Encore: S03 Ep. 13 - Melanie’s Difficult Mother

This week we’re in session with Melanie, who wonders if it’s possible to interact with her mother in adulthood in a way that won’t cause so much pain.

 

If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at [e-mail].

 

Follow us both online:

 

LoriGottlieb.com and on Twitter @LoriGottlieb1 and Instagram @lorigottlieb_author

 

GuyWinch.com and on Twitter @GuyWinch and Instagram @Guy Winch

 

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a woman with a difficult mother wonders if there's a
way to interact with her that won't cause so much pain.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
She was saying that she'd always tried to be a
good mother. I felt they poked, She'd kept poking at it.
She would talk quite defensively about why she couldn't have
done them better, what was going on for her at
the time.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is
not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia
use it in part orn ful, and we may edit
it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear.
All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Hey, Lourie, Hi guy. So what do we have in
our mailbooks today?

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Today we have a letter from a woman who has
a difficult relationship with her mother, and it goes like this,
Dear therapists, I am writing for help with my relationship
with my mother. Since I stopped drinking a couple of
years ago, I have felt a lot of resentment when
I'm around her. This came as a surprise to me.
I want a relationship with her, but I've come to
think that the low self esteem I struggled with throughout

(01:46):
my twenties, which led to a pattern of numbing with alcohol,
was the result of having two emotionally neglectful parents. A
depressed and alcoholic father who was often absent, and a
physically present but narcissistic mother. I learned that my feelings
didn't matter, and I've carried that into adult life. When
I am around my mother, I feel like she takes
up all of this space and oxygen. What hurts most

(02:08):
is that she rarely asked me anything about myself except
one or two token questions, and she changed the subject
back to her rapidly. She is also very defensive about
any feedback or even the most minor hint of criticism.
Things became very strained between us about two years ago
when I accidentally opened a can of worms. My mom
for many years has worried obsessively about my older sister,

(02:30):
who has various emotional difficulties and has genuinely struggled with life.
Not that I haven't, but my mom has a narrative
of me being quote the strong one, and she says
this to me directly, things like Claire struggles, but You've
always been much more resilient. I find this incredibly painful
because this isn't how I see myself, and because I
feel she's used this narrative as a reason not to

(02:51):
give me support. This included the period of my late
teens when I was self medicating with party drugs, skipping
college due to lack of motivation, and clearly developed an
eating disorder. But I can't remember any adult in my
family ever asking if I was okay. I remember my
mom yelling at me for skipping college, and when she
found my antidepressant, she said, you don't need to be
on those. Finally, a couple of years ago, I ended

(03:14):
up telling her that I didn't like her, casting me
as the resilient one, and she got very defensive and
then went to Pieces in the end collapsing on the
beach and saying she thought we loved each other again.
It seemed to be about her. I took a break
from her for a few months, but when she visited
me months later, we segued back into this conversation and
it became very heated. She went to Pieces again and

(03:35):
I ended up looking after her. I'm trying to see
the best in my mother, but I grapple with questions
of whether I should ever ask her to do anything differently.
Is there any point given her history of defensiveness and
poor listening and communication skills. I would really appreciate your advice.
I feel so stuck Melanie.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, I really feel for Melanie because it sounds like
she's in a lot of pain about this relationship and
obviously has been since her childhood, and from what she's describing,
her mother certainly has limitations, and it sounds like Melanie
is having a hard time accepting what those are and
navigating around them. She I think, keeps hoping her mother

(04:14):
will show up for her in a way her mother
never really has, and so she's really stuck in this
limbo of wanting a relationship with her mom that she
can't have and at the same time perhaps having trouble
exploring what relationship with her mother she could have. And
that's where she's stuck right now.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, we see this so much where people come in
and they're really in pain over the relationships with one
or both parents and they want to have a relationship
with that parent. But what they're really not clear on
is do I want a relationship with this parent given
this parent's limitations and what would that look like versus

(04:55):
still having that childhood fantasy of I want a relationship
with the kind of parent that I deserve to have.
So let's go talk to her and learn more about
this relationship. Absolutely, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my
Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Dear Therapist.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Hi Melanie, Hi there, thank you for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
You're very welcome. We wanted to start with this question.
Tell us a little bit about what it was like
growing up with your mum.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
I would say that we were loved as kids, me
and my sister. You know, we did nice activities. We
saw friends for we went on outings. We had all
our sort of practical needs met. They had Christmas presents,
we had some holidays. Things were quite good in ways.

(06:02):
But looking back, I feel like my mum has never
really been sort of present mentally, and even now I
never feel like she's really fully present with me. I
also feel like we didn't get enough validation of our emotions.

(06:26):
So I feel like what I was really missing was
that kind of calm, attentive presence and like the nourishing
parental influence.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Do you remember moments from your childhood in which that
was absent.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
I can remember being really little, like five or six maybe,
and my mum walking me home from school every day,
and every day she'd ask what did you do at
school today? And I remember that every day I'd say nothing.
And I think this is strange to have that awareness

(07:06):
of what was going on for me at such a
young age, But I think what it was was like,
I never really felt like she was interested. I felt
it was a standard issue question, so I'd always say
nothing because I didn't really feel like she was listening.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Did you wish that she had asked something else? Or
did you just feel like if I answered, she's not
going to be paying attention.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
I think it was more the latter. As I've got older,
I've definitely wanted her to ask different questions, and you know,
the kinds of questions I would ask friends. For example,
I wouldn't just say how was work and then move on.
I'd say, you know, like, how was work he says

(07:51):
you were having a rough time lately, or how is
that new manager working out? So I've always felt like
the questions are kind of standard issue. She doesn't really
listened to what you say, and then she's kind of
moved on.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Where does she move to when she moves on? Is
it about her? Is it about small talk? Where does
she go?

