June 7, 2023 • 25 mins
Producers continue to discuss the fallout from the podcast and the real-world implications our investigation has had.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the studio who brought you the number one podcast,
the piked in Massacre. This is Death Island.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Just a few miles off the Thailand coast. The island
of Kotoo looks like a postcard.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I mean, it's almost like if you were going to
imagine a paradise island, they'll draw a picture of one.
That's what kota looks like.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Young tourists from all over the world visit the pristine
beaches and crystal clear water.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
Right underneath the surface lies something sinister.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
A dark cloud has come over the island and cast
its shadow death, history and danger.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
In the last twenty years, dozens of tourists have died
mysteriously on the island.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
One thing is certain in this beautiful place, no coast
is clear. This is Death Island, Episode twelve. This is
a roundtable conversation between our team, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnau,
(01:07):
Sephanie Lydacer, Jeff Shane, and myself. Here's a little bit
about how Death Island came up as something we all
thought should be investigated. It actually all started when Courtney
started digging into some articles on koto and brought the
idea to Stephanie and the team at Katie Studios.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Yeah, it was years ago.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It was I believe twenty eighteen when I first even
heard the term Death Island. And then I just started
reading articles and I literally could not believe everything that
was happening and that I'd had zero knowledge of it.
Speaker 6 (01:40):
And the crime scenes were so unique and grizzly, things
that I had never heard before.
Speaker 7 (01:48):
And then they're so scary.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
And the idea of going as a tourist on holiday,
being carefree, letting your guard down, isn't that the goal?
That's a fantasy for everybody, right, We want to go
to PA and just let our worries be put aside.
And then the circumstances of these types of murders to
be so big, and especially here in the United States,
not so wildly covered. There wasn't so so much information,
(02:12):
you know there. Really there was like a wall at
every bend, and frankly, I think until now, I think
you guys have broken that wall down.
Speaker 8 (02:20):
Well, we're really hoping and looking forward to hearing from
more people about their experiences that we haven't been able
to get in touch with or haven't found yet, because
we know that there's more out there.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, and I think, you know, if you're British, you
probably know about this island. You've known about it a
long time because several of the most high profile deaths
are among you know, Brits or Australians or Kiwi's something
you know connected to the sort of Commonwealth countries. But
you know, as Stephanie mentioned, there are deaths of nationals
from all over the world, from Japan, from Russia, Moldovia, Belgium, Argentina.
(02:56):
There are Americans who have had these run ins. There's
an Americans died there as well, and it's not really
been covered in the US. I think the New York
Times wrote an article. I think Time Magazine had an
online article, but like if you scour the American news,
it doesn't really get any coverage in this country. And
so you know, if I think for American listeners, it's
definitely going to be a lot of brand new stuff,
(03:16):
and I think for a lot of other countries who
if you looked at how say somebody like Elise's death
was covered in Belgium, it was part her story and
then it was part backfill with British deaths, right because
there there was only so much you could do on
her story from halfway around the world. And I think,
you know, with a lot of these stories, we tried
not to use the other deaths on the island as
(03:39):
part of other people's stories. And I think if you
look at a lot of what's been written, every print
story there is always backfilled whatever the story was the
main point with everyone else's deaths, and that's what we're
trying not to do. We're trying to sort of look
at each death individually and keep it contained to their deaths.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, and you guys really did do such an excellent job,
you know, with the outreach as mentioned, and you know,
getting people close to the victims, family members, best friends
who want to get the information out, and you know
a lot of people's loved ones did become a footnote,
a one of many, versus having the attention that a
(04:17):
human being who lost their life should have.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
Just to add to that, Yes, being a tourist and
the dream of that is so relatable, but imagine being
a parent or a family member and a loved one
goes on a trip and then the circumstances of their
death is so gruesome, and then to get no information
and have to just pick up your lives and move
on and frankly, you know, and this again is a
(04:43):
testament to Connor and Andrew. I think many family members
or friends of family were, you know, nervous to speak out.
There's all kinds of reasons to be nervous, and because
of your empathy and just your diligence, you know, really
have been able to kind of rally everyone. And the
hope is for more of it.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
To your point, yeah, definitely, I mean, I there are
some of these families have been treated really horribly. I mean,
the fact of the matter is that some of them
have been really treated horribly by Thai investigators, by Thai authorities.
You know, You've had the former mayor of Kotel basically
blaming many of the tourists for their own deaths based
on the way they drink and party and the clothes
(05:22):
they wear. So you have people like that, you know,
who are just bad mouthing the victims. You have Thai
authorities not providing basic documentation to family members and the
way that their bodies are stored or the way autopsies
are you know, done in Thailand, and that causes a.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
But then you also have a lot of media members
around the world that have just dismissed these parents as
crazy as you know, unwilling to accept that their childhood
something stupid. And again, like, I can accept that, but
some some kids do stupid stuff. People die in Mexico,
people die in Arizona, people die all over the world. Right,
But like when people fall off a cliff on New
Year's Eve after they've been put to bed, you know,
(06:01):
that raises some questions. There's something unsettling about almost every
one of these deaths. It just doesn't line up with
a natural cause death. It doesn't mean that it was
a natural cause, but there's something unsettling, and that's what
we see time and time again, and all too often,
I think family members are portrayed as crazy for raising
these questions about the way their loved ones died, and
(06:22):
that I think is the sort of really tragic thing
about this overall story of Kotel is just how awful
the victims, families and friends are treated often.
