April 15, 2025 • 68 mins
This week we’re in session with Becca and Jake. Becca loves her husband Jake but worries about his angry outbursts toward their young children, and considers whether she should leave him to protect them. We help the couple talk about this impasse in ways they never have before.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a woman who loves her husband worries about his anger
toward their young children and considers whether she should leave
him to protect them.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It's not healthy for our daughter. You need to get
therapy or we're going to leave so that I can
protect her first.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
A quick note Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
The advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other
qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding
a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you
(01:09):
are agreeing to let ihelp media use it in pot
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names have
been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Hey Laurie, Hey Guy.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So what do we have in our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
So today we have a letter from a woman who's
having some difficulty in her relationship, and it goes like this,
Dear Laurie and Guy, I'm in a really difficult position
in a relationship that started off five years ago as
a spontaneous rulw'in in romance and has only mildly dampened
with time and two young children, a three year old
(01:47):
daughter and a five month old son. I am still
in love with my boyfriend Jake and enjoy spending time
together and as a family. The problem is that during
my second pregnancy and postpartum, his parenting style towards our
old has changed, and he is quick to lash out
at her verbally and emotionally. He is intolerant of her age,
typical boundary testing and tantrums, and I can see the
(02:08):
harm done by the way he handles this. Playing referee
and mediator between what feels like two toddlers is exhausting,
especially while caring for an infant. It's like I don't
have a partner to help share the load. His nasty
demeanor towards our daughter has made me think more than
once that I should leave him, But paradoxically, I feel
this will end up with him having more one on
(02:29):
one time due to a custody agreement where I will
be unable to do damage control and intervene. There's no abuse,
and I recognize the value of having time with their dad,
so sole custody doesn't seem realistic or healthiest. I've approached
Jake about couples counseling, him, getting anger management counseling, and
even let him know I was considering leaving. These resulted
(02:49):
in tears on his end and promises to try to
get better, but nothing is changed. I feel paralyzed, and
I'm not sure what arrangement would be best for the kids.
I also wonder if breaking up would be healthiest for me,
because if I'm worrying about the kids the entire time
they're with him, maybe it wouldn't be I would greatly
appreciate any help figuring this out. Sincerely, Becca.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, it's interesting because Becka says that there's no abuse,
but lashing out at children verbally is a form of
emotional abuse, so certainly can be when it's harsh and
it goes on over time. So I'm really glad that
Jake is actually joining us today because it sounds like
something we really need to talk to both parents about
(03:32):
to get an understanding of what's going on and why
and what can change there.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, exactly, emotional violence is abuse, and it has long
lasting effects and it can be very traumatic, especially when
it's ongoing. And when it's ongoing, we call that complex
trauma because it's not one event, it's multiple events happening
all the time. And it sounds like Jake realizes that
something needs to change, but he's having trouble doing the changing.
(03:58):
And that's why I think it's important that we're both
of them on.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Every day. We see in our offices people who've had
an experience in childhood in which their parents would yell
at them or speak to them very very harshly, and
they're very damaged by that. So we really have to
be very clear that how parents speak to their children
does have a big impact. It doesn't require physical abuse
to leave a scar. Let's talk to them.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So, Hi Becka, Hi Jake.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So we're glad both of you are here because this
is an experience that is going on between the two
of you, and I think before we get to the
problem that you wrote in about beck with your daughter,
we wanted to understand a little bit more about earlier
in your relationship and how you decided to have kids.
It sounds like you said it was a whirlwind. Everything
happened very quickly. And since we heard from you already, Becca, Jake,
(05:14):
why don't you tell us a little bit about your
experience of early in the relationship and then the first
pregnancy and first experience of being a parent.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
So none of it was planned. Actually, Becca called me
and sprung the news on me that she found out
she was pregnant. So that was a very big shock,
came completely out of left field.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
When you say it was a shock. Was it a
good shock, a scary shock? What kind of shock?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Scary? For sure? I didn't really think I was going
to possibly even have her have kids. It was something
that wasn't really thought about that much. I was all
about having fun cars, motorcycles, friends. Never really gave I
guess fatherhood a serious thought.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
How old were you at the time.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I was twenty five when we met, so you would
have been twenty nine.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Twenty nine, twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Jake, How did you come to terms then? Given this
with such a shock, you weren't even thinking you might
have kids. Now you find out you have one on
the way. Tell us how you adapted to that. What
was the process for you?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I don't really know what the process was. Just kind
of went with the flow. It was definitely scary the
entire time, you know, going from possibly never having kids
still all of a sudden, within the next nine months
or so, I'm going to have a little, tiny, little baby.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
How long had you known each other at that point
you or nine months? So, given how new the relationship was,
had the two of you talked about having a future
together or was that not even on the table at
that point in the relationship.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yeah, we definitely had the conversation of having a future together.
Becca's lease where she was living was coming to an end,
and so was mine, who were starting to discuss getting
an apartment together. I don't recall if that was before
after finding out about Isabella, but I did know going
into her line of work that we would potentially have
(07:19):
to be relocated at some point, and I was on
board from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Jake, it sounds like you really didn't think about a
future with kids. Becca. Did you think about a future
with kids, and if so, did Jake know that you
thought about a future with kids.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah. I actually initially had the thought that I would
have like four or five kids someday. When Jake and
I met, it was, as I kind of mentioned, kind
of like a whirlwind because we spent like pretty much
every day together for the first six months when on
all these adventures had a ton of fun. The idea
of having kids eventually like kind of came up in
(08:00):
a lighthearted way. Like we were looking over text messages
the other day and one was like, Uh, he'd message
me like, Oh, if we do have kids, they would
be Gerber babies. They'd be so cute. But we never
had like a serious conversation about it. And I think,
like from a relationship perspective, I think the first or
the second night we met, I told him that I
(08:21):
was in medical school at the time, and I was like, oh,
you know, in a few months when I match, I
have no control over where I go, so I don't
know if we should get into anything. And he was like, oh,
I'll follow you wherever you go. So I think there
was like a pretty intense connection early on.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So when you texted Becca about having Gerber babies together,
was there a part of you that thought maybe you
did want kids.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
I think if I was going to have them, it
would have been later on. Like I said earlier, I
was still having a lot of fun at the time.
I was living with a couple of my good friends,
working Monday through Friday and Surrey and Sunday's, having a blast,
going on guy trips here and there, and seriously thinking
about settling down with a family and children was definitely
(09:07):
way in the back of my mind.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Jake, So tell me about the discussion between the two
of you and you get that phone call, since you
were so blindsided by it, what was the discussion like
between the two of you about the fact that this
is happening and how you felt about it.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
It was scary, for sure, getting that information. I didn't
know the first thing about kids. I didn't have any
brothers or sisters. I was an only child. The closest
thing to being around a baby was my cousin's And
there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So Becca, tell us what happened between the two of you.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It wasn't something that we thought that deeply about because
I was on birth control, so I didn't really think
it was a possibility, and I was very faithful. I
had an alarm in my phone. Was not planning on
getting pregnant. So when I started having symptoms, I was
a and I was like, okay, let me just take
a test just to put my mind at ease. And
(10:05):
when it was positive, I know, I started crying. I
called my best friend and I was like, I don't
really know what to do. Should I tell Jake now
or should I wait until he comes to visit next weekend.
She had said, you know, if it was me, I'd
probably want to know as soon as possible. So I
called him and he was definitely really shocked by the news.
(10:25):
He's normally a very talkative person, and it was pretty silent,
but he said like, Okay, I just need a little
bit of time to think about this, but whatever you
want to do, And over the next couple weeks when
we talked, it just seemed like he was very much like, Okay,
ball's in your court, Becca, whatever you want to do,
I'm behind you one hundred percent. So I thought about
(10:47):
it and I decided, you know, I did want to
have multiple kids, and it might not be the most
ideal circumstance, but I really felt like I had a
great connection with Jake and could see a future together.
So we talked and he was okay with us kind
of moving forward deciding to keep the baby.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Did you understand how Jake felt or was the messaging
you were getting just whatever you decide, I'm here. But
did you understand more of all of the ambivalence and
terror that he was experiencing.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I don't think so. I don't think I knew that
he was scared. I thought there might be like some
remorse over like the loss of the life that he
was getting to live. I got definitely the remorse for
that part of his life, but I didn't know that
he was scared until today, Actually.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Jake, why didn't you share that with her?
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And she had a lot on her plate as it
was going through med school, and I guess it was
my burden to carry to deal with Definitely not one too.
I guess share my feelings and put my feelings out there.
Quite often I kind of bury them and just deal
with it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Is it still something that you feel hesitant to share
when you're having challenging feelings? Do you still hesitate to
share them with Becker? Even now.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
On occasion? I just I guess the word is suck
it up and deal with it would be the best
way to describe what Typically.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So it's a decision and it's a philosophy that you
have that one shouldn't share. It's better for you to
not let her know how you're feeling about things.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
I mean certain things. If it's a big enough issue,
yes I would share. But if it's something that's going
to blow over, or it's it's only a small thing,
then I'll just deal with it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So the question is whether it indeed blows over or
whether over time these feelings accumulate and then they come
out in other ways.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Yeah, there's definitely times where I blow up and it
comes out in anger. For sure. It's usually work related.
The stresses from work definitely add up. I think I
let my feelings no pretty well about work.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
You let them be known because you share them with BECO,
or because you blow up and then it becomes apparent
that something's bothering you.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I'd say probably a little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Jake, I'm curious about this idea that you have that
it's a burden to share your feelings with someone else
and that it's better if they just kind of blow over.
Was that something you learned earlier on in life.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Yeah, my family isn't. Definitely not some a family that
I guess shares their feelings all that often. Talking about
our feelings was definitely not something that ever happened.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Do you see the connection between not expressing your feelings
unless it's a big deal. Do you see the connection
between keeping all of those things in and the temper
and then blowing up and having a short fuse.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
I've always had a temper. I saw therapists quite a
few years ago for my anger, and in that.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Work, was it suggested that part of the internal pressure
you might feel that promotes. The temper might be related
to the fact that you don't have this release valve
because you keep things in unless they're really big.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
It's possible during therapy. The big thing that ended up
changing was me moving out. At the time, I was
still living at my parents' house, me and my dad
butt heads quite a bit, and moving out to get
out of that toxic I guess environment and being out
with my friends for the first time made a big difference,
a very big difference.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
But it was that that made the difference, not that
you learned to regulate those feelings a little better.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Correct Becca, how much did you know about what Jake's
talking about right now and the philosophy of I don't
want to burn people with my feelings and the misconception
that they'll just go away if I don't talk about them.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So initially, for the first like year, probably I didn't
know about it, and he was actually like very even keeled.
It would come out a little bit when we would
go to visit his family and he would say like,
oh me, my dad, but head sometimes even nowadays, like
I'll leave like water bottles that I've drank around the house,
(15:38):
And I didn't know until the past couple months that
it was something that bothered him because he doesn't bring
up those small things. So it's like I kind of
wonder sometimes, like what other things do I do that
bother him that he's just not saying anything about because
in my mind, I was like, oh, nothing about me
bothers this guy.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And he's laughing. So, Jake, it sounds like she's on
the right track here that maybe there are some other
things you haven't shared with her.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
It would have to come up at the moment. But
if she did something, I guess I can't think of anything,
like right off the top of my head, the water
bottles is just just a peppeeve of mine, just having
all these empty plastic water bottles the nightstand and one
day to put something in it and on her side
(16:28):
and there was like six empty plastic water bottles, and
why can't they just be put in the recycling?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
They're just And it was that moment that made you
bring it up with her, like it had to get
to the six empty water bottles in the nightstand.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
I don't really know how it was actually brought up.
