Encore: S04 Ep 02 - Nora’s Unexpected Pregnancy

This week, we’re in session with Nora, whose whirlwind romance with her now-husband led to an unexpected pregnancy that was terminated when they were first dating, the fallout of which she is still dealing with. We help Nora to process her feelings of past resentment so that she can see her husband and their relationship more clearly in the present

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice
column for the Atlantic.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Deo Therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Each week we invite you into a real session where
we help people confront the problems in their lives and
then give them actionable advice and have them report back
to let us know what happened when they did what
we suggested.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week, a woman whose whirlwind romance led to an
unexpected pregnancy and subsequent abortion wonders how to let go
of her resentment of her partner.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
The depression was actually a defining factor in why he
wanted me to get another abortion. He felt like I
was not emotionally capable of taking care of a child.
That was the exact thing he said to me, and
that really stuck with me. Maybe he's right.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
First a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only.
It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it
is not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to
let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and
we may edit it for length and clarity. In the
sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the
privacy of our guests. Hi Laurie, Hi guy, What do

(01:23):
we have in our mailbox today?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
So today we have a letter from someone who is
writing in about an issue in her marriage that's been
going on for a few years. And it goes like this,
Dear therapists, My husband and I have been married for
four months, deciding to marry shortly after finding out we
were expecting our second child. When we first met three
years ago, it was wonderful. We use the term soulmates

(01:47):
in exchange. I love use on date three. The first
eight months or so were some of the best months
of my life, but it's gone downhill from there. Twelve
months in we got pregnant and I had an abortion.
It was incredibly difficult for me emotionally and caused a
lot of problems in our relationship. Having struggled with depression
and anxiety for the majority of my life, I quickly

(02:07):
slipped into a deep depression, which my partner did not
know how to deal with. I was not on birth
control at the time, and I was very clear after
the abortion that if I were to get pregnant again,
I was going to have the baby. Fast forward three
months after the abortion, still deepen my depression, and I
find out I am pregnant again. Despite our previous conversations

(02:28):
and his knowing how difficult the abortion was, he still
wanted me to have an abortion. I refused, and here
we are two years later, married with a two year
old son and a daughter on the way. He has
turned into an incredibly loyal and supportive husband, an involved father,
and a great provider for our family, but emotionally we
have never recovered. We were in couples counseling for a

(02:51):
year and recently started up again, but I'm worried by
how little progress we seem to have made, and wonder
how much of that is my own fault, since I'm
the one who continue feels like there's something missing in
our relationship, in addition to the eerily similar relationship qualities
that exist between my parents' marriage and my own. I
need help understanding which parts of our lack of emotional

(03:12):
connection are due to my own emotional blocks and what
steps I can take to work towards a loving, fulfilled relationship.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Nora Noura is in a really difficult spot, and it
sounds like she's been struggling for a while, and I'm
not entirely sure what the struggle is about. I'm not
sure if she's still depressed and whether she's getting treatment
for that. And I'm also not sure why they didn't

(03:40):
use birth control and he still wanted her to have
an abortion, So that's a little confusing to me.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I don't know where that miscommunication happened between them
where she said, if I get pregnant again, I'm not
going to have an abortion, and then she did get
pregnant again, they weren't using birth control, and yet he
asked her to have abortioning and then I don't know
where he is with the fact that she didn't have
the abortion. They ended up having the child and getting married.

(04:07):
It seems like he's really moved into a place of
embracing his role as a father and as a husband.
But it's hard to know what the block is and
whether it's coming from both sides emotionally, or whether there
is something with her family history and her history of
anxiety and depression. So let's go talk to Nora and
find out what's going on. You're listening to Dear Therapists

(04:30):
for My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists. Hi Nora,
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Hi Nora, Hi, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
You are very welcome. So we read YOLETA, things were
going really well with your then boyfriend now husband, it
sounds like, and then you got pregnant, and then you
had this conversation about what to do. Tell us about
that conversation.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
So it started before we even got pregnant. I went
off birth control a few years ago, and the conversation
we had had was if something happened, we would have
an abortion. Like I was comfortable with that decision, and
then you know that actually happens and it's an entirely
different thing, so it was a lot harder. In that moment,
I felt like I had given him my word that
if something happened, we would not have a child that

(05:31):
we weren't expecting. But in that moment, it was a
lot harder for me than I realized. Like his exact
response was at the time, which was very heartless response,
which he acknowledges, And his exact response was, let's get
that shit vacuumed out, like it was like nothing, just
an easy, easy decision.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
You're saying that you went off birth control, and in
doing so, you decided if something happened, you would get
an abortion. So there's actually a very decent likelihood that
something will happen, not on verse controls. So how thought
out was that on your end?

Speaker 3 (06:04):
I honestly never expected it to happen. My ex that
I was with before him, he had a vasectomy so
we didn't have to worry about it. And I have
a long history of struggling with mental health issues, and
birth control made it significantly worse for me. Once I
went off it first time and I realized how much
it had impacted me, I was like, I can't go
back to this.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
If you both didn't want to have children, why wouldn't
he use a condom?

Speaker 3 (06:28):
He did, And I think that as time went on,
it became like, oops, we forgot here, Oops we forgot there,
And then we both honestly kind of felt like we
couldn't get pregnant. It was just us not being responsible
about it. That's where a lot of my hesitations came forward.
When I did actually get pregnant, was like, well, like
we caused this, We are capable of raising this child,

(06:51):
We are capable of, you know, giving it a loving home.
And here we are saying, like, just because we said
we weren't going to have it, that.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
We aren't going to How old were you both at
that time.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I was twenty eight and he was twenty nine.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Was the decision we're not going to have kids yet,
or was the decision we're not going to have kids?

Speaker 3 (07:11):
It was a little of both. So actually, when we
first met, we had no intention of ever having kids,
Like both of us had decided on our own separately
that we did not want kids. When we met, it
was like a whirlwind of events. On our third day,
we exchanged I love yous like I didn't believe in
soulmates before any of that, But it was just emotions
we'd never felt before. And you know, throughout the next

(07:34):
year we kind of slowly started planning these events that
we thought we never wanted kids, and all of a
sudden we're like, oh, you know, I could see us
having kids in five ten years.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
And so did both of you think it's unlikely that
you would get pregnant even though you weren't using birth control?
And why did you think it was unlikely?

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah? I think both of us had been probably him especially,
had been careless in the past with birth control and
had never had anything happen, and so I think he
was very much under the assumption that there was something
wrong and that he couldn't get someone pregnant.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
So then you get pregnant unexpectedly, and you guys had
had a conversation that if that happened, you would not
have the baby. But you then in the moment, because
it's one thing to imagine something in another to be
in a situation, you felt differently. And what were those

(08:30):
conversations like between the two of you. Was he able
to hear what was going on with you? Were you
able to hear what was going on with him? What
was that like at the time.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
At the time, I think that we very much struggled
with our communication skills. We'd never been in that type
of situation where we really had to talk about anything serious.
It was fun and easy so I really don't think
we had the skills to like fully have a conversation
about that. I definitely communicated my hesitations and he definitely
like communicated his need to move forward with the original plan,

(09:05):
and that was really it. So at that time we
really didn't have the conversations we needed to.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Did you explain to him why it was important for
you to have the baby and did you understand why
it was important for him not to?