Speaker 3 (08:13):
She often moves on to her. She'll bring things back
to her own life, her own experience quite consistently.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Do you have recollections from your adolescence of moments in
which this dynamic happened? Where she wasn't quite present, or
she seemed to be asking the question, but the substance
was lacking.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
For you, I do there was a particularly difficult time
in my late teens when my mental health was going downhill.
She would kind of demand factual information from me, didn't
really ask what's going on for you? Is everything okay
for you? How are you feeling? I would be asked,

(08:58):
why are you seeing that? You know, what kind of
anxiety do you have? And oh? At that time, and
it has other times felt like a sort of bombardment
of questions as opposed to like I'm here, I'm listening,
you know, asking more open questions of the kind I

(09:19):
would like someone to do when I'm feeling fragile.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
I think that goes back to being five years old
and leaving school, and instead of saying how are you,
she said what did you do today? There's a very
different questions, and that wouldn't be a big deal if
she meant it in that way, but it sounds like
she did not mean it in that way. She wasn't
looking to really hear how you were. And I think

(09:45):
that when you were struggling and you were trying to
get help in your teens there were Again, wasn't that
question of what's going on? Talk to me? I'm here.
How can I help.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
As well? If you you were seeing a therapist and
taking medication in your teens and your mother was against it,
then how did you get hooked up with a therapist
and a psychiatrist.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
I went to my doctor at how old? Seventeen? I
went to the GP. I was referred to psychiatry.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
But Sora Melanie, usually at seventeen it goes through a parent.
You just initiated this yourself. I think there's something wrong.
I'm going to contact myp and not even tell my
parents about it.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
I didn't. I didn't really feel I had an adult
who would be there for me. I felt very alone
with it, and I think I I was alone.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
You said that your father was largely absent. Can you
tell us a little bit about him as well, so
we understand the context in which you ended up going
to the doctor alone.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
My parents divorced when I was twelve, and it was
very messy and in the same town as us when
I was seventeen, but I could go long periods without
seeing him, and in the years running up to that age,
and for some years after. He had long periods of
serious alcoholism. He wasn't really there a lot of the time.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Did you see that in the house before they divorced?
Did you see him drinking and checking out?

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah? Yeah. After my mum left him, he kind of
deteriorated quite quickly. We were still living with him, but
he was off work with depression. He was drinking a lot,
and he was kind of leaning on me and my
sister emotionally as like a twelve year old and fifteen

(11:44):
year old, So that was very difficult.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Was the reason that your mum left him because he
was drinking and not doing anything about it.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
I think she left him because he was just not
being a present partner, not pulling his weight around the house.
And really they're just quite badly matched. That's quite obvious
with twenty years of hindsight.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
How did you feel about them separating? You were twelve.
Do you remember how they told you?

Speaker 3 (12:15):
My mum had told me she was going to leave
a couple of years before she did, and then I
think she tried to stick it out. I don't think
I was that bothered by the separation itself. I think
it was all the stuff around it. So how it
was handled the fallout, I.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Suppose what did the fallout look like?

Speaker 3 (12:38):
So my dad deteriorated and was drinking a lot and
not looking after the house. He was spying on my mum.
He had followed by a detective. At one point. There
was a very weird situation. They were living next door
to each other because my mum owned the house next door.
She previously rented it out, and in the absence of

(13:04):
many other options, she just sort of moved in there.
I felt very kind of self conscious about this strange
situation at home. My dad was a mess. We're probably
exposed to a lot of stuff with him that we
weren't capable of dealing with. It didn't really feel like
there was anyone asking us how we were doing.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
You say you were exposed to things that you're not
supposed to be exposed to. Can you give us an example?

Speaker 3 (13:34):
Just his sort of letting it all hang out emotionally.
And I was dating someone new and he'd say, what
hals he got that I haven't got, And he would
say to me how lonely he was. And there was
a time when he was saying to me, he was
so lonely, and he really found it hard going to
bed and being alone in bed, and I offered to

(13:57):
stay in bed with him to ease his life, and
I did, and I didn't really want to because I
was twelve. I didn't want to share a bed with
my dad, but you know, I wanted him to feel better.
It was a horrible environment.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Did you ever talk to your mom about what was
going on with your dad? The things where he was
asking you for company in ways that weren't appropriate, That
he was telling you things about his personal struggles that
weren't appropriate.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
I think I told hers some of it, and I
think she actually directly observed some of it and was
quite critical of that.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
But in terms of protecting you from all of this,
can you remember at all what maybe even one of
those conversations might have been like?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
No, do you recall how you felt at that time?
Were you angry? Did you blame one or the other?
Were you talking with friends with things that emotionally for you?

Speaker 3 (15:00):
I felt worried about my dad, and at times I
was trying to be there for him, and at other
times I just found it so horrendous. I didn't want
to look at it. And then I would, you know,
try and spend more time away from him, and I'd
feel guilty about that.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Where was your sister and all of this. You mentioned
that she's three years older and that your mom does
recognize that she struggled from the fallout of all of this.
So what was going on between the two of you?
Did you support each other? Did your mom listen to
her a little bit more?

Speaker 3 (15:37):
We were not close at that time and not for
many years afterwards. Actually we were quite mean to each other.
She kind of scrambled much more than me to go
into looking after dad and felt very very protective of him,
And looking back, I think I saw that she was
a bit more angry with my mum. We're very close

(15:59):
now and I like a great ally in her, very
grateful that we've improved our relationship, But I don't think
she was getting much input from my mum at that
time either.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Was there anyone at the time who knew that you
were really struggling? Because I want to point out when
anyone we ask you how you felt, you almost each
time first responded about how your mom or your dad
felt before you could talk about how you felt. And
I think that's probably representative of what was going on.
But was there anyone who asked who you approached and

(16:34):
talked about how you felt.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
No, there wasn't anyone.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
What happened when you were seventeen and you went to
go see the doctor and you were referred to a psychiatrist.
You told the doctor a little bit about what was
going on.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
I didn't tell the doctor about any family circumstances. I
mainly talked about my sort of mental health symptoms. Referred
me to psychiatry, and they did a proper assessment. They
put me on antidepressants, and they referred me for cognitive
behavioral therapy. I quit after a few sessions because I

(17:14):
was aware. I didn't pursue it, but I think what
I really needed at that particular time was just an
adult to take an interest. We weren't talking about what
was going on at all, and I was kind of
doing exercises to address my symptoms. And I remember thinking,

(17:36):
you know, I've been feeling suicidal for months and you're
giving me exercises.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Did you tell them that you were feeling suicidal?

