so I think what
she's got here is not just an issue around she
didn't have sex until she was thirty two, and that's
(03:13):
her big secret, But it's also this question of she
didn't have love and what the shame does is it
prevents her from finding the love that she wants, and.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's prevented her from doing that. Interestingly, even after she
had sex and had a relationship, it didn't free her
up enough. That shame was so deep that it continued
even after. So I would really be interested in finding
out why what happened that the shame is so deep.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, let's go talk to her.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, you're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
We'll be back after a quick break. Gottlieb and I'm
Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
So Hi Lauren, Hi Laurie.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Great to have you on the show.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So we would like to hear a little bit more
of these feelings that you've had about not dating until
a later age, or about being a virgin until a
later age. Can you tell us a little bit of
the dating history.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I dated a little in my twenties, not very much.
I think I dated more, but just very casual.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Never a boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
When I was in Spain, I studied abroad, maybe I
think I started dating more. I probably felt more free
there and I dated, but I never got involved with
anyone seriously, just kissed and made out really nothing more
than that. Then I dated like a few people, and
then when I was thirty two, I met this guy
(04:55):
and we started dating.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
And he was the first one that I had sex with, and.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
My first like real boyfriend, maybe second real boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Okay, who's the maybe first real boyfriend?
Speaker 5 (05:08):
A guy that I met through work.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I think he was probably a little bit more into
me than I wasn't to him, but because of his
religious differences, he didn't want to continue dating me because
it was a matter of a matter of like my
converting to his way of thinking to religions.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I'm wondering about this person that you met when you
were thirty two. So you said you dated a little
bit in Spain, and then you dated some other people,
nothing really much went anywhere. What was it about this
person that made you think I want to be in
a relationship with him and I want to have sex
with him.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Well, I guess what or not I wanted to be
in a relationship with him. I think maybe in part
I was kind of desperate at that point, and he
seemed like a decent guy, and we to do a
lot of the same things. And as far as the sex,
I made him wait for a while.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Why I don't know.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
I guess some a friend of.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Mine said, you can't quite trust him, and I don't know.
I guess I just put it off. I don't really
know that I was scared. I don't think I was scared. Yeah,
I'm not really sure. I guess that's I think.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
I just maybe it was a matter of trust with
him that I made him wait.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
You said you were desperate. You used that word. Do
you mean desperate to be in a relationship or desperate
to lose your virginity? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Probably both. I really wanted a boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
And obviously I really wanted to have sex too, And
I think, you know, he came at a time and
I was like, wow, you know, I maybe I felt
it's been a while now, but maybe I felt like
it was now or never, and that he seemed like
an okay guy. And also, in thinking back, I wonder if,
(06:59):
like I felt that he wasn't going.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
To demand a lot of me emotionally.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So maybe I kind of felt safe with him in
a sense.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Although I did tell.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Him that he was my first boyfriend and that I
was a virgin until that point.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
How did he react to that information he shared with him.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
I think he was a little surprised, but he didn't
really say, oh my god, why nothing. I don't really
think he had much of a reaction other than that
you said.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
That you thought he wouldn't demand too much of you emotionally.
What do you mean when.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Laurie asked what was his reaction? I really didn't think.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
He would say, really, Lauren, why, Like why haven't you
been involved in relationships until now?
Speaker 5 (07:46):
Like what's going on? So I think that he's not going.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
To dig any deeper into reasons why where I think
somebody else might have, you know, maybe questioned me on it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So he was safe because you knew that he would
collude with you in not having to talk about something
that felt very shameful to you.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
I think.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So I'm glave to hear a little bit about how
you were raised, Like what were the values around sex
and dating in your household when you were growing up
or a teenager? What was the messaging around sex and
especially you know, women and sex.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
So well, I'll start off by saying, my dad died
when I was nine, and my mom never dated anyone
after that.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
I think one of the reasons.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
My mom never dated anybody after that is because she
was overweight and I think she was really ashamed of.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
That and just felt overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And she had five kids that she was left to
raise on her own, and you know, I just think
she looked at that is that this is what I'm
going to do, and never bothered to date.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
And my mom as far as dating and sex, I
think was almost like my mom did not want me
to date. I will say that I think because I'm
the baby. I was the baby of the family.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And my other two sisters they dated, they had boyfriends young.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
My one sister got married when she was eighteen. But
with me, it was kind of.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Like a different story that she did not want me
to have boyfriends. She really didn't want me to have
a lot of friends either, but she definitely did not
want me to date.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
And as far as sex, she really never said anything
about sex.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
She was kind of embarrassed of in talking about it
with me when I would ask her stuff. But I
never got the idea of like, oh, sex was dirty,
nothing like that.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
She just didn't talk about it. She didn't think it
was appropriate What was.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Your understanding of the different standards she had for you,
like you shouldn't date or even have that many friends,
versus your sisters were clearly dating if they were getting
married so young.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
I didn't understand it, especially when I was going through
it was really young.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
It just seemed very unfair to me. She did not
want me to go out and socialize. There was a
dance in junior high that I really worked hard on,
and I it was expected to be there by my teacher,
and my mother would not let me go.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Did your mom tell you when you said, you know,
I worked on this and I'm expected to be there.
What was your mom's explanation for why she didn't want
you to go?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I cannot remember. I just know she said no, I
just wasn't going to go. I don't really think she
gave much of an explanation, because I know I pestered
her heir as to why. You know, she used to
say because I said so a lot. So I'm guessing
she probably said something like that.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
You're saying she didn't want me to have that many
friends either. What was the reason for that?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I think, you know, as an adult now and looking back,
I think that took away.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
My time from her. I think she kind of like
used me as like almost like a companion in a sense.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
When one of my uncles actually commented that, like when
I moved out.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Finally, finally in being what age.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Thirty, Yeah, she didn't have anybody and I wanted to
help take care of her, but I decided to move out.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So how much do you think it might be related
the fact that she was giving you these messages from
a very young age. Look, your dad's not around, it's
just me. I'm sacrificing everything for you five kids because
I'm not dating anymore. I'm just raising you and you,
Lauren the youngest, you should at least stay around and
keep me company as a thank you or take care
(11:34):
of me a little bit. How much do you think
that played in to your feelings in your teens and
twenties about the fact that if you date and have sex,
it will take you away and you'll be betraying your
mom's wishes.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Really, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I mean, my mom never came out and said, you
know you owe me this, or you know you.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Need to stay at home.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, have you felt it that?
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Yeah? I did feel it?
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, I mean I'm sure it played a role. Another
thing that came into play was my sister, who's two
years older than me. She's very pretty, and cousins and
aunts and people at school and people that knew us
would always say, my gosh, your sister is so much
prettier than you. It must be really hard to have
(12:20):
for you to have a sister that's so much prettier
than you.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
So I heard that a.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Lot, and people wanting to fix her up with people
and not me. So I just kind of got this
message that, geez, I just there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, we can hear that in your letter, that there's
a sense of feeling like you're unlovable. And what you're
describing are two things. One is you're describing what we
call a parentified child. So often this happens when a
parent dies and one of the children is expected to
(12:57):
sort of fulfill that role somehow for the remaining parent.
Your mom didn't date, so she didn't have companionship, but
she had you. She didn't want you to socialize, she
didn't want you to have friends. She didn't want you
to leave her in whatever way that might have been,
(13:18):
and in fact, you stayed there until you were thirty.
Even if she didn't say I need you to do this,
you felt her need. You worried about her loneliness, You
worried about the fact that she didn't have anybody, but
you weren't focused on the fact that you were lonely
and you didn't have anybody. And then you got this
(13:40):
other message, Well, your sister's so pretty, and so it's
sort of like a perfect storm where it makes sense
that you would have all kinds of confusion around your desires,
your need, and your love ability all at the same time.
