Encore: S03 Ep. 9 - Sandra and Kim’s Family Secret

This week we’re in session with sisters Sandra and Kim, who discover a family secret that their parents held for sixty years. We help them to process the news and communicate with their mother, who still feels shame and resistance around sharing the truth.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
we're in session with sisters Sondra and Kim, who discover
a family secret that their parents held for sixty years.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I internally just felt like there's something that's not right here.
We were asked our whole lives if we had the
same parents. First.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use
it in part orn full, and we may edit it
for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All
names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So who do we have visiting
us this week?

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, this week we have two sisters and their names
are Sandra and Kim, and their letter goes like this,
Dear therapists, My sister and I very recently found out
that we are donor conceived through two anonymous donors. She
is fifty nine and I am sixty one. We found
out quite accidentally through ancestry and twenty three and meters.

(01:38):
We have discovered not only that we are half sisters
from different donors, but that we each have many other
half siblings and other family members. Our mom, who is
now eighty seven, never told us and has spent our
entire lives actively lying about our parentage and our medical history,
as well as embellishing the stories of her pregnancies. Our father,
who we grew up with, died thirty eight years ago.

(02:00):
As you may imagine, finding this out at our ages
has been extremely upsetting on many levels. We feel entirely
betrayed by our own mother. Any help you could possibly
offer would be much appreciated.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Sondra, Well, here's another one. Of these situations in which
DNA testing reveals something about people's history that they didn't know.
And the issue is it really causes a psychological seismic
shift almost that makes you potentially question so many aspects
about who you are and so many aspects of your

(02:34):
relationships here with her mother, probably her father, her sister,
all these new people in her life. So it's this
one discovery that can truly be incredibly difficult to process
and manage and think through. I am glad that we're
going to be talking to both these sisters, because clearly
this is something that would be easier for them to
process together.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
What I think is so interesting is that whenever people
discover that there's been a secret in the family, it
does make you question what was real, what was not real.
And she mentioned that it's very upending to get this
information at their ages, but I think at any age
it's the kind of thing where you start to really
wonder what does this all mean? So I'm really interested
to talk to them and explore that with them.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, let's go talk to them.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
be back after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dea Therapists.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Hi, Sandra, Hi Kim, welcome to the show.

Speaker 4 (03:41):
Hi, Hi, thank you for having us our pleasure.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's great to have you both. Would like to start
with a little bit of a snapshot what your lives
were like before you found this out. So if we
rewind a few months and I asked you, tell me
a little bit about your lives, each of you tell
us and so we have a picture of the context
within which this happened. Sandra, maybe you can start.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Okay, I'm a teacher. I taught high school for the
past ten years, and I taught before that. I'm divorced.
I have a roommate, I have a long distance boyfriend.
I have two grown daughters in their twenties. They don't
live with me.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
What about you, Kim, tell us a little bit about
your life.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Happy life. My husband and I are both retired. We
are empty nesters. We are free to do what we want.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Everything was going great, and how well are your kids?

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Twenty eight and thirty two.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Would like to hear a little bit about how this
was discovered, who found out, how it was communicated to
the other.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Okay, I'm the one who quite accidentally found out. I
actually went on Ancestry in twenty sixteen, kind of just
for fun to see if there was anything interesting. Nothing
stood out to me really on there, and I actually
had not been back on Ancestry in years. So I

(05:02):
went back on and the first person under DNA relative
I saw was one of my children who did it.
She comes up as my daughter at fifty percent shared DNA,
and underneath her there is a man's name who I've
never seen, who came up as my second closest relative

(05:22):
at twenty seven percent shared DNA. So of course I
was a little flipped out. Ancestry, I think, tries to
soften the blow because they list him as a first cousin.
At that time, we all looked up what twenty seven
percent meant, and we saw that means that this person

(05:44):
is not in fact a first cousin, but a half sibling.
That this man would be my brother. So I called
my sister and I asked her if she ever heard
of this person's name before, you know who is he?
And she hadn't. And I sent him a message to
Ancestry and said, hey, I saw you came up at

(06:05):
twenty seven percent, I don't recognize your name, and he
immediately messaged me back and said, Hi, here's my cell number.
Let's discuss.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
So he knew.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
He knew. So at first we thought, oh, this can't
be right, you know, before we spoke with him, maybe
he's some secret love child of you know, one of
my uncles. And then the twenty seven percent just kept
telling me that's not true. So I went to my
sister's house and we called him together and talked to

(06:40):
him for a long time. That's how I first learned
the true story.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Can you tell us what he said on that phone call?

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yes, Well, he was very gentle with us. He was
very very kind, very gregarious. And the first thing he
asked us was, we're your father and obgyn at the
Specific hospital in Manhattan, and we said no, why, and

(07:12):
he said, let me tell you a story. So he
told us that in twenty twenty, his wife had read
a book called Inheritance and it was about DNA donors,
and his wife and his mom were close, and his
wife told his mom, his ninety plus year old mom,

(07:35):
about this book, and she confessed, well, actually that's how
I had my son from a sperm donor, we weren't
able to have children, and then he proceeded to go
on ancestry and do his DNA. So he told us
the story, recommended we read this book, and then he

(07:56):
started asking us questions about our father, after asking if
he had been a doctor or an OBGYN residence, because
that seems to be the pattern with everyone involved with this.
That's who all the donors are turning out to be
from this one specific hospital in this time period.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
They were all residents at the hospital at the time,
and that's why they were donating.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
They were all OBGYN residents in the fifties and sixties.
And we said, no, he wasn't. So he just said,
here's what I think you two should do, twenty three
and me because that's where all of the other half
siblings are. Just he also happened to be on both sites,

(08:43):
and you're going to find out all these names on there,
and he gave us a list of names, who, of
course all turned out to be my half siblings and
some of their children. Oh, and then he told us
that his best guess is that the two of us
are going to turn out to be half sisters and
not full sisters.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
What was that like. When he said that might be
the case, and Kim.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Would like to hear from you.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
I couldn't believe at all that this story could be true.
I thought maybe he was a love child from my
father and his mother. But I thought, there's no way
we're from donors. Our mother would have told us that
there is not a chance that could be true. And
then when he kept saying that it is true, I thought, well, okay,

(09:32):
perhaps Sandra is from a donor, but I truly believe
that I was from the man who raised me. And
so when he said that you're going to be from
different fathers and they're going to be different donors, I thought,
no way.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
My father definitely was My father.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
Was the reason that you felt that this was definitely
your father because you had a closer relationship with him
than Sandra did.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
I think I felt closer to him. I also felt
closer to his family. And if this story was true,
that meant my grandmother wasn't my biological grandmother, My aunts
weren't my biological aunts, My cousins weren't my biological cousins.
Like I could not believe any of that. We were
very close growing up. We grew up within five minutes
of now. We saw them every week. There's no way

(10:19):
that this story could be true.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Sandra, What was your relationship like with your father?

