December 26, 2023 • 65 mins
This week we’re in session with Kayla, who’s engaged to a wonderful man but still carries scars from a disturbing relationship she had years ago that is affecting her ability to get close with her fiance.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
Follow us both online:
LoriGottlieb.com and on Twitter @LoriGottlieb1 and Instagram @lorigottlieb_author
GuyWinch.com and on Twitter @GuyWinch and Instagram @Guy Winch
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
This week, a young woman who's now with a healthy
partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had
years ago.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
I don't want to talk about how I had an
abusive partner for three years of my life.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
I want to.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,
I can't forget about it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
First, a quick note, Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a subtitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart
Media use it in part or in full, and we
may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions
you'll hear, all names have been changed for the privacy
(01:12):
of our guests.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what do we have in
our mailbox today?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Today we have a letter from a woman who is
still processing the fallout of a relationship she had several
years ago. And here it is Deotherapists. It has been
over five years since I ended the toxic and emotionally
abusive relationship which I was in for approximately three and
a half years. The reason I'm writing to you both
is because, at twenty seven years old, I still currently
(01:43):
experience intrusive thoughts and tend to relive parts of this
relationship over and over again in my head. There seems
to be no escape from this man, even after all
of these years. The effects of this relationship affect me
in multiple ways. First, I have such anger towards myself
for participating in this relationship for as long as I did.
I tried to leave multiple times, but my ex had
(02:05):
such power over me that he always found a way
to suck me back in. My ex boyfriend is a
painful and loud reminder that this is what happens when
you don't love yourself. Through work in therapy, I learned
to develop self compassion towards myself for how I ended
up in this relationship and why I stayed for as
long as I did. But I still grieve for this
(02:26):
younger version of myself. Secondly, after this relationship, I continued
to pursue emotionally unavailable men and to no surprise, got
my heart broken more than once. It's as if I
learned nothing from my ex. And Lastly, in the years
after the relationship ended, I stayed in a toxic job
that broke my spirits and got me to gain thirty pounds.
(02:48):
I had zero boundaries. I would spread myself thin to
accommodate others. Please help me make peace with this situation.
I'm too embarrassed to speak with friends and family about
how I'm feeling. Thank you, Kayla.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
What struck me most about Kayla's letter is that she
said that she's twenty seven years old, and doing the math,
it sounds like she was about nineteen when she got
into that relationship that still haunts her. And it's interesting
because I think when we're younger. Often we don't know
a lot about boundaries. But she still hasn't forgiven herself
(03:22):
for this relationship that started when she was basically a teenager.
And I'll be curious to hear why it's been so
hard for her to let go of that and to
have the self compassion that she is trying to work on.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Sounds like she's done a lot of work on her SELFIEA,
she's saying that nothing really has changed enough, So that's
something we have to find out. She does seem to
have a lot of insight, yet not a lot of
changes happening. Let's go find out where she's stuck.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, let's do that. You're listening to Dear Therapists for
my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
I'm Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Deatherapist.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Hi Kayla, Hi Laurie, Hey Guy. Thank you so much
for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You are very very welcome.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
We read your letter and we wanted to hear a
little bit first about what's been going on with your
dating life more recently.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
So this might come as a bit of a shock
seeing I wrote the letter. However, I'm actually engaged to
a wonderful man. And the reason why I say you
might be shocked is because a letter. You know, I
feel like when I wrote it, it seems like I have
a lot of unresolved trauma from the pest. But my
fiance is a wonderful man. It's just the past that
(04:50):
I can't seem to reconcile with.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So I think you wrote to us fairly recently. Tell
us how long ago you met this man and how
long you've been engaged.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yes, so I recently got engaged about two months ago,
and we've been dating for about two years.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So when you wrote to us and you were saying
that you had this pattern of still choosing unavailable men,
you were engaged or you were with this man when
you wrote to.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Us, yes, not engaged.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You were saying you have this problem going after unavailable men,
but you'd been in a relatively long relationship with an
available man.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yes, And it was very weird at first. I wasn't
even sure I wanted to be with someone like him.
Maybe he was too available.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
What I mean is it sounded from the letter like
you had been through this pattern for the last five
years of continually dating unavailable men. When you were writing
us that letter, Why do you think you left out
the fact that you have and to be in a
relationship with an available man.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I think I still feel a lot of shame for
a lot of my past decisions, and I do feel
like a fraud sometimes in my current relationship. So I think,
while yes, I am in a happy relationship, I do
also feel like maybe not deserving of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Does the fact that you left out that detail reflect
also how you think about yourself? In other words, it's
been five years, you've done all this work in therapy,
you're actually engaged to a good, emotionally available man at
the moment, do you still think of yourself as the
woman who was in the toxic relationship despite the fact
(06:49):
that you've been in a good relationship for two years.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on about how I
view myself.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
So reality has moved on changed, but your self perception
hasn't updated with it.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Can you tell us how the feelings that you're carrying
around from the earlier relationship play out in the current relationship.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yes, So early on in the relationship, it was very
weird to me to have a man that was texting
me every day wanting to spend time with me. So
those were things that freaked me out in the beginning.
But I will say like, as we would start dating,
I noticed that sometimes when you know, he would make
(07:38):
like a small comment like oh I miss you or
I haven't seen you in a long time. I would
have panic attacks and I would start apologizing profusely, like
I'm so sorry, I feel like such a horrible girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
That's how you interpreted him saying I miss you.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
I saw it as something like you never make time
for me. That's how I viewed it because that's how
it was with my ex boyfriend Jay.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But with my current fiance it's very different.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Another example, so we lived together recently and I tend
to keep dishes in the sink sometimes, and last week
he was making a joke, oh look Kayla leaving her
dishes in the sink again, and I just jerked up
from the couch and I was like, oh my gosh,
(08:29):
I'll clean this up right away. I'm so sorry. And
he even said like, relax, I was just busting your chops.
So I think I was so scared of my ex
boyfriend Jay that that fear still controls me in my
current relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Does he make the connection in his own head between, oh,
she's reacting strongly because of her ex.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
We've had a little bit of discussions of my previous
relationship experience a lot of shame. So I maybe didn't
tell him a lot of things because I didn't want
him to look at me differently. I didn't want him
to say, like, why would Kayla choose a man like that?
What's wrong with her? Even though I don't believe deep
(09:17):
down that's what he would think.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I just.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Choose just not to say certain things that have happened.
But he definitely knows that I was in a very
toxic relationship. I didn't say to him that it was abusive.
I just said it was toxic.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I think what's interesting is that you thought he might say,
what's wrong with her? That she was in that relationship.
But I think that's what you say to yourself, And
that's so common with people who have been in abusive relationships.
They think something is wrong with them. And so I'd
be curious if you could tell us a little bit
(09:56):
more about what actually went on in that relationship.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
So the relationship spanned about three years. It was sort
of in like two phases, if you will. The first
year and a half was us trying to figure out
what we were. The second year and a half was
when we were actually in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
We had met in college.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
We would flirt and when we would see each other parties,
we would sometimes kiss when we saw each other at
the bar, but nothing ever progressed from there. And right
before he was about to graduate, I was a few
years younger than him, he told me that he cared
about me, and I realized that I had feelings for
(10:39):
him as well. I realized right after he said those
words that that's all they were.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
They were just words.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
There was no actions to back him up, because that
weekend after he told me he cared about me, and
went to the bar and he was making out with
another girl right in front of me. But we continue
to play this game of him pretending he didn't want me,
pretending I didn't care, when I really did. So we
(11:08):
hung out that entire summer. He didn't want to do
long distance when I was going back to school, and
I would say that year that I went back to
school without him, I was barely functioning. I was completely heartbroken.
My grades were falling. I couldn't even get out of bed.
(11:29):
My drinking was sort of out of control. I think
I was coping with the loss of this man by
partying too hard. And then when I came back home
for the summer, he reached out again and was like,
let's get back together. And I didn't even fight him.
(11:49):
I was just like, yeah, let's get back together, even
though he'd completely broken my heart.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So that first section you weren't actually together. Was there
a period that you were actually together?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
This summer after he had graduated, and this is right
before my junior year of college. We were hanging out
all the time, and I fell in love with him,
which now I see it wasn't love. I almost describe
him like he was a drug. When he wouldn't text me,
(12:22):
I physically felt sick. And then when he would text me,
I felt like I was on top of the world.
But every time I hung out with him, I always
felt this sense of emptiness and loneliness, and I couldn't
really pinpoint why I felt that way.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You said you felt empty after you hung out with him,
and at the same time you said you fell in
love with him. What did it mean to be in
love with him? What did you love about him?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
He was very popular at my college, but he was
known for being a player. He was one of, in
my opinion, one of the most attractive men at the school,
and he always had girls like pining over him. So
I think when got to the point where he told
(13:14):
me he cared about me, I almost felt like I
won something. I won, like this prize of this of
like the most attractive, most popular man of college.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
So I was saying it was like winning a prize,
because for you to be with this popular, handsome guy
kind of elevated your status in other people's eyes, but
probably mostly in your own. Were you aware that you
were kind of tethering your self esteem a little bit
to him?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Definitely, because there were times that summer that I had
tried to end things with him because I really felt
like I wasn't getting what I deserved or needed. But
then he would always come back and say, no, I'll
fight for you, and I believe those words, but those
(14:06):
words were always empty with no actions to back them up.
It kept going on like that for quite a while.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
What internal dialogue did you have about trying to get
yourself to not capitulate when he came and said, no,
I'll fight for you. You're the one. And was there
an internal fight about like no, I shouldn't or was
it just like, okay, good, let's let's do it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I think part of me wanted him to fight for me.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So when I got those words from him again, I
felt that high, like I took a drug. So I
I really didn't push back when he would you fight
for me, And even like from the point where I
actually broke up with him, you know, years later, he
did try to fight for me again, and that time
(14:54):
I was actually done. But at the time, like I
knew it was bad, but I almost couldn't help myself,
and I feel a lot of shame around that currently.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I'm not sure if you're aware, but the science of
heartbreak is quite clear that what happens in our brain
when we're heartbroken is very similar to what happens in
our brain when opioid addicts are withdrawing from heroin. In
other words, you said drug, and our brain absolutely regards
(15:24):
it as a drug, and like heroin in the sense
that you feel desperate to just get a fix, to
just get him back, to just be in touch, and
you feel pointless without him, the drug is the answer
to everything. Nothing else matters when you're highly, highly addicted,
and everything gets devastated when you are withdrawing from strong opioids.
(15:48):
And that's exactly what you're describing. There's a big part
of you that does feel a lot of shame. And
I'm saying that because this is one of the most
remarkable findings about this brain in science and heartbreak, that
we are driven to do things like heroin addicts are
when they're withdrawing. When heroin addicts are with drawing, that
(16:09):
makes sense. We don't know that with heartbreak, and so
it didn't make sense to you. It's the same dynamic,
and that's why it was so hard to resist.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
That's really good to know.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
I suspected it was like a drug, but I didn't
know there was actually science to back that up.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
How did you eventually decide that you were going to
go to rehub let's say, by breaking up with him?