And that's where shame comes in. It sounds like you
(14:01):
have so much shame around who you are, what your
past is. And what struck me so much was when
I asked you, why did you pick that person at
thirty two, and you describe yourself as well, I was desperate,
I wasn't really sure I trusted him, I wasn't really
sure I liked him that much. That you were sort
(14:22):
of just going for whoever would take you, as opposed
to going for who you truly wanted to be with.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, I think you're right, and I think I've done
that with almost everybody else that I've dated since then.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
What made you move out at thirty? What happened at
that point?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
There wasn't like some kind of defining event or anything.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
It was just this is it. I have to move
out on my own.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
If I ever want to have any kind of adult
life or adult relationship, I have to separate myself from
my mom because she's not doing me any favors.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
How did your mom react when you told her that
you made the decision to move out.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
She was really pissed off for a few days, and
I think the day that I moved on the next station,
she was fine fine. I think maybe my uncle talked
to her and said, you know, look, she deserves to
be on her own. And he's the one who had
commented before that you know she sees you as a
companion because she doesn't have anybody.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Lauren, when you say that you stayed with her till
you were thirty, and that doing that really cost you
in terms of your own independence, your ability to pursue
in your own life and certainly your own relationships, and
that at thirty you finally say to Hi, I need
to move on with my own life and her response
(15:42):
is to get pissed off. What that tells me is that,
even if she didn't verbilize this to you directly, the
edict of your role, Lauren is to be here with
me and keep me company and be my companion and
to prioritize my needs over yours. And I think that
(16:02):
that edict is something that you took in so strongly
that it really delayed your ability to start life until
you were thirty years old instead of starting into taiteen
or before or twenty or something like that. So there
was a huge delay there. And what's interesting or unfortunate
(16:22):
rather is that to me and I think to Laurie,
that's so clear that you were staying out of loyalty,
out of love for your mum. But what registered for
you at the time was that you were staying because
you're unlovable and because you know, you're not as pretty
as your sister, and so you're going to have a
(16:43):
hard time finding someone to love you and to want
to have sex with you. That's what really got engraved
almost into your own head, and not I'm staying out
of loyalty. I'm staying for all these noble reasons in
your head got interpreted into him staying because of shameful ones.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
If you're asking if that's correct.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
I think it probably probably is, although I didn't realize
it at the time, And yeah, I must have been
scared or like you said, probably ashamed.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
But also I was afraid of her reaction. It's like,
oh my gosh, she's going to flip out.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Why were you so afraid of her reaction? You were
afraid that what would happen if she got upset with you.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
I guess that she wouldn't talk to me for maybe
a week or so, not that she had ever done
that before. My mom wasn't want to give the silent
treatment or anything. I was afraid that she would get
mad at me. And also my mom was like bad off,
like physically, she had a lot of trouble getting around,
so she depended on me to help her.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
So even after I moved out, like I would go
over and fix.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Dinner all the time for and she never once after
that said anything about me moving out.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
How did she feel about you having the boyfriend?
Speaker 5 (17:57):
She liked him?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Okay, when we first started dating, she get mad. She
made comments to my sister that I might will just
go ahead and marry this guy because I'm just spending
all my time with him, and I assume she thought
I was having sex, or assumed I was.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
She didn't like it.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
She didn't like that you were having sex in your thirties.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah, she didn't think it was appropriate because I
wasn't married. And this came up with another guy after that,
to which I responded, well, do you want me to
be a virgin until I die?
Speaker 5 (18:28):
You know, like what if I never get married?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And her response to that was.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yes, please, Okay, you know, it's just something like you know.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
The first thing that you said, though, was she commented, well,
you're just spending all your time with him. She is
very upset when you don't spend time with her, and
you're kind of saying, well, no, she wouldn't do that. No,
She's not a person who gets upset about these things.
She is incredibly upset about any bid for independence that
(19:04):
you make. And I'm wondering when you went to Spain,
and I think it was in your twenties and that's
when you started dating. What was her reaction to that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, she did not want me to go and to
study abroad. As you can probably guess, we're shocked, shocked,
but I was set on it. I'm like, I'm going,
you know, too bad. So my aunt was like, oh,
this is a great thing. You know, I'm really happy.
You should be happy. Once it was determined that I
(19:32):
was going, but she was very upset. She was crying.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
When you described that time in Spain earlier, you said,
you know, you were in Spain, you started dating, you
kiss some guys, and then you said, but it never
went anywhere. I wonder if part of the reason it
didn't go anywhere is because there you are in Spain
and there's a part of you that says, I really
want this, I need this. I am an adult and
(19:57):
I am in my twenties and this is something I
really enjoy. And there's another part of you that said,
but you're betraying your mother. And I have a feeling
that that's why nothing ever went anywhere. That the minute
you started to experience joy, you also experienced guilt, and
(20:18):
that the guilt won every single time, so you never
got to see would this go anywhere? Do I want
to be with this person? There was this voice of
your mother and this thought about her being so upset
with you and somehow betraying her, leaving her, abandoning her,
and it wasn't until you actually moved out that you
(20:40):
were able to say, I want to have a boyfriend.
I'm going to go forward with this.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I'm sure that you're right. I think it probably did
have something to do with it.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
And also one of the things.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I will say is I just felt very ashamed of
like my body, like I have a complex with my
legs being big. So maybe that and then the guilt too.
I never thought or the fear of the reaction of
my mom, of my mom's reaction.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
You know what, Lauren, It's so much easier to acknowledge
the feelings of I'm not good enough, my legs are
too big, than to go to the other place, which
is I'm really hurting my mother.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Oh, I never thought about that, Laurie.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
To Laurie and I, this seems very very clear how
powerful the messaging of your mom was. Oh but really,
from the age of ten on to you, your role
is to be her companion, is to be there. That
messaging was so clear to.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
You, and I knew it had something to do with
my mom making me feel guilty, whether intentionally or not,
but never so deeply that I, you know, I thought
it was a lot of just self shame.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
So this is giving me a lot to think about.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I'm curious about the relationship that lasted four years. Four
years is a good chunk of time. What happened there
that the relationship didn't work out?
Speaker 5 (22:16):
We argued a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
He lied just about little stupid things, and that would
just it would make me insane, you know, like silly
stuff like oh I didn't put the tomato and the refrigerator, like, well,
there was no one else here, of course you did,
you like things like that would just drive me up
a wall. So and then he lied about bigger things too,
(22:39):
and he wasn't that smart.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So at what point did you realize you actually did
not want to be with him? It sounds like pretty
early on.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Pretty early on.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, I remember, like you like, when I was alone,
we'd be like God, you like, give me a sign,
you like, should I be with him?
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Or shouldn't?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And now I look back and say, well, if you're
asking God all the time, then there's your.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
Sign, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
You know, if there's that much doubt, then it's not
the right relationship for you.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And you stayed because you felt like this is the
best I can get.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Yeah, Yeah, when you.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Had sex with him. That was your first time. What
was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It was good.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
I really enjoyed it, like I always enjoyed having sex
with him. After the next guy that I had sex with,
I realized that I was really just having sex with
the first boyfriend and the next one it was you know,
it was really good. It was making love then having
sex at the same time. It was more emotional with
the second person.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Did some of the shame go away? Meaning you stopped
worrying about how somebody was going to see your body?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I mean I still felt a little embarrassed, but not
to the point where I wasn't not going to not
have sex.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
What happened to the guy that you felt emotionally connected to.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
I think I did something really stupid.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
We'd been dating a few weeks, and before I met him,
a girl that I worked with wanted to set me
up with a friend of hers.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
So it took a few weeks to get that rolling.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
So I had been dating this guy who I really liked,
I would say, blake fell in love with him.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
I think he had something to do that weekend or something.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
I went out with the guy who the girl that
I worked with set me up on and I told
him about it, and I probably shouldn't have and I
think it probably hurt him. And we hung out once
or twice after that, but it was very clear that
you was not going to date me after that.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
These days, are you on any dating apps? Are you
open to dating? Where are you at these days in
terms of that?
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Well, I'm open dating.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I am on Tender right now, but I don't think
it's the best website. It's a lot of people just
looking for sex. And I've talked to a few people,
but with these dating websites, you'll talk a few times
and then the conversation ends, so I haven't been too
serious about it.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Do you feel you holding back from really giving this
a go?
Speaker 5 (25:22):
Maybe maybe I could be. I guess I'm afraid to.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Get into a relationship in a sense because then people
ask you, like about your history, and it's embarrassing one
to be fifty three and single. I know children, and
you know when you mentioned that to people, male or female,
they're always like shocked. And I've had people say, oh gosh,
(25:48):
what's wrong with you? This man said this to me
this one day and I started to tear up and
I walked away, and he came back a few weeks
later and you know apologized, you know, said he was sorry.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
And then another man just said, well, you must be
a real pain in the ass if you're still single.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's a little bit like the people who said to you, Oh,
your sister's so pretty, how do you feel in her shadow?
It's really unfortunate that those things were said to you.