Speaker 3 (10:24):
I had a pretty good relationship with my father. I
mean it had its ups and downs. Well, I think
I probably felt more like the black sheep of the family.
I always felt different growing up. I internally just just
felt like there's something that's not right here. Besides the
superficial that the two of us don't look like, we're

(10:46):
also very different from each other. And I felt different
from my father's family, even though they were very good
to us and kind to us, something just always felt off.
We were asked our whole lives if we had the
same parents. Yeah, we do, Well, you don't look alike
and you're so different from each other. I mean it

(11:07):
even went as far as my sister used to ask
my mom if she was adopted. Yes, I did.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Why Kim, did you ask that question? Because you're saying
you felt really close to your father on his side
of the family. Were you feeling differently regarding your mom?

Speaker 4 (11:21):
Because I didn't look like anyone, and so I kept thinking,
am I adopted?

Speaker 3 (11:27):
I'm not adopted? Right?

Speaker 4 (11:28):
And then she would say no, of course you're not adopted.
So I was like, oh, okay, but I knew something
was off.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
This is what happens when there are secrets in a family.
We hear this all the time, that people always know
that something is off. That's the phrase that you just used,
and that's the phrase we always hear something was off.
I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew
that there was something that I just couldn't articulate that
didn't feel as it seemed.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
So, Kim, this man is telling you be prepared. You
might only be half sisters tell us what happened from them.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
So then I went to do the twenty three ye
ME test. I ordered it immediately and you know, waited
anxiously for those results. And when they came in, I
was completely shocked. Even though I was told to be prepared,
I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
What were the results.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
The results were.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
That I also was from a donor and not the
same one as my sister. And when I opened up
the results at the first person he comes up in
order of how much DNA you share, And this person
comes up at the very top and it says fifty
percent share DNA, this is your father, has his name

(12:48):
Robert and his picture, and I just gasped.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
What happened when you saw not only his name but
his picture.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
I was just in shock.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Were there any similarities you saw in the image that
made you feel like, oh, maybe this is my father
or did it feel like, no, this man is not.
Like how much did it resonate that this person actually
is your biological father?

Speaker 3 (13:12):
It felt like it was not.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
So there was a resistance to it, to that notion.
Even though the DNA is there at fifty percent, it
just doesn't feel real.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yes, when I opened up my results, I figured I'm
going to see someone on there from my father's side
of the family who maybe just did the test and
never told me they did. That's what I was expecting
to see. And he came up at the top at
fifty percent, and then underneath a whole bunch of half
siblings came up at like twenty five percent.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
When you say a whole bunch and Soandra, you also
said there was a list of were talking two or three,
were talking, five, six, ten, Like give us a sense
of how many people now, yeah, for me it's about
ten and Sondra.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
For you, I think it's about four or five. And
some obvious nephews or nieces came up also. I'm sure
there or more out there and they just haven't been
discovered yet. But what was really shocking to me was
when I did twenty three and meters afterwards also at
the same time, and we're talking just about two months ago,

(14:13):
and to open my account and to see my sister Kim,
who I grew up with, with her picture and her name,
to say half sister, even though I knew it was
going to come up, it was shocking. It was jarring.

Speaker 4 (14:31):
Yes, I felt the same way to see that she's
twenty five percent and so are all of these strangers.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
What were those first conversations like between the two of
you once that confirmation came in and you knew at
least what you were dealing with.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
She called me and I was actually with one of
my daughters in the car, and we were in shock.
I mean, we started from shocking, disbelief and anger, grief.
I'm mostly in grief in the grief part, trying to
accept now, but we're angry and angry at our mother.

(15:11):
Very disappointed, and for you, Kim, after shock, I also
felt to anger because how could she not tell me?
And the truth is I gave her.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
Every opportunity because after Sandra got the result from ancestry
and knew that she had a half sibling, and he
had told me that this probably was going to be
my story as well, I thought, Okay, I'm going to
tell my mother that I'm going to do twenty three
and me, I told her, well, we want to find

(15:43):
out about our health. But I said, and also, I
think it's so interesting. They give you all of the ancestors,
They tell you everybody who you are related to, and
the present of DNA you share, and they will say
what relationship they are to you. She had a cousin
years ago who took probably years to draw out a

(16:03):
whole family tree, and I said, in the family tree
will just pop up on the computer. So this way
she knew exactly what I would find out. So I thought,
if this story is true, I'm giving her now until
I get my results, three to four weeks for her
to come clean, because I wanted to hear it from her.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
And not from a computer, not from a stranger. And
she did not come through for me.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
Is there a reason that in that conversation instead of
testing her to see if she would come clean to you,
was there a reason that you didn't want to say
to her, Hey, mom, Sandra did this DNA test. This
is what she found. I'm now doing a DNA test.
Is there something that we don't know?

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Well?

Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think part of it was I was thinking perhaps
my father was the donor, and I thought, what if
she doesn't know that, And so I figured I'll just
throw it out there, see what she says. But she
didn't say anything. So then I thought, I'm not sure
what's going on, and perhaps he really was my biological father.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
When you say she didn't say anything, what did she
actually say?

Speaker 4 (17:11):
She mentioned about the health. She said, Oh, I don't
know why you would want to know that beforehand. I
like to be in the dark.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
So she did say something. When you said she said nothing,
she was actually trying to dissuade you from getting the
information because she knew what would come up.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
Probably yeah, But she just said, you know, she likes
to be in the dark about everything.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
She was hoping you would not take the DNA test.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Probably, So tell us what happened once you have those results.
How did you decide when to speak to her, how
to talk to her. We'd like to hear how that
went down.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Well. I just want to add also that I told
her before Kim that I was doing twenty three and meters,
and my sister just told her more about what we
would find. I told her, I'm doing it because I
really want to get the health panel, but it will
also show me who my relatives are and our ancestry.

