April 18, 2024 • 59 mins
Denise Hamilton, is a workplace culture expert and author of the book 'Indivisible', joins the Deeply Well Podcast to discuss the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the workplace. She emphasizes the need to create spaces where everyone can bring their gifts and talents without unnecessary barriers. Hamilton challenges the current notions of DEI and advocates for a higher goal of indivisibility, where communities, workplaces, and relationships are built on inclusivity and equality. She addresses the blowback and resistance to DEI, attributing it to fear, loss, and the challenge of letting go of preconceived notions.
Hamilton encourages the importance of re-examining long-held beliefs and habits in order to dismantle societal hierarchies and build close-knit communities. She highlights the importance of real conversation, connection, and the examination of stories that no longer serve us.
Connect: @DeviBrown @OfficialDHam
Learn More: DeniseHamilton.co
Read: INDIVISBLE - How to Forge Our Differences into a Stronger Future
Previous Episode: Unlimiting Yourself with Denise Hamilton
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hold it.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again deep in heale hold release, repeating
(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I
(01:23):
am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
This is where we heal, this is where we become.
Thank you for joining this show. Feel so good to
(02:04):
be here.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
This week.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
We are going to have such an expansive and timely
conversation in a way that we never have on this
show before. And I'm really excited because I feel like
this show is really blending the ways that we show
up and impact in the world, the way we show
up in some of our working spaces, and the way
that we show up powerfully in this very very rare
(02:30):
time of living through multiple paradigm shifts. Can I just
say that one more time, because we really need to
keep grounding ourselves in that understanding, especially as things feel
sometimes all over the place and as We're gearing up
for some really big things that are going to be
(02:51):
taking place in the United States, which is where I'm based,
with the upcoming election and the next quarter and a
lot of the things that have recently been passed and dismantled.
So there are so many ways that I think we're
experiencing these paradigm shifts, and my god, just so many
new tools we need as a society, not just to
(03:14):
manage our own needs, but new tools in a society
so that we can really come back together and find
ways forward. So that is what I'm so excited to
explore this show with an extra special guest, a real life,
dear friend and an absolutely brilliant, brilliant woman who is
a thought leader in so many ways and has been
(03:37):
for so long. So without further ado, I would like
to introduce everyone to Denise Hamilton. Denise Hamilton is a
nationally recognized workplace culture expert. She is the founder and
CEO of Watch, Her work a digital learning platform for
professional women, an all hands group, a workplace culture consultancy,
(04:01):
an in demand speaker and facilitator. She has consulted for
and presented to dozens of Fortune five hundred companies including ge, Apple, IBM, Shell, BM,
and Meta, among others. Her thought leadership has been featured
in Harvard Business Review, Morning, Joe Fox, Bloomberg, SB Newsweek,
(04:22):
and she is a regular contributor to MIT's Sloan Management Review,
and her first book, Indivisible, is available now everywhere books
are sold. Welcome to this show, Denise.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
We were actually I have to remind everyone, we were
blessed with your presence probably two to three seasons ago.
You joined me on the podcast and we had a
chance to really go deep into so much especially that
was happening in that time. So anyone that has not
heard that episode, just within Apple, within Spotify, scroll back
a couple seasons, and after you listen to this one,
(05:01):
please check that one out too, because there's just so
many gems. But first of all, I mean, congratulations on
this incredible body of work.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Ah, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
It's important, right and when I sat down a thought
about writing a book for years, and I didn't know
that I was ready, that I had something important to
say it And this book, I'm really proud of it because.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I speak very.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Clearly in it, very simply and try to give people
the tools to be the fullness of what's possible.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I think there's so much negativity of what you can't
do and what can't happen and what doesn't work, and
we forget so often that we are so powerful and
so capable, and I wanted to capture that in this book.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm going to do a little dip back into the past.
So Denise and we probably first met.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
We don't do numbers.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Okay, it was a time ago, a time long, long ago,
but we were both at the time living in Houston, Texas,
shout out to Age down and I remember, you know,
when we first connected. We were both speakers at this event,
and I think it was like a women's event, and
I know that we were doing it with like a
(06:24):
big brand, and it was a really, really, really special night.
And I just remember the two of us were both
on stage and we just hit it off like immediately,
and then we locked in like for a few years.
And we were both there in Texas and I remember
both of us around the same time and said, I
don't want to date it, but I kind of have to.
(06:45):
I need a timestamp it. But just like no one
listening do math. We This was probably maybe twenty fourteen,
twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen for sure, And I remember at
the time, you know, both of us were doing what
(07:06):
we knew as our work at that time, right, Like,
we were both doing incredibly well. We were both kind
of leaders in our space, and we were doing work
that I think definitely led to success and utilized a
lot of our skill sets and a lot of our gifts.
(07:26):
But both of us were kind of secretly and privately
really diving into so much more. And we had, you know,
these kind of internal worlds and ways that we were
seeing the world and ways that we were interacting with
the world that we weren't seeing anywhere else. And I
remember in that time even I think this is like
right before coworking kind of like became a thing. We
(07:50):
just started co working and we didn't.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I think we made it cool.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
We made it cool. We didn't quite know what we
were building at the time. I mean we did, but
it was still so unknown, right. You know, your focus
was absolutely watch her work, and it was absolutely about
like getting more than you know. This is the way
I experienced it more than surface level advice to people.
(08:15):
And that's what had really started brimming to the surface.
Everything was about like a catchy Instagram name and then
just kind of like reposting a lot of quotes that
were inspiring, and that was like whoa, you know, and
it was like both of us were like yeah, you know,
and I think because we had been so deep in
our careers and lives, both of us were like, yeah,
but that's not really going to get it done. Like
(08:36):
I get it, and it feels motivating and it's giving
people this kind of foe empowerment, but it's not actually
something that drives your life forward or kind of gets
the roots of your work into the ground, into the core.
And so we used to meet up at your house,
at my house, at coffee shops, and at that time,
(08:57):
I was building my first wellness company, which was Karma Bliss,
and I had just become a meditation teacher, and you know,
so we were kind of I feel like we were
living these secret lives, like it was work by day
and then it was this other, these other things that
we were really trying to build and understand and find
the way we were going to get our gifts out.
(09:18):
So we'd be there and we'd be building, and you know,
so it's just it's incredible now we're recording at this
moment in La. It's just incredible to be together, you know,
a decade later and everything that's transpired in between that.
So I have to call that out because I think
(09:38):
it's the thing that's really interesting to me. And we're
going to dive into the book, and I really want
to actually read this book summary, and I have so
many questions, but you know, the thing that is really
interesting to me when I see the evolution of your work,
and especially from Texas, which in the last few years
has really changed legally, right, Like, it's really changed in
(10:05):
a lot of ways in terms of what the children
of Texas can be exposed to in schools, what women
can do with their bodies, how we can make decisions.
And so you know, when when you were first kind
of in those spaces, something that you were doing before
we started utilizing these terms that we now know like
(10:26):
diversity and inclusion, is you were going into a lot
of these spaces that were mostly white and you were
having really hard, deep, evocative conversations with leaders that were
primarily men in these rooms. And so I'm just curious,
you know, as we kind of as I walk us
(10:47):
towards your book, first, tell me a little bit about
watch her work, about your vision for it and how
you started approaching this work that eventually led you into
this entire ecosystem and philosophy and indivisible Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So when I started watch her work, it was really
about empowering women and equipping them legitimately, because to your point,
there was a lot of you go girl, hashtag girl boss.
There was a lot of that energy. But it wasn't
like I slept with John in accounting and he's telling
everyone what do I do? Like nobody had real advice
(11:28):
that was really actionable. And I had, throughout my career
been in all of these spaces where I was seeing
that all the little five steps to do this in
three ways to do that, it just wasn't applicable to
actual success and actual escalation in these different environments. And
so my work really started with helping women to find mentors,
(11:51):
to connect with quality advice, and to learn the real
deal and learn how to navigate the spaces they were
operating in. The more I did that work, the more
I was challenged that I'm really empowering or teaching or
equipping women to navigate toxicity.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
What if we got rid of the toxicity. What if we.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Shifted from the energy of helping you to survive a
space and really started focusing on how do we make
this a space where everyone can thrive? And so I
still have always done work with women, but I really
developed a focus on sitting with leaders and challenging why
(12:34):
are we doing this this way? Are we sure this
is aligned with our values? Are we sure that this
is the kind of space we want to have. Are
we courageous enough to examine the stories that we're using
to make decisions and to direct our activities and just
challenging them, And a lot of closed door sessions, which
(12:55):
I think is really important. I think it's really hard
for leaders to say I don't know. It's really hard
for leaders to say, I'm not sure how to tackle.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
This new space or this new situation.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I'm really good at selling sprockets, but I'm not really
sure what to do with these dynamics of difference and
how to get the most out of the people that
are working with me.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And so I started focusing there.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And one of the beauties of living in Texas and
having a business that's based there is I kind of
feel like the tip of the spear, right. I don't
have the same tools that a lot of people that
do this work have. I don't have a lot of stick.
I have to have more carrot. I have to persuade
(13:41):
people into this space and into these values. I have
to recruit more than in other parts of the country.