Speaker 8 (06:31):
Right, It's a lot of institutional gaslighting.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
Just going to say, talk about crazy making. Could you
imagine not getting answers, the language barrier on top of that,
and just the inability to have any sort of flow
of info, I honestly can't imagine in our hearts, you know,
As you said, Andrew, it really does go out to
all of the family and friends of the victims. And
also this is a bit of a cautionary tale. It's
(06:57):
made us all rethink how we even see the world.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
I get it.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
Just the idea of going on a holiday and you know,
New Year's Eve and having a cocktail, it sounds perfect, and.
Speaker 7 (07:08):
We expect, or we hope that we're safe in this world.
Speaker 6 (07:10):
And the truth is, hopefully this is another way of
everyone looking out for each other, because you guys also
are connecting the dots.
Speaker 8 (07:18):
Speaking to that. You know, there's so many things, like
you said, that we take for granted, and one of
them being medical examiners autopsies and the standard that we're
used to and what we expect them to do. And
so this isn't something I would have ever thought about.
If I'm thinking about traveling, am I going someplace where
(07:38):
they're going to know what they're doing or do a
detailed job? You know, I never would have thought about
that before looking into this.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
And these are really sizeable crime scenes, right, so imagine
just the know how that's required and the protocols that
are required in any scenario with crime scenes, some of
them of which you know are really massive, let alone
on an island. Would they don't necessarily have all the
equipment and all of the modern technology, even with best intentions.
(08:06):
Who would think that having a medical examiner with all
of the modern stuff to be able to really process
a case and a crime scene sufficiently is something that
you would check off your tourist guide list.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
You know, in the case of a lease, they reopened
the investigation into the crime scene three or four months later,
it's a jungle.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
It's outside.
Speaker 8 (08:28):
What evidence is going to still be there three or
four months later, where rains all the time, and you're
in a jungle, Like that's.
Speaker 7 (08:34):
Insane, exactly so well said.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
It's imagine getting a proper crime scene three months later
in a cement parking lot, let alone in the throes
of a jungle.
Speaker 7 (08:44):
You're so right.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
And on top of that, with a time zone or
a country between you, these are not.
Speaker 7 (08:50):
Easy necessarily places to get to.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
So even for family members from a distance, just asking
for very basic information not so easy to get. When
this all started, it sounded fishy there seemed like there
was something there, and maybe the spirit of the podcast
initially was to disprove that can you please go out
and prove that this is not Death Island? And that
really ended up not being very much the case at all.
(09:14):
In fact, it's only gotten scarier.
Speaker 8 (09:16):
Yeah, I mean, I know when I was starting, I
had a lot of hesitancy to even put my voice
on it, wondering what's going to happen. You know, it's
a little scary, or not a little, it's very scary totally,
but you know, I think that the possibility to do
some good and bring some light to the situation kind
of outweighed anything that, you know, might make me a
(09:37):
little skeptical.
Speaker 9 (09:43):
When we started development on this, a lot of these
cases had very little to no attention in the media,
and as we've kind of now revisited them for the
making of this podcast, they still have so little you know,
in all these years, there's been so few updates on
so many of these open investigations or what should be
open investigations, And so I wonder, to your point, if
that's the reason why if people are maybe a little
hesitant to go.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
There, Well, I want to read the one that I
just got a couple hours ago, says, hmmm, another person
jumping on the conspiratorial bandwagon of a name made up
by a very small group of social media why question mark,
let me know if you want the truth. There's also
a Twitter handle called kotal hoax and then they were
attacking I guess another somebody did something that they didn't
(10:26):
like it, so maybe you need to do more research
next time you do a video on Koto. And then
they ceesed me on their Like.
Speaker 9 (10:32):
What is the argument though, that people are not being
murdered or disappearing there or that they.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Are no, that it's not they're not connected, that they
you know that there isn't The deaths there are as
natural as the deaths in anywhere else in the world.
That there don't happen at any more frequency in other
places in Thailand or anywhere else that you know, essentially
there is no connection, and to a certain extent, they're right, Like,
I don't think any of us are going to pretend
that there was like one serial killer who's devising a
(10:59):
way to kill all these.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
People and cover it up.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
You know, I don't know if anyone has actually ever
made that argument, but I certainly don't think we've made
that argument. I know we haven't, but I do think
that there is a very strong line of really negligent
police investigation going through all of these deaths, and that's
like the starting point. I think any rational person can
agree with that. Now, what caused the deaths that and
(11:23):
what was the investigation into those deaths? You know, that's
something different. But the fact that there was very little
investigation and continues to be like, that's I think painfully obvious.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So Andrew had used the term institutional gas lighting, and
I think that's it's so up in so many of
these cases. And then even Connor, as you were saying
about the investigations, not just yes, the police work, but
then also the forensics which came up. And I was
just re listening to an episode where autopsies were completely
(11:54):
different don on Kotau and then done on Bangkok.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
That was Chrissy, No, but Ian's was as well. Right,
didn't Ian's family get a different one from the UK?
Speaker 6 (12:04):
Oh?
Speaker 8 (12:05):
Yes, yes they did.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
That's right, Yes, Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So Ian Jacobs, if you guys recall this was back
several episodes he went there on a Scoob diving adventure
very early on. He was maybe the earliest case we
speak about. It occurred in two thousand his death and
he was found at the bottom of a well. His
friend went actually went to Thailand from the UK to
(12:31):
find out, and he found that this well, no one
possibly couldn't have gotten themselves in it. You had to
be doubled up and on Kotao. What the autopsy said
was that he fell into it, he was drunk, and
he drowned. And then what another autopsy said was that
there was no drowning. Grossly varied reports depending upon who's
(12:55):
looking into these deaths, which in and of itself is questionable.