It may have been somewhat recent where I cleaned up
I found a bunch of them, took them all out
and then to the recycling, came back in and there
was like three more sitting on the counter that she
had brought back. I don't know where she pulled them
out from.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The water bottles are a great exone because they're a
small thing and we're laughing about it, but it happens
a lot, and so that's when we talk about accumulating
these kinds of feelings. You can see that if you
count how many water bottles are left around, how often
it adds up to much more than just a pet peeve.
And that's why when you feel this accumulation of frustrations,
(17:21):
it is important to express and address it. I do
want to go to Isabella because I want to hear
Jake what that experience was like. The fear is very
very appropriate when you're having your first child, but were
you also excited? How did it feel when she was born,
when you were holding her. I'd like to hear about
your experience.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Yeah, it was exciting. As scary as it was, it
was nice. Had no idea what I was getting into,
but she was this perfect little thing. I have a
selfie that I took in the hospital holding her and
her eyes are open staring at the camera, and it
just yeah, it was a nice moment. I actually vividly
(18:02):
remember my dad. He was out in the waiting room
for quite a few hours once they found out that
the baby was coming, and I remember walking out Tom
telling them that she was here and just breaking down
a crying.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
And so these bursts of anger toward Isabella, they weren't
happening until your son was born, or were they also
happening periodically before he was born?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Periodically? I know she's just a toddler, but when she
knows better, she's sometimes will look at you and smile,
even though you tell her no, and she will just
look at you and smile and do it anyway, and
then she just tries me nuts.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Toddler's do that because that's how they learned. They test
the limits all the time to see what's allowed and
what isn't and it requires a lot of repetition, so
those limits have to be reinforced over and over again.
And when she looks at you and smiles, she's almost
like signaling you about to test the limit here, So
let's see what you do. Can you give me an example, Jake,
(19:05):
when you do have an outbust with Isabella? What does
that look like?
Speaker 4 (19:08):
It's yelling? I get loud, I get very frustrated and
say what Instead of just saying I need you to
clean these up? I would just say that out a
much louder yelling volume. I don't like messes, and when
there is a big mess, that frustrates me, and I
(19:28):
will say what the and start cleaning it up? Why
did you do that? I don't have a sensor, and
I would say probably what the f? Why did you?
Why did you do that? And just very angry manner.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And how does she react when you yell at her
like that?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Sometimes she he just gets quiet and sits there. There's
been other times where she's laughing, which gets me even
more frustrated. And then there's other times where you could
definitely tell she feels guilty or upset about it, and
then she'll start crying and I continue to be mad
in this situation. And then once the situation has been resolved,
(20:21):
whether it's cleaning it up or whatever the case is,
is when I get out of seeing red and take
a step back and realize she's just a toddler, and
I will hold her and give her a hug and
tell her I'm sorry, and then she'll it's okay.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You have this phrase rupture and repair, and so when
there's a rupture, whether that's in a relationship between adults
or between parents and children, it's not just that a
rupture happened, But then how does it get repaired? And
it sounds like you attempt to repair it with Isabella,
But the problem is that it happens frequently enough that
(21:06):
she might not trust the repair, and she might not
also be able to really tell you how she feels
in those moments. So she says it's okay, almost to
make you feel better, but I'm guessing that it has
a bigger effect on her and that it's probably not
so okay with her. And so I'm wondering about when
(21:30):
this first started happening, and Becca, you saw it and
you told Jake that you weren't comfortable with it. How
did those conversations go in the very beginning, and then
how have they evolved over time?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
So in the beginning, I wouldn't talk to him about
it in front of Isabella. Sometimes it would be like
I would hear him yelling, and I would come from
another room and then help to kind of facilitate the
repair part. And then at a leader point, I would
talk to Jake and be like, hey, like that wasn't okay.
That probably really hurt her, and he would say, you know,
(22:08):
I know, I'm sorry it happened. I'm gonna work really
hard and I won't.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Do it again.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
What did that mean? Work really hard? You mean Jake
on your own or going to therapy.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
On my own? Try to think before reacting.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Did you ever get any tools for that from your
earlier therapy or just maybe some research you did or
a book you read or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
No, you try counting.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, I do have a repriver so often just take
a deep breath and count to maybe ten and trying
to de escalate.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Does that help at all?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Sometimes?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And so when you hear Becca saying this, what is
it like for you? When Becca brings this up to
you that she's uncomfortable with the way that you're react
acting to Isabella frustrating?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
I know I need to change for sure. It's disheartening,
you know, knowing that I'm not making I guess becka happy,
and I know the damage it's potentially doing to Isabella.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
What is the damage you think it might be doing
to Isabella.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
The mental damage she might have later in life. I
have noticed recently, I feel like, very recently, that she's
starting to have a little bit of a temper and
reacting to scenarios the way I would react to scenarios.
And I have actually told her not to be like
me in these scenarios, to be more like mom.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Right, But that doesn't really work when you're modeling for
her that it's okay to react in anger because here
I do it frequently. Then you can say, oh, you
shouldn't do it, But are you actually teaching her right?
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Which And this is something I've just noticed, probably within
the past two weeks. That was a big eye opener
for sure.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
What happened in the last two weeks.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I personally have noticed how she's been reacting to certain scenarios.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And what does that change for you that you noticing
that she's imitating you?
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Sad to say, but that's so far nothing?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Why not?
Speaker 4 (24:23):
I don't have an answer for that. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You butt heads with your father? Did your parents yell
at you?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
No?
Speaker 4 (24:32):
No?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
No.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
The reason my dad and I butt head so much
is he loves getting under people's skin, Like if he
knows something is bothering me, he will just dig and
dig and dig until I explode.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So you're the one who explodes, but he does, yes, and.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Then once I explode, then it's made him yelling at
each other.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So the anger management that you felt you needed in
your early twenties when you went to a therapist? What
precipitated that? What was going on in your life where
you felt like, I really need to understand this better?
Speaker 4 (25:07):
A previous relationship set of if I didn't do something
about it and see a therapist, then she was leaving.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
And did you agree that maybe it was problematic what
was going on? Or did you just go because you
didn't want to lose her? I just want so you
didn't think it was really problematic at the time like
you do now, because now you're saying you do.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Are you saying that now, Jake? Do you think that
it's problematic now? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
What's different between now and then? Before you didn't think
it was problematic, but now you do. What's changed for you?
Speaker 4 (25:45):
The kids? Seeing the way Isabella is reacting to things now,
it's definitely the kids.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Does this happen with your son too. I know he's
five months, but does it happen with him at all?
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, crying, crying is just just gets under my skin incredibly.
And Isabella was she very rarely cried. She was just
always this happy baby. And then Dean, he was just
(26:20):
constantly crying and it was definitely frustrating.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's interesting, Jake, because the two things that you've mentioned
that really frustrate you are crying and messages, and you
have a baby and a toddler and a wife with
a what about a problem? So it's really it's a
deadly combination. And I'm talking about it, but truly, it
(26:48):
seems that if those are the sensitivities, you know, there's
just fertile ground to be frustrated a lot. Now, you
said that you do take it seriously. Now, you do
recognize now that it's a problem, and recently so I'll
give you that. But even in the recent couple of
weeks where it's occurred to you more, have you thought
of doing any research, you know, Lorios, if you've read
(27:10):
any books or read any articles, is that something you've
thought about acquiring tools? Because part of the problem you
have is you have no tools. You have the you know, count,
but that's it. Otherwise it's just strain and hope it
doesn't come out, which is not a tool. Have you
thought about looking for tools? Discuss that with Beckap perhaps
over the past couple of weeks, I have not.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I'm thinking about what these conversations might look like between
the two of you, because it sounds like they've come
up quite a bit. You're nodding, so, yes, okay. Sometimes
when we have a lot of feelings, we go numb.
And what I'm hearing with you, Jake is that there's
almost like something isn't going in because I imagine that
(27:53):
maybe you go a little bit numb. And people are
confused about numbness. Often they think, if I go numb,
I'm not feeling anything. But numbness isn't the absence of feelings.
Numbness is a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.
We can't process all the feelings, and we go numb.
I'm wondering, Becka, from your perspective, what is it like
(28:15):
when you're trying to talk to Jake about this? And
in your letter you said you've tried various ways of
setting boundaries around it, like we should go to therapy,
or you should go to anger management, or I might
leave you. So Jake, you're saying you go numb in
these conversations pretty much, that you don't really have a
sense of what you're feeling when she's talking about it,
(28:38):
and Becca, I'm wondering for you, what is it like
when you're talking to Jake and it seems like maybe
it's not being received by him.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Invalidating and really frustrating because I feel like there should
be an emotional reaction and that there should be some openness,
and I suspect that he is really motivated deep down
and is hurt by the fact that he's like lashing
out and potentially damaging Isabella and our relationship. But when
(29:15):
I don't get anything out of him except for I'll
try harder, it hurts. It makes me feel like he
doesn't care. And then I actually like didn't know about
the therapy they had gone to before, and it's just
a little hurtful to hear that, like that person saying
that she might leave would lead to him being like, Okay,
(29:36):
I'm going to go get therapy, but me saying it's
not healthy for our daughter. You need to get therapy
or we're going to leave so that I can protect her.
Resulted in like, I'm not going to get therapy. I'm
just going to try harder.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
You know, I'm looking at your face, Jake, and I
see so much coming across your face right now. Because
I was looking at your face, there were these conflicting
emotions running through you, and they probably lasted a millisecond
because you don't want to feel them, so you have
become very skilled at getting rid of them as soon
(30:14):
as they show up. And on the one hand, I
could see the pain. I could see the pain of
I'm hurting these people that I love. I could see
the pain of I don't want to lose my wife.
I don't want to damage my daughter. And I imagine
too that there's a part of you that's hard to acknowledge,
(30:35):
which might be this fantasy which I don't think you
actually want to come true. But sometimes we have fantasies
about these things when we feel really trapped and stuck,
and maybe it would be a relief, Maybe I would
get that freedom that I really wanted because now I
have two kids. And in your letter back you were
saying it really escalated during your second pregnancy and the
(30:58):
postpartum Now there's really a lack of freedom with the
two young ones, and that there's a part of you,
Jake that doesn't know what to do with this real need,
and it's a legitimate need to have some kind of freedom,
especially when this came at a time in your life
when you weren't expecting to have to give it up.
(31:20):
And you're nodding, so I can see that that's true too,
And it's okay to be able to talk about all
the different ingredients here and not just what you think
Becca wants to hear, but what the truth of your
experience is, because I actually think that will help you
to manage your anger differently. And so I'm wondering if
(31:42):
we could try a little exercise here right now where
you guys can talk about this a little bit differently.
Are you guys willing to try that?