Speaker 4 (16:32):
So I remember this day so very clearly. He refused
to come to anything that pertained to like family or
friends events, and when he was around my parents, he
was just you could just tell he was very uncomfortable.
So he picked a fight with me a few days
before Christmas, and I knew he did that because he
(16:54):
didn't want to come to Christmas.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
He knew I was going to beg him.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
So at Christmas, when everyone was asking me, like, oh, hey,
where's Jay, I was like, we broke up and at
that point we actually hadn't, but I was telling everyone
that because I knew my decision was made. That was
sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back.
And the next day I went over to his house
and I broke up with him. And for all the
(17:23):
times he watched me cry, he was the one finally crying.
And I wasn't actively happy to see him cry, but
I sort of had the mindset like, you know, crime,
your river, after what you had put me through. He
was just like watching him on his hands and knees,
begging for forgiveness, and I just said to him, I
(17:45):
don't want to be with you anymore. I felt so
empowered in that moment, and I walked away and he
still was following me to my car, trying to win
me back, and I said, get out of my face.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
So it definitely didn't.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
And well, but I was just proud that for once
I really stood off for myself.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
What was it about that straw that broke the camel's back?
Because it sounds like he had done things like that
throughout your time together, sending these very mixed messages of
come close, no go away, come close, go away, and
then there's this one incident that sounds not that different
from the other things that went on. What was it
(18:28):
about that one?
Speaker 4 (18:29):
I think part of me was scared of him. Again,
he was never physical with me, but I was scared
of him in the sense that, you know, he was
always yelling at me. So I definitely think at that
point I was walking on eggshells around him, was afraid
of him. So I think I didn't know I wanted
(18:54):
to break up with him. I just didn't know how
because I think I still was afraid of him.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
The relationship. Were you ever able to say to him, Hey,
I didn't like when you did that.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I definitely did at first when we were like officially dating. Now,
I wouldn't stand up for myself. Every time he came
to visit me at school. We always got into a fight.
He was always mad about something, and I always just
apologized to him and begged for his forgiveness. And there
was actually a specific incident that happened where one of
(19:30):
my friends was also visiting me that weekend with him.
I think it was my birthday weekend, and I just
remember fighting between the two of us and it was
just awful. And the next day my friend had like
pulled me aside and she said, you know, Kayla, I'm
(19:50):
really worried, Like he just started yelling at you out
of nowhere. She said, I was with you the whole night.
You did absolutely nothing wrong, and she wasn't like, oh,
break up with him, but she expressed a lot of
concern about that kind of behavior. So I think after
that sort of the dynamics switched where I started to
(20:12):
challenge him because I think it felt good to have
a friend tell me I wasn't crazy, because I legitimately
thought I was the problem in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
You know, you mentioned that you felt a lot of
and still feel a lot of shame about the relationship
and that you didn't really talk to friends much about it.
But after that experience, when a friend actually just sees
something and a good friend she is to come up
to you and say I'm worried without going too much
further than I'm worried. I think she handled it really well.
(20:44):
Why did that not make you feel more comfortable, even
with this one friend being more open about what was
going on, or sharing some of the dilemmas or the
painful moments. Why did you still that to yourself when
he's one friend who sees there's something going on and
is clearly supportive.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I think I didn't share because I knew what everyone
was going to say. I think I knew people were
going to tell me to leave him, and I don't
think I was ready at that point.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's interesting, cable because in fact, a friend you pointed
out very specifically in that first comment was I'm worried
for you, and you specifically said she didn't tell me
I should leave or anything. It was your own fear
that if I tell them, and I am open with them,
and I hear my own mouth say these things about him,
I'll think I really have to leave, rather than they'll
(21:39):
think I really have to leave.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, definitely, And that makes me wonder a little bit
if you have any ideas now in retrospect about what
do you think it was that made you continue to
stay in a relationship where that behavior was going on.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
They think my childhood was not that great in the
sense that in school I was the weird girl. I
was the girl that didn't have any friends. I struggled
academically up until I got to high school, and I
also was an athletic, so I think from a social aspect,
(22:18):
I didn't have that much confidence because I.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Was that weird girl.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
So I think that's why I was even more attracted
to him at first, because here I was getting attention
from the popular kid, which was something I think my
inner child desired.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
What made you weird exactly?
Speaker 4 (22:38):
I was one of the youngest kids in my grade,
and I just struggled academically. Looking back, I just believe
that I was physically and emotionally immature. And my parents
are blue collar workers, so I think, you know, while
they were very physically present, they didn't really know how
(23:01):
to help me academically. So I would always like bring
home like failed tests and they would just yell at
me to get better grades, but never actually helping me
to Teachers told my parents I should be in special
education classes, so that only further made me think low
of myself. But I just didn't really have the right
(23:22):
resources available to me. And it was funny. By the
time I got to high school, I started to get
straight a's. And I think the reason I'm such an
overtiever now is because of that feeling like I have
to prove something that in her child I still think
hurts or grieves like the life that.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
She thought she should have had. It was definitely rough.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
In your letter, you talked about grieving this time in
your life that you spent with Jay, But what you're
talking about now is grieving those years of childhood. Long
before you met Jay, you were so isolated, so alone,
weren't really seen in the way that you needed to
be seen. And I think this grief piece is really
(24:07):
important because when we're trying to process a loss, sometimes
what we do is we confuse one loss with another loss.
And because you had had that experience in childhood, and
then you had this experience of a not very good
relationship in your late teens early twenties, you're still you
(24:29):
say in your letter, grieving this period of your life
that you wish had gone differently. And I wonder if
you would feel that same way about the j relationship
if you hadn't also been grieving the losses that you
experienced in childhood.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah, I do wonder that sometimes, but.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
It definitely feels lonely because I feel like sometimes I
can't really talk about it.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
With anyone because what do you imagine would happened?
Speaker 4 (25:07):
I just think, you know, my family and friends have
been like worried about me, probably up until like a
few years ago, and I just feel like I need
to present like this stable person at this point, so
I sort of suppress a lot of what I'm feeling
or tell my therapist. But it definitely feels lonely. I
(25:30):
want to forget about it on the outside, but on
the inside I can't forget about it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Do your parents know you said that your friends would
notice some of Jay's behavior. Did your parents ever say
we're worried about this?
Speaker 4 (25:45):
They never said anything. Like recently, with like in the
last couple of years, they've said, like, you know, we
didn't know it was this bad. You hid a lot
from us, But they said we knew the relationship wasn't good,
they didn't realize it was abusive.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
And how did they find out that it was abusive
if you weren't talking about it.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
My sister had told them. There was one night I
had a complete mental breakdown about.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
This after the relationship ended.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yeah, after I had pursued one of these emotionally unavailable guys.
Once that happened, I sort of was like crying over
that guy as well as Jay. And like my parents
like sometimes would joke about my ex Jay, and I
think when they were joking one time, my sister said, like,
you don't You can't joke about that relationship. You don't
(26:41):
realize how bad it was. And I think my parents
were floored. She just was trying to get like my
parents to realize that they failed me in a sense.
At least that's my sister told my parents. That's her opinion.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
What does your sister think your parents should have done
or what do you think they should have done given
that they didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Like I said, my parents blue collar workers. They we
didn't have the most money growing up, but they really
worked very hard to give us a good life. And
as much as I love them, I think growing up
their focus was always on what looks good on paper.
The message me and my sister received when we're going
to college, like you need to pick a major that
(27:28):
is going to you're going to make six figures right
right out of school. You cannot major in education. You're
not going to get a job as a teacher. The
keeping me in sports growing up when I wasn't good
at them, and that sort of like ruined my self
confidence because when you're, you know, an eleven year old girl,
you compare yourself to your peers, and you know, me
(27:51):
and my sister used to cry and beg our parents,
you know, please let us quit the sport, Please let
us quit this club, and it was always like, no,
you have to do everything you can do to make
your resume look good. So I think my sister, you know,
felt like my parents failed me in the sense that
(28:12):
they never cared about my happiness.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That you didn't have the tools to really listen to
what you wanted or desired because you didn't have practice
with that.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, like everything I would like come to my parents
with was always dismissed. You know, something as silly as
wanting to quit softball. I would have so much anxiety
going to practice. I used to cry in the bathroom
because I didn't want to play it, and I would
cry to my parents and it was just sort of
(28:45):
like too bad. So I think I just learned to
do things that I didn't want to do in life,
learned to stay in jobs too long, stayed in relationships.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Longer than they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You said that your parents are really concerned about you
getting a job where you made a lot of money
right out of college and that things looked a certain way.
Did you end up choosing a career based on what
they wanted?
Speaker 3 (29:18):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
I was always good at math in high school because
I had sort of dealt with a lot of depression
and anxiety. I actually wanted to major in psychology. I
wanted to become like a therapist because I said I
wanted to help people like me.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
And.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I was told like, no, you're going to need to
go to grad school for that major. It was basically like,
you're good at math, so just do something in business.
So I chose finance, and it definitely didn't belong in
that major.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
A lot of the reasons why I even stayed in
my relationship with Jay's because I was very unhappy in college,
forcing something that wasn't meant for me, and he was
my only source of happiness really at the time. I mean,
he wasn't happiness for me. But that was my only.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Crutch, let's call it an escape.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
Yeah, and even the message like you have to get
a job at a big bank, and that job was
also one of the worst experiences of my life. I
don't actively blame my parents anymore. I see them for
who they are with their own issues. I just wished
(30:38):
they would have listened to me. I wish I would
have had the insight to, like, you know, go to
college and choose my own major, or at least I
wish I could have dual majored in psychology. I wish
I would have done something for myself. But the message
was so ingrained in me that life is hard and
(31:00):
you just have to accept it for what it is.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Have you ever told them that you feel this way?
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Yes, they harbor a lot of guilt.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
My parents were actually paying recently for my therapy and
I didn't ask them to. I think they just feel
so bad for what had happened, and they've seen me
have you know, a ton of mental breakdowns over my job.