Speaker 6 (13:03):
Even just hearing you talking about it, Courtney, it's a
reminder too of this.
Speaker 7 (13:07):
It's like the scariest of stories.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
You hear stories that seem impossible to imagine, no way
that doesn't happen, that wouldn't happen once, let alone twice,
let alone dozens of times, And even just hearing Courtney
talking about it is a.
Speaker 7 (13:20):
Reminder of how many times, whether it was.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Courtney and Jeff and an elevator telling these stories again
and again and again so many times that it eventually
evolved into what it is now this podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I'm curious when you guys first looked at the article
that Courtney was circulating at the very early days in
twenty eighteen, Like, what were your immediate thoughts when you
saw this the history of Kotal? Could you guys put
together a deck and you know, began pitching it as
as a TV show? And I'm curious, like, what did
you guys thinks people have worked in this industry? You know,
immediately upon seeing.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
This, I mean for me, I just I thought it
was flabbergasting, and the article I read was very It
was a top line and you know, for lack of
a better term, just really gory details.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Is it mafia? Is it cults?
Speaker 8 (14:11):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And then again just that it was all happening in
such a small place, and right at the time that
we started talking about this or learning about it, Kutao
had been put on a watch list for travelers not
to travel there. And I think we just all wanted
to find out more. You guys can speak to it,
but find out what is actually happening behind these tidbits
(14:32):
of details.
Speaker 7 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (14:33):
What spoke to me, and I think what still speaks
to me is just the juxtaposition between the location and
the violence that has occurred there. The idea that somewhere
so beautiful and appealing can also be so dangerous just
was very intriguing and I think made us want to
dig right in.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Do you guys remember when we were working in twenty eighteen,
After you guys contacted me and we started sort of
talking about this as a TV show. The BBC America's
point person hadn't he gone to Kotoo and didn't somebody
die when he was there?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And he totally forgot about it.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
It was a BBC executive.
Speaker 6 (15:25):
Well, we worked with Alex Melendez, who's a colleague and
an extraordinary developer and an executive producer, and he had
shepherded us into the BBC and the executive that we
were speaking to had actually been there and had first
hand experience of, frankly, what you were talking about Connor
scuba diving, and had a first hand account.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Of just what the air was like and how beautiful
it was.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
And the likelihood of that happening is a zero because
so few people ever talked about Death Island. In fact,
the only people that would would be Courtney and Jeff
was one of those cases that when we were in
a car together or flying somewhere or are on a shoot,
it was that something is there, something there.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
But also that executive not only had he been there,
but he had been there for a full moon party,
and someone who was not a close friend but who
he was acquainted with died on Katau, the man that
we're telling the story to.
Speaker 10 (16:22):
It was unbelievable, and I remember he was He sort
of chalked it up when he was there and in
his youth as like, well that just you know, sometimes
that happens, Like you know, we're all there, have a
good time, accidents happened that anyone who visits a place
like Kotel where.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
That could happen. You're like, yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Somebody can die in Cancun, or somebody can die in
San Diego, right like, or Tijuana or you know, Miami Beach, Like,
of course that can happen. But it was only after
we started talking about all of the other deaths that
happened after the death when he was there, that he
was like, oh, maybe that wasn't just a random death.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
And I remember talking to other people.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Who you know, only sort of began to hear the
history of Coot, how after they had been there and
had seen and sort of felt strange things. And again
like we also talked to people who had a wonderful time,
no problems, you know, had a great experience there. I
mean I remember talking to people who raised their families
there and had a wonderful experience. But you talk to
enough people and everybody has a story about some dodgy
(17:18):
interaction on this small island where people waving guns about
or threatening people in the street, or knowing somebody who
saw somebody get killed. Because there's been a couple of
murders in the street, right And it doesn't take very
long to find people who have had these crazy experiences there.
Speaker 9 (17:33):
Also, to your point, Connor, I think there's a lot
of victims shaming that can happen. People put themselves in
a dangerous situation or they you know, they go to
a nightclub, or they go on vacation, and I think
there's no matter what you're doing, you don't deserve to
be murdered or kidnapped or taken in any way, oh.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
One hundred percent, And listen, even if you do put
yourself in a bad situation, like I don't know, jump
off the rocks because you're drunk and you you know,
jump off a cliff and you bash your head in
or something like that. You also deserve to be treated,
you know, with some kindness, right, like to have the
police treat your death in a serious manner, and to
have your family treated in a serious manner, and to
(18:09):
have information related.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
In a you know, in an official, proper channel, right.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
And I think that's one of the other things that's
kind of interesting is I talked to several people, I think,
answer talked to several people who were really frustrated with
their home governments, whether it be the UK government or
the American or consulates you know, from Belgium, who felt
like their home government didn't do anything to put pressure
on the Thai government to get answers. And there's a
whole lot of different reasons for that, and some of
(18:34):
them are good, some of them bad, some of them
are just you know, meaningless. But that's another part of it.
Whereas like tourists go there and they get sort of
crapped on by the local taie authorities and then they
find no help from their own embassies as well.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
Wasn't it the mayor of Katau who said, these girls
don't want to get sexually assaulted here, they shouldn't dress
like that, Yes.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
In a bathing suit on a beach.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
By the way, that was the point he made, and
he also later also had another comment basically saying that
like they come here, they get drunk, they do drugs.