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, okay, So if you can face each other and
if you can hold hands with each other, I wonder
if Becca you can show Jake that you can tolerate
the truth of his experience, all of it. So, Jake,
I'm wondering if you could tell Becca a little bit
about the conflict that you're experiencing of on the one hand,
(32:16):
wanting to be a really good father and a really
good partner, and on the other hand, feeling really ripped
off and feeling like sometimes it just feels really unfair,
and sometimes you need a break, and you don't quite
know what to do with all of these feelings, and
you don't even know how to talk to Becca about them.
Can you share whatever's going on with you and your
(32:38):
own words with her? And Becca, I just want you
to breathe through this. You don't need to respond, You
just need to be present so that you can open
up a space between you for the truth.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Like we've discussed, I do have me time ever since
the new job. I don't ever get any time. I
love you guys, and we do have a lot of
(33:13):
fun together. There's definitely times that I definitely want to
run away, There's no doubt about it. But I will
always be here. I don't ever want to go away.
I love you, guys.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Could you say jink a little bit about how it
feels in those moments we want to run away?
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Talking about feelings. One thing I don't feeling.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I want to reframe that for you a little bit,
because I think that you're not comfortable doing it, but
I don't know yet whether you like doing it, because
I have a feeling that once you get comfortable talking
about your feelings, you will like it very much because
it will help you to have a place to go
with them instead of doing what you're doing with them now.
(34:10):
And Becca, watch out because he might start talking a
lot about his feelings in the future once he realizes
how much he likes it.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
The times that I want to just run away, I
think of the days having fun, what could have been
without kids, the traveling, the adventures. I feel like my
time was cut short.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
And it.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Just wasn't ready to give up the nights out with
the boys and the trips.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
When Isabella is frustrating you and you have those thoughts
about but I got rubbed of this. You're juxtaposing feeling
really free and liberated and fun, but you're juxtaposing that
with feeling in that moment. What is it trapped? Is
it suffocated? Is it stressed? Is it sad? I'm just
(35:18):
giving you different words, but I want you to try
and use your own words to describe the feeling.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
It's sad. Was the one thing that you said that
definitely definitely feel sad, sorry for myself, self pity. I
know I'm being selfish, that's a judgment. But going back
to the feelings you've talked about feeling sad, I'm associating
(35:47):
the sadness with grief. That you're grieving this idea of
this part of your life that you didn't get to
really complete in the way you wanted to. And that
sometimes because you aren't able to really talk about the grief,
(36:08):
when something is right in front of you that reminds
you of what you lost, that that triggers that big
reaction in you. Is that what happens for you. I
don't know what happened when I just said that. I
(36:30):
was just thinking that I love you well, not you.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
But do you see how you got distracted from the feeling? Yeah, yeah, yes,
you said sometimes it frustrates you that when you're yelling
at Isabella she laughs. And when I just made you
a little bit uncomfortable by asking you to think about
your feelings, you laughed. So I want you to think
(36:56):
about that next time you're yelling at Isabella and she laughs.
It means she's uncomfortable. She's feeling something but wants to
get rid of it, just like you're doing right now.
So let's go back for a second to that feeling.
I imagine that there's some grieving that you haven't done
(37:18):
around the loss of this version of this time in
your life. That would look a little different. And when
Isabella does something, when the baby is crying, that's a
stark reminder of what you have lost, and so I
imagine that it brings up those feelings of grief and loss,
(37:41):
and you get really angry because these are unprocessed feelings
of grief and loss. So when you said sad, I
can see that because that's grief. That's the sadness. So
you're nodding to that. Does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yes, Jake. I think part of what blocks you from
talking to Becca about these feelings about feeling the loss,
about feeling sad is what you said afterwards, Well, that
feels selfish. And I'm wondering if you realize that Becca
must be having some of the same feelings because her
(38:24):
days of independence were also cut short in that way.
Has it occurred to you that these might be feelings
she's having as well to some degree, No, it.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Did not, and they might not be exactly the same feelings,
but she probably has her own experience of parenthood where
it's very challenging, especially if she's still in medical school
or doing residency or starting out. Becca, can you talk
to Jake a little bit about the various experiences you've
(38:57):
had as a new parent.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah, So, in Isabella I was born, I had this
idea of kind of the mom. I was going to
be a super mom, like that I could handle residency
and I could be this great mom and do both
things one hundred percent. And it's been tough realizing that,
(39:23):
like there is a version of myself in residency and
like at work that I could have been if I
didn't have kids, and like a level of devotion I
could have thrown myself in. And at the same time,
like if I didn't have residency or commitment to like
this line of work, there's a version of myself that,
(39:44):
like a mom version of myself I could be for
Isabella and for Dean, and kind of feeling like I'm
always falling short in both places. That's been been really tough.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Jake, what is it like for you to hear that
she also struggles with imagining these different versions of her
life if she didn't have kids, how she would perform
at work, if she didn't have work, how she would
be as a parent. Did you know that you had
that in common, these fantasy lives that you think about sometimes, No,
(40:20):
I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
I want you to be happy. So it's definitely very
sad to hear that you also have I guess this
conflict or battle of what could be?
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Is it also a little bit of a relief to
know that both of you, like many new parents, have struggled.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah. Yes, most new parents have moments where they wish
there was an eject button that they could smick because
it's just so much and it's not unusual and doesn't
mean they don't love their kids. It just means it
can be really overwhelming. And the thing, Jake, is that
(41:06):
most of the feelings that you're described being are normative.
There's nothing unusual about them, especially when a pregnancy is unplanned.
But I think there's a way in which you feel
that you shouldn't have these feelings, or it's selfish of
you to have these most natural of thoughts. And so
(41:26):
I'm glad you say that you feel this relief to
hear that Becca has her version of those feelings, as
do most parents, and therein is the benefit of sharing
your feelings. You get to find out that your partner
has similar ones and that there's something that actually unites
you in these feelings rather than divides. You're not that
(41:49):
I'm saying that, but is that how it feels to you? Yes?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, Becca? Can you tell Jake what it was like
to hear all of that from him earlier?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Refreshing? So I feel like it's a treat whenever I
get to hear kind of like that deep of stuff
from you.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Did you feel that he was selfish when you heard
that or what was your impression of his fantasy of
sometimes wanting to hit the check button as Guy said.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
I didn't think it was selfish. I could like identify
with it kind of like mirrored like feelings that I've
had before. And I feel like, you know, Jake would
be somebody safe that I could talk to that about
not have to worry about being judged, And I'm glad
to know that he can say that to me, that
we're both feeling that sometimes.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Jake, have you ever shared this kind of feeling with anybody,
not just about having kids, but something that felt really
shameful to you, or something that made you feel not
good about yourself.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
So this is a new experience.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, yes, I think part of what might hold you back, Jake,
is quite quite basic in what it is, And I
think that is that you have trouble, like many people,
identifying what you feel, but specifically putting a name to it.
It was difficult for you to come up with those
(43:18):
names because it's a mush of feelings. You know you're
feeling something, but you're feeling it in your chest and
your throat and your shoulders and your stomach and you
it's difficult to tell which is which and what is what.
But the more practice you have naming those feelings, the
more fluent you get at being able to do that.
And I think that it's one of the things that's
(43:41):
been holding you back that you just worry that you
don't have the words. You might not be able to
identify exactly what you're feeling, but even if you can,
it's hard to put words.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Yeah, you nailed it, not having the words. What you
just said was perfect, Becca.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
How confident do you feel with your ability to name
your feelings, identify them, speak about them, label them.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
I feel very comfortable. I know some people for kids,
they want them to be like very smart, so they'll
work with them on like math and letters and stuff.
But for me, it's like identifying emotions. So with Isabella,
like she can tell you why she's feeling how she's feeling.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
So what does Isabella say after these incidents happen where
Jake is angry with her? Does she talk to you
Becca or does she talk to you Jake about what
she feels? Does she have the vocabulary to do that?
I would say yes, what does she actually say?
Speaker 4 (44:48):
She knows when I'm upset with work, and she will
come over and actually tell me how I'm feeling. Right, See,
you're up set, daddy, maybe a hug will make you
feel better, and she'll give me a hug.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And on the one hand, that's very cute because she's little,
and it also shows empathy. But it's also possible that
she does that because she knows that when Daddy is upset,
Daddy can get really mad. Yeah, and so I want
you to see both sides of that. That she may
feel like she needs to regulate you so that you
(45:27):
don't lash out at her makes sense, And so I'm
wondering maybe with beccasins Becca, you say you're a little
bit more fluent with feelings. Does she ever say to you,
I was scared of daddy, or I'm really mad at daddy,
or I was really sad? Does she ever talk about
(45:49):
her experience of being yelled at with you?
Speaker 3 (45:52):
Yeah, all three of those. She usually doesn't spend a
lot of time talking about it, but she'll like, I
was sad when Daddy yelled at me, and I don't
know why he yelled at me. And we'll kind of
talk about, oh, this is where Daddy is coming from,
and this is where you were coming from, and you know,
daddy's taking some space right now because that's how he
(46:15):
calms down to feel better or what would feel good
for you. And then I'll end up telling Jake how
Isabella is feeling, and then he'll go and do the
like repair work you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Do you ever say to Isabella that even though Daddy
was upset, that it's not okay that he yelled at her.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
I do, but I don't know how much of that
gets through. And I'll tell her like, she's not responsible
for Daddy getting mad, and but she's still a good
kid and everybody gets mad.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Sometimes there's another way to deal with her anger when
we get mad, that we can use a different voice
to express what we're upset about.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
I'll have to keep that in my toolbox to say
next time.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Jake, Now that you're seeing how much of an impact
this has on Isabella, not only now, but might have
on her as she grows up, I'm wondering when Becka says, hey,
we could go to therapy, or you could do some
anger management, or even I don't know if we can
(47:26):
stay if this is going to go on, does like
all three things have happened? What do you think is
keeping you from doing something that might be helpful, not
just for the other people, but mostly for you?
Speaker 4 (47:44):
Lazy? If I want to put in the work.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
I don't think people are really lazy. I think that
people avoid things and then they look like they're lazy.
So I'm gonna say it a different way. Why are
you avoiding dealing with this given how high the stakes
are and how.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Long you've been dealing with it.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
I keep telling myself that I can fix it myself,
but you know that.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's not been the case. So that's again a way
that we avoid as we lie to ourselves. It's really
easy to tell ourselves what we want to hear, so
we can avoid doing the thing that we need to do.
I have a theory about why you might be avoiding this,
and that's because of that conflict we were talking about
(48:33):
earlier between the part of you that feels ripped off
and the part of you that wants to be a
part of this family. And I think that there's a
part of you that isn't even in your awareness, that
feels like if I go deal with this, then I
(48:55):
am giving in to this life, and I don't get
to hold on to any part of that other life life.
At least when I'm acting out, that part of my
life is alive, and I want to suggest that there
might be other ways to keep that other part of
(49:15):
your life alive and also do things in your life
that might give you more balance.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
I know within the next few months things are going
to get significantly better. We get to move back home
with all of our friends and family. Where we are
now we have no support systems. We'll have grandparents only
fifteen minutes away instead of two hours away, friends only
five ten minutes away instead two hours away. And I
(49:49):
already know the job I'm now. I am resigning from
this position because it's just not healthy having our friends
and family and going back to the job that I
enjoyed doing a lot of that will change.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's definitely will And being without a support system is
specially difficult when you have two young kids and a newborn.