So I think knowing that they're sorry helped me forgive
(31:36):
them a little bit, and not.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Just being sorry, but knowing that they can actually see you.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, Taylor, you said, your sister the one that told
your parents about what was going on with Jay, and
your sister is the one that got through to them
about this stuff as well. Do you have a relationship
now where you don't need your sister and if something
is going on, if there's something you wanted to bring up,
you feel comfortable doing it in a way that they
(32:03):
can hear and respond to.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Luckily, yes, it took up me a long time to
get there, but I have really strong boundaries with my
parents and they respect them. For example, my mother she
knows when she comments on my clothes. I know it's
very trivial, but if she comments on my parents, she
knows I'm going to flip out on her. Probably isn't
(32:28):
the mature thing to do, but I've gone into a
place where my boundaries are my boundaries, and I'm really
proud of the boundaries I have with my parents, and
I think because they respect my boundaries, I can have
a good relationship with them.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I'm wondering if the timing of having boundaries with your
parents and having them really see you coincides with not
going after unavailable men anymore and meeting your fiance.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
So I think some of the men, well, two of
them were divorced, and they were only divorced for a month,
So I think that should have been my first red
flag that maybe they weren't ready to be in a relationship.
I think after you dating some men like this, I
had rules for myself. One of them was something as
(33:22):
silly as they couldn't add me on social media unless
they were serious about being serious with me. I try
to look at everything and say like, Okay, they may
have messed up, but where did I fail to see
the red flags?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
What did I just sweep under the rug that shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Been So it sounds like you were learning from these
relationships with people who weren't available or weren't wanting what
you were wanting at the same time, But in your
letter you present it as if you're just not learning anything.
You said something like I've learned nothing from this, and
yet you were starting to set boundaries. You were coming
(33:59):
up with what are my limits? You were looking at
yourself and saying, what is my role in this? And
then you started to have a different relationship with your parents,
and you also met your fiance. So help us understand
your perception from your letter that nothing has changed to
I met this guy, and I'm in this really different
(34:22):
relationship than I've ever been in.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I still see myself as this helpless young child.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
As proud as I am of the strides I've made,
as happy as I am with my fiance, I still
am scared that I can't trust myself. I'm even scared
to be one thousand percent happy with my fiance because
I'm scared that I'm just going to keep making mistakes.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Can you just clarify what mistakes you could make with
your field and say right now?
Speaker 4 (34:58):
For example, I'm scared to want a baby, And the
reason why I'm scared to want a baby is because
I convinced myself that I'm infertile, even though I go
to the doctors yearly. There's nothing wrong with me. But
I'm just convinced that I can't have what other people have.
And I'm even like scared to plan a wedding because
(35:22):
I'm just I'm just like, it's going to rain, something's
gonna happen. I'm just like, oh, like, let me just
elope so that I don't have expectations. I sort of
self sabotage to manage so cold foreseeable failure.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So desire is dangerous, yes, because the other shoe could
easily drop.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Yeah, so that's right. Sometimes I feel like a fraud.
My fiance adores me, and I'm like, what do you adore?
He's never given me a reason not to trust him,
or every day he shows me that he loves me
in some capacity.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
What do you love about him?
Speaker 4 (36:04):
I love that he's always there for me. Besides the
fact that he's very physically attractive, at least to me,
his comfort to means everything. His friendship to me is everything.
He's a very sensitive guy, and that's very different than
anyone have ever dated. His emotions are on his sleeve
(36:28):
and I never have to guess what he's thinking. He
surprises me with flowers all the time, or he'll cook
for me and he'll say, like, you know, I made
this meal with love. Just a lot of little things
that I really have grown to appreciate about him.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So you were talking about how cared for you feel
by your fiance, and at the same time you're afraid
to really talk to him about some of your experiences
that still live inside of it. What do you think
makes for that disconnect between I really trust this person
and I really feel cared for, and I also don't
(37:11):
want to open up to him. Is that the other
shoes going to drop? And if so, how might it drop.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
I don't think he would leave me or anything if
I did open up. I really think it's rooted back
in the shame I still feel from the experience. I
want to present that things are peachy, when in reality
there's turmoil inside. I think it's really just the vulnerability
(37:42):
of opening up to such rough subjects, to dark times
in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You have shame about the relationship with Jay, but do
you also have shame specifically about your elementary school experiences?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I mean, you know, what are people going to say
if I'm like, oh, you know, I was a loser
in elementary school? And I know that's dramatic. I know
it's not that dark, but you know, it scares me.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
I notice how much you downplay your experiences. Earlier in
our conversation, you said about a boundary that you were setting.
This might sound silly, when it was not a silly
boundary at all. It was a very valid boundary to set.
And now you're saying you're being dramatic by talking about
what sounds like a very lonely and painful time in
(38:31):
your childhood. You said after the Jay relationship that they
have to be emotionally available, they have to be stable,
and you have this partner who seems to be that,
but you don't seem to want to be emotionally available
in your upcoming marriage. What do you think will happen
(38:54):
if you continue to hide like this?
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I mean, worst case a divorce.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
Obviously that's not something I would ever want, but I
understand what you're saying, Laurie. If we did have kids,
if I'm going to do what my parents did to
my kids and invalidate their emotions that you know, that
terrifies me too, even have kids, to know, like, what
if I screw them up the way my parents screwed
me up? You know, what if I invalidate their emotions
(39:22):
or their needs, or you know, if I have kids,
what if I try to give them the life that
I always wanted but never had and force them to.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Do things they don't want to do.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
First of all, it sounds like you're so aware of
these things in a way that parents who do do
those things to their kids maybe aren't so aware that
they're doing it. But also you went away from my question,
and I bring that up because again we're talking about
the emotional intimacy with your fiance, and when I go there,
(39:57):
you go to a different worry. So if we can
sit for a second and think about that and see
what happens in your body as that question goes through you,
you imagine being emotionally available to him. What do you
(40:17):
imagine it will feel like to be with this person
who really cares about you? But then you stay closed
off in certain ways, so you're kind of unknowable. He
doesn't really get to know you, and in certain ways
you won't really get to know him.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Feels like really unfair to him and to myself.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
How does it feel unfair to you?
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Because I deserve to make peace and I deserve to
express myself, and I just keep denying myself that it's
only going to just further confirm to my self disbelief
that I'm not worthy.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
It's a cruel form of self sabotage.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
It's self sabotage in the name of self protection, except
that it doesn't actually protect you. It leaves you more
vulnerable to things going wrong.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, what I'm hearing from you is that there is
a way in which you actually really don't feel worthy
because you still feel in part and too much like
the weirdo kid, the loser as you represent it, and
(41:37):
you still have so much shame around Jay, and I
think what's preventing you from opening up and being emotionally
available to your fiance and to other people in your
life perhaps is that there is very very little self
compassion in all those formulations. You are viewing yourself through
(42:00):
the eyes of a young girl that was really suffering
and really having a hard time. Till you can start
thinking of your history and of yourself with much much
more self compassion, it's going to be very hard for
you to open up.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, you said that your finance job made you miserable.
Have you made a change since that job?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (42:27):
I quit was sort of another moment similar to when
I broke up with Jay, where I felt very empowered.
Within like two months, I literally lost like twenty five pounds,
like just the stress just evaporated from my body. That's
how much stress I was holding in to my body
from that job, and it just left. I didn't even
(42:49):
like change my diet, and everyone was like, you just
look like a different person, And I think once I
left that job that was suffocating to me is when
I really decided did that things needed to change. And
I almost can thank my fiance a little bit for that,
because he has a job that he loves and he
(43:12):
almost inspired me to seek different for myself.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
So are you pursuing something that excites you.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
I took a different job at a much smaller firm
and I've been there for like a year and a half.
Speaker 5 (43:27):
Now.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
I am still like in the sort of the finance world,
but I'm working nine to five, which is just amazing.
My priority has been trying to fix myself, if you.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Will, or can we say, maybe trying to heal myself.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Yeah, my priority has been to heal myself. I'm, you know,
in therapy. I'm reading books again, which is something I
haven't done in years. I have, you know, dabbled in
yoga a little bit.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Though.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I think my career is sort of on a back
burner right now because I'm trying to fix these other
areas of my life first.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
And where in all of this is your interest in
psychology and your desire to become a therapist.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
I mean, I still think I would love to be one.
I know I could do it if I really wanted to, So,
sort of like I do another areas of my life,
I kind of keep my life small, or I stay
in this limbo to protect myself.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Does your fiance know about that desire?
Speaker 4 (44:34):
He does, and he said, like, if you want to
do it, you know, I'll support you. But I'm scared
to shake things up in my life because right now
I feel a lot better. But I'm scared to be
too happy and I'm scared to be too depressed. So
(44:56):
I keep myself in a limbo area.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Saying that you're afraid to feel too happy and you're
afraid to go spiraling down into depression. So you want
to stay in this kind of safe middle. But the
problem with that is that you don't really feel Yeah,
so I think there is something in between depression and
just not feeling great that day. But for you, it's
(45:22):
like it's either going to be really great or really awful,
kind of like it was with Jay. You know, things
are great he called me he wants me, or things
are terrible. He's ignoring me, or he's treating me poorly.
And so your idea to solve that problem is to
just kind of stay in this safe middle. And what
(45:42):
I want to suggest is that if you mute one feeling,
you mute the others. And so you're so afraid of
feeling joy that you're muting some of the pain, and
you're so afraid of going into the pain that you're
muting the joy, and so you're not really kind of
alone live in your emotional world. And you again have
(46:04):
this all or nothing idea that well, i'd have to
kind of drop everything into a psychology program when I
don't know if I'm committed as opposed to maybe I'll
just take a class in psychology, just one and see
if I like it.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you, Kayla, in the therapy
that you've had, has the topic of anxiety.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Come up now? I was always very focused on the
depression part of myself, or I thought that was the
most urgent thing that needed to be addressed. We never
really got to the anxiety part.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I'm asking because I hear an undercurrent of anxiety in
almost everything that you're talking about. By definition, anxiety is
a fear of an unspecified, non immediate, vague kind of
dread of something bad will happen. It's not an articulated
what that bad might be. It's not something that's looming
(46:58):
this second, it might happen later or tomorrow or next week.
And that feeling of dread is the thing that people
interpret sometimes as fear. But one of the biggest responses
people have to anxiety is avoidance. They avoid the things
that make them anxious. And you have a pattern of
(47:20):
avoidance in your life, the avoiding getting too close to
people by sharing truly what's going on, Avoiding going after
the things you really really want, experiencing the joy which
you know is there to be had in certain areas,
because then what if I get blindsided and something goes
wrong and there's no indication anything going wrong in your
(47:43):
relationship with your fiance, Does that resonate with you in
any way, that there's this undercurrent of anxiety that's been
going on in your life as well?