And when I think about when you say, well, I'm
just on Tinder, which is sort of a more of
a hookup site. Sure people find relationships on it, but
as guys, that it doesn't sound like you're trying that hard,
(26:29):
and that when you did find that guy that you
say you were falling in love with, you went on
that other date anyway and then told him about it,
knowing that it probably wouldn't go over well. So there's
this element of even though you want this very badly,
you find ways to sabotage it. And I think that
if you and your mom are both lonely, you have
(26:51):
that in common, that there's a connection between you. Even
if you're living separately, you're both these women who are
lonely and unpartnered. But if you become less lonely, then
she really is alone in her loneliness.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
So, Laurie, Actually, my mom passed away like ten years.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Ago, okay, but I think that there might have been
a time and maybe even you're still carrying this around
that there's still some sort of betrayal of her. If
you become less lonely, you lose that connection with her.
But that was something the two of you both had together,
(27:33):
was that loneliness. Nobody talked about it, but it was there.
You didn't have a parent who said, I really want
you to find connection. I really want you to have
a full life. I want you to have friends and
family and relationships and all of those things that you desire.
Sounded like your mother was really not supportive of you
(27:56):
branching out and having a social life. Who are your
friends now, in terms of do you have close friends?
Do you have friends who know your quote unquote secret?
Do you have friends who you talk to about wanting
to find a partner? Do your friends who really know you?
Speaker 5 (28:14):
I have two good friends.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I have more friends than that, but two, I guess
pretty close friends as far as I'm knowing my secret,
not completely.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
No, they don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Like I didn't date until I was very old, and
that I didn't lose my virginity until I was old.
I've just kind of like, oh, yeah, I was older
when I lost it, and no one's pressed me.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I do want to point out, Lauren, that this very
strong link in your head between if I only lost
my virginity at thirty two, it's a shameful thing. Period.
They're no extenuating circumstances is in your head, but you have.
I grew up in a household in which the messaging
(29:00):
I got was that sex was not something you did
before you got married, and I really internalized that strongly.
And my mom had some health issues and she needed
a lot of assistance and companionship, and so I stayed
with her until I was thirty out of loyalty and
the really desired to care for her because she was
(29:21):
really in need. Both of those stories are a true
and be paint you in a very positive light relationship wise. Right,
This is somebody who's loyal, This is somebody who's kind,
this is somebody who's compassionate. And those stories are truer
than the one you've had in your head all these
years of there was something wrong with me. I wasn't lovable, enough,
(29:45):
or I wasn't as pretty as my sister, and therefore
that's why I wasn't dating, because that wasn't the issue.
And I think that you really need to think strongly
about changing the story in your head to one that's
more accurate and that's much less self damaging and self
(30:06):
flagellating and self demeaning, and there is no shame in
the real story.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think if I keep
telling myself I'm not good enough or pretty or pretty enough,
that I'm just going to keep living my life based
on those thoughts. Some things that you guys were saying today,
I really never really really considered.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Them very much.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
I didn't really relate it so much to my mom
as strongly as you guys think that it is related
to her.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
In our relationship, we've.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Talked a lot about your mom. I'm curious to know
what you remember about your dad. You said you were
nine when he died. What was your relationship like with
your dad, and what do you remember about him?
Speaker 5 (30:58):
It wasn't like a real close relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
One thing I remember is my dad was angry a lot,
and my mom and dad argued a lot. Then when
I was when I was seven, they went to see
a marriage counselor.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And how do you know that?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
I think maybe my grandmom told me.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I'm not really sure because my mom really my mom
did not talk about this kind of stuff, but I
know that's what they did because I remember one time.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
I think as kids, we waited in the car for them.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
So I guess maybe one of my brothers or sisters
said it was like some kind of counseling or something.
So after they went to counseling, their relationship was so
much better, Like they held hands, they told each other
they loved the other in front of us, and they
went out on dates and we started doing more things
as a family. So then I didn't think of my
(31:51):
dad as being so angry. But that didn't last very
long because then he got sick.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So your mom must have been especially devastated that they
had just gotten their marriage on track. They were much closer,
and then your dad got sick.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
I'm sure she was devastated, But my mom just really
didn't talk about her feelings, you know, never talked about
missing him. My mom was really closed emotionally.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
How did your family handle it when he died?
Speaker 5 (32:25):
We were all really devastated.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
We were all very upset, and I was very scared
for years, Like as a teenager, I was just so
scared that my mom or grandmam was going to die
because my grandmother lived with us.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Did she live with you when your dad was alive
or did she move in afterward?
Speaker 5 (32:45):
She lived with us ever since I could remember.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
I think she probably moved in maybe when maybe before
I was born. She lived with us. I mean my grandmother.
She was a deer. She was the sweetest thing. They
broke them a little on her.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
How old were you when your grandmother died?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I was thirty, so it was so right around the
time that I moved out.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
But Lauren, do you live with your mom? Because you
didn't want it to be alone and she needed the companionship.
She had the companionship she had her mom. Why did
she need you to be another third companion.
Speaker 5 (33:26):
She might not have, I guess.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
And I wanted to be there, to just be there
for my grandmom. And she, by the way, wanted me
to date and have friends. And my grandmother would say, oh, Lauren,
I hope you find someone.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
You know, I want you to be happy. You know,
get out, you need to get out and date.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
If you go out with friends, you know you'll end
up meeting someone. So after my grandmother was in a
nursing home, then it was just me and my mom,
and I.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
Guess I felt guilty and leaving her alone, Yeah, because
now she didn't have the companionship of her mom, and
then she'd be losing you too.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
One of the things that happened sometimes in families is
that we look at our parents and we say, well,
I want something different from myself, and yet there are
so many reasons that we're not aware of that we
end up creating exactly the same thing. And I think
what you've done out of some kind of connection loyalty
(34:28):
is created something very similar, which is you are alone
and you are lonely.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I am alone. I've lived alone for twenty
three years. Now, I am lonely.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Lourene, we have some advice for you.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
What we were thinking about was this very famous quote
by Carl Jung, and it goes like this, nothing has
a stronger influenced psychologically on their environment and especially on
their children than the unlived life of the parent. And
we were thinking about that in terms of your relationship
(35:12):
with your mother, and what a profound effect that has
had on you and your life, whether you were aware
of it or not. That again, the narrative that you
had for yourself was I'm not attractive enough, I'm unlovable,
something's wrong with me. But there was a whole other
narrative which had to do with your mother's concern about
(35:36):
not having you as your companion. And we want to
free you from those shackles because your mother's not here anymore.
You're fifty three years old, you're lonely, and you know
what you want and really nothing is holding you back
at this point but you and the faulty narrative that
(35:59):
you're caring around.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
So with that in mind, we have two tasks for you.
We would like you to write a letter that you
think your grandmother would write to you, because she is
the one that saw what was going on. She's the
one that said, no, I want you to get out there,
I want you to date, I want you to have
a life. We would like you to write a letter
(36:22):
from her to you in which she acknowledges the deep
sacrifice you made by being loyal to your mom, by
being her companion. And we would like that letter to
be one in which she described to you how amazing
she thought that was that you were taking such great
care of her daughter that she could die knowing that
(36:47):
her daughter was well taken care of. But what she
wants for you now, most of all, is for you
to start taking care of you.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I don't want you to spare how amazing your grand
mother thinks and thought what you did was, how amazing
the sacrifice was, how loyal, how wonderful, how caring, how kind,
and how noble. All right, So that's the first task, okay.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And then we have sort of a two part second task.
And the first part of it is that you have
this narrative that something is damaged about you, something is
wrong with you, because you started dating and having sex
later in life. I mean want you to just entertain
the idea that you started your adulthood at thirty one.
(37:38):
That was when you left the house. You left the
house at thirty one with unprocessed grief about your father's death,
with feelings of devotion towards your mom that took precedence
over fidelity to your own needs, and also a very
(38:01):
clear sense of knowing inside of yourself that you wanted
an adult life and indeed, within a year of leaving
the house, you got a boyfriend, you started having sex,
you were in a relationship, it wasn't the right relationship.
Some of these myths that you were carrying around, like
you're not attractive enough, or you're not good enough, or
you're damaged goods because you were starting so late, were
(38:22):
really shown not to be true. But every time you
would confront that, you would sabotage something like there was
that guy that you really liked and you went on
that other date and then you told him about it.
It seems like there was still that story that was
holding you back, and we don't want that to happen anymore.
(38:43):
So we want you to manage your dating life in
a way that is not self sabotaging. Right now, you're
on a dating app called Tinder, which tends to be
more hookup oriented and maybe excuse a little bit younger,
but it's not enough, and you don't seem to be
getting very farther. So what we want you to do
(39:04):
is we want you to get on many dating apps
knowing what you know now, which is, oh, actually I
had a pretty typical course of things. If you think
about my beginning being at thirty one when I moved up,
things were pretty typical. I had some low self esteem issues,
I had some unprocessed grief, I had some blurred boundaries
(39:26):
with my mother, so to a lot of people, and
so instead of thinking of yourself as like this odd person,
we want you to really embrace how typical you are
if you look at it from a more accurate place.
