December 17, 2024 • 51 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week we’re in session with Wendy, who wonders whether a childhood friendship is worth saving after some conflict. We help her to move out of her comfort zone and tendency toward avoidance by opening up some difficult conversations she’s never had before--not just with her friend, but also with her husband.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Larie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist's Advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, our fellow traveler Wonders had a menda relationship
after a childhood friend severs ties.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I don't know what kind of value I would get
out of a friendship with her right now, because it
feels like I haven't gotten any value from that friendship
for a while.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
First, a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:11):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy,
Hi Laurie. What do we have in our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, today we have a letter about a broken friendship
and goes like this, Dear therapists. I had a childhood friend, Liza,
who suddenly cut ties with me and two other longtime
friends almost a year ago. After she traveled to visit
our city for a weekend together. We had a mild
disagreement in a group text. It escalated unpredictably. The other
(01:49):
three of us did not understand how or why. Then
she stopped responding and she severed our social media connections.
None of us independently reached out to her. Maybe some
friendships should end. My father died soon thereafter, and months
after his death, I got a condolence card from her
that said she knew he and I weren't close, but
she still was sorry for my loss. I don't know
if she hesitated to send it or it took time
(02:11):
before she found out he died. Months have passed and
I haven't responded. Maybe I should let it lie, as
I have, but I keep thinking about it. I get
angry because if she actually cared, she could have asked
about his worsening health the weekend of her visit, but
she did not, even as I was late letting her
into my home because I was visiting him at the hospital.
She clearly has my address, my email, my phone number.
(02:33):
The card feels like a way to bandage herself image
rather than a way to give me comfort. At the
same time, what a year last year was on everyone?
If I read her card at face value, perhaps it's
just a good will gesture, certainly no effort for repair,
but respect for the years we did spend as friends.
What do I tell myself to let this go? Do
I send a simple, efficient thank you so that I
(02:54):
close this out, Wendy.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
That's a really complicated, painful sitution situation. The thing about
childhood friends is that either you grow in a similar
direction together in life, or you grow apart in some way. Now,
there are plenty of childhood friends who grow apart but
can still maintain their friendship. They just have to reformulate
it a little bit so it matches who they are
as adults. We change a lot in our lives and
(03:18):
you often have to reformulate what that friendship is about.
And when they're four friends, one of them might not
fit anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think people don't realize sometimes how intense friendships can be,
especially when it's a childhood friend and that person has
known you your entire life. So let's go talk to
Wendy and find out what happened and what her ambivalence
is about.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists. So
Hi Wendy, Hi there, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So, we read your letter and this sounds like a
complicated friend situation, and we wanted to understand a little
bit more about the history of your friendship with Liza.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
So e, Liza and I have been had been friends
for probably eighteen years. One of those situations where we
grew up in the same small Midwestern town, which means
under twenty five hundred people in the Midwest, so we've
known each other our whole lives, been to each other's weddings,
(04:39):
all that kind of thing. She ended up moving to
a smaller town as we got older, and I've moved
to the Twin Cities, which is a little bit more urban,
and then I don't know, I think our lives kind
of went different directions and we are where we are now,
(05:01):
which is not talking.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
To each other. How do the two other friends figure in?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So we were all childhood friends.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
From that one small town. Yes, yeah, oh well.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, in a small town, everyone knows each other. So
one of our friends came in fourth grade, she moved
to our town, and that's when we became friends with her,
and then the other three of us were basically born
and raised in our small town, and so we've kept
in touch. The one who moved in actually left town
(05:35):
a few years later, but she's maintained a friendship with
us throughout the years. And now we're in our late
twenties and all of us were still pretty close. The
three of us ended up all in the Twin Cities.
One actually lives with me now is my housemate. Two
of us are partnered. One of us is not. None
of us have kids.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Can you tell us about the nature of your friendship
with life, you know, tell us a little bit more
about what that friendship has been like up to the
point of the rupture.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Obviously, we grew up together, We went to the same
college for a little while I was in her wedding,
I had a very small we called a gorilla wedding.
We just eloped with seven of our closest friends and
she was at that So we maintained a pretty good
connection in a lot of ways, at least on the
surface as far as it goes. We were always better
(06:29):
at reaching out to Eliza to communicate than she was
to us, and it felt that way most of the time.
That we had to initiate conversations, and of course that
when you live in different states and different towns, that's
a pretty important part of the friendship. I would contact
her and ask her how she was doing, and organize
(06:51):
events if we were going to get together.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
You said, you've been friends for eighteen years and you're
in your late twenties. Do you remember when you were
going through school together or what that friendship was like
in terms of did you guys argue? Was it a
smooth friendship. Did you confight in each other? Did you
feel like she had your back? And did she feel
like you had her back?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
It was a close friendship. We were very smooth friends.
Before fourth grade, she was more in a different group
of friends, so I knew her before that, but she
became one of my close friends, and we really didn't argue,
didn't fight. She was very just very easy going and
was not argumentative, and I think she really tried to
(07:35):
avoid conflict all the time.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
When you were friends. Did she also not take initiative?
Were you also the one who had to say, hey,
let's get together, Hey let's do this? Or what? Did
she take more initiative? Was she real proactive?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No? I think that she didn't really take a lot
of initiative throughout the course of our lives. She was
always willing to go along with things and a happy participant,
but and initiate ideas. I think this has been a
long time coming in terms of not engaging a lot.
(08:10):
And this is hard because, of course, it's not just
when we've been friends. For this line, it doesn't feel
like the relationship is just me and her, it's me
and her and our other mutual friends. Because we've been
a group of friends for so long, so for a
number of years since they graduated college. If I reached out,
(08:31):
she would respond to me and ask questions and engage
in a conversation. If our other friend reached out, she
would often just ignore the text. But if we got together.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
She wasn't as close with the other two.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
It always seemed like she was closer to the person
who she ignored than to me. But I think that
I'm the more persistent one, so she would respond to
me because I would call her out on it if
she didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Usually in a friend group, there are people who are
closer than other people in the group, So how would
you characterize those relationships within the group? Who was closest
with whom?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So me and my housemate have definitely always been the closest.
Beyond that, it always felt like Liza was a little
bit closer with my housemate than to me. They both
attended the same college until they graduated. They engaged in
the same sports activities, so they have those types of
bonding experiences. So it felt like Liza was closer to her,
(09:40):
but she would be more communicative with me.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
She was close. It felt like she was closer to
her just because they saw each other more or because
they actually had more emotional intimacy.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's a good question. Maybe I did have more emotional
intimacy with her, and then they had more time together.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
I want to know what do you like about Liza?
So the friendship persisted for a long time, you made
a lot of effort to stay in touch with her.
Tell me what you like about her.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I like sharing laughter with her. I like sharing old jokes.
The comfort of really long friendship is really nice and special,
and I think there is an intimacy that you develop
over time that's certainly hard to achieve quickly.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
But again, my question is what do you like about her?
What qualities do you like?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
And I don't know what answer I have to that anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
You must have enjoyed something about her, because there are
lots of people you can talk about your childhood with,
but you chose her. So what qualities did you like
about her before this happened?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I liked her goofyinus and your sense of humor. I
liked her her comebacks. She makes the most amazing facial
expressions that they're all just comical, and she has no idea.
She's making them, and they're always ridiculous and it just
fills your heart with joy.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Did you think she was kind? Did you think that
she had your back? Did you think she cared about you?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah? I did think that she cared about us, and
I thought she was loyal and trustworthy and would be
there for me when I needed her.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I would like to hear about the rupture, about what happened.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
So she came to visit our city and she stayed
with me at our house, which we just got last year,
so it was her first time seeing the place, hanging
out with us here, and she was in town for work,
so she came and stayed through the weekend. And as
she was driving home that weekend, she texted something that
(12:02):
was like a fat joke, and I responded that I
didn't like those kind of jokes, and she told me
to calm down, which is, in my personal experience, the
best way to make me not calm down, because I
felt like I was already calm, as you always do
when you get told that, and then things just blew up.