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, I definitely did. Me understanding why it was important
for him not to was probably the biggest factor in it.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
What were his reasons?

Speaker 3 (09:27):
I think a big part of it is, you know,
the freedom you lose when you have a child, especially
for him being the man, and you know, this expectation
to provide was definitely very large for him, and so
I think that was a big part of it. Is
he realized he'd have to give up so much and
he wasn't ready for that. And he also had a
very difficult childhood with his parents. His mom died when
he was thirteen. His stepdad at the time, like wanted

(09:50):
nothing to do with him, sent him away to a
military camp right after he had just lost his mom,
So he had no real role models to know how
how to take care of a child, how to be
a father.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
He had no idea, And how did you explain the
change for you? You went from I don't have kids, Yeah,
I were on the same page, to no, I'm being
hesitant at an abortion.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
I started noticing other people with kids, and then all
of a sudden, I was kind of like, I didn't
think I wanted this, but I think I want that.
That was like, is that going to subside once I'm
no longer pregnant And you really can't know until you're
in that situation.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
And then you decide to get an abortion. Yes? And
was he with you?

Speaker 3 (10:32):
He was there, He drove me, he paid for it.
He was supportive as much as he could. I was
definitely shut down about the process following the abortion, actually
on honestly a week before because I had really bad
morning sickness, so probably a month total, like barely got
out of bed other than to just get food. I
literally just worked from bed. I didn't take care of myself.

(10:55):
I didn't talk to anyone, Like I had friends texting
me like asking me what was going on. And I
was at the time, like terrified to talk to people
about that especially, some of my friends are not supportive
of abortion, so it was a very scary thing for
me to talk about.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
So you didn't have anyone else who knew about this
other than your boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Now, I told some friends after the fact, but before
I made the decision and before I had the abortion,
I did not have anyone that I talked to about it. So, yeah,
it's definitely a lonely, lonely time.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
When you say that he was there, meaning you said
he drove you there, he paid for it. Was he
able to be there for you emotionally?

Speaker 3 (11:37):
I do think in his own way he was. I
think again, because we didn't really have the communication skills
to really talk about it. It was him being there
just by physically being there. He would stay in bed
and watch TV with me. He would work from bed
also because he also worked from home. His physical presence
was how he was being there for me because I
didn't have words to communicate how I was feeling at.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
The time, and he didn't have words to talk to
you about how he was feeling or to inquire about
how you were feeling.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
No, he's since early on, always struggled with emotions, so
I think that was just very fitting for him.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
When you talk about that early connection that made you
say I love you to each other on the third date,
what was that about other than the fun and the infatuation.
Was there something deeper emotionally that you feel connected you
and that somehow got lost when this big crisis happened
in your relationship.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
That's a great question, one that I've gone over so
many times and trying to figure out what it was,
what got lost? Where did it go? There was a
level of comfort and enjoyment in his presence that I've
never felt with anyone. I have struggled with depression since
high school, and when I met him was by far

(12:56):
the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. And
we would talk about that because he knew a lot
about my past and how much I'd struggled, and when
I have conversations with him, it would be like I
have never felt like this free, this comfortable, this happy.
A lot of people talk about honeymoon period and like
things do change. It's just I think it scares me
that changed so much and that just feels like it's

(13:17):
completely gone, Like how do I get just any level
of that.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
Back to where it was you talk about this history
of depression that you have, and he also, you said,
had a difficult upbringing. Do you think that part of
the connection and the comfort that you felt with him
was that he was also someone who had experienced depression, anxiety,
some of the things that felt familiar to you.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Based on the conversations we've had, he's had a very
hard time connecting to his emotions. So even if that
was the case, he would adamantly tell you it's not.
He really sees his childhood as not being traumatic, not
being that difficult.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
So his mother died at thirteen, and then his stepfather
sent him to military school, but he's saying it wasn't
really that bad.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Nope, And then he was raised by his grandparents, who
you know, weren't he didn't.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Have parents, right, And so sometimes a response to trauma
is that we can't access our emotions. So maybe it's
more comfortable for him than to acknowledge that there's some
trauma there that is blocking him from accessing his emotions.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, that sounds very likely.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
So you have the abortion, and then you get really
depressed after you have the abortion, and you say to him,
if I get pregnant again, I'm not having another abution.
Tell us about that conversation.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yeah, it was actually at the request of my therapist,
who after talking to her about it, she's like, you
need to have this conversation for the future and let
him know how you're feeling. Let him know that if
you get pregnant again, you want to keep the baby.
And I'm so grateful that she suggested that, because I
would be in an entirely different circumstance if she had it.
So that was the conversation that we had later on

(15:08):
than I told him, if I get pregnant again, I
want to keep the baby and I need you to
know that moving forward.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
And his response.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Was just okay, like very nonchalant.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
I agreed, yes completely. How clear was he about how
difficult the abortion was for you at the time.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
He understood how difficult it was for me. Immediately following
this depression, I shook myself out of it. We literally
packed up all of our things, moved across the country
to the West Coast, and we're kind of going to
just start over new there. And it was one month,
it might have been two months after moving there that

(15:48):
I found out I was pregnant again.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
I think what guy was asking, how did your boyfriend
react to your depression after the abortion? You said you
fell into this deep depression. What was that like between
the two of you? You wrote in your letter he
really didn't understand it. Yeah, and yet it sounds like
maybe in his life when he feels depressed, he compartmentalizes that,

(16:14):
and maybe seeing someone depressed is really scary for him.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah. I would definitely agree with that. It's been very
difficult for him when he sees me in that place.
He has a cousin who is the same age as us,
who's basically his sister. He went to talk to her
and ask her like what he could do. I hadn't
gone out of bed for weeks, and he was concerned
and he didn't know what to do. And she reached
out to me and was talking to me about it,
which is how I know he was very concerned. He

(16:40):
just didn't know how to voice those to me.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
We didn't tell you that he was very concerned. No,
could you tell that he was very concerned. I mean
before the cousin, let you know.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
No, looking back now that I know it makes sense,
but in the moment, I definitely felt very alone. I
felt like he wasn't mourning this loss same way I was.
I felt like he was experiencing relief instead of grief,
and that was really hard.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Did you talk to him about the grief that you
were experiencing.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
I did, but I don't remember how much I really
said to him. I think even when I'm in that headspace,
when I'm feeling very depressed, I don't want to talk
about things either, So it was really easy for things
to just get pushed under the rug.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Were you talking to your therapist about it? Yeah, So
here's what's interesting. You're telling your therapist how you feel.
He's telling his cousin how he feels. Yeah, but the
two of you are not telling each other. You both
have reasons, Oh, you know, we don't communicate, or when
I'm depressed, I don't like to talk, but you talk
to your therapist. It's that there's something about talking to

(17:47):
each other where the block is.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, you know, and this sometimes happens when two people
connect over. You said fun. We just had a lot
of fun together. You said, you happier than you'd ever
been in those early times in the relationship. So he
sees a very specific side of you. You see a
very specific side of him, and it's almost like you've

(18:11):
contracted one another to be together in this fun state
and then life gets really real. But that changes something
really fundamental between the two of you. You know how
to be together and have fun, but you didn't know
how to be together and deal with hardships, with real challenges,

(18:33):
and it really pivoted the flavor of the entire relationship
into an area that you're both less comfortable with and
less familiar with with one another.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yes, very much. So we got like thrown off the
deep end and were not prepared at all for that.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
And some of the subtext in your letter and in
some of the things you're saying, and you're saying this
about you, but it might be true of him as
well that you're seeking how do we get back to
the fun? And my question to you is is that
where you want to get back to?