I go into a lot of rooms where everybody's arms
are crossed and they are not interested in what.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I have to say.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
And so that skill set of recruiting people into these
values has sharpened. Kind of this toolkit that I wanted
to share in the book because I want people to
not be at war, but to figure out how do
we live and thrive and excel together. And to do that,
(14:21):
I think there's a few things we're going to have
to change about how we interact with each other.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah. Wow, I would like to lead in now to
some of the summary of the book, and I really
want everyone to kind of really sink into this for
a second, because you know, on this show specifically, everything
is geared towards higher consciousness and towards a lot of
the soul work that we do, and you know, we
(14:46):
are spiritual beings. Having a human experience and the human
experience is very challenging right now for everyone for such
a multitude of reasons. But learning how to now navigate
and kind of integrate those two things, your inner spirit,
your inner soul, your inner guidance, and the way that
(15:08):
you can show up in the world and the way
that you can self advocate in the world and build
in the world. We got to blend the two. So
Denise's book Indivisible Again. It's available everywhere books are sold.
Indivisible how to forge our differences into a stronger future.
So this book helps readers unpack their preconceived notions and
(15:31):
reimagine a world that's better than just inclusive. Denise has
always believed in the power and promise of a word
she learned as indivisible. In her groundbreaking debuts, she challenges
readers to move beyond current notions of diversity and inclusion
to build communities, workplaces, and relationships that live up to
(15:52):
that word. She urges us to re examine long held
beliefs and habits and to dismantle higherarchys that shape our
current society. If we want to repair the frame stitches
that bind us together, if we want to build a
truly close knit collective. We cannot settle for our present approach.
It's time to recalibrate and identify a goal higher than inclusivity,
(16:14):
the goal of indivisibility. As a nationally recognized DEI leader,
Denise shares accessible personal stories and offer self examination questions,
intentional action steps, and journal prompts. While the book has
a focus on business and leadership, the lessons within can
transform our professional and personal lives.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Woo woo woo.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
That's the work. So where I'd love to start is
we have been, especially since twenty twenty, specifically hearing the
terminology diversity Inclusion DEI, and it's also coming under fire
in a really big way right now and a lot
of languages being thrown around. But if you would ground us,
(16:59):
what is DEI in the workplace and how does it function?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Such an important question because I think that we underestimate
how invested people are.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
In us not understanding each other.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Right there's been such a campaign of really corrupting the language.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I recently heard someone.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Say that the flat came off of an airplane and
it's because of DEI.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Or the bridge fell in Baltimore.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And it's because the mayor is a dei mayor it's
just become this word that doesn't mean anything, right, And
I think that's done intentionally, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Woke. They with everything.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
There's there's a desperation around stealing the language, because if
we can figure out how to speak to each other,
we can connect so much more deeply. Right, So there's
a there's a effort afoot, and I think it's really
important for us.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
To be aware of that. I really work very hard.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
To simplify my language whenever I'm talking about these topics,
because I want to make sure I'm desperately understood, clearly understood.
So DEI, what it means to me is just creating
spaces that allow people to bring their giftedness into the
(18:28):
environment without unnecessary hurdles or barriers. That's all it is
to me. How do you create a space where the
best dancers can dance and they're not limited or restricted
in any way. I have a recurring nightmare that the
cure for cancer was already born. It was just born
in the wrong neighborhood. So we don't have it. We
(18:51):
cannot afford to waste human genius, human potential, human giftedness.
And so what DEI seeks to do is to create
access points and entry ramps for every single person to
do what they were put on this earth to do. Right,
and any company, any organization, any country is only amplified
(19:14):
by that.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
When we give people a chance to be the best
version of themselves, we all thrive, we all.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Benefit from that. That to me is what DEI is.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And unfortunately you mentioned the backlash, and in a way,
I've always expected a backlash. You know, I believe in homeostasis.
If you remember this from ninth grade biology. When you
have a cell, the cell kind of lets water and
(19:45):
nutrients in, and let's waste and toxins out, anything to
keep the cell average normal regular. Your body does the
same thing. When you're hot, you sweat, when you're cold,
you shiver, anything to keep you normal, average regular. Well,
(20:06):
I believe every system in the world is like that.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And when you are.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Trying to create real, palpable, significant change, you better believe
the forces are going to gather to push you back
to normal average regular.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It takes an.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Almost supernatural commitment to push yourself to do something new.
There's nothing more incredible than someone who's willing to do
a new thing. And so we expected this kind of
pendulum to swing back right. We knew that there was
going to be a resistance and there was going to
(20:45):
be a leveraging of power to push us back to
the good old days. I don't think there are good
old days. I think each generation is given their chance
to write their chapter of this story, and it's.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Our generation's turn.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I'm not interested in going back to chapter three, or
chapter five or chapter seven.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I want to write our chapter. I want to go forward.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
And so one of the things that we all have
to do is kind of fight that homeostatic force that
pushes us back to the hell we know as opposed
to pushing us onto the heaven that we're capable of accessing.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Well, how does DEI function in the workplace, Well, there's
a number of different programs and structures that are leveraged.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
It could be anything from groups like employee resource groups
that are focused on creating solidarity support encouragement of groups
that are underrepresented in those populations. It could be focusing
on recruitment practices, retention practices with There are a lot
of environments and I experienced this in my career several
(22:02):
times where some of these environments are hostile if you're different.
If you know, the first woman, the first African American.
I've been that in almost every job I've ever had.
And so the DEI structures within organizations really try to
support employees that are non traditional for whatever reason to
(22:25):
thrive in those environments, as well as training leaders on
how to best support them, develop them, and make sure
that they're allowing the story to change.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
For example, I work with a lot of women who
are going on an executive track, and you know, can
a woman be the CEO if she's five feet tall
or she has a high voice, or can someone soft
spoken be a leader? Can it introvert be a leader.
There's all of these things, these norms that we've had
all of our lives. Quite frankly, that kind of aren't true.
(23:00):
You are capable of contributing even if you are different
from what the normal kind of prototype is. And so
what DEI seeks to do, in my opinion, is to
challenge and update those norms and practices to make sure
that you can extract value out of every employee. And
(23:21):
it's really funny we act like this is such a
strange thing to do, and it really isn't we saw
it in tech? Right, There was a season where everybody
that worked in corporate if you went to an IBM office,
everybody who was dressed in their suit and their tie
and their starched white shirt and they had their pocket protector.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And as the skill set of coding changed, all of
a sudden, you started seeing people with piercings and tattoos
and mohawks that were working because it didn't matter what
they dressed like. It mattered that they could do the
work and they could contribute their talents.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
So if we can do that, there, can we do
that with these other groups as well?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And to me, that is essentially what DEI is.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Wow, Why is it in this moment kind of being
centered in a way that's so combative for people? Why
is what is the blowback that's happening? And why are
we kind of talking about it and the way that
we are in this moment? Which the date is if
anyone finds this episode in the future, we are in
(24:26):
April twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, I think that.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
My simple answer would be grief. That's not a word.
I'm sure you didn't respect that word, but.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I think that we have a story of how things
are supposed to go, what is supposed to look like,
how the world is supposed to happen, And when people
like me come along and say, actually, this the world
can happen in all these different kinds of I'm literally
asking people to give up their story right of what
(25:05):
they were supposed to have and what they're entitled to
and how things are supposed to go. And even if
it's right, even if it's true, even if it's accurate,
doesn't mean it's not painful. So there's this loss, this threat,
this fear that will you treat me the way I've
(25:26):
treated you? Well, I have a space here. If we
make these spaces truly, what does equal mean?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
You know? And there's a feeling of indictment. Right if.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Someone comes and says, hey, we can do this better.
Do you have the capacity to see it as okay,
let's just improve or do you process it through an
indictment and a failure of what you were doing before?
This conversation is intervention? And so everybody wants to be
the hero of their story, and when they get feedback
that says, you know, you might not be the hero
(26:03):
of this story, or this didn't go exactly the way
you thought it when and you don't, you're not really
supposed to get that just because you think you're supposed
to get that. Those are difficult messages to embrace, and
I think we're seeing a lot of resistance because as
we decenter any group of people, I think there's a
(26:23):
temptation to try to hold on to a familiar experience
of being centered. And so it's it's been interesting for
me as I again, I work with a lot of
populations that are not always glad to see me, not always,
not always fully engaged and committed to this work. And
(26:46):
one of the things that I have to give them
space to do is to talk about their loss and
their fear and persuade them right, really, that's what it is.
Help them to see that I'm not trading my misery
for your misery. I'm trying to say, let's put down
(27:07):
our miseries and let's move to another plane and create
another story and another opportunity for how to see these
spaces and to see our lives. We're all in this together.
There's this weird kind of energy of sitting in one
end of the boat and saying, oh my gosh, look
at the hole in their end, as if you're not
(27:28):
all in the same boat. We move like we're very
disconnected from each other. And what I try to do
is remind people we all are sharing this experience, and
the more we are valuing each other and creating space
for each other.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
The better that experience is going to be. But there's
a lot of fear.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
There's a lot of fear of loss that I think
we're feeling right now.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So interesting because you know, I think there is this
grouping of people that right now like to specifically say like, oh,
you know, why does everything have to be about race?
But then the complaints are literally about race. It's about
but I'm not centered anymore, and other people are having
opportunities to because of their race, but it's because of
(28:16):
your race. It's just like unreal. So one of the
things that I really love is that you're seeking to
create something better than inclusive. You got to break that
down for me, what is better than inclusive?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I think one of the limitations of DEI, to be honest,
has been measurement, right. I think there's a temptation to
reduce values to something that you can put on a
list in a report for the annual meeting. Right, So
you don't really have a true metric. You have the
(28:59):
metric that feels attainable, that's driven by our kind of
like sometimes pathological obsession with immediate success.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
So let me give you an example of what I
mean by that. Let's say I'm gonna measure motherhood, and
I'm gonna give you five metrics for what makes a
good mother. You put a roof over your child's head,
their clothed, they're fed, they're you know, pick five metrics.
You could be killing it on all five of those metrics.