Speaker 4 (47:53):
Spot On, It's even funny, I'm like trying to convince
my fiance that I don't want to have a bridal
party because I don't even want to like offend people
by not like choosing them as bridesmaids.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
My go to is just to avoid even having a
bridal party.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
So it's interesting you bring that up because It manifests.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
So many different ways in my life.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
And it's important to label it anxiety because if you
don't label it anxiety, then you start coming up with
rationales for it and justifying them. So why I'm saying that,
I want you to note this idea of calling things
anxiety when it fits that pattern, because then you at
least know, no, that's not necessarily a real danger, that's anxiety.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
I think I've been focused on depression as the driver
that I neglected to see, you know, anxiety in the
passenger seat.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
You did that with the kids too, that I'm afraid
to have kids because I might do things to them
that would repeat what my parents did with me. I'm
afraid to entertain the idea of psychology because I don't
know if I'm committed to it yet. There's a reason
for everything that you come up with. But underneath that,
(49:09):
what happens is, and you've used this word several times today,
self sabotage in the name of self protection when it
doesn't actually protect you, does not keep you safe. It
keeps you on high alert. As guy was saying, that's
the anxiety. You're always on high alert, and you come
(49:29):
by that Honestly, you've had experiences that might have taught
you that you need to be accept Now you're in
a different situation, you don't need to be in high
alert around those things anymore.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
And the last thing about anxiety is it's exhausting because
you have to do these mental gymnastics and these accountings
and these rationales and explaining and avoiding. It just keeps
you very busy.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
And the other function of it is that while you're
spinning in your head, you don't really have room to
connect with your fiance, maybe with your friends, maybe with
yourself in the ways that I think would create a
much richer experience for you.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
So, Kayla, we have some advice for you. Here's the
first part. As I said, I was concerned that you
are very self critical and that you need to improve
your self compassion skills and practice. What would like you
to do is would like you to make a list
of the ten greatest self critical hits that play out
(50:42):
in your head, things like I was a weirdo, or
it's shameful that I stayed in a relationship that was abusive,
what's wrong with me? Whatever the narratives are, write out
the full sentences of the really harsh statements that you
make for yourself. So make that list of ten, and
(51:03):
then for each one, present the self compassionate option. The
self compassionate option for I was a weirdo in school
was I was depressed and I felt very alone, and
I didn't have anyone to talk to, and I didn't
connect with people, and I was really unhappy. Again, self
compassion is about how you would talk to a friend
(51:24):
or what's somebody who really cared about you, how they
would frame that rather than the self critical way. So
that's what would like you to do. Ten of the
most self critical statements and then ten self compassionate takes
on those exact same statements.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
And we think that will help with the next part
of the assignment, which is when you can have a
little more self compassion for yourself, you might be able
to start to connect with other people in a deeper way.
And we want you to start with your fiance. We
would like you to talk to him about some of
the things that you haven't shared with him yet. For example,
(52:03):
when that thing happened where he said he was joking
about you left the dishes in the sink, and you
immediately got up and said, Oh, I'll take care of
that right away. You said, he sort of understands where
that comes from, Yeah, but not completely. We would like
you to tell him that you have been holding back
a little bit because you have a lot of shame
(52:24):
around some parts of your life that happened before you
met him, and that as you start this marriage together,
you really want to practice being more connected and open
and you value so much how much he cares for
you and the trust that you have with him, and
(52:47):
so you want to share with him something that feels
very delicate to you, and then tell him a little
bit about your childhood and what that was like what
you shared with us today, and maybe tell him a
little little bit about how much shame you have around
staying with this person in your early twenties that still
(53:10):
haunts you today and that you're really working on that,
but you just want him to know that it's there
because you want to get closer with him, share with
us what it felt like to share this with him,
and then also how he responded to you. And then
the third thing we'd like you to do is that
we noticed again that you are a master of coming
(53:31):
up with reasons that you can't do or have the
things that you want. And you talked about how much
you would have liked to have pursued psychology or at
least explored it if finance was not the mandate in
your household, and so we want you to really have
the space to explore that. And that doesn't mean you
(53:52):
have to commit to a graduate program when you have
no idea if you really want to do this yet.
But what we'd like you to do is to take
a class. We want you to sign up for a
psychology class. There's probably one at your local community college.
There might be one online. It might be more fun
if you go in person. But as you're doing your
(54:12):
yoga and your therapy and all of the other things
you're doing to heal, we'd like you to invest a
little bit of time in your joy. And what you
can learn from this experience is you might say, oh,
you know what, I don't actually like that after all,
but it inspires me to think about what I might
enjoy more than finance. Maybe it's not psychology. Or you
(54:34):
might say I really love this. I might want to
take a second class, or I might want to get
some brochures about graduate school or whatever it is, but
either way, it will give you some useful information that
is coming from your desires, your wishes, and not some
external mandate that you've been living with for a very
(54:54):
long time. So you want to give some space to
your desires.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
One lost. We were thinking also about the anxiety that
you have, especially around experiencing joy. So we would like
this week you to catch, if possible, five times that
you are thinking about things that could bring you joy
in a way that's full of dread and avoidance. For example,
(55:20):
how can I have a bridal shower. I'll alienate one
of my friends, so I can't do that. You have
that thought, all you need to do is go, okay,
that's an anxious thought. That's not a realistic concern. That's anxiety.
Or I can't have kids because I might end up
perting them in some way as a parent, So let's
just avoid having kids all together. Any one of those
(55:41):
things that comes up that are things that could bring
you joy or pleasure and the dread comes up about
them just to label them anxiety. This is my anxiety
around joy. We want you to do in that way
so that when you have anxiety around joy and you
take it less seriously as a threat and were like,
(56:02):
here's me doing this anxiety around joy thing, and so
that's why we want you to catch it as much
as possible this week.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
Okay, it sounds really good.
Speaker 4 (56:10):
I didn't really realize to an extent that it was
almost controlling my life. So even just recognizing that already
just makes me feel a lot better and a little hopeful.
So I'm definitely excited to do these tasks that you
both mentioned.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Well, we're very excited for you to try these things
this week, and we look forward to hearing how it goes.
Speaker 4 (56:32):
Yeah, thank you or thank you guys so much for
having me on the show. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
So I was really surprised when we started a session
today and the first thing Kayla told us was that
she not only was engaged, but had been dating this
very seemingly emotionally available man for two years. And it
seems so strange before we got to know her, but
once we started unpacking some of this, it actually made
(57:06):
sense that it is so terrifying for her to even
voice something good in her life that she just pushes
it down. She couldn't tell us this good thing had
happened in her life. She couldn't write it down until
we actually were in session, and she had to tell
us so that we could do the session with her right.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
It was really difficult for her to add that in
her letter and say, oh, but things are good in
this area because she has so much anxiety and dread
about that going south at some point.
Speaker 1 (57:35):
The going south part is the part that really trips
her up. That I can't hold to tightly onto the
things that bring me joy because something will go wrong.
I can't think about having kids because I might repeat
the patterns of my parents. I can't think about my
bridal shower, even though that might be really fun, because
I might offend someone. I can't think about this career
(57:58):
that I might want to have because I'm supposed to
do finance. And it's interesting that when you brought up
anxiety that seemed to really resonate with her, that she
hadn't thought about it that way. And that's so common
I think for anybody listening, this idea that when we're
spinning around something or we're perseverating on something, and we
focus on something almost obsessively, that there's something else that
(58:20):
we are afraid of. And when we get to that fear,
it becomes much less scary. If we can just name
the fear, the anxiety goes down.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
I love by the way her phrasing of I thought
depression was driving this. I didn't realize anxiety was in
the passenger seat. As you know, Laurie, those two go
on road trips together all the time.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
They're fast friends. Yes, so we gave her a bunch
of things to think about this week and to do
this week, and I am really looking forward to hearing
how that all goes for her, as am I.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
You listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a
short break, So Laurie, we heard back from Kayla. Let's
hear how she did this week.
Speaker 5 (59:15):
Hey Laurie, Hey guy, it's Kayla. I'm here to talk
about the task that you have both given me too
complete over the past week. Vers One guy maybe wanted
me to make a list of ten self critical hits
with the self compassion component, and I wanted to share
one that I had written out. So the self critical
(59:36):
hit is I should have never gotten into a relationship
with Jay, And the self compassion component that I wrote
out was I have always felt like the outcasts in society.
Being with a popular guy like Jay gave me more
confidence and maybe believe I was worthy of love even
if it didn't work out. I think writing that out,
(59:58):
I try to imagine myself what my friend would say
to me, but I really try to believe that it
was something I would say to myself. So I definitely
think this exercise really really challenged me and enjoyed, you know,
sort of writing out the self compassion components.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
You know.
Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
The second thing you would have requested was to connect
with my fancy more. And I talked to him about everything,
including what it was like an elementary school for me,
and sort of more about what happened in the relationship
with Jay, and to my surprise, but probably not to
(01:00:36):
Laurie or guy surprised, his response is sort of like,
you know, I wish you had told me sooner. We
were able to have a conversation about it, and I
feel pretty good after sharing with him, so I think
it's something I'm going to continue going forward. The third thing, Laurie,
I know you have requested that I sign up for
(01:00:57):
a psychology class. Unfortunately I have not done that yet.
I just not for me. I can mentally get myself
to do right now, but I feel hopeful that it
is something I will do one day. So I just
really want to thank you both for taking the time
(01:01:19):
to speak with me. Really put a lot of things
into perspective. I made me think.
Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
About a lot of different things. So I hope you
both take care.
Speaker 6 (01:01:31):
So we give people a lot to do every week
because we only have one session with them, And with
the first two tests that we gave Kayla, it sounds
like she did beautifully. She got out of her shame
and went into a place of compassion with some of
the narratives that she had been carrying around, and she
was able to talk to her fiance and start to
(01:01:55):
connect with him in a different way without hiding some
of these parts of her past that felt so shameful
to her. And I think that's all very positive.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
But when it came to the other two tasks around
signing up for the psychology class and identifying her anxiety
around joy, she seems to have struggled with those two.
Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
And I want our listeners to understand that when we
give these multi component tasks, it's for a reason, because
things are always connected, and so the idea of the
psychology class was not well. Try psychology was a symbolic
way to step out of her parents' expectations and do
(01:02:37):
the thing that she had trouble advocating for herself when
she was younger, and the task around the anxiety around
joy was an important task also to create a separation
between the previous history that she had of really struggling
with anxiety but thinking that actually her desire and her
(01:03:00):
wishes and her wants were problematic like having children, as
opposed to realizing that that was about anxiety and they're
all connected. So that first part of leaning into the
engagement more and being more self compassionate is something she
did well. But I hope, Kaylor, if you're listening to this,
I would urge you to pick up those other two
(01:03:23):
tasks and do them if you can, because they, together
with the first two, which we hope you'll keep working on,
as you said, together will help you really change the
old patterns that tend to be dominant in our lives
when we've had them for many years, and we need
a multi prompt approach to really break out of them.
(01:03:44):
And I hope if you can do all of those things,
it would really help you move forward. In a really
substantial way. Next week, we're checking in with Doug, who
struggled with a fear of intimacy after an emotional scarring relationship,
to hear how he's doing one year later.
