Encore: S04 Ep 01 - Amanda’s Cheating Husband

This week, we’re in session with Amanda, who’s wondering if she should leave her husband after finding out he repeatedly cheated on her with other women. We help her to get past her fear and prioritize her own wellbeing.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront the problems in their lives and
then give them actionable advice and have them report back
to let us know what happened when they did what
we suggested.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
a woman whose husband has repeatedly cheated on her wonders
if she should leave.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
The reason why I told him to leave the house
was that I didn't want to fight with him in
front of our son, and I told him I need
you to take this time to figure out why you
do this, What is happening that you need validation from
other women first.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment
by submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia
use it in part or in full, and we may
edit it for length and clarity. In the session, you'll
hear all names have been changed for the privacy of
our guests.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hi Guy, Hi.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Laurie, and to our listeners. Today we're doing something quite
different and quite exciting. We are taping a regular episode
of the show. But we're doing it in front of
a live audience of two hundred and fifty therapists. Because
Y used two if you can have two hundred and fifty,
the guest cannot see the audience, and the audience cannot

(01:39):
see the guest. Only Lauri and I can. So all
the privacy and confidentiality are being maintained. So with that
in mind, Laurie, what do we have in our mailbox today?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Today? We have a letter about whether to stay in
a relationship after infidelity and it goes like this, Therapists.
My husband and I are in our late thirties and
have been together for almost sixteen years and married for nine.
We have a fourteen year old son together. About two
years ago, my husband came to me and admitted that

(02:12):
he had been cheating on me with his ex girlfriend
from his twenties. He said he felt guilty and that
he needed to come clean. I appreciated his honesty and
that was the basis of the start of our healing.
I was obviously very hurt and shocked. I asked that
he cut all ties in contact with his ex, including
social media. He told me he had, but I found
out three weeks later that wasn't the truth. I was broken.

(02:35):
How could he lie to me? After I chose to
forgive him for his honesty, I was ready to leave him,
but he begged me for another chance, so I gave.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
It to him.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
I went to therapy shortly after, and I told him
that he needed to as well. We did couples counseling
with my therapist twice and he never came back, saying,
quote he didn't like it, quote we don't need it,
and quote we can talk about our problems on our own. Recently,
I found a text message on his eyepad that I
confronted him about. I am not a snooper, but my
gut was telling me I was onto something. He apologized

(03:06):
and told me he didn't know what was going on
with him and why he was doing this to us.
He explained that he's going through a lot mentally, and
it was the same cycle again. I asked that they
cut ties. He said he did, but a week and
a half later I found messages upon messages on his
Instagram showing that the relationship never ended. If anything, they
were messaging each other more frequently. When I first found

(03:27):
out and asked if he had sex with her, he
said they did not, But upon reading the messages, I
know now that that was also a lie. To say
that I am shattered is an understatement. I've asked him
to move out temporarily. I cannot even be around him,
let alone look at him. I feel lost, angry, betrayed, disrespected, unworthy,
and defeated. I took pictures of his messages as proof

(03:49):
of his lie, and I can't stop reading them. I
don't know what to do. Do I forgive him for
the sake of saving our family? How could I trust
him again? Is it worth it? Does a marriage survive
a second infidelity? I need some guidance. Amanda.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Wow, So Amanda has been through a lot. Her question
was does a marriage survive a second infidelity or betrayal?
I kind of counted five in the letter alone at
least because he comes clean. Then he tells her that
he cut ties, but then it turns out he didn't
cut ties. Then he tells he he'll go to therapy,
but then he doesn't go to therapy. It doesn't continue

(04:26):
with the therapy. Then two years go by, she finds
out it's still going on. He tells her he never
slept with her, yet that was wrong too. So there's
so many lies in BETRAYLSI a way more than two.
And this pattern Amanda has of minimizing looks like it's
still in full force. To me.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, it seems like she has a lot of denial
going on. And I thought it was interesting in the
letter where he said he came to her because he
wanted to relieve his guilt. He didn't come to her
because he wanted to fix things. He cared about her feelings,
and it seems like he has this pattern of repeatedly
disregarding her feelings and making it more about him continuing

(05:08):
the behaviors. So I'm curious to know now where she
is weeks later, and if her denial is still in
full force or if she's kind of waking up a
little bit because she did ask him to leave, So
let's bring her in and let's find out. You're listening
to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back
after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapist.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
So Hi, Amanda, Hello, welcome to our show.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
So, Amanda, we read your letter. I know that was
written a few weeks ago. At least in your letter,
you said that your husband temporarily moved out. Can you
tell us what's happened since he wrote the letter.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Yes, he's still out. He's still not back home, but
him and our son have talked, and we've talked as well,
and just are trying to figure out what we have
to do moving forward. But he is still not in
the home.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
When you say what we have to do to move forward,
what does he think he has to do?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
That's a really good question. I don't think he knows either,
So I'm just letting him navigate that on his own
while I'm also trying to navigate what I feel like
I need to do as well.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Tell us a little bit about that, about what you
feel you need to do.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
I have besides you both I actually have a therapy
session as well coming up for myself and my husband
and I have talked about doing therapy together, and I
gave him the instruction that he needed to find that
therapist for us.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Does he have a certain time by which he should
find that therapist. It sounds like the two of you
have been in this crisis for a few weeks now.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
I did not give him a timeline, but recently he
had asked me and discussed that he wanted to do
that together because he has been looking and he said
he's done his research, but he would like for us
to look together what he has found.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
I'm hearing two things. I'm hearing he decided he was
going to find a therapist, and then I'm hearing he
did his research. And then I'm hearing and you guys
can't see this, but she's smiling, so she's seeing a
little bit through the denial here. And then you're saying,
but now he's saying, oh, no, no, no, we need
to do this.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
I e.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Maybe you a Manda need to do this correct and
just to.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Understand about it. So it sounds like the two of
you are talking about how to move forward together. Is
that correct?

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yes and no. I think we're just trying to find
what is next for us, if there is still trust there,
if this is what he wants to be in this marriage.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
If this is what he wants, correct, what about what
you want?

Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's what I'm going to therapy for. So I think
that's what I've been trying to do myself and ask
myself those questions as well.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
So it's quite complicated these kinds of decisions, and it's
a very important decision, and all kinds of factors tell
us a little bit more about what's going through your
head over these past weeks. We'd like to hit some
of the points that you're taking into consideration when you're
weighing this kind of decision.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
I'm just trying to heal, I guess, and in a
way just take care of myself for now and figure
out if I can trust him again, and do I
want this and if we end up getting back together,
do I have to deal with this again in two years?