(18:08):
And her response was you believe that stuff? I said, yeah, mom,
it's science. And that was it. But there was another
point in twenty sixteen when I did the original ancestry test,
and this comes up in the conversation with what you
asked I. I told her in twenty sixteen that I
was doing ancestry and she yelled at me. She got

(18:32):
very angry with me and said that you know you
already know what your ancestry is. Why would you spend
your money on that? And I said, I just want
to do it. She was livid with me.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
So there was a real pattern there of her trying
to dissuade you each from doing these kinds of tests,
from finding out what she probably anticipated you might find. Out.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yes, So what happened once you got the results of
the tests each of you? Did you go and talk
to your mom again with the results we did.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
We discussed it between us for a few days and
then decided today's the day. About three or four days later,
we're going to go over to her house and see her.
We see each other a lot, we talk all the time.
So I texted her, I said, we're coming over to
see her. We both got there and we told her

(19:32):
sit down on the couch and we took out some
chairs and sat in her living room across from her,
and my sister told her, well, we got our twenty
three and me test back. Mom, is there anything you'd
like to share with us? I told her that we
were confused and shocked by our results. She said, what

(19:56):
could you have found out? I don't know what you're
talking about. So she still wasn't coming clean, and she
had to know that's why we're there. She was never
ever going to tell us. She was taking it to
the grief. So she denied it, and she said, I
don't know what you could have found out. And after

(20:17):
a few times for saying that, I just couldn't hold
it back. Anymore. And I said, how about that, My
poor sister has to open up her twenty three and
meis and have it say, here's your father with his
picture and his name, and to see all her half
siblings and for me to see that she's my half sister.

(20:38):
Let's start there, Mom, do you want to explain that?
Then she said it's true.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
Finally, I said so, in other words, you weren't going
to confess until you were caught. And she said that's right,
because she said your father and I had a pact.
We were going to tell no one, So she was
never going to tell us until we atally told her
what we found out.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
She said, I was praying, and our mother doesn't pray, Okay,
I was praying you wouldn't find out. We were never
going to tell you, and I didn't want anyone from
your father's family to ever know this. And let me
tell you, there are only a few people left, only
a few cousins, and they don't live near us, and

(21:24):
she's not even in contact with them.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Did she explain to you why they had made this
pact and why it was so important that nobody find out. No,
it sounds like she and your father really loved you both,
and so I'm wondering if you both were curious at
all underneath all of the anger and sense of shock

(21:49):
and betrayal. I wonder if you were curious about why
they might have made that packed. In other words, maybe
they were trying to protect you or do you have
any sense of what their reasoning is? As much as
you disagree with it, did you have any curiosity about that?

Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yes, I do have curiosity about that.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
And we haven't spoken to her about this since that day,
and I don't know if I ever want to bring
it up with her again.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
But I am curious why it had to be so secretive.
I actually know the answer to that, not from her personally,
but from all the research we've done since then, and
from the people that we know who we've spoken with,
like my sister's siblings. A few of them got to
talk to her father. Her biological father only died two

(22:40):
years ago, and from what he said and the other said,
records were never kept. There was just a sign up sheep,
and it was supposed to be a secret. From what
I understand, back in the sixties and maybe the seventies,
no one was supposed to be told, which is outrageous
that we're denied our medical records, our biological history. So

(23:05):
I'm guessing that she was told not to say anything
because of that at the time. But the problem I
have is she knows this is not the sixties or
the seventies, and that she purposely was withheld the information.
And our father, who raised us died thirty eight years ago,
and from what we've read, most of the moms who

(23:29):
were alive after the father's died told the children the
truth about their parentage, and our mothers still didn't.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
Might have siblings have now shared with me letters from
our biological father because they did get to speak with
him and exchange letters and to video calls with him
and all that. And he said everything was anonymous. No
one knew who the sperm donor was, and the sperm
donor had no idea who was receiving the sperm. That's

(23:57):
just how it was back then. It was very secretive,
which could just be maybe why my parents wanted it
so secretive. I'll assume the doctors said this is a
very secretive thing, don't tell anyone.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
So that was two months ago. What else transpired in
that conversation and what has your contact been like with
her since then.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
What had transpired was that she was very important to
her that we do not tell our first cousins on
our father's side this story. I don't know why it
still has to be so secretive. She just said, don't
tell your cousins, and I'm trying to figure out, well,
does she have the right to tell me that? Is

(24:38):
it her secret? Is it my secret? Who owns this secret?
Can I live my true life and not have to
hide my identsity?

Speaker 1 (24:46):
What I find so interesting about this is both of
you had so many questions, and you came over to
talk to your mom about what you had discovered, and
neither of you asked all of the questions that were
swirling around in your mind. Is that something that has
been the relationship with your parents growing up where there

(25:07):
wasn't a lot of open communication in general, because there
were so many questions that you had, and you're making
so many guesses about what the answers are without having
asked her. When you had the opportunity to ask her.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
We did ask her, and she just kept repeating the
same things. It was a pact I made with your father.
It was a packed that was the same answer that
kept coming up.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Well, Sandra, I mean the question such as, why can't
we tell Dad's side of the family, Why can't we
tell the cousins? That was a question, but you didn't
ask her. Do you know why?

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, we didn't ask.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Lourie's asking you why you didn't ask it.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Our mom is generally very secretive, and when you try
to push for more answers, she sometimes just shuts off.
And I can tell you that through the years, she
has told me that I tell my children too much.
I mean, my children are adults now. She has repeatedly said,

(26:06):
you don't need to tell them everything. You tell them
too much. So I understand the kind of person that
I'm dealing with. I also understand she is a product
of her generation. She's almost eighty eight. But she's very secretive.
The secret was more important to her than our medical history.

(26:27):
I mean, I've asked her so many times about different
medical things and she will say nothing on either side
of the family. And she also has embellished her pregnancy
stories that we never asked to hear through the years,
with lies about how she got pregnant and it was

(26:47):
so easy, this and that. She's told us stories about
cousins she hadn't the past, who are doctors who were
sperm downers when they were medical students. And we've always
told her we would always want to know the truth
about anything. We've told her over and over we don't
like to be in the dark, and she always says, well,

(27:08):
I like to be and we say, but we're not
you mom. But when we confronted her, she didn't remember
telling us those donor stories are.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
So, she claimed, sore you sounded angry at the beginning
of that conversation with her, were able to express that
you were angry and upset and hurt and disappointed?