Speaker 3 (19:05):
I think it's unrealistic to think that that level of
fun or the way that fun looked is even realistic
now with multiple kids. And it's something that's come up
again and again in our couples therapy sessions, is that
we are missing this fun, this excitement, this joy of
being around each other, the lightheartedness. Maybe that's not realistic
to have when you have young children, and maybe there

(19:27):
needs to be a different form of connection that we find.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
You can absolutely have fun and joy and connection and
delight in each other and enjoy each other's company as
parents with young kids, it's more about the fun that
you were having was one layer and it didn't go
very deep. Yeah, and maybe this lack of connection. Part

(19:51):
of it is that you need to have more fun together.
But part of it is that you need to learn
how to truly connect on a deeper level with each other.
And when you learn how to connect on a deeper
level with each other, that will allow you to have
more fun with each other.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
I would even add even to recognize when you are
connecting at a deeper level to one another, because I
think you probably are in certain moments even now, but
it might not look like it's supposed to quote unquote,
or like it used to quote unquote. It feels different now.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, and that's probably a very big likelihood of that.
I definitely know my brain is very wired to think
of the negatives, especially in relationships. I notice it all
the time, and I don't know how to shake myself
from it. So there's probably time where we are connecting
on deeper levels and I am I'm not noticing it.
I'm writing it off. I'm letting it skate by without
taking note of like that we are having these moments

(20:48):
and without holding onto them as well.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Can we go back for a minute just to catch
us up on what happened after you got pregnant the
second time and you had already agreed that if you
got pregnant again you would have the baby, and then
he asked you to have an abortion. Take us through
what those conversations were like.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
I definitely feel like that was probably more of the
defining moment that changed our relationship, since I did feel
like I communicated where I stood and felt like we
were on the same page. And then the time came
and I realized we weren't at all. When I found
out that I was pregnant, actually, the only reason I
found out was because my depression got even worse. It
was probably the worst it'd ever been. I was actively

(21:34):
planning committing suicide. I had told him like, I cannot
live like this, I cannot live like this anymore.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Did your therapist know about that?

Speaker 3 (21:44):
No, since we had just moved across the country. I
actually stopped seeing her, so it was probably not great
timing of that either.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Were you in any medication, No, I was not given
how you felt. Did you think that maybe you should
find a therapist at the time?

Speaker 3 (22:00):
In the moment, I definitely felt like for the majority
of my life since high school, had been depressed for
good ten years. I mean, I've probably been on over
thirty different combinations of mood stabilizers and antidepressants and none
of them helped. So I felt like I had really like,
in my mind at the time, I had really given
life a fair chance, and this was just like the

(22:20):
defining moment in my mind. I've tried this, this is
not for me.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Did your boyfriend know about this or did you share
this with him your history with depression and suicidality.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Yes, yeah, he was very aware of all that. We'd
had a lot of conversations about that.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
How did he respond to that and did you share
with him that this was happening in the present and
what was his response to that?

Speaker 3 (22:43):
It was actually very surprising. That was the first time
I'd seen him cry. So he cried and was very
heartbroken that I would even consider that I think he
definitely took it as he's not enough. He put the
responsibility on him, and that was really really hard for him.
He's a very positive, happy person all the time, and

(23:06):
that was the first time I really saw a shift
in him like this heaviness took over him.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
He's a positive, happy person all the time on the outside.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, on the outside.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, So there you are thinking you might want to
end your life and he's aware of that. Did the
two of you have a plan for how to get
you some help?

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (23:29):
He even mentioned that, like, do we need to go
get you committed somewhere with that help? And I was like, no,
I've been through this twice. It does not help. And
then I have a friend who she's a therapist, and
I think he reached out to her as like kind
of a I don't know who else can help you.
But she had lived with us for a while, so
he was familiar with her, so he called her. And
then he also talked to his cousin as well, who

(23:51):
is a therapist also, so she called me. So I
had lots of conversations with people. I think that he
didn't know how to handle it, so he basically reached
out to other people and had them try and handle it.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
So he was really trying to get you help as
best he can. He really doesn't know what to do,
and he's actually calling people to try and find out, Well,
how can I help her? How can I help her?
He's expressing to you he's upset, he's crying for the
first time. How did that feel to you that he's
really worried, that he just cares a lot about you.
Did that come across to you?

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yeah? That was hard for me. Like I said, I
noticed that like heaviness set in for him, and I
had this moment of like, I think it honestly reaffirmed
a lot of my negative thinking in terms of how
badly it affected him and how quickly like I could
cause him to feel this bad and to be this worried.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
So that's depression talking, right, Because depression, instead of saying,
here's this man who really loves me, even though he
doesn't express it well in words, he really loves me.
He's doing whatever he can and he doesn't have great tools,
depression turns that into oh, my goodness, look at the
bird and I'm putting on him. He was such a
bright spirit and I'm damp.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yes, very much so, that was very well said.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
And did do you identify that that was depression? Are
you aware enough of the cognitive distortions that happen, how
your mind can twist even positive things into the negative?

Speaker 3 (25:16):
Sadly not aware enough at the time. The therapist I
ended up seeing about two months after that, she I
think helped me the most with like suicidal thoughts and
struggling with that. Her way of viewing it was kind
of befriending the suicidal thoughts and like viewing them as
a separate part. And I had never learned how to
separate myself from that. I had always been like, this

(25:37):
is me. I am depressed, Like I am having these thoughts,
these are real, this is a part of me. I
had never separated myself from all of those thoughts and
been able to look at it and be like, oh,
here's depression again. I hear you. I had never looked
at it that way.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
A moment ago, you were crying as we were talking
about how much your then boyfriend cared about you. Can
you talk about that a little bit, how that touched you.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yeah, I think there's a big part of me that
feels like I don't deserve him in many ways, especially
early on, in like how much he cared about me
and how much he did try and do to help.
So I think that's really what caused me to tear up,
is thinking about that.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
So you start to see a new therapist, it starts
to help a little bit, and then you get pregnant again.
And you two had had this conversation that you would
not have another abortion. How then did it happen that
he asked you to have one anyway? Was he concerned

(26:44):
about your depression? Did he feel like the situation had
changed because of that? What was his reasoning given how
clear you had been?

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, the depression was actually a defining factor and why
he wanted me to get another abortion. He felt like
I was not emotionally capable of taking care of a child.
That was the exact thing he said to me is
you're not emotionally capable of caring for this child. And
that really stuck with me. I was like, maybe he's right.
I mean, look at where I am. I'm like, of course,
of course he's right. So that was very hard.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
And was there any reference to how depressed you got
from the previous abortion and what having another one might
do to you.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah, that was a big part of my conversation, and
that's actually how I ended up making the decision that
I made, which was, you know, to have the baby
who is now he's my son, that's two years old.
I made the appointment for the abortion three different times,
and every time I did not go, and every time
it was I cannot live with myself if I make
this decision again.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
When you had made the appointment and you didn't go,
how did he respond to your saying I just absolutely
cannot do this.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
His words said, I'll support you in whatever decision you make.
You know where I stand, but I'll support you.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
What did I'll support you mean we'll be together as
a couple, We'll raise the baby together. What did that mean?