(29:30):
But if you beat your child half to death every night,
you are not a good mother. And so the challenge
that we have is we have settled for a lesser goal.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Very often, it's not really.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
The barriers or the hurdles between us and the bigger
goal that's the problem. It's the ease of the lesser goal.
We can have a pot look for Chinese New Year.
We can have twelve employee resource groups, we can have
great speakers come in and speak on Women's Empowerment Day.
You know, those efforts are wonderful, they're fabulous, but they're
(30:08):
not the goal.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The goal is that.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
We are impacting hearts and minds that we're changing our
direction and our efforts to make sure that these spaces
are opened up in a way that is observable. Right,
And so as we kind of look at how we
(30:31):
approach our work, I guess for me, I wanted to
replace a big value, a big target, a big dream.
And for me, that word is indivisible. Here's a word
that every American school child says. I don't even know
how many times I've said it in my life. It's
in the Pledge of Allegiance, and nobody knows what it means.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, I literally was going to say, and so what
does it mean? Is it like undivided? From me?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
It's seeing the value, the worth, the beauty, the power
of each individual component and that coming together. I believe
if you can be indivisible, you can be indestructible.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
And the best example, like the metaphor that I use
for this, is the human body. The lungs and the brain.
Don't argue which one of us is important. It understands
both are important. Your legs have the strongest muscle group
in your body. They can take you anywhere you want
to go, but you are going exactly nowhere without the
(31:35):
tiny little structures in your ear that manage your balance.
It's not about size, it's not about position. It's about
every single part doing its part and being allowed to
do so as successfully as is within their skill set
or in their capability. And to me, that's a value,
(32:00):
right that we all need to be working towards. And
so it it's not easily measured. I can't tell you
these are the twenty five things that you have to
do and check check, check, check check.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
A lot of people ask me for a checklist.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Oh god, there's a and it's not a no more
he clifts and hacks.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Oh my, it's so it's the templatizing of everything, right,
And I get that. I get we want to win,
we want to succeed, and so tell me the five
things I have to do, Denise, and I'll do it. Check, check, check,
And it's like, there's no checklist. This is a way
to be, This is a way to interact with each other.
(32:40):
This is a way to feel your way through the world.
And doesn't mean you're not gonna make mistakes. You're gonna
you're not gonna have missteps. Of course, you are right
if you care about people then, and you're engaging with them.
People are gonna people, and you're gonna have disagreement sometimes.
But this desire to kind of reduce it and make
it's simple and measurable.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And check check check has us by a choke hold.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
And so when I was thinking about what I wanted
to name this book, I wanted to give us a
better north star, a higher target of what we're here
to accomplish.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
That's so deep, it's so deep in so many ways.
I love the analogy about the brain and the heart
and arguing about who's more important, and it's really just
understanding everyone is equally important and valuable and we all
have to operate in unison for the greater good, for
a bigger goal, for the functioning of this body, and
(33:40):
to what end, Like there's no winning, right, Like if
your brain was to battle your lungs, if we lost
either of those, we're out of here, right, We're gone.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
And you definitely are not operating at your maximum functionality
if you have whole parts of you that are underperforming
or under equipped.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, and that's how.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I want people to think, like, we will all do
better if we focus on this goal, right, instead of
seeing this through a lens of loss and what you
have to give up and what sacrifices you have to make. Right,
Why don't we see it as this is the way
we kind of evolve. And you know, we talk a
lot about AI and how what it means to be
(34:25):
human is literally being redefined right before our eyes.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
And to me, this is so real. This is it.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
It's Do we have the ability to connect with each other,
to create together? Do we have the ability to create
space for human ingenuity to take us to the next level?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
And I think if we don't do that, the.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Machines will out human us, right, And so I think
I want us to really remember what it means and
maybe we.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Never knew, right.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
That's another thing of looking into yourself and really thinking
about how do you think about the people around you,
who's important and who's not? How do you think about
hoarding opportunity? How do you think about the spaces that
are created for us all to operate in? How do
you think about it all? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So I have so many roads I want to go
down with this exact moment that we're at. And one
of the things I just I really feel called to
call out and I would love, I would just love
for you to kind of expand with your philosophy on this,
you know, like what you're speaking to, this this hoarding
of opportunity, this like we are in such a moment
(35:45):
and such a society, and granted, like this has always
been the case, especially for the vast majority, but we're
seeing it now in a way that permeates every moment
of your life because of social media. Whereas before you'd
go to work or you'd go to school, and you'd
come home, so you had all these different pockets of
reality that could kind of balance each other out in
(36:07):
some ways. Right, Like, I'm born in the eighties, so
I remember some of that. I remember some of how
life used to feel. But there is something I think
about so much, Denise, is this culture of validation that
(36:28):
we're in right now, and how dangerous it is, and
the way that I view it is everyone is searching
for what they may not have received from their parent
or authority figure, this idea of unconditional love, this idea
of really seeing you and celebrating you, and now everyone
is requiring it of every person they know and everyone
(36:51):
in the greater world. And it's like this need this
empty void that can just never be filled. Like the
expectation is that everything is you being seen and heard
everything and in the way you want to be and
in the.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Way you want to be, which is a really important.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yes, And that everything is this celebration. And so it's
like even with work and I think about you know,
watch her work here and the kinds of advice that
the deepening of the layers of advice that you have
been giving women access to. You know, we have to
really challenge this idea that we have to always be
(37:31):
supported and celebrated and validated by everybody just because we
want to be. And especially in the sense that I
think so many people are expecting so much more than
even their parents could provide by people that know them
in such small ways, you know. And it's it's really
it's such a validation addiction, and it cannot end well.
(37:55):
There is no way that it can end well. And
I think people are looking for celebration, especially in the
work capacity and the wrong moments, you know. I think
there was to a certain extent, there's a grouping of
people who do need a certain amount of motivation and
feedback to kind of get going right. Motivation and inspiration
(38:18):
are two very different things that stem from two very
different places, and that kind of nourish you into very
different ways. And something that we noticed ten years ago
when we were talking about, you know, that kind of
go girl, girl boss culture that I think really has
done such a disservice to the way we go about
(38:38):
the work of our lives. People want the celebration for
paying the twenty to five hundred dollars for the URL,
for the LLC, for coming up with a catching name, right, like, oh,
(38:58):
I have this vision, and like the is only that
it's a name that sounds pleasing to an ear in
the way we like to hear things right now, right,
And it's like everyone demands that that has the fanfare,
that that is what sets you apart and how you
want to be seen, And it's all perception and none
(39:18):
of it's real.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
What is the work?
Speaker 1 (39:21):
And then how do you sustain the work and how
do you elevate the work and continue to evolve into
all the different things that we're each meant to do.
But it does require something, and very often it is
not really celebrated in real time. I think of all
the greats that have lasted for a century or more
(39:44):
that created the works that we still talk about today,
and almost none of them were knowledged for it while
they were alive. And to me, that serves as such
a powerful guiding force in my own life to just
say and I'm so please, let me just say, I'm
it's so grateful for everyone, profoundly grateful for everyone that
connects with my work, for everyone that lets me know
(40:06):
how deeply my work impacts our lives, Like I thank you.
It means the world to me. But I have to
work from a space where I don't listen to the
praise or the criticism. I can't be moved by it.
And so I'm just I'm so curious because so much
of your work has already been that it's about the
deeper nourishing of whatever it is you people are creating
(40:29):
whatever is their purpose. And so yeah, how do you
feel with all that this tips and tricks, this validation,
this You know, money is a tool, but everybody is
worshiping it and thinking that it means something about them.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
And their worth.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
And I just hear so many people creating these pyramid schemes,
these multi level marketings to pretty much scam and manipulate
people into giving them more money. But what is the work?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
What is the work? And this hole you describe it
so appropriately.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
There is no shortage of noise, there's no shortage of
empty calories that are shoveled at us day in and
day out. And the kind of the biggest tragedy of
it is you don't even know how to listen to
your own voice.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
We don't have any moment of boredom. Remember boredom where
you would sit.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
On a line or stand on the line at the
supermarket and you would just your mind would just go
and you would daydream, and you would everybody's into their phone.
Their tension spans are shrinking by the second, and it's
not even attractive to disconnect and to listen to your
(41:50):
own voice. We've made it ridiculous, We've made it silly.
There's so many people that have so many thoughts about
what you should be doing and how you should be
doing it, and what it should look like and what
the shape is, and you should do it, you should
do this, that that that. Like if if I listen
to everything everyone else said, I wouldn't get out of bed,
(42:12):
Like I wouldn't produce anything. You could just be in
a in a kind of on a treadmill of activity
that means absolutely nothing.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
It means nothing.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
And so you know, one of the things that I
go into organizations, they're so proud and they show me
all the things they're working on and all the activities
and the programs, and I'm like, okay, and I always
ask for a list of things that they were not
prepared for me to ask for. What's the turnover of
women in executive roles in this company? Wow, let's track
(42:47):
during a conversation, how often do the women get to talk? Right,
Let's let's count it. Give me the last meeting that
you did, and I'll watch the minutes of how often
she was cut off?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Or like you know what I'm saying, Like there are metrics.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
That we can really look at that tell you what's
really going on at organization. But like behavioral science, it is,
it is. And it's so tempting to focus on the
logo and the graphics and the website and the outshit
and the photo shoot and it's so easy, but it's like, what, Eva.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
What is the thing that you're supposed to bring to
this conversation? How are you different?