(12:28):
She said that we had different senses of humors and
different values, and that she didn't feel like she could
say anything to us and not to contact her again.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Were you surprised by the intensity of her reaction asking
you never to contact her again?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yes, yes, we were all surprised.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You are the two friends they were bystanders in this
or did they actually participate in that conversation?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It was in a group chat between the four of us,
and one of them participated a little bit and said
she didn't understand the reaction, and the other person remained silent.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Was the housemate the person who participated a little bit
or who remained silent.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
The housemate was the one who participated.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So was that zero to sixty and two seconds? So
whether a couple of stages of build up in between,
in between I don't like those kinds of jokes and
the never duck on my doorstep again? Was there a
couple of steps?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
It was pretty rapid.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
It was.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
I thought I was trying to politely say I don't
like those kinds of jokes, and I'm sure there's two
sides to how that can be interpreted, but it went
from me saying that to I want nothing to do
with you within minutes.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Is there some history around body image with Liza that
you're aware of that made her have that reaction in
that way.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So throughout the weekend when we were together, she made
some comments about and her body, and I didn't say anything.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
What kinds of comments, like she'd be eating a piece
of candy and then say something self denigrating, and I
didn't know how to respond and didn't like hearing her
talk about herself that way.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So she'd say something like, Oh, I shouldn't be eating
this because I'm so fat.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, things like that. And she's always liked to snack,
and she's had two kids, and she's had body issues
because she was in the military, and so she had
to maintain a certain standard and struggled with that at times.
So I know that that has been a thing for her.
(14:44):
Amongst our group, I feel like none of us ever
talk about our bodies and negative ways to each other.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Can we get a little more detail on what happened
between Hey, I don't like those kinds of jokes and
calmed down and then never talk to me again.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I don't think there really was much more than that.
There was just a rapid evolution to we don't think
the same way, we don't have the same humor or
values or body issues. And she didn't feel safe talking
to us about things because she didn't want to be
(15:27):
in arguments.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So I mean it sounded that she had been holding
a lot in and that accumulating a lot of a
grievances feelings. Had she voiced any of those concerns previously?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
No, No, we just had two and a half days
together with no arguments.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Have you guys ever had an argument?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, tell us about that?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Oh, oh gosh. Well, the last argument I can think
of is me asking how her relationship was with her husband,
and her turning around and asking me how mine was.
We're so far away from her. I guess I was
trying to check in to see if they were okay.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Did you have reason to believe that things were not
okay based off.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Of them not having pictures together on social media when
she used to do that kind of thing and have
pictures of them together on social media, and then not
talking about him much in conversations with us, just being
hush about it.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Did you just say how are things going with your husband?
She didn't answer and said, how are things going with
your husband? Where's the argument? Help us flush that out
a little bit?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I think that I asked, and then she was insulted
that I asked how things were going.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I'm sorry, and just be clear that was the argument
because I'm from New York. I just want to be clear.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Uh, yes, in the Midwest. This is how we argue.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I had the same question because I want my money back.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I get it was the show.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
That's the show. Yeah, that's that's the last time I
could think of that. We got angry at each other
before this.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Wait, how so here's our question because we because this
is this is like you're putting us in in a
different frame of mind about what an argument is. So
you said, how are things going with your husband? And
she said how are things going with yours? And then
you guys didn't talk anymore. But that was the argument,
and you both assumed that the other person was offended
(17:58):
by the question.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
No, it was. There was heated things between those two flagship.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Oh will help us, Okay, So that's what we'd like
to know, So you can you take us through the
dialogue a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
It was in text. I don't think I have the
text anymore. I think the flavor was basically, none of
your damn business, and who are you to ask? And
what about you? How are things for you. How am
I supposed to know any of that stuff?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And how did you respond to that? One example is
somebody might say, you know, oh, I'm really sorry. I
didn't mean to upset you. I just want to hear
what's going on with you? And other question is what's
going on here? I'm really confused about why you're so upset?
What was your response?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Probably some blend of those things, with a little bit
of a of anger back. Things are fine here, and
there's people who can see that things are fine here.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So defensiveness like, you're defending your marriage, but you're not
talking about what's happening between you and Lizay neither of
you is.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Have you and Isa ever talked about you and Liza?
If we have, I don't know when it would have been,
So that's a no.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So you defended your marriage and then what happened The
texting just stopped and you picked up another time and
you never spoke of it again, or you somehow repaired
that what happened exactly?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
She got defensive, I got defensive back. I don't remember
if I tried to justify to her why I asked
in the first place. I think that I probably tried
to communicate that a little bit, but certainly not entirely,
because I think some of why I asked was definitely
are other friendships reading between the lines and not sure
(19:55):
how she was doing, And I didn't fully tell her that.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
What got lost there is I care about you.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, well, I think that what happens is and what
this happens so much that you clearly asked that out
of concern. But in text, we do not have tonality,
and so what sounds very concerned when you're saying how's
your marriage comes across as how's your marriage? You know,
can be read that way certainly, and it's one of
(20:25):
those where you intended something one way, she read it
very much differently, and she read it differently because she
was already feeling some kind of tension distance and that
was how long ago this won the marriage.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Argument, Probably last year sometime.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So things were brewing already. She was already feeling some
kind of distance.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And some kind of judgment. You did not intend this,
but I think in both comments about the marriage, she
interpreted that as a judgment. And when you said I
don't find those kind of jokes funny, I think she
interpreted that as a judgment as well, and they both
seem to touch on areas that she's sensitive about. Maybe
she is sensitive about her marriage, and maybe she is
(21:04):
sensitive as you said with the comments she made over
the weekend about body.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Image, Wendy, and she might be sensitive about one other thing.
You both came from this very small town with twenty
five hundred people, and then she goes to an actually
smaller town and you will go to the big city.
And I think that that's symbolic, probably for her more
than for you, in that she might have felt that
you moved up and on in a way and she
(21:29):
did not, and that you were now people of the
big city and she was not. And maybe you are
mo sophisticated, maybe you know something and she was not,
but she clearly felt a part.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it's hard because we definitely want different things
in that way. She wanted to stay in a smaller town.
So we've known for a long time that we were
moving in different directions in that kind of a way.
But the dramatic rupture was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Guy asked the question, do you and Liza ever talk
about you and Liza? What about with your housemate? Do
you ever have conversations that are a little bit more
intimate than the kinds of conversations you've had with Liza. Yeah, yeah,
tell us about those. Can you give us some examples
with the kinds of conversations you've had that have been
a little bit more intimate about the two of you.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
A lot of our conversations about our own relationship are
when we're doing well and that we're grateful to have
the friendship that we have.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
So conflict resolution is not something that you've really ever
done as friends, not much.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Have you ever had an argument with your husband where
you had to do some repair with each other?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Can you tell us about how those go? Give us
one example of an argument where it was about the
two of you, one of you did something that upset
the other person.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Well, I think what we're coming to here is that
I also avoid conflict and things just take time and
die off because because we usually sleep on it.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Can you give us an example of something that happened
where you did come back and talk about it and
what that conversation was like. Because most people have arguments
with their spouse rights all kinds like they sound so
silly when you try to recount them. You know, it's
like we had a fight over this one dish, right,
those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
So in the year twenty twenty, our favorite year ever. Right,
we were not sure we were going to make it
through this, and it was something that I got told
to me.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
You mean that your husband told you that.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, he said, I'm not sure I want us, I'm
not sure I want this, And he was just at
a point where he wasn't sure about anything. And that's
hard because in some ways it's definitely about our relationship,
but it was also about everything. When this first happened,
we at our housemate, and we also had someone that
(24:02):
we were just letting stay with us because we had
a shelter and place order in our state and so
they didn't want to be alone an apartment, so they
were hanging out with us. So there was four of
us in this house. And so, like right away, it
was about trying to find moments where he could tolerate
being in the same space with me and talking about
(24:24):
it at all. And like he didn't have anything.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Because he's he's afraid of talking about these things too. Yeah,
when you say he didn't have anything to say, you
mean you said, tell me what's not working for you?
Were you able to say that to him?
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And he said, he said that things just weren't how
he imagined they were going to be.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Did you get into detail with him about what some
of the specifics were that weren't working? Not much, No,
not really, So you don't today still know what that
was that wasn't working for him?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And what are things with him today?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
We seem good right now? Yeah, this is where the
podcast takes a whole different direction.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Now, it's actually so much the same direction.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Right That's why we're asking about it.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I ended up getting called up to do some work
that I was limited in how much time I could
be home, and so we had a little bit of
separation just via that. But I kept trying to talk
to him, and he tried to be kind and responding.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
How did you try to keep talking to him and
how did he respond?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I tried to stay open and vulnerable and make it
clear that I still wanted a relationship and he wasn't
sure and kept not being sure, but also said he
didn't want to hurt me, He didn't want me to suffer,
he didn't want me to feel pain. A lot of
that just like texting and communication as I was working
(25:59):
and doing other things, and then when I was able
to be here just one on one time with him,
asking try and ask him if he still wanted us,
if I could try to, you know, keep our relationship,
and that I would like to keep him.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
When did did you actually ever ask him? Tell me
what it is that you're not happy with? Tell me
what you think we should work on? Did you ever
ask him for any specifics or did you just ask
do you want us?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
I tried to ask what was wrong?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
And what did he say was wrong?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I think his response was mostly that just nothing felt right.