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Do you trying to figure out if you can trust
him by yourself without him participating in that process.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
No, we've seen each other and he's come over to
the house and we've spent time. We've gone out to dinner,
and the two times that we have gone out to dinner,
it's ended in argument. So that did not go very well.
So I'm a little lost too as well.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Can you tell us a little bit about how the
two of you met. You said in your letter that
you are in your late thirties and you've been together
for about I think it was sixteen years, and so
that would put you around how old were you twenty three?
You were twenty three, And you said that he had
another relationship with the person that his girlfriend from his twenties,

(10:02):
So how much time was there between the time that
he broke up with her and the time that the
two of you started dating, and then how did you
meet and what was the relationship like in those early days.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
This second woman was not his ex girlfriend, She was
not in his past. He met her two years ago
when he had another indiscretion with the ex girlfriend that
you're talking about, And so that ex girlfriend, I think
they were probably really broken up a couple of years

(10:40):
before I met him, and I think they stayed not
in contact, but they knew the same people and so
he would often see her, but they never had that
kind of a relationship again. Until about two years ago.
And when we first met, it was very fast. We
had our son a year after we met.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
How did that happen?

Speaker 3 (11:06):
We obviously started dating, seeing each other, talking on the phone, dating,
and he was actually an accident when we're not planning
to have him.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
But you had your son and then you only got
married when he was around five years old. What prompted
you getting married at that point?

Speaker 3 (11:24):
I think I had been asking about it and that
was obviously something that I wanted and I saw in
my future, and we had discussed it and he went
out and got an engagement ring and proposed to me.
So we were engaged for about two years, I believe,
before we actually got married, and that's how that came about.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
The relationship was so new when you got pregnant, and
it wasn't something that the two of you planned. What
were those conversations like between the two of you when
you found out you were pregnant. What were you feeling?
What was he feeling?

Speaker 3 (12:02):
I was obviously terrified because I come from a Christian background,
and I was terrified of my parents, specifically my dad.
When I found out I was pregnant and I told him,
he was very excited. We were both very excited. His
whole family was excited, and eventually I told my parents

(12:22):
and they were happy. They just wanted to make sure
that I was healthy and that we were going to
stay together and help raise the baby together even though
we weren't married, And that was what happened.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
And what were things like when you first had the baby.
How did the two of you deal with being new
parents together?

Speaker 3 (12:43):
It was hard. He worked, so I stayed up with
a baby mostly because I didn't work, so that was hard.
It was a hard couple of years.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
How is he as a dad?

Speaker 3 (12:56):
He's good. He's good as a dad. I think he's
also trying and maybe has been trying to find that
footing as well. His dad wasn't really present in his
life in the beginning of his life because he was
away for work. I was in his dad's fault. But
I think that's something that he's mentioned before, is that

(13:19):
he's not struggling, but obviously trying to figure out how
to be a dad without having his dad when he
was younger to kind of show him what that is like.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
What was the relationship between your parents, Like.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
My mother and father have been together for a long time,
and their relationship is good. But they also went through
some infidelity when I was.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
Younger that you knew about when I knew about, Yes.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
But you learned about when you were how.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Old I was seven?

Speaker 4 (13:53):
I believe you.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Were seven when you learned about it.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
When I heard about what happened. And I don't think
I put two and two together until it was a
little bit older what that meant. But I just knew
that that was something that was never talked about. But
I knew that happened.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
What happened at seven that made you suspect that something
had happened between your parents.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
I heard my mom on the phone. She had received
a letter, an anonymous letter, telling her of what happened,
and she was on the phone and I heard her.
She was angry. She didn't see me, but I heard her.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
And you didn't tell anyone that you had heard her.
I did not know how did your parents handle the
news once your mom found out? Did she talk to
your dad about it? Did you have any knowledge of
how they dealt with the news.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
I don't. I just know that, and my mom and
I have talked about this recently since I opened up
to her about this situation. And she basically agree that
they never talked about it.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Amanda, you said that you heard your mom on the
phone only when you were a little bit older. Did
you put things together and realize what that was about
what had happened? How old were you and what was
that like to figure it out?

Speaker 3 (15:16):
I believe I was nine or ten from what I
can remember my parents. I would hear them fight, and
I would hear the woman's name, and I would hear
them argue about it.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Do you find out that your dad has cheated on
your mom or was perhaps still doing so? You're still
really young, you're nine or ten? How did you feel
about your mom, about your dad, about what was going on?

Speaker 3 (15:40):
I felt bad for my mom, and I was angry
with my dad.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
You're tearing up a bit, and I'm wondering if there's
also some real sadness there too for yourself. Were you
able to cry the way you're crying right now when
you were younger?

Speaker 3 (16:00):
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
No, did you tell anyone? Who did you talk to
about this? When you were ten years old and you
find out.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
My mom we would mention it in kind of passing,
never in detail.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
What did that look like?

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I can remember one time I believe I said her
name and my dad got really upset.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
It sounds like you said her name in front of
your dad, but you said your mom and you mentioned
it in passing. How did that look like between the
two of you?

Speaker 3 (16:31):
From what I can remember, that was the one time
I did say her name and she talked to me
afterwards and said, you know, you can't say that anymore.
Your dad gets really upset. We're not going to.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Talk about that. Your dad gets really upset, I get
really upset. No, how did you understand that?

Speaker 3 (16:51):
Because that's how it was when I was growing up.
It was all about what my dad wanted. It was
about everything was his way or no way.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
So what do you think that taught you? At ten
years old, when you understand what's happened, and rather than
all the attention of going to your mom and how
she's feeling, it still goes back to your dad and
how he's feeling. What do you think that taught you.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
That my mom's feelings were not valid? My feelings weren't
valid because instead of talking about it, he got upset.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Amanda, do you have siblings?

Speaker 3 (17:32):
No?

Speaker 1 (17:32):
So you were all alone in this as a child
in this house where everybody knows, and everybody knows that
everybody knows, and nobody is acknowledging it except the one
time you do, in which case the person who gets
upset is the person committing the infidelity.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Did you ever talk to your dad about this even
as an adult?

Speaker 4 (18:01):
Never?

Speaker 1 (18:02):
And you don't know if it continues to this day.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
I don't think it does. Actually I can't say. I
don't really know, but I would like to hope that
it does not.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Did you ever ask your mom why she stayed with
him if that was going on and perhaps could have
continued to go on. Did you ask her what her
decision making was?