Speaker 3 (28:11):
That was actually a conversation we never had when I
decided to not have the abortion. I went into that
thinking that meant he would be there, maybe financially, maybe emotionally.
But I didn't see that as that meant we're going
to be together and raise this child together. But that
is very much what he meant. He meant we will
be a family, we will give this a shot, we

(28:32):
will take care of this child. As best we know.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
How what prevented you from asking what it meant when
he said I'll be there and to talk about what
it meant for your relationship, whether you would be together
as a couple, as a family. Why didn't you ask
that question.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
I think there was a little bit of fear around
what the answer would be. I think there was a
part of me that had fully accepted that I would
be raising this child on my own, forcing someone into this,
so therefore I need to take the responsibility for this child.
That was kind of my mentality. Even though he was
saying like, i'll support you, I didn't hear that, as

(29:10):
we're a team in this, let's have a conversation together.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
It's so interesting that he says to you, I want
you to have an abortion because I don't think you're
capable of caring for a child. And the subtext is
because I see that you're doing really poorly and you're
not caring well for yourself at the moment, so it
scares me how you might care for a child. But
the minute you made the decision, there's so much strength
in your voice when you talk about I had in

(29:37):
my head I will be raising this child alone. You
sound determined, You sound like you have agency. You sound
so much stronger in that moment of decision, almost like
the antithesis of somebody who doesn't have the strength to
be a mom. Did you feel the strength when that

(29:57):
was happening.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, I did. That was a very big moment for me.
Was I knew when I was having this child like
that meant I was also choosing to no longer ever
consider suicide. Like my decision was I was going to
continue to live and take care of this child. So
it was a very very big decision for me.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
That's a real pivot. How much were you aware of
the strength that you discovered and starting to think of
yourself as being stronger emotionally, being more resilient than you
had thought of yourself to be.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
I'm not sure I've given it much thought. I think
early on, when I did first make that decision, I
could feel the difference. I could feel like this level
of hope that it gave me that I'd never really
had before.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
And purpose and goals, yes, motivation, all of it.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yeah, they gave me I guess, yeah, a focus on
something other than myself. I think that when you're caught
in depression for so long, you're so caught up with
yourself and your feelings, it's really really hard to think
about other people. And this has been like a no
brain like my son is always first, and I've never
had to put someone first in that way. It's been
healing in a way.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
So how did you come around in terms of supporting
the pregnancy and how much was he there for you
during When did you see a change of attitude from
him from I don't want this, but I'll support you
to this is my kid too.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Yeah. So shortly after I made the decision to not
go through the abortion, we started couple's therapy, So he
was very on board with working through all of this together,
figuring out how we can best approach this as a team.
So I think that was the first sign of him
showing that he was there, he was going to do
what it takes. We then shortly moved back to the

(31:49):
East Coast as soon as our lease was up, to
be closer to both of our families, and so that
was another big thing of him showing he's in this
for the long haul. I decided I wanted to as
much time taking care of our son, and I quit
my job, so he took on full financial provider. It
has been very very large shift for him. And I

(32:09):
think all those were continuing to show me like he's
really doing his best to take on this new role.
And I think that once my son got a little older,
it really showed how much he loved him and how
grateful he was to have him in his life. He
just brought so much joy to both of us that
I think neither of us ever really looked back.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
So you're both making these big commitments to one another
and they get missed mutually because it seems like you're
making the commitment to the baby and you missed the
part that's the commitment to one another. Do you see that?

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah, No, that is very very accurate. I mean, so
we got married five months ago. The decision was because
we were having a second kid, not because we were
committing to each other, not because we were so in
love that we couldn't wait to get married. It was
we went to the courthouse signed legal paperwork because we
were having a second kid, and that's what you do
when you're having kids together. Yeah, the commitment to each

(33:07):
other was kind of lost.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
And it's a shame really because the commitment too one
another was definitely there, But you're feeling a real lack
of deep emotional connection. You're saying there's something that's missing. Yeah,
the question is is it missing or is it there?
But you're not seeing it because you're not looking at
the relationship. You're looking at the baby, at the past

(33:29):
and not at the present and how you've each showed
up for the relationship for one another as well as
for the baby.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah, it's probably more likely the latter that I'm not
noticing all of these things, that I'm not giving them
enough weight. I definitely notice that in myself a lot
that I'm more likely to jump to like all the
things he did wrong instead of even giving a second
thought to all the things he did right. So I
think that all of the things that show the love

(33:57):
and show that we're there for each other and that
we are a team, they get lost very easily.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Does he feel today also that there's something missing? Was
his state of the union? Sort about the relationship today?

Speaker 3 (34:13):
He doesn't put as much weight on it as I do.
He has the desire to get back to kind of
having this enjoyment in our relationship. He misses that as well,
But I think he sees it more as not a
big deal, whereas I see it as like this is
potentially like the beginning of the end, Like if you
just keep letting this go, it just gets worse and

(34:35):
worse and resentment builds, and you just end up in
a relationship ten years down the road that you don't
recognize and neither of you are happy, and you decide, oh,
it's the relationship that's the problem. So we view it
very differently.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
I agree with you that there is and always has
been some kind of emotional disconnect between the two of you,
even during that fun time. The fun time was all
the unfinished business that you both had that you thought

(35:09):
you'd find in each other. There's that phrase, we marry
our unfinished business if we haven't processed it. And you
both had really difficult childhoods in different ways, and you
both dealt with them in different ways. So he compartmentalized,
you became depressed and hopeless, and then you saw something

(35:34):
in each other that seemed like something different, even though
it was so familiar unconsciously to both of you outside
of your awareness. And sometimes when you start working through this,
it can be a really good match because you processed it,

(35:55):
and then there is sort of that touch point, there
is that place of compact for each other, there's a
place of deeper connection. But it sounds like even still
even being married, even having two kids, having gone through
all that you've gone through, you're not really having the
conversations that you needed to have back then and that

(36:17):
are still just not happening now. So I don't think
that you really know how he feels, and I don't
think he really understands.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
How you feel.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
I think you've said it, but I don't think he
truly understands it. What were those early times like with
your son.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
He did say he felt an instant connection once my
son was born. He did say that, I think I
just didn't see the connection until much later, probably like
when my son feels six months or so is when
I really started to see him, like start to connect
with him, started to see this like joy and excitement

(37:02):
and like your face lighting up when you see him
first thing in the morning. When you know, when babies
are younger, you don't see as much of their personality.
It's just much more of a caretaking, tedious, tiresome role.
Sometimes when their little personalities come out and you're seeing
smiles and giggles, and they're playing and you can interact
with them. That's when he really started to connect with

(37:23):
him a lot more.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
And how did you feel seeing that?