Things just weren't satisfying and weren't what he hoped things
would be and hadn't been for about six months in
terms of everything in.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Life, but specifically to your marriage. What was different for him?
What was he missing?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Did you ask?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yes, and he said what.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
He just said? He this wasn't what he thought it
would be.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And when you said, what do you mean by that?
Can you tell me more specifically what is not working
for you?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
He didn't have anything more to say.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So he was silent, and then you two would just
kind of stare at each other.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
What we were asking is how many rounds of follow
up did you actually do? Because I know that with
every round it's very painful the answer that you're getting,
And I'm wondering if that shuts you down or you
then inquire further and say, what do you mean everything?
Give me one example? Okay, so how long six months?
What's changed for you over six months? How much follow
(27:43):
up inquiry do you do? Not?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Much more than what you did just now? As an example, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Okay, was the exchange with Liza around the marriages? Before?
During or after this? Before?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Okay? When this was going on, did you confide in
your housemate who was living there with you that this
was going on? Or did you confide in Liza? Did
you confight in anybody?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I assume that the housemate could put some things together,
but she didn't say anything and was just respectful and
was just a warm presence and made sure that I
felt valued.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
In your letter, you seeing a little torn about whether
to I think you said let go of Liza. Can
you tell us a little bit more about that ambivalence?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
So some of it is surrendering an intimate, long friendship,
although I don't know how intimate of a friendship we've
been for a while really, And some of it is
because I don't think there's a lot of other people
in her life, so I worry about her in terms
of not having people that she can be close with.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
These are reasons that the loss of the friendship might
affect her. But I'm wondering about how the loss of
the friendship has affected you and how you imagine it
might affect you in the future.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
I mean, I have one last person that I can
call at two am if something happens.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Have you ever called her at two am?
Speaker 5 (29:20):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
I've been lucky to not need that.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well, so you say you've been lucky to not need
that your marriage almost imploded. That feels like a pretty
big thing. And yet you didn't call her at two
am or anyone, even your housemate. And then another big
thing that you wrote in your letter was that your
father died. Yeah, how did you reach out to people?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Then?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I talked to my partner, and I talked to my
housemate or our friends in our city. I reached out
to a lot of them via text to let them
know what was going on, and I had some good
conversations with a couple of those people.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
What was the conversation with your housemaid.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
My housemate did not like my dad, so that conversation
was a lot about the torn feeling that comes with
losing someone that you have a complicated relationship with, and
I was able to have that conversation with her and
with my partner.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I'm glad that you were able to really talk about that.
And I think what Guy was getting at earlier is
that in this conversation it might have been easier because
it wasn't about you and your housemate. It was about
you and your complicated feelings about losing your father when
you had a difficult relationship. But I think what's hardest
for anybody to talk about is what's happening between the
(30:45):
two of us, and it's hard for you to do
that with your husband. To this day. You're not really
clear about why he wanted to end your marriage, and
I don't think the two of you have really come
to any place of emotional intimacy around that. I don't
know how solid or stable you feel in the relationship.
I don't know that you've had a lot of practice
(31:06):
doing that growing up, and certainly with even this core
group of friends that you've known since elementary and high school.
And I think that's the piece that's missing here.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
There's one thing we know about relationships, and that is
that for them to survive and thrive, and this is
true of romantic relationships, but really it's true of most
friendships as well, you have to be able to develop
skills with conflict resolution. And conflict resolution means that you
(31:38):
are able to talk about the conflict that you're having
and result it and figure it out. And that starts
with asking each other questions so that you understand better
what the other person is upset about or how they
feel about things. And once you have a good understanding
each of you of how the other person feels and why,
then you start figuring out what you can do about it,
whether it's an apology or compromise, whatever that is. And
(32:02):
that's a skill set I just don't think that you've
developed very much. And I think it's it's costing you
a little bit in moments where you could really use it,
like with your husband. Certainly that was a moment and
still is in which you need to use it, and
certainly that was the case with Liza. And since you
have long lasting friendships. It's going to be the case
(32:23):
with anyone. Can you tell me a little bit, why
is that something that you've really not practiced much.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense,
and it's unfortunate because it's a lot you know, it's
a lot easier trying to win or lose arguments rather
than engage in talking about the difficulties in your own
relationships with them.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
When you were growing up, you said you had a
difficult relationship with your father. What did conflict look like
in your family?
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Isolating from each other mostly.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So nobody really talked about what happened. It was kind
of like what you've done with your husband a little
bit and what you tend to do. Yeah, you know,
guys using this term conflict resolution, which I think for
a lot of people sounds like something that happens in
negotiations and relationships are in a way, negotiations and another
(33:22):
way to put it though, is rupture and repair. So
there's a rupture between two people in a relationship and
a friendship, and then how do you repair it. So
a lot of people say, oh, we never argue, we
have a great relationship, and we always say that's odd
because in general, people do have disagreements if they are
(33:45):
really emotionally intimate with each other. No two people are
going to get through a real rich relationship and not
have disagreements at some point or another. And so the
issue isn't whether you have the ruptures. The issue is
how do you repair them? And it sounds to us
like you don't have a lot of practice repairing them,
(34:06):
And no matter what you decide to do with this
relationship with Eliza, that's going to be a skill that's
going to come in very handy for you. I think
it would help for us to just get a little
more clear on one issue, which is you kind of
have made it sound like you are done with the
relationship and you're trying to let go. And I think
what we're curious about is how did you come to
that conclusion as opposed to feeling like there might be
(34:29):
some value in continuing this friendship, but maybe in a
way that's more nourishing for both of us.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
So one of the things I keep going back to
in my mind is there's this moment where she was
visiting and she was really surprised. She says, she said
to me that she just didn't understand. She didn't understand
my partner because he's into cooking and sports. She thought
(34:56):
that these were incompatible features, that he couldn't be someone
who is into these different things. It hurt me because
it seemed like she couldn't see his humanity beyond a
trope that he couldn't be more than one thing. And
I have a hard time valuing someone who thinks that
(35:16):
people can only be one thing.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
See, there are so many assumptions going on here, because
you think that she meant your partner's weird, right, that
there's something wrong with him, Whereas it could be that
there was even some envy there. You know, then maybe
it didn't come out that way. Maybe it came out
because of her envy. It came out as an insult,
(35:39):
you know, in tone. But it might be that maybe
she's envious of that that well, you have a partner
who you know watches football and cooks, but you just
don't know because the two of you didn't talk about it.
You didn't say, oh wait, what do you mean? It
was just ouch, I'm hurt and I'm going to file
(35:59):
that went away.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, it sounds like from what you're saying that Lisa
hasn't added a lot of value in your life, and
that the thing that's making you question whether you should
let her go is your concern for her, but not
that you're going to miss much of Lisa? Is that
correct or? And I'm asking because this is given the
(36:24):
reality up until now or of you not doing any
repair or conflict resolution. But if that was something that
you will say had a little bit of practice in,
does that open possibilities with Liza or not?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Really, I don't know what kind of value I would
get out of a friendship with her right now, because
it feels like I haven't gotten any value from that
friendship for a while.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
So I was hearing something a little bit different. I
was hearing that there were things that you would miss
about this friendship. And maybe it's a piece of your childhood.
Maybe it's just that she's entertaining and she makes you laugh.
Maybe it's that just she knows you in a way
that a lot of people don't know you. And it
sounds like you're trying to be very binary in how
you define this friendship, like Okay, we're not going to
(37:12):
be friends, or we're going to be friends. But there's
a lot in the we're going to be friends in
terms of what that range looks like, and your idea is, well,
she cut us off, so I'm just gonna cut her
out too. But I can't seem to cut her out
because I still think about her. And she sent me
(37:33):
that note after my father died, And you have this
fantasy that if you respond to that note, that you
will have and you use the word in your letter closure,
some kind of closure to the friendship. And I'm looking
at your face and I'm seeing that there's some kind
of pain around that. So I'm not sure that you
know yet what you want. And so that's why I
(37:55):
really want you to try to look at this not
as how do I get closure on this friendship, but
how do I get more information about whether I want
to not engage in this friendship anymore. I don't think
you're there yet. Does that sound right?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah? That does sound right, okay, Wendy. So we have
two pieces of advice for you. The first is about Liza.
We would like you to contact her so that you
get more information about what's going on if she chooses
to respond, and we think the best way for you
to do that is to say to her something like Lisa,
(38:36):
I thank you for your card. The reason it's taken
me a while to respond is because I've been thinking
about our friendship, and I realized that there was a
lot brewing before our fight last year, and that there
was a lot that was troubling you in the friendship.