And then we want you to go on these dating apps.
We want you to talk to your friends about how
you really want to be set up and how you
(39:46):
really want to meet someone, and we want you to
not have these long back and forth with people, because
we want you to get on a zoom date. And
you're going to do that by asking someone out. And
you're not going to ask out someone that you well, yeah,
maybe that's the best I can get. You're going to
ask out the person that you are most excited about,
(40:08):
and we want you not to ask yourself the question
will he like me? But the question is I want
to see whether I'm going to like him. He's the
one who's auditioning, because you forget that there's another side
to this equation, which is anybody who goes on a
date with you is going to really wonder is she
going to like me? How do I look? Am I
going to be interesting enough? Just like that guy who
(40:30):
really liked you, he was so hurt that you went
out with someone else, and it didn't occur to you
that someone could feel that way about you.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
We want you to be the one that texts the initiative.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Right, because really this is about you embracing your freedom.
You have absolutely nothing to lose here and you have
so much to gain, and so we want you to
commit to going on a zoom date with someone that
is interesting to you every two weeks, giving you two
weeks between dates, because we don't just want you to
pick someone because you have this deadline.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
So we want to hear your assessment of him, like
here's what I liked about him, Here's what I didn't.
Here's where I think you know we're a good fit.
Is where I think we're not. That's your focus. He's
applying for the job. You're the one doing the hiring.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
So show up with the attitude that basically I'm looking
to see if I like.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
You yes, And if the end of that one the
answers are yes, then you say, hey, let's do this again, okay, And.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
To get in touch with the fact that you're showing
up to that date, not as somebody who doesn't have kids,
as somebody who's child free, not as somebody who was
never married, as somebody who never had to go through
a bit of divorce that made her resentful to it
or man. In other words, you really need to understand
that you are an amazing catch.
Speaker 5 (41:55):
Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Lauren unleashed.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Great, all right, So we look forward to hearing how
it goes.
Speaker 5 (42:06):
Thank you both so much.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
I appreciate your time and your advice and your insight.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Lauric well off she goes.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Into the wild, I think she's going to do it.
I think she's going to write the letter. I think
she's going to sign up for some websites. But the
thing I'm most interested in is that if she does
go on a date, can she go with that attitude
of I'm interviewing you, of I'm checking out to see
if you're for me, not vice versa. That to me,
if she can do that, that would be the most
(42:45):
promising thing.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
I just keep thinking about the unlived life of the
parent and how much that has affected her life, and
I think it's going to take her some time to
unshackle herself. One thing I noticed when we were talking
to her was that she's very much in her head.
There wasn't a lot of emotion there. And also these
(43:08):
were things that she was considering for the very first
time that nobody had ever talked to her about the
connection between what went on with her relationship with her
mother and what goes on in her relationships with men,
and so hearing it for the first time, I think
she could hear it on an intellectual level, but I
(43:30):
don't know that it was really sinking in on an
emotional level. And so I think that writing the letter
from her grandmother maybe will help her to integrate some
of that on a deeper level and hopefully prepare her
a bit better for the dates that she goes on
so that she stops sabotaging herself. One thing we see
(43:50):
so often is people, no matter what age they are,
if they haven't worked through something, they end up sabotaging
themselves so that they create a situation where it makes
it impossible to get the very thing that they want
the most. You're listening to dear therapists for my Heart Radio.
(44:15):
We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
So we heard back from Lauren. We gave her a
lot of dating related assignments. Let's see how she did.
This is Lauren.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
So I did the I guess the homework. We can say.
Speaker 7 (44:43):
I wrote the letter to myself from my grandmother's point
of view, and I guess I was kind of expecting
to have I don't know, I had some kind of reaction,
and I really didn't have much of a reaction, but
I think it kind of prompted me to start thinking
about my uncle, who was at my mom's house a
(45:04):
lot and I'm close to and I remember he commented
a lot on you know, saying that it was kind
of unfair that my mom used me as a like
her companion is the term that he used, and that
you know, he understood why I wanted to move out,
and he was happy that I did it and comforted
(45:27):
me when I did, and my mom got mad at me.
And then I remembered something that after my mom had
passed away, he actually he did thank me, and I guy,
it's funny that you said to write a letter from
my grandmother thanking me. I do remember him thanking me
for taking care of his sister. He said, even though
it's your mom, you know, I really you know, it
(45:49):
was nice that that she had you. She was lucky
to have you to to take care of her, and
that he appreciated it. Then, as far as the dating,
so I did sign up for two other dating websites.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
I've been talking to a number of guys. So right
now I'm talking to someone and he seems like a
really nice guy. We have similar interest in music. We
get excited about the same music.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
But that's about as far as we've gone. I think
we've had maybe three or four email exchanges, so I
haven't spoken with him yet over the phone or video,
but I imagine that's going to come very soon. I think
it was a good idea that you told me to
get on more serious websites so that I can kind
(46:41):
of push myself and start dating. So anyway, I wanted
to thank you guys for talking to me. It gave
me a lot to think about the first week after
I spoke with you, it was pretty emotional for me.
I was just thinking about a lot of things, and
I've decided to go into therapy.
Speaker 5 (47:03):
I start this week. I think Tuesday is my first appointment.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Hopefully it will help me with a number of the
issues that I have, so again, thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I think when people first hear Lauren's response, they might
think that grandmother thing didn't really work. But as therapists,
we see so often that what people do with a
conversation often leads them to some kind of growth or change,
even if it's not exactly as we anticipate, and I
(47:45):
think that's exactly what happened here. So she wrote the
letter to her grandmother, and she didn't have what felt
to her like an emotional experience, but I think she
did have an emotional experience because it brought to mind
an emotional connection with her uncle and how her uncle
was so supportive of her having a life and so
(48:07):
appreciative of what she had done for his sister, her mother.
And I think that's exactly what her grandmother did and
said when she was alive too.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
It's funny because we chose the grandmother because we wanted
her to see something through the eyes of a benevolent
figure in her childhood. And she was like, oh, you
know what, maybe that's not the right benevolent figure. I'm
just gonna think of my uncle who was another benevolent figure.
So she did actually the assignment, she just did it
through the different eyes than we suggested. But I think
(48:43):
she was actually really on point with the assignment.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, absolutely, And I like that she did what we
asked about, finding dating sites or apps that were more
oriented toward what she's looking for, which is a serious relationship.
And she did start conversing with people, and I hope
that she will move it more quickly to let's have
a video chat. But I think that she sounded really
(49:07):
excited about the fact that there was this one guy
with whom she had this potential connection with and no
matter what happens with him, I think it will give
her more confidence moving forward to really embrace herself as
this independent adult who is entitled to have a loving,
reciprocal relationship. And I think that even though her letter
(49:27):
was about shame, ultimately, when you really examine the old
story and you help to revise it with a more
accurate current story, you free yourself from the shame and
you can see yourself more clearly, and you can see
your situation more clearly, and that liberates you so that
(49:48):
you can move forward.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
And therapy should really help her with that, and so
it's a really good move that she not only decided
to go into therapy within a week, but actually scheduled
depployment and is beginning the process. Very glad to hear that.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out a year.
Speaker 8 (50:10):
Later, and Guy had said that he didn't think I
understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie actually
later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to confront
those painful experiences because of what it might say about them,
and I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Big Go Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia
dot com.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs, Our Interns,
Our Door, Corwin and Silver Lyfton special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in
a sense because then people ask you about your history,
and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single.
You know, when you mentioned that to people, that are
always like shocked, And I've had people say, oh gosh,
what's wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
First. A quick note therapist is going national purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician mental health professional or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:18):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Hey guy, Hi Laurie. So I think we have a
really interesting letter today. It goes like this, Dear therapists.
I'm fifty three years old and I have never been
married and have no children. I didn't have a boyfriend
until I was thirty two and lost my virginity with
him when I was thirty two. We dated for four years.