But Jake, I wanted to offer you another theory about
why you might not have sort help.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
Well.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Number One, you did in the past, and it doesn't
sound like you walked out with a lot of tools
from that experience. And a lot of times when people
and especially men have issues with anger management, they think
that they just need to learn to hold it in better,
that they just need to get that better cork that
(50:46):
will stuff it in and then it won't come out.
And right now you don't know how to get a
better cork. It's very difficult to understand a nonlinear relationship
between talking about your feelings of frustration, loss of the bachelorhood.
How is that related to you know, me having the
(51:07):
temper or keeping it in about the water bottles or
the messes you know? And I think that part of
what makes you hesitate is you just don't understand or
know what possible tools can people give me that will
actually help me other than me just needing the willpower
to not explode. And I'm wondering if that's something that's
(51:28):
going on with you that you just don't quite know
what that help could even be, or that doesn't quite
make sense to you, And so it feels it will
just come down to me needing to not and I'm
trying to not anyway, So what else can I do?
Speaker 4 (51:42):
Yeah, I can definitely relate with that, especially the core scenario.
That's how I feel like I just need to try
harder to suppress the anger back up.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
You've talked about thinking you don't know how long you
can keep going in this situation. Where are you with
that right now?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I feel conflicted because I want to believe that, like
once we move back and there's more balance, that everything
will get better. But I feel this like ambivalence because
for me, I want to stay with Jake and I
want us to be a family and be together forever,
(52:33):
and I'm happy, But then as a mother seeing the
impact that it has on Isabella, it makes me feel
like to do what's best for her in the times
when the anger does get pretty bad that it'd be
better if, like Jake was just like a part time parent.
(52:58):
And I feel like those two parts of me fight
a lot.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Can I ask you, Jake, if we flashed forward several decades,
Isabella and Dean are really struggling in their lives. They're
struggling with how they feel about themselves. They're struggling and
then their friendships and they're romantic relationships. They may be
(53:25):
numbing themselves with certain things like drugs or alcohol. Maybe
they are able to tell you you hurt us constantly
when we were growing up. How would you feel about
your life choices several decades on that were the case.
Speaker 4 (53:48):
Horrible?
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Do you understand that that's the potential path you're on?
Speaker 4 (53:53):
I do now.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
So, Becca and Jake, we have some advice for you,
and it's in several parts. Part one is this. There's
this wonderful tool that we love called the feelings Wheel
or the emotions Wheel, and it's just that it's a
wheel with a lot of different emotions on it. We'd
like you to print one out. They're very easy to
(54:21):
find online, and we'd like you every evening when you
have literally five minutes each of you take turns. Jake
would like you to start and just talk about your
day and name at least five feelings that correspond to
your narrative. You don't have to know them ahead of time.
You just look at the wheel when you know what
you're feeling inside but you can't articulate it. You look
(54:43):
at the wheel, and just when I gave you multiple shows,
you said, yes, this one, Yes, this one, that's how
the wheel functions. You look at it and go, oh, right,
it's this. But would like you every day to have
five minutes where each of you just talk about each
other's days, using and naming your feelings. So that's the
first one. The second assignment we gaveing you is, Jake,
(55:05):
we want you to google two articles about the effects
of yelling at your kids and find it from reputable
sources the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and we'd like you to
read just a couple of short articles and then tell
Becca what you've learned from them, so that you can
have a conversation and have discussions about the impact of
(55:27):
yelling at your kids. So that's not something you're ignoring
that you're really talking about as you're trying to control
the anger. What is the impact of yelling at your
kids at young ages, and we think.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
That that'll give you a good foundation for the next exercise,
which is that Becca, we would like you to write
a letter, as if it's decades in the future, from
Isabella and Dean to Jake about what their lives are
(56:01):
like and what the effect of this yelling has had
on them if it continues the way that it does,
and we're going to imagine for this letter that it did.
And please don't try to protect his feelings, because Isabella
and Dean will not try to protect his feelings. Kids
who are yelled at will be very clear, usually later
(56:26):
in life, about the impact that it had on them.
And Jake, what we would like you to do is
write a letter back when you get that letter to
your children who are now adults, about what you wish
you had done differently, if indeed you do, and really
be open and honest, just as open and honest as
(56:48):
you were with Becca in the conversation today about other feelings.
We want you to be really open and honest with
them about how it feels to you, knowing that this
is how they feel as adults. Given that the yelling
didn't stop and the good news about this is it's
not actually happening in the future. You have a chance
(57:10):
to do things differently should you so choose. And the
last part is that we would like you to learn
a little bit more about anger management because it sounds
like you don't really have tools that have worked for you.
(57:33):
So we would like you to join an anger management group.
And I know that your time is limited, so there
are also lots of online options where you can just
zoom into the group, and we would like you to
give it a try to see what it's like to
hear other people talk about their experiences, because you're definitely
not alone in this. Lots of people had modeling where
(57:55):
they didn't know there was another way to manage their feelings,
and often they couldn't I identify their feelings, which is
something that you noticed in our conversation today that sometimes,
like I said, you just don't know what the words
are for the feelings. And the one thing that's really
easy to access is anger. So if we can get
underneath that, you might be able to have some tools
(58:20):
that will be helpful for you and maybe that'll help
you take away some of the shame around it, realize
you're not alone, and then get some really good information
about what might be helpful.
Speaker 4 (58:32):
Okay, thank you, Marian guy.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Some couples can't do what they did, which is talk
about something that's really difficult and then still stay connected.
And they were still holding hands even when some of
the content was difficult to hear. They stay present for
each other. And I think the challenge for Jake is
really the dissociating that he does. He knows intellectually that
(59:08):
what he's doing is damaging to his children, and then
he comes up with all kinds of reasons why it's
not a priority for him. And I think that when
he gets more in touch with his feelings, and I
think really not being able to avoid what the future
might look like. Because when I brought that up at
the end, he finally said, yeah, I get it. We
(59:30):
don't know if he really gets it, but it was
the first time that he acknowledged that.
Speaker 4 (59:34):
He does right.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
And I also agree that he kind of knows intellectually
that it's a problem. But that's why we gave in
that research assignment, because he really needs to be clear
that it is a problem. It's not a maybe, it's
not a oh, you know, I was okay somehow.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah, it's not just the tone when we talk to
our kids, is the content as well, and he was
saying that he says what the f to her, and
as parents we all have times when it wasn't our
finest parenting moment. When it's consistent in the way that
they're describing, it's really important for him to understand the
effect that it's going to have on his children, and
that it is having on his children.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
So, guy, we heard from Becca and Jake, and I'll
be curious to hear how that went for them.
Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Hey Louri, Hey guy, this is Beca and Jake.
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
We're getting back in touch. Just to update you on
the assignments you gave us last week for.
Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
The feelings chart. We went over that every night and
I feel like it sparked a lot of good conversations.
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Yeah, I feel like it added some depth to our conversations,
and I did notice that Jake just kind of in
normal day to day conversations talked more about feelings, especially
other than just anger and frustration. So I can already
see that paying off for the second one, which was
looking up the effects of yelling, but I feel like
(01:01:14):
Jake it was difficult for him to confront that. I
felt like he avoided it most of the week and
it lead to some nagging on my end. He handed
up finding a really good series on YouTube that talked
about it, and I think it really piqued his interest
to keep looking for more. So he suggested doing this
five day stop Yelling at your Kid's parenting challenge. So
(01:01:35):
we're starting that feeling optimistic about that. For the next assignment,
where I was writing the letter from Isabella and Dean's perspective,
it was challenging because there were so many different effects
that the yelling can have, so kind of encompassing everything
in that was a little difficult. So I did send
(01:01:57):
that over to Jake, and I think it was tough
for him to read and might not have been the
most impactful, Like I wonder if he needs something a
little more concrete and tangible.
Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
It was difficult for me to put myself in the
headspace of pretending to be in the future and it
didn't really resonate for me. As for the anger management classes,
I'm not quite ready to jump into that yet, and
I know I need to find coping mechanisms, which led
me to a YouTube channel, so I'm going to start
(01:02:36):
there and see how that works for me.
Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Overall, this has created some moments of conflict and a
relationship that weren't there before, but I feel like it's
definitely an area where we can grow, and the couple
of things that have happened since then, it's really helped
me be more empathetic to see where Jake's coming from
and where his mind might be at because I have
a better idea now. One of the quotes that really
(01:03:03):
stuck out to us in the parenting resource we were
looking at was by Maya Angelo, and it goes, do
the best you can until you know better, than when
you know better, do better. So I feel like at
this point we're just getting to a place where we're
building our knowledge and hopefully that'll lead to doing better
in the future. Thank you again for all of your
(01:03:25):
help and for taking the time to work with us
on this.
Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
Thank you bye well.
Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
That reinforced a feeling I had during the session that
Jake was really starting from square one when it came
to this understanding of how yelling at the kids can
impact them, how his being in touch with his own
emotions or being able to express them or not is
(01:03:54):
impacting him. He really didn't see that connection at all,
and now he's odd thing to create some kind of
connective tissue in his mind between these things, primarily by
using the feelings shot. But I am a little disappointed
that he didn't take more ownership of the anger and
take more ownership of some of these tasks and really
(01:04:17):
dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
I think when we do these sessions, we want to
hold the hope for their growth, and at the same
time it can be disappointing. And I think in this case,
when other people are affected, like children, it's really hard
to have patience for the change to happen because you
(01:04:40):
know that as this is going on, this is really
affecting the children. And I think Becca is perhaps in
a little bit of denial too, because she said this
week brought up some conflict between them that she didn't
know was there, and yet it seemed like it had
been there or she wouldn't have written that letter to us.
(01:05:01):
And I noticed too that she did most of the
talking for Jake, and so it seemed like she was
sort of driving this and hoping that something would change,
but it's really going to have to come from a
place of Jake wanting to change. And there's something going
on with Jake where he's sort of compartmentalizing things where
he said I couldn't really get into the space of
(01:05:23):
that letter from the future. He's always got a reason
that something isn't going to work in terms of helping
him to grow and change in this area. And I
noticed too that they sometimes laugh through this, and I
know it's uncomfortable laughter, but it feels like something is
going to need to happen, not just with Jake but
also with Becca where they're really going to have to
(01:05:45):
have a reckoning around this behavior has to stop and
what are we going to do because I don't think
that they're really acting with the urgency that this deserves.
Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I agree, But I also think, because I said that
he's starting from such an early point that if he
woms up to it, if he gets interested in these
YouTube videos that he's watching, that a curiosity can build
that might get him there, But that will depend on
him doing it independently and really owning it at some point,
rather than Becca just pushing him.
Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
And I think the other pieces that when we're seeing
a couple, it's generally two people have an issue, So
it might look like one person has an issue, but
somebody else is colluding with the issue, and here it's Becca.
Becca really is afraid to take a stand, and while
it's important that she have empathy for whatever he might
be dealing with, she's not setting boundaries. And I think
(01:06:36):
that it's really important for Becca to look into herself. Becca,
if you're listening, to think about what boundaries you want
to set for yourself, because it takes two to work
on a problem like this.
Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Next week we're going to check in with Nicole from
season two to hear how she's doing.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Later, she was basically saying, I can't be with him anymore.
I don't even like him anymore. I don't think i'm
in love with him. I don't even want to have
sex with them anymore.
Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please
help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us.
Email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily
(01:07:46):
Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you
at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of
iHeartRadio
Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
Fish Food
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a woman who loves her husband worries about his anger
toward their young children and considers whether she should leave
him to protect them.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
It's not healthy for our daughter. You need to get
therapy or we're going to leave so that I can
protect her first.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
A quick note Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
The advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other
qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding
a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you
(01:09):
are agreeing to let ihelp media use it in pot
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names have
been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Hey Laurie, Hey Guy.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So what do we have in our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
So today we have a letter from a woman who's
having some difficulty in her relationship, and it goes like this,
Dear Laurie and Guy, I'm in a really difficult position
in a relationship that started off five years ago as
a spontaneous rulw'in in romance and has only mildly dampened
with time and two young children, a three year old
(01:47):
daughter and a five month old son. I am still
in love with my boyfriend Jake and enjoy spending time
together and as a family. The problem is that during
my second pregnancy and postpartum, his parenting style towards our
old has changed, and he is quick to lash out
at her verbally and emotionally. He is intolerant of her age,
typical boundary testing and tantrums, and I can see the
(02:08):
harm done by the way he handles this. Playing referee
and mediator between what feels like two toddlers is exhausting,
especially while caring for an infant. It's like I don't
have a partner to help share the load. His nasty
demeanor towards our daughter has made me think more than
once that I should leave him, But paradoxically, I feel
this will end up with him having more one on
(02:29):
one time due to a custody agreement where I will
be unable to do damage control and intervene. There's no abuse,
and I recognize the value of having time with their dad,
so sole custody doesn't seem realistic or healthiest. I've approached
Jake about couples counseling, him, getting anger management counseling, and
even let him know I was considering leaving. These resulted
(02:49):
in tears on his end and promises to try to
get better, but nothing is changed. I feel paralyzed, and
I'm not sure what arrangement would be best for the kids.
I also wonder if breaking up would be healthiest for me,
because if I'm worrying about the kids the entire time
they're with him, maybe it wouldn't be I would greatly
appreciate any help figuring this out. Sincerely, Becca.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, it's interesting because Becka says that there's no abuse,
but lashing out at children verbally is a form of
emotional abuse, so certainly can be when it's harsh and
it goes on over time. So I'm really glad that
Jake is actually joining us today because it sounds like
something we really need to talk to both parents about
(03:32):
to get an understanding of what's going on and why
and what can change there.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, exactly, emotional violence is abuse, and it has long
lasting effects and it can be very traumatic, especially when
it's ongoing. And when it's ongoing, we call that complex
trauma because it's not one event, it's multiple events happening
all the time. And it sounds like Jake realizes that
something needs to change, but he's having trouble doing the changing.
(03:58):
And that's why I think it's important that we're both
of them on.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Every day. We see in our offices people who've had
an experience in childhood in which their parents would yell
at them or speak to them very very harshly, and
they're very damaged by that. So we really have to
be very clear that how parents speak to their children
does have a big impact. It doesn't require physical abuse
to leave a scar. Let's talk to them.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So, Hi Becka, Hi Jake.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So we're glad both of you are here because this
is an experience that is going on between the two
of you, and I think before we get to the
problem that you wrote in about beck with your daughter,
we wanted to understand a little bit more about earlier
in your relationship and how you decided to have kids.
It sounds like you said it was a whirlwind. Everything
happened very quickly. And since we heard from you already, Becca, Jake,
(05:14):
why don't you tell us a little bit about your
experience of early in the relationship and then the first
pregnancy and first experience of being a parent.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
So none of it was planned. Actually, Becca called me
and sprung the news on me that she found out
she was pregnant. So that was a very big shock,
came completely out of left field.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
When you say it was a shock. Was it a
good shock, a scary shock? What kind of shock?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Scary? For sure? I didn't really think I was going
to possibly even have her have kids. It was something
that wasn't really thought about that much. I was all
about having fun cars, motorcycles, friends. Never really gave I
guess fatherhood a serious thought.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
How old were you at the time.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
I was twenty five when we met, so you would
have been twenty nine.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Twenty nine, twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Jake, How did you come to terms then? Given this
with such a shock, you weren't even thinking you might
have kids. Now you find out you have one on
the way. Tell us how you adapted to that. What
was the process for you?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I don't really know what the process was. Just kind
of went with the flow. It was definitely scary the
entire time, you know, going from possibly never having kids
still all of a sudden, within the next nine months
or so, I'm going to have a little, tiny, little baby.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
How long had you known each other at that point
you or nine months? So, given how new the relationship was,
had the two of you talked about having a future
together or was that not even on the table at
that point in the relationship.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yeah, we definitely had the conversation of having a future together.
Becca's lease where she was living was coming to an end,
and so was mine, who were starting to discuss getting
an apartment together. I don't recall if that was before
after finding out about Isabella, but I did know going
into her line of work that we would potentially have
(07:19):
to be relocated at some point, and I was on
board from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Jake, it sounds like you really didn't think about a
future with kids. Becca. Did you think about a future
with kids, and if so, did Jake know that you
thought about a future with kids.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah. I actually initially had the thought that I would
have like four or five kids someday. When Jake and
I met, it was, as I kind of mentioned, kind
of like a whirlwind because we spent like pretty much
every day together for the first six months when on
all these adventures had a ton of fun. The idea
of having kids eventually like kind of came up in
(08:00):
a lighthearted way. Like we were looking over text messages
the other day and one was like, Uh, he'd message
me like, Oh, if we do have kids, they would
be Gerber babies. They'd be so cute. But we never
had like a serious conversation about it. And I think,
like from a relationship perspective, I think the first or
the second night we met, I told him that I
(08:21):
was in medical school at the time, and I was like, oh,
you know, in a few months when I match, I
have no control over where I go, so I don't
know if we should get into anything. And he was like, oh,
I'll follow you wherever you go. So I think there
was like a pretty intense connection early on.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So when you texted Becca about having Gerber babies together,
was there a part of you that thought maybe you
did want kids.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
I think if I was going to have them, it
would have been later on. Like I said earlier, I
was still having a lot of fun at the time.
I was living with a couple of my good friends,
working Monday through Friday and Surrey and Sunday's, having a blast,
going on guy trips here and there, and seriously thinking
about settling down with a family and children was definitely
(09:07):
way in the back of my mind.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Jake, So tell me about the discussion between the two
of you and you get that phone call, since you
were so blindsided by it, what was the discussion like
between the two of you about the fact that this
is happening and how you felt about it.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
It was scary, for sure, getting that information. I didn't
know the first thing about kids. I didn't have any
brothers or sisters. I was an only child. The closest
thing to being around a baby was my cousin's And
there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So Becca, tell us what happened between the two of you.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It wasn't something that we thought that deeply about because
I was on birth control, so I didn't really think
it was a possibility, and I was very faithful. I
had an alarm in my phone. Was not planning on
getting pregnant. So when I started having symptoms, I was
a and I was like, okay, let me just take
a test just to put my mind at ease. And
(10:05):
when it was positive, I know, I started crying. I
called my best friend and I was like, I don't
really know what to do. Should I tell Jake now
or should I wait until he comes to visit next weekend.
She had said, you know, if it was me, I'd
probably want to know as soon as possible. So I
called him and he was definitely really shocked by the news.
(10:25):
He's normally a very talkative person, and it was pretty silent,
but he said like, Okay, I just need a little
bit of time to think about this, but whatever you
want to do, And over the next couple weeks when
we talked, it just seemed like he was very much like, Okay,
ball's in your court, Becca, whatever you want to do,
I'm behind you one hundred percent. So I thought about
(10:47):
it and I decided, you know, I did want to
have multiple kids, and it might not be the most
ideal circumstance, but I really felt like I had a
great connection with Jake and could see a future together.
So we talked and he was okay with us kind
of moving forward deciding to keep the baby.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Did you understand how Jake felt or was the messaging
you were getting just whatever you decide, I'm here. But
did you understand more of all of the ambivalence and
terror that he was experiencing.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I don't think so. I don't think I knew that
he was scared. I thought there might be like some
remorse over like the loss of the life that he
was getting to live. I got definitely the remorse for
that part of his life, but I didn't know that
he was scared until today, Actually.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Jake, why didn't you share that with her?
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And she had a lot on her plate as it
was going through med school, and I guess it was
my burden to carry to deal with Definitely not one too.
I guess share my feelings and put my feelings out there.
Quite often I kind of bury them and just deal
with it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Is it still something that you feel hesitant to share
when you're having challenging feelings? Do you still hesitate to
share them with Becker? Even now.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
On occasion? I just I guess the word is suck
it up and deal with it would be the best
way to describe what Typically.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So it's a decision and it's a philosophy that you
have that one shouldn't share. It's better for you to
not let her know how you're feeling about things.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
I mean certain things. If it's a big enough issue,
yes I would share. But if it's something that's going
to blow over, or it's it's only a small thing,
then I'll just deal with it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So the question is whether it indeed blows over or
whether over time these feelings accumulate and then they come
out in other ways.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Yeah, there's definitely times where I blow up and it
comes out in anger. For sure. It's usually work related.
The stresses from work definitely add up. I think I
let my feelings no pretty well about work.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
You let them be known because you share them with BECO,
or because you blow up and then it becomes apparent
that something's bothering you.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I'd say probably a little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Jake, I'm curious about this idea that you have that
it's a burden to share your feelings with someone else
and that it's better if they just kind of blow over.
Was that something you learned earlier on in life.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Yeah, my family isn't. Definitely not some a family that
I guess shares their feelings all that often. Talking about
our feelings was definitely not something that ever happened.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Do you see the connection between not expressing your feelings
unless it's a big deal. Do you see the connection
between keeping all of those things in and the temper
and then blowing up and having a short fuse.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
I've always had a temper. I saw therapists quite a
few years ago for my anger, and in that.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Work, was it suggested that part of the internal pressure
you might feel that promotes. The temper might be related
to the fact that you don't have this release valve
because you keep things in unless they're really big.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
It's possible during therapy. The big thing that ended up
changing was me moving out. At the time, I was
still living at my parents' house, me and my dad
butt heads quite a bit, and moving out to get
out of that toxic I guess environment and being out
with my friends for the first time made a big difference,
a very big difference.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
But it was that that made the difference, not that
you learned to regulate those feelings a little better.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Correct Becca, how much did you know about what Jake's
talking about right now and the philosophy of I don't
want to burn people with my feelings and the misconception
that they'll just go away if I don't talk about them.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So initially, for the first like year, probably I didn't
know about it, and he was actually like very even keeled.
It would come out a little bit when we would
go to visit his family and he would say like,
oh me, my dad, but head sometimes even nowadays, like
I'll leave like water bottles that I've drank around the house,
(15:38):
And I didn't know until the past couple months that
it was something that bothered him because he doesn't bring
up those small things. So it's like I kind of
wonder sometimes, like what other things do I do that
bother him that he's just not saying anything about because
in my mind, I was like, oh, nothing about me
bothers this guy.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And he's laughing. So, Jake, it sounds like she's on
the right track here that maybe there are some other
things you haven't shared with her.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
It would have to come up at the moment. But
if she did something, I guess I can't think of anything,
like right off the top of my head, the water
bottles is just just a peppeeve of mine, just having
all these empty plastic water bottles the nightstand and one
day to put something in it and on her side
(16:28):
and there was like six empty plastic water bottles, and
why can't they just be put in the recycling?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
They're just And it was that moment that made you
bring it up with her, like it had to get
to the six empty water bottles in the nightstand.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
I don't really know how it was actually brought up.