Speaker 3 (37:28):
It was definitely really reassuring to see, to witness to
feel the mutual love there. It definitely made us feel
more like a family instead of two people pretending to
be a family. I guess I think those are the
moments that it really like dialed in that we're in
this together. I went into it with this mentality of

(37:51):
I made this decision, therefore I need to take on
as much of the burden as I can. I don't
want to ask him for too much. I don't want
to put too much on him, and I don't want
him to feel overwhelmed and run for the hills before
we even know where this goes. My parents are very
unhappily married. I do not want their relationship in any way,

(38:12):
shape or form. I very much am like I need
to know if this can be a happy marriage, because
I will not stay in an unhappy marriage. I cannot
do that.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
That is not who I am, right and I think
it's another incidence of him making a commitment to the
family that you perceive as a commitment to the kid
and not to you. He moved to the East Coast
with you, he took on the financial responsibilities. He wasn't
showing you that you're in this alone. The opposite is true.

(38:40):
He was like, we're in this together. His actions were
really clear, but it didn't register with you as a
statement about how he felt toward you. Yeah, and I
suspected that's still not quite landing with you, that how
he feels towards you, and all the behaviors that he
has that demonstrate his commit and love for you don't

(39:01):
necessarily land because you see them and you're like, oh,
that's that's for the kid, that's for the family, quote unquote,
but not necessarily for me.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
It's very true. And I think that's how I have
viewed a lot of those things, is it's a commitment
to our children, not a commitment to me. I am
the thing that comes with having kids. I am not
the thing you are choosing. I am the obligation that
comes with the thing you are choosing.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
And do you see that that might be a misperception
that his behavior is quite consistent in the commitment being
to you as well.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah, I do. As you were saying that, I am
thinking of all the times our couples therapist has said
something similar in terms of like, this is how much
he loves you, this is how much he wants this
to work. Like things that I discount and think of
as not being these huge devotions of love, I look
right by them. So it's really sinking in as you.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Say that, What is it that you don't want about
your parents' marriage?

Speaker 3 (40:03):
Who there's a lot. I don't want the lack of connection.
I don't want the disrespect. They are not a team.
They are two separate people that are stuck in the
same existence. They do not enjoy each other's company. When
I was in middle school, my dad would bribe me
to try and get my mom to go out to
dinner with him. They don't spend time together. My mom

(40:26):
is a wonderfully positive person, except when it comes to
my father. With my father, it is nothing but negative
things and disrespectful things, and they're mean and harsh and
they put each other down. And I don't ever want
that level of disrespect in my own relationship.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
What was your parents' reaction to you having this big
life change of all of a sudden, having a baby,
moving in with your boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
They definitely had mixed feelings. My dad is very, very
strong and strict Catholic who is very against abortion, very
against sex before marriage, very against living together before marriage.
Any decision I made, he's against. So they definitely made
it very clear that this is not what they wanted
for me. But they also made it very clear that

(41:14):
they love me no matter what. They will be there
to support me in any way that they can.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Are they involved with their grandchildren?

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yes, my mom absolutely absolutely adores my son, and she
comes almost every other week. She lives a few hours
away but still comes all the time. And my dad
is less involved, but he still very much cares. He
shows up to any family events and he takes interest
in things like that.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
How do they feel about your husband?

Speaker 3 (41:42):
My mom adores him. My mom and my husband are
very similar in many ways, so they've gotten along since
day one. My dad, it took some warming up just
because of how he viewed our relationship and the parameters
in which it began.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
What I'm curious about is it's one thing to say
I'm going to financially support you and I'm going to
move across the country and do all these things. But
I don't hear a lot about the two of you
talking about what this meant for your relationship. Even after
you had your son. It doesn't sound like anybody was
talking about are we going to be together for the

(42:20):
long term? Are we going to get married? And it
wasn't until you got pregnant with your daughter that you
decided to get married. So what do you think was
going on where nobody was talking about what is this
thing that we're doing?

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yeah, there was no communication. He proposed to me initially
when I was pregnant with our son, so two and
a half years ago. He proposed to me then, and
then we pretty much had no conversations about when we
would actually get married.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
So you said yes, yeah, Uh huh. Why were there
no conversations about when you would get married?

Speaker 3 (42:58):
From my perspective, I think it was me still trying
to figure out if we could be that happy relationship
that I wanted.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
But did you tell him that you weren't sure about
that or you just didn't talk about it?

Speaker 3 (43:13):
More, we didn't talk about it. There were definitely times
where I expressed my concerns and that was why we
ended up going back to couple's therapy and we would
have some conversations, but I was very afraid to express
the severity of my concerns, Like I remember one time
where I felt like it was just consuming me. My
thoughts were just all constantly contemplating the relationship, and so

(43:38):
I talked to him about it and his response was, well,
if you're not sure about us, then what are we doing?

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Just leave?

Speaker 3 (43:45):
And that, in my mind was very much like a Oh,
it's not safe to express these doubts, these fears that
I have, and I didn't really broach the subject again.
My way of broaching the subject was let's go to
couple's therapy and work on whatever is causing this disconnection.
It was definitely a fear to have more of that conversation.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Could you imagine how hurt and terrified he was when
you said.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
That, yeah, yeah, yeah, So there's a lot of.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Making sense in your own minds about what's happening without
really taking in the context of what's happening around you.
So when you said that to him, you heard his
reaction as well. I just can't express my true feelings
to him without thinking, Wow, he's really committed to me.

(44:39):
He wants to be together, and I've just told him
that I'm not sure about us.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Yeah, I definitely didn't draw all of these connections before.
You guys are putting them out, the connection of him
continually showing his commitment to us and me, Yeah, ignoring
every single one of them. I'm oblivious to all of them.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
You know, when you talk about fun, it occurs to
me that it's really hard to have fun when you
don't feel safe, and it's hard to feel safe when
people aren't communicating. Talking makes you both scared and makes
you both feel even more disconnected. So of course you're
going to avoid it. And if you can find a

(45:25):
way to talk in a way that feels connecting, you're
both going to feel safer with each other. And once
you feel safe in a relationship, that's when you can
have fun. Having fun is about letting go. Having fun
is about letting your guard down.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
How did he propose to you?

Speaker 3 (45:45):
It was just taking me to a park that I
really loved in the area right on the coast, and
you got down on one knee, and I mean there
was no like sweet word said, there was no loving
sentiment shared. It was just a simple will you marry
me kind of thing. It felt very forced and obligatory,
and honestly, it's not a moment that I like looking

(46:09):
back on because I feel like it should feel full
of love and joy and it doesn't, do you.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
Know how it felt to him.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Similar He felt very forced, he said, so. He felt
like he wasn't able to do it on his own terms,
in his own way, in a way that felt right
to him.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
To me, the actions are saying I'm committed to this family,
but I'm not hearing a lot. And I really love you, Nora,
I really want to be with you, Nora. And I
think that's where the disconnection. I see you nodding, that's
where the disconnection is for you, that this all happened

(46:49):
in the context of these pregnancies, and there's never been
a real reckoning of what part is for the family
and commitment and the kids and what part is about
And you love me for me, and you would want

(47:10):
to be with me anyway, and I think that that's
really important. And so I'm curious about how the marriage
part came about.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
When we found out we were partner at the second
time I brought up getting married. I'm pretty sure my
exact words were, we're having a second child, Look, we
should go get married.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Did you ever say to him, I want to get
married because I love you, Because it sounds to me
that what you're asking for from him is something you
haven't given him either, So in his mind, he might
be thinking she wants to be with me, not because
she chooses me or because she really loves me, and

(47:54):
if we didn't have these kids, she would still want
to marry me. But we're having another kid, let's get married.
It's not super romantic, and I.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Know it's not, And I think that's probably a big
part of why I'm so fearful to have those conversations
with him, and probably why I don't interpret his actions
to mean that, because I genuinely don't feel like we
would be getting married if we didn't have kids.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
If he had been someone who would have been able
to express in words what he's expressing in actions and
say to you, I love you, I'm proposing because I
want to be with you. I care for you, I
want to be with you in the longhold. Do you
think that would have changed how you felt about him?