Speaker 7 (01:04:04):
It's really hard for me to open up to him
because every time in the past I've opened up about
my feelings, it's either bend, met with rejection or met
with OCD. So it's really hard for me to trust
that I can have a safe person to open up too.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please
help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington,
and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gujierrez
(01:04:56):
and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast fairy
god mother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
at our next session. Theotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Fisher Food
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
This week, a young woman who's now with a healthy
partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had
years ago.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
I don't want to talk about how I had an
abusive partner for three years of my life.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
I want to.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,
I can't forget about it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
First, a quick note, Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a subtitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart
Media use it in part or in full, and we
may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions
you'll hear, all names have been changed for the privacy
(01:12):
of our guests.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what do we have in
our mailbox today?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Today we have a letter from a woman who is
still processing the fallout of a relationship she had several
years ago. And here it is Deotherapists. It has been
over five years since I ended the toxic and emotionally
abusive relationship which I was in for approximately three and
a half years. The reason I'm writing to you both
is because, at twenty seven years old, I still currently
(01:43):
experience intrusive thoughts and tend to relive parts of this
relationship over and over again in my head. There seems
to be no escape from this man, even after all
of these years. The effects of this relationship affect me
in multiple ways. First, I have such anger towards myself
for participating in this relationship for as long as I did.
I tried to leave multiple times, but my ex had
(02:05):
such power over me that he always found a way
to suck me back in. My ex boyfriend is a
painful and loud reminder that this is what happens when
you don't love yourself. Through work in therapy, I learned
to develop self compassion towards myself for how I ended
up in this relationship and why I stayed for as
long as I did. But I still grieve for this
(02:26):
younger version of myself. Secondly, after this relationship, I continued
to pursue emotionally unavailable men and to no surprise, got
my heart broken more than once. It's as if I
learned nothing from my ex. And Lastly, in the years
after the relationship ended, I stayed in a toxic job
that broke my spirits and got me to gain thirty pounds.
(02:48):
I had zero boundaries. I would spread myself thin to
accommodate others. Please help me make peace with this situation.
I'm too embarrassed to speak with friends and family about
how I'm feeling. Thank you, Kayla.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
What struck me most about Kayla's letter is that she
said that she's twenty seven years old, and doing the math,
it sounds like she was about nineteen when she got
into that relationship that still haunts her. And it's interesting
because I think when we're younger. Often we don't know
a lot about boundaries. But she still hasn't forgiven herself
(03:22):
for this relationship that started when she was basically a teenager.
And I'll be curious to hear why it's been so
hard for her to let go of that and to
have the self compassion that she is trying to work on.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Sounds like she's done a lot of work on her SELFIEA,
she's saying that nothing really has changed enough, So that's
something we have to find out. She does seem to
have a lot of insight, yet not a lot of
changes happening. Let's go find out where she's stuck.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, let's do that. You're listening to Dear Therapists for
my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
I'm Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Deatherapist.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Hi Kayla, Hi Laurie, Hey Guy. Thank you so much
for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You are very very welcome.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
We read your letter and we wanted to hear a
little bit first about what's been going on with your
dating life more recently.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
So this might come as a bit of a shock
seeing I wrote the letter. However, I'm actually engaged to
a wonderful man. And the reason why I say you
might be shocked is because a letter. You know, I
feel like when I wrote it, it seems like I have
a lot of unresolved trauma from the pest. But my
fiance is a wonderful man. It's just the past that
(04:50):
I can't seem to reconcile with.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So I think you wrote to us fairly recently. Tell
us how long ago you met this man and how
long you've been engaged.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Yes, so I recently got engaged about two months ago,
and we've been dating for about two years.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So when you wrote to us and you were saying
that you had this pattern of still choosing unavailable men,
you were engaged or you were with this man when
you wrote to.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Us, yes, not engaged.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You were saying you have this problem going after unavailable men,
but you'd been in a relatively long relationship with an
available man.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yes, And it was very weird at first. I wasn't
even sure I wanted to be with someone like him.
Maybe he was too available.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
What I mean is it sounded from the letter like
you had been through this pattern for the last five
years of continually dating unavailable men. When you were writing
us that letter, Why do you think you left out
the fact that you have and to be in a
relationship with an available man.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I think I still feel a lot of shame for
a lot of my past decisions, and I do feel
like a fraud sometimes in my current relationship. So I think,
while yes, I am in a happy relationship, I do
also feel like maybe not deserving of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Does the fact that you left out that detail reflect
also how you think about yourself? In other words, it's
been five years, you've done all this work in therapy,
you're actually engaged to a good, emotionally available man at
the moment, do you still think of yourself as the
woman who was in the toxic relationship despite the fact
(06:49):
that you've been in a good relationship for two years.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on about how I
view myself.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
So reality has moved on changed, but your self perception
hasn't updated with it.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Can you tell us how the feelings that you're carrying
around from the earlier relationship play out in the current relationship.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yes, So early on in the relationship, it was very
weird to me to have a man that was texting
me every day wanting to spend time with me. So
those were things that freaked me out in the beginning.
But I will say like, as we would start dating,
I noticed that sometimes when you know, he would make
(07:38):
like a small comment like oh I miss you or
I haven't seen you in a long time. I would
have panic attacks and I would start apologizing profusely, like
I'm so sorry, I feel like such a horrible girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
That's how you interpreted him saying I miss you.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
I saw it as something like you never make time
for me. That's how I viewed it because that's how
it was with my ex boyfriend Jay.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But with my current fiance it's very different.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Another example, so we lived together recently and I tend
to keep dishes in the sink sometimes, and last week
he was making a joke, oh look Kayla leaving her
dishes in the sink again, and I just jerked up
from the couch and I was like, oh my gosh,
(08:29):
I'll clean this up right away. I'm so sorry. And
he even said like, relax, I was just busting your chops.
So I think I was so scared of my ex
boyfriend Jay that that fear still controls me in my
current relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Does he make the connection in his own head between, oh,
she's reacting strongly because of her ex.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
We've had a little bit of discussions of my previous
relationship experience a lot of shame. So I maybe didn't
tell him a lot of things because I didn't want
him to look at me differently. I didn't want him
to say, like, why would Kayla choose a man like that?
What's wrong with her? Even though I don't believe deep
(09:17):
down that's what he would think.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I just.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Choose just not to say certain things that have happened.
But he definitely knows that I was in a very
toxic relationship. I didn't say to him that it was abusive.
I just said it was toxic.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I think what's interesting is that you thought he might say,
what's wrong with her? That she was in that relationship.
But I think that's what you say to yourself, And
that's so common with people who have been in abusive relationships.
They think something is wrong with them. And so I'd
be curious if you could tell us a little bit
(09:56):
more about what actually went on in that relationship.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
So the relationship spanned about three years. It was sort
of in like two phases, if you will. The first
year and a half was us trying to figure out
what we were. The second year and a half was
when we were actually in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
We had met in college.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
We would flirt and when we would see each other parties,
we would sometimes kiss when we saw each other at
the bar, but nothing ever progressed from there. And right
before he was about to graduate, I was a few
years younger than him, he told me that he cared
about me, and I realized that I had feelings for
(10:39):
him as well. I realized right after he said those
words that that's all they were.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
They were just words.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
There was no actions to back him up, because that
weekend after he told me he cared about me, and
went to the bar and he was making out with
another girl right in front of me. But we continue
to play this game of him pretending he didn't want me,
pretending I didn't care, when I really did. So we
(11:08):
hung out that entire summer. He didn't want to do
long distance when I was going back to school, and
I would say that year that I went back to
school without him, I was barely functioning. I was completely heartbroken.
My grades were falling. I couldn't even get out of bed.
(11:29):
My drinking was sort of out of control. I think
I was coping with the loss of this man by
partying too hard. And then when I came back home
for the summer, he reached out again and was like,
let's get back together. And I didn't even fight him.
(11:49):
I was just like, yeah, let's get back together, even
though he'd completely broken my heart.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So that first section you weren't actually together. Was there
a period that you were actually together?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
This summer after he had graduated, and this is right
before my junior year of college. We were hanging out
all the time, and I fell in love with him,
which now I see it wasn't love. I almost describe
him like he was a drug. When he wouldn't text me,
(12:22):
I physically felt sick. And then when he would text me,
I felt like I was on top of the world.
But every time I hung out with him, I always
felt this sense of emptiness and loneliness, and I couldn't
really pinpoint why I felt that way.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You said you felt empty after you hung out with him,
and at the same time you said you fell in
love with him. What did it mean to be in
love with him? What did you love about him?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
He was very popular at my college, but he was
known for being a player. He was one of, in
my opinion, one of the most attractive men at the school,
and he always had girls like pining over him. So
I think when got to the point where he told
(13:14):
me he cared about me, I almost felt like I
won something. I won, like this prize of this of
like the most attractive, most popular man of college.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
So I was saying it was like winning a prize,
because for you to be with this popular, handsome guy
kind of elevated your status in other people's eyes, but
probably mostly in your own. Were you aware that you
were kind of tethering your self esteem a little bit
to him?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Definitely, because there were times that summer that I had
tried to end things with him because I really felt
like I wasn't getting what I deserved or needed. But
then he would always come back and say, no, I'll
fight for you, and I believe those words, but those
(14:06):
words were always empty with no actions to back them up.
It kept going on like that for quite a while.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
What internal dialogue did you have about trying to get
yourself to not capitulate when he came and said, no,
I'll fight for you. You're the one. And was there
an internal fight about like no, I shouldn't or was
it just like, okay, good, let's let's do it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I think part of me wanted him to fight for me.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
So when I got those words from him again, I
felt that high, like I took a drug. So I
I really didn't push back when he would you fight
for me, And even like from the point where I
actually broke up with him, you know, years later, he
did try to fight for me again, and that time
(14:54):
I was actually done. But at the time, like I
knew it was bad, but I almost couldn't help myself,
and I feel a lot of shame around that currently.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I'm not sure if you're aware, but the science of
heartbreak is quite clear that what happens in our brain
when we're heartbroken is very similar to what happens in
our brain when opioid addicts are withdrawing from heroin. In
other words, you said drug, and our brain absolutely regards
(15:24):
it as a drug, and like heroin in the sense
that you feel desperate to just get a fix, to
just get him back, to just be in touch, and
you feel pointless without him, the drug is the answer
to everything. Nothing else matters when you're highly, highly addicted,
and everything gets devastated when you are withdrawing from strong opioids.
(15:48):
And that's exactly what you're describing. There's a big part
of you that does feel a lot of shame. And
I'm saying that because this is one of the most
remarkable findings about this brain in science and heartbreak, that
we are driven to do things like heroin addicts are
when they're withdrawing. When heroin addicts are with drawing, that
(16:09):
makes sense. We don't know that with heartbreak, and so
it didn't make sense to you. It's the same dynamic,
and that's why it was so hard to resist.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
That's really good to know.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
I suspected it was like a drug, but I didn't
know there was actually science to back that up.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
How did you eventually decide that you were going to
go to rehub let's say, by breaking up with him?