It may have been somewhat recent where I cleaned up
I found a bunch of them, took them all out
and then to the recycling, came back in and there
was like three more sitting on the counter that she
had brought back. I don't know where she pulled them
out from.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The water bottles are a great exone because they're a
small thing and we're laughing about it, but it happens
a lot, and so that's when we talk about accumulating
these kinds of feelings. You can see that if you
count how many water bottles are left around, how often
it adds up to much more than just a pet peeve.
And that's why when you feel this accumulation of frustrations,
(17:21):
it is important to express and address it. I do
want to go to Isabella because I want to hear
Jake what that experience was like. The fear is very
very appropriate when you're having your first child, but were
you also excited? How did it feel when she was born,
when you were holding her. I'd like to hear about
your experience.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Yeah, it was exciting. As scary as it was, it
was nice. Had no idea what I was getting into,
but she was this perfect little thing. I have a
selfie that I took in the hospital holding her and
her eyes are open staring at the camera, and it
just yeah, it was a nice moment. I actually vividly
(18:02):
remember my dad. He was out in the waiting room
for quite a few hours once they found out that
the baby was coming, and I remember walking out Tom
telling them that she was here and just breaking down
a crying.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
And so these bursts of anger toward Isabella, they weren't
happening until your son was born, or were they also
happening periodically before he was born?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Periodically? I know she's just a toddler, but when she
knows better, she's sometimes will look at you and smile,
even though you tell her no, and she will just
look at you and smile and do it anyway, and
then she just tries me nuts.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Toddler's do that because that's how they learned. They test
the limits all the time to see what's allowed and
what isn't and it requires a lot of repetition, so
those limits have to be reinforced over and over again.
And when she looks at you and smiles, she's almost
like signaling you about to test the limit here, So
let's see what you do. Can you give me an example, Jake,
(19:05):
when you do have an outbust with Isabella? What does
that look like?
Speaker 4 (19:08):
It's yelling? I get loud, I get very frustrated and
say what Instead of just saying I need you to
clean these up? I would just say that out a
much louder yelling volume. I don't like messes, and when
there is a big mess, that frustrates me, and I
(19:28):
will say what the and start cleaning it up? Why
did you do that? I don't have a sensor, and
I would say probably what the f? Why did you?
Why did you do that? And just very angry manner.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And how does she react when you yell at her
like that?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Sometimes she he just gets quiet and sits there. There's
been other times where she's laughing, which gets me even
more frustrated. And then there's other times where you could
definitely tell she feels guilty or upset about it, and
then she'll start crying and I continue to be mad
in this situation. And then once the situation has been resolved,
(20:21):
whether it's cleaning it up or whatever the case is,
is when I get out of seeing red and take
a step back and realize she's just a toddler, and
I will hold her and give her a hug and
tell her I'm sorry, and then she'll it's okay.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You have this phrase rupture and repair, and so when
there's a rupture, whether that's in a relationship between adults
or between parents and children, it's not just that a
rupture happened, But then how does it get repaired? And
it sounds like you attempt to repair it with Isabella,
But the problem is that it happens frequently enough that
(21:06):
she might not trust the repair, and she might not
also be able to really tell you how she feels
in those moments. So she says it's okay, almost to
make you feel better, but I'm guessing that it has
a bigger effect on her and that it's probably not
so okay with her. And so I'm wondering about when
(21:30):
this first started happening, and Becca, you saw it and
you told Jake that you weren't comfortable with it. How
did those conversations go in the very beginning, and then
how have they evolved over time?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
So in the beginning, I wouldn't talk to him about
it in front of Isabella. Sometimes it would be like
I would hear him yelling, and I would come from
another room and then help to kind of facilitate the
repair part. And then at a leader point, I would
talk to Jake and be like, hey, like that wasn't okay.
That probably really hurt her, and he would say, you know,
(22:08):
I know, I'm sorry it happened. I'm gonna work really
hard and I won't.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Do it again.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
What did that mean? Work really hard? You mean Jake
on your own or going to therapy.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
On my own? Try to think before reacting.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Did you ever get any tools for that from your
earlier therapy or just maybe some research you did or
a book you read or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
No, you try counting.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, I do have a repriver so often just take
a deep breath and count to maybe ten and trying
to de escalate.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Does that help at all?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Sometimes?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And so when you hear Becca saying this, what is
it like for you? When Becca brings this up to
you that she's uncomfortable with the way that you're react
acting to Isabella frustrating?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
I know I need to change for sure. It's disheartening,
you know, knowing that I'm not making I guess becka happy,
and I know the damage it's potentially doing to Isabella.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
What is the damage you think it might be doing
to Isabella.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
The mental damage she might have later in life. I
have noticed recently, I feel like, very recently, that she's
starting to have a little bit of a temper and
reacting to scenarios the way I would react to scenarios.
And I have actually told her not to be like
me in these scenarios, to be more like mom.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Right, But that doesn't really work when you're modeling for
her that it's okay to react in anger because here
I do it frequently. Then you can say, oh, you
shouldn't do it, But are you actually teaching her right?
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Which And this is something I've just noticed, probably within
the past two weeks. That was a big eye opener
for sure.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
What happened in the last two weeks.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I personally have noticed how she's been reacting to certain scenarios.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And what does that change for you that you noticing
that she's imitating you?
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Sad to say, but that's so far nothing?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Why not?
Speaker 4 (24:23):
I don't have an answer for that. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
You butt heads with your father? Did your parents yell
at you?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
No?
Speaker 4 (24:32):
No?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
No.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
The reason my dad and I butt head so much
is he loves getting under people's skin, Like if he
knows something is bothering me, he will just dig and
dig and dig until I explode.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So you're the one who explodes, but he does, yes, and.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Then once I explode, then it's made him yelling at
each other.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So the anger management that you felt you needed in
your early twenties when you went to a therapist? What
precipitated that? What was going on in your life where
you felt like, I really need to understand this better?
Speaker 4 (25:07):
A previous relationship set of if I didn't do something
about it and see a therapist, then she was leaving.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
And did you agree that maybe it was problematic what
was going on? Or did you just go because you
didn't want to lose her? I just want so you
didn't think it was really problematic at the time like
you do now, because now you're saying you do.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Are you saying that now, Jake? Do you think that
it's problematic now? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
What's different between now and then? Before you didn't think
it was problematic, but now you do. What's changed for you?
Speaker 4 (25:45):
The kids? Seeing the way Isabella is reacting to things now,
it's definitely the kids.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Does this happen with your son too. I know he's
five months, but does it happen with him at all?
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, crying, crying is just just gets under my skin incredibly.
And Isabella was she very rarely cried. She was just
always this happy baby. And then Dean, he was just
(26:20):
constantly crying and it was definitely frustrating.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's interesting, Jake, because the two things that you've mentioned
that really frustrate you are crying and messages, and you
have a baby and a toddler and a wife with
a what about a problem? So it's really it's a
deadly combination. And I'm talking about it, but truly, it
(26:48):
seems that if those are the sensitivities, you know, there's
just fertile ground to be frustrated a lot. Now, you
said that you do take it seriously. Now, you do
recognize now that it's a problem, and recently so I'll
give you that. But even in the recent couple of
weeks where it's occurred to you more, have you thought
of doing any research, you know, Lorios, if you've read
(27:10):
any books or read any articles, is that something you've
thought about acquiring tools? Because part of the problem you
have is you have no tools. You have the you know, count,
but that's it. Otherwise it's just strain and hope it
doesn't come out, which is not a tool. Have you
thought about looking for tools? Discuss that with Beckap perhaps
over the past couple of weeks, I have not.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I'm thinking about what these conversations might look like between
the two of you, because it sounds like they've come
up quite a bit. You're nodding, so, yes, okay. Sometimes
when we have a lot of feelings, we go numb.
And what I'm hearing with you, Jake is that there's
almost like something isn't going in because I imagine that
(27:53):
maybe you go a little bit numb. And people are
confused about numbness. Often they think, if I go numb,
I'm not feeling anything. But numbness isn't the absence of feelings.
Numbness is a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.
We can't process all the feelings, and we go numb.
I'm wondering, Becka, from your perspective, what is it like
(28:15):
when you're trying to talk to Jake about this? And
in your letter you said you've tried various ways of
setting boundaries around it, like we should go to therapy,
or you should go to anger management, or I might
leave you. So Jake, you're saying you go numb in
these conversations pretty much, that you don't really have a
sense of what you're feeling when she's talking about it,
(28:38):
and Becca, I'm wondering for you, what is it like
when you're talking to Jake and it seems like maybe
it's not being received by him.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Invalidating and really frustrating because I feel like there should
be an emotional reaction and that there should be some openness,
and I suspect that he is really motivated deep down
and is hurt by the fact that he's like lashing
out and potentially damaging Isabella and our relationship. But when
(29:15):
I don't get anything out of him except for I'll
try harder, it hurts. It makes me feel like he
doesn't care. And then I actually like didn't know about
the therapy they had gone to before, and it's just
a little hurtful to hear that, like that person saying
that she might leave would lead to him being like, Okay,
(29:36):
I'm going to go get therapy, but me saying it's
not healthy for our daughter. You need to get therapy
or we're going to leave so that I can protect her.
Resulted in like, I'm not going to get therapy. I'm
just going to try harder.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
You know, I'm looking at your face, Jake, and I
see so much coming across your face right now. Because
I was looking at your face, there were these conflicting
emotions running through you, and they probably lasted a millisecond
because you don't want to feel them, so you have
become very skilled at getting rid of them as soon
(30:14):
as they show up. And on the one hand, I
could see the pain. I could see the pain of
I'm hurting these people that I love. I could see
the pain of I don't want to lose my wife.
I don't want to damage my daughter. And I imagine
too that there's a part of you that's hard to acknowledge,
(30:35):
which might be this fantasy which I don't think you
actually want to come true. But sometimes we have fantasies
about these things when we feel really trapped and stuck,
and maybe it would be a relief, Maybe I would
get that freedom that I really wanted because now I
have two kids. And in your letter back you were
saying it really escalated during your second pregnancy and the
(30:58):
postpartum Now there's really a lack of freedom with the
two young ones, and that there's a part of you,
Jake that doesn't know what to do with this real need,
and it's a legitimate need to have some kind of freedom,
especially when this came at a time in your life
when you weren't expecting to have to give it up.
(31:20):
And you're nodding, so I can see that that's true too,
And it's okay to be able to talk about all
the different ingredients here and not just what you think
Becca wants to hear, but what the truth of your
experience is, because I actually think that will help you
to manage your anger differently. And so I'm wondering if
(31:42):
we could try a little exercise here right now where
you guys can talk about this a little bit differently.
Are you guys willing to try that?
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, okay, So if you can face each other and
if you can hold hands with each other, I wonder
if Becca you can show Jake that you can tolerate
the truth of his experience, all of it. So, Jake,
I'm wondering if you could tell Becca a little bit
about the conflict that you're experiencing of on the one hand,
(32:16):
wanting to be a really good father and a really
good partner, and on the other hand, feeling really ripped
off and feeling like sometimes it just feels really unfair,
and sometimes you need a break, and you don't quite
know what to do with all of these feelings, and
you don't even know how to talk to Becca about them.