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yes? She says she did it for me. She didn't
want me to grow up without my father. She didn't
want me to grow up without the two of them,
so she stayed and that she did it for me.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
She still with him, Yes, correct, Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Is she staying now for you or is she staying
now for her?

Speaker 3 (18:46):
I think she's staying because they have a lot together
intermixed their lives, I believe. I asked her a couple
of years ago why she stays, and she said, they
have a lot of stuff together.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
You said in your letter that you were worried about
what this would do to your family, and particularly what
it would do to your son if you two split up,
And now you're saying your mother stayed for that reason,
but you're long gone and she's still with your dad. Yes,
do you think that maybe that's not the whole story

(19:23):
about why you keep staying that it's for your son.
Maybe your face just did all kinds of things. Tell
me more about what the feelings were that made your
face make all those expressions at once.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
I don't want to give up so easily, I guess,
and I want to make sure that I try my
best to keep this family together.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Amanda. I'm asking about your feelings, and I think it's
hard sometimes for you to stay there because when you
were younger, you just had to push the feelings down.
You just had to kind of say, Okay, well, my
mom's feeling a lot of stuff, my dad's feeling a
lot of stuff. I'm feeling a lot of stuff. But
we just can't really acknowledge that. Yes, sometimes when we

(20:15):
grow up that way, we don't have a lot of
practice sitting with our feelings. In the minute we feel something,
it feels so unfamiliar and scary. We don't know what
to do with it.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yes, I agree, I have a hard time communicating my feelings.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, and maybe even knowing what you're feeling. So if
we can just take a minute to go back to
that maybe, And the maybe was in response to, is
it possible that saying that you're staying through all these
various iterations of infidelity And by the way, there were

(20:53):
more than two you said to a second infidelity in
your letter, but there are so many along the way
in terms of the lies and then not telling the
truth about certain things. You've stayed through many iterations of this,
and you say, I'm worried about this for my son,
And I said, is it possible that there are other
reasons that you're staying and that you're saying it's for

(21:16):
your son, just like your mom said it was for you,
but she ended up staying even after you were gone
from the house. And you said maybe, But then you're
faced all kinds of things. So what feelings do you
have when you think about the fact that maybe you're
not being so honest with yourself about the reasons that
you keep forgiving your husband? What do you feel in

(21:37):
your body right now when you think I'm not sure
I'm really telling myself the truth about why I'm staying
every single time it's uncomfortable where in your body?

Speaker 3 (21:51):
Like all over?

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Describe the discomfort?

Speaker 3 (21:55):
I can't. I don't know, it's just yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Does it feel at all like the discomfort you felt
when you were a little girl and you heard your
mom on the phone.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
A little bit? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, And you didn't have a name for it then,
So I can see why you might not be able
to really articulate it now either. You didn't know what
to call it right except tears are coming out of
your eyes right now, so that might mean it's maybe
what do you.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Think, sad? Yeah, disappointing.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's interesting, Amanda, because the way you talk about feelings
is a little bit in reverse. You were taught growing
up that the women's feelings didn't matter, your mom's feelings
didn't matter, yours didn't matter, your dad's mattered, the man's
feelings mattered. And when we asked you earlier about what's

(22:52):
been going on in your head since you wrote the
letter and since he's moved out temporarily, you said you're
trying to figure out if I can trust him. And
the thing about trust is that you can't figure out
if you can trust him. It's his to prove that
he's trustworthy. And so the feelings that he's supposed to

(23:14):
be dealing with you're taking on in some kind of way,
and your feelings get lost. You're supposed to be focusing
on how you feel. You named two feelings discomfort and sadness.
That probably another twenty that can be listed, right, you know,
betrayal and hurt and resentment and frustration and disappointment that

(23:37):
can go on. Yes, but you're much more focused on
understanding his feeling like your mom. You're focused on trying
to figure him out rather than trying to figure you out.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
Yes, do you notice that I do?

Speaker 2 (23:53):
And so when Laurie's asking you to try and pay
attention to what's going on in your body to try
and identify what you're feeling, it's a really important exercise
and it's a skill set that you have to work
on because you're not cluding enough to your body and
to your feelings because you were taught that they don't matter,

(24:13):
So you don't have to hone that kind of understanding
of them. But now you do now for this, you
really do. And so I want to ask you, over
these few weeks, what have some of the low moments
been for you?

Speaker 3 (24:29):
There have been moments of self doubt. I might not
good enough.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know that if you were good enough, he wouldn't
be cheating. Yes, so his cheating is a reflection on
your worth, not a reflection on him.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
I guess. Just the repeatedness of it just makes me
feel that no matter what I do, why why is
that not enough? And why does he continue to seek
whatever is he seeking with other women?

Speaker 1 (25:03):
But it never occurs to you to wonder whether he's
good enough to be in a relationship, given how disrespectful
he's been in this relationship recently.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yes, I have thought about that.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think? And I've told him this, I said, I
think he likes the idea of having a wife and
a child and a family, but I believe that there
is still a part of him that feels like there
is more out there.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
That's what you think, or that's what he's said to you,
That's what I think. Oh, so you haven't asked him
about this?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
I have. We have talked about this.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
It said in your letter that he said, at one point,
I have a lot going on mentally and he felt
that that was causing him to act out in this way.
What did he say was going on with him?

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Mainly work? I guess that's been the most that he's
mentioned as far as the stresses in his life. Is
just right now? Work?

Speaker 1 (26:14):
You say, right now? But that was two years ago?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Oh back then? Yeah, I don't know. We never really
explored that.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
I just have a question about how you thought about
your mom when your dad was cheating on her. You
say that you keep having this kind of rumination around
if you were good enough, he wouldn't have to look elsewhere.
That that's sort of the distorted thinking that you have,
and we're gonna call it distorted thinking. Did you think
that your mom wasn't good enough for your dad and

(26:42):
that's why he was cheating?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
No, I never thought about it that way.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
So where did you get this idea that you were
not good enough? In fact, as a child, it might
even be possibly that you felt the opposite, that my
mom's too good for this? Why does she put up
with this? Did you ever feel that I did?

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (27:04):
So why do you think you don't feel that way
about yourself. You saw that your mom was putting up
with something she deserved better. But I don't hear you
saying to yourself, I deserve better you he must deserve better.
Something must be wrong with me.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
I guess that's where the self dow comes in.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
How do you think your dad would feel if he
knew that your husband was doing what he did to you.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
I think he would probably go back to what happened
between him and my mom and feel like he couldn't
judge him because he did the same thing.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
You're his daughter. He wouldn't feel upset for you, angry
for you. He would be that calm about it. Well,
well I did it, so I guess that's what my
daughter gets. Yeah, he knows, he knows this is going on.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
My mom told him.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
And has he spoken to you about it?