Speaker 4 (16:32):
So I remember this day so very clearly. He refused
to come to anything that pertained to like family or
friends events, and when he was around my parents, he
was just you could just tell he was very uncomfortable.
So he picked a fight with me a few days
before Christmas, and I knew he did that because he
(16:54):
didn't want to come to Christmas.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
He knew I was going to beg him.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
So at Christmas, when everyone was asking me, like, oh, hey,
where's Jay, I was like, we broke up and at
that point we actually hadn't, but I was telling everyone
that because I knew my decision was made. That was
sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back.
And the next day I went over to his house
and I broke up with him. And for all the
(17:23):
times he watched me cry, he was the one finally crying.
And I wasn't actively happy to see him cry, but
I sort of had the mindset like, you know, crime,
your river, after what you had put me through. He
was just like watching him on his hands and knees,
begging for forgiveness, and I just said to him, I
(17:45):
don't want to be with you anymore. I felt so
empowered in that moment, and I walked away and he
still was following me to my car, trying to win
me back, and I said, get out of my face.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
So it definitely didn't.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
And well, but I was just proud that for once
I really stood off for myself.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
What was it about that straw that broke the camel's back?
Because it sounds like he had done things like that
throughout your time together, sending these very mixed messages of
come close, no go away, come close, go away, and
then there's this one incident that sounds not that different
from the other things that went on. What was it
(18:28):
about that one?
Speaker 4 (18:29):
I think part of me was scared of him. Again,
he was never physical with me, but I was scared
of him in the sense that, you know, he was
always yelling at me. So I definitely think at that
point I was walking on eggshells around him, was afraid
of him. So I think I didn't know I wanted
(18:54):
to break up with him. I just didn't know how
because I think I still was afraid of him.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
The relationship. Were you ever able to say to him, Hey,
I didn't like when you did that.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I definitely did at first when we were like officially dating. Now,
I wouldn't stand up for myself. Every time he came
to visit me at school. We always got into a fight.
He was always mad about something, and I always just
apologized to him and begged for his forgiveness. And there
was actually a specific incident that happened where one of
(19:30):
my friends was also visiting me that weekend with him.
I think it was my birthday weekend, and I just
remember fighting between the two of us and it was
just awful. And the next day my friend had like
pulled me aside and she said, you know, Kayla, I'm
(19:50):
really worried, Like he just started yelling at you out
of nowhere. She said, I was with you the whole night.
You did absolutely nothing wrong, and she wasn't like, oh,
break up with him, but she expressed a lot of
concern about that kind of behavior. So I think after
that sort of the dynamics switched where I started to
(20:12):
challenge him because I think it felt good to have
a friend tell me I wasn't crazy, because I legitimately
thought I was the problem in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
You know, you mentioned that you felt a lot of
and still feel a lot of shame about the relationship
and that you didn't really talk to friends much about it.
But after that experience, when a friend actually just sees
something and a good friend she is to come up
to you and say I'm worried without going too much
further than I'm worried. I think she handled it really well.
(20:44):
Why did that not make you feel more comfortable, even
with this one friend being more open about what was
going on, or sharing some of the dilemmas or the
painful moments. Why did you still that to yourself when
he's one friend who sees there's something going on and
is clearly supportive.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I think I didn't share because I knew what everyone
was going to say. I think I knew people were
going to tell me to leave him, and I don't
think I was ready at that point.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's interesting, cable because in fact, a friend you pointed
out very specifically in that first comment was I'm worried
for you, and you specifically said she didn't tell me
I should leave or anything. It was your own fear
that if I tell them, and I am open with them,
and I hear my own mouth say these things about him,
I'll think I really have to leave, rather than they'll
(21:39):
think I really have to leave.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, definitely, And that makes me wonder a little bit
if you have any ideas now in retrospect about what
do you think it was that made you continue to
stay in a relationship where that behavior was going on.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
They think my childhood was not that great in the
sense that in school I was the weird girl. I
was the girl that didn't have any friends. I struggled
academically up until I got to high school, and I
also was an athletic, so I think from a social aspect,
(22:18):
I didn't have that much confidence because I.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Was that weird girl.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
So I think that's why I was even more attracted
to him at first, because here I was getting attention
from the popular kid, which was something I think my
inner child desired.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
What made you weird exactly?
Speaker 4 (22:38):
I was one of the youngest kids in my grade,
and I just struggled academically. Looking back, I just believe
that I was physically and emotionally immature. And my parents
are blue collar workers, so I think, you know, while
they were very physically present, they didn't really know how
(23:01):
to help me academically. So I would always like bring
home like failed tests and they would just yell at
me to get better grades, but never actually helping me
to Teachers told my parents I should be in special
education classes, so that only further made me think low
of myself. But I just didn't really have the right
(23:22):
resources available to me. And it was funny. By the
time I got to high school, I started to get
straight a's. And I think the reason I'm such an
overtiever now is because of that feeling like I have
to prove something that in her child I still think
hurts or grieves like the life that.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
She thought she should have had. It was definitely rough.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
In your letter, you talked about grieving this time in
your life that you spent with Jay, But what you're
talking about now is grieving those years of childhood. Long
before you met Jay, you were so isolated, so alone,
weren't really seen in the way that you needed to
be seen. And I think this grief piece is really
(24:07):
important because when we're trying to process a loss, sometimes
what we do is we confuse one loss with another loss.
And because you had had that experience in childhood, and
then you had this experience of a not very good
relationship in your late teens early twenties, you're still you
(24:29):
say in your letter, grieving this period of your life
that you wish had gone differently. And I wonder if
you would feel that same way about the j relationship
if you hadn't also been grieving the losses that you
experienced in childhood.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah, I do wonder that sometimes, but.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
It definitely feels lonely because I feel like sometimes I
can't really talk about it.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
With anyone because what do you imagine would happened?
Speaker 4 (25:07):
I just think, you know, my family and friends have
been like worried about me, probably up until like a
few years ago, and I just feel like I need
to present like this stable person at this point, so
I sort of suppress a lot of what I'm feeling
or tell my therapist. But it definitely feels lonely. I
(25:30):
want to forget about it on the outside, but on
the inside I can't forget about it.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Do your parents know you said that your friends would
notice some of Jay's behavior. Did your parents ever say
we're worried about this?
Speaker 4 (25:45):
They never said anything. Like recently, with like in the
last couple of years, they've said, like, you know, we
didn't know it was this bad. You hid a lot
from us, But they said we knew the relationship wasn't good,
they didn't realize it was abusive.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
And how did they find out that it was abusive
if you weren't talking about it.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
My sister had told them. There was one night I
had a complete mental breakdown about.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
This after the relationship ended.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yeah, after I had pursued one of these emotionally unavailable guys.
Once that happened, I sort of was like crying over
that guy as well as Jay. And like my parents
like sometimes would joke about my ex Jay, and I
think when they were joking one time, my sister said, like,
you don't You can't joke about that relationship. You don't
(26:41):
realize how bad it was. And I think my parents
were floored. She just was trying to get like my
parents to realize that they failed me in a sense.
At least that's my sister told my parents. That's her opinion.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
What does your sister think your parents should have done
or what do you think they should have done given
that they didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Like I said, my parents blue collar workers. They we
didn't have the most money growing up, but they really
worked very hard to give us a good life. And
as much as I love them, I think growing up
their focus was always on what looks good on paper.
The message me and my sister received when we're going
to college, like you need to pick a major that
(27:28):
is going to you're going to make six figures right
right out of school. You cannot major in education. You're
not going to get a job as a teacher. The
keeping me in sports growing up when I wasn't good
at them, and that sort of like ruined my self
confidence because when you're, you know, an eleven year old girl,
you compare yourself to your peers, and you know, me
(27:51):
and my sister used to cry and beg our parents,
you know, please let us quit the sport, Please let
us quit this club, and it was always like, no,
you have to do everything you can do to make
your resume look good. So I think my sister, you know,
felt like my parents failed me in the sense that
(28:12):
they never cared about my happiness.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That you didn't have the tools to really listen to
what you wanted or desired because you didn't have practice
with that.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, like everything I would like come to my parents
with was always dismissed. You know, something as silly as
wanting to quit softball. I would have so much anxiety
going to practice. I used to cry in the bathroom
because I didn't want to play it, and I would
cry to my parents and it was just sort of
(28:45):
like too bad. So I think I just learned to
do things that I didn't want to do in life,
learned to stay in jobs too long, stayed in relationships.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Longer than they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You said that your parents are really concerned about you
getting a job where you made a lot of money
right out of college and that things looked a certain way.
Did you end up choosing a career based on what
they wanted?
Speaker 3 (29:18):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
I was always good at math in high school because
I had sort of dealt with a lot of depression
and anxiety. I actually wanted to major in psychology. I
wanted to become like a therapist because I said I
wanted to help people like me.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
And.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I was told like, no, you're going to need to
go to grad school for that major. It was basically like,
you're good at math, so just do something in business.
So I chose finance, and it definitely didn't belong in
that major.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
A lot of the reasons why I even stayed in
my relationship with Jay's because I was very unhappy in college,
forcing something that wasn't meant for me, and he was
my only source of happiness really at the time. I mean,
he wasn't happiness for me. But that was my only.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Crutch, let's call it an escape.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
Yeah, and even the message like you have to get
a job at a big bank, and that job was
also one of the worst experiences of my life. I
don't actively blame my parents anymore. I see them for
who they are with their own issues. I just wished
(30:38):
they would have listened to me. I wish I would
have had the insight to, like, you know, go to
college and choose my own major, or at least I
wish I could have dual majored in psychology. I wish
I would have done something for myself. But the message
was so ingrained in me that life is hard and
(31:00):
you just have to accept it for what it is.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Have you ever told them that you feel this way?
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Yes, they harbor a lot of guilt.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
My parents were actually paying recently for my therapy and
I didn't ask them to. I think they just feel
so bad for what had happened, and they've seen me
have you know, a ton of mental breakdowns over my job.
So I think knowing that they're sorry helped me forgive
(31:36):
them a little bit, and not.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Just being sorry, but knowing that they can actually see you.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, Taylor, you said, your sister the one that told
your parents about what was going on with Jay, and
your sister is the one that got through to them
about this stuff as well. Do you have a relationship
now where you don't need your sister and if something
is going on, if there's something you wanted to bring up,
you feel comfortable doing it in a way that they
(32:03):
can hear and respond to.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Luckily, yes, it took up me a long time to
get there, but I have really strong boundaries with my
parents and they respect them. For example, my mother she
knows when she comments on my clothes. I know it's
very trivial, but if she comments on my parents, she
knows I'm going to flip out on her. Probably isn't
(32:28):
the mature thing to do, but I've gone into a
place where my boundaries are my boundaries, and I'm really
proud of the boundaries I have with my parents, and
I think because they respect my boundaries, I can have
a good relationship with them.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I'm wondering if the timing of having boundaries with your
parents and having them really see you coincides with not
going after unavailable men anymore and meeting your fiance.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
So I think some of the men, well, two of
them were divorced, and they were only divorced for a month,
So I think that should have been my first red
flag that maybe they weren't ready to be in a relationship.