Can you share whatever's going on with you and your
(32:38):
own words with her? And Becca, I just want you
to breathe through this. You don't need to respond, You
just need to be present so that you can open
up a space between you for the truth.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Like we've discussed, I do have me time ever since
the new job. I don't ever get any time. I
love you guys, and we do have a lot of
(33:13):
fun together. There's definitely times that I definitely want to
run away, There's no doubt about it. But I will
always be here. I don't ever want to go away.
I love you, guys.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Could you say jink a little bit about how it
feels in those moments we want to run away?
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Talking about feelings. One thing I don't feeling.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I want to reframe that for you a little bit,
because I think that you're not comfortable doing it, but
I don't know yet whether you like doing it, because
I have a feeling that once you get comfortable talking
about your feelings, you will like it very much because
it will help you to have a place to go
with them instead of doing what you're doing with them now.
(34:10):
And Becca, watch out because he might start talking a
lot about his feelings in the future once he realizes
how much he likes it.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
The times that I want to just run away, I
think of the days having fun, what could have been
without kids, the traveling, the adventures. I feel like my
time was cut short.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
And it.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Just wasn't ready to give up the nights out with
the boys and the trips.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
When Isabella is frustrating you and you have those thoughts
about but I got rubbed of this. You're juxtaposing feeling
really free and liberated and fun, but you're juxtaposing that
with feeling in that moment. What is it trapped? Is
it suffocated? Is it stressed? Is it sad? I'm just
(35:18):
giving you different words, but I want you to try
and use your own words to describe the feeling.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
It's sad. Was the one thing that you said that
definitely definitely feel sad, sorry for myself, self pity. I
know I'm being selfish, that's a judgment. But going back
to the feelings you've talked about feeling sad, I'm associating
(35:47):
the sadness with grief. That you're grieving this idea of
this part of your life that you didn't get to
really complete in the way you wanted to. And that
sometimes because you aren't able to really talk about the grief,
(36:08):
when something is right in front of you that reminds
you of what you lost, that that triggers that big
reaction in you. Is that what happens for you. I
don't know what happened when I just said that. I
(36:30):
was just thinking that I love you well, not you.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
But do you see how you got distracted from the feeling? Yeah, yeah, yes,
you said sometimes it frustrates you that when you're yelling
at Isabella she laughs. And when I just made you
a little bit uncomfortable by asking you to think about
your feelings, you laughed. So I want you to think
(36:56):
about that next time you're yelling at Isabella and she laughs.
It means she's uncomfortable. She's feeling something but wants to
get rid of it, just like you're doing right now.
So let's go back for a second to that feeling.
I imagine that there's some grieving that you haven't done
(37:18):
around the loss of this version of this time in
your life. That would look a little different. And when
Isabella does something, when the baby is crying, that's a
stark reminder of what you have lost, and so I
imagine that it brings up those feelings of grief and loss,
(37:41):
and you get really angry because these are unprocessed feelings
of grief and loss. So when you said sad, I
can see that because that's grief. That's the sadness. So
you're nodding to that. Does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yes, Jake. I think part of what blocks you from
talking to Becca about these feelings about feeling the loss,
about feeling sad is what you said afterwards, Well, that
feels selfish. And I'm wondering if you realize that Becca
must be having some of the same feelings because her
(38:24):
days of independence were also cut short in that way.
Has it occurred to you that these might be feelings
she's having as well to some degree, No, it.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Did not, and they might not be exactly the same feelings,
but she probably has her own experience of parenthood where
it's very challenging, especially if she's still in medical school
or doing residency or starting out. Becca, can you talk
to Jake a little bit about the various experiences you've
(38:57):
had as a new parent.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah, So, in Isabella I was born, I had this
idea of kind of the mom. I was going to
be a super mom, like that I could handle residency
and I could be this great mom and do both
things one hundred percent. And it's been tough realizing that,
(39:23):
like there is a version of myself in residency and
like at work that I could have been if I
didn't have kids, and like a level of devotion I
could have thrown myself in. And at the same time,
like if I didn't have residency or commitment to like
this line of work, there's a version of myself that,
(39:44):
like a mom version of myself I could be for
Isabella and for Dean, and kind of feeling like I'm
always falling short in both places. That's been been really tough.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Jake, what is it like for you to hear that
she also struggles with imagining these different versions of her
life if she didn't have kids, how she would perform
at work, if she didn't have work, how she would
be as a parent. Did you know that you had
that in common, these fantasy lives that you think about sometimes, No,
(40:20):
I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
I want you to be happy. So it's definitely very
sad to hear that you also have I guess this
conflict or battle of what could be?
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Is it also a little bit of a relief to
know that both of you, like many new parents, have struggled.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah. Yes, most new parents have moments where they wish
there was an eject button that they could smick because
it's just so much and it's not unusual and doesn't
mean they don't love their kids. It just means it
can be really overwhelming. And the thing, Jake, is that
(41:06):
most of the feelings that you're described being are normative.
There's nothing unusual about them, especially when a pregnancy is unplanned.
But I think there's a way in which you feel
that you shouldn't have these feelings, or it's selfish of
you to have these most natural of thoughts. And so
(41:26):
I'm glad you say that you feel this relief to
hear that Becca has her version of those feelings, as
do most parents, and therein is the benefit of sharing
your feelings. You get to find out that your partner
has similar ones and that there's something that actually unites
you in these feelings rather than divides. You're not that
(41:49):
I'm saying that, but is that how it feels to you? Yes?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, Becca? Can you tell Jake what it was like
to hear all of that from him earlier?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Refreshing? So I feel like it's a treat whenever I
get to hear kind of like that deep of stuff
from you.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Did you feel that he was selfish when you heard
that or what was your impression of his fantasy of
sometimes wanting to hit the check button as Guy said.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
I didn't think it was selfish. I could like identify
with it kind of like mirrored like feelings that I've
had before. And I feel like, you know, Jake would
be somebody safe that I could talk to that about
not have to worry about being judged, And I'm glad
to know that he can say that to me, that
we're both feeling that sometimes.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Jake, have you ever shared this kind of feeling with anybody,
not just about having kids, but something that felt really
shameful to you, or something that made you feel not
good about yourself.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
So this is a new experience.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, yes, I think part of what might hold you back, Jake,
is quite quite basic in what it is, And I
think that is that you have trouble, like many people,
identifying what you feel, but specifically putting a name to it.
It was difficult for you to come up with those
(43:18):
names because it's a mush of feelings. You know you're
feeling something, but you're feeling it in your chest and
your throat and your shoulders and your stomach and you
it's difficult to tell which is which and what is what.
But the more practice you have naming those feelings, the
more fluent you get at being able to do that.
And I think that it's one of the things that's
(43:41):
been holding you back that you just worry that you
don't have the words. You might not be able to
identify exactly what you're feeling, but even if you can,
it's hard to put words.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Yeah, you nailed it, not having the words. What you
just said was perfect, Becca.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
How confident do you feel with your ability to name
your feelings, identify them, speak about them, label them.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
I feel very comfortable. I know some people for kids,
they want them to be like very smart, so they'll
work with them on like math and letters and stuff.
But for me, it's like identifying emotions. So with Isabella,
like she can tell you why she's feeling how she's feeling.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
So what does Isabella say after these incidents happen where
Jake is angry with her? Does she talk to you
Becca or does she talk to you Jake about what
she feels? Does she have the vocabulary to do that?
I would say yes, what does she actually say?
Speaker 4 (44:48):
She knows when I'm upset with work, and she will
come over and actually tell me how I'm feeling. Right, See,
you're up set, daddy, maybe a hug will make you
feel better, and she'll give me a hug.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And on the one hand, that's very cute because she's little,
and it also shows empathy. But it's also possible that
she does that because she knows that when Daddy is upset,
Daddy can get really mad. Yeah, and so I want
you to see both sides of that. That she may
feel like she needs to regulate you so that you
(45:27):
don't lash out at her makes sense, And so I'm
wondering maybe with beccasins Becca, you say you're a little
bit more fluent with feelings. Does she ever say to you,
I was scared of daddy, or I'm really mad at daddy,
or I was really sad? Does she ever talk about
(45:49):
her experience of being yelled at with you?
Speaker 3 (45:52):
Yeah, all three of those. She usually doesn't spend a
lot of time talking about it, but she'll like, I
was sad when Daddy yelled at me, and I don't
know why he yelled at me. And we'll kind of
talk about, oh, this is where Daddy is coming from,
and this is where you were coming from, and you know,
daddy's taking some space right now because that's how he
(46:15):
calms down to feel better or what would feel good
for you. And then I'll end up telling Jake how
Isabella is feeling, and then he'll go and do the
like repair work you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Do you ever say to Isabella that even though Daddy
was upset, that it's not okay that he yelled at her.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
I do, but I don't know how much of that
gets through. And I'll tell her like, she's not responsible
for Daddy getting mad, and but she's still a good
kid and everybody gets mad.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Sometimes there's another way to deal with her anger when
we get mad, that we can use a different voice
to express what we're upset about.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
I'll have to keep that in my toolbox to say
next time.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Jake, Now that you're seeing how much of an impact
this has on Isabella, not only now, but might have
on her as she grows up, I'm wondering when Becka says, hey,
we could go to therapy, or you could do some
anger management, or even I don't know if we can
(47:26):
stay if this is going to go on, does like
all three things have happened? What do you think is
keeping you from doing something that might be helpful, not
just for the other people, but mostly for you?
Speaker 4 (47:44):
Lazy? If I want to put in the work.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
I don't think people are really lazy. I think that
people avoid things and then they look like they're lazy.
So I'm gonna say it a different way. Why are
you avoiding dealing with this given how high the stakes
are and how.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Long you've been dealing with it.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
I keep telling myself that I can fix it myself,
but you know that.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's not been the case. So that's again a way
that we avoid as we lie to ourselves. It's really
easy to tell ourselves what we want to hear, so
we can avoid doing the thing that we need to do.
I have a theory about why you might be avoiding this,
and that's because of that conflict we were talking about
(48:33):
earlier between the part of you that feels ripped off
and the part of you that wants to be a
part of this family. And I think that there's a
part of you that isn't even in your awareness, that
feels like if I go deal with this, then I
(48:55):
am giving in to this life, and I don't get
to hold on to any part of that other life life.
At least when I'm acting out, that part of my
life is alive, and I want to suggest that there
might be other ways to keep that other part of
(49:15):
your life alive and also do things in your life
that might give you more balance.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
I know within the next few months things are going
to get significantly better. We get to move back home
with all of our friends and family. Where we are
now we have no support systems. We'll have grandparents only
fifteen minutes away instead of two hours away, friends only
five ten minutes away instead two hours away. And I
(49:49):
already know the job I'm now. I am resigning from
this position because it's just not healthy having our friends
and family and going back to the job that I
enjoyed doing a lot of that will change.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
It's definitely will And being without a support system is
specially difficult when you have two young kids and a newborn.