Of course some of them are going to die.
Speaker 6 (19:08):
It's absurd when you actually really dig in and imagine
too it also is it kind of attracts because of
the dancing in the moon and what I'm picturing a
low key rave happening and a yoga retreat and people
that are going to find some wellness and internal peace.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
But Stephanie, that's not really Koteo.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And that's just kind of like they want to have
it both ways, which is they want to blame the
deaths on like the party culture. But the reality is
is like a lot of the people who have died
on Koteo weren't their partying. Alase, wasn't their partying. And
she was literally escaping right like she was fleeing a
cult on another island.
Speaker 6 (19:44):
To add to that, I wasn't even suggesting the party
part as much as it is the yoga retreat of
it all, or looking for something to find higher guidance.
You know, Elise Yes wasn't there for a rape, but
she was there to find some inner peace.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
She was passing through on Hotel, I mean like she
just was randomly on the island, and when she died,
she didn't actually have any real connection to Kotel, and
a lot of the people who died there, I mean,
Tony Lotus was a businessman and wounds up dead on
the island there. Now he was living a pretty party
life from by all accounts as well. But sometimes people
(20:20):
mistake Kosamui and Copunyang with Kotao because they're in the
same area. And while Kotel does have the moon parties,
it's much more a place where people go after the
moon parties and chill and do the vacation and scuba dive.
And a lot of the people who died in Kotoo
were like health fit miss people.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Let's stop here for another break.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
One of the things that just really sticks with me
about this higher conversation about Kotel is the way that
families feel that they've been treated by Thai authorities on
the island. That is the type of thing that when
you put it next to some of the comments that
the one time Thai Prime minister made about tourists not
being safe because they're wearing bikinis, and some of the
(21:19):
things that other local officials have said about you know,
they get drunk and they do stupid things. These are
the types of comments that are just sort of mind
boggling that victims, families, people who've lost loved ones on
Kotel that they would even have to deal with these
types of comments.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Oh, yeah, this is really tragic and always with us.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I I was gonna mention that one of one instants
of really just mistreatment of victims' families is in the
case of Hannah Witherage, and when her family was reaching
out to get information from the Thai government, they were
actually told by an official. When her family said, oh,
we are grieving, we can't get over this, they were
(21:58):
told to go ahead and have another one, as in,
go have another baby and replace this daughter. And that's
just something that's always stuck with.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
All of us.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
This is the feedback you're getting about your daughter's death.
That's not to cut you off, but it even just
infuriating even just hearing about it.
Speaker 8 (22:16):
Well, and when that's the information you get, I mean,
it's no wonder people are upset with their consulates or embassies,
you know, for not doing more. I mean, that's that
straight up bullshit to hear something like that period the end.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
My hope is that one of these cases that somebody
comes forward with some type of information that gives one
of the families, you know, some peace of mind. And
maybe it's that their child died of natural causes, or
maybe you know, they were with them and they saw
they saw them do something. Or maybe it's that the
two Burmese boys who are in prison in jail for
(22:49):
Hannah and David's deaths, you know that there's some evidence
that you know, either proves that they did do it
or some evidence that proves they didn't do it. Like
I think clarity would be on one of these on
several of these cases would be a welcome change, because
I think everything about this island and everything about the
way authorities handle death there is really murky.
Speaker 8 (23:09):
I mean, for me, my biggest hope would be that
we shed enough light on this that it forces some
change and some accountability. So that we can help prevent
another family from going through the same horrible experience. You
know that all of these other families have been going
through for the last you know, twenty two plus years.
People don't deserve to be treated like that when they
(23:31):
lose somebody, And obviously these people shouldn't be dying in
the first place. But if they're going to, you know,
let's handle it with some care and respect and some dignity.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I have similar hopes as what you said, and that
is for more people to know about it. First of all,
just what has happened and God forbid, continues to happened
on Katau so at least people can be making informed
choices when going there, because so many of the people
we spoke to said, I just had no idea that
(24:01):
this was happening, and maybe someone might rethink a choice. Also,
if there's any information and clarity that can come to
any of these parents, that would be the largest win.
Or that if someone comes out and you know, they're
brought from not knowing to having closure. As you said,
that's why at the end of every episode we ask people,
if you have any information, shoot us an email and
(24:23):
we try and get it into the right hands.
Speaker 9 (24:25):
I hope would be that we can disprove any mistruths
or myths, you know, like Connor said, you know, we
don't necessarily think it's one serial killer. And I think
there's a lot of hardworking, good people on the island
and so just kind of set their record straight.
Speaker 6 (24:39):
I would say it's just a general higher purpose for
all of us here at KT is really just to
at the bare minimum shed light on something and hopefully
let that guide us from there, and and to do
a full three sixty on the story as opposed to
have it have a point of view going in. I
think you guys do such a great job of keeping
(25:01):
any of your predispositions aside. You start looking into something
and you don't know where it's going to lead.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
If you have any information about any of the cases
discussed this season, please contact us at producers at ktdash
studios dot com For more information and relevant photos. Follow
us on Instagram at kt Underscore Studios. Death Island is
produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Jeff Shane,
(25:32):
Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Chistio and me Courtney Armstrong Editing and
sound design by Jeff Tooi music by vanicor Music. Death
Island is a production of iHeartRadio and Kat Studios. For
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From the studio who brought you the number one podcast,
the piked in Massacre. This is Death Island.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Just a few miles off the Thailand coast. The island
of Kotoo looks like a postcard.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I mean, it's almost like if you were going to
imagine a paradise island, they'll draw a picture of one.