(01:49):
It was not a good relationship. Since then, I've had
a few relationships, but nothing lasting. I feel a lot
of shame and embarrassment over this, so much so that
I think I avoid dating. I don't have to share
this with anyone. I even feel embarrassed putting it and
writing to you. It actually makes me WinCE and I
feel like such a loser. Admitting that I didn't have
a boyfriend until I was thirty two and was a
(02:10):
virgin until then too. It just makes me want to
run and hide. I feel like it's a dirty secret
I carry around with me. I'm very lonely and feel
this shame or secret is holding me back from entering
into the loving adult intimate relationship. I crave Can you
help me get over or work through this shame? I
feel thank you, Lauren.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, I feel really bad for Lauren, just because shame
is such a toxic feeling. Shame means that we feel
really bad about who we are as a person. You know,
guilt is about an action, Shame is about who you are.
And so to feel so bad fundamentally about who she
is for decades, I'm glad, she wrote, And I really
(02:50):
hope you can help them.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm so glad, she wrote too, because shame prevents people
from getting the things that they want in life. What
it does is it makes them hide. They feel like
they can't show the truth of who they are to anybody,
that they are fundamentally unlovable. And so I think what
she's got here is not just an issue around she
didn't have sex until she was thirty two, and that's
(03:13):
her big secret, But it's also this question of she
didn't have love and what the shame does is it
prevents her from finding the love that she wants, and.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's prevented her from doing that. Interestingly, even after she
had sex and had a relationship, it didn't free her
up enough. That shame was so deep that it continued
even after. So I would really be interested in finding
out why what happened that the shame is so deep.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, let's go talk to her.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, you're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
We'll be back after a quick break. Gottlieb and I'm
Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
So Hi Lauren, Hi Laurie.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Great to have you on the show.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So we would like to hear a little bit more
of these feelings that you've had about not dating until
a later age, or about being a virgin until a
later age. Can you tell us a little bit of
the dating history.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I dated a little in my twenties, not very much.
I think I dated more, but just very casual.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Never a boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
When I was in Spain, I studied abroad, maybe I
think I started dating more. I probably felt more free
there and I dated, but I never got involved with
anyone seriously, just kissed and made out really nothing more
than that. Then I dated like a few people, and
then when I was thirty two, I met this guy
(04:55):
and we started dating.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
And he was the first one that I had sex with, and.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
My first like real boyfriend, maybe second real boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Okay, who's the maybe first real boyfriend?
Speaker 5 (05:08):
A guy that I met through work.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I think he was probably a little bit more into
me than I wasn't to him, but because of his
religious differences, he didn't want to continue dating me because
it was a matter of a matter of like my
converting to his way of thinking to religions.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I'm wondering about this person that you met when you
were thirty two. So you said you dated a little
bit in Spain, and then you dated some other people,
nothing really much went anywhere. What was it about this
person that made you think I want to be in
a relationship with him and I want to have sex
with him.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Well, I guess what or not I wanted to be
in a relationship with him. I think maybe in part
I was kind of desperate at that point, and he
seemed like a decent guy, and we to do a
lot of the same things. And as far as the sex,
I made him wait for a while.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Why I don't know.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
I guess some a friend of.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Mine said, you can't quite trust him, and I don't know.
I guess I just put it off. I don't really
know that I was scared. I don't think I was scared. Yeah,
I'm not really sure. I guess that's I think.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
I just maybe it was a matter of trust with
him that I made him wait.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
You said you were desperate. You used that word. Do
you mean desperate to be in a relationship or desperate
to lose your virginity? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Probably both. I really wanted a boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
And obviously I really wanted to have sex too, And
I think, you know, he came at a time and
I was like, wow, you know, I maybe I felt
it's been a while now, but maybe I felt like
it was now or never, and that he seemed like
an okay guy. And also, in thinking back, I wonder if,
(06:59):
like I felt that he wasn't going.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
To demand a lot of me emotionally.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So maybe I kind of felt safe with him in
a sense.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Although I did tell.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Him that he was my first boyfriend and that I
was a virgin until that point.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
How did he react to that information he shared with him.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
I think he was a little surprised, but he didn't
really say, oh my god, why nothing. I don't really
think he had much of a reaction other than that
you said.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
That you thought he wouldn't demand too much of you emotionally.
What do you mean when.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Laurie asked what was his reaction? I really didn't think.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
He would say, really, Lauren, why, Like why haven't you
been involved in relationships until now?
Speaker 5 (07:46):
Like what's going on? So I think that he's not going.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
To dig any deeper into reasons why where I think
somebody else might have, you know, maybe questioned me on it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So he was safe because you knew that he would
collude with you in not having to talk about something
that felt very shameful to you.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
I think.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So I'm glave to hear a little bit about how
you were raised, Like what were the values around sex
and dating in your household when you were growing up
or a teenager? What was the messaging around sex and
especially you know, women and sex.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
So well, I'll start off by saying, my dad died
when I was nine, and my mom never dated anyone
after that.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
I think one of the reasons.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
My mom never dated anybody after that is because she
was overweight and I think she was really ashamed of.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
That and just felt overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And she had five kids that she was left to
raise on her own, and you know, I just think
she looked at that is that this is what I'm
going to do, and never bothered to date.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
And my mom as far as dating and sex, I
think was almost like my mom did not want me
to date. I will say that I think because I'm
the baby. I was the baby of the family.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
And my other two sisters they dated, they had boyfriends young.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
My one sister got married when she was eighteen. But
with me, it was kind of.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Like a different story that she did not want me
to have boyfriends. She really didn't want me to have
a lot of friends either, but she definitely did not
want me to date.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
And as far as sex, she really never said anything
about sex.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
She was kind of embarrassed of in talking about it
with me when I would ask her stuff. But I
never got the idea of like, oh, sex was dirty,
nothing like that.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
She just didn't talk about it. She didn't think it
was appropriate What was.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Your understanding of the different standards she had for you,
like you shouldn't date or even have that many friends,
versus your sisters were clearly dating if they were getting
married so young.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
I didn't understand it, especially when I was going through
it was really young.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
It just seemed very unfair to me. She did not
want me to go out and socialize. There was a
dance in junior high that I really worked hard on,
and I it was expected to be there by my teacher,
and my mother would not let me go.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Did your mom tell you when you said, you know,
I worked on this and I'm expected to be there.
What was your mom's explanation for why she didn't want
you to go?
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I cannot remember. I just know she said no, I
just wasn't going to go. I don't really think she
gave much of an explanation, because I know I pestered
her heir as to why. You know, she used to
say because I said so a lot. So I'm guessing
she probably said something like that.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
You're saying she didn't want me to have that many
friends either. What was the reason for that?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I think, you know, as an adult now and looking back,
I think that took away.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
My time from her. I think she kind of like
used me as like almost like a companion in a sense.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
When one of my uncles actually commented that, like when
I moved out.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Finally, finally in being what age.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Thirty, Yeah, she didn't have anybody and I wanted to
help take care of her, but I decided to move out.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So how much do you think it might be related
the fact that she was giving you these messages from
a very young age. Look, your dad's not around, it's
just me. I'm sacrificing everything for you five kids because
I'm not dating anymore. I'm just raising you and you,
Lauren the youngest, you should at least stay around and
keep me company as a thank you or take care
(11:34):
of me a little bit. How much do you think
that played in to your feelings in your teens and
twenties about the fact that if you date and have sex,
it will take you away and you'll be betraying your
mom's wishes.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Really, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I mean, my mom never came out and said, you
know you owe me this, or you know you.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Need to stay at home.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, have you felt it that?
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Yeah? I did feel it?
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, I mean I'm sure it played a role. Another
thing that came into play was my sister, who's two
years older than me. She's very pretty, and cousins and
aunts and people at school and people that knew us
would always say, my gosh, your sister is so much
prettier than you. It must be really hard to have
(12:20):
for you to have a sister that's so much prettier
than you.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
So I heard that a.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Lot, and people wanting to fix her up with people
and not me. So I just kind of got this
message that, geez, I just there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, we can hear that in your letter, that there's
a sense of feeling like you're unlovable. And what you're
describing are two things. One is you're describing what we
call a parentified child. So often this happens when a
parent dies and one of the children is expected to
(12:57):
sort of fulfill that role somehow for the remaining parent.
Your mom didn't date, so she didn't have companionship, but
she had you. She didn't want you to socialize, she
didn't want you to have friends. She didn't want you
to leave her in whatever way that might have been,
(13:18):
and in fact, you stayed there until you were thirty.
Even if she didn't say I need you to do this,
you felt her need. You worried about her loneliness, You
worried about the fact that she didn't have anybody, but
you weren't focused on the fact that you were lonely
and you didn't have anybody. And then you got this
(13:40):
other message, Well, your sister's so pretty, and so it's
sort of like a perfect storm where it makes sense
that you would have all kinds of confusion around your desires,
your need, and your love ability all at the same time.