Speaker 3 (43:28):
What is the value, what's the unique perspective? And you know,
when I was writing the book, my friend Joan Ball,
she gave me the most amazing advice. I hit kind
of a like a little roadblock, like a little writer's
block kind of moment, and I was kind of talking
to her and saying like, oh, I have this deadline
and I just feel like nothing's coming out. And she said,
(43:50):
you know, said, Denise, ideas are like fruit. You can't
pick it before it's ripe. Go walk down the street
and look at some trees and pet dog and back
in the grass and literally and let the ideas mature.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
We don't give ourselves space for the ideas to mature
and for the experiences to sit right.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
And the kind of flip side of what you've mentioned
in terms of validation is also the perpetual broadcasting. Everybody
is a broadcaster now, and that's amazing in a lot
of ways. The democratization of access to share your voice
and to add to the greater dialogue is incredible, But
(44:35):
so much of that conversation is one way, and it's
with strangers. The real way you change the world is
with friends, is with relationship, is building taking time to
build an actual relationship, then you can talk to each
other and have some impact on each other, but we're
(44:55):
satisfied with this calorically empty communication that doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Well, our behavior is what fuels our evolution, ultimately right,
and the nuance and the context behind the behavior gets
lost throughout history, so we forget the whys of the house,
and then we just end up in these ways of
being and these ways of communicating, in these ways of living.
(45:30):
The part that you just brought up is something I
think about so often.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Which is.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
This idea of broadcasting and this idea of turning your
life into content. Because if you're turning your life into
content and always thinking of it in terms of content,
you're not actually living and experiencing a life. It's always
a premeditated performance. And if you are always broadcasting out
(46:03):
to people and to what you said, not actually being
in community with anyone the way, And I hear this
all the time in so many people when they talk
like sometimes I'll be at you know, like a beautiful
intimate lunch with someone and they don't know how to
have a conversation anymore. They just know how to talk
(46:24):
at you. They know how to just say things at you,
but there is no space for actual connection, any feedback,
any exchange of thought or dialogue. People are speaking to
one another in a monologue and it is the most
bizarre thing, and it keeps everyone in a silo. And
(46:45):
it's like we're creating a system where everyone thinks they're
getting their needs met because they have some kind of
quote unquote community in terms of people you don't know
are responding to you right or like watching you.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
It's not the same, And it honestly worries me because
what are we losing? What are we missing? And what
are these future generations that have no other examples When
you think of Alpha generation, the littles right now, when
you think of the younger gen z, like the art
of real community and conversation, it truly is dying. And
(47:27):
as AI continues to expand and these you know, metaverses whatever,
all the things like, it's just gonna take us farther
and farther away from our humanity if we let it,
if we let it, if we let it, and so yeah,
so that's just so important.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
What I think we've done is substitute knowledge for wisdom.
We have unlimited knowledge at our fingertips. Right, the fact
that you know how to do something is not going
to help help you to determine if you should do.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
That thing right?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
And so what does it mean? It's really important to
me as I do this work. I'm fifty three, and
I think my generation really stepped back because we were
overwhelmed or outstripped by technology and we felt like, well,
what do I have to tell this twenty five year
old or this nineteen year old because they know how
(48:25):
to do everything. I'm asking them questions? Right, But knowledge
is not the same as wisdom. And the call to
action that I always give to people in my age
group is get back in the game. Sit with the
young people in your lives and have real conversations. Teach
them how to be patient and how to interact and
how to make a phone call.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I had some.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Interns in my office and I asked one to make
a phone call and she started crying, I don't Can
I just text them?
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Can I just email them?
Speaker 3 (48:55):
And I said no, We're going to sit together and
we're going to make a phone call. A million years
I would have never thought that would be a problem,
but that's where we are. And in this broadcast kind
of culture, we lose something incredibly important, right in communication.
I have my story and you have your story, and
(49:17):
if we talk, we have a chance to create a
bigger story, a shared story.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
But if it's just.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Broadcast, I keep my story and you keep your story,
and never the twain shall meet. And so it becomes
noble to be stuck in your stance and firm in
your position. It's not valuable to seek compromise and to
move the ball forward. You get more points, more likes,
the more extreme and more angry and more hostile you are,
(49:47):
And so it's this perverse disincentive to find solutions.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
I had this in my own life.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, right, and you know,
guns or a big issue from me. I believe strongly
that we have to have some kind of gun control.
We have to protect our children. It can't be getting
shot at school. Like what is this argument? And then
I have a friend of mine who lives in Wyoming
and law enforcement is an hour and a half from
our house, and she's like, I need to be able
(50:16):
to protect myself. There's animals, there's whatever, And now I
don't have to give up my story and she doesn't
have to give up her story, but we have to
bring our stories together and find a way forward that
we can do things that make sense. And that is
literally disincentivized in an environment where you get way more
(50:36):
likes and shares. The more dramatic and horrific and obnoxious
you are, the more intransigent your position, the more locked
in you are, the more points you get. That's not
how you move forward, it's not how you build.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
And what do you really get for that? Right? And
I think that's the thing back to validations points that
we've been Yeah, I'm making this whole episode is like
what is the actual value and like what is the
value in your life and in your life long term
when you think of the span of a human life,
Like that piece that you said about just kind of
(51:11):
getting caught up in activity and then all of a
sudden you look and you say, what was actually accomplished
with my life? And that doesn't mean necessarily material or
like worldly success. It's not saying you have to have
this title or this thing as an accomplishment, but like
what shifted in you as a being?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Right?
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Like how did your soul advance? Whose life did you touch?
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah? Who did you save? Who did you help? Who
did you help?
Speaker 3 (51:37):
How did you change the world? How is it better
because you were here? I just don't think it's by
humiliating other people. That's It's a pet peeve of mine
that we have adopted this practice of humiliation.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
We see them.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
They go to a college campus and they find a
little girl with blue hair and a nose ring, and
they stick a microphone in her face and she says something.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Ha ha ha, Isn't she stupid?
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Or they go to a Trump rally and they find
somebody dressed in this wild outfit and they stick the
microphone in his face and he says something ahistorical and
ha ha ha, isn't he stupid? Has anybody ever come
to your position because you humiliated them, because you made
them feel small, or you dismiss them, or you diminish them.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
That's not how this works.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Not how any of this works.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Right, And so this idea, can we put down the humiliation,
the one upmanship, the righteous kind of the self righteous centering,
and can we open ourselves up to engage in actual,
real conversation with people and let the story change, let
(52:51):
it expand, let it become bigger, and our stories they
don't let us go easily, right, they don't. One of
my favorite stories is a Rapunzel and this idea I
was in my forties before it ever even occurred to me.
And if you never heard the story of Arapunzel, She's
a princess, She's stuck in a tower inappropriately long hair.
(53:15):
There's no door to the tower. She helps her the witch,
get in out of tower with her hair. She helps
the prince get in out of tower with her hair.
I was in my forties before I ever asked a question.
Why didn't Rapunzel use her hair to get out the tower?
Why didn't she help herself?
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Right?
Speaker 3 (53:32):
How many stories do we have of weight and someone
will come and save you, sleeping beauty Cinderella? I mean literally,
there's this theme. So what I have to do is
can I let that story change? Can I step into
my power and what I'm capable of doing because a
gift has been given to me for me to do
(53:54):
something with that. And I think it's really hard to
give up our stories because they tell us who we are.
They tell us what the bad guy looks like and
who gets to live happily.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Ever, after they give us order to our lives. But
a lot of our stories.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
Are broken, a lot of them are incomplete, and some
of them are completely untrue. And so the work that
we have is examining them and having the very necessary
courage to let them go when they don't serve us.
You know, one of my terms I have purged from
my life as a black woman, I have to work
(54:31):
twice as hard and jump twice as high.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
No I don't, I'm enough. I am enough just as
I am.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
So we have all of these messages, sometimes given to
us with great intention, sometimes with not such great intentions.
Do we have the courage to examine them and let
them go when they don't serve us?
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Yeah, ah yes. Denise Hamilton, please let's connect with her
on watch herwork dot com and tell all of the
women in your life about this, and please go get
this book, Indivisible How to Forge Our Differences into a
stronger future. Denise, I'm going to leave this episode with
(55:16):
soul work that you recommend in the book. So one
of the things that you urge everyone to do in
your book is to re examine long held beliefs and
habits in order to dismantle the societal hierarchies and build
truly close knit communities. You just give a really good
example of that which absolutely was so real and thought
(55:39):
provoking in the time that that thought first came forward,
right It called out a very real experience of our
elders having to do more jump hot, you know, all
of the things, and life has moved forward, and to
your point, we have opportunities to re examine our stories
and say, like, do I need to still hold this narrative?
(56:00):
So I would like to share with everyone that for
this episode, your soul work that you can kind of
really savor and deepen in as the week goes by,
start examining some of those long held cultural beliefs. On
this show, I often invite you to examine your inner narratives.
(56:21):
Right now. I want you to really look at the
world around you and just start jotting them down in
a journal bullet point style, but really start to look
at some of the beliefs you hold about yourself, about
your cultural background, about how you're received in the world,
about work, about all the different ways that you flow
(56:44):
through life externally, and just start and see what you
come up with, and ask yourself and.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Is this true? And is this true? And is this.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Useful for me? Denise Hamilton dot co is how everyone
can connect with you further and really kind of dive
in into all the things that you were doing in
the world. And again watch your work is specifically the
really incredible community for mentorship in the working world.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
And what's your Instagram?
Speaker 1 (57:11):
How can everyone connect with you? There?