Speaker 3 (28:06):
No?

Speaker 2 (28:06):
What do you make of that?

Speaker 3 (28:08):
That's how it is all the time. He doesn't talk
about his feelings. My parents don't talk about anything. We
never sit and talk about what happened or how we feel.
That's been like that since I was a child.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
And then you continue that legacy with yourself because you
don't ask yourself how you feel either, you said earlier,
I don't really know how I feel. I think you
don't really ask yourself how you feel much. You just
try and figure it out quote unquote. Or you look
to your husband to see what's happening there. That'll give

(28:43):
you an orientation about what to do or what to think.
But you don't look inward about what is this doing
to me? Do you ask yourself? Wait, how am I
feeling with this? What's this doing to me? What's going
on in my body? When I'm thinking about these issues?
Do you ask those questions?

Speaker 3 (29:03):
I do? I did? In the beginning, I was very angry.
That was kind of the biggest emotion was anger.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
But that's when you found out, Yes, I'm asking. In
the weeks since he's temporarily moved out, have you asked yourself?
How am I doing without him now? Now I'm not
living with him? What does that feel like? How different
does that feel? Am I more worried about what he's
up to? Less worried about what he's up to? Do
I feel a relief? Do I feel worse?

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yes? I have asked myself those questions, and I feel
a little bit of peace.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
You feel at peace? That's important?

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yes, and I'm not as worried about what he's doing.
I was two years ago the first time it happened,
But this time around, I'm not as worried, and I
feel a little better peace.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
So you're getting in touch with the fact that you
feel a little bit of relief in peace. How has
he responded to the anger, the hurt, the betrayal, all
of the feelings that you've talked about that came up
each time this happens. How does he react? Does he
comfort you? Is he curious about your feelings? What does

(30:21):
he do?

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yes, he does? He comforts me in what way? He
apologizes for what he did and asks what can I
do to make this better? What do you need from me?

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Oh? Great, what do you say?

Speaker 3 (30:38):
I say, you need to give me time. This was
when first happened. I said, I don't want to be
around you, so I feel I'm very angry and if
we're around each other, we're going to fight because I'm
still angry. So I told him I need space, and
he gave me that space. He didn't contact me, he
didn't text, call, nothing.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
One of the things you might need from him is
to understand why that happened. What was going on. Have
you asked him that, Have you told him that's one
thing you need?

Speaker 3 (31:11):
I have. The reason why I told him to leave
the house was that I was angry and I didn't
want to fight with him in front of our son
because I knew that that was going to happen. And
second partly, I told him, I need you to take
this time to figure out and dig deep why you
do this, Why you do this repeatedly? What is happening

(31:32):
that you feel that you need validation from other women?
And he'll apologize for what he did, but then it
always comes back to, well, what this is how I
was feeling. So I think this is why I did this, and.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
That part of it is understanding. We always say insight
is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have
all the insight in the world, but if you don't
actually make changes, the insight is useless. So we're hearing
he might have some explanations, but I don't see the
changes the action. Him not saying he's going to change
his behavior, but changing his behavior. And I'm thinking particularly

(32:17):
about when he decided to go to couple's therapy with you,
and he went to two sessions and then decided somehow
magically that the two of you would be able to
get through this crisis in your relationship. What was that

(32:37):
like for you? It sounds like he said that and
you just said okay. Were you upset about it? What
did you communicate to him at that time?

Speaker 3 (32:46):
I was upset and I told him I think you're
making excuses as to why you don't want to go.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Why did you accept that from him?

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Because I didn't want to argue anymore and he would
just skid great time I brought it up, or just upset.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
It sounds like there's this idea that you're there to
caretake his feelings, that you need to take to smiling
you guys, that you need to take care of his
feelings and then yours become almost irrelevant. You're so good
at pushing your feelings down and really magnifying and amplifying

(33:26):
other people's needs and feelings. We saw that everybody in
the family took care of your dad's feelings. But I
wonder if at some point you thought I want something
different than what my mom had. Did you ever think
about that, like, maybe I don't want to be my
partner's caretaker, but maybe I want to have more reciprocity
in my relationship, and I don't want to just back

(33:49):
down because he might get angry even though I'm asking
for something reasonable.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yes, and that didn't happen up until recently.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
What happened recently because it sounds like nobody's made an appointment.
He was going to take on the responsibility of finding
a couple's therapists and getting you guys there. But it
sounds like now he's asking you to participate in that
and neither of you has. So what do you think
is going on there? With the delay?

Speaker 3 (34:21):
I don't think he's ready.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
What about you?

Speaker 3 (34:25):
I'm ready? I told him I'm ready. I have a
therapist that I'm going to see. And I was smiling
earlier about what you were talking about me caretaking about
his feelings because my therapist who I went to two
years ago, who also saw as a couple of therapy,
when she saw me by myself, she said that about
me as.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Well, And did that have an impact on you? When
she said that it did.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
I didn't realize it until she said that, and it
really opened my eyes and made me reflect on the
years that we had been together, how my actions reflect
what his possible reactions.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
Would be right.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
So, if you were doing that beautiful job that you
do caretaking for other people, but you were doing it
for yourself, if you were your own caretaker, what would
you do to take care of yourself right now, to
take care of your feelings in particular?

Speaker 3 (35:28):
That's really hard for me to think about.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
You teared up again. Something touched you by having that
question asked. I don't think a lot of people ask
you that question.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
No, So think about it now.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
What do you think your tears are trying to say.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
That I should take care of my needs and that
my needs and my feeling should come first.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Tell us how if you were caretaking for yourself and
you say, oh, wow, Amanda's really hurting right now. She
really needs help right now. She's all alone in this.
People know about it, but everyone's pretending it's not really happening.
Her husband is making noises about doing things to change,

(36:15):
but doesn't seem to take action, and she's feeling demoralized, betrayed, abandoned, scared,
unsure her self worth is suffering. You, as the good
caretaker that you are, how would you care for Amanda
who's suffering?