Speaker 3 (27:26):
I told her I was hurt. I told her I
was angry, And at the end of the conversation I
will say, I said, and do you have anything else
further that you would like to add to this? And
she said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I think, to me,
it was like when you asked a toddler to say
they're sorry and they're not and they say it. I

(27:47):
really believe she was sorry she got caught. I still
think that she thinks she did the right thing.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
And Kim, what were you able to express to your
mom in that conversation about how you were feeling.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
She knew I was hurt.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
I was really most worried about her because of her agent.
I didn't want to upset her. So you know, Sandra
was definitely angry, and I was taking the other role,
like I was feeling bad for Mom and worried about her,
and so you know, Mom was upset. She just said,
I'm afraid you won't love me anymore. So I was like, no,

(28:23):
I love you. I'll always love you, Mom, and I
hugged her, So it's like I was consoling her, but
I was actually really hurting inside.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
And you said you didn't think she knew that, but
you didn't express it, probably.

Speaker 4 (28:34):
Not as much as I should have. Yeah, that's because
Sandra was pretty angry.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
So you felt like she couldn't take the feelings of
both of you at the same time.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, I was afraid.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, at the end of that conversation, she said she
was sorry in a way that Sandra you didn't feel
was genuine.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
I don't really think that she is able to comprehend
how egregious what she did was, and I don't think
at her age that she is going to get it.
We talked for about an hour and a half that day,

(29:12):
and we've seen her and talked to her a lot
since then, but not about that. Oh one thing, I
do want to say that I remember my sister did
one more time. You did talk to her about the
next day, and she asked her, weren't you worried that
we could maybe accidentally date one of our brothers. I mean,
my sister has a lot of brothers. Oh, that's right.

(29:35):
I did say that to her, right, I forgot about that.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
She said it never crossed their minds because I have
a lot of siblings. We all grew up in the
same city, and these are only the ones who've done
the DNA tests. There could be dozens more of us
out there, so she was nu. It never crossed her
mind that we would possibly meet and eat someone who
had seen biological father as us, which is very dangerous.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Did she explain that the reason that they did it
was because your father was infertile?

Speaker 2 (30:05):
We did at the time was a point of shame
for a lot of men, and that's probably related to
why that was a secret. I'm curious though about the
fact you said the next day you had a bit
more of the conversation, but since then, You've seen her
multiple times and this hasn't come up. So since then,
everyone's pretending like everything's okay. How come you don't have

(30:28):
to go in there with guns blazing or with guilt bombs.
But to sweep it under the rug so quickly and
to pretend that now all is well when that this
isn't the thing you're thinking about all the time seems
a little unusual, and I'm curious about why you're doing that.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
I could say for me, I am never like this,
and it is only in this instance that I've been
like this because of her aid. But the other reason
is I don't think I'll be able to get thurther her.
She doesn't under understand how knowing this could have changed
the trajectory of our lives. And she can't give me

(31:07):
those years back of my life walking around not knowing
who I really was. You know, when you asked about
our childhood before, we were never alotted that much. I mean,
we were both straight A students. I probably would have
made different choices. I know this might sound a little strange,

(31:29):
but if I had known that my father was a doctor,
I might have had a little bit more self esteem
and confidence in myself that I didn't have as a
seventeen year old. I didn't have until much later in life.
So I feel like I don't even want to go
into it with her anymore, even though yes, we are
taking the hit personally to ourselves by not addressing it

(31:52):
with her again.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
You said that had you known this as young women,
you think the trajectory of your lives would have been different.
About what you imagine?

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Well, what I imagine is I had a half scholarship
to many private schools on the East Coast, and I
didn't use them because it would have been a financial
burden to take out loans for the other half. I
got my BA early and went on later to work

(32:22):
in media and to be a teacher. But if I
had known this at seventeen, or even at twenty three,
when my father who raised us past, I think I
probably would have made different choices. I probably would have
taken out the loans and gone to one of the
private schools.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
How would knowing these things have made you want to
do something different?

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Because I think I would have had more self esteem,
I would have felt more confidence biologically, and I always
felt different. Like I said, not only you know people
telling us, We look different, we act different, and just
nothing made one hundred percent sense to me. Now things

(33:05):
are making sense, even though it's really sad to find
it out at this age.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Can I ask how your father died when it sounds
like he was rather young.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah, he died of a heart attack in his early fifties.
And again their medical issues have come up before and
she always said nothing on either side. And you know,
doctor recently gave me a hard stressed test a little
worried because my father died so young of a heart attack.
So just another example.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
And Kim for you whether it also thoughts about whether
your life would have been different had you known this earlier.

Speaker 4 (33:43):
I do agree with Sandra that I would have had
higher self esteem. My mother definitely did not praise us,
and she criticized us a lot and did not encourage
us to pursue career. And just knowing that my biological
father was a doctor would have definitely given me more confidence.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
These feelings that you have toward your mother about not
telling you earlier, do you also have them toward your
father for not telling you.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
I don't have any bad feelings towards my father at
all about it.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
How come.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
I would have been.

Speaker 4 (34:19):
Quite young to handle this type of information. I was
only twenty one when he passed, so I feel like
he's off the hook.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
So you're saying you would have liked to have had
this secret throughout your whole childhood, because my understanding earlier
was that you wanted to know when you were younger.
But now you're saying you don't feel like you could
have handled the information at twenty one.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
I'm saying as a child, I wouldn't have been able
to handle it.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
What about you, Sandra, would you have liked to have
known when you were growing up?

Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yes? Absolutely, I would have liked to have known, probably
by junior high or high school, and certainly by the
time I was going into college a month after I
turned seventeen, or last chance, how about a little bit
after he passed at twenty three. Absolutely, I absolutely would
have wanted to have known.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
So I'm wondering for you, do you feel any of
that anger towards your father because both of them made
this decision together.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
A little bit, It's like I even give them a
pass for the sixties and the early seventies because of
the reading I've done and the time I knew that
that was what was done, even though it certainly wasn't
morally or ethically right. But I don't give him a
full pass. He gets much more of a pass because

(35:37):
he died thirty eight years ago, but I do hold
him partially responsible.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
So you've had many decades each of you to develop
your identity, your sense of self, your narrative about who
you are in the world. How has this changed that.
Is that something you're talking about together or is that
something you're trying to process separately.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
I would say I'm processing it separately. I have been
talking with a therapist about it because it's been just
having the rug pulled out from underneath my childhood. I'm
replaying a lot of scenarios now and they're all sounding
different than having more memories of things that were said
or not said. So I have a lot of grief processing,

(36:24):
you know, what was lost, what was untrue, what I
might have done differently. So I've been reading and talking
with a therapist besides Kim to try to process it.
But the other grief that I have is the grief
about my mom. I'm so sorry that she put me
in this position, that this is going to forever change