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Official d ham official official d ig and all the places,
all the places indivisible.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
Get that book today, and get that book for someone
in your life as well. You know, this is really
something that's going to be really giving you so many
thought starters, very thought provoking, and so get into dialogue
and actual conversation with another as you explore some of
these themes. Denise, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
Thank you so much for having me. Now, Mistay stay
Stay Stay.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance and does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for
(58:12):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have, connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,
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And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget, please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of
(58:34):
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,
Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath you
heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more
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(59:01):
Black Effec Podcast Network. Don't Forget. We're doing the Podcast
Festival April twenty seventh.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Cannot wait to see you there.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
I'm doing a live show and I have special guests
to announce that are going to be joining me. So Atlanta,
April twenty seventh. I cannot wait to see everyone. Everyone, Everyone,
Take a deep breath in through your nose.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hold it.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again deep in heale hold release, repeating
(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I
(01:23):
am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
This is where we heal, this is where we become.
Thank you for joining this show. Feel so good to
(02:04):
be here.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
This week.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
We are going to have such an expansive and timely
conversation in a way that we never have on this
show before. And I'm really excited because I feel like
this show is really blending the ways that we show
up and impact in the world, the way we show
up in some of our working spaces, and the way
that we show up powerfully in this very very rare
(02:30):
time of living through multiple paradigm shifts. Can I just
say that one more time, because we really need to
keep grounding ourselves in that understanding, especially as things feel
sometimes all over the place and as We're gearing up
for some really big things that are going to be
(02:51):
taking place in the United States, which is where I'm based,
with the upcoming election and the next quarter and a
lot of the things that have recently been passed and dismantled.
So there are so many ways that I think we're
experiencing these paradigm shifts, and my god, just so many
new tools we need as a society, not just to
(03:14):
manage our own needs, but new tools in a society
so that we can really come back together and find
ways forward. So that is what I'm so excited to
explore this show with an extra special guest, a real life,
dear friend and an absolutely brilliant, brilliant woman who is
a thought leader in so many ways and has been
(03:37):
for so long. So without further ado, I would like
to introduce everyone to Denise Hamilton. Denise Hamilton is a
nationally recognized workplace culture expert. She is the founder and
CEO of Watch, Her work a digital learning platform for
professional women, an all hands group, a workplace culture consultancy,
(04:01):
an in demand speaker and facilitator. She has consulted for
and presented to dozens of Fortune five hundred companies including ge, Apple, IBM, Shell, BM,
and Meta, among others. Her thought leadership has been featured
in Harvard Business Review, Morning, Joe Fox, Bloomberg, SB Newsweek,
(04:22):
and she is a regular contributor to MIT's Sloan Management Review,
and her first book, Indivisible, is available now everywhere books
are sold. Welcome to this show, Denise.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
We were actually I have to remind everyone, we were
blessed with your presence probably two to three seasons ago.
You joined me on the podcast and we had a
chance to really go deep into so much especially that
was happening in that time. So anyone that has not
heard that episode, just within Apple, within Spotify, scroll back
a couple seasons, and after you listen to this one,
(05:01):
please check that one out too, because there's just so
many gems. But first of all, I mean, congratulations on
this incredible body of work.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Ah, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
It's important, right and when I sat down a thought
about writing a book for years, and I didn't know
that I was ready, that I had something important to
say it And this book, I'm really proud of it because.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I speak very.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Clearly in it, very simply and try to give people
the tools to be the fullness of what's possible.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I think there's so much negativity of what you can't
do and what can't happen and what doesn't work, and
we forget so often that we are so powerful and
so capable, and I wanted to capture that in this book.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm going to do a little dip back into the past.
So Denise and we probably first met.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
We don't do numbers.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Okay, it was a time ago, a time long, long ago,
but we were both at the time living in Houston, Texas,
shout out to Age down and I remember, you know,
when we first connected. We were both speakers at this event,
and I think it was like a women's event, and
I know that we were doing it with like a
(06:24):
big brand, and it was a really, really, really special night.
And I just remember the two of us were both
on stage and we just hit it off like immediately,
and then we locked in like for a few years.
And we were both there in Texas and I remember
both of us around the same time and said, I
don't want to date it, but I kind of have to.
(06:45):
I need a timestamp it. But just like no one
listening do math. We This was probably maybe twenty fourteen,
twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen for sure, And I remember at
the time, you know, both of us were doing what
(07:06):
we knew as our work at that time, right, Like,
we were both doing incredibly well. We were both kind
of leaders in our space, and we were doing work
that I think definitely led to success and utilized a
lot of our skill sets and a lot of our gifts.
(07:26):
But both of us were kind of secretly and privately
really diving into so much more. And we had, you know,
these kind of internal worlds and ways that we were
seeing the world and ways that we were interacting with
the world that we weren't seeing anywhere else. And I
remember in that time even I think this is like
right before coworking kind of like became a thing. We
(07:50):
just started co working and we didn't.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I think we made it cool.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
We made it cool. We didn't quite know what we
were building at the time. I mean we did, but
it was still so unknown, right. You know, your focus
was absolutely watch her work, and it was absolutely about
like getting more than you know. This is the way
I experienced it more than surface level advice to people.
(08:15):
And that's what had really started brimming to the surface.
Everything was about like a catchy Instagram name and then
just kind of like reposting a lot of quotes that
were inspiring, and that was like whoa, you know, and
it was like both of us were like yeah, you know,
and I think because we had been so deep in
our careers and lives, both of us were like, yeah,
but that's not really going to get it done. Like
(08:36):
I get it, and it feels motivating and it's giving
people this kind of foe empowerment, but it's not actually
something that drives your life forward or kind of gets
the roots of your work into the ground, into the core.
And so we used to meet up at your house,
at my house, at coffee shops, and at that time,
(08:57):
I was building my first wellness company, which was Karma Bliss,
and I had just become a meditation teacher, and you know,
so we were kind of I feel like we were
living these secret lives, like it was work by day
and then it was this other, these other things that
we were really trying to build and understand and find
the way we were going to get our gifts out.
(09:18):
So we'd be there and we'd be building, and you know,
so it's just it's incredible now we're recording at this
moment in La. It's just incredible to be together, you know,
a decade later and everything that's transpired in between that.
So I have to call that out because I think
(09:38):
it's the thing that's really interesting to me. And we're
going to dive into the book, and I really want
to actually read this book summary, and I have so
many questions, but you know, the thing that is really
interesting to me when I see the evolution of your work,
and especially from Texas, which in the last few years
has really changed legally, right, Like, it's really changed in
(10:05):
a lot of ways in terms of what the children
of Texas can be exposed to in schools, what women
can do with their bodies, how we can make decisions.
And so you know, when when you were first kind
of in those spaces, something that you were doing before
we started utilizing these terms that we now know like
(10:26):
diversity and inclusion, is you were going into a lot
of these spaces that were mostly white and you were
having really hard, deep, evocative conversations with leaders that were
primarily men in these rooms. And so I'm just curious,
you know, as we kind of as I walk us
(10:47):
towards your book, first, tell me a little bit about
watch her work, about your vision for it and how
you started approaching this work that eventually led you into
this entire ecosystem and philosophy and indivisible Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So when I started watch her work, it was really
about empowering women and equipping them legitimately, because to your point,
there was a lot of you go girl, hashtag girl boss.
There was a lot of that energy. But it wasn't
like I slept with John in accounting and he's telling
everyone what do I do? Like nobody had real advice
(11:28):
that was really actionable. And I had, throughout my career
been in all of these spaces where I was seeing
that all the little five steps to do this in
three ways to do that, it just wasn't applicable to
actual success and actual escalation in these different environments. And
so my work really started with helping women to find mentors,
(11:51):
to connect with quality advice, and to learn the real
deal and learn how to navigate the spaces they were
operating in. The more I did that work, the more
I was challenged that I'm really empowering or teaching or
equipping women to navigate toxicity.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
What if we got rid of the toxicity. What if we.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Shifted from the energy of helping you to survive a
space and really started focusing on how do we make
this a space where everyone can thrive? And so I
still have always done work with women, but I really
developed a focus on sitting with leaders and challenging why
(12:34):
are we doing this this way? Are we sure this
is aligned with our values? Are we sure that this
is the kind of space we want to have. Are
we courageous enough to examine the stories that we're using
to make decisions and to direct our activities and just
challenging them, And a lot of closed door sessions, which
(12:55):
I think is really important. I think it's really hard
for leaders to say I don't know. It's really hard
for leaders to say, I'm not sure how to tackle.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
This new space or this new situation.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
I'm really good at selling sprockets, but I'm not really
sure what to do with these dynamics of difference and
how to get the most out of the people that
are working with me.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And so I started focusing there.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And one of the beauties of living in Texas and
having a business that's based there is I kind of
feel like the tip of the spear, right. I don't
have the same tools that a lot of people that
do this work have. I don't have a lot of stick.
I have to have more carrot. I have to persuade
(13:41):
people into this space and into these values. I have
to recruit more than in other parts of the country.
I go into a lot of rooms where everybody's arms
are crossed and they are not interested in what.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I have to say.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
And so that skill set of recruiting people into these
values has sharpened. Kind of this toolkit that I wanted
to share in the book because I want people to
not be at war, but to figure out how do
we live and thrive and excel together. And to do that,
(14:21):
I think there's a few things we're going to have
to change about how we interact with each other.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah. Wow, I would like to lead in now to
some of the summary of the book, and I really
want everyone to kind of really sink into this for
a second, because you know, on this show specifically, everything
is geared towards higher consciousness and towards a lot of
the soul work that we do, and you know, we
(14:46):
are spiritual beings. Having a human experience and the human
experience is very challenging right now for everyone for such
a multitude of reasons. But learning how to now navigate
and kind of integrate those two things, your inner spirit,
your inner soul, your inner guidance, and the way that
(15:08):
you can show up in the world and the way
that you can self advocate in the world and build
in the world. We got to blend the two. So
Denise's book Indivisible Again. It's available everywhere books are sold.