That's what kota looks like.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Young tourists from all over the world visit the pristine
beaches and crystal clear water.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
Right underneath the surface lies something sinister.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
A dark cloud has come over the island and cast
its shadow death, history and danger.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
In the last twenty years, dozens of tourists have died
mysteriously on the island.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
One thing is certain in this beautiful place, no coast
is clear. This is Death Island, Episode twelve. This is
a roundtable conversation between our team, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnau,
(01:07):
Sephanie Lydacer, Jeff Shane, and myself. Here's a little bit
about how Death Island came up as something we all
thought should be investigated. It actually all started when Courtney
started digging into some articles on koto and brought the
idea to Stephanie and the team at Katie Studios.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
Yeah, it was years ago.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It was I believe twenty eighteen when I first even
heard the term Death Island. And then I just started
reading articles and I literally could not believe everything that
was happening and that I'd had zero knowledge of it.
Speaker 6 (01:40):
And the crime scenes were so unique and grizzly, things
that I had never heard before.
Speaker 7 (01:48):
And then they're so scary.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
And the idea of going as a tourist on holiday,
being carefree, letting your guard down, isn't that the goal?
That's a fantasy for everybody, right, We want to go
to PA and just let our worries be put aside.
And then the circumstances of these types of murders to
be so big, and especially here in the United States,
not so wildly covered. There wasn't so so much information,
(02:12):
you know there. Really there was like a wall at
every bend, and frankly, I think until now, I think
you guys have broken that wall down.
Speaker 8 (02:20):
Well, we're really hoping and looking forward to hearing from
more people about their experiences that we haven't been able
to get in touch with or haven't found yet, because
we know that there's more out there.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, and I think, you know, if you're British, you
probably know about this island. You've known about it a
long time because several of the most high profile deaths
are among you know, Brits or Australians or Kiwi's something
you know connected to the sort of Commonwealth countries. But
you know, as Stephanie mentioned, there are deaths of nationals
from all over the world, from Japan, from Russia, Moldovia, Belgium, Argentina.
(02:56):
There are Americans who have had these run ins. There's
an Americans died there as well, and it's not really
been covered in the US. I think the New York
Times wrote an article. I think Time Magazine had an
online article, but like if you scour the American news,
it doesn't really get any coverage in this country. And
so you know, if I think for American listeners, it's
definitely going to be a lot of brand new stuff,
(03:16):
and I think for a lot of other countries who
if you looked at how say somebody like Elise's death
was covered in Belgium, it was part her story and
then it was part backfill with British deaths, right because
there there was only so much you could do on
her story from halfway around the world. And I think,
you know, with a lot of these stories, we tried
not to use the other deaths on the island as
(03:39):
part of other people's stories. And I think if you
look at a lot of what's been written, every print
story there is always backfilled whatever the story was the
main point with everyone else's deaths, and that's what we're
trying not to do. We're trying to sort of look
at each death individually and keep it contained to their deaths.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, and you guys really did do such an excellent job,
you know, with the outreach as mentioned, and you know,
getting people close to the victims, family members, best friends
who want to get the information out, and you know
a lot of people's loved ones did become a footnote,
a one of many, versus having the attention that a
(04:17):
human being who lost their life should have.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
Just to add to that, Yes, being a tourist and
the dream of that is so relatable, but imagine being
a parent or a family member and a loved one
goes on a trip and then the circumstances of their
death is so gruesome, and then to get no information
and have to just pick up your lives and move
on and frankly, you know, and this again is a
(04:43):
testament to Connor and Andrew. I think many family members
or friends of family were, you know, nervous to speak out.
There's all kinds of reasons to be nervous, and because
of your empathy and just your diligence, you know, really
have been able to kind of rally everyone. And the
hope is for more of it.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
To your point, yeah, definitely, I mean, I there are
some of these families have been treated really horribly. I mean,
the fact of the matter is that some of them
have been really treated horribly by Thai investigators, by Thai authorities.
You know, You've had the former mayor of Kotel basically
blaming many of the tourists for their own deaths based
on the way they drink and party and the clothes
(05:22):
they wear. So you have people like that, you know,
who are just bad mouthing the victims. You have Thai
authorities not providing basic documentation to family members and the
way that their bodies are stored or the way autopsies
are you know, done in Thailand, and that causes a.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
But then you also have a lot of media members
around the world that have just dismissed these parents as
crazy as you know, unwilling to accept that their childhood
something stupid. And again, like, I can accept that, but
some some kids do stupid stuff. People die in Mexico,
people die in Arizona, people die all over the world. Right,
But like when people fall off a cliff on New
Year's Eve after they've been put to bed, you know,
(06:01):
that raises some questions. There's something unsettling about almost every
one of these deaths. It just doesn't line up with
a natural cause death. It doesn't mean that it was
a natural cause, but there's something unsettling, and that's what
we see time and time again, and all too often,
I think family members are portrayed as crazy for raising
these questions about the way their loved ones died, and
(06:22):
that I think is the sort of really tragic thing
about this overall story of Kotel is just how awful
the victims, families and friends are treated often.
Speaker 8 (06:31):
Right, It's a lot of institutional gaslighting.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
Just going to say, talk about crazy making. Could you
imagine not getting answers, the language barrier on top of that,
and just the inability to have any sort of flow
of info, I honestly can't imagine in our hearts, you know,
As you said, Andrew, it really does go out to
all of the family and friends of the victims. And
also this is a bit of a cautionary tale. It's
(06:57):
made us all rethink how we even see the world.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
I get it.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
Just the idea of going on a holiday and you know,
New Year's Eve and having a cocktail, it sounds perfect, and.
Speaker 7 (07:08):
We expect, or we hope that we're safe in this world.
Speaker 6 (07:10):
And the truth is, hopefully this is another way of
everyone looking out for each other, because you guys also
are connecting the dots.
Speaker 8 (07:18):
Speaking to that. You know, there's so many things, like
you said, that we take for granted, and one of
them being medical examiners autopsies and the standard that we're
used to and what we expect them to do. And
so this isn't something I would have ever thought about.
If I'm thinking about traveling, am I going someplace where
(07:38):
they're going to know what they're doing or do a
detailed job? You know, I never would have thought about
that before looking into this.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
And these are really sizeable crime scenes, right, so imagine
just the know how that's required and the protocols that
are required in any scenario with crime scenes, some of
them of which you know are really massive, let alone
on an island. Would they don't necessarily have all the
equipment and all of the modern technology, even with best intentions.
(08:06):
Who would think that having a medical examiner with all
of the modern stuff to be able to really process
a case and a crime scene sufficiently is something that
you would check off your tourist guide list.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
You know, in the case of a lease, they reopened
the investigation into the crime scene three or four months later,
it's a jungle.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
It's outside.
Speaker 8 (08:28):
What evidence is going to still be there three or
four months later, where rains all the time, and you're
in a jungle, Like that's.
Speaker 7 (08:34):
Insane, exactly so well said.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
It's imagine getting a proper crime scene three months later
in a cement parking lot, let alone in the throes
of a jungle.
Speaker 7 (08:44):
You're so right.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
And on top of that, with a time zone or
a country between you, these are not.
Speaker 7 (08:50):
Easy necessarily places to get to.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
So even for family members from a distance, just asking
for very basic information not so easy to get. When
this all started, it sounded fishy there seemed like there
was something there, and maybe the spirit of the podcast
initially was to disprove that can you please go out
and prove that this is not Death Island? And that
really ended up not being very much the case at all.
(09:14):
In fact, it's only gotten scarier.
Speaker 8 (09:16):
Yeah, I mean, I know when I was starting, I
had a lot of hesitancy to even put my voice
on it, wondering what's going to happen. You know, it's
a little scary, or not a little, it's very scary totally,
but you know, I think that the possibility to do
some good and bring some light to the situation kind
of outweighed anything that, you know, might make me a
(09:37):
little skeptical.
Speaker 9 (09:43):
When we started development on this, a lot of these
cases had very little to no attention in the media,
and as we've kind of now revisited them for the
making of this podcast, they still have so little you know,
in all these years, there's been so few updates on
so many of these open investigations or what should be
open investigations, And so I wonder, to your point, if
that's the reason why if people are maybe a little
hesitant to go.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
There, Well, I want to read the one that I
just got a couple hours ago, says, hmmm, another person
jumping on the conspiratorial bandwagon of a name made up
by a very small group of social media why question mark,
let me know if you want the truth. There's also
a Twitter handle called kotal hoax and then they were
attacking I guess another somebody did something that they didn't
(10:26):
like it, so maybe you need to do more research
next time you do a video on Koto. And then
they ceesed me on their Like.
Speaker 9 (10:32):
What is the argument though, that people are not being
murdered or disappearing there or that they.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Are no, that it's not they're not connected, that they
you know that there isn't The deaths there are as
natural as the deaths in anywhere else in the world.
That there don't happen at any more frequency in other
places in Thailand or anywhere else that you know, essentially
there is no connection, and to a certain extent, they're right, Like,
I don't think any of us are going to pretend
that there was like one serial killer who's devising a
(10:59):
way to kill all these.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
People and cover it up.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
You know, I don't know if anyone has actually ever
made that argument, but I certainly don't think we've made
that argument. I know we haven't, but I do think
that there is a very strong line of really negligent
police investigation going through all of these deaths, and that's
like the starting point. I think any rational person can
agree with that. Now, what caused the deaths that and
(11:23):
what was the investigation into those deaths? You know, that's
something different. But the fact that there was very little
investigation and continues to be like, that's I think painfully obvious.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So Andrew had used the term institutional gas lighting, and
I think that's it's so up in so many of
these cases. And then even Connor, as you were saying
about the investigations, not just yes, the police work, but
then also the forensics which came up. And I was
just re listening to an episode where autopsies were completely
(11:54):
different don on Kotau and then done on Bangkok.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
That was Chrissy, No, but Ian's was as well. Right,
didn't Ian's family get a different one from the UK?
Speaker 6 (12:04):
Oh?
Speaker 8 (12:05):
Yes, yes they did.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
That's right, Yes, Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So Ian Jacobs, if you guys recall this was back
several episodes he went there on a Scoob diving adventure
very early on. He was maybe the earliest case we
speak about. It occurred in two thousand his death and
he was found at the bottom of a well. His
friend went actually went to Thailand from the UK to
(12:31):
find out, and he found that this well, no one
possibly couldn't have gotten themselves in it. You had to
be doubled up and on Kotao. What the autopsy said
was that he fell into it, he was drunk, and
he drowned. And then what another autopsy said was that
there was no drowning. Grossly varied reports depending upon who's
(12:55):
looking into these deaths, which in and of itself is questionable.
Speaker 6 (13:03):
Even just hearing you talking about it, Courtney, it's a
reminder too of this.
Speaker 7 (13:07):
It's like the scariest of stories.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
You hear stories that seem impossible to imagine, no way
that doesn't happen, that wouldn't happen once, let alone twice,
let alone dozens of times, And even just hearing Courtney
talking about it is a.
Speaker 7 (13:20):
Reminder of how many times, whether it was.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Courtney and Jeff and an elevator telling these stories again
and again and again so many times that it eventually
evolved into what it is now this podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I'm curious when you guys first looked at the article
that Courtney was circulating at the very early days in
twenty eighteen, Like, what were your immediate thoughts when you
saw this the history of Kotal? Could you guys put
together a deck and you know, began pitching it as
as a TV show? And I'm curious, like, what did
you guys thinks people have worked in this industry? You know,
immediately upon seeing.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
This, I mean for me, I just I thought it
was flabbergasting, and the article I read was very It
was a top line and you know, for lack of
a better term, just really gory details.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Is it mafia? Is it cults?
Speaker 8 (14:11):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And then again just that it was all happening in
such a small place, and right at the time that
we started talking about this or learning about it, Kutao
had been put on a watch list for travelers not
to travel there. And I think we just all wanted
to find out more. You guys can speak to it,
but find out what is actually happening behind these tidbits
(14:32):
of details.
Speaker 7 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (14:33):
What spoke to me, and I think what still speaks
to me is just the juxtaposition between the location and
the violence that has occurred there. The idea that somewhere
so beautiful and appealing can also be so dangerous just
was very intriguing and I think made us want to
dig right in.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Do you guys remember when we were working in twenty eighteen,
After you guys contacted me and we started sort of
talking about this as a TV show. The BBC America's
point person hadn't he gone to Kotoo and didn't somebody
die when he was there?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And he totally forgot about it.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
It was a BBC executive.
Speaker 6 (15:25):
Well, we worked with Alex Melendez, who's a colleague and
an extraordinary developer and an executive producer, and he had
shepherded us into the BBC and the executive that we
were speaking to had actually been there and had first
hand experience of, frankly, what you were talking about Connor
scuba diving, and had a first hand account.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Of just what the air was like and how beautiful
it was.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
And the likelihood of that happening is a zero because
so few people ever talked about Death Island. In fact,
the only people that would would be Courtney and Jeff
was one of those cases that when we were in
a car together or flying somewhere or are on a shoot,
it was that something is there, something there.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
But also that executive not only had he been there,
but he had been there for a full moon party,
and someone who was not a close friend but who
he was acquainted with died on Katau, the man that
we're telling the story to.
Speaker 10 (16:22):
It was unbelievable, and I remember he was He sort
of chalked it up when he was there and in
his youth as like, well that just you know, sometimes
that happens, Like you know, we're all there, have a
good time, accidents happened that anyone who visits a place
like Kotel where.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
That could happen. You're like, yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Somebody can die in Cancun, or somebody can die in
San Diego, right like, or Tijuana or you know, Miami Beach, Like,
of course that can happen. But it was only after
we started talking about all of the other deaths that
happened after the death when he was there, that he
was like, oh, maybe that wasn't just a random death.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
And I remember talking to other people.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Who you know, only sort of began to hear the
history of Coot, how after they had been there and
had seen and sort of felt strange things. And again
like we also talked to people who had a wonderful time,
no problems, you know, had a great experience there. I
mean I remember talking to people who raised their families
there and had a wonderful experience. But you talk to
enough people and everybody has a story about some dodgy
(17:18):
interaction on this small island where people waving guns about
or threatening people in the street, or knowing somebody who
saw somebody get killed. Because there's been a couple of
murders in the street, right And it doesn't take very
long to find people who have had these crazy experiences there.
Speaker 9 (17:33):
Also, to your point, Connor, I think there's a lot
of victims shaming that can happen. People put themselves in
a dangerous situation or they you know, they go to
a nightclub, or they go on vacation, and I think
there's no matter what you're doing, you don't deserve to
be murdered or kidnapped or taken in any way, oh.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
One hundred percent, And listen, even if you do put
yourself in a bad situation, like I don't know, jump
off the rocks because you're drunk and you you know,
jump off a cliff and you bash your head in
or something like that. You also deserve to be treated,
you know, with some kindness, right, like to have the
police treat your death in a serious manner, and to
have your family treated in a serious manner, and to
(18:09):
have information related.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
In a you know, in an official, proper channel, right.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
And I think that's one of the other things that's
kind of interesting is I talked to several people, I think,
answer talked to several people who were really frustrated with
their home governments, whether it be the UK government or
the American or consulates you know, from Belgium, who felt
like their home government didn't do anything to put pressure
on the Thai government to get answers. And there's a
whole lot of different reasons for that, and some of
(18:34):
them are good, some of them bad, some of them
are just you know, meaningless. But that's another part of it.
Whereas like tourists go there and they get sort of
crapped on by the local taie authorities and then they
find no help from their own embassies as well.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
Wasn't it the mayor of Katau who said, these girls
don't want to get sexually assaulted here, they shouldn't dress
like that, Yes.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
In a bathing suit on a beach.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
By the way, that was the point he made, and
he also later also had another comment basically saying that
like they come here, they get drunk, they do drugs.
Of course some of them are going to die.
Speaker 6 (19:08):
It's absurd when you actually really dig in and imagine
too it also is it kind of attracts because of
the dancing in the moon and what I'm picturing a
low key rave happening and a yoga retreat and people
that are going to find some wellness and internal peace.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
But Stephanie, that's not really Koteo.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And that's just kind of like they want to have
it both ways, which is they want to blame the
deaths on like the party culture. But the reality is
is like a lot of the people who have died
on Koteo weren't their partying. Alase, wasn't their partying. And
she was literally escaping right like she was fleeing a
cult on another island.
Speaker 6 (19:44):
To add to that, I wasn't even suggesting the party
part as much as it is the yoga retreat of
it all, or looking for something to find higher guidance.
You know, Elise Yes wasn't there for a rape, but
she was there to find some inner peace.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
She was passing through on Hotel, I mean like she
just was randomly on the island, and when she died,
she didn't actually have any real connection to Kotel, and
a lot of the people who died there, I mean,
Tony Lotus was a businessman and wounds up dead on
the island there. Now he was living a pretty party
life from by all accounts as well. But sometimes people
(20:20):
mistake Kosamui and Copunyang with Kotao because they're in the
same area. And while Kotel does have the moon parties,
it's much more a place where people go after the
moon parties and chill and do the vacation and scuba dive.
And a lot of the people who died in Kotoo
were like health fit miss people.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Let's stop here for another break.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
One of the things that just really sticks with me
about this higher conversation about Kotel is the way that
families feel that they've been treated by Thai authorities on
the island. That is the type of thing that when
you put it next to some of the comments that
the one time Thai Prime minister made about tourists not
being safe because they're wearing bikinis, and some of the
(21:19):
things that other local officials have said about you know,
they get drunk and they do stupid things. These are
the types of comments that are just sort of mind
boggling that victims, families, people who've lost loved ones on
Kotel that they would even have to deal with these
types of comments.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Oh, yeah, this is really tragic and always with us.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I I was gonna mention that one of one instants
of really just mistreatment of victims' families is in the
case of Hannah Witherage, and when her family was reaching
out to get information from the Thai government, they were
actually told by an official. When her family said, oh,
we are grieving, we can't get over this, they were
(21:58):
told to go ahead and have another one, as in,
go have another baby and replace this daughter. And that's
just something that's always stuck with.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
All of us.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
This is the feedback you're getting about your daughter's death.
That's not to cut you off, but it even just
infuriating even just hearing about it.
Speaker 8 (22:16):
Well, and when that's the information you get, I mean,
it's no wonder people are upset with their consulates or embassies,
you know, for not doing more. I mean, that's that
straight up bullshit to hear something like that period the end.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
My hope is that one of these cases that somebody
comes forward with some type of information that gives one
of the families, you know, some peace of mind. And
maybe it's that their child died of natural causes, or
maybe you know, they were with them and they saw
they saw them do something. Or maybe it's that the
two Burmese boys who are in prison in jail for
(22:49):
Hannah and David's deaths, you know that there's some evidence
that you know, either proves that they did do it
or some evidence that proves they didn't do it. Like
I think clarity would be on one of these on
several of these cases would be a welcome change, because
I think everything about this island and everything about the
way authorities handle death there is really murky.
Speaker 8 (23:09):
I mean, for me, my biggest hope would be that
we shed enough light on this that it forces some
change and some accountability. So that we can help prevent
another family from going through the same horrible experience. You
know that all of these other families have been going
through for the last you know, twenty two plus years.
People don't deserve to be treated like that when they
(23:31):
lose somebody, And obviously these people shouldn't be dying in
the first place. But if they're going to, you know,
let's handle it with some care and respect and some dignity.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I have similar hopes as what you said, and that
is for more people to know about it. First of all,
just what has happened and God forbid, continues to happened
on Katau so at least people can be making informed
choices when going there, because so many of the people
we spoke to said, I just had no idea that
(24:01):
this was happening, and maybe someone might rethink a choice. Also,
if there's any information and clarity that can come to
any of these parents, that would be the largest win.
Or that if someone comes out and you know, they're
brought from not knowing to having closure. As you said,
that's why at the end of every episode we ask people,
if you have any information, shoot us an email and
(24:23):
we try and get it into the right hands.
Speaker 9 (24:25):
I hope would be that we can disprove any mistruths
or myths, you know, like Connor said, you know, we
don't necessarily think it's one serial killer. And I think
there's a lot of hardworking, good people on the island
and so just kind of set their record straight.
Speaker 6 (24:39):
I would say it's just a general higher purpose for
all of us here at KT is really just to
at the bare minimum shed light on something and hopefully
let that guide us from there, and and to do
a full three sixty on the story as opposed to
have it have a point of view going in. I
think you guys do such a great job of keeping
(25:01):
any of your predispositions aside. You start looking into something
and you don't know where it's going to lead.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
If you have any information about any of the cases
discussed this season, please contact us at producers at ktdash
studios dot com For more information and relevant photos. Follow
us on Instagram at kt Underscore Studios. Death Island is
produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Jeff Shane,
(25:32):
Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Chistio and me Courtney Armstrong Editing and
sound design by Jeff Tooi music by vanicor Music. Death
Island is a production of iHeartRadio and Kat Studios. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Conor Powell
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!