And I never asked to hear what that was, or
(38:56):
what was troubling you or why you aren't feeling good
in the friendship. I should have, And I realize I'm
not good at doing that, but I want to get
better at doing that, And so I'd love to have
a conversation with you, if you're willing a video conversation,
so we can talk a little bit about what happened
and what this friendship means to us after so many years,
and how you feel. I just love to hear a
(39:18):
little bit more about what was going on for you.
Our feeling is that she's probably felt judged by you
and the other two friends. You should anticipate that if
she agrees to have the conversation, that those are the
kinds of things she might say, in which case, really
(39:38):
all you need to do is say, Okay, I understand,
tell me a little bit more. How you felt and oh, okay,
I understand, And what you're trying to do there is
really just try and see if talking about things like
that with her will open things up between the two
of you so you can make a decision.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
And really the goal of the conversation, no matter what
what happens with her, is for you to get practice
having these kinds of conversations. And the reason that you're
going to be asking about her side of things and
how she feels is because in order for you to
be understood, first, you have to understand the other person.
So you might have a lot of responses in your
(40:17):
head like oh, I didn't mean that, or that was
not what I said, or you have that wrong. This
is not the time to bring that up. The whole
task here is to listen to what she has to
say so that you understand more about this person that
you have this long history with. And we also want
to say that at the end of that call, it's
(40:38):
not as though you're going to determine yes, I want
to be friends with her, No, I don't want to
be friends with her. There's a lot of gray in there,
and you see how things evolve from there. Does it
open something up for the two of you. Can you
continue to have conversations like this? Can she eventually hear
a little bit about how you've been feeling. So that's
just a place to start.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
One thing, I know this is going to seem very
scary to you to do, because these are uncomfortable conversations
for somebody who has in practice. The scary part is
usually what if they say this? What if they say that?
What do I say? And we're taking away that part
for you because all you need to say, no matter
what she says, is Okay, I understand, and if you don't,
you ask questions until you do. But you actually don't
have to defend, explain, justify, I rationalize, You meediately just
(41:21):
have to listen and understand. And so there's the difficult
part has been taken away a bit, so it should
be a little less scary.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's a welcoming of what she says. You don't have
to agree with it factually, but it's the gratitude of
thank you for sharing this with me. I'm so glad
we can talk.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Like this because it's going to be hard for her
to share.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
She's going to need a lot of reinforcement of that
You're really grateful that she feels comfortable enough to share
this with you, even if she doesn't present it in
the most optimal way. So that's number one, and then
number two is we'd like you to do something similar
with your husband. We would like you to say to him, listen,
I know that things seem better between us, and I
(42:00):
also know that you have been very careful not to
hurt me. But I've been thinking about this and the
not knowing hurts me more than whatever you might have
to say about how you're really feeling. And so I'd
like us to be able to have a conversation where
I can really understand much more specifically what was going
(42:24):
on might still be going on, And we want to
give you some buckets that might help. Because he tends
to kind of vague out right, you can say, how
are you feeling about the ways that we communicate with
each other? How are you feeling about the closeness between us,
How are you feeling about the ways we have fun
with each other? How are you feeling about things that
(42:45):
go on with our families. How are you feeling about
the way we handle our jobs and the way we
handle things around the house.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
How are you feeling about our roommates.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
How are you feeling about things that we might do
in the future, like have children, How are you feeling
about our sex life, how are you feeling about yourself?
How are things going with you? And so when he
says something very vague in the answer to these questions,
you follow up with tell me more, just those three words,
(43:15):
tell me more. I want to understand better, or what
do you mean by that? Or what specifically can you
give me an example and keep reassuring him during the conversation.
This is so helpful for me. I know you don't
want to hurt me, and things that you might say
might be hard for me to hear, but they're not
as hard as not having this conversation.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Okay, well, I mean that definitely feels like an easier
proposition for the relationship that has already in some ways ended,
and scarier for the one that's ongoing.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, that makes sense, But I think it's going to
be really good for you either way, no matter what
happened in either of these conversations. You didn't get this
growing up, and you're not getting it in any of
your other relationships. It sounds like or any of the
ones you've mentioned.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Today you were having your turn on the headlights because
you're navigating in the dark, and this will give you
a light and you'll at least know what you need
to navigate around. Okay, Wendy, we know this is going
to be scary, but we also really know that you
can do it.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
You know, Wendy's story just reminds me that if you
learn something about yourself that you're doing in one relationship
in your life, check if you're doing it in any
of the others, because you probably are.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, And that's why I think this is going to
be really effective for her is that it's opening up
this possibility for her about how to handle rupture and repair.
There are so many people out there like Wendy who
grew up in houses where they did not get good
models of what it means to resolve conflict, and that's
what we're really trying to help her with here.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
IM really curious to see how she does.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
You're listening to Dear Therapist for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
So we heard from Wendy and we gave her a
dual task of speaking up about the relationship and processing
something with someone, maybe for the first time in her life,
both with her friend and with her husband, and I
think those were important conversations for her to have. Let's
hear if she had them.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Lauren Guy, thank you for your time and advice. I
was able to talk to e Liza on the phone.
I was really surprised with how receptive she was to
speak with me, and she was really willing to engage
and discuss her feelings about things. It was a difficult
(46:07):
conversation for me to initiate, but it really wasn't hard
once I heard her voice again and she heard mine
for us to talk and be open with each other.
I heard some things that were difficult to hear, but
I felt incredibly capable, both during the conversation and afterwards
(46:28):
to have ongoing conversations with her and for us to
decide together what the nature of our friendship might be
in the future. The conversation with my husband took a
while to actually complete. We danced around it for a while,
and ultimately I got some more specific answers, but it
(46:50):
feels like something we'll have to repeat multiple times before
we really communicate well together. That said, I'm not afraid
of any shading that conversation again, and I feel a
lot less afraid of what's being left unsaid by probing
a little bit more and just listening to one another.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
The thing about having conversations like this for the very
first time is that it really depends on who you're
having them with, because it sounds like maybe Liza wasn't
able earlier to be more direct about how she was feeling,
but she was incredibly receptive, and that was the first
thing that Wendy said. She was receptive, She wanted to
(47:39):
have the conversation, she participated in the conversation, and they
were both really willing to be open with each other.
I think the problem with the conversation with her husband
is that he is not receptive, so she has no
practice doing this. She has never in her life had
practice having a conversation with somebody about that relationship. So
(48:02):
she may have been vulnerable in other ways, but it
wasn't about what's going on between you and me right now.
That is a conversation she's never had. Liza was open
to that. Her husband, we suspected from our earlier conversation,
was probably not going to be very open to that.
And so I think that just by virtue of her
coming to him and saying, I want to talk about this,
(48:25):
that it will take some time, but that she's opened
a door there, just a little bit that had been
slammed shut between them.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I'm grateful for Lisa because Liza gave her and us
the opening to say, you need to practice having these
conversations because really you need to have them with your husband.
That seemed much more urgent and important than with Liza.
I mean, Lisa's a friend, and I think that's important,
but there were issues going on with a husband that
really needed to be addressed. I'm hoping she continues this
(48:57):
dialogue with Liza. It will help her to then continue
having the dialogue with her husband. If she can practice
on Liza, who's a better responder, she can then bring
that perhaps to conversations with her husband and over time,
get them to be more open with one another. Because
clearly that was sounded like it was a bit of
teeth pulling.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, and I hope that Liza not only models for
her how can I have these conversations with my husband?
But I also hope that Liza can be a support
for her and maybe encourage her to be more open
with her husband, to really give her the moral support,
give her the you know the things that friends can
do to kind of hold you up when you're doing
(49:38):
something very difficult.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Well, that would really be a nice switch to rough right,
because their last fight was about relationships with husbands and
who's had problems. And the suspicion was that both did.
My measure of whether a conversation was successful, the minimum
bar really is do you feel an easing after the
conversation or do you feel crease of tension? And it
(50:01):
sounds like in both those conversations that were somewhat of
an easy so they were both successful, even the one
with her husband, because she did sound like she felt
a little bit better. She said she's less afraid of
the unsaid things. So to me, that's an indication it
was perhaps as successful as a first effort might be.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
That's something I really want people listening to this to understand,
is that the opening conversation is the beginning of something.
It's setting the stage for something, it's planting the seeds.