Speaker 3 (17:46):
I did in the initial assessment, which is why they
put me on the antidepressants. I would have thought that
information was pastitive the therapist, but we didn't really talk
about it.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
This feels almost like a repetition of what would happen
in your family, where you're doing everything you can to
try to let people know that you're struggling, and people
are not giving you the kind of response that would
be helpful, and you were sort of numbing yourself with

(18:21):
recreational drugs. You were restricting your eating, you were trying
to find ways to cope with a situation where you
weren't getting any support.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, I think that's right. I was using a lot
of drugs from seventeen and these are the kinds of
drugs that are really messed with your brain.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
What were you using, Well, a lot.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Of eggs to say, that was my drug of choice.
And yes, I had an eating disorder. It wasn't ever diagnosed.
I didn't ever pursue any help with that, and I
just kind of fell out of it at some point.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know, Manine, it's so unusual for a seventeen year
old to pick themselves up and find a psychiatrist and
get assessed and then find a therapist. And it's so
unfortunate that you were desperately searching for some kind of
connection with some kind of adult who you could rely on,
because there were none, and it sounds like there was

(19:21):
zero connection with a therapist, and that just affirms to
you that adults don't see me.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I do remember feeling very alone, completely alone.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
And on top of that, your mom found your anti
depressants and told you you don't need these, but didn't
seem curious at all about why you had them in
the first place. Did she ask you about that?

Speaker 3 (19:53):
She didn't ask me any questions. It was ironic. She
worked in psychiatry herself. Looking back, I think maybe she
was feeling scared and she reacted with anger and she
yelled at me and said, I remember very clearly she said,
I work with very sick people. You don't need to

(20:13):
be on these.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Do you remember telling her mom, I'm really struggling.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
No. I think I felt like I couldn't trust her.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
What did you think she would do if you had
said that?

Speaker 3 (20:28):
I didn't feel like she would handle them sensitively and
you know, tactfully and give me, you know, reassuring input.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
So the trust was she won't be able to help me,
so it's a waste to tell her anyway, or the
trust is she might share this with people.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, she has compromised by privacy. At other times, just
other things, I felt like she wouldn't be caring and
and I needed that care and sensitivity. She was often
quite angry with me. I feel like I was struggling
and I was kind of granded as Devian. That's how

(21:11):
I felt.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
This is so important because I think it relates to
what you're dealing with now, which is this idea that
I don't trust her to be careful with my heart.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
I need you to get me right.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
I think it's because I just touched your heart in
a way that you longed for your mom to that
I saw you in a way that you want your
mom to see you. And so I think that when
we're young and we know that we're not going to
get the response that's going to be caring and loving,

(21:57):
we start to distrust that person to handle our most tender,
vulnerable parts.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
That sounds like very accurate to.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Me, and unfortunately for you, there wasn't anyone else that
was compensating for that. In other words, what you're probably
feeling at the time is that I can't trust anyone
with my heart because no one was taking any interest
in it. People could see that the parents got divorced,
that you might have been struggling. Suddenly there's a weight loss,

(22:28):
you're partying too much, and yet no one expressed concern
or care, So that mistrust must have expanded even beyond
your mom to people in general. Are there people who
can really care for me?

Speaker 3 (22:42):
That hasn't occurred to me before, But potentially, yes, we
did have relatives who were in our lives. No one
ever asked how I was doing. I can remember my
auntie stopping me in the street and she sunded very
cross and say, you've got very thin, and she kind
of pulled at my trousers, just you know, to show

(23:04):
how much weight I'd lost. But it wasn't concerned. I felt.
I almost felt like I was being told off.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
It felt like a criticism, like you've done something wrong,
as opposed to tell me what's going on? Are you okay?
Can I ask how old you are now?

Speaker 3 (23:22):
I'm thirty six?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Okay, So between seventeen and thirty six, what has happened
with the relationship with your mom and your dad? And
then also you mentioned that you and your sister have
now reconciled.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
So with my dad, I feel like we're in the
best place that we can be. I feel like he
has quite big limitations in terms of how close he
can just get to people. But I see him more
than I ever have. He has to stabilizer relationship, so
he's doing fairly well in himself, and I kind of

(24:07):
I don't really struggle so much with my relationship with
my dad because I feel like that's as good as
it's going to get, and it's a lot better than
it has been at times.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Does he have any idea about how much you've struggled?
Did you ever share that with him?

Speaker 3 (24:25):
No? I don't think he can really do emotional conversations.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
And what about your sister? When did that reconciliation happen?
And what does that look like in terms of the
emotional intimacy between the two of you.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
I think there's just been a sort of softening for
both of us as we've got older. I've made a
conscious effort to speak to her more, and we have
quite intimate conversations now, like they're really nourishing to me.
We would never have had these ten years.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
When did that start? And who reached out?

Speaker 3 (25:03):
I think she has kind of sprung into action when
I've heard some difficult things going on in my life.
When I've left relationships, she's made an effort to connect
with me and check in with me. I've had some
health problems lately, as saying, the last year or two,
for some reason, we've started talking a lot about this

(25:26):
historical family stuff and current issues which we both have
with a mother.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
And it sounds like that was the first time that
another adult, even though she's your peer for both adults
now showed concern for something you were struggling with.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yes, for example, I left an abusive relationship and we
weren't living in the same town, but I remember when
I visited home, we were together a bit, and I
just remember feeling very cared for by her at that time.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
What did she do that made you feel cared for?