And that's where shame comes in. It sounds like you
(14:01):
have so much shame around who you are, what your
past is. And what struck me so much was when
I asked you, why did you pick that person at
thirty two, and you describe yourself as well, I was desperate,
I wasn't really sure I trusted him, I wasn't really
sure I liked him that much. That you were sort
(14:22):
of just going for whoever would take you, as opposed
to going for who you truly wanted to be with.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, I think you're right, and I think I've done
that with almost everybody else that I've dated since then.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
What made you move out at thirty? What happened at
that point?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
There wasn't like some kind of defining event or anything.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
It was just this is it. I have to move
out on my own.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
If I ever want to have any kind of adult
life or adult relationship, I have to separate myself from
my mom because she's not doing me any favors.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
How did your mom react when you told her that
you made the decision to move out.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
She was really pissed off for a few days, and
I think the day that I moved on the next station,
she was fine fine. I think maybe my uncle talked
to her and said, you know, look, she deserves to
be on her own. And he's the one who had
commented before that you know she sees you as a
companion because she doesn't have anybody.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Lauren, when you say that you stayed with her till
you were thirty, and that doing that really cost you
in terms of your own independence, your ability to pursue
in your own life and certainly your own relationships, and
that at thirty you finally say to Hi, I need
to move on with my own life and her response
(15:42):
is to get pissed off. What that tells me is that,
even if she didn't verbilize this to you directly, the
edict of your role, Lauren is to be here with
me and keep me company and be my companion and
to prioritize my needs over yours. And I think that
(16:02):
that edict is something that you took in so strongly
that it really delayed your ability to start life until
you were thirty years old instead of starting into taiteen
or before or twenty or something like that. So there
was a huge delay there. And what's interesting or unfortunate
(16:22):
rather is that to me and I think to Laurie,
that's so clear that you were staying out of loyalty,
out of love for your mum. But what registered for
you at the time was that you were staying because
you're unlovable and because you know, you're not as pretty
as your sister, and so you're going to have a
(16:43):
hard time finding someone to love you and to want
to have sex with you. That's what really got engraved
almost into your own head, and not I'm staying out
of loyalty. I'm staying for all these noble reasons in
your head got interpreted into him staying because of shameful ones.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
If you're asking if that's correct.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
I think it probably probably is, although I didn't realize
it at the time, And yeah, I must have been
scared or like you said, probably ashamed.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
But also I was afraid of her reaction. It's like,
oh my gosh, she's going to flip out.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Why were you so afraid of her reaction? You were
afraid that what would happen if she got upset with you.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
I guess that she wouldn't talk to me for maybe
a week or so, not that she had ever done
that before. My mom wasn't want to give the silent
treatment or anything. I was afraid that she would get
mad at me. And also my mom was like bad off,
like physically, she had a lot of trouble getting around,
so she depended on me to help her.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
So even after I moved out, like I would go
over and fix.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Dinner all the time for and she never once after
that said anything about me moving out.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
How did she feel about you having the boyfriend?
Speaker 5 (17:57):
She liked him?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Okay, when we first started dating, she get mad. She
made comments to my sister that I might will just
go ahead and marry this guy because I'm just spending
all my time with him, and I assume she thought
I was having sex, or assumed I was.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
She didn't like it.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
She didn't like that you were having sex in your thirties.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah, she didn't think it was appropriate because I
wasn't married. And this came up with another guy after that,
to which I responded, well, do you want me to
be a virgin until I die?
Speaker 5 (18:28):
You know, like what if I never get married?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And her response to that was.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yes, please, Okay, you know, it's just something like you know.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
The first thing that you said, though, was she commented, well,
you're just spending all your time with him. She is
very upset when you don't spend time with her, and
you're kind of saying, well, no, she wouldn't do that. No,
She's not a person who gets upset about these things.
She is incredibly upset about any bid for independence that
(19:04):
you make. And I'm wondering when you went to Spain,
and I think it was in your twenties and that's
when you started dating. What was her reaction to that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, she did not want me to go and to
study abroad. As you can probably guess, we're shocked, shocked,
but I was set on it. I'm like, I'm going,
you know, too bad. So my aunt was like, oh,
this is a great thing. You know, I'm really happy.
You should be happy. Once it was determined that I
(19:32):
was going, but she was very upset. She was crying.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
When you described that time in Spain earlier, you said,
you know, you were in Spain, you started dating, you
kiss some guys, and then you said, but it never
went anywhere. I wonder if part of the reason it
didn't go anywhere is because there you are in Spain
and there's a part of you that says, I really
want this, I need this. I am an adult and
(19:57):
I am in my twenties and this is something I
really enjoy. And there's another part of you that said,
but you're betraying your mother. And I have a feeling
that that's why nothing ever went anywhere. That the minute
you started to experience joy, you also experienced guilt, and
(20:18):
that the guilt won every single time, so you never
got to see would this go anywhere? Do I want
to be with this person? There was this voice of
your mother and this thought about her being so upset
with you and somehow betraying her, leaving her, abandoning her,
and it wasn't until you actually moved out that you
(20:40):
were able to say, I want to have a boyfriend.
I'm going to go forward with this.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I'm sure that you're right. I think it probably did
have something to do with it.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
And also one of the things.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I will say is I just felt very ashamed of
like my body, like I have a complex with my
legs being big. So maybe that and then the guilt too.
I never thought or the fear of the reaction of
my mom, of my mom's reaction.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
You know what, Lauren, It's so much easier to acknowledge
the feelings of I'm not good enough, my legs are
too big, than to go to the other place, which
is I'm really hurting my mother.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Oh, I never thought about that, Laurie.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
To Laurie and I, this seems very very clear how
powerful the messaging of your mom was. Oh but really,
from the age of ten on to you, your role
is to be her companion, is to be there. That
messaging was so clear to.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
You, and I knew it had something to do with
my mom making me feel guilty, whether intentionally or not,
but never so deeply that I, you know, I thought
it was a lot of just self shame.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
So this is giving me a lot to think about.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I'm curious about the relationship that lasted four years. Four
years is a good chunk of time. What happened there
that the relationship didn't work out?
Speaker 5 (22:16):
We argued a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
He lied just about little stupid things, and that would
just it would make me insane, you know, like silly
stuff like oh I didn't put the tomato and the refrigerator, like, well,
there was no one else here, of course you did,
you like things like that would just drive me up
a wall. So and then he lied about bigger things too,
(22:39):
and he wasn't that smart.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So at what point did you realize you actually did
not want to be with him? It sounds like pretty
early on.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Pretty early on.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, I remember, like you like, when I was alone,
we'd be like God, you like, give me a sign,
you like, should I be with him?
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Or shouldn't?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And now I look back and say, well, if you're
asking God all the time, then there's your.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
Sign, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
You know, if there's that much doubt, then it's not
the right relationship for you.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And you stayed because you felt like this is the
best I can get.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Yeah, Yeah, when you.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Had sex with him. That was your first time. What
was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It was good.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
I really enjoyed it, like I always enjoyed having sex
with him. After the next guy that I had sex with,
I realized that I was really just having sex with
the first boyfriend and the next one it was you know,
it was really good. It was making love then having
sex at the same time. It was more emotional with
the second person.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Did some of the shame go away? Meaning you stopped
worrying about how somebody was going to see your body?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I mean I still felt a little embarrassed, but not
to the point where I wasn't not going to not
have sex.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
What happened to the guy that you felt emotionally connected to.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
I think I did something really stupid.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
We'd been dating a few weeks, and before I met him,
a girl that I worked with wanted to set me
up with a friend of hers.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
So it took a few weeks to get that rolling.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
So I had been dating this guy who I really liked,
I would say, blake fell in love with him.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
I think he had something to do that weekend or something.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
I went out with the guy who the girl that
I worked with set me up on and I told
him about it, and I probably shouldn't have and I
think it probably hurt him. And we hung out once
or twice after that, but it was very clear that
you was not going to date me after that.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
These days, are you on any dating apps? Are you
open to dating? Where are you at these days in
terms of that?
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Well, I'm open dating.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I am on Tender right now, but I don't think
it's the best website. It's a lot of people just
looking for sex. And I've talked to a few people,
but with these dating websites, you'll talk a few times
and then the conversation ends, so I haven't been too
serious about it.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Do you feel you holding back from really giving this
a go?