(36:48):
the memories and the relationship I have with her while
she's still alive, and it's going to change how I
look back on her. And that makes me very sad
to know that the one person that I thought that
I could trust betrayed me with the biggest betrayal that
I think that she probably could have forgone. It's not

(37:11):
that she's not good to me in other ways, And
I know, Laurie, you always say two things can be
true at the same time.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
When we talk about two things can be true at
the same time, what I think about is that she
tried to protect you and it came off as harming you,
and she did not and does not see that. So
it's one thing for her to think I'm protecting them

(37:40):
this whole time, But it's another thing when the daughters say, actually,
that didn't protect us. And I think that's where your
anger is mostly focused. They think there's a double betrayal.
There's the first betrayal of we weren't told, and then
the second betrayal is and when we bring this to light,
we're told your feelings about this or not valid.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
I would say so, And even if that's what she
and other parents were told in the sixties and seventies,
and that they were protecting us we're grown adults. I
think somewhere in there the switch to protect her reputation,
to protect this pact which is with my dad, which
as far as I'm concerned, was null and void within

(38:22):
several months after he died thirty eight years ago. In
my mind, she owed that loyalty to us to let
us know our identity, So I think it turned from
protecting us to protecting her.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Sandra, I think you're right. And after he passed was
also a different era and people were thinking about these
things differently, And the fact that she wouldn't tell you
then is to protect her, but also to protect him,
And that's also another film of betrayal, that their needs
superseded yours.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
I don't know why she said some of the things
she said. Was it kind of funny to her telling
us about doctor cousins who donated while they were in
med school and now saying, oh, I never said that,
Or making up stories about her pregnancies and which were
obviously total wies.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
My guess, Sandra, is that she wasn't able to really
get in touch with her own feelings about the fact
that she was keeping this secret that she felt because
at the time, doctors would say, don't tell. That was
the instruction that they gave to parents. Don't tell. Pretend
this didn't happen. So she probably, outside of her awareness,

(39:33):
had some mixed feelings about all of this. It was
hard to hold all of that secret on her own,
very hard to hold such a big secret with just
your husband, and they probably never talked about it because
there was so much shame around it. And I imagine
these things leaked out not because she was consciously trying
to do anything, but because this is something she was

(39:56):
thinking about, and they came out in inappropriate ways. She
was able to buy herself contain this huge secret that
she lived with. By the way every day when she
wasn't in denial, so she'd be in denial for most
of the time, and then she'd have a little leak
in the denial mechanism and something would come out, and
then she'd go back in, like a turtle putting its

(40:17):
head out and then going back in its shell.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Secrets often leak in that way. But I think you've
yet to get to the point where you're really focusing
on your identity, on what it does or doesn't change
for you on how you're feeling about yourself in any
ways that are different or not. And I think that
they're stages to dealing with shocking news, and they unfold

(40:41):
one at a time, often with some overlap. But I
think that this is still very early for you, and
so you're very much pre occupied with the secret, with
the lies, with the relationship, and I'm suggesting that to
come is going to be some work you're going to
have to do about that sense of identity and what
it changed. Have you talked about whether it changes anything

(41:02):
in your relationship with sisters?

Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yes, I could say that that is a benefit because
we've always gone along, but we've always been very different
from each other, and now we kind of know why.
But it's made us closer because who else could have
such a crazy secret held for so many years from
them by their mother, So in that way it's made

(41:29):
us closer. And I too, have talked with some of
the half siblings, an a nephew, and they've been great
and we plan to meet up.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
But sometimes, is there any relief in finally having an
answer to these questions that have been percolating in you
for so long about why you felt different or why
you felt that something wasn't right.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
I guess there is some relief. That's a good point.
I guess there is, But concurrently there is also so
a lot of grief and anger. But yeah, relief and
grief at once.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
It sounds like both of your biological fathers passed away
before you got this information. Is that right?

Speaker 3 (42:14):
I don't know about mine. Santra doesn't know her father.
I don't know if he's alive. He'd be probably ninety ish,
so he hasn't been found. I've been looking. I've written many,
many emails to people on twenty three ae meters, and
I haven't been able to find a link to the donors.

(42:36):
I guess they call it social family. The only people
I've spoken with are half siblings, so I haven't had
success in that way, and I don't know if I'll
ever find the link. I'd love to find the link,
whether he's alive or not. My sister has a very
different story on that end.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Was that like for you, Sandra, to watch Kim be
able to read letters from her biological father and have
a lot more information than you do.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
I'm happy for her. I wish I would have the
same experience I have to accept I may never so
it's sad for me. I very well may never have
that experience, and I wish I did, but I may
never have it.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
A lot of different emotions, but certainly the grief and
the loss is one of them.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
That's true. I know you asked my sister if she
looked like her dad. I found that I physically resemble
a couple of my half siblings a lot, and seeing
that for the first time, they sent me pictures and
it was really startling. I knew I looked nothing like
my father's family, and I thought I look like my

(43:48):
mom's family. I look a little bit like them, way
more like my father's family, And it was just startling
to see you've seen.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
When you saying it's just startling, there was a real
sadness there in your eyes.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (44:04):
It just brings back the whole lie, my whole life,
not being able to know the truth when I always
felt something was amiss and I didn't know what, and
seeing that really brought it to light.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Seeing their pictures, like.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Wow, right, when you see a resemblance to a sibling
you didn't know you had, brings back so many moments
of that doubt, and so many historical moments of feeling
something very strongly and not having the validation for it correct.
You mentioned him the question of so what do we
do visa vir Dad's family and our cousins. Do we

(44:42):
tell them or do we not tell them? Let's start
with what you want to do, and then we'll get
to what the concerns might be. But what would you
like to do each of you?

Speaker 4 (44:52):
I would like to tell them because I'm close with
them and I don't want to keep this from them.
I feel like by omitting it, I'm lying in a way.
If I would see them and speak to them and
they say what's new, and I say nothing much, what's
new with you?

Speaker 3 (45:05):
I feel like it's a lie that would be And Soandra,
I would like to tell them also, But you know
my mother sat there at that day saying, don't tell them,
don't tell them. That's why I didn't tell you.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
What does she think will happen if they find out?
I have no idea, But you haven't asked, right. There's
a really interesting message that goes on here, which is
we want to keep everything in the open. We're people
who bring things up. We don't like it when things
are hidden, and yet we don't actually have these conversations.