Speaker 3 (26:08):
She gave me all the kind of kind words and
assurances and encouragements that I needed and wanted, and she
also helped me navigate conversations with my parents. I think
I remember seeing my dad with her, and I didn't
necessarily have to tell him, but for whatever reason, I

(26:30):
wanted to tell him I've been in this abusive relationship,
and I think she kind of helped me tell him
and navigate that conversation that he wasn't really that well
equipped for. I just felt that she had my back.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
I suppose she listened, is what she did. I mean,
this is the first thing. She can say, the kind words,
but in order to say them, she first has to
listen and actually hear you and actually see you and
actually convey that she gets what you were going through.
And then she consider words that are supportive. But even
when she's helping you navigate the conversation with your dad,

(27:08):
she's clearly listening and seeing you in a way that
none of the family members had. That must have been
really important for you in your early twenties to have
that experience for the first time of a family member
actually caring, actually helping, actually validating it.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Was It was really meaningful, and maybe that was the
start of us gradually improving our relationship.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
I also think it's one thing to imagine what it
would feel like to get that kind of support, and
it's another thing entirely to actually experience it. And you
had been I imagine, fantasizing about what it would be
like your whole childhood to get that kind of support.
Maybe you even saw other people with their mothers or
fathers and had envy of what you imagined those conversations

(28:00):
look like in their households, and so you can fantasize
about it. When you get it, it's almost like you've
been dreaming of a meal forever and you're starving, and
then all of a sudden someone feeds you. And it
feels so delicious to get that kind of support, to
be seen, to be heard, to be understood, and maybe

(28:22):
in a way that other people wouldn't quite understand because
she grew up in that house too, even if she
had a different experience of it, So it seems like
that maybe set the stage for something to happen between
the two of you.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
I think it did.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
She said, you've gotten into some historical family conversations. What
have those been like?

Speaker 3 (28:46):
We've just been sharing our experiences of some really difficult times,
including you know, our parents' separation and the things that
happened around that. And then our experience is moving to
a new town a little bit later and both feeling
quite lonely, in adrift and like we didn't really belong

(29:13):
and she had some slightly different stuff going on. It
wasn't exactly the same experience, but it's been really healing
to kind of revisit that in what feels like a safe,
nurturing place and both hear each other.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
You mentioned some struggles with relationships that have happened over
your life. Tell us a little bit about this relationship
history and what tends to happen and where you feel
things go wrong.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
So I'll show you some pretty dubious partners in my twenties.
There were people who didn't really respond to my needs
or validate my feelings, some quite angry people. But if
I've tried to understand the kind of pattern, the sort
of picked relationships where I don't feel seen and stayed

(30:06):
in them quite a long time on some occasions.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
So basically a revisit of your childhood.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yes, So when did that any drop for you were
saying it quite clearly, Now, when did you have that
realization that you're replicating your childhood and choosing people that
weren't seeing you.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
I left a long term relationship a couple of years ago,
and I had some psychotherapy after that, and that helped
me get a bit more understanding.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
And do you see a change in who you select
these days? After that insight?

Speaker 3 (30:43):
I do my standards are a lot higher. I want
to meet someone and have a family, so I have
a lot of worry around that sometimes that might never
happen for me. Time is sticking away. But I am
in a place now where, like I won't accept less
and that's good.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
It is Are you also in a place where you
can feel that, maybe not right away, but with the
right person, that you can be vulnerable, that you can trust,
that you can give them a chance to see there
and be validating and supportive because you also have to
bring someone in enough to give them that opportunity. Are
you doing that?

Speaker 3 (31:24):
I'm practicing. I'm definitely getting better. I've consciously tried to
be more vulnerable with people, you know, relatives, friends, romantic partners. Well,
I I'm making very good progress there, Like I'm really
working on it.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Is that what prompted you a couple of years ago
to finally, after all these years, tell your mom how
you felt about the way she characterizes you as the
resilient one.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Yes, I've been practicing speaking my truth. I've been practicing
talking about my needs, telling people, well, I'm not happy
And actually I sort of segued into that difficult conversation
with my mum or it came out sort of by accident,

(32:18):
but when it was happening, I really stayed with it,
And even though it's been pretty horrible at times out
of conversation, I felt really hurt. I was also really
proud of myself speaking minds and in reality, whether she
wanted to listen or.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Not, you said that your mom fell to pieces on
the beach and sort of collapsed and you had to
contain her. Had something like that ever happened with her before?

Speaker 3 (32:48):
Not as extreme as that? Now when I'm around her,
I think I've often felt like I'm walking on eggshells
and I had to kind of navigate a slight volatility,
but nothing like that before.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Can you just tell us a little bit about what
actually that looked like that conversation when she felt pieces
because people use that term, but what was actually happening
with her in that conversation.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
She was crying, She was saying things like I thought
we loved each other. She was saying that she'd always
tried to be a good mother. I felt very poked.
She'd kept poking at it, and she would talk quite
defensively about why she couldn't have done better at what

(33:39):
was going on for her at the time.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
In that conversation, she really experienced you sharing how you
feel as an attack on her as a big criticism
of her parenting. She had a really hard time hearing
you talking about how you feel without personalizing it as
an accusation, and and then she gets really defensive as

(34:02):
a result.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah, that was what was happening.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
It sounds like she was so busy defending herself that
she didn't seem to be very curious about what you
were trying to tell her. And I think your message
was I was in a lot of pain as a
child and it has affected me as an adult, and

(34:27):
she could not sit with that with you.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
That's right. I expressed it as carefully as I could,
and I tried not to lay blame at her door.
I didn't really tell her, and I haven't told her
about what I've carried through into my adult life and
some of the problems I've had. I've always kind of

(34:53):
shielded her from that, I.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Suppose, And maybe you weren't just shielding her, but you
were shield you because not only have you experienced this pain,
but then you experience more pain when you try to
talk to her about this and she shuts you down
with her own defensiveness. Yes, so it's a painful experience

(35:19):
to go to her and tell her this. You're already
in pain, but then having the conversation brings on more pain.
It doesn't bring relief, which is what we hope to
get from these conversations, connection, relief, understanding care.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
I felt like it was actually doing more harm than good,
and that's why I kind of shut it down.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Right And in that conversation, she demonstrated once again why
you have a hard time trusting her, because she doesn't
hear them or address them. She just experiences you'll distress
as as criticism and then comes back at you.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
What you've seen, as we said earlier, is that she's
not careful with your heart. And I think what you're
trying to do, and the reason that you wrote to
us is you're trying to be careful with your own heart.
You're trying to find a way to say, how can
I be careful with my heart and also have a
relationship with my mother? What would that look like?

Speaker 3 (36:28):
That's exactly it.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
So what does the relationship look like? Right now?

Speaker 3 (36:33):
So I speak to her on the phone. We live
in different towns, I speak to her on the phone
maybe once or twice a week for a short phone call.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Who calls who?