And I like your way guy of measuring the success
of a conversation, because I think in both instances, these
conversations were a success.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Next week, a young man seeks all counsel on whether
to try to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (50:47):
Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I
know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and
you know I told her I don't have to have
a drink again.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
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Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, Bigosmooth,
email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
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are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Larie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist's Advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, our fellow traveler Wonders had a menda relationship
after a childhood friend severs ties.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I don't know what kind of value I would get
out of a friendship with her right now, because it
feels like I haven't gotten any value from that friendship
for a while.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
First, a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:11):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy,
Hi Laurie. What do we have in our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, today we have a letter about a broken friendship
and goes like this, Dear therapists. I had a childhood friend, Liza,
who suddenly cut ties with me and two other longtime
friends almost a year ago. After she traveled to visit
our city for a weekend together. We had a mild
disagreement in a group text. It escalated unpredictably. The other
(01:49):
three of us did not understand how or why. Then
she stopped responding and she severed our social media connections.
None of us independently reached out to her. Maybe some
friendships should end. My father died soon thereafter, and months
after his death, I got a condolence card from her
that said she knew he and I weren't close, but
she still was sorry for my loss. I don't know
if she hesitated to send it or it took time
(02:11):
before she found out he died. Months have passed and
I haven't responded. Maybe I should let it lie, as
I have, but I keep thinking about it. I get
angry because if she actually cared, she could have asked
about his worsening health the weekend of her visit, but
she did not, even as I was late letting her
into my home because I was visiting him at the hospital.
She clearly has my address, my email, my phone number.
(02:33):
The card feels like a way to bandage herself image
rather than a way to give me comfort. At the
same time, what a year last year was on everyone?
If I read her card at face value, perhaps it's
just a good will gesture, certainly no effort for repair,
but respect for the years we did spend as friends.
What do I tell myself to let this go? Do
I send a simple, efficient thank you so that I
(02:54):
close this out, Wendy.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
That's a really complicated, painful sitution situation. The thing about
childhood friends is that either you grow in a similar
direction together in life, or you grow apart in some way. Now,
there are plenty of childhood friends who grow apart but
can still maintain their friendship. They just have to reformulate
it a little bit so it matches who they are
as adults. We change a lot in our lives and
(03:18):
you often have to reformulate what that friendship is about.
And when they're four friends, one of them might not
fit anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think people don't realize sometimes how intense friendships can be,
especially when it's a childhood friend and that person has
known you your entire life. So let's go talk to
Wendy and find out what happened and what her ambivalence
is about.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists. So
Hi Wendy, Hi there, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So, we read your letter and this sounds like a
complicated friend situation, and we wanted to understand a little
bit more about the history of your friendship with Liza.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
So e, Liza and I have been had been friends
for probably eighteen years. One of those situations where we
grew up in the same small Midwestern town, which means
under twenty five hundred people in the Midwest, so we've
known each other our whole lives, been to each other's weddings,
(04:39):
all that kind of thing. She ended up moving to
a smaller town as we got older, and I've moved
to the Twin Cities, which is a little bit more urban,
and then I don't know, I think our lives kind
of went different directions and we are where we are now,
(05:01):
which is not talking.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
To each other. How do the two other friends figure in?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So we were all childhood friends.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
From that one small town. Yes, yeah, oh well.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, in a small town, everyone knows each other. So
one of our friends came in fourth grade, she moved
to our town, and that's when we became friends with her,
and then the other three of us were basically born
and raised in our small town, and so we've kept
in touch. The one who moved in actually left town
(05:35):
a few years later, but she's maintained a friendship with
us throughout the years. And now we're in our late
twenties and all of us were still pretty close. The
three of us ended up all in the Twin Cities.
One actually lives with me now is my housemate. Two
of us are partnered. One of us is not. None
of us have kids.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Can you tell us about the nature of your friendship
with life, you know, tell us a little bit more
about what that friendship has been like up to the
point of the rupture.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Obviously, we grew up together, We went to the same
college for a little while I was in her wedding,
I had a very small we called a gorilla wedding.
We just eloped with seven of our closest friends and
she was at that So we maintained a pretty good
connection in a lot of ways, at least on the
surface as far as it goes. We were always better
(06:29):
at reaching out to Eliza to communicate than she was
to us, and it felt that way most of the time.
That we had to initiate conversations, and of course that
when you live in different states and different towns, that's
a pretty important part of the friendship. I would contact
her and ask her how she was doing, and organize
(06:51):
events if we were going to get together.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
You said, you've been friends for eighteen years and you're
in your late twenties. Do you remember when you were
going through school together or what that friendship was like
in terms of did you guys argue? Was it a
smooth friendship. Did you confight in each other? Did you
feel like she had your back? And did she feel
like you had her back?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
It was a close friendship. We were very smooth friends.
Before fourth grade, she was more in a different group
of friends, so I knew her before that, but she
became one of my close friends, and we really didn't argue,
didn't fight. She was very just very easy going and
was not argumentative, and I think she really tried to
(07:35):
avoid conflict all the time.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
When you were friends. Did she also not take initiative?
Were you also the one who had to say, hey,
let's get together, Hey let's do this? Or what? Did
she take more initiative? Was she real proactive?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No? I think that she didn't really take a lot
of initiative throughout the course of our lives. She was
always willing to go along with things and a happy participant,
but and initiate ideas. I think this has been a
long time coming in terms of not engaging a lot.
(08:10):
And this is hard because, of course, it's not just
when we've been friends. For this line, it doesn't feel
like the relationship is just me and her, it's me
and her and our other mutual friends. Because we've been
a group of friends for so long, so for a
number of years since they graduated college. If I reached out,
(08:31):
she would respond to me and ask questions and engage
in a conversation. If our other friend reached out, she
would often just ignore the text. But if we got together.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
She wasn't as close with the other two.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
It always seemed like she was closer to the person
who she ignored than to me. But I think that
I'm the more persistent one, so she would respond to
me because I would call her out on it if
she didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Usually in a friend group, there are people who are
closer than other people in the group, So how would
you characterize those relationships within the group? Who was closest
with whom?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So me and my housemate have definitely always been the closest.
Beyond that, it always felt like Liza was a little
bit closer with my housemate than to me. They both
attended the same college until they graduated. They engaged in
the same sports activities, so they have those types of
bonding experiences. So it felt like Liza was closer to her,
(09:40):
but she would be more communicative with me.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
She was close. It felt like she was closer to
her just because they saw each other more or because
they actually had more emotional intimacy.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's a good question. Maybe I did have more emotional
intimacy with her, and then they had more time together.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
I want to know what do you like about Liza?
So the friendship persisted for a long time, you made
a lot of effort to stay in touch with her.
Tell me what you like about her.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I like sharing laughter with her. I like sharing old jokes.
The comfort of really long friendship is really nice and special,
and I think there is an intimacy that you develop
over time that's certainly hard to achieve quickly.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
But again, my question is what do you like about her?
What qualities do you like?
Speaker 3 (10:37):
And I don't know what answer I have to that anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
You must have enjoyed something about her, because there are
lots of people you can talk about your childhood with,
but you chose her. So what qualities did you like
about her before this happened?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I liked her goofyinus and your sense of humor. I
liked her her comebacks. She makes the most amazing facial
expressions that they're all just comical, and she has no idea.
She's making them, and they're always ridiculous and it just
fills your heart with joy.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Did you think she was kind? Did you think that
she had your back? Did you think she cared about you?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah? I did think that she cared about us, and
I thought she was loyal and trustworthy and would be
there for me when I needed her.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I would like to hear about the rupture, about what happened.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
So she came to visit our city and she stayed
with me at our house, which we just got last year,
so it was her first time seeing the place, hanging
out with us here, and she was in town for work,
so she came and stayed through the weekend. And as
she was driving home that weekend, she texted something that
(12:02):
was like a fat joke, and I responded that I
didn't like those kind of jokes, and she told me
to calm down, which is, in my personal experience, the
best way to make me not calm down, because I
felt like I was already calm, as you always do
when you get told that, and then things just blew up.