I think after you dating some men like this, I
had rules for myself. One of them was something as
(33:22):
silly as they couldn't add me on social media unless
they were serious about being serious with me. I try
to look at everything and say like, Okay, they may
have messed up, but where did I fail to see
the red flags?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
What did I just sweep under the rug that shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Been So it sounds like you were learning from these
relationships with people who weren't available or weren't wanting what
you were wanting at the same time, But in your
letter you present it as if you're just not learning anything.
You said something like I've learned nothing from this, and
yet you were starting to set boundaries. You were coming
(33:59):
up with what are my limits? You were looking at
yourself and saying, what is my role in this? And
then you started to have a different relationship with your parents,
and you also met your fiance. So help us understand
your perception from your letter that nothing has changed to
I met this guy, and I'm in this really different
(34:22):
relationship than I've ever been in.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I still see myself as this helpless young child.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
As proud as I am of the strides I've made,
as happy as I am with my fiance, I still
am scared that I can't trust myself. I'm even scared
to be one thousand percent happy with my fiance because
I'm scared that I'm just going to keep making mistakes.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Can you just clarify what mistakes you could make with
your field and say right now?
Speaker 4 (34:58):
For example, I'm scared to want a baby, And the
reason why I'm scared to want a baby is because
I convinced myself that I'm infertile, even though I go
to the doctors yearly. There's nothing wrong with me. But
I'm just convinced that I can't have what other people have.
And I'm even like scared to plan a wedding because
(35:22):
I'm just I'm just like, it's going to rain, something's
gonna happen. I'm just like, oh, like, let me just
elope so that I don't have expectations. I sort of
self sabotage to manage so cold foreseeable failure.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So desire is dangerous, yes, because the other shoe could
easily drop.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Yeah, so that's right. Sometimes I feel like a fraud.
My fiance adores me, and I'm like, what do you adore?
He's never given me a reason not to trust him,
or every day he shows me that he loves me
in some capacity.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
What do you love about him?
Speaker 4 (36:04):
I love that he's always there for me. Besides the
fact that he's very physically attractive, at least to me,
his comfort to means everything. His friendship to me is everything.
He's a very sensitive guy, and that's very different than
anyone have ever dated. His emotions are on his sleeve
(36:28):
and I never have to guess what he's thinking. He
surprises me with flowers all the time, or he'll cook
for me and he'll say, like, you know, I made
this meal with love. Just a lot of little things
that I really have grown to appreciate about him.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So you were talking about how cared for you feel
by your fiance, and at the same time you're afraid
to really talk to him about some of your experiences
that still live inside of it. What do you think
makes for that disconnect between I really trust this person
and I really feel cared for, and I also don't
(37:11):
want to open up to him. Is that the other
shoes going to drop? And if so, how might it drop.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
I don't think he would leave me or anything if
I did open up. I really think it's rooted back
in the shame I still feel from the experience. I
want to present that things are peachy, when in reality
there's turmoil inside. I think it's really just the vulnerability
(37:42):
of opening up to such rough subjects, to dark times
in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You have shame about the relationship with Jay, but do
you also have shame specifically about your elementary school experiences?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (37:57):
I mean, you know, what are people going to say
if I'm like, oh, you know, I was a loser
in elementary school? And I know that's dramatic. I know
it's not that dark, but you know, it scares me.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
I notice how much you downplay your experiences. Earlier in
our conversation, you said about a boundary that you were setting.
This might sound silly, when it was not a silly
boundary at all. It was a very valid boundary to set.
And now you're saying you're being dramatic by talking about
what sounds like a very lonely and painful time in
(38:31):
your childhood. You said after the Jay relationship that they
have to be emotionally available, they have to be stable,
and you have this partner who seems to be that,
but you don't seem to want to be emotionally available
in your upcoming marriage. What do you think will happen
(38:54):
if you continue to hide like this?
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I mean, worst case a divorce.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
Obviously that's not something I would ever want, but I
understand what you're saying, Laurie. If we did have kids,
if I'm going to do what my parents did to
my kids and invalidate their emotions that you know, that
terrifies me too, even have kids, to know, like, what
if I screw them up the way my parents screwed
me up? You know, what if I invalidate their emotions
(39:22):
or their needs, or you know, if I have kids,
what if I try to give them the life that
I always wanted but never had and force them to.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Do things they don't want to do.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
First of all, it sounds like you're so aware of
these things in a way that parents who do do
those things to their kids maybe aren't so aware that
they're doing it. But also you went away from my question,
and I bring that up because again we're talking about
the emotional intimacy with your fiance, and when I go there,
(39:57):
you go to a different worry. So if we can
sit for a second and think about that and see
what happens in your body as that question goes through you,
you imagine being emotionally available to him. What do you
(40:17):
imagine it will feel like to be with this person
who really cares about you? But then you stay closed
off in certain ways, so you're kind of unknowable. He
doesn't really get to know you, and in certain ways
you won't really get to know him.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Feels like really unfair to him and to myself.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
How does it feel unfair to you?
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Because I deserve to make peace and I deserve to
express myself, and I just keep denying myself that it's
only going to just further confirm to my self disbelief
that I'm not worthy.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
It's a cruel form of self sabotage.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
It's self sabotage in the name of self protection, except
that it doesn't actually protect you. It leaves you more
vulnerable to things going wrong.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, what I'm hearing from you is that there is
a way in which you actually really don't feel worthy
because you still feel in part and too much like
the weirdo kid, the loser as you represent it, and
(41:37):
you still have so much shame around Jay, and I
think what's preventing you from opening up and being emotionally
available to your fiance and to other people in your
life perhaps is that there is very very little self
compassion in all those formulations. You are viewing yourself through
(42:00):
the eyes of a young girl that was really suffering
and really having a hard time. Till you can start
thinking of your history and of yourself with much much
more self compassion, it's going to be very hard for
you to open up.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, you said that your finance job made you miserable.
Have you made a change since that job?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (42:27):
I quit was sort of another moment similar to when
I broke up with Jay, where I felt very empowered.
Within like two months, I literally lost like twenty five pounds,
like just the stress just evaporated from my body. That's
how much stress I was holding in to my body
from that job, and it just left. I didn't even
(42:49):
like change my diet, and everyone was like, you just
look like a different person, And I think once I
left that job that was suffocating to me is when
I really decided did that things needed to change. And
I almost can thank my fiance a little bit for that,
because he has a job that he loves and he
(43:12):
almost inspired me to seek different for myself.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
So are you pursuing something that excites you.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
I took a different job at a much smaller firm
and I've been there for like a year and a half.
Speaker 5 (43:27):
Now.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
I am still like in the sort of the finance world,
but I'm working nine to five, which is just amazing.
My priority has been trying to fix myself, if you.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Will, or can we say, maybe trying to heal myself.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Yeah, my priority has been to heal myself. I'm, you know,
in therapy. I'm reading books again, which is something I
haven't done in years. I have, you know, dabbled in
yoga a little bit.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Though.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I think my career is sort of on a back
burner right now because I'm trying to fix these other
areas of my life first.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
And where in all of this is your interest in
psychology and your desire to become a therapist.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
I mean, I still think I would love to be one.
I know I could do it if I really wanted to, So,
sort of like I do another areas of my life,
I kind of keep my life small, or I stay
in this limbo to protect myself.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Does your fiance know about that desire?
Speaker 4 (44:34):
He does, and he said, like, if you want to
do it, you know, I'll support you. But I'm scared
to shake things up in my life because right now
I feel a lot better. But I'm scared to be
too happy and I'm scared to be too depressed. So
(44:56):
I keep myself in a limbo area.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Saying that you're afraid to feel too happy and you're
afraid to go spiraling down into depression. So you want
to stay in this kind of safe middle. But the
problem with that is that you don't really feel Yeah,
so I think there is something in between depression and
just not feeling great that day. But for you, it's
(45:22):
like it's either going to be really great or really awful,
kind of like it was with Jay. You know, things
are great he called me he wants me, or things
are terrible. He's ignoring me, or he's treating me poorly.
And so your idea to solve that problem is to
just kind of stay in this safe middle. And what
(45:42):
I want to suggest is that if you mute one feeling,
you mute the others. And so you're so afraid of
feeling joy that you're muting some of the pain, and
you're so afraid of going into the pain that you're
muting the joy, and so you're not really kind of
alone live in your emotional world. And you again have
(46:04):
this all or nothing idea that well, i'd have to
kind of drop everything into a psychology program when I
don't know if I'm committed as opposed to maybe I'll
just take a class in psychology, just one and see
if I like it.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you, Kayla, in the therapy
that you've had, has the topic of anxiety.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
Come up now? I was always very focused on the
depression part of myself, or I thought that was the
most urgent thing that needed to be addressed. We never
really got to the anxiety part.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I'm asking because I hear an undercurrent of anxiety in
almost everything that you're talking about. By definition, anxiety is
a fear of an unspecified, non immediate, vague kind of
dread of something bad will happen. It's not an articulated
what that bad might be. It's not something that's looming
(46:58):
this second, it might happen later or tomorrow or next week.
And that feeling of dread is the thing that people
interpret sometimes as fear. But one of the biggest responses
people have to anxiety is avoidance. They avoid the things
that make them anxious. And you have a pattern of
(47:20):
avoidance in your life, the avoiding getting too close to
people by sharing truly what's going on, Avoiding going after
the things you really really want, experiencing the joy which
you know is there to be had in certain areas,
because then what if I get blindsided and something goes
wrong and there's no indication anything going wrong in your
(47:43):
relationship with your fiance, Does that resonate with you in
any way, that there's this undercurrent of anxiety that's been
going on in your life as well?