Indivisible how to forge our differences into a stronger future.
So this book helps readers unpack their preconceived notions and
(15:31):
reimagine a world that's better than just inclusive. Denise has
always believed in the power and promise of a word
she learned as indivisible. In her groundbreaking debuts, she challenges
readers to move beyond current notions of diversity and inclusion
to build communities, workplaces, and relationships that live up to
(15:52):
that word. She urges us to re examine long held
beliefs and habits and to dismantle higherarchys that shape our
current society. If we want to repair the frame stitches
that bind us together, if we want to build a
truly close knit collective. We cannot settle for our present approach.
It's time to recalibrate and identify a goal higher than inclusivity,
(16:14):
the goal of indivisibility. As a nationally recognized DEI leader,
Denise shares accessible personal stories and offer self examination questions,
intentional action steps, and journal prompts. While the book has
a focus on business and leadership, the lessons within can
transform our professional and personal lives.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Woo woo woo.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
That's the work. So where I'd love to start is
we have been, especially since twenty twenty, specifically hearing the
terminology diversity Inclusion DEI, and it's also coming under fire
in a really big way right now and a lot
of languages being thrown around. But if you would ground us,
(16:59):
what is DEI in the workplace and how does it function?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Such an important question because I think that we underestimate
how invested people are.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
In us not understanding each other.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Right there's been such a campaign of really corrupting the language.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I recently heard someone.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Say that the flat came off of an airplane and
it's because of DEI.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Or the bridge fell in Baltimore.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
And it's because the mayor is a dei mayor it's
just become this word that doesn't mean anything, right, And
I think that's done intentionally, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Woke. They with everything.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
There's there's a desperation around stealing the language, because if
we can figure out how to speak to each other,
we can connect so much more deeply. Right, So there's
a there's a effort afoot, and I think it's really
important for us.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
To be aware of that. I really work very hard.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
To simplify my language whenever I'm talking about these topics,
because I want to make sure I'm desperately understood, clearly understood.
So DEI, what it means to me is just creating
spaces that allow people to bring their giftedness into the
(18:28):
environment without unnecessary hurdles or barriers. That's all it is
to me. How do you create a space where the
best dancers can dance and they're not limited or restricted
in any way. I have a recurring nightmare that the
cure for cancer was already born. It was just born
in the wrong neighborhood. So we don't have it. We
(18:51):
cannot afford to waste human genius, human potential, human giftedness.
And so what DEI seeks to do is to create
access points and entry ramps for every single person to
do what they were put on this earth to do. Right,
and any company, any organization, any country is only amplified
(19:14):
by that.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
When we give people a chance to be the best
version of themselves, we all thrive, we all.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Benefit from that. That to me is what DEI is.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And unfortunately you mentioned the backlash, and in a way,
I've always expected a backlash. You know, I believe in homeostasis.
If you remember this from ninth grade biology. When you
have a cell, the cell kind of lets water and
(19:45):
nutrients in, and let's waste and toxins out, anything to
keep the cell average normal regular. Your body does the
same thing. When you're hot, you sweat, when you're cold,
you shiver, anything to keep you normal, average regular. Well,
(20:06):
I believe every system in the world is like that.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And when you are.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Trying to create real, palpable, significant change, you better believe
the forces are going to gather to push you back
to normal average regular.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
It takes an.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Almost supernatural commitment to push yourself to do something new.
There's nothing more incredible than someone who's willing to do
a new thing. And so we expected this kind of
pendulum to swing back right. We knew that there was
going to be a resistance and there was going to
(20:45):
be a leveraging of power to push us back to
the good old days. I don't think there are good
old days. I think each generation is given their chance
to write their chapter of this story, and it's.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Our generation's turn.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I'm not interested in going back to chapter three, or
chapter five or chapter seven.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I want to write our chapter. I want to go forward.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
And so one of the things that we all have
to do is kind of fight that homeostatic force that
pushes us back to the hell we know as opposed
to pushing us onto the heaven that we're capable of accessing.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Well, how does DEI function in the workplace, Well, there's
a number of different programs and structures that are leveraged.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
It could be anything from groups like employee resource groups
that are focused on creating solidarity support encouragement of groups
that are underrepresented in those populations. It could be focusing
on recruitment practices, retention practices with There are a lot
of environments and I experienced this in my career several
(22:02):
times where some of these environments are hostile if you're different.
If you know, the first woman, the first African American.
I've been that in almost every job I've ever had.
And so the DEI structures within organizations really try to
support employees that are non traditional for whatever reason to
(22:25):
thrive in those environments, as well as training leaders on
how to best support them, develop them, and make sure
that they're allowing the story to change.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
For example, I work with a lot of women who
are going on an executive track, and you know, can
a woman be the CEO if she's five feet tall
or she has a high voice, or can someone soft
spoken be a leader? Can it introvert be a leader.
There's all of these things, these norms that we've had
all of our lives. Quite frankly, that kind of aren't true.
(23:00):
You are capable of contributing even if you are different
from what the normal kind of prototype is. And so
what DEI seeks to do, in my opinion, is to
challenge and update those norms and practices to make sure
that you can extract value out of every employee. And
(23:21):
it's really funny we act like this is such a
strange thing to do, and it really isn't we saw
it in tech? Right, There was a season where everybody
that worked in corporate if you went to an IBM office,
everybody who was dressed in their suit and their tie
and their starched white shirt and they had their pocket protector.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And as the skill set of coding changed, all of
a sudden, you started seeing people with piercings and tattoos
and mohawks that were working because it didn't matter what
they dressed like. It mattered that they could do the
work and they could contribute their talents.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
So if we can do that, there, can we do
that with these other groups as well?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And to me, that is essentially what DEI is.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Wow, Why is it in this moment kind of being
centered in a way that's so combative for people? Why
is what is the blowback that's happening? And why are
we kind of talking about it and the way that
we are in this moment? Which the date is if
anyone finds this episode in the future, we are in
(24:26):
April twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, I think that.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
My simple answer would be grief. That's not a word.
I'm sure you didn't respect that word, but.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I think that we have a story of how things
are supposed to go, what is supposed to look like,
how the world is supposed to happen, And when people
like me come along and say, actually, this the world
can happen in all these different kinds of I'm literally
asking people to give up their story right of what
(25:05):
they were supposed to have and what they're entitled to
and how things are supposed to go. And even if
it's right, even if it's true, even if it's accurate,
doesn't mean it's not painful. So there's this loss, this threat,
this fear that will you treat me the way I've
(25:26):
treated you? Well, I have a space here. If we
make these spaces truly, what does equal mean?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
You know? And there's a feeling of indictment. Right if.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Someone comes and says, hey, we can do this better.
Do you have the capacity to see it as okay,
let's just improve or do you process it through an
indictment and a failure of what you were doing before?
This conversation is intervention? And so everybody wants to be
the hero of their story, and when they get feedback
that says, you know, you might not be the hero
(26:03):
of this story, or this didn't go exactly the way
you thought it when and you don't, you're not really
supposed to get that just because you think you're supposed
to get that. Those are difficult messages to embrace, and
I think we're seeing a lot of resistance because as
we decenter any group of people, I think there's a
(26:23):
temptation to try to hold on to a familiar experience
of being centered. And so it's it's been interesting for
me as I again, I work with a lot of
populations that are not always glad to see me, not always,
not always fully engaged and committed to this work. And
(26:46):
one of the things that I have to give them
space to do is to talk about their loss and
their fear and persuade them right, really, that's what it is.
Help them to see that I'm not trading my misery
for your misery. I'm trying to say, let's put down
(27:07):
our miseries and let's move to another plane and create
another story and another opportunity for how to see these
spaces and to see our lives. We're all in this together.
There's this weird kind of energy of sitting in one
end of the boat and saying, oh my gosh, look
at the hole in their end, as if you're not
(27:28):
all in the same boat. We move like we're very
disconnected from each other. And what I try to do
is remind people we all are sharing this experience, and
the more we are valuing each other and creating space
for each other.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
The better that experience is going to be. But there's
a lot of fear.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
There's a lot of fear of loss that I think
we're feeling right now.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So interesting because you know, I think there is this
grouping of people that right now like to specifically say like, oh,
you know, why does everything have to be about race?
But then the complaints are literally about race. It's about
but I'm not centered anymore, and other people are having
opportunities to because of their race, but it's because of
(28:16):
your race. It's just like unreal. So one of the
things that I really love is that you're seeking to
create something better than inclusive. You got to break that
down for me, what is better than inclusive?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I think one of the limitations of DEI, to be honest,
has been measurement, right. I think there's a temptation to
reduce values to something that you can put on a
list in a report for the annual meeting. Right, So
you don't really have a true metric. You have the
(28:59):
metric that feels attainable, that's driven by our kind of
like sometimes pathological obsession with immediate success.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
So let me give you an example of what I
mean by that. Let's say I'm gonna measure motherhood, and
I'm gonna give you five metrics for what makes a
good mother. You put a roof over your child's head,
their clothed, they're fed, they're you know, pick five metrics.
You could be killing it on all five of those metrics.
(29:30):
But if you beat your child half to death every night,
you are not a good mother. And so the challenge
that we have is we have settled for a lesser goal.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Very often, it's not really.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
The barriers or the hurdles between us and the bigger
goal that's the problem. It's the ease of the lesser goal.
We can have a pot look for Chinese New Year.
We can have twelve employee resource groups, we can have
great speakers come in and speak on Women's Empowerment Day.
You know, those efforts are wonderful, they're fabulous, but they're
(30:08):
not the goal.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The goal is that.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
We are impacting hearts and minds that we're changing our
direction and our efforts to make sure that these spaces
are opened up in a way that is observable. Right,
And so as we kind of look at how we
(30:31):
approach our work, I guess for me, I wanted to
replace a big value, a big target, a big dream.