Speaker 3 (36:42):
I tend to call her. I've encouraged her to call me,
but she so she tiptoes around me a lot. She
seems to say, I don't want to bother you. I
don't want to bother you, Whereas I would like her
to call me, because then I'd feel like she was
taking an interest.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Talking to someone that you have a difficult relationship, once
or twice a week is frequent. What makes you want
to call her? What are you hoping to get from
those conversations? And are they nourishing in any way?

Speaker 3 (37:14):
They're not nourishing. I think a sense of obligation is
a large part of that. I often feel quite rejected
during those phone calls, because she talks a lot about herself.
I should tell you anything and everything going on in
her life, and then she kind of ask me one

(37:37):
or two kind of standard questions, has work or what
are you doing today? I don't feel like she's present.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
You said you call her out of a sense of obligation.
Does she have anyone in her life? Did she get remarried?

Speaker 3 (37:55):
She did? She has a partner of about twenty years now.
She has a few friends.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Do you have any relationship at all with this person
or is this person more similar to your mother where
it's more superficial.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
More superficial. He's a good guy, but he's a real
talker like my mother. I visited them at Christmas. I
wasn't sure whether to do it because I have a
difficult time there, but I did, and I realized between
the two of them, I'm left feeling sort of really

(38:26):
overwhelmed at how much they talk at me, and I
feel almost invisible.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Is your sister there at Christmas?

Speaker 3 (38:38):
She has a partner and a baby now, so she
was there after Christmas for a couple of days.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
You mentioned in your letter that your mom characterizes your
sister as the one who really struggled. Tell us a
little bit about why your mom believes that what she
was seeing with your sister that she wasn't seeing with you.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
It's strangerly because I feel we've had a lot of
very similar issues and got very different treatment.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Your sister is the one who seems to have found
a healthy relationship and the family the things that you're wanting.
Does your mom notice that that maybe you are struggling
with some things that your sister is not.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
No, I don't think she wants to see To give
you an example, you know, like I said earlier, I
would really like to meet someone and have a family
and feeling a lot of worry around that. And my
sisters had this baby. I'm very happy for her that,
you know, I'm feeling worried about myself. And I've heard
my mum say things like I'm so so relieved or

(39:43):
so happy to have a grandchild. And I just wonder
to she ever wonder about what my emotional experience is
at this time in my life, single in my late thirties,
wanting to meet someone. Does she wonder? Does she ever
think about it?

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Does your sister know how worried you are about this
and how lonely it is not having a partner right now.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
I've maybe touched on this with my sister. We haven't
gone very deep into it. Sort of want to respect
happiness with our own situation. God knows she deserves it.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Isn't it possible that this is both and that you
can be happy for your sister and also be feeling worried, lonely,
sad about the fact that you haven't found that yet.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, I'm aware that's possible for those two things to coexist.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
One thing that you have to keep in mind is
that when so many people have failed you so consistently
over your life, it's very natural that even when you
do find someone that you trust, like your sister, and
you've prepared that relationship, and you still hold back a
little bit because fully trusting is still scary. And it's

(41:01):
also possible that you've been trained by your parents to
first think about the needs and feelings of the other
person before your own. So you're worried about, oh, she
might experience that as you're saying that you're envious or something.
And I think it's important with your sister, she's demonstrated
that she can be there and she can hear it.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, none of that had occurred to me, And I
think you're right.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
I want to go back to your mom. What is
it that you are hoping for in terms of your
relationship with your mom at this point in your lives.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
That's the challenge that I'm struggling with because it's been
quite an intense couple of years where I've kind of
worked out what I was missing. I've been longing for
and what I perhaps feel like I was owed that
I didn't get. I don't know what to hope for.
I know i'd ideally want from a relationship with my mother,

(42:04):
but I don't know where to aim.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
You said something in your letter that I thought was
really important. You said, should I even try to have
this kind of relationship with her? Given her limitations? I
thought that was a very important question, because I think
when I ask what is it that you want with
your mother, where you go is what do I want

(42:28):
from the mother I should have had? So there's the
mother you have and the mother you wish you had,
and those are two different people, and you think you're
finally coming to terms with the fact that those might
be two different people. Some people spend their entire lives

(42:48):
trying to make the mother that they have into the
mother they wish they had, and they end up getting
repeatedly injured in every interaction because they leave feeling un
seen on, heard, invisible, not cared about, criticized, whatever it
might be, over and over again. And I wonder how

(43:12):
much grief work you've done around the fact that you
might be able to get some things that are nourishing
from your mom. If you're able to grieve the fact
that she is not the mom you wished for, there
might be things she can still offer you.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
No, I haven't done any grief work, and I think
I'm in that exact place that you've just described, a
feeling frustrated expectations and feeling kind of bruised by every interaction. Almost.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
It seems like with your father you were able to
say these are his limitations, but with your mother that's harder.
What is the difference for you in terms of the
way that you've sort of accepted that your father struggles
in the way that he does, but not really being
able to accept that yet about your mom.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
He asks me questions about my life. He takes an interest.
He tells me he's proud of me for things that
are meaningful to me, like writing that I've done. I'm
trying to carve out a new career as a writer,
and he's made really nice comments about the things that

(44:30):
I've done on that front.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Does your mom know about this the writing?

Speaker 3 (44:36):
Yes, and doesn't show the interest that would mean a
lot to me.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Has she seen anything that you've written?

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Some things? I had a restaurant review in a magazine,
like a big national magazine. I was quite excited about that,
and my dad made a kind of big fuss about it,
and my mom said she'd read it. But when I
asked her later, what did you think of that bit
about you? Because I'd referenced her in this article, she

(45:08):
didn't seem to remember.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
Tell us what that was like for you that moment
when you realized either she read it and didn't remember,
or she really never read it, And especially because it
was so personal it was something that you referenced about her,
I feel.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Like it touched a nerve and I've been in this
place before, or feeling like I really see you and
value you, my mother, And not only do you not
see invalidate me, but when I'm doing it for you,
so you seem to miss it.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
There are numerous ways in which you're still getting bruised,
as you said, by your mom. If you're calling twice
a week, she doesn't really need to because she's being
pursued by you she likes, but every time you call
and she doesn't, you get a little bruised as well.
And so part of the problem currently with your mum

(46:03):
is not just that you're not sure what are the
terms of relationship you can have. But it's also that
you're still getting bruised at the same time.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
That sounds spot on to me.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Earlier, you said that she does have some good qualities.
Can you tell us a little bit about those.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
She's had a career previously where she's been in psychiatric nursing.
She's really good at looking after I can't believe I'm
saying this. She can be very good at looking after
very vulnerable people in certain contexts.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
What are the good qualities that she has that relate
to you?