(12:28):
She said that we had different senses of humors and
different values, and that she didn't feel like she could
say anything to us and not to contact her again.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Were you surprised by the intensity of her reaction asking
you never to contact her again?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yes, yes, we were all surprised.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You are the two friends they were bystanders in this
or did they actually participate in that conversation?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It was in a group chat between the four of us,
and one of them participated a little bit and said
she didn't understand the reaction, and the other person remained silent.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Was the housemate the person who participated a little bit
or who remained silent.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
The housemate was the one who participated.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So was that zero to sixty and two seconds? So
whether a couple of stages of build up in between,
in between I don't like those kinds of jokes and
the never duck on my doorstep again? Was there a
couple of steps?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
It was pretty rapid.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
It was.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
I thought I was trying to politely say I don't
like those kinds of jokes, and I'm sure there's two
sides to how that can be interpreted, but it went
from me saying that to I want nothing to do
with you within minutes.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Is there some history around body image with Liza that
you're aware of that made her have that reaction in
that way.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So throughout the weekend when we were together, she made
some comments about and her body, and I didn't say anything.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
What kinds of comments, like she'd be eating a piece
of candy and then say something self denigrating, and I
didn't know how to respond and didn't like hearing her
talk about herself that way.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So she'd say something like, Oh, I shouldn't be eating
this because I'm so fat.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, things like that. And she's always liked to snack,
and she's had two kids, and she's had body issues
because she was in the military, and so she had
to maintain a certain standard and struggled with that at times.
So I know that that has been a thing for her.
(14:44):
Amongst our group, I feel like none of us ever
talk about our bodies and negative ways to each other.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Can we get a little more detail on what happened
between Hey, I don't like those kinds of jokes and
calmed down and then never talk to me again.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I don't think there really was much more than that.
There was just a rapid evolution to we don't think
the same way, we don't have the same humor or
values or body issues. And she didn't feel safe talking
to us about things because she didn't want to be
(15:27):
in arguments.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So I mean it sounded that she had been holding
a lot in and that accumulating a lot of a
grievances feelings. Had she voiced any of those concerns previously?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
No, No, we just had two and a half days
together with no arguments.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Have you guys ever had an argument?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, tell us about that?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Oh, oh gosh. Well, the last argument I can think
of is me asking how her relationship was with her husband,
and her turning around and asking me how mine was.
We're so far away from her. I guess I was
trying to check in to see if they were okay.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Did you have reason to believe that things were not
okay based off.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Of them not having pictures together on social media when
she used to do that kind of thing and have
pictures of them together on social media, and then not
talking about him much in conversations with us, just being
hush about it.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Did you just say how are things going with your husband?
She didn't answer and said, how are things going with
your husband? Where's the argument? Help us flush that out
a little bit?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I think that I asked, and then she was insulted
that I asked how things were going.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I'm sorry, and just be clear that was the argument
because I'm from New York. I just want to be clear.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Uh, yes, in the Midwest. This is how we argue.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I had the same question because I want my money back.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I get it was the show.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
That's the show. Yeah, that's that's the last time I
could think of that. We got angry at each other
before this.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Wait, how so here's our question because we because this
is this is like you're putting us in in a
different frame of mind about what an argument is. So
you said, how are things going with your husband? And
she said how are things going with yours? And then
you guys didn't talk anymore. But that was the argument,
and you both assumed that the other person was offended
(17:58):
by the question.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
No, it was. There was heated things between those two flagship.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Oh will help us, Okay, So that's what we'd like
to know, So you can you take us through the
dialogue a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
It was in text. I don't think I have the
text anymore. I think the flavor was basically, none of
your damn business, and who are you to ask? And
what about you? How are things for you. How am
I supposed to know any of that stuff?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And how did you respond to that? One example is
somebody might say, you know, oh, I'm really sorry. I
didn't mean to upset you. I just want to hear
what's going on with you? And other question is what's
going on here? I'm really confused about why you're so upset?
What was your response?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Probably some blend of those things, with a little bit
of a of anger back. Things are fine here, and
there's people who can see that things are fine here.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So defensiveness like, you're defending your marriage, but you're not
talking about what's happening between you and Lizay neither of
you is.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Have you and Isa ever talked about you and Liza?
If we have, I don't know when it would have been,
So that's a no.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So you defended your marriage and then what happened The
texting just stopped and you picked up another time and
you never spoke of it again, or you somehow repaired
that what happened exactly?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
She got defensive, I got defensive back. I don't remember
if I tried to justify to her why I asked
in the first place. I think that I probably tried
to communicate that a little bit, but certainly not entirely,
because I think some of why I asked was definitely
are other friendships reading between the lines and not sure
(19:55):
how she was doing, And I didn't fully tell her that.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
What got lost there is I care about you.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, well, I think that what happens is and what
this happens so much that you clearly asked that out
of concern. But in text, we do not have tonality,
and so what sounds very concerned when you're saying how's
your marriage comes across as how's your marriage? You know,
can be read that way certainly, and it's one of
(20:25):
those where you intended something one way, she read it
very much differently, and she read it differently because she
was already feeling some kind of tension distance and that
was how long ago this won the marriage.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Argument, Probably last year sometime.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So things were brewing already. She was already feeling some
kind of distance.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And some kind of judgment. You did not intend this,
but I think in both comments about the marriage, she
interpreted that as a judgment. And when you said I
don't find those kind of jokes funny, I think she
interpreted that as a judgment as well, and they both
seem to touch on areas that she's sensitive about. Maybe
she is sensitive about her marriage, and maybe she is
(21:04):
sensitive as you said with the comments she made over
the weekend about body.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Image, Wendy, and she might be sensitive about one other thing.
You both came from this very small town with twenty
five hundred people, and then she goes to an actually
smaller town and you will go to the big city.
And I think that that's symbolic, probably for her more
than for you, in that she might have felt that
you moved up and on in a way and she
(21:29):
did not, and that you were now people of the
big city and she was not. And maybe you are
mo sophisticated, maybe you know something and she was not,
but she clearly felt a part.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it's hard because we definitely want different things
in that way. She wanted to stay in a smaller town.
So we've known for a long time that we were
moving in different directions in that kind of a way.
But the dramatic rupture was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Guy asked the question, do you and Liza ever talk
about you and Liza? What about with your housemate? Do
you ever have conversations that are a little bit more
intimate than the kinds of conversations you've had with Liza. Yeah, yeah,
tell us about those. Can you give us some examples
with the kinds of conversations you've had that have been
a little bit more intimate about the two of you.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
A lot of our conversations about our own relationship are
when we're doing well and that we're grateful to have
the friendship that we have.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
So conflict resolution is not something that you've really ever
done as friends, not much.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Have you ever had an argument with your husband where
you had to do some repair with each other?
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Can you tell us about how those go? Give us
one example of an argument where it was about the
two of you, one of you did something that upset
the other person.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Well, I think what we're coming to here is that
I also avoid conflict and things just take time and
die off because because we usually sleep on it.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Can you give us an example of something that happened
where you did come back and talk about it and
what that conversation was like. Because most people have arguments
with their spouse rights all kinds like they sound so
silly when you try to recount them. You know, it's
like we had a fight over this one dish, right,
those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
So in the year twenty twenty, our favorite year ever. Right,
we were not sure we were going to make it
through this, and it was something that I got told
to me.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
You mean that your husband told you that.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, he said, I'm not sure I want us, I'm
not sure I want this, And he was just at
a point where he wasn't sure about anything. And that's
hard because in some ways it's definitely about our relationship,
but it was also about everything. When this first happened,
we at our housemate, and we also had someone that
(24:02):
we were just letting stay with us because we had
a shelter and place order in our state and so
they didn't want to be alone an apartment, so they
were hanging out with us. So there was four of
us in this house. And so, like right away, it
was about trying to find moments where he could tolerate
being in the same space with me and talking about
(24:24):
it at all. And like he didn't have anything.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Because he's he's afraid of talking about these things too. Yeah,
when you say he didn't have anything to say, you
mean you said, tell me what's not working for you?
Were you able to say that to him?
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And he said, he said that things just weren't how
he imagined they were going to be.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Did you get into detail with him about what some
of the specifics were that weren't working? Not much, No,
not really, So you don't today still know what that
was that wasn't working for him?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And what are things with him today?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
We seem good right now? Yeah, this is where the
podcast takes a whole different direction.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Now, it's actually so much the same direction.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Right That's why we're asking about it.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I ended up getting called up to do some work
that I was limited in how much time I could
be home, and so we had a little bit of
separation just via that. But I kept trying to talk
to him, and he tried to be kind and responding.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
How did you try to keep talking to him and
how did he respond?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I tried to stay open and vulnerable and make it
clear that I still wanted a relationship and he wasn't
sure and kept not being sure, but also said he
didn't want to hurt me, He didn't want me to suffer,
he didn't want me to feel pain. A lot of
that just like texting and communication as I was working
(25:59):
and doing other things, and then when I was able
to be here just one on one time with him,
asking try and ask him if he still wanted us,
if I could try to, you know, keep our relationship,
and that I would like to keep him.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
When did did you actually ever ask him? Tell me
what it is that you're not happy with? Tell me
what you think we should work on? Did you ever
ask him for any specifics or did you just ask
do you want us?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
I tried to ask what was wrong?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
And what did he say was wrong?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I think his response was mostly that just nothing felt right.