Speaker 3 (36:36):
I would tell her to leave the situation. I would
tell her to leave and take care of herself and
go to therapy every week and talk about your feelings
and he and heal.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, tell us what that would look like for her
if she left. Tell her, as the caretaker, what you
think her life might look like.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
I know you're an only child. Imagine you had a sister,
and the sister is Amanda, and the sisters in this situation.
And answer Laurie's question, But you're talking to your sister
called Amanda, who's in this situation, and you care for
her very much, what would you say to her?

Speaker 3 (37:18):
To your sister, I would tell her that she deserves better,
and that she deserves to be treated with respect, and
she needs to be with somebody who truly loves her
and not just say that they love you, but their
actions need to match their words as well, and that

(37:42):
I would tell her that she can do this on
her own and that she doesn't need anybody else to
make her feel like she's worthy.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Can you also tell her what you love about her
and what makes her so lovable? Your sister, Amanda, who's you?
But you're bring the caretaker here for your sister? Tell
her what you love about her and what makes her
so lovable.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
I love that you're very empathetic with other people and
that you love to take care of everybody else. But
at the same time, maybe it's time that you take
care of yourself going forward. I love that you're a
great mom. I love that you're a good friend.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Is she fun to be around?

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yes? I love that you're funny and you get along
well with everyone. Really that you come in contact with.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Amanda has a real shine that's being dimmed at the moment,
and her sister sees the shine and sees who Amanda
really is and wants that Amanda to come back. I
think you I have all the right instincts. When we

(39:02):
ask you really what's best for you, you're very clear
about I should leave, Amanda should leave. The sister should leave.
She cannot be with someone she can't trust, somebody who
doesn't respect her, someone who makes promises but doesn't live
up to any of them. You're very, very clear about that.
When three weeks ago, whenever it was, when you asked

(39:23):
him to move out, you had all the intentionality. I
think what happens thereafter is that you get really scared,
and I think you get really scared that if your
husband would say to you, well, you're the one then
that's breaking up the family. You're the one that's doing
the damage. You're the one that's giving up and not

(39:43):
willing to fight for us. That you would feel really
guilty because your mom stayed for you and turns out
for her because she stayed after you left. But I
think that your sister, if she existed, wouldn't need to.
I help support you in following through with your own
decisions because you do something similar that your husband does.

(40:07):
You make yourself promises and you don't follow through, And
I suspect you've promised yourself a bunch of things already
that you haven't followed through on. Is that true?

Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Like what that?

Speaker 3 (40:21):
I was going to give myself a lot of space
and time to be away from my husband. But scary
to think about being alone?

Speaker 1 (40:32):
What's scary about that?

Speaker 3 (40:34):
I was alone my whole life.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Basically, there's a difference between being alone in your experience
and having some space for yourself and for you. It
sounds like there was such loneliness when being alone as
a child. So you can be alone and not lonely.
But it sounds like you were alone and very lonely,

(40:58):
living in this house with this big open secret that
nobody acknowledged. Yes, and nobody to help you process that experience. Yes,
And it sounds like the same thing now, is that
even though you're with your husband, it sounds like you're
just as lonely. And you said, now that you've had

(41:19):
a little space, you're feeling some relief and it might
feel scary and you might go back to that little
girl place of being lonely, but you're not any less
lonely than you were when you were with him.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Right.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
The emotional disconnection of being with someone when you feel
so disconnected to them emotionally can be exquisitely painful, and
far more painful than being alone, because you're with someone
who's supposed to be connected or supposed to see you,
care for you, validate you, appreciate you, and you're with

(41:56):
someone who doesn't do those things in words sometimes and
spit not in actions, and that can feel worse by far.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
I think the biggest betrayal going on here is the
betrayal of yourself. He's betrayed you in all these different ways,
but you've betrayed yourself in believing whatever thoughts you have
about yourself that we've seen or not true, and then

(42:27):
telling yourself that you're going to take care of yourself,
but then you abandon yourself every time. Yeah, yeah, And
that abandonment over time has left you in this place
where you're just kind of numb.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
Yeah, very much. That was the first man month, No,
two weeks. I think I was very numb.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
And so we want you to talk to your sister
one last time about the betrayal and how much it
breaks your heart to see her betray herself over and
over and over. What is that like for you when
you love her so much and talk to her about that.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
I think it hurts me to see you keep saying
that you're going to take care of yourself and heal,
but at the same time still think about your husband's
feelings and kind of put that first before yours. It

(43:35):
makes me sad for you that you're letting that happen,
that you're not seeing your worth, and that you continue
to go back on your words. And it's not disappointing,
but at the same time it's it is, and I

(43:58):
mean in the nicest way, disappointed that you keep going
back on your word when You've made that very clear
last time it happened, that it happens again. That was it,
and you were leaving.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Ask her what she needs to stop betraying herself.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
What do you need to stop betraying yourself?

Speaker 1 (44:23):
And what do you think her answer would be?

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Strength? A little bit more strength.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
What about support?

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yes, strength and support and validation of her feelings.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
First by her first and then by others. We know
your mom knows, dad knows, but it's not talking about it.
You don't have a sister, who else knows? Who else
is there to support you?

Speaker 3 (44:51):
I have girlfriends, but there's one in particular that I
opened up to because she's gone through not this before,
but similar she's divorced, and so she's gone through it,
and I opened up to her first about it.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Did she give you any guidance about how she did
it and how it's been for her since she left.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yes, And I've watched her through the whole process, so
I know exactly what she went through.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
What was the hardest part about leaving for her?

Speaker 3 (45:24):
I think she kept hoping that he was going to change.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Do you think, Amanda, you've been honest enough with yourself
about how much pain you'reine.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
I don't think completely. No, I think a little bit,
but I don't think I've ever sat in it and
made myself really feel what I'm feeling.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm thinking about the way things get passed down through
generations and how your mom tried to protect you, but
you were in so much pain because no one was
talking about it. And now your son does he know
what's going on or just that the two of you
are splitting, but doesn't really know why.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
So he knew because he saw messages.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
He knew, but you hadn't told him, just like you
heard your mom on the phone, but she hadn't told you.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Mm hmmm correct.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
And so did you know that he knew or did
you learn that later when your husband moved out.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
No, it was before he opened up to me. He
came to me. He saw that I was upset and
I just needed to get out of the house, and
he said, let's go outside, you know, let's go for
a walk. We went for a walk, and he knew
that I was sad because I was crying, and he
knew something was going on. I'm very close with my son,

(46:51):
and so he can feel like when something's off with me,
and so I just told him I couldn't stay in
that house, and he said, let's go out side for
a walk, because he knew kind of what happened two
years ago, but didn't really know. And so he said,
was it like what happened two years ago?