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Now I feel guilty having such a long pause.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Is this Why do you feel guilty?

Speaker 3 (46:54):
Because I think she's fundamentally good person, and I feel
bad not immediately being able to identify how she's good
to me. I know she loves me, she's giving practical help.
You know, she was welcomes me into her home.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
You know she loves you, because.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
I don't know. She hasn't really used that word. It's
not really something we used in our family a lot.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
But she's never said I love you.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
She very rarely says I love you. I think she
might write it in a birthday card. Sometimes she tells
me she cares.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
About me, and that's how she says it, I care
about you.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
She expresses that she cares for me. So I'm struggling here.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
And I see that. That's why I'm asking you these questions,
because you have this idea that somehow, and it's probably true,
that she loves you, but she has had great difficulty
communicating that to you and communicating it in a way

(48:10):
that feels loving. And so you're really scrounging here. I
love you in a birthday card rarely, Otherwise you're trying
to think of loving acts. You're saying, maybe she helped
you practically, which is a way of showing love as well.

(48:30):
And it's okay that you're being made aware in this
conversation and specifically with this question of what her limitations are,
so at the same time that we're looking at what
she has to offer, it's also good to be aware
of what she can't really offer, so that you don't get,

(48:50):
as you said, bruised every time you don't get those things.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
And I think, Benny, that what makes it difficult and
confusing for you is that seemingly she seems to be
able to offer other people that which you wish she
would offer you, she is really concerned about your sister's
mental health. She has compassion for her patients who are
struggling and suffering, and so you see those things and
you go, Okay, well you have that. Why aren't I

(49:18):
getting any of it? And I think that's the confusing part.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
That's very resonant. I think other people see her as
a very kind, compassionate person, you know, people love my mother,
and I think it was very confusing, and I think
for a long time I sort of felt like there
must be something without consciously thinking it, there must be
something wrong with me as the one not getting this.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Right, and that is very painful.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Do you have any idea why your mom was more
able to see what was going on with your sister
and her pain and she has been able to see yours.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
I don't know. I think she was struggling herself. She
was in a lot of financial distress when she was
a single parent. She was worried about my sister. She
was looking after her ex husband when he was in

(50:25):
the depths of alcoholism in a very involved way, and
maybe they just was in space and she couldn't face it.
That was the sense I got, was, don't you dare
give me anything else to worry about.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
And I think you heard that as a kid, and
I think you complied. That's part of the thing that
you are more resilient than your sister, that you don't
want to have that narrative because in the family it
got expressed. Well, if you are, then you have no
feelings that we have to worry about, which obviously it's
not the case. But I think you figured out really

(51:02):
really young that taking yourself to the psychiatrist at seventeen
by yourself, there's a real thread there with you of
I'll take care of myself. You don't have to because
I'm not getting it from you. And it's possible that
that's what she was picking up on as well. You
seem more self sufficient. You seem more like a wind
up kid that you just let them loosen. They go.
Now where they go was to the partying and all

(51:23):
kinds of other distressing places. But I think that your
sister probably came across as needing much more than you
when you were younger.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
That sounds right, And I am very self sufficient, you know,
I've been through a lot of really tough stuff and
done a lot of it.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Have you ever shared with her a vulnerability that wasn't
about the relationship, sought her advice about something that wasn't
about her, so she had clear runway to kind of
in that way.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
When I'm feeling fragile. I've tended to avoid her for
all the reasons we've covered. I ask her advice about
low level stuff because I think it's a good way
to bond with someone asking their advice. So I might
talk to her about decorating.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
For example, Okay, and how does she do that? So
she's happy to help. When it's about decorating, she's happy
to help.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Do you enjoy having that interaction with her? Or is
it more strategic I'm going to do this because it
gives us something to talk about. Or do you get
something out of it?

Speaker 3 (52:35):
I don't get anything out of it emotionally necessarily, but
I derive some I guess enjoyment from the fact with
having a conversation that kind of is back and forth,
like a more normal conversation for me. She's not in
broadcast mode.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Can I ask what you think might happen if you
didn't call her twice a week. Would you feel lonelier?
Would you have to sit with your grief a little
bit more.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
I have taken breaks from her at times. What has
it been like, honestly a relief. But the longer break
was after one of those very difficult conversations that kind
of went very badly.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
And then did you end up calling her to re
establish contact or how did that happen?

Speaker 3 (53:33):
We reestablished contact because I had some health problems and
she had VI in my sister, and I felt like
it was the time to kind of let her back
in because she was worried about me, and it was
nice to have her interest and concern. Actually, but I

(53:55):
do sometimes because I'm busy and because I think, let's
see what happened, and so I don't call her that
regularly all the time. I sometimes leave it and I
just see, let's see if she makes an effort.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
And picks up the phone.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
She tends to send me a message and say when
can we talk Melanie, And I tend to feel frustrated
because I want to have the kind of relationship with
my mother where we don't need to schedule times to
call each other. And I'm they're thinking, oh, we're close
enough that you can just pick up the phone if
it's a bad time. I'll just say it's a bad time.

(54:35):
I tried to say these kinds of things, so but
she will do the same thing every time. Which is
this very cautious text.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Message You've actually told her, I would love for you
to just call me when you feel like calling me.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
I maybe haven't said that I would love it. I've
said you can, And maybe that's an important difference it is.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
I'm thinking about what is it that you want at
this point from the mother that you have that would
feel good or nourishing. It might not be what you
had hoped for all these years, but she still is there,
and it sounds like there are some aspects of being

(55:14):
in contact with her that could potentially feel good to you.
What do you think those are?