And for me, that word is indivisible. Here's a word
that every American school child says. I don't even know
how many times I've said it in my life. It's
in the Pledge of Allegiance, and nobody knows what it means.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, I literally was going to say, and so what
does it mean? Is it like undivided? From me?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
It's seeing the value, the worth, the beauty, the power
of each individual component and that coming together. I believe
if you can be indivisible, you can be indestructible.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
And the best example, like the metaphor that I use
for this, is the human body. The lungs and the brain.
Don't argue which one of us is important. It understands
both are important. Your legs have the strongest muscle group
in your body. They can take you anywhere you want
to go, but you are going exactly nowhere without the
(31:35):
tiny little structures in your ear that manage your balance.
It's not about size, it's not about position. It's about
every single part doing its part and being allowed to
do so as successfully as is within their skill set
or in their capability. And to me, that's a value,
(32:00):
right that we all need to be working towards. And
so it it's not easily measured. I can't tell you
these are the twenty five things that you have to
do and check check, check, check check.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
A lot of people ask me for a checklist.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Oh god, there's a and it's not a no more
he clifts and hacks.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Oh my, it's so it's the templatizing of everything, right,
And I get that. I get we want to win,
we want to succeed, and so tell me the five
things I have to do, Denise, and I'll do it. Check, check, check,
And it's like, there's no checklist. This is a way
to be, This is a way to interact with each other.
(32:40):
This is a way to feel your way through the world.
And doesn't mean you're not gonna make mistakes. You're gonna
you're not gonna have missteps. Of course, you are right
if you care about people then, and you're engaging with them.
People are gonna people, and you're gonna have disagreement sometimes.
But this desire to kind of reduce it and make
it's simple and measurable.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And check check check has us by a choke hold.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
And so when I was thinking about what I wanted
to name this book, I wanted to give us a
better north star, a higher target of what we're here
to accomplish.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
That's so deep, it's so deep in so many ways.
I love the analogy about the brain and the heart
and arguing about who's more important, and it's really just
understanding everyone is equally important and valuable and we all
have to operate in unison for the greater good, for
a bigger goal, for the functioning of this body, and
(33:40):
to what end, Like there's no winning, right, Like if
your brain was to battle your lungs, if we lost
either of those, we're out of here, right, We're gone.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
And you definitely are not operating at your maximum functionality
if you have whole parts of you that are underperforming
or under equipped.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, and that's how.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
I want people to think, like, we will all do
better if we focus on this goal, right, instead of
seeing this through a lens of loss and what you
have to give up and what sacrifices you have to make. Right,
Why don't we see it as this is the way
we kind of evolve. And you know, we talk a
lot about AI and how what it means to be
(34:25):
human is literally being redefined right before our eyes.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
And to me, this is so real. This is it.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
It's Do we have the ability to connect with each other,
to create together? Do we have the ability to create
space for human ingenuity to take us to the next level?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
And I think if we don't do that, the.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Machines will out human us, right, And so I think
I want us to really remember what it means and
maybe we.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Never knew, right.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
That's another thing of looking into yourself and really thinking
about how do you think about the people around you,
who's important and who's not? How do you think about
hoarding opportunity? How do you think about the spaces that
are created for us all to operate in? How do
you think about it all? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So I have so many roads I want to go
down with this exact moment that we're at. And one
of the things I just I really feel called to
call out and I would love, I would just love
for you to kind of expand with your philosophy on this,
you know, like what you're speaking to, this this hoarding
of opportunity, this like we are in such a moment
(35:45):
and such a society, and granted, like this has always
been the case, especially for the vast majority, but we're
seeing it now in a way that permeates every moment
of your life because of social media. Whereas before you'd
go to work or you'd go to school, and you'd
come home, so you had all these different pockets of
reality that could kind of balance each other out in
(36:07):
some ways. Right, Like, I'm born in the eighties, so
I remember some of that. I remember some of how
life used to feel. But there is something I think
about so much, Denise, is this culture of validation that
(36:28):
we're in right now, and how dangerous it is, and
the way that I view it is everyone is searching
for what they may not have received from their parent
or authority figure, this idea of unconditional love, this idea
of really seeing you and celebrating you, and now everyone
is requiring it of every person they know and everyone
(36:51):
in the greater world. And it's like this need this
empty void that can just never be filled. Like the
expectation is that everything is you being seen and heard
everything and in the way you want to be and
in the.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Way you want to be, which is a really important.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yes, And that everything is this celebration. And so it's
like even with work and I think about you know,
watch her work here and the kinds of advice that
the deepening of the layers of advice that you have
been giving women access to. You know, we have to
really challenge this idea that we have to always be
(37:31):
supported and celebrated and validated by everybody just because we
want to be. And especially in the sense that I
think so many people are expecting so much more than
even their parents could provide by people that know them
in such small ways, you know. And it's it's really
it's such a validation addiction, and it cannot end well.
(37:55):
There is no way that it can end well. And
I think people are looking for celebration, especially in the
work capacity and the wrong moments, you know. I think
there was to a certain extent, there's a grouping of
people who do need a certain amount of motivation and
feedback to kind of get going right. Motivation and inspiration
(38:18):
are two very different things that stem from two very
different places, and that kind of nourish you into very
different ways. And something that we noticed ten years ago
when we were talking about, you know, that kind of
go girl, girl boss culture that I think really has
done such a disservice to the way we go about
(38:38):
the work of our lives. People want the celebration for
paying the twenty to five hundred dollars for the URL,
for the LLC, for coming up with a catching name, right, like, oh,
(38:58):
I have this vision, and like the is only that
it's a name that sounds pleasing to an ear in
the way we like to hear things right now, right,
And it's like everyone demands that that has the fanfare,
that that is what sets you apart and how you
want to be seen, And it's all perception and none
(39:18):
of it's real.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
What is the work?
Speaker 1 (39:21):
And then how do you sustain the work and how
do you elevate the work and continue to evolve into
all the different things that we're each meant to do.
But it does require something, and very often it is
not really celebrated in real time. I think of all
the greats that have lasted for a century or more
(39:44):
that created the works that we still talk about today,
and almost none of them were knowledged for it while
they were alive. And to me, that serves as such
a powerful guiding force in my own life to just
say and I'm so please, let me just say, I'm
it's so grateful for everyone, profoundly grateful for everyone that
connects with my work, for everyone that lets me know
(40:06):
how deeply my work impacts our lives, Like I thank you.
It means the world to me. But I have to
work from a space where I don't listen to the
praise or the criticism. I can't be moved by it.
And so I'm just I'm so curious because so much
of your work has already been that it's about the
deeper nourishing of whatever it is you people are creating
(40:29):
whatever is their purpose. And so yeah, how do you
feel with all that this tips and tricks, this validation,
this You know, money is a tool, but everybody is
worshiping it and thinking that it means something about them.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
And their worth.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
And I just hear so many people creating these pyramid schemes,
these multi level marketings to pretty much scam and manipulate
people into giving them more money. But what is the work?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
What is the work? And this hole you describe it
so appropriately.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
There is no shortage of noise, there's no shortage of
empty calories that are shoveled at us day in and
day out. And the kind of the biggest tragedy of
it is you don't even know how to listen to
your own voice.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
We don't have any moment of boredom. Remember boredom where
you would sit.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
On a line or stand on the line at the
supermarket and you would just your mind would just go
and you would daydream, and you would everybody's into their phone.
Their tension spans are shrinking by the second, and it's
not even attractive to disconnect and to listen to your
(41:50):
own voice. We've made it ridiculous, We've made it silly.
There's so many people that have so many thoughts about
what you should be doing and how you should be
doing it, and what it should look like and what
the shape is, and you should do it, you should
do this, that that that. Like if if I listen
to everything everyone else said, I wouldn't get out of bed,
(42:12):
Like I wouldn't produce anything. You could just be in
a in a kind of on a treadmill of activity
that means absolutely nothing.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
It means nothing.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
And so you know, one of the things that I
go into organizations, they're so proud and they show me
all the things they're working on and all the activities
and the programs, and I'm like, okay, and I always
ask for a list of things that they were not
prepared for me to ask for. What's the turnover of
women in executive roles in this company? Wow, let's track
(42:47):
during a conversation, how often do the women get to talk? Right,
Let's let's count it. Give me the last meeting that
you did, and I'll watch the minutes of how often
she was cut off?
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Or like you know what I'm saying, Like there are metrics.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
That we can really look at that tell you what's
really going on at organization. But like behavioral science, it is,
it is. And it's so tempting to focus on the
logo and the graphics and the website and the outshit
and the photo shoot and it's so easy, but it's like, what, Eva.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
What is the thing that you're supposed to bring to
this conversation? How are you different?
Speaker 3 (43:28):
What is the value, what's the unique perspective? And you know,
when I was writing the book, my friend Joan Ball,
she gave me the most amazing advice. I hit kind
of a like a little roadblock, like a little writer's
block kind of moment, and I was kind of talking
to her and saying like, oh, I have this deadline
and I just feel like nothing's coming out. And she said,
(43:50):
you know, said, Denise, ideas are like fruit. You can't
pick it before it's ripe. Go walk down the street
and look at some trees and pet dog and back
in the grass and literally and let the ideas mature.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
We don't give ourselves space for the ideas to mature
and for the experiences to sit right.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
And the kind of flip side of what you've mentioned
in terms of validation is also the perpetual broadcasting. Everybody
is a broadcaster now, and that's amazing in a lot
of ways. The democratization of access to share your voice
and to add to the greater dialogue is incredible, But
(44:35):
so much of that conversation is one way, and it's
with strangers. The real way you change the world is
with friends, is with relationship, is building taking time to
build an actual relationship, then you can talk to each
other and have some impact on each other, but we're
(44:55):
satisfied with this calorically empty communication that doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Deeply.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Well, our behavior is what fuels our evolution, ultimately right,
and the nuance and the context behind the behavior gets
lost throughout history, so we forget the whys of the house,
and then we just end up in these ways of
being and these ways of communicating, in these ways of living.