Speaker 5 (25:22):
Maybe maybe I could be. I guess I'm afraid to.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Get into a relationship in a sense because then people
ask you, like about your history, and it's embarrassing one
to be fifty three and single. I know children, and
you know when you mentioned that to people, male or female,
they're always like shocked. And I've had people say, oh gosh,
(25:48):
what's wrong with you? This man said this to me
this one day and I started to tear up and
I walked away, and he came back a few weeks
later and you know apologized, you know, said he was sorry.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
And then another man just said, well, you must be
a real pain in the ass if you're still single.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's a little bit like the people who said to you, Oh,
your sister's so pretty, how do you feel in her shadow?
It's really unfortunate that those things were said to you.
And when I think about when you say, well, I'm
just on Tinder, which is sort of a more of
a hookup site. Sure people find relationships on it, but
as guys, that it doesn't sound like you're trying that hard,
(26:29):
and that when you did find that guy that you
say you were falling in love with, you went on
that other date anyway and then told him about it,
knowing that it probably wouldn't go over well. So there's
this element of even though you want this very badly,
you find ways to sabotage it. And I think that
if you and your mom are both lonely, you have
(26:51):
that in common, that there's a connection between you. Even
if you're living separately, you're both these women who are
lonely and unpartnered. But if you become less lonely, then
she really is alone in her loneliness.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
So, Laurie, Actually, my mom passed away like ten years.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Ago, okay, but I think that there might have been
a time and maybe even you're still carrying this around
that there's still some sort of betrayal of her. If
you become less lonely, you lose that connection with her.
But that was something the two of you both had together,
(27:33):
was that loneliness. Nobody talked about it, but it was there.
You didn't have a parent who said, I really want
you to find connection. I really want you to have
a full life. I want you to have friends and
family and relationships and all of those things that you desire.
Sounded like your mother was really not supportive of you
(27:56):
branching out and having a social life. Who are your
friends now, in terms of do you have close friends?
Do you have friends who know your quote unquote secret?
Do you have friends who you talk to about wanting
to find a partner? Do your friends who really know you?
Speaker 5 (28:14):
I have two good friends.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I have more friends than that, but two, I guess
pretty close friends as far as I'm knowing my secret,
not completely.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
No, they don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Like I didn't date until I was very old, and
that I didn't lose my virginity until I was old.
I've just kind of like, oh, yeah, I was older
when I lost it, and no one's pressed me.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I do want to point out, Lauren, that this very
strong link in your head between if I only lost
my virginity at thirty two, it's a shameful thing. Period.
They're no extenuating circumstances is in your head, but you have.
I grew up in a household in which the messaging
(29:00):
I got was that sex was not something you did
before you got married, and I really internalized that strongly.
And my mom had some health issues and she needed
a lot of assistance and companionship, and so I stayed
with her until I was thirty out of loyalty and
the really desired to care for her because she was
(29:21):
really in need. Both of those stories are a true
and be paint you in a very positive light relationship wise. Right,
This is somebody who's loyal, This is somebody who's kind,
this is somebody who's compassionate. And those stories are truer
than the one you've had in your head all these
years of there was something wrong with me. I wasn't lovable, enough,
(29:45):
or I wasn't as pretty as my sister, and therefore
that's why I wasn't dating, because that wasn't the issue.
And I think that you really need to think strongly
about changing the story in your head to one that's
more accurate and that's much less self damaging and self
(30:06):
flagellating and self demeaning, and there is no shame in
the real story.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think if I keep
telling myself I'm not good enough or pretty or pretty enough,
that I'm just going to keep living my life based
on those thoughts. Some things that you guys were saying today,
I really never really really considered.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Them very much.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
I didn't really relate it so much to my mom
as strongly as you guys think that it is related
to her.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
In our relationship, we've.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Talked a lot about your mom. I'm curious to know
what you remember about your dad. You said you were
nine when he died. What was your relationship like with
your dad, and what do you remember about him?
Speaker 5 (30:58):
It wasn't like a real close relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
One thing I remember is my dad was angry a lot,
and my mom and dad argued a lot. Then when
I was when I was seven, they went to see
a marriage counselor.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And how do you know that?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
I think maybe my grandmom told me.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I'm not really sure because my mom really my mom
did not talk about this kind of stuff, but I
know that's what they did because I remember one time.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
I think as kids, we waited in the car for them.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
So I guess maybe one of my brothers or sisters
said it was like some kind of counseling or something.
So after they went to counseling, their relationship was so
much better, Like they held hands, they told each other
they loved the other in front of us, and they
went out on dates and we started doing more things
as a family. So then I didn't think of my
(31:51):
dad as being so angry. But that didn't last very
long because then he got sick.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So your mom must have been especially devastated that they
had just gotten their marriage on track. They were much closer,
and then your dad got sick.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
I'm sure she was devastated, But my mom just really
didn't talk about her feelings, you know, never talked about
missing him. My mom was really closed emotionally.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
How did your family handle it when he died?
Speaker 5 (32:25):
We were all really devastated.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
We were all very upset, and I was very scared
for years, Like as a teenager, I was just so
scared that my mom or grandmam was going to die
because my grandmother lived with us.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Did she live with you when your dad was alive
or did she move in afterward?
Speaker 5 (32:45):
She lived with us ever since I could remember.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
I think she probably moved in maybe when maybe before
I was born. She lived with us. I mean my grandmother.
She was a deer. She was the sweetest thing. They
broke them a little on her.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
How old were you when your grandmother died?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I was thirty, so it was so right around the
time that I moved out.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
But Lauren, do you live with your mom? Because you
didn't want it to be alone and she needed the companionship.
She had the companionship she had her mom. Why did
she need you to be another third companion.
Speaker 5 (33:26):
She might not have, I guess.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
And I wanted to be there, to just be there
for my grandmom. And she, by the way, wanted me
to date and have friends. And my grandmother would say, oh, Lauren,
I hope you find someone.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
You know, I want you to be happy. You know,
get out, you need to get out and date.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
If you go out with friends, you know you'll end
up meeting someone. So after my grandmother was in a
nursing home, then it was just me and my mom,
and I.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
Guess I felt guilty and leaving her alone, Yeah, because
now she didn't have the companionship of her mom, and
then she'd be losing you too.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
One of the things that happened sometimes in families is
that we look at our parents and we say, well,
I want something different from myself, and yet there are
so many reasons that we're not aware of that we
end up creating exactly the same thing. And I think
what you've done out of some kind of connection loyalty
(34:28):
is created something very similar, which is you are alone
and you are lonely.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I am alone. I've lived alone for twenty
three years. Now, I am lonely.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Lourene, we have some advice for you.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
What we were thinking about was this very famous quote
by Carl Jung, and it goes like this, nothing has
a stronger influenced psychologically on their environment and especially on
their children than the unlived life of the parent. And
we were thinking about that in terms of your relationship
(35:12):
with your mother, and what a profound effect that has
had on you and your life, whether you were aware
of it or not. That again, the narrative that you
had for yourself was I'm not attractive enough, I'm unlovable,
something's wrong with me. But there was a whole other
narrative which had to do with your mother's concern about
(35:36):
not having you as your companion. And we want to
free you from those shackles because your mother's not here anymore.
You're fifty three years old, you're lonely, and you know
what you want and really nothing is holding you back
at this point but you and the faulty narrative that
(35:59):
you're caring around.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
So with that in mind, we have two tasks for you.
We would like you to write a letter that you
think your grandmother would write to you, because she is
the one that saw what was going on. She's the
one that said, no, I want you to get out there,
I want you to date, I want you to have
a life. We would like you to write a letter
(36:22):
from her to you in which she acknowledges the deep
sacrifice you made by being loyal to your mom, by
being her companion. And we would like that letter to
be one in which she described to you how amazing
she thought that was that you were taking such great
care of her daughter that she could die knowing that
(36:47):
her daughter was well taken care of. But what she
wants for you now, most of all, is for you
to start taking care of you.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I don't want you to spare how amazing your grand
mother thinks and thought what you did was, how amazing
the sacrifice was, how loyal, how wonderful, how caring, how kind,
and how noble. All right, So that's the first task, okay.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And then we have sort of a two part second task.
And the first part of it is that you have
this narrative that something is damaged about you, something is
wrong with you, because you started dating and having sex
later in life. I mean want you to just entertain
the idea that you started your adulthood at thirty one.
(37:38):
That was when you left the house. You left the
house at thirty one with unprocessed grief about your father's death,
with feelings of devotion towards your mom that took precedence
over fidelity to your own needs, and also a very
(38:01):
clear sense of knowing inside of yourself that you wanted
an adult life and indeed, within a year of leaving
the house, you got a boyfriend, you started having sex,
you were in a relationship, it wasn't the right relationship.