But Jake, I wanted to offer you another theory about
why you might not have sort help.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
Well.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Number One, you did in the past, and it doesn't
sound like you walked out with a lot of tools
from that experience. And a lot of times when people
and especially men have issues with anger management, they think
that they just need to learn to hold it in better,
that they just need to get that better cork that
(50:46):
will stuff it in and then it won't come out.
And right now you don't know how to get a
better cork. It's very difficult to understand a nonlinear relationship
between talking about your feelings of frustration, loss of the bachelorhood.
How is that related to you know, me having the
(51:07):
temper or keeping it in about the water bottles or
the messes you know? And I think that part of
what makes you hesitate is you just don't understand or
know what possible tools can people give me that will
actually help me other than me just needing the willpower
to not explode. And I'm wondering if that's something that's
(51:28):
going on with you that you just don't quite know
what that help could even be, or that doesn't quite
make sense to you, And so it feels it will
just come down to me needing to not and I'm
trying to not anyway, So what else can I do?
Speaker 4 (51:42):
Yeah, I can definitely relate with that, especially the core scenario.
That's how I feel like I just need to try
harder to suppress the anger back up.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
You've talked about thinking you don't know how long you
can keep going in this situation. Where are you with
that right now?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I feel conflicted because I want to believe that, like
once we move back and there's more balance, that everything
will get better. But I feel this like ambivalence because
for me, I want to stay with Jake and I
want us to be a family and be together forever,
(52:33):
and I'm happy, But then as a mother seeing the
impact that it has on Isabella, it makes me feel
like to do what's best for her in the times
when the anger does get pretty bad that it'd be
better if, like Jake was just like a part time parent.
(52:58):
And I feel like those two parts of me fight
a lot.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Can I ask you, Jake, if we flashed forward several decades,
Isabella and Dean are really struggling in their lives. They're
struggling with how they feel about themselves. They're struggling and
then their friendships and they're romantic relationships. They may be
(53:25):
numbing themselves with certain things like drugs or alcohol. Maybe
they are able to tell you you hurt us constantly
when we were growing up. How would you feel about
your life choices several decades on that were the case.
Speaker 4 (53:48):
Horrible?
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Do you understand that that's the potential path you're on?
Speaker 4 (53:53):
I do now.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
So, Becca and Jake, we have some advice for you,
and it's in several parts. Part one is this. There's
this wonderful tool that we love called the feelings Wheel
or the emotions Wheel, and it's just that it's a
wheel with a lot of different emotions on it. We'd
like you to print one out. They're very easy to
(54:21):
find online, and we'd like you every evening when you
have literally five minutes each of you take turns. Jake
would like you to start and just talk about your
day and name at least five feelings that correspond to
your narrative. You don't have to know them ahead of time.
You just look at the wheel when you know what
you're feeling inside but you can't articulate it. You look
(54:43):
at the wheel, and just when I gave you multiple shows,
you said, yes, this one, Yes, this one, that's how
the wheel functions. You look at it and go, oh, right,
it's this. But would like you every day to have
five minutes where each of you just talk about each
other's days, using and naming your feelings. So that's the
first one. The second assignment we gaveing you is, Jake,
(55:05):
we want you to google two articles about the effects
of yelling at your kids and find it from reputable
sources the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and we'd like you to
read just a couple of short articles and then tell
Becca what you've learned from them, so that you can
have a conversation and have discussions about the impact of
(55:27):
yelling at your kids. So that's not something you're ignoring
that you're really talking about as you're trying to control
the anger. What is the impact of yelling at your
kids at young ages, and we think.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
That that'll give you a good foundation for the next exercise,
which is that Becca, we would like you to write
a letter, as if it's decades in the future, from
Isabella and Dean to Jake about what their lives are
(56:01):
like and what the effect of this yelling has had
on them if it continues the way that it does,
and we're going to imagine for this letter that it did.
And please don't try to protect his feelings, because Isabella
and Dean will not try to protect his feelings. Kids
who are yelled at will be very clear, usually later
(56:26):
in life, about the impact that it had on them.
And Jake, what we would like you to do is
write a letter back when you get that letter to
your children who are now adults, about what you wish
you had done differently, if indeed you do, and really
be open and honest, just as open and honest as
(56:48):
you were with Becca in the conversation today about other feelings.
We want you to be really open and honest with
them about how it feels to you, knowing that this
is how they feel as adults. Given that the yelling
didn't stop and the good news about this is it's
not actually happening in the future. You have a chance
(57:10):
to do things differently should you so choose. And the
last part is that we would like you to learn
a little bit more about anger management because it sounds
like you don't really have tools that have worked for you.
(57:33):
So we would like you to join an anger management group.
And I know that your time is limited, so there
are also lots of online options where you can just
zoom into the group, and we would like you to
give it a try to see what it's like to
hear other people talk about their experiences, because you're definitely
not alone in this. Lots of people had modeling where
(57:55):
they didn't know there was another way to manage their feelings,
and often they couldn't I identify their feelings, which is
something that you noticed in our conversation today that sometimes,
like I said, you just don't know what the words
are for the feelings. And the one thing that's really
easy to access is anger. So if we can get
underneath that, you might be able to have some tools
(58:20):
that will be helpful for you and maybe that'll help
you take away some of the shame around it, realize
you're not alone, and then get some really good information
about what might be helpful.
Speaker 4 (58:32):
Okay, thank you, Marian guy.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Some couples can't do what they did, which is talk
about something that's really difficult and then still stay connected.
And they were still holding hands even when some of
the content was difficult to hear. They stay present for
each other. And I think the challenge for Jake is
really the dissociating that he does. He knows intellectually that
(59:08):
what he's doing is damaging to his children, and then
he comes up with all kinds of reasons why it's
not a priority for him. And I think that when
he gets more in touch with his feelings, and I
think really not being able to avoid what the future
might look like. Because when I brought that up at
the end, he finally said, yeah, I get it. We
(59:30):
don't know if he really gets it, but it was
the first time that he acknowledged that.
Speaker 4 (59:34):
He does right.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
And I also agree that he kind of knows intellectually
that it's a problem. But that's why we gave in
that research assignment, because he really needs to be clear
that it is a problem. It's not a maybe, it's
not a oh, you know, I was okay somehow.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah, it's not just the tone when we talk to
our kids, is the content as well, and he was
saying that he says what the f to her, and
as parents we all have times when it wasn't our
finest parenting moment. When it's consistent in the way that
they're describing, it's really important for him to understand the
effect that it's going to have on his children, and
that it is having on his children.
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
So, guy, we heard from Becca and Jake, and I'll
be curious to hear how that went for them.
Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Hey Louri, Hey guy, this is Beca and Jake.
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
We're getting back in touch. Just to update you on
the assignments you gave us last week for.
Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
The feelings chart. We went over that every night and
I feel like it sparked a lot of good conversations.
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Yeah, I feel like it added some depth to our conversations,
and I did notice that Jake just kind of in
normal day to day conversations talked more about feelings, especially
other than just anger and frustration. So I can already
see that paying off for the second one, which was
looking up the effects of yelling, but I feel like
(01:01:14):
Jake it was difficult for him to confront that. I
felt like he avoided it most of the week and
it lead to some nagging on my end. He handed
up finding a really good series on YouTube that talked
about it, and I think it really piqued his interest
to keep looking for more. So he suggested doing this
five day stop Yelling at your Kid's parenting challenge. So
(01:01:35):
we're starting that feeling optimistic about that. For the next assignment,
where I was writing the letter from Isabella and Dean's perspective,
it was challenging because there were so many different effects
that the yelling can have, so kind of encompassing everything
in that was a little difficult. So I did send
(01:01:57):
that over to Jake, and I think it was tough
for him to read and might not have been the
most impactful, Like I wonder if he needs something a
little more concrete and tangible.
Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
It was difficult for me to put myself in the
headspace of pretending to be in the future and it
didn't really resonate for me. As for the anger management classes,
I'm not quite ready to jump into that yet, and
I know I need to find coping mechanisms, which led
me to a YouTube channel, so I'm going to start
(01:02:36):
there and see how that works for me.
Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Overall, this has created some moments of conflict and a
relationship that weren't there before, but I feel like it's
definitely an area where we can grow, and the couple
of things that have happened since then, it's really helped
me be more empathetic to see where Jake's coming from
and where his mind might be at because I have
a better idea now. One of the quotes that really
(01:03:03):
stuck out to us in the parenting resource we were
looking at was by Maya Angelo, and it goes, do
the best you can until you know better, than when
you know better, do better. So I feel like at
this point we're just getting to a place where we're
building our knowledge and hopefully that'll lead to doing better
in the future. Thank you again for all of your
(01:03:25):
help and for taking the time to work with us
on this.
Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
Thank you bye well.
Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
That reinforced a feeling I had during the session that
Jake was really starting from square one when it came
to this understanding of how yelling at the kids can
impact them, how his being in touch with his own
emotions or being able to express them or not is
(01:03:54):
impacting him. He really didn't see that connection at all,
and now he's odd thing to create some kind of
connective tissue in his mind between these things, primarily by
using the feelings shot. But I am a little disappointed
that he didn't take more ownership of the anger and
take more ownership of some of these tasks and really
(01:04:17):
dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
I think when we do these sessions, we want to
hold the hope for their growth, and at the same
time it can be disappointing. And I think in this case,
when other people are affected, like children, it's really hard
to have patience for the change to happen because you
(01:04:40):
know that as this is going on, this is really
affecting the children. And I think Becca is perhaps in
a little bit of denial too, because she said this
week brought up some conflict between them that she didn't
know was there, and yet it seemed like it had
been there or she wouldn't have written that letter to us.
(01:05:01):
And I noticed too that she did most of the
talking for Jake, and so it seemed like she was
sort of driving this and hoping that something would change,
but it's really going to have to come from a
place of Jake wanting to change. And there's something going
on with Jake where he's sort of compartmentalizing things where
he said I couldn't really get into the space of
(01:05:23):
that letter from the future. He's always got a reason
that something isn't going to work in terms of helping
him to grow and change in this area. And I
noticed too that they sometimes laugh through this, and I
know it's uncomfortable laughter, but it feels like something is
going to need to happen, not just with Jake but
also with Becca where they're really going to have to
(01:05:45):
have a reckoning around this behavior has to stop and
what are we going to do because I don't think
that they're really acting with the urgency that this deserves.
Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
I agree, But I also think, because I said that
he's starting from such an early point that if he
woms up to it, if he gets interested in these
YouTube videos that he's watching, that a curiosity can build
that might get him there, But that will depend on
him doing it independently and really owning it at some point,
rather than Becca just pushing him.
Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
And I think the other pieces that when we're seeing
a couple, it's generally two people have an issue, So
it might look like one person has an issue, but
somebody else is colluding with the issue, and here it's Becca.
Becca really is afraid to take a stand, and while
it's important that she have empathy for whatever he might
be dealing with, she's not setting boundaries. And I think
(01:06:36):
that it's really important for Becca to look into herself. Becca,
if you're listening, to think about what boundaries you want
to set for yourself, because it takes two to work
on a problem like this.
Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Next week we're going to check in with Nicole from
season two to hear how she's doing.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Later, she was basically saying, I can't be with him anymore.
I don't even like him anymore. I don't think i'm
in love with him. I don't even want to have
sex with them anymore.
Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please
help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us.
Email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily
(01:07:46):
Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you
at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of
iHeartRadio
Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
Fish Food
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