(45:41):
We don't ask our mother, well, why what do you
think would happen if we told the cousins. We don't
say all the things that we're thinking or ask all
the questions that we're wondering about. How do you think
about that? On the one hand, you feel like you're
people who are very open, and on the other hand,
your people who are very afraid things up.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
That's a really good question for Kim. I always had
a fear of my mother growing up.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
She you know, instilled in me, you know, to do
certain things, don't do certain things, and like, I never
wanted to anger her, even now at my age, and
she tells me, don't tell your cousins, I'm like, okay,
as opposed to.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Why, except Kim, of the two of you, you're the
one who said I'd like to tell them, and Sandra
was the one who said, I'm really torn, right.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
What would she do? Like, how would she react when
you were a kid? What was the thing that was
so scary about her that you were afraid of her?

Speaker 4 (46:34):
Oh, she would just disapprove of me. She'd scream at me,
she'd hit me, I just was petrified.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
What's an example of that where she would hit you
or she would scream at you. Can you recall an
incident I don't know, just when we.

Speaker 4 (46:46):
Were little, And I don't think Sandra and I were
bad kids in any way, but we'd be very afraid
and she comes, you know, towards us, and we'd be like,
oh no, no, no, and we tried to lock ourselves
in our bedroom sash, she couldn't open the door.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
And you were really scared of her. Then, can you
remember an example of something you did that triggered that
anger from her, that the specific incident that you can
tell us about.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
No, not really.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
She just seemed angry all the time, which is odd
because she'll say that when we were little girls, it
was the happiest time in her life. But I only
remember her being angry at us.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
What about your dad? Were you afraid of him?

Speaker 3 (47:25):
No?

Speaker 4 (47:25):
And I know Santra and I have different different experiences
with this. We have discussed this. I just remember having
a great relationship with my father. I don't remember him
ever yelling at me or hitting me or disapproving of me.
It was just from my mom. And Sandra remembers both.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
What do you remember, Sandra, I remember my dad differently.
By and large, the relationship was okay, we got along
well in certain ways. But I do remember that I
got hit as a kid by him, you know. And
again I'm not excusing it, but I do know that

(48:05):
it was more common at that time.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Are you talking about he would spank you with the.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Strap for being quote bad? And again I have a
little bit different experience. And I remember him once when
I was a teen, telling me I was like an
albatross around his neck.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Do you know what prompted that comment?

Speaker 3 (48:26):
I don't remember. And again, compared to most teens, it's
a pretty good kid. You know. I was a really
good kid, So I would say that, I guess even
during childhood and certainly later on in adulthood, my sister
was definitely the quote favorite, and even though she might

(48:48):
still be afraid of our mom, I would say she
was the favorite. I still would hear like about once
a once twice a year. Now event she made betterfe choices,
and you know, I got divorced. It wasn't a good marriage.
But my sister, you know, was always smarter in the
way that she made better choices. And now I feel like, wow, Mom,

(49:11):
she turns out to have made the worst choice of
all here by not telling us about our identity, isn't
lying and betraying us.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
In every family, there are stories this child is like this,
this child is like this. People get labeled, they get
stories around them, and then these narratives as children kind
of seep in and we internalize them, and when they
continue into adulthood, it's very hard to change the narrative.
For example, a different narrative around divorces. I made a

(49:41):
really good choice by ending that marriage. I made a
really good choice in the new partner that I have.
I made a really good choice in the way that
I parent. So there's lots of stories you can tell
around that one issue. But the story that you're still
fighting with her about is that you make bad choices

(50:03):
and that Kim makes better choices. And I think that
when we talk about what this new story that has
come into your lives, the story of the person that
we grew up with is not our biological father and
we have different fathers, there's an opportunity, I think, as
you're getting clear on what the accurate story is to
make the other stories in your life more accurate too,

(50:27):
so that you're not walking around with these stories that
are so old and so inaccurate. What was the message Kim,
that you would get growing up about yourself? Either good one?
What was your message?

Speaker 3 (50:38):
I was definitely seen as the easier one.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
I didn't give them much trouble purposely, and I knew
that there was definitely conflict with them in Sandra and
I'm the younger ones, so I just tried to follow
all the rules not making trouble.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
We were talking earlier about not keeping the secret yourselves,
of sharing this information with your family that might make
trouble for your mom. Do you still feel like you
need to have that role and not making trouble?

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (51:06):
Exactly why I am torn about saying anything. I don't
want to anger her.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
So because you keep preferencing her age is almost eighty eight,
we don't to upset her, et cetera. There's a difference
between upsetting an eighty eight year old and angering an
eighty eight year old. Upsetting her is like, oh will
she be okay? Angering her? Is will I be okay?
And I want to ask which is it? Is it
angering or is it upsetting? It's probably both For you, Soandra.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
It's probably both.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
So Sandra and Kim, we have some advice for you.
We're thinking about the fact that both of you felt
so upset about the fact that this secret was kept
from you for so many years, when it could have
been really significant to learn earlier. And we know you're
really struggling with this idea of keeping the sea now

(52:01):
from your cousins who you have a relationship with when
they're asking you how are you doing? And the biggest
thing that's happened in many years is something you feel
you can't talk about. Then that's spilling into a separate
relationship you have, and we know that makes you uncomfortable.
So we do think you should tell your cousins, and
we also think you should tell your mom that you're
going to tell your cousins. However, yes, however, I know

(52:25):
both of you had that face like, eh, however, fair enough,
But this is what we want you to tell your mom.
We want you to change your mom's story about what happened,
because her story is from sixty something years ago. Her
story is about the mores of the time that they
did something shameful and they were told by the doctors

(52:46):
not to tell anyone. What would like you to tell
your mom is mom, Look, we're going to talk to
our cousins and tell them the truth about what happened,
because here's how we see that truth. We see that
you and dad so wanted a family that you were
willing to do something really brave and something that was

(53:09):
at the time considered shameful at the time, considered something
one shouldn't even talk about, but was really brave both
you and Dad, and you went ahead with this decision.
And then once you did, you were told not to
tell us, and you held onto that because you were
told at the time it would be better for us
not to know. And even though we would have loved

(53:31):
to have known, that's what you were told and you
kept to it, and Dad took it to his grave,
and you would have as well, other than the fact
that we found out, But we understand the bravery that took,
and we know how much you did that to protect
us because you loved us and you wanted this family

(53:51):
from before we were born. And that's the story. We
want to tell our cousins, how brave our mom and
dad were for wanting us so much that they did
something so so difficult that's the first task. You tell her,
and then you tell your cousins. Now, she might have
a strong reaction and she say no, I don't want that,