Speaker 3 (55:22):
I would say just a little bit more of her
attention when I'm with her. I don't expect like a
total change of personality, but just a little bit more presence.
If I make the effort to go and visit her,
which is a day's travel, I'm there because I want

(55:46):
to connect with her, and if she could just stay
with me for a little bit longer and have a
conversation and not be flapping around the house doing sure
is doing Sometimes it feels like doing anything else other
than sitting and catching up with me.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
What if there's not a change in her but a
change in you.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
That is where I get stuck because that just isn't
a meaningful relationship to me. I don't seek out those
kinds of friendships, but there's not connection.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Well, I think when we talk about meaningful one thing
that has been missing has been authenticity. That you haven't
been able to show up with the truth of who
you are, and when you do, she falls to pieces.
That's seen on the beach. But what if you showed
up authentically and there was a change in you, not

(56:49):
expecting anything to happen differently with her, so that if
she falls to pieces, you don't have to put her
back together. What if you became more confident in your
truth because you're doing that with your sister, it sounds
like you're doing that in the relationships that you're pursuing

(57:10):
now that that becomes your mode of being in the world,
and that with your mom. You're not expecting her to
have a personality transplant, but you're showing up differently knowing
that she might or might not be capable of doing

(57:30):
something different. But that you're not depending on it. What
you are depending on is that you're going to do
something different, That all of these patterns that you still
have around her you're not going to uphold anymore because
they're not nourishing for you to be that way, to
be inauthentic, to hold back, to be invisible, That you're

(57:54):
not going to be invisible anymore, and she can do
without whatever she will, but you're not responsible for her feelings.
That your visibility you've focused on her.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
That sounds like something I would want to aim for.
I find when I'm in her home particularly, it's such
a knee jerk reaction with me that I feel like
I can't control it. I feel rejected and I withdraw.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
What happens when just you and her? If that happens,
go out for coffee, so she's sitting down, she can't
start busying herself with other things. She's sitting down facing
you for a chat. Does that ever happen? Do you
get more of attention when it does? If you do
that rather than sit in her house where she can
find a thousand things to busy yourself with.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
It is better. And for that reason, I've tried to
reduce the number of times I'm visiting her and encourage
her to come and visit me and then go for
coffees and meals and things in it is better. She
visited me a while ago and we had just really

(59:09):
horrible conversation, but before that we'd gone to this museum
that was a lot of fun and you know, we
were laughing.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
So you can have fun with her.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
I can have fun with her.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
So, Melanie, we have some advice for you, and we're
going to start off with your mom. One thing that
we talked about today was not about changing her, but
about changing you and how you react to her. And
one of the things that you've struggled with your whole

(59:49):
life has been showing up authentically because either you would
get hurt because you would get ignored, the subject would change,
you wouldn't get paid attention to, you would get a
factual question instead of an experience or feelings question, or
more recently, your mom would fall to pieces or get defensive.

(01:00:12):
All of those things might still happen, but we want
you to show up authentically anyway, because you get hurt
by not showing up. So you're already getting hurt, and
I know you're trying to protect yourself, but in protecting yourself,
you're actually doing the hurting. Because it's not protective. You

(01:00:33):
then feel lonely, abandoned all of those feelings. So we
want you to be able to just be yourself. And
it sounds like you're able to do that more with
your sister, but we want you to do that with
your mom as well. And part of that is going
to involve when your mom says, how's work, you can

(01:00:55):
tell her how work is, and you can say and
I'm also trying to date and I'm feeling really lonely
and I'm kind of worried about whether I'm going to
meet someone. And if she changes the subject, you can say, hey, Mom,
I really wish that I could talk to you about this.
When she texts you and says when can we talk,

(01:01:19):
you can actually say to her. We talked about this
distinction today, about the difference between you can call me anytime,
and I would really like it if you would just
call me. That would feel really good. I would love
to hear from you. I would love to know that
you're thinking about me. So all of these things that
you're not saying, we would like you to say, and

(01:01:41):
not worry about whether she's going to get defensive or
not respond in a way that feels nourishing to you,
or she's going to fall to pieces. If she does
fall to pieces, you can say, hey, Mom, it sounds
like you're not able to really talk about this right now,
so let's talk another time. And then you go take
a walk, you do yoga, you breathe, you call a friend,

(01:02:05):
you do whatever feels nourishing to you, without worrying about
my mom's falling to pieces and I didn't put her
back together. So we want you to try that in
your interactions with her this week. We want you to
be different, not expecting anything. And then here's the other part.
While you're doing that, we want you to notice any
moments of joy or even just fun that come up.

(01:02:28):
So with your dad, it was really nice when he
could join with you around your writing, even though you
have no expectations that he's going to connect with you
emotionally in the ways that you wish that he would.
With your mom, even with that example where you said
at the museum you had fun. Whatever it is where
there are these moments where there is something that feels good,

(01:02:51):
where I feel like I'm glad that I'm talking to
my mom. We want you to notice them, and we
want you to write them down, and we want you
to keep a journal. We just want you to start
looking for those a little bit more, and we think
you're going to see them a little bit more when
you're not being disappointed by her reaction. And to be clear,
you're always going to be disappointed by it. It's always
going to hurt, but it won't feel as sharp when

(01:03:15):
you are showing up from the adult place as opposed
to the wounded child place. And along with that, we
would like you to do some grief work, because you're
going to have to contend with the fact that your
mom is who she is and that you did not
get and probably will not get the kind of mothering

(01:03:37):
that you would have hoped for. There are groups for
this kind of loss. You can find them and maybe
join with other people who have had similar experiences, so
that you can really kind of let go of those
expectations by grieving it, not by shutting it down or
compartmentalizing it, which is what you've done, or drugs that
you used to do, or the not eating all the

(01:03:59):
ways that you tried to deal with it. We want
you to deal with it head on by really going
into that sadness and that grief so that you're able
to let it go more gently.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Two other quick parts. Number one, with your sister, we
would like you to have a chat with her this week,
and you're feeling stressed about being able to find someone,
and you really want to find someone and kind of
share that with her. We think that you've gotten so
much closer and there's still a little bit more closeness

(01:04:30):
that you can have with her, because even with her,
you're holding back a bit that again that habit from
childhood of I can manage me. I don't have to
mean on anyone that there's still some more to unwind
there With your sister, so she knows how you feel,
and maybe she realizes that, but it's different for you
to be able to say it and for her to