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Yeah, I think that would have changed a lot. I
think it would have changed a lot, being able to
hear the words behind his actions and know his intentions
instead of having to constantly guess and letting my mind
wander into these what if scenarios and always feeling like
I'm questioning the relationship instead of feeling like there's safety

(48:59):
and security.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
And if there were the safety and security, do you
think you'd have been able to express to him how
you felt about him? Would that have been easier to do? Yeah,
if you would have heard those things from him.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
I think I would have had less doubts and concerns
along the way, because I think me feeling like he
has doubts and concerns feeds my doubts and concerns, and
it's just like a constant cycle.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
I do think it's a constant cycle, and I do
think you reinforce that in one another. And again, my
suspicion is that you both actually do have those feelings
for one another, but you're not expressing them you because
he doesn't, he because you don't, and that you're just
reinforcing a disconnect, which I'm not sure is even there.

(49:43):
To be honest, I'm not sure that it's The disconnect
is not profound I think the hesitation on both sides
because of the history is profound, but I'm not sure
the disconnect emotionally actually is.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Yeah, that resonates with me a lot and sounds very accurate,
very much like that's kind of the piece that's been missing.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
I'm thinking about your mother and how you said she
was a very positive person except when it came to
how she felt around my father and the criticisms. So
it's kind of like the positive person you describe your
husband that way too. There's some of your mother in there,
but there's also some of the mother in you with

(50:26):
finding fault with your husband.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yes, our couple therapist has actually suggested I have a
conversation with my mom because she does come to visit
fairly often, and I notice when she is around, I
am so much more critical, and I will say comments
criticizing my husband when I normally would not. I don't
even think I would think to criticize it. It just
comes out. It's like I hear it from her all
the time, and it just like flips a switch in

(50:52):
my brain and my brain can't think about anything positive
to do with my husband. And so our couple therapists
has actually suggested we have a conversation with her to
ask her to not talk negatively about my dad, which
is a scary conversation to have, but I do think
that it definitely makes it harder for me to stay
positive in my own relationship.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
So you guys got married, and it was hey, we're
having another baby, we should get married. You to him, Yeah,
was there anything romantic about getting married?

Speaker 3 (51:26):
No, there was nothing romantic. It was purely driving to
the courthouse, getting papers, notor eyes, and returning them to
the courthouse.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Did you put on a dress? How much did this
feel like the ritual of getting married in whatever way
would be meaningful to the two of you?

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Or was it straight to the drag cleaners in the supermarket?

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Pretty much, straight to the drag cleaners in the supermarket.
I put on a white dress, but it wasn't like
a wedding dress. It was just a white sun dress.
Our son went with us to go to the courthouse
sparely even spoke about it after. I didn't get a
ring for a few months after that. Why, I think
there was still this hesitation and this like unrealness to me,

(52:10):
And it felt like buying a ring was acknowledging that
it was real.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
The hesitation came from you about buying the ring.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Yeah, he actually bought one. First. He wanted to go
to the mall and buy a ring, so he bought one,
and I waited a while. I used the excuse of
it was a lot more expensive than his ring, but
in reality we could have bought it. I just put
it off for a while.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Have you ever in your life felt loved in the
way that you wanted to feel loved?

Speaker 3 (52:38):
No, my mom makes me feel loved now. As a child,
I did not feel that from her at all. She
has changed a lot, She's grown a lot.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
What's the difference between how your mom was then and
how she is now.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
When I was growing up, she was very invalidating. When
I was in high school started struggling with an eating disorder,
that's when I really started struggling with depression, and my
mom didn't understand any of it, and it felt like
she was ashamed of me, like I was a burden.
She didn't know how to be there for me. So
now as I'm older, she can show me that love,
and I'm very very grateful. I do feel very loved

(53:13):
from her now, But I did.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Not when I was a child. When you say she
was invalidating, I mean the way that she was critical
of your father. She was critical of you.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
In different ways. Yes, I think she was always very
overly concerned with other people's perceptions of us and of me,
more so than my own feelings. And I also think
I have four younger siblings, so she was also very preoccupied.
We were all two years apart, and I think she
couldn't give me the attention that I needed because it

(53:44):
was she had to give it to four other kids
and your father. My father worked a lot. He came
home to discipline us and yell at us and force
us to go to church, but he was not around.
I mean, he worked so much to give us what
we had, and I now recognize that as his act
of love. But of course, as a child, you don't
see that as love.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
You mentioned in your letter that your husband is a
wonderful father. Different from what you experienced, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Very different from what I experienced. He's here a lot,
he is involved. I can go get dinner with a
friend and I don't have to explain to him what
to do. He knows he's there on a daily basis.
If both of us are losing our temper and we're
just having a hard day. He helps, he knows what
to do versus my dad would never have known. My

(54:35):
mom left us with my dad one afternoon for like
an hour and a half, so she went to a
doctor's appointment, and like, I was down the street. They
didn't know where I was. I was gone down the
street at a friend's house and my brother was just
hanging from the chandelier and my dad was just watching TV.
Like he's like, I don't know what to do with
these kids, so very very different.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Can I ask what you love about him and what
are some of the things from those early days that
you still see in him, and what are some new
things that you've come to love about him.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Early on, it was definitely his positivity and like lightheartedness
and his silliness. He's very playful. I'm a very serious person,
so that was definitely a wonderful way to balance each
other out because I'm not playful at all. I think
that helped make all of our interactions fun and exciting
because he brought that to all of interactions I've never

(55:30):
had that. He's very determined and he works hard at
things he loves learning new things. He's never afraid to
jump in and try something, and even if it is
a disaster, he doesn't get upset. He doesn't have a
breakdown like I would. He's just like, oh, okay, well
what can I do differently? And he does it. I
very much admire his resilience and how he handles things,

(55:52):
something that I would love to also have. So I
see a lot of traits in him that I don't
have and that I admire and wanted to also have,
And I think that's what drew us to each other initially.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
I don't have a good picture of what it's like
when the two of you are together. Do you have
any time where the two of you are together where
you're just maybe even watching a TV show together or
having a meal together after your son goes to sleep. Yeah,
maybe like once a week, Like we just had that
two nights ago, and what was that?