Some of these myths that you were carrying around, like
you're not attractive enough, or you're not good enough, or
you're damaged goods because you were starting so late, were
(38:22):
really shown not to be true. But every time you
would confront that, you would sabotage something like there was
that guy that you really liked and you went on
that other date and then you told him about it.
It seems like there was still that story that was
holding you back, and we don't want that to happen anymore.
(38:43):
So we want you to manage your dating life in
a way that is not self sabotaging. Right now, you're
on a dating app called Tinder, which tends to be
more hookup oriented and maybe excuse a little bit younger,
but it's not enough, and you don't seem to be
getting very farther. So what we want you to do
(39:04):
is we want you to get on many dating apps
knowing what you know now, which is, oh, actually I
had a pretty typical course of things. If you think
about my beginning being at thirty one when I moved up,
things were pretty typical. I had some low self esteem issues,
I had some unprocessed grief, I had some blurred boundaries
(39:26):
with my mother, so to a lot of people, and
so instead of thinking of yourself as like this odd person,
we want you to really embrace how typical you are
if you look at it from a more accurate place.
And then we want you to go on these dating apps.
We want you to talk to your friends about how
you really want to be set up and how you
(39:46):
really want to meet someone, and we want you to
not have these long back and forth with people, because
we want you to get on a zoom date. And
you're going to do that by asking someone out. And
you're not going to ask out someone that you well, yeah,
maybe that's the best I can get. You're going to
ask out the person that you are most excited about,
(40:08):
and we want you not to ask yourself the question
will he like me? But the question is I want
to see whether I'm going to like him. He's the
one who's auditioning, because you forget that there's another side
to this equation, which is anybody who goes on a
date with you is going to really wonder is she
going to like me? How do I look? Am I
going to be interesting enough? Just like that guy who
(40:30):
really liked you, he was so hurt that you went
out with someone else, and it didn't occur to you
that someone could feel that way about you.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
We want you to be the one that texts the initiative.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Right, because really this is about you embracing your freedom.
You have absolutely nothing to lose here and you have
so much to gain, and so we want you to
commit to going on a zoom date with someone that
is interesting to you every two weeks, giving you two
weeks between dates, because we don't just want you to
pick someone because you have this deadline.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
So we want to hear your assessment of him, like
here's what I liked about him, Here's what I didn't.
Here's where I think you know we're a good fit.
Is where I think we're not. That's your focus. He's
applying for the job. You're the one doing the hiring.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
So show up with the attitude that basically I'm looking
to see if I like.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
You yes, And if the end of that one the
answers are yes, then you say, hey, let's do this again, okay, And.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
To get in touch with the fact that you're showing
up to that date, not as somebody who doesn't have kids,
as somebody who's child free, not as somebody who was
never married, as somebody who never had to go through
a bit of divorce that made her resentful to it
or man. In other words, you really need to understand
that you are an amazing catch.
Speaker 5 (41:55):
Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Lauren unleashed.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Great, all right, So we look forward to hearing how
it goes.
Speaker 5 (42:06):
Thank you both so much.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
I appreciate your time and your advice and your insight.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Lauric well off she goes.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Into the wild, I think she's going to do it.
I think she's going to write the letter. I think
she's going to sign up for some websites. But the
thing I'm most interested in is that if she does
go on a date, can she go with that attitude
of I'm interviewing you, of I'm checking out to see
if you're for me, not vice versa. That to me,
if she can do that, that would be the most
(42:45):
promising thing.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
I just keep thinking about the unlived life of the
parent and how much that has affected her life, and
I think it's going to take her some time to
unshackle herself. One thing I noticed when we were talking
to her was that she's very much in her head.
There wasn't a lot of emotion there. And also these
(43:08):
were things that she was considering for the very first
time that nobody had ever talked to her about the
connection between what went on with her relationship with her
mother and what goes on in her relationships with men,
and so hearing it for the first time, I think
she could hear it on an intellectual level, but I
(43:30):
don't know that it was really sinking in on an
emotional level. And so I think that writing the letter
from her grandmother maybe will help her to integrate some
of that on a deeper level and hopefully prepare her
a bit better for the dates that she goes on
so that she stops sabotaging herself. One thing we see
(43:50):
so often is people, no matter what age they are,
if they haven't worked through something, they end up sabotaging
themselves so that they create a situation where it makes
it impossible to get the very thing that they want
the most. You're listening to dear therapists for my Heart Radio.
(44:15):
We'll be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
So we heard back from Lauren. We gave her a
lot of dating related assignments. Let's see how she did.
This is Lauren.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
So I did the I guess the homework. We can say.
Speaker 7 (44:43):
I wrote the letter to myself from my grandmother's point
of view, and I guess I was kind of expecting
to have I don't know, I had some kind of reaction,
and I really didn't have much of a reaction, but
I think it kind of prompted me to start thinking
about my uncle, who was at my mom's house a
(45:04):
lot and I'm close to and I remember he commented
a lot on you know, saying that it was kind
of unfair that my mom used me as a like
her companion is the term that he used, and that
you know, he understood why I wanted to move out,
and he was happy that I did it and comforted
(45:27):
me when I did, and my mom got mad at me.
And then I remembered something that after my mom had
passed away, he actually he did thank me, and I guy,
it's funny that you said to write a letter from
my grandmother thanking me. I do remember him thanking me
for taking care of his sister. He said, even though
it's your mom, you know, I really you know, it
(45:49):
was nice that that she had you. She was lucky
to have you to to take care of her, and
that he appreciated it. Then, as far as the dating,
so I did sign up for two other dating websites.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
I've been talking to a number of guys. So right
now I'm talking to someone and he seems like a
really nice guy. We have similar interest in music. We
get excited about the same music.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
But that's about as far as we've gone. I think
we've had maybe three or four email exchanges, so I
haven't spoken with him yet over the phone or video,
but I imagine that's going to come very soon. I think
it was a good idea that you told me to
get on more serious websites so that I can kind
(46:41):
of push myself and start dating. So anyway, I wanted
to thank you guys for talking to me. It gave
me a lot to think about the first week after
I spoke with you, it was pretty emotional for me.
I was just thinking about a lot of things, and
I've decided to go into therapy.
Speaker 5 (47:03):
I start this week. I think Tuesday is my first appointment.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Hopefully it will help me with a number of the
issues that I have, so again, thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I think when people first hear Lauren's response, they might
think that grandmother thing didn't really work. But as therapists,
we see so often that what people do with a
conversation often leads them to some kind of growth or change,
even if it's not exactly as we anticipate, and I
(47:45):
think that's exactly what happened here. So she wrote the
letter to her grandmother, and she didn't have what felt
to her like an emotional experience, but I think she
did have an emotional experience because it brought to mind
an emotional connection with her uncle and how her uncle
was so supportive of her having a life and so
(48:07):
appreciative of what she had done for his sister, her mother.
And I think that's exactly what her grandmother did and
said when she was alive too.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
It's funny because we chose the grandmother because we wanted
her to see something through the eyes of a benevolent
figure in her childhood. And she was like, oh, you
know what, maybe that's not the right benevolent figure. I'm
just gonna think of my uncle who was another benevolent figure.
So she did actually the assignment, she just did it
through the different eyes than we suggested. But I think
(48:43):
she was actually really on point with the assignment.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, absolutely, And I like that she did what we
asked about, finding dating sites or apps that were more
oriented toward what she's looking for, which is a serious relationship.
And she did start conversing with people, and I hope
that she will move it more quickly to let's have
a video chat. But I think that she sounded really
(49:07):
excited about the fact that there was this one guy
with whom she had this potential connection with and no
matter what happens with him, I think it will give
her more confidence moving forward to really embrace herself as
this independent adult who is entitled to have a loving,
reciprocal relationship. And I think that even though her letter
(49:27):
was about shame, ultimately, when you really examine the old
story and you help to revise it with a more
accurate current story, you free yourself from the shame and
you can see yourself more clearly, and you can see
your situation more clearly, and that liberates you so that
(49:48):
you can move forward.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
And therapy should really help her with that, and so
it's a really good move that she not only decided
to go into therapy within a week, but actually scheduled
depployment and is beginning the process. Very glad to hear that.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out a year.
Speaker 8 (50:10):
Later, and Guy had said that he didn't think I
understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie actually
later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to confront
those painful experiences because of what it might say about them,
and I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Big Go Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia
dot com.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs, Our Interns,
Our Door, Corwin and Silver Lyfton special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.
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