(01:04:50):
be able to hear it and respond hopefully in a
compassionate way. The last thing we'd like you to do.
We'd like you to do because we think it would
be really good if you could find other women, even
maybe slightly older women, who you could have friendships with
and get that experience, the one that you really never

(01:05:10):
had quite with your mom, and we think one of
the best ways for you to do that is to
find and join a women's writing group. You're trying to
become a writer. Writers need that support regardless, and get
to know the people in the group because people do
get friendly and close in a group. Your writing is
often very personal and you're sharing personal things, so would

(01:05:33):
like you to do that as well to validate the
new endeavor and to perhaps create the possibility of new
relationships of people that you can show up to authentically.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
It's a really nice idea.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
I can do that, and remember the bar for success
is you showing up authentically, not how your mom responds,
just how you do.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
We want you to treat yourself the way that you
were not treated growing up. We want you to treat
yourself with openness and compassion and kindness and authenticity. The
more you treat yourself that way, the more that's going
to be the people that you surround yourself with. And
if you can do it with your mom without the expectations,

(01:06:18):
you will be able to do it with other people
where there are expectations and they do meet them.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
We really look forward to hearing how this goes for
you and how it feels to you to show up authentically.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Thank you, and thank you guys very much for your advice.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
What I thought was really impressive about Melanie is that
she has already started this journey a couple of years
ago and has already made significant progress. She's challenging herself
in all kinds of ways, she's trying to set standards
in her dating, and she's really trying to recover from

(01:07:02):
this very, very difficult childhood and that I think the
missing piece has been so far this relationship with her mother.
So I'm really hopeful that this helps her because I
think she's been working on herself in all kinds of ways,
and I think this would really be the last piece
that she needs to really start tackling.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
And when you say the relationship with her mother, I
think what we're both talking about is really her relationship
with herself. Being able to grieve the relationship with the
mother and be able to be there for herself in
a way that her mother is not able to be
there for her, and then to also free herself up

(01:07:42):
to enjoy the aspects of that relationship so that she
does get something from that relationship, but she'll get the
much deeper nourishment from her other relationships that we are
encouraging her to pursue as well.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
You're listening to THEO therapists. We'll be back after a
short break.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
So we heard back from Melanie and here's what happened
with her this week.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Hi, Laurie and Guy. So I have a quick update
for you. I will just start writing with the authenticity
because that felt like the most important aspect of it
to me. I had a call with my sister and
I guess I kind of warmed up by sharing some

(01:08:44):
of my emotional experience around health problems I've had recently,
which have been very stressful and times I've been quite
upset and worried, and I think normally I realized I
would really kind of gloss over this, and I didn't,
and I shared it. And I also told her about
the loneliness thing and worrying about whether I'll meet someone

(01:09:07):
again for a relationship. So that felt good, and in response,
she opened up a bit more to me in that core.
So I wanted to say thank you for bringing that
to my attention that relationship could be further improved, because
it's really important to me. I've also been working on

(01:09:31):
it with my mum. I had a call with her
and I also shared this thing about feeling lonely and
increasingly lonely over the last year and wanting to meet someone,
and she said some things that were pretty comforting. Actually
they were fairly generic things, but it's the kind of

(01:09:51):
thing I like to hear on this issue, so that
was good too. Again, I've noticed on being more tack
in other areas. So today, for example, I initiated a
difficult conversation with my manager at work that i'd been
putting off for a while. And there is something I'm

(01:10:11):
thinking about with my dad as well. He's supposed to
be visiting me when I go to Europe for a
couple of months next week, and I've just had it
in my head that I really don't like being around
him when he's drinking. He can get a bit melancholy

(01:10:31):
and I don't like it. I mean, I'm not sure
I'm going to actually say anything to him, but I've
just said to myself, I'm not going to pretend to
enjoy that anymore, and I'm not going to kind of
sit around and watch it. And I think that is
more authentic. So I think I feel good. I feel
more optimistic, and I'm going to keep going. The grief

(01:10:52):
work and the women's group. I'm just going to put
on hold for a couple of months while I have
this nice trip to Italy, but I I've looked at
groups and I will schedule that for when i'm back.
Thank you. I really am so grateful for the time
that you gave me under your advice.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
What struck me about Melanie is that she's wanted for
so long to have an authentic relationship with the people
in her family, and within the span of a week,
she took some great risks and actually got some great
reward for taking those risks. I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
And the fact that she generalized our advice to do
that at work as well just shows how much you
really got that. I do hope she speaks up though,
to her dad when she's on holiday and when he's
there and if he's drinking. She has the awareness right now,
she says, I don't have to be present for it,

(01:11:57):
but I really hope she'll find the gumption to voice something,
because I think that would be very much in line
with what we're asking her to do.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Yeah, and you could hear there's some kind of shift
going on inside of her. You can hear it in
the way that she talked about these experiences. I love
that her sister opened up to her as well, when
she opened up to her sister, and I like too
that she got some comfort from her mom. Maybe it
isn't the perfect response, but it did offer her some comfort,
and again it was a first conversation. There's so much

(01:12:29):
room for this to grow. When she shows up as
her true self, it gives her so much more power
and so much more flexibility in all of these relationships.
So I agree with you. I hope she does this
with her father as well. And I do hope that
she joins a writing group with women, because I think

(01:12:50):
that that will give her even more places to practice
this authenticity and to do something that feels authentic to her,
which is writing. So for a weeks of science, I
think she did magnificently and I think that she is
on the path to do so much more. Next week,

(01:13:11):
we're in session with Anna and Chris, a young married
couple who came to us after Anna, who was pregnant
with their first child, discovered that Chris had been lying
to her.

Speaker 5 (01:13:19):
Well, they see tons and tons of messages to this
worker being asking things.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
Like hellis your day?

Speaker 5 (01:13:26):
Wow? Yes, it was platonic technically for me, it was
still hurtful because it felt like there is some sort
of emotional void being filled by talking to her.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please
help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
help people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Executive producer is Noel Brown. We are produced and edited
by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

(01:14:13):
Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
at our next session. Deotherrapist is a production of iHeartRadio