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Like? There's nothing wrong with the interaction, but the times
we spend together don't feel connecting anymore. I feel empty.
That's the part that I can't figure out where the
emptiness is coming from. And it feels like it's me
blocking the connection.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Well, you are keeping him at arm's length. There's a
huge hesitation you have about allowing yourself to get close
because you're so afraid that he's not emotionally in it,
that he's in it for the kids, that he's in
it for the obligation, and some of that you're projecting
on him. Some of that are your fears and feelings
that you're kind of putting on him. But I think

(56:57):
that when you're hanging out together, it stresses you out
and it makes you anxious because I think you anticipate
feeling a lack of connection, and I think a self
fulfilling prophecy plays out almost every time where you sit
there and the tension comes across to him as cold
or as distant, and so he's hesitant to get close,

(57:17):
and then you sense the hesitancy and it confirms Ah,
you see, he doesn't really care, and that self perpetuates.
And I think that it really starts with this fear
you have, And I think it's because it's really scary
to think that maybe, after everything and all my history
of depression and anxiety my parents, maybe I actually have

(57:38):
something good here. I think is scary.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Yeah, that sounds very true, And I also don't think
I'd thought about it that way, but that definitely feels
very accurate. It is definitely scary to feel that way.
Some part of me feels like I don't deserve it,
and some part of me feels like it's too good
to be true, Like here was the situation that was

(58:03):
one big giant accident after another, and it's turning out
to be going in the direction most people would love
for it to go in, and that feels I'm not
good with positive emotions, so I think that scares me
even more that this is a big positive thing. In
my brain's like, wait a second, we don't know how
to handle.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
This, right, I don't know how to do happy?

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Yeah, I don't. It feels very threatening. My brain definitely
registers that as like warning, warning, danger, Like you're about
something happy is coming along, and it freaks.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Out and I can't trust it. Something happy is coming
along and I can't trust it. And it's much better
to be on guard and to protect myself by finding
everything that might be wrong in the environment, including my partner,
because then at least I'm prepared. Yeah, then at least
I'm safe and I don't have to get seduced into

(59:00):
this happy place where I might get really really hurt.
At least my eyes are wide open here. But that's
not a very satisfying way to live.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
No, So, Laura, we have some advice for you. You
told us about when you are having a lot of
suicidal ideation. One of the things that was helpful for
you was to externalize that voice, so it wasn't really
your thoughts. It was the thoughts when you're feeling very depressed,

(59:33):
and that was helpful to create real separation between you
and those kind of thoughts. And since that was helpful,
would like you to do something similar with some of
the depressed, kind of distorted cognitions you have around the
understanding of your husband and the marriage and what you're getting.

(59:55):
You said, he can do these nice gestures, but then
your mind immediately goes to, yeah, but did that really
mean that or was he really just doing it? For
this reason, we'd like you to label those negative thoughts
as these are the depressed thoughts. This is what happens
to me cognitively when I'm depressed. I tend to seek
the negative and label them that, and then see them

(01:00:18):
as being outside of you and reject them and say, no,
I'm going to focus on some of the positive here
to balance that out. It's difficult to stop an intrusive
thought like that, but you can add a positive one
to balance it out. And so you labeled no, that's
depressive thinking. What I'm really going to focus on is
how he did A B and C. Okay, so, and

(01:00:38):
we'd like you to really get on top of that
the way you did with a suicidal thinking, because they
had to be very on it and mindful of it
to kind of banish it as you did successfully. Similar strategy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Yes, that sounds great, and you come by that negativity
naturally because your mother did that with your father in
being very critical and you said she complains a lot still,
So we would like you to have that conversation with
your mother that when she's around you, to please not

(01:01:12):
share those complaints because it really primes your own negativity
and you can let her know that you're really working
on this and that it would be really helpful for
you if she would not share those complaints when she's
around you.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
Yeah, I definitely need to have that conversation with her.
And in terms of the I guess cognitive distortion that
I find the having to separate myself from it seems
a lot more manageable and a lot more realistic for
how I have dealt with things in the past. So
I think that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Yeah, it's not denying how you feel. It's saying, like
you did with the suicidality, I feel this way, and
there's also this yeah, right, I can put that over
there and also feel this.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Yeah, remembering that you know, this has been something I've
been hearing my entire life, and it makes sense that
my brain is jumping to these thoughts because this is
the only way it knows how to kind of see
a relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yes, that's how you're wired, but you can rewire, and
that's what we're trying to help with. And the next
thing that we would like you to do, and this
might sound kind of silly, but we would like you
and your husband to take ten minutes after your son
is asleep or whenever you have a moment that's just
the two of you, to turn out to music and

(01:02:31):
dance and you're smiling.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Smiling because that's one of the things I have the most,
like uncomfortable feelings around and dancing. So, yeah, you just
assigned the worst thing ever to me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Right. And here's the thing though, So whenever we do
assign this to couples, usually one of the people in
the couple says exactly that same thing, that they're really
uncomfortable with it, But then when they actually do it,
they find that it's so fun and free and connecting.
Because it's silly. We're not trying to make some kind

(01:03:07):
of romantic interaction happen at all. This is more like
the beginning of the relationship. This is more like we
can be silly, we can look ridiculous, and you have
to set a timer for ten minutes. It will seem
very long, but it's like three songs and you just
dance together. You don't have to use words. It's not

(01:03:27):
that we're going to have a conversation. It's literally just
we're going to spend time together and we're going to
kind of loosen up our nervous systems and our bodies
a little bit. And there's no goal. It's just we're
going to spend these ten minutes like this together, and
we want you to do this every night for a week. Okay,
ten minutes every night for a week. Find the time

(01:03:49):
to do this and just experience it, all.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
Right, that sounds terrifying.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
But you know what, it works much better with people
who are terrified of dancing than it does with Dan
says dances. That's fine, I'll just warm up and like no, no, no,
that's not gonna work.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Actually, guys, right, it works much better with people who
feel uncomfortable at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Exactly. That's the point of it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yes, and again, you know, choosing the songs. It can
be really fun taking turns, that kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
My husband will have a blast at this. I'm going
to be terrified out of my mind.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
He knows about this, right, he knows that you're having
this right. Okay, good, so you won't be surprised that
you're coming with homework.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Okay, No, he's very excited to hear the Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Next thing, we'd like to have a conversation together and
would like you to kind of be honest with him
and say to him, you know, when I see how
you are with us, son, when I think of how
when I was in bed and I couldn't get out
of bed, you would come and sit with me in
bed and work from home to be with me. When
I think of so many of the gestures that you've

(01:04:49):
made and the things that you do. I don't think
I've told you how meaningful those are for me, and
I don't think i've told you how much they touch me.
And I think part of why I haven't told you
that is because I sometimes don't trust that you love
me for me, because it's really scary for me to

(01:05:14):
trust that, And so I know that I sometimes push
you away for that reason. And I don't want to
push you away at all, but I need that validation
from you. I'd love to hear three things that you
love about me that aren't related to the kids, just me.

(01:05:37):
I think that would be really useful. And when he
says them, you have three things that you will tell
him that you love about him that are specific. And
we want to see how that moment feels to the
two of you to be vulnerable with each other about
it's scary for us to acknowledge how we feel because

(01:05:58):
of the way everything happened, and if you act despite
that fear. Be curious to see what will happen between
the two of you in that moment if you're both vulnerable.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Yeah, and again, I think my bias towards the negative
makes it like these conversations. I like to think I'm
good about talking emotional things, but I don't think I
am with him, and especially in the context of something positive,
that feels much more vulnerable and scary to me than
talking about negative emotions and what's wrong. So this is
definitely a good exercise and something I need more practice with.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
So that's the homework for this week, and we're really
excited to hear how that goes for you when you
report back.