Speaker 4 (47:53):
Spot On, It's even funny, I'm like trying to convince
my fiance that I don't want to have a bridal
party because I don't even want to like offend people
by not like choosing them as bridesmaids.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
My go to is just to avoid even having a
bridal party.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
So it's interesting you bring that up because It manifests.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
So many different ways in my life.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
And it's important to label it anxiety because if you
don't label it anxiety, then you start coming up with
rationales for it and justifying them. So why I'm saying that,
I want you to note this idea of calling things
anxiety when it fits that pattern, because then you at
least know, no, that's not necessarily a real danger, that's anxiety.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
I think I've been focused on depression as the driver
that I neglected to see, you know, anxiety in the
passenger seat.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
You did that with the kids too, that I'm afraid
to have kids because I might do things to them
that would repeat what my parents did with me. I'm
afraid to entertain the idea of psychology because I don't
know if I'm committed to it yet. There's a reason
for everything that you come up with. But underneath that,
(49:09):
what happens is, and you've used this word several times today,
self sabotage in the name of self protection when it
doesn't actually protect you, does not keep you safe. It
keeps you on high alert. As guy was saying, that's
the anxiety. You're always on high alert, and you come
(49:29):
by that Honestly, you've had experiences that might have taught
you that you need to be accept Now you're in
a different situation, you don't need to be in high
alert around those things anymore.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
And the last thing about anxiety is it's exhausting because
you have to do these mental gymnastics and these accountings
and these rationales and explaining and avoiding. It just keeps
you very busy.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
And the other function of it is that while you're
spinning in your head, you don't really have room to
connect with your fiance, maybe with your friends, maybe with
yourself in the ways that I think would create a
much richer experience for you.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
So, Kayla, we have some advice for you. Here's the
first part. As I said, I was concerned that you
are very self critical and that you need to improve
your self compassion skills and practice. What would like you
to do is would like you to make a list
of the ten greatest self critical hits that play out
(50:42):
in your head, things like I was a weirdo, or
it's shameful that I stayed in a relationship that was abusive,
what's wrong with me? Whatever the narratives are, write out
the full sentences of the really harsh statements that you
make for yourself. So make that list of ten, and
(51:03):
then for each one, present the self compassionate option. The
self compassionate option for I was a weirdo in school
was I was depressed and I felt very alone, and
I didn't have anyone to talk to, and I didn't
connect with people, and I was really unhappy. Again, self
compassion is about how you would talk to a friend
(51:24):
or what's somebody who really cared about you, how they
would frame that rather than the self critical way. So
that's what would like you to do. Ten of the
most self critical statements and then ten self compassionate takes
on those exact same statements.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
And we think that will help with the next part
of the assignment, which is when you can have a
little more self compassion for yourself, you might be able
to start to connect with other people in a deeper way.
And we want you to start with your fiance. We
would like you to talk to him about some of
the things that you haven't shared with him yet. For example,
(52:03):
when that thing happened where he said he was joking
about you left the dishes in the sink, and you
immediately got up and said, Oh, I'll take care of
that right away. You said, he sort of understands where
that comes from, Yeah, but not completely. We would like
you to tell him that you have been holding back
a little bit because you have a lot of shame
(52:24):
around some parts of your life that happened before you
met him, and that as you start this marriage together,
you really want to practice being more connected and open
and you value so much how much he cares for
you and the trust that you have with him, and
(52:47):
so you want to share with him something that feels
very delicate to you, and then tell him a little
bit about your childhood and what that was like what
you shared with us today, and maybe tell him a
little little bit about how much shame you have around
staying with this person in your early twenties that still
(53:10):
haunts you today and that you're really working on that,
but you just want him to know that it's there
because you want to get closer with him, share with
us what it felt like to share this with him,
and then also how he responded to you. And then
the third thing we'd like you to do is that
we noticed again that you are a master of coming
(53:31):
up with reasons that you can't do or have the
things that you want. And you talked about how much
you would have liked to have pursued psychology or at
least explored it if finance was not the mandate in
your household, and so we want you to really have
the space to explore that. And that doesn't mean you
(53:52):
have to commit to a graduate program when you have
no idea if you really want to do this yet.
But what we'd like you to do is to take
a class. We want you to sign up for a
psychology class. There's probably one at your local community college.
There might be one online. It might be more fun
if you go in person. But as you're doing your
(54:12):
yoga and your therapy and all of the other things
you're doing to heal, we'd like you to invest a
little bit of time in your joy. And what you
can learn from this experience is you might say, oh,
you know what, I don't actually like that after all,
but it inspires me to think about what I might
enjoy more than finance. Maybe it's not psychology. Or you
(54:34):
might say I really love this. I might want to
take a second class, or I might want to get
some brochures about graduate school or whatever it is, but
either way, it will give you some useful information that
is coming from your desires, your wishes, and not some
external mandate that you've been living with for a very
(54:54):
long time. So you want to give some space to
your desires.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
One lost. We were thinking also about the anxiety that
you have, especially around experiencing joy. So we would like
this week you to catch, if possible, five times that
you are thinking about things that could bring you joy
in a way that's full of dread and avoidance. For example,
(55:20):
how can I have a bridal shower. I'll alienate one
of my friends, so I can't do that. You have
that thought, all you need to do is go, okay,
that's an anxious thought. That's not a realistic concern. That's anxiety.
Or I can't have kids because I might end up
perting them in some way as a parent, So let's
just avoid having kids all together. Any one of those
(55:41):
things that comes up that are things that could bring
you joy or pleasure and the dread comes up about
them just to label them anxiety. This is my anxiety
around joy. We want you to do in that way
so that when you have anxiety around joy and you
take it less seriously as a threat and were like,
(56:02):
here's me doing this anxiety around joy thing, and so
that's why we want you to catch it as much
as possible this week.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
Okay, it sounds really good.
Speaker 4 (56:10):
I didn't really realize to an extent that it was
almost controlling my life. So even just recognizing that already
just makes me feel a lot better and a little hopeful.
So I'm definitely excited to do these tasks that you
both mentioned.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Well, we're very excited for you to try these things
this week, and we look forward to hearing how it goes.
Speaker 4 (56:32):
Yeah, thank you or thank you guys so much for
having me on the show. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
So I was really surprised when we started a session
today and the first thing Kayla told us was that
she not only was engaged, but had been dating this
very seemingly emotionally available man for two years. And it
seems so strange before we got to know her, but
once we started unpacking some of this, it actually made
(57:06):
sense that it is so terrifying for her to even
voice something good in her life that she just pushes
it down. She couldn't tell us this good thing had
happened in her life. She couldn't write it down until
we actually were in session, and she had to tell
us so that we could do the session with her right.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
It was really difficult for her to add that in
her letter and say, oh, but things are good in
this area because she has so much anxiety and dread
about that going south at some point.
Speaker 1 (57:35):
The going south part is the part that really trips
her up. That I can't hold to tightly onto the
things that bring me joy because something will go wrong.
I can't think about having kids because I might repeat
the patterns of my parents. I can't think about my
bridal shower, even though that might be really fun, because
I might offend someone. I can't think about this career
(57:58):
that I might want to have because I'm supposed to
do finance. And it's interesting that when you brought up
anxiety that seemed to really resonate with her, that she
hadn't thought about it that way. And that's so common
I think for anybody listening, this idea that when we're
spinning around something or we're perseverating on something, and we
focus on something almost obsessively, that there's something else that
(58:20):
we are afraid of. And when we get to that fear,
it becomes much less scary. If we can just name
the fear, the anxiety goes down.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
I love by the way her phrasing of I thought
depression was driving this. I didn't realize anxiety was in
the passenger seat. As you know, Laurie, those two go
on road trips together all the time.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
They're fast friends. Yes, so we gave her a bunch
of things to think about this week and to do
this week, and I am really looking forward to hearing
how that all goes for her, as am I.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
You listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a
short break, So Laurie, we heard back from Kayla. Let's
hear how she did this week.
Speaker 5 (59:15):
Hey Laurie, Hey guy, it's Kayla. I'm here to talk
about the task that you have both given me too
complete over the past week. Vers One guy maybe wanted
me to make a list of ten self critical hits
with the self compassion component, and I wanted to share
one that I had written out. So the self critical
(59:36):
hit is I should have never gotten into a relationship
with Jay, And the self compassion component that I wrote
out was I have always felt like the outcasts in society.
Being with a popular guy like Jay gave me more
confidence and maybe believe I was worthy of love even
if it didn't work out. I think writing that out,
(59:58):
I try to imagine myself what my friend would say
to me, but I really try to believe that it
was something I would say to myself. So I definitely
think this exercise really really challenged me and enjoyed, you know,
sort of writing out the self compassion components.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
You know.
Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
The second thing you would have requested was to connect
with my fancy more. And I talked to him about everything,
including what it was like an elementary school for me,
and sort of more about what happened in the relationship
with Jay, and to my surprise, but probably not to
(01:00:36):
Laurie or guy surprised, his response is sort of like,
you know, I wish you had told me sooner. We
were able to have a conversation about it, and I
feel pretty good after sharing with him, so I think
it's something I'm going to continue going forward. The third thing, Laurie,
I know you have requested that I sign up for
(01:00:57):
a psychology class. Unfortunately I have not done that yet.
I just not for me. I can mentally get myself
to do right now, but I feel hopeful that it
is something I will do one day. So I just
really want to thank you both for taking the time
(01:01:19):
to speak with me. Really put a lot of things
into perspective. I made me think.
Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
About a lot of different things. So I hope you
both take care.
Speaker 6 (01:01:31):
So we give people a lot to do every week
because we only have one session with them, And with
the first two tests that we gave Kayla, it sounds
like she did beautifully. She got out of her shame
and went into a place of compassion with some of
the narratives that she had been carrying around, and she
was able to talk to her fiance and start to
(01:01:55):
connect with him in a different way without hiding some
of these parts of her past that felt so shameful
to her. And I think that's all very positive.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
But when it came to the other two tasks around
signing up for the psychology class and identifying her anxiety
around joy, she seems to have struggled with those two.
Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
And I want our listeners to understand that when we
give these multi component tasks, it's for a reason, because
things are always connected, and so the idea of the
psychology class was not well. Try psychology was a symbolic
way to step out of her parents' expectations and do
(01:02:37):
the thing that she had trouble advocating for herself when
she was younger, and the task around the anxiety around
joy was an important task also to create a separation
between the previous history that she had of really struggling
with anxiety but thinking that actually her desire and her
(01:03:00):
wishes and her wants were problematic like having children, as
opposed to realizing that that was about anxiety and they're
all connected. So that first part of leaning into the
engagement more and being more self compassionate is something she
did well. But I hope, Kaylor, if you're listening to this,
I would urge you to pick up those other two
(01:03:23):
tasks and do them if you can, because they, together
with the first two, which we hope you'll keep working on,
as you said, together will help you really change the
old patterns that tend to be dominant in our lives
when we've had them for many years, and we need
a multi prompt approach to really break out of them.
(01:03:44):
And I hope if you can do all of those things,
it would really help you move forward. In a really
substantial way. Next week, we're checking in with Doug, who
struggled with a fear of intimacy after an emotional scarring relationship,
to hear how he's doing one year later.
Speaker 7 (01:04:04):
It's really hard for me to open up to him
because every time in the past I've opened up about
my feelings, it's either bend, met with rejection or met
with OCD. So it's really hard for me to trust
that I can have a safe person to open up too.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please
help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it
and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington,
and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gujierrez
(01:04:56):
and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast fairy
god mother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
at our next session. Theotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Fisher Food
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com