(54:12):
and then you'll reiterate. You'll say, Mum, you don't want
it because you think it's shameful. We don't. We're here
because of that choice, We exist because of that choice.
We want to celebrate that choice, as difficult as it
is for us.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
For you.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
We want to be proud of you for doing it,
and we want you to feel proud of yourself for
having the strength to do it. You'll try and get
her to change her story, and you should tell your
cousins regardless. You're letting her know you're doing it. It's
not a question to her. You're letting her know. But
if she can change her story just a little bit,
it might open her up to having more discussions with
you about it, if she knows that there's a different

(54:48):
way to think about this.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
And there's this question that you both had about whose
story is this? And it's everybody's story. But there's this
famous quote from Carl Jung that secrets are like psychic poison.
And I think that if you collude with the secret
you're colluding with the shame, and so given how much
you wanted to know this information and now that the

(55:10):
truth is out there, we don't want you to be
the people colluding with the secret. We want you to
feel free to share the truth of who you are.
So that's the first task. The second task, we talked
a lot about grief and loss and a lot of

(55:30):
fantasies about what it would have been like had you
known earlier, the loss of the time, the grief around
not having been told in time to potentially meet your
biological fathers, and we would like you to go a
little bit into that grief because we feel like this

(55:52):
is very new to both of you and there's a
lot of anger, but the tender, sad part still hasn't
really been processing as much. And so we would like
you each to write a letter to your donor and
say all of the things that you would like to

(56:13):
have said had you been able to meet them. And
this is going to bring you straight to the heart
of your grief and loss in a way that is
going to really help you get in touch with that,
because I don't think you'll be able to move through

(56:33):
this experience if you aren't getting in touch at that
really really tender, deep level with the grief and the loss.
And you were saying earlier, I think, Sandra, you said,
we really should have had the opportunity to get to
know where we came from. So what would you have

(56:53):
said if you could have gotten to know those men?
So we'd like you to write those letters, and then
we would like you to read those letters to each
other so you can be there to support each other,
and so you can have someone there to witness your
grief and your loss. And they might be different, so

(57:15):
you went through a similar experience, but we want there
to be space for you each to process this in
a way that happens organically for each of you.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
So there's the grief of this, but there are also
some positive things that happened from it and some potentially
empowering things that happened from learning what your true story is.
And you mentioned it brought you in touch with half
siblings you didn't know. It allowed you to right now

(57:44):
confront some aspects of your childhood. Would like you each
to make a list of the ways in which this
experience has been empowering for you individually, and that might
be different for each of you, But what are the
ways in which this has enriched your lives and potentially
could going forward when you think of the future. Make

(58:04):
a list of those different things and describe them, and
then we'd like you to share that with one another,
because fundamentally, as sisters, you're going through this together and
this is bringing you close, and that should be one
of the items on that list. As you mentioned, here
are the ways in which it's been empowering. Here's how
I might grow from this.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
And one of the things that happens when we reflect
on that is we start to make sense of things
that didn't make sense in the past. So when your father,
Sandra said you were in Albatrass, I imagine that that
was the burden of the secret that was leaking out.
That you were not the burden, that the secret was
his burden. People displace their unprocessed thoughts, feelings, emotions, and

(58:51):
all the things that your mom did. Things are incomprehensible
to both of you, the things that she mentioned about
adoption and donors, the leaks, all of the leaks on
your list. I hope that you'll both think about how
having these truths helps you make sense of the past.
In a way that isn't so painful. So some of
the things that were said and done are now in

(59:13):
the context of, oh, they had feelings about this big
secret that they were holding too. Two people knew about
the secret and two people didn't. But everybody was feeling
the burden of the secret. And that does not mean
that the two of you were burdens. The two of
you were why they went to such great lengths to
do this. But when you have a secret, it's going

(59:36):
to leak out in all kinds of ways that are unhealthy.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
It was all very good advice.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
I'm really glad that the sisters reached out to us,
and also that they have each other, because the revelation
of a secret has so many ripple effects, and it
can feel so isolating and so confusing and so lonely.
And while they're each going to be on their own
journey with this, they also have this common moment of discovery.

(01:00:10):
And they grew up with the same parents and they're
dealing with the same kind of family issues around secrecy
and shame and all of the leakage that came out
over the years that didn't make sense to them that
now is starting to make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
I agree, And what I'm glad for is that despite
the fact that they've had different experiences growing up and
very different experiences now as well, Sondra having much less
information comparatively, and yet it's been able to bring them
together and to strengthen their bond.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
And I like how we talked about the both and
of a situation that there's some relief and freedom that
comes with I wasn't crazy, I knew something wasn't right,
and then also all of the reactions that come with
and what do we do now? Some people are still
uncomfortable with it. So I'll be really interested to see
how these assignments go this week for both of them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Absolutely, you're listening to DEA Therapists. We'll be back after
a short break. So, Laurie, we heard from Sandra and Kim,

(01:01:28):
and I am so curious to hear how these assignments
went for them.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Hi, this is Sandra. We completed our first assignment by
going to our mother's house. We started out by letting
her know that we commend her and my father for
their bravery and let her know we understand that they
chose to use a donor because they so desperately wanted children.
It did open up more discussion. We told her we

(01:01:56):
were going to be letting our cousins know because we
wouldn't be kolude in the secret. On one hand, I
thought it went better than I had anticipated, as I
had been afraid that she would yell at me and
throw me out of her house when we told her this,
and she didn't, so I was happy about that. However,
when we continued to ask her why they kept this

(01:02:18):
a secret and why she continued to carry this secret
for decades after our father died, she just kept stating,
because that's what we decided to do when you were born.
When we asked her that now, seeing how much pain
this has caused us, if she would do it that
way all over again, if she had the chance to
change things regarding holding the secret, she said that she

(01:02:41):
would do it exactly the same way again. For the
second assignment, writing the letter to my sperm donor father,
I found it to be cathartic and I was able
to express a range of emotions, including excitement, grief, and anger.
I was curious about him and what he looks like

(01:03:03):
and his personality. His interests is family, is medical history?
I wanted to know if there are any similarities between us,
and also if he has ever given thought to how
many donor children he may have, and if he was
at all curious about us, About me, I told him
about myself, about my life, about my children, and let

(01:03:26):
him know that it would have meant a lot to
me if I had known that he existed, even if
I didn't get to know him, just if I knew
that he was out there, it would have been beneficial
to me. I found it empowering to write my list
of positives regarding this discovery, including the fact that sharing

(01:03:47):
this experience has made my sister and me closer, and
I've gotten to speak with some pretty cool new closely
related family members that I had known about before. Additionally,
I think it gives me a sense of relief, as
it explains why I always felt different, so things finally

(01:04:09):
make more sense. I finally know my story.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
Hi, Laurie and guy, this is Kim. I completed my
assignments and I wanted to give you the update. Sandra
and I went over to our mom's house to give
her the new positive narrative of our story. It did
not go as well as I had hoped Mom was
kind of closed off, defensive. I told her how brave
I thought she and Dad were and how much I

(01:04:35):
appreciated the lengths they went through to have a family,
and that I want to celebrate that story. I told
her that I am very proud of her for what
she did, and that I want her to be proud
of herself too and feel no shame. She then said,
I am proud of myself. I feel no shame. So
I then asked them why did it have to be

(01:04:56):
a secret then, and she said, because that's what we do.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Decided.

Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
I thought you'd be teased, so I guess she was
trying to protect us when we were children, but we
are sixty years old. I then told her that we
want to feel free to share the truth of who
we are, so we are telling our cousins the story,
and she angrily said, go ahead and tell your cousins.

(01:05:21):
I don't care. I don't even talk to them. I
then got up to leave. I gave her a hug
and told her that I loved her. She then said
sorry in a harsh tone. I said sorry for what,
and she had no response. I said sorry that we

(01:05:41):
are in pain, and she said yes, writing The letter
to my biological father to express my grief and loss
was both cathartic and healing. I also expressed my gratitude
to him for giving his donation so that I can exist.
My life is definitely been enriched by this new discovery.

(01:06:01):
There are a lot of positives. Sandra and I are
close to now than we have ever been. We have
definitely bonded over this experience. We had a very meaningful
and emotional conversation with our cousins, and they were extremely
comforting and supportive of us and our story. I am
really looking forward to getting to know and forming relationships

(01:06:24):
with my many half siblings. Lastly, Sandra and I finally
feel validated and our lives finally make sense. We always
knew that something was off growing up, but we didn't
know what it was. We looked nothing alike, our personalities
were completely different. Everyone always asked us if we were

(01:06:46):
actually full sisters, and now we finally know why. Thank you,
Laurie and Guy for all of your help and advice.
We greatly appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
I'm glad that they each got back to us separately
because there was a lot of overlap in their reports,
but there was also a difference, and the first difference
was how the mom reacted to the conversation. Sandra said
that the mom reacted better than she expected. She expected
the mom would yell at them and throw them out

(01:07:21):
of the house, and Kim said that the conversation didn't
go as well as she had hoped, so that was
interesting just in terms of their expectations. Both of them
described how when the mom was asked if she would
do anything differently knowing how much pain holding the secret
had caused the daughters, that she said she wouldn't and
I think that they interpreted that as her not seeing

(01:07:43):
their pain. But that moment when the mom said sorry,
even though it was angry, and then Kim said sorry
that we're in a lot of pain, and the mom
said yes, you know that there's so much going on
inside of the mom, and I think it's hard for
them to see because of their own pain. But I

(01:08:04):
felt so much compassion for the whole family when I
heard that moment and what it took for the mom,
given how rigid she had been on her position, to
say sorry and then to acknowledge, yes, I'm sorry that
I put you through this pain.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
I agree. I also had compassion for the mother in
hearing these voice messages, because when Kim asked her, why
didn't you tell us when we were adults, the mother
wasn't able to say, because I had kept a secret
for so long. It probably would have felt incredibly scary
to come and admit that I had lied to you
all your lives and cause you pain. Then. I think

(01:08:42):
people at that time came up with all kinds of
rationalizations for why they had to keep the secret, And
I think that what Kim and Sandra need to understand
is that the mom's positions on this are really stuck
in time. It's possible that if the dad hadn't died
and they could have processed it to together, there might
have been some change. But I think after the father

(01:09:03):
passed away then it was not just about maintaining the secret,
but maintaining his secret or his shame in some kind
of way, and that made it very difficult for the
mother to reconsider how she was handling.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Things right, because she had to really grapple with this
on her own, and she was not talking to anybody
about this because she was the sole keeper of that
secret at that point. And I think it must have
felt very difficult for her in ways she doesn't realize
or can't articulate, except there was an opening there when
she said sorry and could acknowledge their pain. I know

(01:09:37):
that's not enough for them right now, but I hope
that they take that as an opening. I think there's
going to be more of that, as the mother sees
them be very open and comfortable and relieved by being
able to live their lives with their identity being known.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
The other part I really liked was the letters they
wrote to the donuts, because we asked them to write
a letter, but they didn't just state things. They said,
here are the questions I would have asked you, here
are the things I would have wanted to know. They
were really comprehensive communicating all the feelings they had, all
the questions they had, all the thoughts they had. They

(01:10:13):
were really enumerting the losses and the misses that they
didn't get to experience, and I think that's what made
it so cathartic.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
One of the many losses that happened when you keep
that kind of secret for so long is the loss
of the ability to have connected with their donors, and
that is a huge loss, and so I think that
in these letters they were able to begin the process
of doing some of that grief work. They were so

(01:10:41):
beautiful what they described, and I hope that they'll continue
to do some of that grief work because there's more
to do there. But I think this was a really,
really positive and healing beginning to that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
And I was very hardened to hear that. When it
came to looking at what the empowering aspects of this
were for them, they were so meaningful. First among those
what it brought them closer as sisters, but it also
connected them to their cousins in a new kind of
way that they're excited about. It presented them with all

(01:11:14):
these half siblings that they now have relationships with and
have an option to form relationships with.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
And I think the biggest piece of this is what
they both said in different ways. Sandra said, I finally
know my story and Kim said, our lives finally make sense.
And that's the story that we hear over and over
when there's been a big family secret, and then when
you finally get the validation, oh, it makes sense now.
People always wondered if we were sisters or I didn't

(01:11:43):
really feel a part of the family in the way
that I thought I would. Whatever it is, just something
seemed not right. I finally know my story. Our lives
finally make sense when we think about the positives of
this experience despite all the pain, that's the positive right there.
And I'm so glad that now the mystery has been
solved and they can move forward knowing the truth and

(01:12:06):
to feel empowered by that truth.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
And the last thing I think is that by telling
the mom that they're telling the cousins, and then telling
the cousins and then having these conversations, that is no
more secret, and that is an incredible relief.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Next week, a young woman who's now with a healthy
partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had
years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.

Speaker 6 (01:12:37):
I don't want to talk about how I had an
abusive partner for three years of my life. I want
to forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,
I can't forget about it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
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help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
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help people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

(01:13:23):
Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio