May 17, 2023 • 30 mins
This episode picks up at the trial of the two Burmese migrant workers who have been charged in the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge. Three judges announce the verdict on Christmas Eve 2015, and we look into events that led to that point as well as what's going on today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah
Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only
just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the
ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the
bar together around one am. It was the last time
either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning,
(00:25):
on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies.
David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on
the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a
garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy
(00:45):
revealed that David had scratches on his back and water
in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered
in wounds, bruising and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage
and question about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome
to Death Island a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio
(01:10):
episode nine, The Case against way Po and Zouln.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at kat Studios, with
Stephanie Lydecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
After three months of deliberations, the court adjourned, the prosecution
asked for the death penalty, and the fate of Zouln
and Waypo rests with the three judges. Mala, the audio
(01:47):
you just heard was from the documentary Murder in Paradise.
It's one of the mothers standing on the courtroom step saying,
please release my son. Please, My son did not do this.
The judges announced the verdict. ZiU Lyn and Wapo are
found guilty. They're sentenced the death penalty. In our years
(02:10):
of following this case, we've encountered many people who question
of the Thai government convicted the right people for the crime.
We should note that the family of David Miller firmly
believes justice was done based on the evidence presented at
the trial. We should also note that any and all
Tavichian family members have been cleared by Thai officials of
any connection to this crime.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Here's connor So especially what happened in this case is
that the Tavichian family are one of the big mafia
families on this island. They own one of the three
or four areas of this island, and they own Sorry Beach,
which is where all the parties and the hotels generally are.
The very first day, the police fingered Tavichian as the
(02:52):
guy who either did the murder or oversaw the murder.
That didn't land particularly well with Koto's rolling family and
the police that were on the island, and so they
immediately started looking at other people. But the first twenty
four hours the police statements pointed a finger at Tavichian,
but being their place on the island in Thai politics,
they started a massive campaign to take DNA from Burmese
(03:16):
migrants who were on the island working. There were three
Burmese boys who were in the area self and middly
playing the guitar on the beach and drinking. They arrested
all three. One of them worked for the Tuwichian family.
He's released. The other two are in the area. They
get fingered as the guys who killed Hannah and David.
The police drop all reference to Tavichian as the main suspect,
(03:38):
and the police officer who made that announcement is discharged
and basically sent away.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
If Wapo and zal Len are innocent, then who might
be responsible for the deaths of David Miller and Hannah
with Rich. If you remember, there was the quote running
Man video. CSILA is the Facebook group that David A
runs and some of the members had an interesting takeaway
from that video when compared to the video of the
three Burmese on the motorcycle. There are some members of
(04:09):
CSILA who observed that the three men are wearing dark
pants in the video, while the Running Man was captured
on CCTV wearing light colored shorts. Also, there were reports
that David Miller got into an altercation with someone at
the Acbar. Another report noted that Hannah got into an
incident with an employee at the Acbar. During the trial,
(04:30):
there was some more information provided about this. Here's veteran
international journalist Sarah Yun who lived on Thailand for eight years.
She reported on the arrest and subsequent trial of the
Burmese immigrants.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
The nephew of the man who owned the bar where
these two young people were last seen before their deaths.
He was implicated in their deaths by certain people I
understand on the island. I don't know who, but I
know that they'd spoken to the investigating A officers and
suggested that this man may have been involved, and we
(05:03):
got some hearsay information that he and Hannah had had
some level of a relationship, whether it was simply they
liked each other and had been talking or more than that.
And so I was told that he was in the
AC Bar where they were last seen at two o'clock
in the morning on that evening. The police in court
said that they knew there had been a fight in
(05:26):
the AC Bar on the night that Hannah and David
were murdered, and when asked if they had followed up
this information that there had been a fight, they stared
straight back at the lead judge and said, no, we
never followed it up, And he said, why did you
not follow it up, and the police officer replied, we
didn't think it was relevant.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Namsatovichian, who has been formally cleared of all charges, claims
he was in Bangkok at University all weekend and was
not on Cataw the night of Hannah and David's murder.
Tavichian provided a video that shows whom on CCTV cameras
in Bangkok at the time, but there are some who
suggest that there are jumps in the footage and that
(06:09):
the time stamp appears to be altered. One way to
verify I Tavichian was on the island the night of
Hannan David's murder is to check the CCTV cameras at
the dark on Katao.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
There are three hundred CCTV cameras on Kotail. They claim
two hundred were not working. And when asked if they'd
looked at the camera at the dock where the boats
come in and the early morning boat goes out with
five am, which was about two hours after that Hanrh
and David were said to have been murdered and the
potential first speedboat could have gone to Bangkok with the
nephew of the headman, And they said, we never looked
(06:43):
at those cameras, and we don't think that's relevant either.
You know, he was back in Bangkok by nine am,
but it isn't impossible to get a speedboat to Bangkok
by nine am. As the Thai reporters were aware.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
During the very brief period that Vician was considered a suspect,
the Tie police conducted a DNA test.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
On him, and so they did a DNA test on
television of this young man who was only about twenty
four and the police senior investigating officer told the court
that that DNA report had never been released to him
and he had never received anything from the DNA testing
of that young man.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
He said this in court.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yes, in court they said did you test the nephew
of the headman on the island, And the senior police
investigating officer said yes, I did. And then they said okay,
and what were the results? And he said, I never
received it. I was told I would receive a report,
but I never did. And so the judge said to him, well,
(07:46):
did you chase it up? You know, did you try
and elicit yourself? And he said no, And so then
they moved on and the defense did not stand up
and say what do you mean? No, no, Why did
you not do this when it was done on television too?
You know, there's a typee we're asking questions.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Attorney in Yarwood has been following the case
for years. He provides his opinion on the DNA test
(08:26):
that was conducted on Davichian.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Same with Somyach, who was the chief of police from
the first October twenty fourteen, which was the time when
the two young Burmese guys were arrested until twelve months later.
And in that twelve month period, he was going out
of his way to scapegoat the two Burmese guys. He
went to the extraordinary length of appearing in a press
(08:51):
conference with non Sod who's his son, and a warrock
Pan who's the headman. But you know, the chief of
police turns up in a press conference with them and
they do a bit of theater whereby Non Sood gives
a cheek swab or a bugal swab for a DNA test,
but no one else can see what the result of
that test is. There's nothing scientific about it. There's no transparency.
(09:13):
But he says, look, you know, we can prove that
he was not one of the rapists, and if he
wasn't one of the rapists, he wasn't one of the murderers.
I just thought that the convictions of the two Burmese
guys were completely outrageous. It was abundantly clear to me
that they were convicted on completely bogus DNA evidence. It
should never ever have been accepted by the judges.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Scholar David Struckfast estimated and in a given year, the
conviction rate and high courts for certain charges was ninety
eight percent.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
So basically, Thai courts really just act like rubber stamps,
and quite often we find that the judges don't really
understand the evidence. They don't really care about the evidence.
They've already made up their minds where it's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Here again. Connor speaking with Sarah Yun.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
I'm curious when the conviction came down, the ruling of guilty,
what went through your mind.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I got the information and I was angry. And it
isn't an attachment like some people say, like doctors, you
shouldn't get to attach to the story you're covering. It
wasn't attachment. It was injustice, justice, enormous sense of injustice
that this is not right, something is not right. I
was so angry that people could sit in court and
(10:33):
say these outrageous things that made it so clear that
what they claimed had happened was not the case, and
then that the court could convict. I remember my family
saying to me, you know, oh, come on, you know
that there's no justice in this world. You know that's normal,
And it was like, but it was bare faced injustice
it was so bare faced.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
After the verdict was announced, David Miller's brother give a
statement to the press.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Yes, we believe that after a difficult start, the Royal
type Police conducted a methodical and thorough investigation, having listened
carefully to all the evidence, and despite what their lawyers say,
it is our opinion that the evidence against Wapo and
Zorlin is absolutely overwhelming. They raped to satisfy their selfish
(11:25):
desires and murdered to cover up that fact. They have
shown no remorse during the trial.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
Again, Ian your word, Ian Miller and Sue Miller. Appearance
of David Miller. They and their surviving son, Michael. You know,
they came out on the steps of the Samui Provincial
Court after the two Burmese guys were convicted of murder,
and Michael delivered a well it It was a very
(11:54):
sort of powerful speech and he was actually heavily praising
the world type police for their investigation.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
And mister Miller has worked internationally for all his career,
so I know that he knew what was being said
was the same as what I was hearing. And at
one point he said to me, I just want someone
to be guilty.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Wait on hold on, you had a conversation with mister Miller.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
We did have a conversation. I went to the end
of the balcony with him outside the courtroom and I said, look,
you heard what I've heard. You must understand that the
case does not support the conviction of these two boys.
I'm not saying they're not guilty. I don't know, but
this case does not support the conviction.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I'm curious. Have there been other cases in Thailand where
Burmese workers were sort of scapegoaded and blamed for something,
whether it's murder, rape, theft, whatever. Is that something that
has happened in Thailand before?
Speaker 7 (12:48):
Yes, it happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Phil Robertson is the director of Human Rights Watch Asia.
Speaker 8 (12:58):
There's always a scapegoat of migrant workers. There's been cases
where migrant workers were blamed for rapes of Thai women
when it turned out that, in fact, you know, the
son of a politician was doing it, a Thai politician.
You know, all these things are happening, they're really rapidly
hushed up. The migrant workers themselves. If they're hauled into court,
oftentimes they don't have access to proceedings in their own language.
Speaker 7 (13:21):
So if they don't speak Thai or don't understand enough Thai,
they really don't know what's going on. Oftentimes they don't
have access to legal services, they don't know what their
rights are.
Speaker 8 (13:32):
So you know, it is not much justice for migrant
workers in Thailand. That's the reality of it.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Waypo and Zelin then appealed the verdict.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
What happened was that there was an appeal and the
appeal went before the same judges who settle on the
original trial, so of course they came up with the
same result. And then it was appealed further to the
Supreme Court of Thai. Lang whig is they took court.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
The Supreme Court of Thailand upheld the verdict of the
lower courts. Author and journalist sub Buchanan lived on Thailand
for years and wrote the book The Curse of the Turtle,
The true story of Thailand's backpacker murders.
Speaker 9 (14:12):
You were allowed to appeals.
Speaker 10 (14:13):
They had their first appeal to Regionate, which is basically
the same crew that gave them the death penalty in
the first place. We held out some hope for the
Supreme Court appeal in Bangkok because they have been known
to exonerate people who lost their first appeal, but they
lost that one, then their last option was to appeal
to the king for a pardon, which they did and
he never got back to them again.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Sarah Yun, there are.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
A few cases in your journalistic life that really really
get to you and continue to affect you and upset
you for years to come. Obviously disasters and bombings and
things they do that that this case really really really
upset me and made me feel guilty because my son
(14:57):
was the same age as Wi Piones all In and
what was said in court was so clear of a
failed investigation or a deliberately failed investigation. And these two
boys are still sitting in prison. And I worry about
two things. One thing I worry is that the international
press jumped on it so quickly that we made them
(15:18):
too hot to handle. So we made it impossible for
them to treat these two boys as escapegoat, which I
believe they were, and then just like let them go
off back to Burma and keep quiet and don't say anything.
And I fear that we made it too well known
for them to do that, and I know that they
have done that in the past by letting prisoners go
back to Burma and two. I know that if my
(15:38):
son had been in that situation and had been put
in that prison, I'd raised the prison to the ground
personally to get them out. And I don't feel like
I've done enough for those two young men. You know,
their lives are ruined, and if they are innocent, then
I feel an enormous personal guilt, more for them than
any other trial I've ever covered or any other place
I've ever been. I think that it would be so
(16:01):
so good if there was a possibility of finding out
who is behind these events on Kotau, and if whatever
was found out could possibly free these two men if
they're innocent. But I believe that the deception goes higher
than just the police force. I believe it goes much
much higher because escape that was required and these two
(16:23):
were chosen. But every day, every day I think about them,
and every day I think I should have done more.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
In twenty twenty, the Royal tai King commuted Wapo and
Zaln's death sentences to life in prison.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Zelen and Wapo are in prison. Their sentence has been
commuted from death to life.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Is there any appeals left? Are they done? Are they
just sort of their left for the.
Speaker 9 (16:50):
Rest of their lives. They're done. There's no legal avenue now.
Speaker 10 (16:53):
The only option is to prove someone else did it,
and even then I don't know how you'd reopen the case.
Speaker 9 (16:58):
It's finished. It's done.
Speaker 10 (16:59):
They're in prison for the their lives unless the King
gives them more amnesties.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
How are they doing right now? I know you occasionally
change letter or exchange letters with them. What is their
situation right now?
Speaker 10 (17:09):
I'm in touch with zill In regularly, and every second
Sunday I write a very long letter to him, and
he writes to me every month. They're having a terrible time.
I mean, they've had COVID restrictions, so they haven't been
able to get out of their cells. Keep going on
to lockdown, so they're all stuck in their own buildings.
They're not getting visitors because of the couple of years
of COVID restrictions where prisoners of not being able to
(17:31):
see their families. They just can't cope with it. So
they're all feeling very isolated, very cut off. I mean,
the last time I suppose is all In, he'd not
heard from his family in over seven months. Doesn't even
know if they're still alive. So you know, they're just
having a really really nasty, horrible, soul destroying time. And
I really do think the only thing that keeps them
going is the fact that they know there's people out
here who are still trying to help them, and they
(17:52):
haven't been forgotten.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
But SUPI canon has a plan.
Speaker 10 (17:57):
I don't know whether we can get a judicial review
and whether we can sue the police to the courts.
We have to look at all these legal mechanisms. But
first of all, I need some evidence with which to
create options. I found out that I could get the
prosecution files, and then they said there was like so
many of them and the court would have to copy
them and give them over, and they're charging a few
barter copy. And I've just like thousands of thousands of
(18:20):
these things. You know, I don't have thousands and thousands
of pounds to get all of them. So I just
said to my lawyer, get what you can. Just you know,
the most important thing is I want all the DNA stuff,
and I want all the witness stuff, because that's the
most important. If my lawyer went down there, and first
of all, he had to go to the prison and
he had to get power of attorney from zorl In
and weigh people. Well, I didn't tell them why I
(18:41):
was sending a lawyer to get power of attorney because
obviously the prison officers read the letters. So I didn't
want the prison officers tipped off to the fact I
was going to start trying to get prosecution files. So
I just said to zorll In, you've just got to
trust me. If my lawyer turns up, you just got
to sign whatever he brings in, like, please, don't ask
questions and just trust me. Well, it took him like
three months to get there, and then Saulin wrote a
(19:03):
letter saying, oh, your lawyer's been in.
Speaker 9 (19:05):
I've signed this letter.
Speaker 10 (19:06):
And then my lawyer told me, oh, yeah, I've got
the power of attorney.
Speaker 9 (19:08):
I'm going down to COASTMOI put in the request and.
Speaker 10 (19:11):
Then weeks and weeks and weeks were passed, and I'm like,
are these guys just ripping me off? Or is the
court just trying to find a way not to provide
me with these documents?
Speaker 9 (19:20):
Like why is it taking so long?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Let's stop here for another break again. We must note
that Zolyn and Wepo have been found guilty in a
court of law of the murders of Hannah Withridge and
David Miller. In an effort to find out more information
(19:47):
about processing DNA samples, Connor reached out to forensic expert
Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
The thinking, according to Sue and a couple other people
we've talked to, is that because the influencer to it
family had when they were taking DNA samples, because they
did take DNA from the Tivichian guy as well, but
they probably just switched his DNA with one of the
two migrant workers in this case is out in so
that the sample that's taken from Hannah's body does actually
(20:15):
match the sample taken from somebody who was likely the murderer.
But because of the haphazard nature of collecting the DNA,
that just the labeling process probably literally got switched. And
this is why I say. Sue has evidence, according to her,
that the DNA samples were stored in the refrigerator in
the bar before they were taken to the mainland to
(20:36):
be processed, so they were also processed within twenty four
hours in supposedly in Singapore. How quickly can DNA be
processed generally.
Speaker 11 (20:43):
Here it's a slow roll because if you're looking, if
you're going to a National police lab here or a
state police lab, it's take a number and get in line.
If you've got political influence, you can bump it up
the line, you know, you can move it to the
headline and get it done really quickly.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
If there's no line, how quickly does it take?
Speaker 11 (21:02):
They could probably have it turned around in about a
week and a half, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So just the test itself is not something that gets
turned around in a day.
Speaker 11 (21:10):
Not most of tom No, I.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Mean, I think that's one of the holes in the
court's case is that the police within a day, maybe
it was two days, forty eight hours, not only collected
the sample, sent it to Singapore to be processed, and
that that's what was used to point the finger at
the Burmese kids. Which doesn't sound like that's something that
is actually possible under ideal circumstances.
Speaker 11 (21:30):
No, it wouldn't be, not that quickly.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Ian Yarwood points out that he believes there were multiple
issues with how the TAIE authorities collected and stored the
DNA evidence in this case.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
It was really painfully obvious to me in July twenty fifteen,
when people such as saw the Chief of Police made
statements to the effect that, I, yes, well, we don't
have any of the original mixed seemen sample that we
know that the killers. In fact, what they had was
like a photocopy. They call it amplified DNA. So it's
(22:05):
just the result of another test. But you know, when
it comes to say the laws of evidence, you have
to rely on what's called the best evidence rule. And
so if you are saying this mixed semen sample came
from these two individuals, you cannot have a photocopy of
the sample. You have to have an original sample which
(22:27):
is available for anyone else to retest. It's not just
a question of take our word for it. So, I mean,
I knew in July of twenty fifteen that the chief
of police was completely full of shit.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Why was he full of shit because he.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Did not have any of the original mixed semen sample.
I've got a tea spoon here that will hold five
millimeters of fluid and in order to conduct one of
these tests on a mixed semen sample. According to Jane Torpen,
who is that forensic scientist, she said that you only
need five micro leaders. You know, micro is one thousand
(23:07):
the size of a milli liter, so you could do
one thousand tests with something that size. But the Chief
of Police was saying, well, it was all used up,
And then later on they were saying, I know the
journalists misunderstood, were still up the evidence. But what they
had was amplified evidence, which is like a photocopy, you know,
and you can't rely on a photocopy. It's like if
(23:28):
I could photocopy your passport, Connor, but you know, with
a little bit of work, you know, I could change
your date of birth and change your name and a
few other things, and so the photocopy is unreliable. You
need the original evidence. That the tie courts should not
have accepted it, but they did.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Connor reached back out to Sue Buchanan about the request
she put in for the prosecution's files in the case
against WAPO and Zoe Len.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Power of Things.
Speaker 9 (24:00):
Yeah, pretty mad.
Speaker 10 (24:01):
Really, it's all going a bit bonkers with the investigation.
I don't think they ever banked on the fact that
I would get hold of the prosecution of files. I mean,
I don't think they ever thought that far ahead. I
don't think they even knew there was a legal mechanism
where I could get hold of the prosecution files.
Speaker 9 (24:16):
I mean they're not they.
Speaker 10 (24:17):
Don't forward think anyway, but I mean, you know, I
had no idea that almost, you know, nine years later,
i'd get hold of those files.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, I mean it's it's pretty incredible and just sort
of recap a little bit. What all you were sent,
what all you've got.
Speaker 9 (24:30):
We've got everything.
Speaker 10 (24:31):
So my lawyer went down to the movie court and
put in a request for the documents, and I was
expecting like maybe a few hundred pages, and then two
massive boxes were shipped up to Bangkok and there's like
twenty seven thousand pages in there.
Speaker 11 (24:44):
Wow.
Speaker 10 (24:44):
The judge said, this conviction is purely on this matching DNA,
so that's their a killing skeel.
Speaker 9 (24:49):
So I'm like, send me all the DNA stuff. So
that's what they did.
Speaker 10 (24:52):
I'm like, holy yeah, I have no idea we were
getting the whole you know, kick kaboodle.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
The documents sent to sou Buchanan contained the prosecut Cuter's files,
the autopsies of David Miller and Hannah Withridge, and the
DNA analysis dune Bataie authorities. Everything was of course written
in ENTI, so Sue got them translated into English. She
also contacted a forensic lab in the UK to go
over the DNA test results. Sue has her own hypothesis
(25:21):
of who else might have been involved in Hannah and
David's murders, as its only speculation. We've beat their name below.
Speaker 10 (25:29):
So the report came back and it's not a piece
of shit at all, Like the whole thing's like perfect.
Speaker 9 (25:34):
So they've done a really diligent job on the DNA.
Speaker 10 (25:37):
I've been through all of it, and he sent me
a nineteen page explanation and the DNA that was found
in Hannah's regina was definitely matched the sample from wapure,
So they found DNA on that, so they took that
away and the DNA profile was left matched z all
in right, So there's just no getting around it. They've
done it all properly. And I'm thinking we'll hang on
(25:57):
a minute, Like I've always wondered how they could have
paid off the courts, paid off the judges, paid off
the laboratory, and.
Speaker 9 (26:04):
I'm thinking that's not what happened.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Right.
Speaker 10 (26:06):
All they've done is they've taken swaps from tons of
Burmese people on Kotau, including Waypure and zorl In, and
all they had to do was switch that and put
zoll In in Waypure's label on it, and hey, presto, you've
got this perfect match. So I mean that then all
you've got to do is pay off one copper, right, Well,
hold on.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I want to walk through this because I want to
better understand this as well. And I just as you're
trying to explain this, the sample. The only thing that
matches are the samples correct WAPOS samples, ZELLN sample with
what is in theory found on Hannah. Because the entire
process was contaminated. We don't actually know if the DNA
that was taken from Hannah was actually taken from Hannah correct.
Speaker 10 (26:48):
From what we've got, it looks like it was because
they've matched her DNA. But when I first saw the report,
I was literally having palputations, going, oh my god, they're guilty,
They're guilty, and I was just like wow, you know,
I'm so shocked that it was a good a good
job by the laboratory. And then I suddenly thought, hang
on him, and it's so much easier to pay one
cup on Kotau just that little bit of money. Literally
(27:08):
all they had to do is was find two labels.
Just just put two labels with the wrong That's literally
all they had to do to pull this off was
two sticky labels.
Speaker 9 (27:17):
It's so simple, it's frightening.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Right, and who knows at what point that was done.
Speaker 10 (27:20):
So the only thing I can do now is get
Zorlin's DNA out of that prison. And if it matches
the sample they've used, he's banged to rights. And I've
been barking up the wrong tree for nine years and
I'll go over there and kill him myself.
Speaker 9 (27:32):
Or it means that it's not his.
Speaker 10 (27:34):
And not only is it not his, and the Ties
have fitted him up, they've been in collusion with the
person who actually bloody killed her. Because we've got the
DNA profiles of the two people who were involved.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Like to me, the obvious way that you would stitch
this up would be to essentially take the DNA samples
and just write the person's name who you want to frame,
and this is their DNA.
Speaker 10 (27:55):
Right, because you cannot deny the matches they've got are
in this beautiful.
Speaker 9 (28:00):
I mean, you know, far from doing a shoddy job.
Speaker 10 (28:03):
Like Jane Tawpins said, they've done, you know, miraculously, they've
done an amazing job, like it's it's really is international standards.
But what they can't account for is the chain of custody. Yeah,
those samples match, They definitely matched two individuals, but it
is all in a way pure, and.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Everything we know about the island says that the chain
of custody from what people witnessed who were there, you know,
with the DNA being essentially, you know, recklessly being pulled
and put into beer boxes and things like that other DNA,
but also what we know about the corruption on the
island suggests that the only way you stitch this up
and you fix this is that you just essentially, in
the back of a police room as you're taking DNA swabs,
(28:40):
you you just changed the names. And there's no accounting
for that throughout the legal system exactly.
Speaker 10 (28:45):
But whoever's done this, whoever's done this, I mean their
DNA was in Hannah, so who if they have swapped labels,
the people who've organized that are the two people who
were there. So whoever's DNA sample we've got the two DNA,
soarm whoever they belong to We now have the code
of the Killer. It either belongs to them or it doesn't.
(29:07):
So if it matches, they've conned me for nine years
and they really are the killers. If it doesn't match it,
then Thailand's screwed because not only have they fitted those
boys up, they've taken the DNA from matchual killers and
labeled it as somebody else. There's no gray areas in
this anymore, Connor. It either is the boys or it
isn't the boys, and that's that's it.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, more on that this season. If you have any
information about Hannah Withtherridge and David Miller, please contact us
at producers at katdash studios dot com. For more information
and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat Underscores Studios.
(29:46):
Death Island is produced by Stephanie Leideger, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell,
Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tois Music, ivankor Music.
Death Island is a production of iHeartRadio and kt Studios.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
(30:09):
Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah
Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only
just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the
ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the
bar together around one am. It was the last time
either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning,
(00:25):
on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies.
David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on
the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a
garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy
(00:45):
revealed that David had scratches on his back and water
in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered
in wounds, bruising and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage
and question about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome
to Death Island a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio
(01:10):
episode nine, The Case against way Po and Zouln.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at kat Studios, with
Stephanie Lydecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
After three months of deliberations, the court adjourned, the prosecution
asked for the death penalty, and the fate of Zouln
and Waypo rests with the three judges. Mala, the audio
(01:47):
you just heard was from the documentary Murder in Paradise.
It's one of the mothers standing on the courtroom step saying,
please release my son. Please, My son did not do this.
The judges announced the verdict. ZiU Lyn and Wapo are
found guilty. They're sentenced the death penalty. In our years
(02:10):
of following this case, we've encountered many people who question
of the Thai government convicted the right people for the crime.
We should note that the family of David Miller firmly
believes justice was done based on the evidence presented at
the trial. We should also note that any and all
Tavichian family members have been cleared by Thai officials of
any connection to this crime.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Here's connor So especially what happened in this case is
that the Tavichian family are one of the big mafia
families on this island. They own one of the three
or four areas of this island, and they own Sorry Beach,
which is where all the parties and the hotels generally are.
The very first day, the police fingered Tavichian as the
(02:52):
guy who either did the murder or oversaw the murder.
That didn't land particularly well with Koto's rolling family and
the police that were on the island, and so they
immediately started looking at other people. But the first twenty
four hours the police statements pointed a finger at Tavichian,
but being their place on the island in Thai politics,
they started a massive campaign to take DNA from Burmese
(03:16):
migrants who were on the island working. There were three
Burmese boys who were in the area self and middly
playing the guitar on the beach and drinking. They arrested
all three. One of them worked for the Tuwichian family.
He's released. The other two are in the area. They
get fingered as the guys who killed Hannah and David.
The police drop all reference to Tavichian as the main suspect,
(03:38):
and the police officer who made that announcement is discharged
and basically sent away.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
If Wapo and zal Len are innocent, then who might
be responsible for the deaths of David Miller and Hannah
with Rich. If you remember, there was the quote running
Man video. CSILA is the Facebook group that David A
runs and some of the members had an interesting takeaway
from that video when compared to the video of the
three Burmese on the motorcycle. There are some members of
(04:09):
CSILA who observed that the three men are wearing dark
pants in the video, while the Running Man was captured
on CCTV wearing light colored shorts. Also, there were reports
that David Miller got into an altercation with someone at
the Acbar. Another report noted that Hannah got into an
incident with an employee at the Acbar. During the trial,
(04:30):
there was some more information provided about this. Here's veteran
international journalist Sarah Yun who lived on Thailand for eight years.
She reported on the arrest and subsequent trial of the
Burmese immigrants.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
The nephew of the man who owned the bar where
these two young people were last seen before their deaths.
He was implicated in their deaths by certain people I
understand on the island. I don't know who, but I
know that they'd spoken to the investigating A officers and
suggested that this man may have been involved, and we
(05:03):
got some hearsay information that he and Hannah had had
some level of a relationship, whether it was simply they
liked each other and had been talking or more than that.
And so I was told that he was in the
AC Bar where they were last seen at two o'clock
in the morning on that evening. The police in court
said that they knew there had been a fight in
(05:26):
the AC Bar on the night that Hannah and David
were murdered, and when asked if they had followed up
this information that there had been a fight, they stared
straight back at the lead judge and said, no, we
never followed it up, And he said, why did you
not follow it up, and the police officer replied, we
didn't think it was relevant.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Namsatovichian, who has been formally cleared of all charges, claims
he was in Bangkok at University all weekend and was
not on Cataw the night of Hannah and David's murder.
Tavichian provided a video that shows whom on CCTV cameras
in Bangkok at the time, but there are some who
suggest that there are jumps in the footage and that
(06:09):
the time stamp appears to be altered. One way to
verify I Tavichian was on the island the night of
Hannan David's murder is to check the CCTV cameras at
the dark on Katao.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
There are three hundred CCTV cameras on Kotail. They claim
two hundred were not working. And when asked if they'd
looked at the camera at the dock where the boats
come in and the early morning boat goes out with
five am, which was about two hours after that Hanrh
and David were said to have been murdered and the
potential first speedboat could have gone to Bangkok with the
nephew of the headman, And they said, we never looked
(06:43):
at those cameras, and we don't think that's relevant either.
You know, he was back in Bangkok by nine am,
but it isn't impossible to get a speedboat to Bangkok
by nine am. As the Thai reporters were aware.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
During the very brief period that Vician was considered a suspect,
the Tie police conducted a DNA test.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
On him, and so they did a DNA test on
television of this young man who was only about twenty
four and the police senior investigating officer told the court
that that DNA report had never been released to him
and he had never received anything from the DNA testing
of that young man.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
He said this in court.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yes, in court they said did you test the nephew
of the headman on the island, And the senior police
investigating officer said yes, I did. And then they said okay,
and what were the results? And he said, I never
received it. I was told I would receive a report,
but I never did. And so the judge said to him, well,
(07:46):
did you chase it up? You know, did you try
and elicit yourself? And he said no, And so then
they moved on and the defense did not stand up
and say what do you mean? No, no, Why did
you not do this when it was done on television too?
You know, there's a typee we're asking questions.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Attorney in Yarwood has been following the case
for years. He provides his opinion on the DNA test
(08:26):
that was conducted on Davichian.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Same with Somyach, who was the chief of police from
the first October twenty fourteen, which was the time when
the two young Burmese guys were arrested until twelve months later.
And in that twelve month period, he was going out
of his way to scapegoat the two Burmese guys. He
went to the extraordinary length of appearing in a press
(08:51):
conference with non Sod who's his son, and a warrock
Pan who's the headman. But you know, the chief of
police turns up in a press conference with them and
they do a bit of theater whereby Non Sood gives
a cheek swab or a bugal swab for a DNA test,
but no one else can see what the result of
that test is. There's nothing scientific about it. There's no transparency.
(09:13):
But he says, look, you know, we can prove that
he was not one of the rapists, and if he
wasn't one of the rapists, he wasn't one of the murderers.
I just thought that the convictions of the two Burmese
guys were completely outrageous. It was abundantly clear to me
that they were convicted on completely bogus DNA evidence. It
should never ever have been accepted by the judges.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Scholar David Struckfast estimated and in a given year, the
conviction rate and high courts for certain charges was ninety
eight percent.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
So basically, Thai courts really just act like rubber stamps,
and quite often we find that the judges don't really
understand the evidence. They don't really care about the evidence.
They've already made up their minds where it's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Here again. Connor speaking with Sarah Yun.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
I'm curious when the conviction came down, the ruling of guilty,
what went through your mind.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I got the information and I was angry. And it
isn't an attachment like some people say, like doctors, you
shouldn't get to attach to the story you're covering. It
wasn't attachment. It was injustice, justice, enormous sense of injustice
that this is not right, something is not right. I
was so angry that people could sit in court and
(10:33):
say these outrageous things that made it so clear that
what they claimed had happened was not the case, and
then that the court could convict. I remember my family
saying to me, you know, oh, come on, you know
that there's no justice in this world. You know that's normal,
And it was like, but it was bare faced injustice
it was so bare faced.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
After the verdict was announced, David Miller's brother give a
statement to the press.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Yes, we believe that after a difficult start, the Royal
type Police conducted a methodical and thorough investigation, having listened
carefully to all the evidence, and despite what their lawyers say,
it is our opinion that the evidence against Wapo and
Zorlin is absolutely overwhelming. They raped to satisfy their selfish
(11:25):
desires and murdered to cover up that fact. They have
shown no remorse during the trial.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
Again, Ian your word, Ian Miller and Sue Miller. Appearance
of David Miller. They and their surviving son, Michael. You know,
they came out on the steps of the Samui Provincial
Court after the two Burmese guys were convicted of murder,
and Michael delivered a well it It was a very
(11:54):
sort of powerful speech and he was actually heavily praising
the world type police for their investigation.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
And mister Miller has worked internationally for all his career,
so I know that he knew what was being said
was the same as what I was hearing. And at
one point he said to me, I just want someone
to be guilty.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Wait on hold on, you had a conversation with mister Miller.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
We did have a conversation. I went to the end
of the balcony with him outside the courtroom and I said, look,
you heard what I've heard. You must understand that the
case does not support the conviction of these two boys.
I'm not saying they're not guilty. I don't know, but
this case does not support the conviction.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I'm curious. Have there been other cases in Thailand where
Burmese workers were sort of scapegoaded and blamed for something,
whether it's murder, rape, theft, whatever. Is that something that
has happened in Thailand before?
Speaker 7 (12:48):
Yes, it happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Phil Robertson is the director of Human Rights Watch Asia.
Speaker 8 (12:58):
There's always a scapegoat of migrant workers. There's been cases
where migrant workers were blamed for rapes of Thai women
when it turned out that, in fact, you know, the
son of a politician was doing it, a Thai politician.
You know, all these things are happening, they're really rapidly
hushed up. The migrant workers themselves. If they're hauled into court,
oftentimes they don't have access to proceedings in their own language.
Speaker 7 (13:21):
So if they don't speak Thai or don't understand enough Thai,
they really don't know what's going on. Oftentimes they don't
have access to legal services, they don't know what their
rights are.
Speaker 8 (13:32):
So you know, it is not much justice for migrant
workers in Thailand. That's the reality of it.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Waypo and Zelin then appealed the verdict.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
What happened was that there was an appeal and the
appeal went before the same judges who settle on the
original trial, so of course they came up with the
same result. And then it was appealed further to the
Supreme Court of Thai. Lang whig is they took court.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
The Supreme Court of Thailand upheld the verdict of the
lower courts. Author and journalist sub Buchanan lived on Thailand
for years and wrote the book The Curse of the Turtle,
The true story of Thailand's backpacker murders.
Speaker 9 (14:12):
You were allowed to appeals.
Speaker 10 (14:13):
They had their first appeal to Regionate, which is basically
the same crew that gave them the death penalty in
the first place. We held out some hope for the
Supreme Court appeal in Bangkok because they have been known
to exonerate people who lost their first appeal, but they
lost that one, then their last option was to appeal
to the king for a pardon, which they did and
he never got back to them again.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Sarah Yun, there are.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
A few cases in your journalistic life that really really
get to you and continue to affect you and upset
you for years to come. Obviously disasters and bombings and
things they do that that this case really really really
upset me and made me feel guilty because my son
(14:57):
was the same age as Wi Piones all In and
what was said in court was so clear of a
failed investigation or a deliberately failed investigation. And these two
boys are still sitting in prison. And I worry about
two things. One thing I worry is that the international
press jumped on it so quickly that we made them
(15:18):
too hot to handle. So we made it impossible for
them to treat these two boys as escapegoat, which I
believe they were, and then just like let them go
off back to Burma and keep quiet and don't say anything.
And I fear that we made it too well known
for them to do that, and I know that they
have done that in the past by letting prisoners go
back to Burma and two. I know that if my
(15:38):
son had been in that situation and had been put
in that prison, I'd raised the prison to the ground
personally to get them out. And I don't feel like
I've done enough for those two young men. You know,
their lives are ruined, and if they are innocent, then
I feel an enormous personal guilt, more for them than
any other trial I've ever covered or any other place
I've ever been. I think that it would be so
(16:01):
so good if there was a possibility of finding out
who is behind these events on Kotau, and if whatever
was found out could possibly free these two men if
they're innocent. But I believe that the deception goes higher
than just the police force. I believe it goes much
much higher because escape that was required and these two
(16:23):
were chosen. But every day, every day I think about them,
and every day I think I should have done more.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
In twenty twenty, the Royal tai King commuted Wapo and
Zaln's death sentences to life in prison.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Zelen and Wapo are in prison. Their sentence has been
commuted from death to life.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Is there any appeals left? Are they done? Are they
just sort of their left for the.
Speaker 9 (16:50):
Rest of their lives. They're done. There's no legal avenue now.
Speaker 10 (16:53):
The only option is to prove someone else did it,
and even then I don't know how you'd reopen the case.
Speaker 9 (16:58):
It's finished. It's done.
Speaker 10 (16:59):
They're in prison for the their lives unless the King
gives them more amnesties.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
How are they doing right now? I know you occasionally
change letter or exchange letters with them. What is their
situation right now?
Speaker 10 (17:09):
I'm in touch with zill In regularly, and every second
Sunday I write a very long letter to him, and
he writes to me every month. They're having a terrible time.
I mean, they've had COVID restrictions, so they haven't been
able to get out of their cells. Keep going on
to lockdown, so they're all stuck in their own buildings.
They're not getting visitors because of the couple of years
of COVID restrictions where prisoners of not being able to
(17:31):
see their families. They just can't cope with it. So
they're all feeling very isolated, very cut off. I mean,
the last time I suppose is all In, he'd not
heard from his family in over seven months. Doesn't even
know if they're still alive. So you know, they're just
having a really really nasty, horrible, soul destroying time. And
I really do think the only thing that keeps them
going is the fact that they know there's people out
here who are still trying to help them, and they
(17:52):
haven't been forgotten.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
But SUPI canon has a plan.
Speaker 10 (17:57):
I don't know whether we can get a judicial review
and whether we can sue the police to the courts.
We have to look at all these legal mechanisms. But
first of all, I need some evidence with which to
create options. I found out that I could get the
prosecution files, and then they said there was like so
many of them and the court would have to copy
them and give them over, and they're charging a few
barter copy. And I've just like thousands of thousands of
(18:20):
these things. You know, I don't have thousands and thousands
of pounds to get all of them. So I just
said to my lawyer, get what you can. Just you know,
the most important thing is I want all the DNA stuff,
and I want all the witness stuff, because that's the
most important. If my lawyer went down there, and first
of all, he had to go to the prison and
he had to get power of attorney from zorl In
and weigh people. Well, I didn't tell them why I
(18:41):
was sending a lawyer to get power of attorney because
obviously the prison officers read the letters. So I didn't
want the prison officers tipped off to the fact I
was going to start trying to get prosecution files. So
I just said to zorll In, you've just got to
trust me. If my lawyer turns up, you just got
to sign whatever he brings in, like, please, don't ask
questions and just trust me. Well, it took him like
three months to get there, and then Saulin wrote a
(19:03):
letter saying, oh, your lawyer's been in.
Speaker 9 (19:05):
I've signed this letter.
Speaker 10 (19:06):
And then my lawyer told me, oh, yeah, I've got
the power of attorney.
Speaker 9 (19:08):
I'm going down to COASTMOI put in the request and.
Speaker 10 (19:11):
Then weeks and weeks and weeks were passed, and I'm like,
are these guys just ripping me off? Or is the
court just trying to find a way not to provide
me with these documents?
Speaker 9 (19:20):
Like why is it taking so long?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Let's stop here for another break again. We must note
that Zolyn and Wepo have been found guilty in a
court of law of the murders of Hannah Withridge and
David Miller. In an effort to find out more information
(19:47):
about processing DNA samples, Connor reached out to forensic expert
Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
The thinking, according to Sue and a couple other people
we've talked to, is that because the influencer to it
family had when they were taking DNA samples, because they
did take DNA from the Tivichian guy as well, but
they probably just switched his DNA with one of the
two migrant workers in this case is out in so
that the sample that's taken from Hannah's body does actually
(20:15):
match the sample taken from somebody who was likely the murderer.
But because of the haphazard nature of collecting the DNA,
that just the labeling process probably literally got switched. And
this is why I say. Sue has evidence, according to her,
that the DNA samples were stored in the refrigerator in
the bar before they were taken to the mainland to
(20:36):
be processed, so they were also processed within twenty four
hours in supposedly in Singapore. How quickly can DNA be
processed generally.
Speaker 11 (20:43):
Here it's a slow roll because if you're looking, if
you're going to a National police lab here or a
state police lab, it's take a number and get in line.
If you've got political influence, you can bump it up
the line, you know, you can move it to the
headline and get it done really quickly.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
If there's no line, how quickly does it take?
Speaker 11 (21:02):
They could probably have it turned around in about a
week and a half, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So just the test itself is not something that gets
turned around in a day.
Speaker 11 (21:10):
Not most of tom No, I.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Mean, I think that's one of the holes in the
court's case is that the police within a day, maybe
it was two days, forty eight hours, not only collected
the sample, sent it to Singapore to be processed, and
that that's what was used to point the finger at
the Burmese kids. Which doesn't sound like that's something that
is actually possible under ideal circumstances.
Speaker 11 (21:30):
No, it wouldn't be, not that quickly.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Ian Yarwood points out that he believes there were multiple
issues with how the TAIE authorities collected and stored the
DNA evidence in this case.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
It was really painfully obvious to me in July twenty fifteen,
when people such as saw the Chief of Police made
statements to the effect that, I, yes, well, we don't
have any of the original mixed seemen sample that we
know that the killers. In fact, what they had was
like a photocopy. They call it amplified DNA. So it's
(22:05):
just the result of another test. But you know, when
it comes to say the laws of evidence, you have
to rely on what's called the best evidence rule. And
so if you are saying this mixed semen sample came
from these two individuals, you cannot have a photocopy of
the sample. You have to have an original sample which
(22:27):
is available for anyone else to retest. It's not just
a question of take our word for it. So, I mean,
I knew in July of twenty fifteen that the chief
of police was completely full of shit.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Why was he full of shit because he.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
Did not have any of the original mixed semen sample.
I've got a tea spoon here that will hold five
millimeters of fluid and in order to conduct one of
these tests on a mixed semen sample. According to Jane Torpen,
who is that forensic scientist, she said that you only
need five micro leaders. You know, micro is one thousand
(23:07):
the size of a milli liter, so you could do
one thousand tests with something that size. But the Chief
of Police was saying, well, it was all used up,
And then later on they were saying, I know the
journalists misunderstood, were still up the evidence. But what they
had was amplified evidence, which is like a photocopy, you know,
and you can't rely on a photocopy. It's like if
(23:28):
I could photocopy your passport, Connor, but you know, with
a little bit of work, you know, I could change
your date of birth and change your name and a
few other things, and so the photocopy is unreliable. You
need the original evidence. That the tie courts should not
have accepted it, but they did.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Connor reached back out to Sue Buchanan about the request
she put in for the prosecution's files in the case
against WAPO and Zoe Len.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Power of Things.