Speaker 1 (47:11):
And you didn't know that he knew about two years ago.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
I did know because he's heard me same as my
happit with my mom. Honestly, what exactly does he know?
He knows that there was another woman, okay, And.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Has he talked to you or your husband about how
he feels about that.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
The only thing he said to me that day when
we were walking was that he thinks I deserve better.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Have you ausked him how he feels about this, even
the fact that his dad moved out.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Temporarily in the beginning I did. He said he was upset,
and he said that I can't believe that this is happening.
And he was more worried about, you know, what was
it going to be like with my in laws? Is
he going to see his cousins? And I said, yeah,

(48:03):
that's not going to change your dad's leaving, but not
things got to change about your relationship with me or
your relationship with your dad. If any dynamic changes, it's
going to be between me and your dad.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Has he spoken to his father about it? Have they
had any conversation about this?

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yes, he wasn't going to and he was very mad
at his dad and didn't want to talk to him,
and I encouraged him that he should talk to his dad.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
It sounds like it was your son's responsibility to be
the adult there and talk to his father instead of
his father coming to him and saying, hey, buddy, how's
it going. I know this is a lot what's going on?

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, exactly. And I told my husband, I said, I
know you can feel that your son is upset with you,
but you need to be the one.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
What did he say to that when you asked him
to do that?

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Is that No, he said that he was going to
wait until my son was ready to talk to him.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
So it was on your son to be ready to
go and talk to him.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
And so that's the pattern that has gone on the
whole time, that you ask for things that are reasonable
and he says no or agrees to them, but then
doesn't follow through and you end up in the same place.
It's the cycle all over again. Yes, So if you

(49:30):
do nothing and you stay in this place and you
repeat the pattern. We don't see any indication that he's
going to change, So let's just assume that things are
as they are. What's your plan.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
If things stay the way they are. I don't see
myself moving forward with this marriage. If nothing changes, I
don't want to move forward.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Do you see any indication that things are going to
be any.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Different at this moment now?

Speaker 1 (49:58):
And what about for your What do you think would
be a better situation for him? In other words, do
you think that it's better for your son to grow
up the way you grew up in a house like that,
or do you think it might be better for your
son looking at models of what relationships look like, whose

(50:19):
feelings matter, how people deserve to be treated, what trust
looks like, what honesty looks like. Do you want him
growing up the way you did and potentially getting into
a relationship with those ideas?

Speaker 3 (50:36):
No, I don't.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
They're not any signs we see or you see from
your husband that he's about to change, or that he's
trying to change their promises, But they're no actions. But
there are a lot of signs to indicate that he's
not changing. When someone promises to change and fails and

(50:58):
promises to deliver something and fails and promises to be different,
promises to find a therapist, et cetera, and they fail
over and over, they're not signs that they're changing, but
they're very clear signs that they are not.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yes, I agree.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Do you see how many signs there are in that regard?

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (51:21):
I guess. My question is what is your line in
the sand. For instance, if nothing changes, how many more
times are you willing to endure the kind of pain
that you go through every time this happens. Is that
zero more times, one more time, five more times?

Speaker 3 (51:42):
It's zero more times. I can't do it. This was
the worst by far, okay, that I felt in my life.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
So we had two hundred and fifty pieces of advice
for you.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
That's how many therapists are sitting in the room.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
That's awesome. I'll take it all.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Here's the first part. We'd like you to write a
letter to your husband in which you explained to him
what you would have needed to see from him after
that first betrayal. When he first came to you two
years ago and said, hey, to let you know this
was going on, what you would have needed from him

(52:27):
in order to feel that he was extremely serious about
wanting to repair the marriage and about wanting to change
his ways, and about wanting to really heal and to
help heal you and the hurt he caused you. So,
for example, you want to say to him, I would

(52:47):
have needed you to say, here's full transparency. Here's the
password to my phone, to my email. You get to
look at it whenever you want. You get to ask
whatever you want, true where I am, You get to
reach out. I will be available. You can say to him,
I would have needed you to ask me every day,

(53:09):
how are you feeling? And if I was angry that day,
you would have needed to listen and contain it and
absorb it, because the hurt doesn't go away within a day.
So you really want to lay out for him, this
is what I would have needed, because what you're really
saying in that is this is what I deserved from

(53:29):
you and what I didn't get. I deserved all of this,
you coming to me, you finding the couple's therapist, you
setting up the appointment, You taking the lead in healing
us rather than me having to hound you.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
And we want you to be very specific because sometimes
it's hard for you to figure out what you need.
We want you to make a list of ten things
at least minimum, and that might include many of the
things Guy just talked about. We're talking about two years ago,
what you would have needed after the first one. This
is what I would have needed to be able to

(54:06):
trust you again. This is what I would have needed
to heal the pain and the hurt that I've gone through.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
It goes without saying that that's still what you need.
But that letter you're going to write and email to
him this week. That's the first task.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
How does that sound to you?

Speaker 3 (54:25):
Refreshing?

Speaker 1 (54:26):
And the second thing is we would like you to
check in with the sister that we have made up
and imagined, because I think it's easier for you to
be a caretaker to someone else. Eventually you'll be able
to care for yourself. But if you think about this sister,

(54:47):
we want you to kind of write her in your mind.
It could be in front of the mirror, it could
be an email. Dear sister, I want to let you
know what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling. Have that conversation,
just like you did with us today, And we want
you to find a time every day. It takes no
more than five minutes. Maybe it's when you wake up

(55:08):
in the morning, maybe it's before you go to bed.
But we want to make sure that you don't abandon
yourself by not doing it. So think of a time
that's going to be my time to talk about feelings
with my sister. And we think that this will help
you to access your feelings more in a way that
you can't do when you feel like other people's feelings
are more important than yours.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Because we think that if you had a sister that
was going through this, you would be amazing with her. Yeah,
and we want you to be amazing with you. Yes,
but wait, there's more. So here's another time.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
I don't doubt it.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yes, you have this one friend who knows everything, who's
been through a divorce, and she's a great resource and
support terrific. We'd like you to bring one other friend.
And it's important for a accountability for yourself. And I
think it's important for one other person who maybe hasn't
been through it to understand what you're going through so

(56:06):
that you can have more support than just this one friend.
And we want to ask you if you have someone
in mind. Do you think would be good who would
be understanding and compassionate, not judge you, but really help
you with where you are now. If you are really
telling them everything, anyone come to mind that would seem

(56:27):
right for that I do if you tell her everything,
how would that feel with this friend that you just
thought of?

Speaker 4 (56:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
I think it would feel a little freeing. And I
think she would be great because she knows a little
bit already about it, not fully, and she's followed up
with me excellent, that's great.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
And the reason that we want you to do that
is we're not surprised that maybe you've told her a
little bit but not the whole thing, because you do
that with yourself. You kind of say, oh, it's only
been twice, but actually there's been so many different lies
and betrayals, and if you really tell someone else, they
help you to make it real because sometimes you talk
yourself out of your own reality. Because I think your

(57:11):
husband talks you out of your own reality.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Yes, it's pretty spot on.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
So when you get talked out of your reality repeatedly,
like you're overstating this or it didn't really happen, or
I didn't really lie like that, then you start questioning yourself, Wait,
what's real? What's not real? Can I trust my own instincts?
So being able to tell the whole narrative without leaving
any of the betrayals out, then somebody else knows about them,

(57:36):
so that it helps you to not talk yourself out
of reality. And that relates to the next task that
we have for you. This one is similar, but it's
something that you do with yourself. We want you to
make a list of all of the betrayals and it's
going to be in two columns. So the first column
is every lie that your husband has told you, and

(57:59):
the second column is every lie that you suspect but
you don't know. So there's the confirmed ones and then
there's the suspected ones, and we want you to look
at that every time you get afraid about leaving, because
you sound really clear that you don't want to go
through this again, and you also seem really clear that
he's probably going to do this again no matter what

(58:21):
he says, because you've been through it so many times
and it's been several weeks and there's still no couples
therapy going on, and you said you would tolerate this
zero more times. So sometimes when you start to feel
like maybe you'll change this time, we want you to
have that list to look at of Wait a minute,
here is everything that has happened. Here are all of
the lies. And if you can see them on one

(58:42):
page right in front of you and don't leave anything out,
it could be lies about anything. Oh yes, I'll go
to therapy. No I won't go to therapy. No I
didn't do this on Instagram. Oh actually I did. No
I didn't sleep with her, Yes I did. Even lies
from before, like oh, yes, we'll get married. No, I
don't want to get married. You're not. So we want
you to go way back to all the lies and

(59:03):
make a comprehensive list lies that are confirmed, lies that
you suspect. Your eyes just went really wide, so you
must think there's a lot of them. You're laughing. Yeah,
So we want you to have that whenever you get afraid,
like oh wow, maybe it's not that bad. We want
you to really see the reality of your situation so
you don't talk yourself out of it.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
And the next task is related to this fear. Have
you spoken to a divorce lawyer?

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Not yet?

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Okay, would like you to find one. We'd like you to,
if possible, meet and get an idea of what your
rights are. A decision to divorce is one that's many things,
but it's also financial, and you need to know where
you stand, what you can expect, and you need that
legal advice. We know there's a lot of fear about leaving,

(59:51):
and we know that part of the fear for all
people who are considering this is the uncertainty. But if
you break it down, start to have a clear plan,
if you start to be able to visualize, Okay, well
this would happen, then this would happen. It becomes less
scary the more articulated and clear it is. And it
has to start with a legal counsel and a lawyer

(01:00:13):
telling you, here's what you can expect financially, here's what
the process would be, Here's what you should and shouldn't do.
Get the initial lay of the land, so you have
that so when the point that you do decide you
can move forward. The last one is at the point
that you're ready. So that might not be something you

(01:00:34):
do this week, but we just want to suggest it
that at the point that you're ready, if you do
decide to move forward and to separate fully. Every day
you ask your son how he's doing, how he's feeling,
whether he wants to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yeah, and he might say I'm really worried about you
because he's become a little bit of a caretaker too.
It sounds like that's what he did when he found out,
so you had a very parallel situation. He had known
about it, he found out, he came to you, mom,
I want to take care of you. Let's go for
a walk. So we want to make sure that he's
talking about his feelings. Yes, Mom, I'm worried about you.

(01:01:15):
You can say I'm doing fine. I'm taking care of myself,
going to therapy, i have a place to go, I
have friends, I have everything I need. But how about you?
The important thing is that he knows he can talk
to you if he's feeling sad or scared, and he's
not going to have to take care of your feelings.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Yes, I agreed.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
We really want you to take care of yourself, and
we're giving you the steps to take care of yourself.
How does it feel to even think about doing that?

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
I feel like it's out of my league. I'm not
used to taking care of myself. But it sounds kind
of exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
And whenever you feel like I don't know if I'm
worthy of being taken care of, or I don't know
if I'm worthy of my husband, why does he need
to go to these other women? Something must be wrong
with me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Bring out your sister, dear.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Sister, time to chat.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Yes, yeah, all right, Amanda. We wanted to thank you
very much for doing this. You agree to do it
in front of a live audience. We're so appreciative of that,
and we really feel that you actually do know what's
best for you. You're a good caretaker and if you just

(01:02:26):
shine that internally and pointed at you, you'll be in
a much better place.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Thank you, Yes, and I would just like to have
everybody give a round of applause for Amanda. Thank you
all right, Thank you so much, and we really look
forward to hearing how it goes this week.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
We really do. Thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:02:54):
Thank you so much, Lauren Guy for taking the risk
of doing this. Someone in this room actually texted be
during this this is being great. It's so stressful, but
this is badass.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Well if you think it was stressful for you, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:03:09):
People's hearts were pounding out there. So you so brave,
so courageous for what you do making therapy so visible
in the world. Thank you so very.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Much you listening to deo therapists. We'll be back after
our short break.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
So Guy, it's a week later. We're back in the studio.
We're not live anymore, and we heard back from Amanda.
Let's hear how the week went for her.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Hello, Lauren, Guy.