Things just weren't satisfying and weren't what he hoped things
would be and hadn't been for about six months in
terms of everything in.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Life, but specifically to your marriage. What was different for him?
What was he missing?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Did you ask?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yes, and he said what.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
He just said? He this wasn't what he thought it
would be.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And when you said, what do you mean by that?
Can you tell me more specifically what is not working
for you?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
He didn't have anything more to say.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So he was silent, and then you two would just
kind of stare at each other.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
What we were asking is how many rounds of follow
up did you actually do? Because I know that with
every round it's very painful the answer that you're getting,
And I'm wondering if that shuts you down or you
then inquire further and say, what do you mean everything?
Give me one example? Okay, so how long six months?
What's changed for you over six months? How much follow
(27:43):
up inquiry do you do? Not?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Much more than what you did just now? As an example, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Okay, was the exchange with Liza around the marriages? Before?
During or after this? Before?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Okay? When this was going on, did you confide in
your housemate who was living there with you that this
was going on? Or did you confide in Liza? Did
you confight in anybody?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I assume that the housemate could put some things together,
but she didn't say anything and was just respectful and
was just a warm presence and made sure that I
felt valued.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
In your letter, you seeing a little torn about whether
to I think you said let go of Liza. Can
you tell us a little bit more about that ambivalence?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
So some of it is surrendering an intimate, long friendship,
although I don't know how intimate of a friendship we've
been for a while really, And some of it is
because I don't think there's a lot of other people
in her life, so I worry about her in terms
of not having people that she can be close with.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
These are reasons that the loss of the friendship might
affect her. But I'm wondering about how the loss of
the friendship has affected you and how you imagine it
might affect you in the future.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
I mean, I have one last person that I can
call at two am if something happens.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Have you ever called her at two am?
Speaker 5 (29:20):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
I've been lucky to not need that.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well, so you say you've been lucky to not need
that your marriage almost imploded. That feels like a pretty
big thing. And yet you didn't call her at two
am or anyone, even your housemate. And then another big
thing that you wrote in your letter was that your
father died. Yeah, how did you reach out to people?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Then?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I talked to my partner, and I talked to my
housemate or our friends in our city. I reached out
to a lot of them via text to let them
know what was going on, and I had some good
conversations with a couple of those people.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
What was the conversation with your housemaid.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
My housemate did not like my dad, so that conversation
was a lot about the torn feeling that comes with
losing someone that you have a complicated relationship with, and
I was able to have that conversation with her and
with my partner.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
I'm glad that you were able to really talk about that.
And I think what Guy was getting at earlier is
that in this conversation it might have been easier because
it wasn't about you and your housemate. It was about
you and your complicated feelings about losing your father when
you had a difficult relationship. But I think what's hardest
for anybody to talk about is what's happening between the
(30:45):
two of us, and it's hard for you to do
that with your husband. To this day. You're not really
clear about why he wanted to end your marriage, and
I don't think the two of you have really come
to any place of emotional intimacy around that. I don't
know how solid or stable you feel in the relationship.
I don't know that you've had a lot of practice
(31:06):
doing that growing up, and certainly with even this core
group of friends that you've known since elementary and high school.
And I think that's the piece that's missing here.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
There's one thing we know about relationships, and that is
that for them to survive and thrive, and this is
true of romantic relationships, but really it's true of most
friendships as well, you have to be able to develop
skills with conflict resolution. And conflict resolution means that you
(31:38):
are able to talk about the conflict that you're having
and result it and figure it out. And that starts
with asking each other questions so that you understand better
what the other person is upset about or how they
feel about things. And once you have a good understanding
each of you of how the other person feels and why,
then you start figuring out what you can do about it,
whether it's an apology or compromise, whatever that is. And
(32:02):
that's a skill set I just don't think that you've
developed very much. And I think it's it's costing you
a little bit in moments where you could really use it,
like with your husband. Certainly that was a moment and
still is in which you need to use it, and
certainly that was the case with Liza. And since you
have long lasting friendships. It's going to be the case
(32:23):
with anyone. Can you tell me a little bit, why
is that something that you've really not practiced much.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense,
and it's unfortunate because it's a lot you know, it's
a lot easier trying to win or lose arguments rather
than engage in talking about the difficulties in your own
relationships with them.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
When you were growing up, you said you had a
difficult relationship with your father. What did conflict look like
in your family?
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Isolating from each other mostly.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So nobody really talked about what happened. It was kind
of like what you've done with your husband a little
bit and what you tend to do. Yeah, you know,
guys using this term conflict resolution, which I think for
a lot of people sounds like something that happens in
negotiations and relationships are in a way, negotiations and another
(33:22):
way to put it though, is rupture and repair. So
there's a rupture between two people in a relationship and
a friendship, and then how do you repair it. So
a lot of people say, oh, we never argue, we
have a great relationship, and we always say that's odd
because in general, people do have disagreements if they are
(33:45):
really emotionally intimate with each other. No two people are
going to get through a real rich relationship and not
have disagreements at some point or another. And so the
issue isn't whether you have the ruptures. The issue is
how do you repair them? And it sounds to us
like you don't have a lot of practice repairing them,
(34:06):
And no matter what you decide to do with this
relationship with Eliza, that's going to be a skill that's
going to come in very handy for you. I think
it would help for us to just get a little
more clear on one issue, which is you kind of
have made it sound like you are done with the
relationship and you're trying to let go. And I think
what we're curious about is how did you come to
that conclusion as opposed to feeling like there might be
(34:29):
some value in continuing this friendship, but maybe in a
way that's more nourishing for both of us.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
So one of the things I keep going back to
in my mind is there's this moment where she was
visiting and she was really surprised. She says, she said
to me that she just didn't understand. She didn't understand
my partner because he's into cooking and sports. She thought
(34:56):
that these were incompatible features, that he couldn't be someone
who is into these different things. It hurt me because
it seemed like she couldn't see his humanity beyond a
trope that he couldn't be more than one thing. And
I have a hard time valuing someone who thinks that
(35:16):
people can only be one thing.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
See, there are so many assumptions going on here, because
you think that she meant your partner's weird, right, that
there's something wrong with him, Whereas it could be that
there was even some envy there. You know, then maybe
it didn't come out that way. Maybe it came out
because of her envy. It came out as an insult,
(35:39):
you know, in tone. But it might be that maybe
she's envious of that that well, you have a partner
who you know watches football and cooks, but you just
don't know because the two of you didn't talk about it.
You didn't say, oh wait, what do you mean? It
was just ouch, I'm hurt and I'm going to file
(35:59):
that went away.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, it sounds like from what you're saying that Lisa
hasn't added a lot of value in your life, and
that the thing that's making you question whether you should
let her go is your concern for her, but not
that you're going to miss much of Lisa? Is that
correct or? And I'm asking because this is given the
(36:24):
reality up until now or of you not doing any
repair or conflict resolution. But if that was something that
you will say had a little bit of practice in,
does that open possibilities with Liza or not?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Really, I don't know what kind of value I would
get out of a friendship with her right now, because
it feels like I haven't gotten any value from that
friendship for a while.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
So I was hearing something a little bit different. I
was hearing that there were things that you would miss
about this friendship. And maybe it's a piece of your childhood.
Maybe it's just that she's entertaining and she makes you laugh.
Maybe it's that just she knows you in a way
that a lot of people don't know you. And it
sounds like you're trying to be very binary in how
you define this friendship, like Okay, we're not going to
(37:12):
be friends, or we're going to be friends. But there's
a lot in the we're going to be friends in
terms of what that range looks like, and your idea is, well,
she cut us off, so I'm just gonna cut her
out too. But I can't seem to cut her out
because I still think about her. And she sent me
(37:33):
that note after my father died, And you have this
fantasy that if you respond to that note, that you
will have and you use the word in your letter closure,
some kind of closure to the friendship. And I'm looking
at your face and I'm seeing that there's some kind
of pain around that. So I'm not sure that you
know yet what you want. And so that's why I
(37:55):
really want you to try to look at this not
as how do I get closure on this friendship, but
how do I get more information about whether I want
to not engage in this friendship anymore. I don't think
you're there yet. Does that sound right?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah? That does sound right, okay, Wendy. So we have
two pieces of advice for you. The first is about Liza.
We would like you to contact her so that you
get more information about what's going on if she chooses
to respond, and we think the best way for you
to do that is to say to her something like Lisa,
(38:36):
I thank you for your card. The reason it's taken
me a while to respond is because I've been thinking
about our friendship, and I realized that there was a
lot brewing before our fight last year, and that there
was a lot that was troubling you in the friendship.
And I never asked to hear what that was, or
(38:56):
what was troubling you or why you aren't feeling good
in the friendship. I should have, And I realize I'm
not good at doing that, but I want to get
better at doing that, And so I'd love to have
a conversation with you, if you're willing a video conversation,
so we can talk a little bit about what happened
and what this friendship means to us after so many years,
and how you feel. I just love to hear a
(39:18):
little bit more about what was going on for you.
Our feeling is that she's probably felt judged by you
and the other two friends. You should anticipate that if
she agrees to have the conversation, that those are the
kinds of things she might say, in which case, really
(39:38):
all you need to do is say, Okay, I understand,
tell me a little bit more. How you felt and oh, okay,
I understand, And what you're trying to do there is
really just try and see if talking about things like
that with her will open things up between the two
of you so you can make a decision.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
And really the goal of the conversation, no matter what
what happens with her, is for you to get practice
having these kinds of conversations. And the reason that you're
going to be asking about her side of things and
how she feels is because in order for you to
be understood, first, you have to understand the other person.
So you might have a lot of responses in your
(40:17):
head like oh, I didn't mean that, or that was
not what I said, or you have that wrong. This
is not the time to bring that up. The whole
task here is to listen to what she has to
say so that you understand more about this person that
you have this long history with. And we also want
to say that at the end of that call, it's
(40:38):
not as though you're going to determine yes, I want
to be friends with her, No, I don't want to
be friends with her. There's a lot of gray in there,
and you see how things evolve from there. Does it
open something up for the two of you. Can you
continue to have conversations like this? Can she eventually hear
a little bit about how you've been feeling. So that's
just a place to start.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
One thing, I know this is going to seem very
scary to you to do, because these are uncomfortable conversations
for somebody who has in practice. The scary part is
usually what if they say this? What if they say that?
What do I say? And we're taking away that part
for you because all you need to say, no matter
what she says, is Okay, I understand, and if you don't,
you ask questions until you do. But you actually don't
have to defend, explain, justify, I rationalize, You meediately just
(41:21):
have to listen and understand. And so there's the difficult
part has been taken away a bit, so it should
be a little less scary.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's a welcoming of what she says. You don't have
to agree with it factually, but it's the gratitude of
thank you for sharing this with me. I'm so glad
we can talk.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Like this because it's going to be hard for her
to share.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
She's going to need a lot of reinforcement of that
You're really grateful that she feels comfortable enough to share
this with you, even if she doesn't present it in
the most optimal way. So that's number one, and then
number two is we'd like you to do something similar
with your husband. We would like you to say to him, listen,
I know that things seem better between us, and I
(42:00):
also know that you have been very careful not to
hurt me. But I've been thinking about this and the
not knowing hurts me more than whatever you might have
to say about how you're really feeling. And so I'd
like us to be able to have a conversation where
I can really understand much more specifically what was going
(42:24):
on might still be going on, And we want to
give you some buckets that might help. Because he tends
to kind of vague out right, you can say, how
are you feeling about the ways that we communicate with
each other? How are you feeling about the closeness between us,
How are you feeling about the ways we have fun
with each other? How are you feeling about things that
(42:45):
go on with our families. How are you feeling about
the way we handle our jobs and the way we
handle things around the house.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
How are you feeling about our roommates.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
How are you feeling about things that we might do
in the future, like have children, How are you feeling
about our sex life, how are you feeling about yourself?
How are things going with you? And so when he
says something very vague in the answer to these questions,
you follow up with tell me more, just those three words,
(43:15):
tell me more. I want to understand better, or what
do you mean by that? Or what specifically can you
give me an example and keep reassuring him during the conversation.
This is so helpful for me. I know you don't
want to hurt me, and things that you might say
might be hard for me to hear, but they're not
as hard as not having this conversation.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Okay, well, I mean that definitely feels like an easier
proposition for the relationship that has already in some ways ended,
and scarier for the one that's ongoing.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, that makes sense, But I think it's going to
be really good for you either way, no matter what
happened in either of these conversations. You didn't get this
growing up, and you're not getting it in any of
your other relationships. It sounds like or any of the
ones you've mentioned.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Today you were having your turn on the headlights because
you're navigating in the dark, and this will give you
a light and you'll at least know what you need
to navigate around. Okay, Wendy, we know this is going
to be scary, but we also really know that you
can do it.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
You know, Wendy's story just reminds me that if you
learn something about yourself that you're doing in one relationship
in your life, check if you're doing it in any
of the others, because you probably are.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, And that's why I think this is going to
be really effective for her is that it's opening up
this possibility for her about how to handle rupture and repair.
There are so many people out there like Wendy who
grew up in houses where they did not get good
models of what it means to resolve conflict, and that's
what we're really trying to help her with here.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
IM really curious to see how she does.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
You're listening to Dear Therapist for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
So we heard from Wendy and we gave her a
dual task of speaking up about the relationship and processing
something with someone, maybe for the first time in her life,
both with her friend and with her husband, and I
think those were important conversations for her to have. Let's
hear if she had them.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Lauren Guy, thank you for your time and advice. I
was able to talk to e Liza on the phone.
I was really surprised with how receptive she was to
speak with me, and she was really willing to engage
and discuss her feelings about things. It was a difficult
(46:07):
conversation for me to initiate, but it really wasn't hard
once I heard her voice again and she heard mine
for us to talk and be open with each other.
I heard some things that were difficult to hear, but
I felt incredibly capable, both during the conversation and afterwards
(46:28):
to have ongoing conversations with her and for us to
decide together what the nature of our friendship might be
in the future. The conversation with my husband took a
while to actually complete. We danced around it for a while,
and ultimately I got some more specific answers, but it
(46:50):
feels like something we'll have to repeat multiple times before
we really communicate well together. That said, I'm not afraid
of any shading that conversation again, and I feel a
lot less afraid of what's being left unsaid by probing
a little bit more and just listening to one another.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
The thing about having conversations like this for the very
first time is that it really depends on who you're
having them with, because it sounds like maybe Liza wasn't
able earlier to be more direct about how she was feeling,
but she was incredibly receptive, and that was the first
thing that Wendy said. She was receptive, She wanted to
(47:39):
have the conversation, she participated in the conversation, and they
were both really willing to be open with each other.
I think the problem with the conversation with her husband
is that he is not receptive, so she has no
practice doing this. She has never in her life had
practice having a conversation with somebody about that relationship. So
(48:02):
she may have been vulnerable in other ways, but it
wasn't about what's going on between you and me right now.
That is a conversation she's never had. Liza was open
to that. Her husband, we suspected from our earlier conversation,
was probably not going to be very open to that.
And so I think that just by virtue of her
coming to him and saying, I want to talk about this,
(48:25):
that it will take some time, but that she's opened
a door there, just a little bit that had been
slammed shut between them.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I'm grateful for Lisa because Liza gave her and us
the opening to say, you need to practice having these
conversations because really you need to have them with your husband.
That seemed much more urgent and important than with Liza.
I mean, Lisa's a friend, and I think that's important,
but there were issues going on with a husband that
really needed to be addressed. I'm hoping she continues this
(48:57):
dialogue with Liza. It will help her to then continue
having the dialogue with her husband. If she can practice
on Liza, who's a better responder, she can then bring
that perhaps to conversations with her husband and over time,
get them to be more open with one another. Because
clearly that was sounded like it was a bit of
teeth pulling.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, and I hope that Liza not only models for
her how can I have these conversations with my husband?
But I also hope that Liza can be a support
for her and maybe encourage her to be more open
with her husband, to really give her the moral support,
give her the you know the things that friends can
do to kind of hold you up when you're doing
(49:38):
something very difficult.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Well, that would really be a nice switch to rough right,
because their last fight was about relationships with husbands and
who's had problems. And the suspicion was that both did.
My measure of whether a conversation was successful, the minimum
bar really is do you feel an easing after the
conversation or do you feel crease of tension? And it
(50:01):
sounds like in both those conversations that were somewhat of
an easy so they were both successful, even the one
with her husband, because she did sound like she felt
a little bit better. She said she's less afraid of
the unsaid things. So to me, that's an indication it
was perhaps as successful as a first effort might be.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
That's something I really want people listening to this to understand,
is that the opening conversation is the beginning of something.
It's setting the stage for something, it's planting the seeds.
And I like your way guy of measuring the success
of a conversation, because I think in both instances, these
conversations were a success.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Next week, a young man seeks all counsel on whether
to try to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (50:47):
Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I
know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and
you know I told her I don't have to have
a drink again.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, Bigosmooth,
email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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