(45:30):
The part that you just brought up is something I
think about so often.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Which is.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
This idea of broadcasting and this idea of turning your
life into content. Because if you're turning your life into
content and always thinking of it in terms of content,
you're not actually living and experiencing a life. It's always
a premeditated performance. And if you are always broadcasting out
(46:03):
to people and to what you said, not actually being
in community with anyone the way, And I hear this
all the time in so many people when they talk
like sometimes I'll be at you know, like a beautiful
intimate lunch with someone and they don't know how to
have a conversation anymore. They just know how to talk
(46:24):
at you. They know how to just say things at you,
but there is no space for actual connection, any feedback,
any exchange of thought or dialogue. People are speaking to
one another in a monologue and it is the most
bizarre thing, and it keeps everyone in a silo. And
(46:45):
it's like we're creating a system where everyone thinks they're
getting their needs met because they have some kind of
quote unquote community in terms of people you don't know
are responding to you right or like watching you.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
It's not the same, And it honestly worries me because
what are we losing? What are we missing? And what
are these future generations that have no other examples When
you think of Alpha generation, the littles right now, when
you think of the younger gen z, like the art
of real community and conversation, it truly is dying. And
(47:27):
as AI continues to expand and these you know, metaverses whatever,
all the things like, it's just gonna take us farther
and farther away from our humanity if we let it,
if we let it, if we let it, and so yeah,
so that's just so important.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
What I think we've done is substitute knowledge for wisdom.
We have unlimited knowledge at our fingertips. Right, the fact
that you know how to do something is not going
to help help you to determine if you should do.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
That thing right?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
And so what does it mean? It's really important to
me as I do this work. I'm fifty three, and
I think my generation really stepped back because we were
overwhelmed or outstripped by technology and we felt like, well,
what do I have to tell this twenty five year
old or this nineteen year old because they know how
(48:25):
to do everything. I'm asking them questions? Right, But knowledge
is not the same as wisdom. And the call to
action that I always give to people in my age
group is get back in the game. Sit with the
young people in your lives and have real conversations. Teach
them how to be patient and how to interact and
how to make a phone call.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I had some.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Interns in my office and I asked one to make
a phone call and she started crying, I don't Can
I just text them?
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Can I just email them?
Speaker 3 (48:55):
And I said no, We're going to sit together and
we're going to make a phone call. A million years
I would have never thought that would be a problem,
but that's where we are. And in this broadcast kind
of culture, we lose something incredibly important, right in communication.
I have my story and you have your story, and
(49:17):
if we talk, we have a chance to create a
bigger story, a shared story.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
But if it's just.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Broadcast, I keep my story and you keep your story,
and never the twain shall meet. And so it becomes
noble to be stuck in your stance and firm in
your position. It's not valuable to seek compromise and to
move the ball forward. You get more points, more likes,
the more extreme and more angry and more hostile you are,
(49:47):
And so it's this perverse disincentive to find solutions.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
I had this in my own life.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, right, and you know,
guns or a big issue from me. I believe strongly
that we have to have some kind of gun control.
We have to protect our children. It can't be getting
shot at school. Like what is this argument? And then
I have a friend of mine who lives in Wyoming
and law enforcement is an hour and a half from
our house, and she's like, I need to be able
(50:16):
to protect myself. There's animals, there's whatever, And now I
don't have to give up my story and she doesn't
have to give up her story, but we have to
bring our stories together and find a way forward that
we can do things that make sense. And that is
literally disincentivized in an environment where you get way more
(50:36):
likes and shares. The more dramatic and horrific and obnoxious
you are, the more intransigent your position, the more locked
in you are, the more points you get. That's not
how you move forward, it's not how you build.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
And what do you really get for that? Right? And
I think that's the thing back to validations points that
we've been Yeah, I'm making this whole episode is like
what is the actual value and like what is the
value in your life and in your life long term
when you think of the span of a human life,
Like that piece that you said about just kind of
(51:11):
getting caught up in activity and then all of a
sudden you look and you say, what was actually accomplished
with my life? And that doesn't mean necessarily material or
like worldly success. It's not saying you have to have
this title or this thing as an accomplishment, but like
what shifted in you as a being?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Right?
Speaker 1 (51:30):
Like how did your soul advance? Whose life did you touch?
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah? Who did you save? Who did you help? Who
did you help?
Speaker 3 (51:37):
How did you change the world? How is it better
because you were here? I just don't think it's by
humiliating other people. That's It's a pet peeve of mine
that we have adopted this practice of humiliation.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
We see them.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
They go to a college campus and they find a
little girl with blue hair and a nose ring, and
they stick a microphone in her face and she says something.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Ha ha ha, Isn't she stupid?
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Or they go to a Trump rally and they find
somebody dressed in this wild outfit and they stick the
microphone in his face and he says something ahistorical and
ha ha ha, isn't he stupid? Has anybody ever come
to your position because you humiliated them, because you made
them feel small, or you dismiss them, or you diminish them.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
That's not how this works.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Not how any of this works.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Right, And so this idea, can we put down the humiliation,
the one upmanship, the righteous kind of the self righteous centering,
and can we open ourselves up to engage in actual,
real conversation with people and let the story change, let
(52:51):
it expand, let it become bigger, and our stories they
don't let us go easily, right, they don't. One of
my favorite stories is a Rapunzel and this idea I
was in my forties before it ever even occurred to me.
And if you never heard the story of Arapunzel, She's
a princess, She's stuck in a tower inappropriately long hair.
(53:15):
There's no door to the tower. She helps her the witch,
get in out of tower with her hair. She helps
the prince get in out of tower with her hair.
I was in my forties before I ever asked a question.
Why didn't Rapunzel use her hair to get out the tower?
Why didn't she help herself?
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Right?
Speaker 3 (53:32):
How many stories do we have of weight and someone
will come and save you, sleeping beauty Cinderella? I mean literally,
there's this theme. So what I have to do is
can I let that story change? Can I step into
my power and what I'm capable of doing because a
gift has been given to me for me to do
(53:54):
something with that. And I think it's really hard to
give up our stories because they tell us who we are.
They tell us what the bad guy looks like and
who gets to live happily.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Ever, after they give us order to our lives. But
a lot of our stories.
Speaker 3 (54:10):
Are broken, a lot of them are incomplete, and some
of them are completely untrue. And so the work that
we have is examining them and having the very necessary
courage to let them go when they don't serve us.
You know, one of my terms I have purged from
my life as a black woman, I have to work
(54:31):
twice as hard and jump twice as high.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
No I don't, I'm enough. I am enough just as
I am.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
So we have all of these messages, sometimes given to
us with great intention, sometimes with not such great intentions.
Do we have the courage to examine them and let
them go when they don't serve us?
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Yeah, ah yes. Denise Hamilton, please let's connect with her
on watch herwork dot com and tell all of the
women in your life about this, and please go get
this book, Indivisible How to Forge Our Differences into a
stronger future. Denise, I'm going to leave this episode with
(55:16):
soul work that you recommend in the book. So one
of the things that you urge everyone to do in
your book is to re examine long held beliefs and
habits in order to dismantle the societal hierarchies and build
truly close knit communities. You just give a really good
example of that which absolutely was so real and thought
(55:39):
provoking in the time that that thought first came forward,
right It called out a very real experience of our
elders having to do more jump hot, you know, all
of the things, and life has moved forward, and to
your point, we have opportunities to re examine our stories
and say, like, do I need to still hold this narrative?
(56:00):
So I would like to share with everyone that for
this episode, your soul work that you can kind of
really savor and deepen in as the week goes by,
start examining some of those long held cultural beliefs. On
this show, I often invite you to examine your inner narratives.
(56:21):
Right now. I want you to really look at the
world around you and just start jotting them down in
a journal bullet point style, but really start to look
at some of the beliefs you hold about yourself, about
your cultural background, about how you're received in the world,
about work, about all the different ways that you flow
(56:44):
through life externally, and just start and see what you
come up with, and ask yourself and.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Is this true? And is this true? And is this.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Useful for me? Denise Hamilton dot co is how everyone
can connect with you further and really kind of dive
in into all the things that you were doing in
the world. And again watch your work is specifically the
really incredible community for mentorship in the working world.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
And what's your Instagram?
Speaker 1 (57:11):
How can everyone connect with you? There?
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Official d ham official official d ig and all the places,
all the places indivisible.
Speaker 1 (57:21):
Get that book today, and get that book for someone
in your life as well. You know, this is really
something that's going to be really giving you so many
thought starters, very thought provoking, and so get into dialogue
and actual conversation with another as you explore some of
these themes. Denise, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
Thank you so much for having me. Now, Mistay stay
Stay Stay.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance and does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for
(58:12):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have, connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,
or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget, please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of
(58:34):
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,
Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath you
heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. Get your tape for the
(59:01):
Black Effec Podcast Network. Don't Forget. We're doing the Podcast
Festival April twenty seventh.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Cannot wait to see you there.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
I'm doing a live show and I have special guests
to announce that are going to be joining me. So Atlanta,
April twenty seventh. I cannot wait to see everyone. Everyone, Everyone,
Host
Devi Brown
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