Speaker 6 (01:03:51):
I wanted to give you an update from our conversation
and the homework you both, along with two hundred and
fifty therapists, gave me. I did all but one. That
one is in progress. Let's start with the ones completed.
Right after our conversation, I reached out to one of
my good friends and asked her to have lunch with me. There,

(01:04:11):
I was able to fully open up and tell her
everything that happened. She was very empathetic and validated a
lot of my feelings. It felt good to talk to
someone who's never gone through this before and get her input.
In the end, she said she wants to support me
in whatever I do and to see me happy. That

(01:04:31):
was the main thing for her my happiness. I felt
really good to have that support. I can't say that
talking about everything that happened didn't bring up the anger
and sadness I felt at first, which leads me to
my next homework. I was able to write my husband
the letter about what I needed from the first betrayal
to help me heal and show me he was willing

(01:04:52):
to put in the efforts to repair our marriage. I
would be lying if I said that letter was not
emotional to write. I was very emotional. I cried, I reflected,
and I got sad. I was sad because guy, you
were right, these are still things I need now, and
I'm not sure that I will get them. I can
only hope that he reads a letter, absorb it, and

(01:05:14):
learn from it. After I wrote that, I went straight
into the list of wise I was already very eposial
at that point, so I thought, why not Right looking
at the list, I thought to myself, it's amazing what
one person can put up with, And I asked myself, how.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Much more would I be willing to go through to
realize that I deserve honesty and fidelity. Laurie, you would
be very proud that I talked to my sister daily.
I talked to her in the car after listening to
a song that made me sad. I talked to her
at bedtime to analyze my feelings for that day, especially
if I had an interaction negative or otherwise with my husband.

(01:05:53):
I decided to journal.

Speaker 6 (01:05:55):
My therapist actually suggested that it'd be good to write
down my feelings, so I decided I was going to
write to my sister in my journal. I have laughed
and cried with my sister, and I am hopeful that
she is going to stick around for a while. The
last and final homework was to talk to a lawyer
for information to help with the fear of uncertainty. I

(01:06:17):
have reached out and had to fill out a questionnaire
before they called, and I was able to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
I'm just waiting for the phone call. In the meantime,
they did send me information regarding what to look forward
to if that was to be my decision, and that
list was a little scary, but overall hopeful. I want
to thank you both for this time and for this experience.
I have learned so much about myself, and I'm thankful
for all your advice and kind words. Hopeful that I

(01:06:43):
will continue to heal and focus on the things that
I like to do for myself. As my therapist says,
that is our goal.

Speaker 6 (01:06:50):
It's really time to take care of myself and I
look forward to giving you both an update in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
Thank you again.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
So we gave Amanda a lot of tasks and all
of them had the same purpose, which is to break
through the denial and to have accountability there. I'm really
glad she spoke to her friend. Her friend hadn't been
through this situation, and the friend was empathetic and she
validated her feelings and she wants to follow up. So
I think that is great because I do think that

(01:07:21):
that will help Amanda be accountable.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
Yeah, I agree. And she said that talking to her
friend brought up some anger and sadness, which is actually
a good thing because Amanda has not been in touch
enough with her anger and sadness. So I think when
you're talking to somebody else, you see yourself reflected back
in a way that when she's all alone and she's

(01:07:45):
holding this by herself, she's not able to get in
touch with those feelings that are so important in order
for her to really get what she wants and needs.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
And these are the appropriate feelings to have when you're
talking about what happened. And I'm always glad when I
hear someone say I spoke about things which are very
upsetting and very angering, that they actually got upset and angry.
That's appropriate. That's what you should feel. If you don't
feel that at this stage when you're talking about it,
then that is the denial. So it was very good
to hear that she pierced through it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
I also like that she did write that letter to
her husband, and it sounds like she was very detailed
in getting in touch with what she would have needed
then and as she said, what she still needs now,
and she said she got very emotional, she got sad.
That's good breaking through the denial. The one thing she
did say is that she did give it to her

(01:08:35):
husband and she hopes he learns from it. And again
that's where I think her denial comes back. I don't
have a lot of hope that he's going to learn
from this. He might be on his best behavior for
a little while in order to get her back, but
he really needs to do everything that she says in
that letter, and not once, but consistently every day if

(01:08:58):
he is really going to make true change. I just
want her to hold on to the fact that it's
not about what he does or doesn't do, because he
either is going to do this consistently or he isn't.
But it's the fact that she is now clear about
what her line in the sand is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
And the complimentary part of the letter was the list
of lies, because the letter is what she needs, and
the list of lies was and this is what you've
been getting so far. And she said that when she
looked at that, her feeling was, Wow, it's amazing what
one person will tolerate, and also like, how much more
am I willing to tolerate? That's exactly what we wanted

(01:09:35):
her to get out of that, that she would look
at this list and go, my goodness, it's all of this.
And really, I hope that how much more was a
rhetorical question because really how much more?

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Yes, it sounded rhetorical, how much more can I take?
Meaning she's really getting clear that there isn't much more
that she can take. If anything, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Also glad she really took to talking to this imaginary
sister that we as signed her during this session, because
it is so valuable to imagine someone who's very close
and who's there by your side, because ideally that's the
person that will get you most and that has your
back the most. She didn't have that, so she had

(01:10:15):
to invent it and imagine it, and she really incorporated
it into her life, not just talking to her sister,
but even in her journal, journaling to the sister. I
think it's such a great use of that device because
that's the device through which I hope she'll learns self compassion.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
We talked in the session about how she replicated her
childhood situation in her present situation. She was all alone,
and it sounds like she really connected with that idea
of having that person, having someone there or she can
be completely open and vulnerable and honest and feel supported,

(01:10:52):
and going back to the accountability and the denial, have
that other person there to say, hey, you deserve better,
this is not okay.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
And all of that is true with the lawyer as well.
The lawyer is for all those things as well, for
the accountability. To get a realistic read, it sounds like
she did all those steps. She's waiting to hear from them.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
I was very impressed that she called the lawyer and
filled out the forms just in that week since we
had the session. She said it was scary but hopeful,
and I was so glad to hear that it felt
hopeful to her, because we know what her fears are,
and I think just getting the information makes her see
that this is really possible, This is not as scary
as I thought it would be. And I'm glad that

(01:11:34):
she feels some degree of hope for a better future
in having contacted the lawyer.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
And that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying
to get you, Amanda, to pay more attention to yourself,
to your feelings, to your needs. And I think you've
done such a great, great job, and I'm so glad
that your therapist is on board. So now it's not
two hundred and fifty therapists plus Laurie and I, it's
two hundred and fifty one. You have an army behind you, Amanda.

(01:12:00):
So I really hope that helps you move forward and
find happiness.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Next week, a woman whose whirlwind romance led to an
unexpected pregnancy and subsequent abortion wonders how to let go
of her resentment of her partner.

Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
The depression was actually a defining factor and why he
wanted me to get another abortion.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
He felt like I was not emotionally capable of taking
care of a child.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
That was the exact thing he said to me, and
that really stuck with me. Maybe he's right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help
support to your therapists by telling your friends about it
and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
help people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email Us at Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive
producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,
additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Kate Matty. Our
intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

(01:13:04):
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see
you at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production
of iHeartRadio

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):
Fish Food