Speaker 9 (24:00):
Yeah, pretty mad.
Speaker 10 (24:01):
Really, it's all going a bit bonkers with the investigation.
I don't think they ever banked on the fact that
I would get hold of the prosecution of files. I mean,
I don't think they ever thought that far ahead. I
don't think they even knew there was a legal mechanism
where I could get hold of the prosecution files.
Speaker 9 (24:16):
I mean they're not they.
Speaker 10 (24:17):
Don't forward think anyway, but I mean, you know, I
had no idea that almost, you know, nine years later,
i'd get hold of those files.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, I mean it's it's pretty incredible and just sort
of recap a little bit. What all you were sent,
what all you've got.
Speaker 9 (24:30):
We've got everything.
Speaker 10 (24:31):
So my lawyer went down to the movie court and
put in a request for the documents, and I was
expecting like maybe a few hundred pages, and then two
massive boxes were shipped up to Bangkok and there's like
twenty seven thousand pages in there.
Speaker 11 (24:44):
Wow.
Speaker 10 (24:44):
The judge said, this conviction is purely on this matching DNA,
so that's their a killing skeel.
Speaker 9 (24:49):
So I'm like, send me all the DNA stuff. So
that's what they did.
Speaker 10 (24:52):
I'm like, holy yeah, I have no idea we were
getting the whole you know, kick kaboodle.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
The documents sent to sou Buchanan contained the prosecut Cuter's files,
the autopsies of David Miller and Hannah Withridge, and the
DNA analysis dune Bataie authorities. Everything was of course written
in ENTI, so Sue got them translated into English. She
also contacted a forensic lab in the UK to go
over the DNA test results. Sue has her own hypothesis
(25:21):
of who else might have been involved in Hannah and
David's murders, as its only speculation. We've beat their name below.
Speaker 10 (25:29):
So the report came back and it's not a piece
of shit at all, Like the whole thing's like perfect.
Speaker 9 (25:34):
So they've done a really diligent job on the DNA.
Speaker 10 (25:37):
I've been through all of it, and he sent me
a nineteen page explanation and the DNA that was found
in Hannah's regina was definitely matched the sample from wapure,
So they found DNA on that, so they took that
away and the DNA profile was left matched z all
in right, So there's just no getting around it. They've
done it all properly. And I'm thinking we'll hang on
(25:57):
a minute, Like I've always wondered how they could have
paid off the courts, paid off the judges, paid off
the laboratory, and.
Speaker 9 (26:04):
I'm thinking that's not what happened.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Right.
Speaker 10 (26:06):
All they've done is they've taken swaps from tons of
Burmese people on Kotau, including Waypure and zorl In, and
all they had to do was switch that and put
zoll In in Waypure's label on it, and hey, presto, you've
got this perfect match. So I mean that then all
you've got to do is pay off one copper, right, Well,
hold on.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I want to walk through this because I want to
better understand this as well. And I just as you're
trying to explain this, the sample. The only thing that
matches are the samples correct WAPOS samples, ZELLN sample with
what is in theory found on Hannah. Because the entire
process was contaminated. We don't actually know if the DNA
that was taken from Hannah was actually taken from Hannah correct.
Speaker 10 (26:48):
From what we've got, it looks like it was because
they've matched her DNA. But when I first saw the report,
I was literally having palputations, going, oh my god, they're guilty,
They're guilty, and I was just like wow, you know,
I'm so shocked that it was a good a good
job by the laboratory. And then I suddenly thought, hang
on him, and it's so much easier to pay one
cup on Kotau just that little bit of money. Literally
(27:08):
all they had to do is was find two labels.
Just just put two labels with the wrong That's literally
all they had to do to pull this off was
two sticky labels.
Speaker 9 (27:17):
It's so simple, it's frightening.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Right, and who knows at what point that was done.
Speaker 10 (27:20):
So the only thing I can do now is get
Zorlin's DNA out of that prison. And if it matches
the sample they've used, he's banged to rights. And I've
been barking up the wrong tree for nine years and
I'll go over there and kill him myself.
Speaker 9 (27:32):
Or it means that it's not his.
Speaker 10 (27:34):
And not only is it not his, and the Ties
have fitted him up, they've been in collusion with the
person who actually bloody killed her. Because we've got the
DNA profiles of the two people who were involved.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Like to me, the obvious way that you would stitch
this up would be to essentially take the DNA samples
and just write the person's name who you want to frame,
and this is their DNA.
Speaker 10 (27:55):
Right, because you cannot deny the matches they've got are
in this beautiful.
Speaker 9 (28:00):
I mean, you know, far from doing a shoddy job.
Speaker 10 (28:03):
Like Jane Tawpins said, they've done, you know, miraculously, they've
done an amazing job, like it's it's really is international standards.
But what they can't account for is the chain of custody. Yeah,
those samples match, They definitely matched two individuals, but it
is all in a way pure, and.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Everything we know about the island says that the chain
of custody from what people witnessed who were there, you know,
with the DNA being essentially, you know, recklessly being pulled
and put into beer boxes and things like that other DNA,
but also what we know about the corruption on the
island suggests that the only way you stitch this up
and you fix this is that you just essentially, in
the back of a police room as you're taking DNA swabs,
(28:40):
you you just changed the names. And there's no accounting
for that throughout the legal system exactly.
Speaker 10 (28:45):
But whoever's done this, whoever's done this, I mean their
DNA was in Hannah, so who if they have swapped labels,
the people who've organized that are the two people who
were there. So whoever's DNA sample we've got the two DNA,
soarm whoever they belong to We now have the code
of the Killer. It either belongs to them or it doesn't.
(29:07):
So if it matches, they've conned me for nine years
and they really are the killers. If it doesn't match it,
then Thailand's screwed because not only have they fitted those
boys up, they've taken the DNA from matchual killers and
labeled it as somebody else. There's no gray areas in
this anymore, Connor. It either is the boys or it
isn't the boys, and that's that's it.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, more on that this season. If you have any
information about Hannah Withtherridge and David Miller, please contact us
at producers at katdash studios dot com. For more information
and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat Underscores Studios.
(29:46):
Death Island is produced by Stephanie Leideger, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell,
Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tois Music, ivankor Music.
Death Island is a production of iHeartRadio and kt Studios.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
(30:09):
Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Conor Powell
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