Speaker 3 (01:06:40):
Thank you. I'm very excited to get started on all
of those, so thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
I think what's interesting here is because they had such
a difficult beginning where they had a crisis very early
on in the relationship, it's hard for them to tell
what are some of the things that they came into
the relationship with that would have been there regardless of
these pregnancies. And that's where I think it's really important

(01:07:15):
for them to start to explore what are the ways
that they both don't really know how to deal with intimacy,
don't really know how to communicate, and what are the
ways in which she, in particular, is so afraid of
connection even as she craves it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
I do think her anxiety about the connection is quite significant.
I think that fear is really making her project pessimistic
viewpoints outward in a way, and that pushes him away
and makes it difficult for him to express things. What
I didn't hear from her is bucket loads of resentment
for the situation that he's in. I hear him leaning in,

(01:07:55):
except he doesn't communicate that verbally. He communicates it all
in action.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Yeah, and also her talking about how she's never felt
loved in a romantic relationship before. It's new territory for her,
and I hope that the exercises that we gave them
for this week will help them to at least just
start to unblock a little bit of that blockage.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
I really hope. So it'll be so interesting to hear
how things go.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be back after a
short break. So, guy, we heard back from Nora, and
let's hear how her week went.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. I wanted to give you both
an update on my homework. Two out of the three
homeworks i'm have been going very well, but one of
them I have definitely been putting off. I talked to
my husband and I told him about all the valuable
insight that you both provided, and it naturally led to
one of the homework assignments, which was to have a
conversation about three things we love about the other person.

(01:09:17):
I honestly think he might have needed to have that
conversation more than I did. He seemed significantly more affectionate
and loving the next few days, and I could tell
there was like an instant shift in him emotionally that
was definitely much needed for him. For me, it didn't
feel like it hit quite as hard. There was nothing

(01:09:37):
he said that really surprised me, so it didn't really
feel very noteworthy. But I do know one of his
love languages is words of affirmation, whereas I have never
been big on words of affirmation, so that could be
a part of it as well. I also think that
he might be better at providing words of affirmation on

(01:09:57):
a regular basis or showing his affection than I am,
so he might have actually needed to hear that even
more than I did. I've also been working on separating
myself from any of the negative relationship thoughts, but the
negative relationship thoughts definitely ebb and flow, and this week
there haven't been many of them to practice on, which
is a good thing. And then last, I have found

(01:10:19):
every excuse in the book to avoid dancing for ten
minutes each night, so there's been very little progress made
on that front. But thank you again for all of
your incredible insight. There were so many things that deeply
resonated with me and truly helped me understand myself and
my relationship a lot better. And I am so so

(01:10:39):
grateful for having had the opportunity to learn from both
of you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I was really glad to hear that her husband took
so well to that exercise. It did seem to me
during the session that he needed that as much as
she needed that. And then the question I have is
why did that not land with her as much and
whether that might be related to how difficult it was

(01:11:08):
for her to do ten minutes of dancing with him
to kind of let go because she really struggles to
let go.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Yeah, she said, not only does her husband feel really
connected when he hears those words of affirmation, but that
he also offers them more than she's able to.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
And I think part of it is the things that
we spoke about, the depression, the negative thoughts, the intrusive thoughts.
When we have a lot of those, it just paints
a picture of the world that's got a great film
on it that's a bit negative and a bit skewed
to the pessimistic, and it's truly difficult to perceive the
good things when they're around, or to really allow them

(01:11:49):
to come in to be nourished by them. And those
negative thoughts can really keep somebody in a depressed space
and state of mind. And that's something that she's hopefully
will continue to be able to work on so that
she can really take in the good stuff when it's there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
And we discovered that that pattern actually came from her mom,
who she said was always complaining about her father and
then also would complain about Nora's husband, which then would
get Nora into that space of complaining about her husband.
And I noticed that she didn't comment on whether she
did that part of the assignment that we gave her
about asking her mom to hold those criticisms aside when

(01:12:30):
the mom is with Nora and her husband or even
just with Nora by herself.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
She was very clear that she didn't do the dancing
because she was just too uncomfortable and couldn't let go.
So it's not clear to me whether this was something
that she was uncomfortable to do or should just slip
her mind and didn't do. But Norah, if you're listening,
do it, because that's an important thing. I think imum
vida does impact your perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
And sometimes in a weird way, depression serves us because
we can avoid certain things that make us uncomfortable. So
the negative thoughts, while they're unpleasant, they're familiar to her
and they're less of a risk than going outside of
her comfort zone and really being vulnerable with another person.

(01:13:15):
And so you're kind of safe in this shield that
depression puts around you, and she's not choosing the depression,
but in some ways it might just be a little
more comfortable to her than being vulnerable and putting herself
out there in that way. And the dancing really is
an act of vulnerability. It's being with somebody in a

(01:13:38):
way where you're willing to look silly and you're willing
to embarrass yourself and it's really fun and it's such
an act of letting go where you're not thinking, you're
just being and you're letting your body do what it does.
And so I hope that Norah is able to maybe
work on that if she's doing therapy, and try to

(01:14:00):
push yourself a little bit, baby steps out of her
comfort zone. Maybe dance for one minute, Maybe try offering
a word of affirmation, or maybe taking in a word
of affirmation.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
I always find that when somebody says I have a
really hard time doing something that shouldn't be that hard
and should feel good and should feel good, I always
find that there are other ways in which the person
does not allow themselves perhaps to feel good. And I
always think it's a good idea. If you're struggling with that, Laura,

(01:14:36):
use that as a goal. Set yourself the goal to
work towards being able to do that ten minutes of silly, joyful,
vulnerable dancing. Because at the point that you can get that,
you've burst through a blockage. So work on that blockage,
because I think it'll be really diagnostic. When you can
do that, it means you've really been able to let

(01:14:57):
go in a way that's hard to do now. And
so that's a really come Greek gold to set to
see how you're doing. If I'm able to dance, I'm
doing well. If I'm not able to dance in the city.
It is still some more healing for me to do.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
Yeah, And I think healing is really important because so
many people who still have some healing to do walk
around with what I like to call the joy thief.
It's this part of them that wants to steal the
joy because they haven't healed yet, and there's a part
of them again where they feel, I'm going to keep
things small. I'm not going to be vulnerable. I don't
want to set myself up for feeling hurt or disappointed.

(01:15:31):
Connection feels scary to me on a deeper level. So
it's better to just let the joy thief take over,
because that way you won't get hurt, and it's so
worth feeling the joy knowing this. Sometimes you're going to
get hurt a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
But you can repair it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
So I hope that Nora will take more risks in
that way and really talk back to the joy thief
and say, I'm not going to let you steal my joy.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Next week, a man whose wife of forty years has
passed away wanders how to grieve while also moving forward
in a new relationship.

Speaker 4 (01:16:04):
She would say, in an accusatory way, you simply haven't
had enough time, you haven't stopped grieving, but this was
an excuse to put some distance between us.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
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people to find the show.

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
email us at laurandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive
producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,
Additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our
intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

(01:16:49):
podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see
you at our next session. The Therapist is a production
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